http://insidelacrosse.com/news/2013/01/17/hopkins-draft
Interesting development. I like that the B1G is being aggressive in other sports. Johns Hopkins is also a great fit on the research and academia side.
This article makes me think of other top notch universities that the B1G might want to look at as expansion candidates. Particularly, I am interested in the B1G developing an international footprint by looking at the University of Toronto and McGill University for hoops and hockey. Both would open up massive markets for the B1G, and really only the B1G can geographically pull off such an expansion to the north. Something to think about.
Very interesting. Really outside of the box thinking. Works for me.
Every one's worried about the big dogs to the South and West, you would go North.
A side to the expansion theories I never even thought of ... very interesting my friend.
JT
Also of interest, the University of Toronto and McGill University are the only two AAU members from Canada.
Neither is in the NCAA. The only Canadian university in NCAA is Simon Frasier (Division II) in Vancouver, British Columbia.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
That could change pretty quickly.
UToronto is a really interesting idea. Pretty large athletic program and a top-rate academic research institute. Though the level of competition is WAY down, and it would be a project to get them up to snuff, I don't think it would be enough to discourage us.
What would be the biggest obsticle is the PR of the move. You think people are peeved by RU/UMD??? Imagine if it was announced that we were adding Toronto! That's why I don't think it'll ever happen, but I would bet that the idea has been floated out there a couple of times in talks.
Cause I couldn't go for three
Why???
To take advantage of that fertile tundra of a recruiting ground?
I never said I was in favor... it's just an interesting idea. I will say this much, UToronto would rapidlly become THE school for Canadian athletics. You basically open up the entire Canadian market. It's not going to happen, but it's an interesting idea none-the-less
Cause I couldn't go for three
It is a pretty good recruiting ground for sports that people on this board most likely don't give a damn about. Like Hockey or Lacrosse.
Question: in how many (if any) "non-revenue" sports does the Big Ten have non-revenue members? As with the Johns Hopkins lacrosse example, in other words, does the conference have other sports with members in only one or two sports?
Similarly, in how many sports are the Buckeyes members of conferences other than the B1G? I know in hockey we're a member of the CCHA, for example.
That's a good question AndyVance. I don't know the answer to that. If you come across a link showing the various affiliations, I would be interested in seeing it.
I want to say Lacrosse is the same way as hockey, but don't quote me on that.
Hockey and lacrosse are the only ones I know of.
Seems to me that as the Big expands, there is no reason we can't incorporate those 2 sports iinto Big conference sports.
I am at a total loss as to why we want to affiliate with random programs. What's next, Cleveland Clinic and U Chicago (again)
It happens in any sport where their is not a Big Ten sponsored conference (minus Pistol where there are no conferences):
Men's Volleyball - MIVA
Men's Hockey - CCHA (thought that will change with B1G Hockey forms)
Women's Hockey - WCHA
Men's Lacrosse - ECAC (UM, UMD, RU, and PSU have teams... and JH and you have a league)
Women's Lacrosse - ALC
Rifle - WIRC
Fencing - Midwest Conference
Also keep in mind that in some of these sports (Hockey, Volleyball, and Lacrosse) that we are currently in different conferences than our B1G bretheren.
Cause I couldn't go for three
Just an FYI...I work with a lacrosse coach and with the addition of Rutgers and Maryland (in 2014) the BIG will have its own conference because it has 5 teams..Us, PSU, scUM and those two. Maryland lacrosse actually makes money for the athletic dept. and if we can add JHU then maybe just maybe the BIG becomes a really good lacrosse conference with revenue coming from it.
That makes no sense. You have to have 6 teams to get an auto-bid to the tournament. There is no way that anyone besides UMD (who is consistently good enough to make the tournament on a regular basis without an auto-bid) would agree to that until a 6th team is added. Same reason why the B1G didn't for a hockey conference until PSU moved to D1, and hockey even has a bunch of programs that would not be worried about a lack of an auto-bid (UM, MSU, Minn).
I don't mean to doubt your source, but it would REALLY surprise me if a B1G lacrosse league forms without 6 teams.
Cause I couldn't go for three
Just so you know, Minnesota and others are coming over to the ccha to form a big ten conference for hockey. Which is a great thing.
I know.... which is why I put the note in the part of my post...
Wisc and Minn from the WCHA plus MSU, UM, tOSU from the CCHA and PSU (who is independent in their first season). The CCHA won't exist anymore as the teams will either go to the WCHA (Alaska, NMU, LSSU) or were part of forming a brand new conference (name is escaping me, but includes Miami, BGSU, WMU, ND).
Cause I couldn't go for three
Look to the future... if the conference already has five teams (listed by the previous commenter), the addition of at least one, if not two of the four current ACC lacrosse teams would be more than enough to reach the six-team threshold.
When Delaney raids the ACC (as I think he'll do soon), consider this ACC PR piece from last year's NCAA Lacrosse Tourney:
Maryland, by the way, was National Runner-Up when the dust settled from the tournament.
EDIT: I may have been confusing the above comments on six teams with hockey, rather than lacrosse. I'm still confused, but my point is that launching a B1G lacrosse effort makes sense in the context of raiding the ACC.
It is a requirement for all sports. You must have 6 active members to get an auto-bid to the NCAA tournament.
If we lure the ACC teams the B1G lacrosse would automatically become the premiere league. The ACC doesn't have an auto-bid, but they are all so good that they get auto-bids basically every year.
Cause I couldn't go for three
C'mon AndyVance.
I love lacrosse, but we may as well be talking about raiding Wellesley and Vassar for field hockey for the amount of revenue it brings in.
Truth is lacrosse is a problem because of Title IX because of the expense and more importantly the mens scholarships thrown at it. This is why it is no longer a national college sport. There is one (1) quality D1 program west of the Mississippi and that is the University of Denver!?!
I'd bet that every program in the country loses money.
I would love if the Big Ten Network used lacrosse instead of wrestling and volleyball for middle-of-the-night filler, but that's about the end of lacrosse in terms of what it could do for the Big.
Let's be clear, I wasn't up in the wee hours this morning advocating the B1G go whole-hog into a lacrosse movement, but when you read these various tea leaves, I'd say if the conference says it's making a foray into lacrosse, then it's a good sign we're ready to plunder the ACC given that some of those schools are fairly fond of the sport.
Plus, given that we're not attracting Ivy-quality students at Ohio State academically, it makes sense that we'd want to have a strong lacrosse program to recruit those kids and their out of state tuition (and wealthy donor parents) instead of letting them go to the aforementioned Wellesleys or Vassars.
And I agree with your point about Title IX, but at "upper crust" schools, it's a viable sport because moneyed east coast kids play. And the Big Ten is clearly keen on attracting moneyed east coasters.
Understood.
Big 10 will not go at lacrosse whole hog because of Title IX. Only tOSU (and now UM) has the revenue to start programs that lose money and require starting 1 or 2 women's programs to balance the Title IX scholarships.
Our program is pretty strong. My nephew was recruited to play there with about half a scholarship offered. Less than half the kids are on a full ride. The others (let's call them Timmons for shorthand) are happy to be there, and it provides good depth.
Met a business owner from Harrisburg, Pa., last year, and in the course of getting to know one another, he mentioned that his daughter had been recruited to play lacrosse at Bucknell. Knowing very little about the sport or recruitment therein, it was a fascinating conversation.
Bottom line, this was an upper-middle class/lower-upper class type family who had literally traveled all across the country to watch their daughter play on traveling teams and in tournaments, just like football and basketball, and they were preparing to spend massive amounts of cash to send their little girl to a very expensive school just so she could play lacrosse there...
Think they wouldn't have rather paid in-state tuition for her to play at Penn State? I agree with you completely about Title IX, and I don't want to see the conference get into a tail wagging dog scenario with one-sport members and such, but I think there are advantages to the B1G having a good lacrosse presence.
Interestingly enough, women's lacrosse is a much more attractive DI sport as the flip side of the Title IX coin. In the west, those schools that wanted to keep baseball (Cal) added women's lacrosse.
I used to smoke pot with Johnny Hopkins
It was you Johnny Hopkins and Sloan Kettering and you blazed that s*** up everyday
I think Bryn Mawr and Rose Hulman were there as well
Which is why Oral Roberts and Bob Jones are praying for them
I resemble that remark!
what this would do would be to set up a B1G Lacrosse conference as opposed to the ECAC where OSU and Michigan are now....with Maryland joining, you could have the Hopkins/Maryland lacrosse rivalry be inner-conference now...I think if Hopkins comes in, B1G will finally be a Lacrosse conference, opening the door for other schools in the B1G that have it as a club sport to move to varsity
As a lacrosse fan, I FREAKIN LOVE THIS!
Adding in Maryland and Johns Hopkins would make it a legitimate league. PSU and OSU are both decent programs with a couple of NCAA appearances under their belt and Michigan has fast tracked their program, tossing a bunch of money at it and should be at that level quickly. Plus we add in Rutgers and we get the 6 team league that is needed for an auto-bid to the tournament.
As you said, this will open the door for club teams to make the pitch to be D1. Illinois has a damn good club team (same with hockey) and could think about making that jump if they had a landing place.
Cause I couldn't go for three
Does the Big Ten have any "X sport only members" in other areas?
No, this would set a new precendent
Cause I couldn't go for three
I didnt think so but I was willing to be wrong, I dont follow other sports past Football and BBall
I'm just waiting for X-games events to become NCAA sanctioned events! Good luck trying to regulate that pot smoking bunch!
If the B1G is ever going to add a DIII school, it's gonna be Chicago first.
"I like to kick Michigan's ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of gum."
The thing is that Chicago doesn't have any teams that play a sport on the D1 level. John Hopkins lacrosse is Division 1 but the rest of their sports are DIII. So, you could invinte JHU to join a B1G lacrosse league without having to have the rest of their sports join too since none of the others compete on the same level.
Cause I couldn't go for three
We could invite them, but they don't need us. They already have rivalries with the good ACC teams, Ivies and Syracuse as well as Maryland and UMBC
True to a point. JHU's cache in lacrosse is far greater than all of the current B1G's combined. Adding UMD, that changes a bit, but it would still be a weaker league. But there are a couple reasons why being an independent in today's day and age is SO much harder...
1) The auto-bid: If JHU is not really good, they have no chance at the tournament cause they have to be an at-large. Joining the B1G, they would just have to win that tournament, which wouldn't be terribly difficult.
2) Scheduling: I know that they have a lot of traditional rivals in the maryland area (Loyola, UMD, UMBC, Navy) as well as some of the Ivies (esp Princeton). But in the current landscape, conferences are moving towards more and more in-conference matches and less OOC games. It's gonna be a lot harder to fill out that schedule. Joining a conference (esp a relatively small one like the B1G or the Big East) would be a good idea because it would secure a schedule but still leave lots of room to schedule those big rivals OOC.
3) Recuriting: I grew up in Maryland, I know that Baltimore is bursting by the seams with talent, but Lacrosse is a VERY fast growing sport and the chance to put your roots into potential new recruiting grounds (Specifically PA/OH/Chicagoland) is something that really has to interest JHU.
Cause I couldn't go for three
You're right, they don't need the B1G to legitimize or enhance their LAX stature, but I'm guessing B1G Network money would exceed their TV deal with ESPNU. With stagnant/decreasing NIH/NSF funding, all research universities are looking for other revenue sources. If nothing else, running this idea up the media flagpole will enable them to see what ESPN is willing to offer. And LAX is growing so fast that it makes sense for B1G to consider something like this.
Your user name made me laugh, my buddy is a HUGE guided by voices fan! Not many people know about them.
Guided,
Your and Rampage's posts bring up interesting points.
First off, I don't believe that they can command a lot of money regardless of the network carrier. I used to agree that lacrosse was about to pop, but there seems to be a lid on it, and it just doesn't look like it will break through. Outside of Maryland (and Syracuse) no one watches and the MLL ratings are horrible.
Recruiting wise, lacrosse has been national for a long time. U of Denver probably has half their kids from Maryland, as does Duke, N Dame etc.
I had not thought about the conference attraction to Hopkins, and that may well be a good selling point, but as far as the increased intraconference games squeezing them out, I don't believe that would effect Hopkins like it would lesser programs. Hopkins is the Penn State of college lacrosse if not the N Dame.
'Cuse is the ND of College Lacrosse. If Delaney REALLY wanted a lax power, not only would Syracuse bring that to the table, they'd also provide a better-than-average football team, a very storied basketball team, AND a very large amount of TV money that Johns Hopkins would fail to provide.
Remember kids, it's all about the buck$.
"I like to kick Michigan's ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of gum."
And Syracuse plays at least one football game in the Meadowlands each year. It may be a bigger attraction in NYC than Rutgers. And it would renew the PSU/SU rivalry.
A while ago, Frank the Tank quoted a commenter to the fact that Syracuse might bring as much TV money to the BTN as does Nebraska.
Men's Lacrosse brings very little to the table. I know that a lot of people like the sport, but just having a few games on BTN doesn't appeal to a large crowd, and considering that JH is in a market the Big Ten has already established its footprint in, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to bring Hopkins in.
For Chicago, they would need a decade to work their way up to D1 level recruiting wise by moving into D2 for 5 years then FCS for another 5 years before joining the Big Ten. Again, does not bring a new market to the table, but it DOES bring tradition, which is a bigger factor than some school that's good at lacrosse.
"I like to kick Michigan's ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of gum."
Lacrosse is very big on the east coast. To me, this looks like either an attempt to follow-through on a promise made to Maryland and Rutgers, an additional lure for Notre Dame, an additional lure for schools like UVA and UNC (and Duke if UNC doesn't bite), or a combination of all the above.
Maryland was actually very concerned about its lacrosse program when moving to the B1G. It came up locally (I live in Northern VA/DC area) quite a bit.
I actually think this is a pretty smart move for the B1G, for the very reasons you cite. I'm not in favor of the conference going out of its way to court Notre Dame anymore (the ship sailed on that one long ago, in my book), but I do think it is a good move for the eastern expansion effort, and help further integrate our new conference brethren.
Plus, take this a step further - from a broader strategic standpoint, think of the demographics of the average lacrosse fan and, more importantly, the average lacrosse player... According to Lacrosse Magazine:
Now, does that sound like an audience an academically upward-mobile conference wants to tackle? Of course. Think of the opportunities, also, to put lacrosse programming on BTN at off-peak hours, and give those new viewers along the Eastern Seaboard something else to watch...
Finally, consider this comment from an April 2012 USA Today article on lacrosse and college recruitment:
Jim Delaney isn't stupid, and a Big Ten with lacrosse (and perhaps hockey and other non-revenue sports, too), is an idea that's time has come.
Oh, good points on the demographics- I think I had the general opinion that was the demographic, but hadn't seen stats to back it up.
On the surface I don't like the idea of partial members for only certain sports, but when I look at it more deeply I see a lot of advantages. Not just for lacrosse but also as you mention for hockey. Why not be the best conference we can be in each sport, providing entertainment that attracts viewers to BTN?
Once again it comes down to the more traditional view of conferences as a gathering of like-minded and cultured schools versus the modern view of conferences as brands that provide products. And, also once again, I find myself nostalgically wishing for the days of yesteryear and the way it was, while simultaneously understanding the need to be ahead of the curve and admiring Delaney for his business acumen.
Just....no.
I'm against this. Lacrosse is not a revenue sport in this league and more than likely never will be. Conference athletic revenue should not be distributed to John Hopkins because they're brainy and have a premier lacrosse team. And if they're not going to get $$$ then what is their motivation for joining?
As someone who has been in the hockey hinterlands for low these many years when all we had to do was tell Notre Dame they could join the Big Ten in one sport only --- I SAY NO. NO EXCEPTIONS.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
1) They get CIC money, that's the pull.
2) The reason why we refused ND in one sport but would allow this is because JHU only competes in D1 in lacrosse, all the rest is D3. The B1G would not be in position to refuse a conference member from admiting their teams into one of the conferences. It is B1G policy that if you have a program in a sport with a B1G sponsored conference, your team has to be in that conference. Allowing ND to join in one sport would set a bad precendent. Let's say PSU's baseball gets REALLY good and realizes that the B1G conference is pulling them down. If this prescedent is set how can the B1G stop them from finding a better conference for that team?
In the end, how can this at all be a bad thing? It's a special circumstance, and without JHU a B1G lacrosse league would be really tough.
Cause I couldn't go for three
Solid analysis, Senõr Ripster. You're exactly correct on all of the above. If the conference already has five players, it could do lacrosse in 2014 (with Maryland and Rutgers, that is), and should Delaney pillage the ACC for UNC and Virginia as I suspect, the B1G lacrosse offerings would be very, very good. Adding JHU would be a smart move, and adding them to the CIC would be an added bonus.
I really don't think they'll do it with only 5 members. There is no auto-bid with 5 members and everyone besides Maryland cannot rely on getting an at-large on a regular basis. I think this move is to allow the B1G to form a league in 2014 when RU and UMD join and get to 6. Then, the other ACC teams can be slowly introduced in. Plus, it would show these ADs the B1G's commitment to the entire sports spectrum.
Overall, I love the move.
Cause I couldn't go for three
John Hopkins does quite fine with research money as it stands, they don't need the CIC. The CIC actually stands to benefit more from adding them, than the other way around.
So again I say, we're not distributing conference athletic revenue to a school because they are brainy and really good at one non-revenue sport in which we need a 6th team.
Let's drop the Notre Dame ice hockey comparison. What about Nebraska-Omaha? They're really good in ice hockey and play every other sport in Division II. So why aren't we adding UNO? This would have given us our 6th ice hockey team a while ago.
I'll tell you why... it complicates the conference and breaks with the Big Ten's history. A history that goes back 117 years.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
1) That's silly. The CIC dwarfs anything in the US by large amounts. Sure JHU gets a lot of grants (especially their medical campus) but it's nothing compared to the CIC. There is no way JHU would consider joining the league if entrance into the CIC wasn't part of it.
2) I'm sure they won't get the same cut as say Iowa or Nebraska. That's just as sillt of a notion. But they'll get a smaller percentage, which will probably still be substancial compared to what they have now.
3) You make a fair point, except UNO hockey is no where near JHU lacrosse. I think this does open the door to adding some other programs in sports like hockey. Also, until BTN was created, it would not have been possible to create a B1G hockey conference, the money just wouldn't be there to break apart the traditional rivalries. After BTN was a proven success, it was a given that PSU was going to make the jump.
4) You want to talk about breaking up history? You know how long Ohio St and BG have been in the same hockey conference? How about Minn with Minn-Duluth and MinnSt? If that is what you are stuck up on, it's time to get over it. History and tradition are taking a back seat right now to secure the future of the conference.
This move does nothing to the VAST majority of the conference and in turn SIGNIFICANTLY improves the conference in lacrosse a well as improves the standing of the CIC. It's a no brainer.
Cause I couldn't go for three
What about North Dakota, Minnesota State, Duluth for hockey? These are all much better options.
Hey, I got an idea. Let's pick up Case Western and Carnegie Mellon while we're at it.
L.A.M.E.
Are they ELITE at a sport with a special ESPN contract? No... didn't think so.
How about you supply some sort of opinion that has a least SOME thought behind it?
Cause I couldn't go for three
Divison 3 football. 'Nuff said. I'll be damned if Ohio State has to play this kind of sh*t every year. Unacceptable.
Let's add UCSD, too. I hear they have an ESPN contract for their ultimate frisbee and surfing teams. Plus...west coast, y'all.
The Big East and MAC have to play the affiliate member game. The Big Ten doesn't.
Look at the MAC's wiki page. Scroll down to Current affiliate members. That's the sort of mess we don't need.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
Okay, campers, let's all simmer down a minute. Setting aside the speculation about JHU (which I think Ripster has actually explained in a reasonably well-formulated rationale) for a minute, consider this: regardless of your distaste for adding an "affiliate" member to the conference, should the Big Ten establish a soccer league of its own, that is almost a sure-fire sign that a plundering of the ACC is nigh on imminent; with the addition of Rutgers, Maryland, and either/both Virginia or/and North Carolina, the B1G would become a premier (if not the premier) lacrosse conference in the country.
Umm... they aren't joining for football. ONLY for lacrosse. No other sports, did you even read the article at all? Skim it? Look at the headline?
We would be lucky for Ohio St to get to play JHU lacrosse every year.
Cause I couldn't go for three
A 1-sport deal makes it even more lame, though. And the Big East having all sorts of non-football members has led to nothing but confusion and instability. It dilutes the product and makes it difficult for general fans to follow. In this case, lacrosse is a niche sport. Hunting and fishing shows have TV contracts with ESPN, too. As the Big Ten tries to get to bigger numbers, having 1-sport involvement will complicate matters.
I definitely see your argument about the pitfalls of one-sport affiliation with the B1G. That said, there are some definite and obvious advantages to bringing JHU into the CIC, and if that takes figuring out a way to let them play in a new Big Ten lacrosse conference, well...
I don't think the advantages are definite at all. Plus I think most of the John Hopkins supporters are down-playing the pitfalls that likely will result. Bucksfan is right to bring up the Big East basketball members. I could make a case that their actions are the biggest reason that conference is dissolving. They became their own little caucus within the Big East with the sole motivation of making sure the football members didn't gain any traction. (This is also a compelling reason for including as few members of the Tobacco Road Mafia as possible in any B1G expansion southward.)
IOW, it's going to be hard enough with all of these new league members to maintain cohesion and harmony. Start throwing affiliate members into the mix and all hell is going to break loose.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
Dang, I'm a junior at Hopkins and I'm not going to lie it would be pretty sweet to able to watch some Big Ten teams (not sure how quickly this would take effect though). I've been to a lot more football games than lacrosse while I've been here, just because I'm originally from Florida. I'd definitely go to more if Ohio State played us, I'd probably have to wear one of those half-Hopkins/half-Buckeye shirts, though.
I like it. They are one of the heavy hitters in research. It would be a great add in a U of Chicago sort of way.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
That's the way I read it, too. Bring them into the CIC a la Chicago, and let them play in a new B1G lacrosse conference. Little downside, and doesn't break with precedent (since none of their other sports are D1, hence not eligible for B1G inclusion). They wouldn't actually have to be "members," either, but rather just scheduling partners, as with the proposed/defunct PAC-12 alliance.
Agree. Little downside with this move if any. And fits quite well with the direction that the B1G is going. I welcome similar opportunities.
Wake me up when we start talking about real sports again!
"Because I couldn't go for 3"