It doesn't take what Ray Finkle's mom would call a sports nut to figure out Urban is unsatisfied with the large chunks of yardage the defense is giving up. Particularly through the air. That's not to say Fickell & Co. are pleased about it. It does seem though, there might be a difference of schematic opinion between Fick & Co and UFM.
For instance, in his post game comments UFM sounded pissed there wasn't man to man coverage being played or at least a tightening up of the cushion given to the WRs. Then you have Coach Withers comments to the tune of "We gave up 15 points, that's all I give a shit about" indicating an attitude reminiscent of Michael "Squints" Palledorous (we got the ball back). Add that to Fick getting a little snippy on air with Rothman when asked about the Cal game and zone vs man coverage saying "did you watch the game?" and I think there might be something to this.
I thought it was interesting. Maybe I'm stating the complete obvious. What are your thoughts on this?
The defense didn't give up a touchdown, Meyer's special teams did. The component of the game that Meyer directly controls allowed a touchdown, when the defense didn't, he doesn't have much room to talk when it comes to allowing points or not using the right scheme, at least in the case of the UAB game. Just my .02
Yeah he does....the defense gave up way too many 3rd and long plays for first downs....and way too many yards......he talked about the special teams....too many freshman playing because of injuries but will fix it...the blocked punt was a missed assignment....I personally like his flat out straight forward talk....go listen to his press conference from today....pretty telling....he talked about the aggressiveness of the db's....didn't hear it but they said he mentioned last week he wanted more press coverage. Not sure how much he would call out coaches in public, but I liked what I heard from the press conference.
You shouldn't have to be in "bend don't break" defense against teams like UAB. I know Urban Meyer isn't a defense guy but I can't figure out why he doesn't just demand that the DCs call more man and press coverage. It's really embarassing and I would think...totally fixable. Now the linebackers suck but that's just another story all together.
I agree with William. The D had their problems but b/w the blocked punt, running into the kicker, and the onside, the special teams showed bigger problems.
And part of the D's problem was penalties at very inopportune times, which goes back to discipline which is just as much on the HC as the DCs.
Improvement needed all around, but I'm staying optimistic.
This is actually one of the major issues or components that I was curious about heading into the season.
When Meyer said we would be keeping largely the same defensive scheme and working at being more aggressive, I felt we were going to have a problem.
Fickell/Heacock's Ds have always been stout but have followed the bend don't break mentality. We have routinely (not to the tune of 450+ yds a game) given up yards to defenses while keeping teams out of the end zone and settling for field goals. This worked well when you had an offense that was more concerned with controlling the clock and working on the field position.
Multiple times this year, we will go 3 and out and not take but 40 seconds off the game clock. What it does is puts our defense right back out on the field, and sometimes not in the best field position. It seems to me the synergy between the two units is off, they don't work in unision.
I feel that Urban's offense, needs to have an equally aggressive defense, one that constantly brings pressure and forces the opponent to play uncomfortable and really not execute on their gameplan. It yields turnovers and the defense doesn't have to play perfectly because the opponent and offense are rattled and miss passes, don't hit holes, hold on to the ball, etc...
In general, I just think Fickell's defense and Meyer's offense aren't made for eachother and something has to give. Not saying either is right/wrong just that there needs to be cohesion in the planning
"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick
Well....running into the kicker is going to happen if your going for a block....which is being aggressive and I like it...do I like running into the kicker..no but it is what it is....I am no where near worried about special teams.....they have only had one blocked, it will be fixed, if they get another one blocked this week then yeah maybe there is some cause for concern but they had one blocked in four games, its not like they have had 4 or 5 blocked.....I think there are more problems with defense than the special teams.
The pressure is there. Urban wants the best staff in CFB. If they're not getting it done, there will be tension. If there's no discernible improvement, there will be tension.
Bad schemes on defense are on the staff. Bad tackling is on the players (you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink).
Class of 2010.
OSU07ASU10, I couldn't agree more! OSU's defense over the years has been supported by a ball control offense. A lot of spread teams conversely give up a lot of yards and even points. The difference is that they put pressure on the opposition to score points, often forcing them out of their game plan. I suspect this will be a year of Fickell and Whithers adjusting to position Meyer's spread places them in. In time, Meyer will build defenses meant to handle the pressure of less TOP and generating a pass rush and playing lots of man.
Because we couldn't go for three.
At the end of the day yardage doesn't win football games... points do. While yardage definitely skews field position and influences scoring, it isn't the stat that determines who won the game.
Greg Jennings "I put my team on my back"
Exactly. Look at the Arizona/Oregon game. Arizona was able to reach the red zone six times and Oregon turned them away every time. I suspect without looking they gave up a ton of yardage in the process but zero points.
Because we couldn't go for three.
I've watched Urban's interactions with his defensive coaches closely and I think it's fair to say there is some tension there. Urban got in Vrabel and Fick's face during the UCF game when we couldn't get pressure on the QB to save our lives, and Vrabel was clearly expressing frustration/anger towards UFM in response. Withers' comments tend to suggest that UFM is giving them the business in staff meetings. Coombs seems to stick closer to UFM during the game than the other defensive guys. I think if UFM had it his way, he would have hired away Greg Mattison from Michigan and been done with the Heacock/Fickell era, but he likely couldn't generate the cash or push Mattison out of a comfortable position.
There should be tension, the D has underperformed and it really doesn't matter what the special teams has done. That is separate. If Urban goes to Fick and Withers and says what's going on here, it's not like they are going to fire back with, well your special teams keeps messing up. One has nothing to do with the other. Those problems will be addressed, now what are the D coordinators going to do?
Failures of one don't negate failures of the other. It all needs to be addressed.
I would actually be kind of upset if Urban WASN'T a little teed off these past couple of weeks. Yes, the points are not being given up, but other teams within the big 10 will be able to gain the same type of yardage but they have teams to convert that to points. Just a bit scary when i really start to think about it
edit: ignore grammar issues...just ranting at work
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
I'm going to side with Urban on this one all day! He has 2 rings from UF and knew how to build a great defense.
Our defense should be imtimidating to other teams, especially teams who experience the shoe for the first time. We play a defense that is design to build the other teams confidence if they execute ( our missed tackles, and easy catches for short yards builds the Q-back confidence.) We need to shut down teams, and give our offense multiple chances to put points on the board. Our defense shouldn't be on the field forever against lower competition! We just need to flat out compete!
Jford
new coaches, new schemes, not as much talent in some areas too work with, co defensive coordinators (?), why not one. injuries here and there. why wouldnt there be a bit of tension? the one positive thing is the man in charge has two rings. he knows what to do, it is just going to take a bit of time. got a nice class coming in next year, and just wait until he puts the 2014 class together. where i work there is tension from time to time, and that isnt a bad thing, if some positives come out of it. i am not concerned, my eyes are on the big prize, and the coach that can do it, is home now. go urban go buckeyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Couple of thoughts: first, we Buckeye fans have been calling for more press/man coverage for years. I think we'd probably run it more if we had the athletes (remember the game losing TD pass against Texas in the Fiesta Bowl? Blown man coverage and a missed tackle). It's not always greener on the other side. Right now I just don't think our CB's and moreso, our LB's and safeties, can hold up in man coverage.
Secondly, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the bend but don't break defense. Yes, it requires your defense to play longer than a lights out 3 and out defense. Not a deal breaker in and of itself. However, the difference between and a bend defense and a break defense is two big things: being able to play assignment football and tackle in open space, and to get off the field on third and medium to long. We can't tackle one on one to save our life right now, which is why we give up a ton of long 3rd down conversions. Shore up the tackling and the assignments and you'll see shorter opponent drives and more 3 and outs.
When told OSU set school record for 50+ games this year, UFM said "That's good. We're gonna break that next year."
I totally am with UFM on this one. How quickly we forgot 2011. Remember how at first we "bent" but didn't "break" on defense. As the season went on we started bending more and more and finally broke. Gave up 159 points in the last 6 games. Don't need to see that again!
Yeah, there might be some tension in the coaching rooms. Heck, given the defense's struggles, there ought to be some tension. But tension is not necessarily destructive; it's often necessary for constructive improvement.
Two other points:
Good point Fido. Don't want to be running with your back to those QB's as they are making our LB's look drunk. Maybe a happy medium of playing zone but shrinking the cushion is in order?
They'll continue to adjust as the season goes on, as well. I fondly remember the PSU game where Moxie McGloin had his coming out party in the first half, largely due to the DB's giving a 10 yard cushion. Then at halftime we changed the approach and told the DB's to start jumping the short routes and we ended up picking him off a couple of times for scores (at least one for a score, might have been a second). If the old regime can make that kind of in game adjustment, I'm confident this staff can figure out the same thing sooner or later.
When told OSU set school record for 50+ games this year, UFM said "That's good. We're gonna break that next year."
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Whether they are getting along or not is trivial if the fundamentals aren't rock solid. No scheme in the world will be successful if you can't get off blocks and make tackles.
I did not know that, other than Urb saying he wanted to clean house and then had his mind changed by Fickell's attitude. Where'd you hear that FormerBuck?
When told OSU set school record for 50+ games this year, UFM said "That's good. We're gonna break that next year."
Yes, we have shitty tackling technique. Yes our LB's and even the secondary takes shitty angles towards the ball carrier. And this all started after Heacock left. Coincidence of him leaving, lower level athletes, the Tressel fiasco, coaching changes, etc....? Possibly. I don't know jack about coaching, but even I know something is immensely wrong with our defense. Let's take a look at the national stats when Heacock was hired in '05:
Rush D Pass D Overall D Scoring D
2005 1st 43rd 5th 5th
2006 15th 30th 12th 5th
2007 3rd 1st 1st 1st
2008 18th 25th 14th 6th
2009 7th 13th 5th 5th
2010 3rd 8th 4th 5th
2011 50th 14th 19th 27th
2012 33rd 104th 71st 31st
Our defense during his tenure was nothing short of incredible. The most amazing stat is that we were never below 6th in points scored. Our defense was damn good. I think the one thing that is killing us this year is our offense, i.e. we score in 2 minutes or we're 3 and out. We are 84th in the country in TOP, which blows. Add everything up, and you have a very average team, which we are right now. Luckily, the B1G is so bad, average is cause for potentially winning our division. I can see us going 7-1 or 4-4. Neither would surprise me. I'm babbling, I don't even know what I'm writing about anymore, so I'm going to stop.
I think OSUBIAS hit the nail on the head with this comment
Though I think our CBs would be fine in man coverage, our LBs and safeties would certainly be a liability.
But Fido is also spot on stating that when the opposing O has a running threat at QB, zone would probably be the best approach.
So in the end all of this is probably yet another growing pain of such a large staff turnover (anyone notice how Wisconsin's Offense is doing with a revamped staff; and yes they had to replace key members of the O-line and Wilson, but that's still a steep drop-off). Hopefully the D is firing on all cylinders this week and the bullets swarm to the ball (which will probably be held by Bell 90% of the time, who won't be arm tackled by anyone save Hankins).
I've been saying this all year when you play off 10 yards team are going to throw quick and get 5 to 8 yards all day long. You could have the greatest d line of all time and it wouldn't matter.
There is no reason to not press cover MSU they have a shitty Offense and want to run the ball.
You're both right BuckeyeEddie and Alex Boone's liver...
BuckeyeEddie: It's is becoming noticeable...Urban is getting tired of not seeing what he wants from the defensive side (despite all the excuses...this defense is not young and should be making better tackles...it's not just the young ones missing tackles. When a Buckeye team returns "9" starters...they should be kicking a@@ and taking names during those first four games).
AlexB'sLiver: The not getting along part isn't bothersome...it's the fact that those defensive coaches (at least LBs and Dline) aren't adjusting during the game. That's why Urban's becoming less and less patient. I would too considering most of this is fundamentals...tackling, pursuit angles...on and on. Right now based on stats, the DBs Ints and Big Hank are all you can "really" hang your hat on for OSU's defense (bc they've given up more yards than last year I think...but they're still winning). It's not a team effort...yet. I'd go on about offense too, but I'm a defensive guy....Meyer and Herman I feel will be OK.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
I listened to Withers' press meeting today and he said he wants to play more press man coverage and our corners are more than capable of doing so. This leads me to think that Fickel is the source of the soft zone coverage. He better figure something out since Meyer sounds like he wants a much more aggressive and intimidating defense.
I would looooooove to fire Luke If it meant getting Greg M. Even though I really like Luke as a man and what he tried to do for the program last year. Greg is just such a superior recruiter.
Follow me @jaythesportsguy
I don't think Greg M. would leave Michigan. Would look terrible.
Shouldn't all the coaches want an intimidating defense? Doesn't make sense if Fickell doesn't.
I wonder if Fick is watching Seattle's D right now against Green Bay... Man to man on the outside, tons of pressure on Rogers, tackling in space, just putting on a clinic right now!
Green Bay also has zero running game so Seattle doesn't get burnt by not having enough men in the box.
Green bay has very glaring weaknesses. O-line cant block, they hardly attempt to run the ball..
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
I'm blown away that this year's d is statistically worse than last years.
Also I think TOP means nothing. Miami, FSU and Nebraska dominated the nineties, two of them scored in seconds, the other had the ball all game. The common denominator... Nasty defenses, the type we are used to having in the shoe.
Go bucks
Seattle with 8 sacks in 1st half..they look super bowl caliber..my goodness! They lock down the secondary and get after the QB in 3 seconds. Looks like the fastest defense in football..all with a bunch I late round no name players.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
I don't think it's a philosophical issue:
bad tackling + bad penalties + poor communication = tension among the coaches
"The revolution will be televised."
Receivers on opposing teams are releasing off the line without any resistance. That has to change. Bump and run coverage has to be implemented at some point in the right down and distance. I haven't seen it at all really. I don't understand it. We have very athletic corners that have the size to be more physical at the line of scrimmage. Urban commented that the team was being too "passive". I'm sure he was talking about both sides of the football, not just the offense. I hope OSU can get it together at Mich State this Sat.
My mind's telling me no, but my body, my body's telling me yeah. Baby. Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii don't want to hurt nobody, but there is something that I must confeeeeeeeess: I don't see nothing wrong...with a little bump & run...I don't see nothing wrong.....
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA ^^^^^
Follow me @jaythesportsguy
All I have to say about this is, it's hard to be the boss when there is another boss who is in charge just like you. Either give the job to Fickell, or not. Decisions by proxy do not work.
There is something amiss going on here, but I don't think it is anything that is a major concern... yet. They are still learning about each other and I think they will work it out. I think we should not jump to too many conclusions or bridges and see how this year unfolds. I love the old adage "95% of the things we worry about never happen" so until the losses start adding up, I, for one, am not going to worry about it. Go Bucks!
LMAO @ Bucks43201
Trotwood-Madison. Once a Ram, Always a Ram.
yeah, man -- that's how Urban should approach Luke about the style of D he wants implemented. Just put it in lyric & verse.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
Builder of Coalitions: 84 plays, 332 yards for Arizona against Oregon...to be exact.
Interesting Sidenote: Did you guys know that prior to coming to OSU to work under John Cooper and coach the D-line in 1996, Jim Heacock was the head coach @ Illinois State (div. 1-aa) from 1988-1995?
And guess who worked for Heacock there for a 2 year stint (88-89)? Urban Meyer.
uuummmm. We're not that good. The End.
We should just go with the "Ask Corso" defense. It works great for my Bucks in NCAA 2010. Trust me on this. I have at least 10 more NT's than UFM, plus I dominated him while he was at Florida.
Bucktooooooth, heeyaw.
Bucktooth-
Ncaa 2010 is old, and so is your schtick. Besides, nobody dominates Urban, be it video game or otherwise.
Buckguuuuy, hi there.
Kidding, your schtick is fine;-P
Look, if uab puts up that yardage without a score, then the rest I the teams on our schedule put up more yardage and more tds. It's a realistic understanding of where we are at.
Has everyone forgotten that typically Urban's teams don't fully explode until season 2 and season 3? Let season 1 play out like the first season of Breaking Bad... a harbinger to an even better future :)
That is fine, a realistic expectation is that the team will get better with time and practice, but we also can look at the talent level and see they are not playing to their potential. It's ok to be disappointed with that, not be impressed with our current level of play regardless of record, an set up realistic expectations against tougher opponents.
What will be the excuse if this team doesn't look like world beaters next season?
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
I don't know, I will be even more dissappointed than I am now if they are just as sloppy. IMO, only the coaches stand in the way of this team coming together for a NC run.
I think I trust Urban Meyer to make the right decisions and put a terrorizing defense together as he did @ Florida. Its not going to happen in 4 games with the same players who went 6-7 last year though. I'm pretty sure this guy knows what he's doing and if the asst. coaches are not "getting it done", Meyer will find ones who will.
At the end of the day, it's too early to pass judgement on this team/coaches after 4 games. The good news is everyone knows we're not playing/coaching to our potential. We'd have a REAL problem if our team and coaches were hitting 100% and we were in this position
part of the reason with my disappointment is the coaches disappointment... that being said 4-0 is good and ill take that... with the rest of the big ten being down i still dont think we lose no more than 2 and stand a real possibility at running the table.
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
Fickell and Vrable were not total unknowns to Urban before he decided to have them join his staff. Getting a new staff to mesh together and be on the same page after a few games is nigh onto impossible.