Eleven Warriors

in principle, i agree with you. for example, if a kid has an academic scholarship, and fails all his classes, he probably doesnt deserve the scholarship anymore. in theory, the same should be true with football scholarships. if you are a bad football player, someone else is probably more deserving of your spot.

with that said, i think oversigning is a net negative. football is important, but we need to at least pretend that the reason recruits are coming to osu is to get an education. to take away a free education that was offered to you, doesnt seem right if academics are your number one goal. 

My opinion, the real outrage comes from Alabama and LSU being good.  No one cares about Troy oversigning, but Alabama or LSU does it and their coaches are the devil.  People have a hard time accepting that SEC teams are better and they want to cling to any possible reason they can to justify their conference or team being inferior.

The SEC has pretty much done away with oversigning now, so I'm looking forward to what people are outraged about 5 years from now when they are still winning a ton of ball games.

Here's the thing that gets me, if you committ to these schools, you have to know that it's a possibility.  It's been well documented.  So I don't buy that, oh the poor kid committed, but then got blindsided and had no place to go.  They are well aware of what could happen.  It's part of the risk you take for wanting to play for those schools.  We don't know what the coaches actually tell the kids either.  Saban could be upfront and say hey, there's a chance you get bumped out of this class, or you may have to grayshirt.  We aren't in those living rooms and we don't have much feedback from kids who have been screwed over to support these opinions either.

That's the only part to me that is immoral.  If a coach tells a kid you're our guy, then pulls the rug out from under them, but in the world of social media and round the clock recruiting coverage, I would think we would read all these examples of kids who are upset, or pissed because Saban and Miles royally screwed them.  Other than a couple examples here and there, we don't get that.  I've seen about as many angry tweets from players Meyer has cut loose at Ohio State.

Here's a good example of oversigning:

What you are talking about, the examples you use are that of a professional entity. I am being paid to provide a specific skill set. College football is "supposed" to be an amateur event. These kids sign their lives over to a university for the ability to go to school and get a free education. In turn, they play whatever sport they got a free ride for. Now I won't debate the amateur status of these kids because I have mixed feelings on the matter but that is what premise is founded on. That is why the federal government can't tax these learning institutions.

I see your argument and would frame it more like this. You find a vehicle that you think will help you achieve your daily tasks. You take out a loan on this vehicle. You discover the vehicle doesn't handle the payload that you need it for but it was your fault for not doing enough research before buying it. You can't just trade it in for another because it is a human life. I don't know, I got nothing else. Now after thinking about it, comparing a human life to a tangible thing isn't so ideal. The thing is that these are young individuals who are just starting their walk in life. The focus of a University is to educate and give tools to the student that help the student find his way in the world. To look at the situation through your eyes, you are putting football ahead of students best interest. That is not the way it was intended when scholarships first started being issued. (At least not in the B1G) Many problems with oversigning have been associated with the Southeastern conference yet they are not the sole practitioners. That was one of the main causes for GT to defect back in the silver years.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense from a production sense. That's why many coaches, primarily in other conferences give one year renewable contracts. I think ultimately a good coach with a good staff will properly evaluate these kids before they are offered. If they are lazy and don't pan out, there should be another kid that wants that playing time ready to step up. The lazy kids punishment shouldn't be removal from school but loss of playing time. This requires the coaches to do the job that they are getting paid millions to do. Evaluate, Recruit, Train and Win. That is something that I thought Tressel did better than most coaches.

Let me ask you Formerbuck. Your son is a highly rated recruit in high school. He joins Alabama. When he gets there he can't make his talent translate onto the field. He is giving his all and working his ass off but can't seem to piece it together. He does everything that is asked of him and maybe he just lacks the mental aspect of the game. The next bluechipper comes along and your son is "encouraged" to transfer and free up a scholarship. Now if your son could just switch without having to sit out a year, it may not be as big of an issue. that isn't the case though. Look at all of the former big name division one prospects that have to go to division 2 schools. I could go on for a while but I would just be giving pro oversigners like catch5 more to dissect. In short these are human beings lives, not property.  A scholarship is not a paycheck for services. If it was the government would be taxing it. JMHO

Flip - You're right. My bad. Ha.

In many cases, I wouldn't say 17 to 20 year olds are adults, but that's just me!  I for one was no where close to the maturity level of an adult at that age.  You learn so much about yourself and life in college.  Some people may be, but I'd say most aren't.

I guess I just have to disagree. A good portion of the student athletes don't come from a family that can afford to fit the bill for even one year. T. Pryor comes to mind. I am not sure how student loans are handed out because I went the military route and used my GI Bill for mine. Is everyone that applies entitled? Now lets say he has to transfer to a Div 2 team. Now he has to pick up his entire life and start over after recently just doing the same when he moved to the previous institution. There is always someone better out there. Maybe he isn't as good as the best option on that team. I just think it is bad form to clear out a space for some freshmen to grow in the ranks when option number one graduates or leaves for the pros.

I certainly understand removing a kid due to disciplinary issues, ala Dom Clarke. If a kids talent was properly evaluated or he mentally can't make it click but he is giving his best honest effort, I have a hard time with being okay with that. JMHO

Guys that redshirt and are entering their would be 5th year 9 times out of 10 will have already received their degree, there for been "paid out" for their service per the scholarship agreement.  Every year this happens and it is usually a mutual decision or a move iniated by the player, as they know that they'll probably never play and it won't benefit them in the future.  That's normal attrition and, as long, as the kid isn't fighting for the spot (or even if he is), I think it's acceptable.

People who think that this teaches kids not to feel entitled forget the fact that they earned these scholarships.  They worked hard for at least 4 years in high school to earn the scholarship.  I think that it would be a good life lesson for kids to learn loyalty, and that people who get paid millions to coach a kids game don't have all of the power in the world and have to live with the choices they made on who to give scholarships to.  Otherwise you are teaching kids the life lesson that you can get screwed by others' mistakes that you had very little influence on.

I'd also think it's laughable that people treat the recruits like some wide eyed innocent kid.  These guys have done a lot of living.  They are exposed to a lot more of life than I ever was as at 17 years old.  Many of them have been talking to the media since they were sophomores in high school and have had college coaches, "advisors" and "mentors", agents, and all kind of other people pulling them in different directions.  They have been twitter stalked by fans of their potential schools, and even called names and threatened by 40 year old men who aren't as mature as the 17 year old they are screaming at on twitter. Then you add to it all the travel they do, visiting colleges and partying.  Shaking hands with boosters and alumni etc.  They learn a whole lot more about the real world, and college than most high schoolers do. Not to mention as was pointed out above, many of them come from backgrounds where they are forced to grow up awfully quickly anyway.

You don't buy that signing 100 players over 4 years in an advantage compared to signing 80?

Former: nope they are all nonprofits that are in the "business" of educating people.  Football is just an extracurricular activity.  I love people that throw around the value of a scholarship.  If that were all these players are worth then there wouldn't be anyone clamoring to pay them more.

Also comparing DII to OSU, Alabama, USC is a joke.  Punishing some kid because a millionaire celebrity promised them the world and then took it away by forcing them to go play DII is unconscionable.

Here is a good summary of what many have said above from Tulane Sports Law author Justin Fielkow.

"Advocates of oversigning will claim that college football is a business, and there is nothing wrong with universities engaging in such competitive practices, so long as they are within the bounds of the law and NCAA guidelines.42  However, such an attitude fails to take into account the persistent exploitation of young men who are dependent on coaches and universities keeping their promises amidst a flawed system. Athletic departments already exploit student-athletes for tens of millions in profit in exchange for a minimal price - the cost of an athletic scholarship. Yet, where players are deemed to have no further value to an institution and punished through the revocation of their financial scholarship, the line between college and professional football becomes blurred to the point where universities forget that they are first and foremost academic institutions shaping the minds of young individuals, regardless of the amount of money that is poured into their football programs. It is at that sad point where institutions championing higher learning allow the notions of fair play, morality, and ethics to be compromised in the name of winning a game played primarily by teenagers."

http://www.law.tulane.edu/tlsAcademicPrograms/sportsblog.aspx?id=16523&BlogID=32328

Former - I would try to ad to this debate (which is actually a good one regardless of where you stand) but I would say that the post above by Meastro sums up my stance completely.

BT - I know where you stand as I read & respect your commentary. We are not on the same page here though. I have an sincere question for you. Do you honestly beieve that the SEC will continue to be as dominant as they are without being able to work the numbers in their advantage as far as depth is concerned? I agree that the south has great players & great coaches. However, I have to believe that oversigning would contribute to a teams ability to win games by giving them the type of depth that teams that do not oversign just cannot get...

The last four posters pretty much summarize everything I was thinking and trying to say. It is a business no doubt, but it isn't a business by definition. Just because we all know institutions are making millions in this "Business" doesn't make these college students employees. They start getting salaries and then I have no argument for your stance. BTW, I respect your civility on the matter.

^^Truth. In 2010, Arkansas had 109 kids signed over a 4 YEAR PERIOD not counting those that were red shirt seniors and on the team. We had 78 in that time period. Yes we won that game on the field. I would like to think that there are very few schools that are held to the same recruiting standard that we have that could compete against a school with numbers like that. 

Poison, I really think so.  Look at what Urban was able to do in Florida in a short time without oversigning. Had they beat Bama in the SEC title game a couple of years ago we'd be talking about Urban having 3 titles.  The winner of that game was going to win it all.  One team oversigned one didn't.  It didn't matter what Urban's recruiting class size was because he was bringing elite talent to Florida.  Bama hasn't been great every year Saban was there, they had lulls, between titles.  Hell they got embarrassed on national TV by Utah in a BCS game.

As long as Saban can keep getting these top 5 classes, no matter how many players are in the classes, he's going to win a title or more in a 5 year period.  He's just that good.  Same with Urban.  Pete Carol brought monster classes, and probably had the best team in college football for the better part of the 2000's and they never oversigned. 

Now that oversigning is pretty much dead in the SEC, I don't believe all the sudden their top 2 or 3 programs are going to fall apart and be done, and now all the sudden the B1G is going to be able to compete for titles again.  It's my position that we need to worry about our own team and conference and how they do business and say, it's our own fault we suck.  All these gentleman's agreements and conference agreement to play n on conference games against the PAC12 leading to use dropping series with SEC teams which would be much better matchups for SOS and just national perception.  The Big 10 handcuffs itself.  That and there are only a couple of really good coaches in the B1G who are competent at recruiting elite talent and coaching it up. The B1G's problems are their own, not the SEC. 

It's funny how people are so concerned for the kids on a topic like this, but on other threads you can read people bashing kids for tweets they put out, for their character(though they truly no nothing about the kids) or calling them names because they draw recruiting out etc.  Pretty convenient that the same kid who is a drama queen or would be trouble to the program, is a victim if they go to Alabama and get bumped.   Again, this topic drives me nuts but I can't resist commenting about it. 

Bt, your right on one thing. Like Ohio State, Bama and LSU won't fall apart. I think you're Arkansas and South Carolinas will start to diminish though. School prestige and heritage and the coaching staffs can provide you depth. That is something that is earned and can be done by successful programs.

Also, I think you need to stay centered on this topic. Disapproving of a kid for something he says or the way he represents himself and more importantly the University is something that he has control over. Oversigning, not so much. Just because someone disapproves of a tweet doesn't mean we don't care. I couldn't stand TP, never been a secret. I hope he succeeds in life though.

The problem is it's not like school where you have a GPA to indicate how well you're doing.  In this situation the head coach has arbitrary power.

Irricoir I think it is relevant tothe topic.  People feel sorry for the poor kids because after they weren't good enough to play anymore Saban  replaces, them, yet any time they say or do something that fans don't like at Ohio State we here, man this guy is trouble, or let's cut him , or I wish we never signed him etc.  I just find it funny that the same people who are so morally outraged that guys get replaced on a team(but they have absolutely no knowledge of the player or circumstance) would be so quick to toss players aside because they deem them as trouble or hate them because of a tweet they put out etc.  

South Carolina has had 1, double digit win season since Spurrier took over.  He's had more 7 win seasons there than anything else.  Oversigning really hasn't done well for South Carolina.  They get ranked high every year because Spurrier is their coach, then they end up losing 4-6 games and everyone realizes oh yeah they weren't really that great afterall.  

This is a dead end...  obviously the 100 people on here who think it's wrong to oversign are wrong and the 1 person who thinks it's okay is right...  end of story.  

And how do you equate college football as being a business if the players are compensated.  If they are compensated, then you're "real world" analogy is valid.  But they aren't paid anything.  Then you say they are compensated by getting a real education, and if they lose their scholarship they have to pay their way.  Most of these kids can't pay their way.  Good call!

Imagine that you applied for a 5 jobs, interviewed, and they all told you they'd want you as part of their businesses, but you have to work full time. 

You pick the one that looks best for you, respectfully saying thanks but no thanks to the other offers, ending your contact with those employers. Your orientation is scheduled in two weeks for your new job. In that time, the jobs you turned down have filled their openings.

BUT WAIT. When you get to your orientation, there is someone there already, who happens to have a better resumé. You are told sorry, even though we told you you had a job, turn out you don't.

In conclusion, that sucks ass.

Buck-1.8 I agree with your analogy except you forgot to include the fact that not only did you lose that job, but you have to sit out a year before you can apply for another job unless you are willing to take a job at minimum wage.  Because all your other offers are now off the table for that recruiting class.  I am really surprised by how many of you are in favor of over-signing.  To me it seems extremely shady and unfair to the student athlete.  You either want the kid or you don't and that is why you have to be smart about your offers.  How can you take that away from a kid after he has given up all his other options to play at your school??

Very logical discussion on this board. Good Job guys. I wish you were commentors on Oversigning.com. I could have used you to fight off Catch5 and some others. I swear I felt like this:

Hail,

I appreciate all your insight into the oversighning going on in college football right now. It,s immoral, period. You expect a 17 or 18 year old kid to sign an LOI binding him to a team with consequences for breaking that agreemnet, but a University can end it without cause?

Right now, UM and Hoke are by far and away the biggest offenders. Hoke has been there less than 2 seasons and he has run off 16 kids from the program. It's not even close. You could combine LSU and Alabama oversighning during that same period and they wouldn't be close to the fat boy's numbers. People praise that POS about his character and values and it is nothing but, hypocritical bs. Most of the 16 were 4th and 5th year seniors that never lived up to their potential. That is blatant over sighning.

Brandon, Hoke and the rest of the UM powers are THE worst in college football right now.