Ohio State Fires Band Director Jonathan Waters Due to "Sexualized Culture"

By DJ Byrnes on July 24, 2014 at 4:30p
436 Comments

As first reported by The Columbus Dispatch, Ohio State has fired their band director, Jon Waters.

According to the report, OSU ran an internal, two-month investigation that "uncovered a deep culture of sexual harassment among students that reportedly existed for years." (Ohio State's full report can be read here.)

A "cascade of evidence" was uncovered about routine sexual harassment among band members, and that the director either knew or "should have known."

The university’s 23-page report states that a parent of a band member contacted Ohio State’s Office of University Compliance and Integrity on May 23. There were several concerns which dealt with a sexualized culture permeating in the band and secrecy oaths about “objectionable traditions and customs”

The information provided by the parent constitutes a complaint under the university’s Sexual Harassment Policy 1.15 and Title IX.

Ohio State found “The Marching Band’s culture facilitated acts of sexual harassment, creating a hostile environment for students” and that Waters “knew or reasonably should have known about this culture but failed to eliminate the sexual harassment, prevent its recurrence, and address its effects.” 

Examples of abuse range from an annual midnight band practice, referred to as “Midnight Ramp,” where band members perform the ramp entrance wearing only their underwear, to nicknames, which are often obscene and sexual. Waters is present at the Midnight Ramp and was fully aware of the nicknames, according to the report.

Waters said nicknames are published in the band’s alumni network directory and provided the university with the most recent issue. They found that many were sexually implicit. Waters estimated “fifty percent” of the nicknames were questionable.

There were also claims of alcohol poisoning, which led a staff member to resign after Waters refused to investigate the matter. 

According to multiple witnesses, cases of hazing involved first-year band members having articles of clothing removed as they walked from the front of the bus to the back on road trips. 

Waters termed the culture and treatment of women in the band as “a work in progress.” 

Ohio State president Michael Drake released the following statement:

Here's Ohio State's statement in full:

The Ohio State University takes very seriously its responsibility to provide a world class education, which is enriched by a positive campus culture, diverse academic experience and opportunities for personal growth. Those responsibilities are built on the University's core values of integrity, personal accountability, openness and trust.

While the Ohio State Marching Band has embraced a tradition of excellence and become a source of enormous pride for the entire Buckeye family, a recent review of the Marching Band culture and practices revealed conduct by members of the band and staff that is inconsistent with the University's values and Title IX requirements.

A thorough investigation by the Office of University Compliance over the past two months revealed serious cultural issues and an environment conducive to sexual harassment within the Marching Band. In addition, the investigation determined that Director Waters was aware or reasonably should have known about this culture but failed to eliminate it, prevent its recurrence and address its effects.

Jon Waters has been terminated from his position as Director of the Marching Band.

"Nothing is more important than the safety of our students," said The Ohio State University President Michael Drake. "We expect every member of our community to live up to a common standard of decency and mutual respect and to adhere to university policies.

Moving forward, we must abide by a zero tolerance policy at the University—both with the Marching Band and the entire campus community—for any behavior that creates a hostile culture at Ohio State. I view this as a new day and an opportunity for the Ohio State community to come together and embrace the values and behavior that have made this University great."

In addition to changing the leadership of the Marching Band, the University immediately has taken additional steps to ensure that change is swift and impactful. This begins with the appointment of Betty Montgomery, former Ohio Attorney General, to lead an independent task force, reporting directly to President Drake and the Chairman of the Board of Trustees, to review this matter in its entirety. This task force will include nationally-recognized experts:

• Ernst & Young, which will conduct an investigatory review.
• Sports Conflict Institute, which will conduct an independent review of the Ohio State Band culture.
• Outside counsel to provide guidance on Title IX compliance.

At this time, the Ohio State Marching Band season will continue under new leadership and steps are being taken to swiftly identify an interim band director. Additional training and guidance will be developed with new band leadership to create a proper culture, and nurturing environment.

Waters was instrumental in bringing The Best Damn Band in the Land into the 21st century, orchestrating spectacular halftime shows that captivated internet audiences around the world.

As recently as last week, Waters was talking about his plans for this fall.

Waters, 38, is an Ohio State graduate and former band member, who dotted the “i” at the 1998 Michigan game. He holds a bachelor’s degree in music education and two master’s degrees in music education and conducting.

Waters served as the assistant band director under Dr. Jon Woods for 10 years before succeeding him in 2012.

Ohio State seeks to name an interim director before conducting a search for a permanent director.

436 Comments

Comments

M Man's picture

T-i-t-l-e  IX.

This has "Title IX" written all over it.

Me, back in April.  On ElevenWarriors:

As I have said every single time this topic has arisen on 11W; this isn't a Michigan problem.  It is a national problem.  My one and only prediction is that it is merely a matter of time before a Gibbons-type matter occurs in Columbus.  Not because Urban Meyer is a lax disciplinarian (I will argue that he isn't) or any other low-level sportsfan trashtalk.  The Ohio State university has a very large athletic department, with a lot of student-athletes.  That's it.  Numbers, and time.  That is why I say it is going to happen in Columbus.

When it does, my philosophical/ideological position will be the same.  Such cases belong in court.  They should be investigated.  Not swept under any institutional rugs.  And they belong in courts of law.  Not university conference rooms.  And the federal government ought not to be making Title IX threats against universities based on individual cases.

This isn't strictly a Gibbons-type matter.  There's no alleged rape.  (Albeit, Gibbons has never been charged with rape, and it appears he never will be.  If there is to be a court that will revisit the Gibbons matter, the most likely venue would be a civil courtroom in which Gibbons sued the University of Michigan for denying his due process rights in expelling him.  One such case is pending right now, in the U.S. District Court in Detroit.)  This doesn't involve a star athlete.  Although I'd be among the first to suggest/agree that few institutions are more central to the ethos and image of The Ohio State University and football Saturdays in Ohio, than TBDBITL.

My one contention -- and I've already said on the Forum that I hate the circumstances of this story and I have the gravest concern that the punishment in this case is much too severe -- is that every institution like Michigan, like Ohio State, is going to be running into Title IX issues due to some of the most explicit and intense political pressure imaginable, coming from the current administration.

Title IX pressure is what this is all about, and I bet dollars to doughnuts that Ohio State would not be looking for a new director of bands without the recent politicization of Title IX.  I said it would happen in Columbus.  Now it has.

-4 HS
cajunbuckeye's picture

I'm not sure how this relates to a douchebag that kicked for M*chigan.

An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches

+12 HS
Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

M Man, before you start with the self congratulatory BS you might want to actually read through this thread.

Most of the Ohio State fans herein are happy that the school took immediate & decisive action as opposed to...well, the decided lack of action at the foul & benighted institution you blindly support. You made a tactical error trying to climb on your personal soap box & starting blathering in this discussion.

The bottom line isn't about political ax grinding, it's about whether Universities are making the right decisions in regards to protecting students.

Remember kids, the "M" stands for Misogyny.

+14 HS
M Man's picture

If you read through this thread, carefully, you'd see a deep division between some fans who are all okay with firing Jon, and others who think it is bullshit.

Reading further on down, you'd see my earlier response to Kyle Rowland, in which I suggested that the exact same division would be seen among Michigan fans if the locale of this story was changed to Ann Arbor.

I'll be interested in a FOIA on the terms of any severance payment to Jon Waters (I'd like it best if he were not discharged; but as it appears pretty clearly that he's being forced out in the name of Title IX, without any apparent real wrongdoing on his part, I expect OSU will pay Waters a shitload of money.  I sort of hope so, and that OSU boosters thereafter remember why such tribute needed to be paid in tribute to Title IX.) 

osu07asu10's picture

A Michigan man on top of his soapbox, ya don't say?

Remember, no matter how justified you feel, your comment and apparent comeuppance all started around two scumbags and a systematic cover up of rape at your esteemed University.

You're better than this M Man

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+11 HS
spqr2008's picture

The problem is that M Man is right.  Without the need for a scapegoat to save jobs in the Diversity, Compliance, Title IX, and police department, as well as the pressure from the DOE OCR list using federally funded loans as a political prod, I think he would have been given another chance at making things right on his own.  Frankly, these kinds of "investigations" are what one expects from a large factionalized bureaucracy when it is under threat from without. Find some target that is not in compliance, and apply zero tolerance, because you can achieve multiple objectives at once:  1) get rid of a band director the college of Music doesn't like because he doesn't have a PhD, 2) make him the face of the Title IX issues at tOSH, 3) make sure all parties to the investigation have a recent "win" so they will receive increased funding and protect their own jobs. And finally 4) use the firing as proof that there is no gambling at Rick's Cafe American (ak Title IX violations at tOSU), which gets rid of any pesky Vichy informants and signals that there is no resistance here.

+14 HS
Nutty's picture

Or maybe the investigation had it right. Regardless of what the culture was when he took over he knew about all the wrong and let it continue. Conspiracy theories get old. If he didn't want to suffer the consequences then he should have stopped all the wrong.

spqr2008's picture

Maybe t he investigation is right.  However, to disregard the motivations of the key actors in said investigation is to blindly accept it.  And at the very least, the BoT should look carefully at what the investigators have done to stop this kind of hazing in the past, as any of them could be covering their own ass.  And if it was a case of CYA, the investigators who did that should be canned too.

+2 HS
Poison nuts's picture

MMan - sorry, I hate personal attacks on this site, but I gotta say - you've really gone downhill as of late my friend. Not only in your commenting substance, but now in your tactics too. Blatantly responding to the first comment here, knowing that everyone would then be forced to read your chest pounding, "look at me - I was right - Gibbons, blibbons, blah blah" horse sh*t is kind of a weak move my friend. But hey, free country - stand on that box & beat that horse.

Edit: I'm not ready to have any opinion one way or another on this firing. I know nothing about the situation, but I do know that jumping up & comparing it to the Gibbons situation in an attempt to validate your opinion on that totally unrelated matter is not cool.

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+14 HS
M Man's picture

You can leave Gibbons out of it for all I care.  It just happened to be the context in which I declared that OSU's date to wrassle with Title IX demons would be coming, soon.

Do you remember what I wrote about all of that?  It was so non-trolling, I can hardly stand it.  I am all over this freaking blog, declaring that I think Urban Meyer is an exemplary disciplinarian.  That OSU game days are the best in the conference.  That TBDBITL is basically just that.  When I predicted a coming Title IX scandal at OSU, I said (usually in the same sentence) that it absolutely won't be because of any deficiency in Urban Meyer's football program or Gene Smith's athletic administration.  It will be because of the unreal pressure coming from Washington.

Don't you think this is all sort of freaky?  A Michigan booster; a member of the Victors' Club; standing up for the OSU Director of Bands?  Trying to defend your program from the shockingly transparent interference from Washington?

I could not have hoped for a better case study.  I am not kidding.  We don't have a sobbing coed claiming rape in a police station at 3am and a star athlete preparing to play in a playoff game, with two wildly different he-said-she-said stories that no one can sort out, to muddy up the picture. No; what we have is a clinically pure recitation of p.c. academic bureau-speak; mentioning Title IX in every fourth paragraph. 

+8 HS
ibuck's picture

By my interpretation, M-Man, it seems you think the reason this happened is because the current administration is enforcing the law that most Americans want. The behavior uncovered by OSU's investigation are actions that are unlawful, and, at the very least, disrespectful to the people involved, regardless of their gender. And that behavior has to stop—not be toned down—but eliminated completely. People unwilling to change untenable behavior often blame the enforcers rather than the society that wants the change. To me, calling it Political Correctness is symptomatic of resistance to change. 

I won't be surprised if individual band members are also disciplined, including dismissal from the band, or even the university. This bs has to stop—everywhere.

Our honor defend, we will fight to the end !

If you can't win your conference, just quietly accept your non-playoff bowl game.

-2 HS
OfficerRabbit's picture

I'll accept all the DV's that come with this, but I'm pretty solidly in MMan's corner on this issue. Generally speaking, tOSU couldn't afford to let any wisp of this story hit national media without a) getting in front of it, and b) firing someone of note. Blame Title IX, blame the national media, blame the PC culture which everyone lives in now, this sort of thing absolutely WILL happen more and more often across the entire college landscape. Simply put, the potential backlash for not shaking things up far outweighs the risk of prematurely firing a person with authority or a "figure" of authority. Twenty, even ten years ago, Waters would have likely gotten a stern reprimand and a chance to rectify all the wrongs, perceived or otherwise. Present day, just hope you're not in charge when any illicit allegations come forth, as you're guilty until proven innocent in most situations. Its a no-win situation for both faculty and the institutions involved.

 

 

+4 HS
Poison nuts's picture

MMan - my biggest issue is that there were already a good number of comments made when you made your reply comment. Instead of posting your comment in order, or even as a reply to someone who referenced Title-IX, you replied to the very first comment. A person who had only said "WOW". That is the tactic I did not personally appreciate, because it reeks of pushing an agenda & self servitude. Whether you are right or wrong about what took place can be discussed amongst others - but I was not enthused about the Gibbons comparison & the manner in which you went about getting the message out. You need to know that my thoughts on this have nothing to do with the team you root for. That is of zero concern to me in regards to my the matter at hand. This is not a UM vs OSU matter. If you're over this blog, that's too bad. I really used to admire the stuff you said here, even if I didn't agree. You were always a solid contributor. Since the Gibbons thing happened, you have had a serious axe to grind & take every opportunity to grind it. Only a person who signed up here very recently doesn't know your feelings on that matter. Now we have another reminder about how you feel & how you knew it would happen at OSU...it's all been a bit much. I've spoken my piece, I have no ill will toward you - just what you're doing in this thread. BTW I didn't DV anything (even though some of it is straight up political) I've read on this thread, and that's about it.

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+3 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

Dr. Drake said that Title IX is a reason for this, specifically the part that mandates companies and universities to stifle and avoid institutionalized sexual harassment that results in a hostile workplace. So... why is that a bad thing?

As a former athlete in a sport that was cut at many universities due to the "equal funding" part of Title IX, I understand why it gets a bad rap. But the part that avoids sexual harassment should absolutely not be regarded as a bad thing in any way whatsoever.

Title IX does a lot of very good things and prevents hostile work environments. People have a right to a work environment where they will not be harassed and humiliated. That is the purpose of Title IX. Like any legislation, it is not perfect, but complaining about it in a huge "I told you so" rant isn't really a good idea.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+5 HS
Scott's picture

MMan, I'm not mad about anything that you said; I just don't like that you replied to the first comment five hours later and with no actual connection to it so that your comment would be viewed first. Poor form.

Class of 2008

+9 HS
M Man's picture

Nothing else matters in this story.  Nothing.  This story begins and ends with the new initiatives following Assistant Secretary Russlyn Ali's "Dear Colleague" letter in 2011.  It is surely the reason why this investigation was undertaken, when it was undertaken, and why Jon Waters had to be martyred to the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights.

I looked for a place to put my comment, and nobody had advanced this angle.  So I did.  And I wanted it to be loud.  This whole discussion needs to take place under the overhang of the Obama Administration's working of Title IX.

And actually, I probably shouldn't say that "nothing else matters" in terms of thread comments.  I like very much the input from former band members.  What they say means a good bit to me, although none of it is dispositive under Title IX or the Clery Act.

Scott's picture

What is it now: five, six political comments in one thread? People used to get banned for stuff like this.

Class of 2008

M Man's picture

Scott, this stuff is mentioned, explicitly, in the 23-page report published by the Dispatch!  Did you read the report?

Here's a quote (I could pick out any of about 10 or 20 different paragraphs; I have selected the one that cites the exact same letter I referenced two posts above.):

More recently, OCR’s April 4, 2011 Dear Colleague Letter states that: “Title IX also prohibits 
gender-based harassment, which may include acts of verbal, nonverbal, or physical aggression, 
intimidation, or hostility based on sex or sex-stereotyping, even if those acts do not involve conduct 
of a sexual nature.” 

Page 14 of the report.

+2 HS
logamaniac's picture

Maybe I'm just tired but I can't help but think that you're mildly retarded.

Theres no top secret conspiracy to utilize title ix,  this investigation was started due to a complaint made by one of the people involved.  An investigation was composed and completed at which point it was determined that an administrator did not act in accordance with the expectations of his position.  Seems pretty cut and dry i really think you're reading too much into it.

-7 HS
M Man's picture

No; with all due respect, I discussed much of this at greater length in some of the threads arising around the time of the publication of the leaked letter concerning Brendan Gibbons' expulsion at Michigan.

The basic outline is this:

  • In April of 2011, Assistant Secretary of Education for Civil Rights Russlyn Ali (a White House appointee; an extension of White House political policy and not a career Ed. Dept. lawyer) signed off on the "Dear Colleague" letter that was promptly published at White House.gov; Vice Persident Biden and Secretary of Education Arne Duncan immediately went about the business of throwing White House weight behind it. 
  • The letter sent shockwaves through higher education; it was taken (correctly) as a stern warning that institutions faced a real and present danger of the loss of federal education dollars (hundreds of millions) if they did not promptly adopt new sexual harassment reporting and enforcement policies in accord with the letter.
  • I'd like to point you to a number of scathing conservative commentaries on the policy change.  I'll refrain from that.  Instead, here's the progressive Chronicle of Higher Education on the subject.
  • If you've read the OSU Marching Band investigative report, you'll know that the report specifically cited the "Dear Colleague" letter as a basis for new enforcement scrutiny (p. 14, as I have mentioned below in another comment).
  • It is the Title IX pressure that is so meaningful in these cases.  The Ohio State University might easily have done what Wisconsin did in 2008; issue a band-wide punishment, demand an accounting and better management from the director, and move on.  But now, OSU isn't just trying to do the right thing in its own judgment; it is operating under a threat of a withdrawal of all manner of federal funding and support from the Department of Education.  It is not such a stretch, to think that OSU made its own calculation this week; fire Jon Waters (and pay him a large financial settlement) or risk a much greater loss in sanctions from the feds with lost federal dollars, and a terrible public relations war with the Department of Justice.  
  • I am not imagining any "top secret conspiracy" at all.  The Obama Administration has been open about this political initiative.  They very happily "own" it.  Doubtless, they regard it as good electoral politics.  They are even rather open about the origins of the policy -- publicized cases involving collegiate athletes in particular -- beginning with the Missouri football scandal, and continuing to the present where the Department of Justice went out of its (probably unprecedented) way to list 50 or more suspect institutions, including Michigan and Ohio State.
+3 HS
BuckeyeVet's picture

My neice was a 5 year sousaphone player & "I" dotter who was in the band last fall. I'm looking forward to hearing her take on Waters being fired, etc....  I also know that some band members are 11W members and I would like to hear what they think.

Addendum as of 7/25/14 4:45 pm : Her take, on the record  "He is being blamed for years of tradition that he tried harder than anyone to fix. Unfair and unwarranted."

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."          - Groucho Marx

 

+9 HS
buckeyedude's picture

I would also be interested to hear what she has to say. Have her create a name and have her post it in the forum, if she has time, on 11W.

 

 

+2 HS
toad1204's picture

What the....

Nothing like dancing on the field in 02... 

+2 HS
jeremytwoface's picture

Um....

I'm kind of speechless.... What the hell is going on?

The first man gets the ((((Oyster)))), the second man gets the shell.

+7 HS
yrro's picture

What the hell...

I know a lot of people in band. Nothing in that report was hidden from anyone remotely connected to the band... it was all part of the fun, college-student atmosphere of the group. Traditions dating back decades. If they think changing in front of other students is such a travesty wait until they talk to the theatre department :P

Sounds like one rookie had a stick up their butt.

+10 HS
nikolajz1's picture

If even one person feels sexually harassed it is serious. Who cares about tradition if it involves hazing. 

-1 HS
yrro's picture

As far as "hazing" goes, embarrassing nicknames and silly underwear parties are pretty darn weak.

I agree that the fake blowjob thing was over the line.

+13 HS
1stYrBuckIClub's picture

I don't know if this matters, but I believe it wasn't a fake blowjob, but a lap dance where she faked an orgasm... And although this girl didn't didn't think it was fair changing on a bus in front of men, when I was in band, the ladies got the bus, and the men had to change outside... in October...So the guys changing on the bus is actually being fair to both parties. 

+1 HS
Citrus's picture

That might be a standard that is a bit too high. Some people feel sexually harassed if you say hello. 

+19 HS
Mizzillion's picture

This wasn't "Hello".

From the Dispatch....

Some other traditions: All new band members, or “rookies,” were given nicknames, many of which were sexually explicit. Rookies were forced to perform “tricks” on command. In one case, a female student was told to imitate a sexual act on the laps of other band members, including her brother.

+15 HS
Citrus's picture

I didn't say it was. I read the report. I was commenting that the determining factor as to whether sexual harassment is serious or not can't be whether one person was offended. My argument was separate from what occurred here. 

+7 HS
spqr2008's picture

One of the things the Dear Colleague letter changed was the standard of sexual harassment from what a reasonable person would think to what t h e victim considers it to be.

+4 HS
hit_the_couch's picture

Yeah, college students sexually harassing one another just ins't normal.

And then I told her...i'm no weatherman, but tonight's forecast is calling for several inches!

+4 HS
weirdscience's picture

"Oh, Mommy, so-and-so called me a bad name! Fire his boss!" This whole thing sounds like the product of helicopter parenting to me. While I need to read more about the situation, I have a feeling that my definition of sexual harassment deviates significantly from that of THE increasingly-politically correct Ohio State University. 

+3 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Sounds like one rookie had a trombone stick up their butt.

Fixed that for you...

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+11 HS
yrro's picture

In the context of allegations of sexual harassment, I was trying to avoid that comparison.

+2 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Sorry, it was just so there for the taking...plate me a fastball and I'm taking it deep to left center

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+6 HS
yrro's picture

I get you --- I wrote it and deleted it myself three times ;-)

+4 HS
osu07asu10's picture

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+7 HS
bbb's picture

you and your backwards, high school gym teacher opinion are a disgrace

-10 HS
yrro's picture

So, the funny thing about sexual harassment is consent.

I'd wager pretty strongly that the vast majority of the people subjected to this harassment consented to it, and were slightly embarrassed, but generally thought it was funny. That has been the overwhelming opinion I have received from talking to members of the band. It would have been my opinion if I was in the band.

The real institutional level question - how were the people who were legitimately offended, and not consenting to it, treated? And how were their complaints received by Waters and the other band leaders/culture?

There's a line somewhere. I think the sexually explicit tricks involving another person (note: the vast majority of tricks were not like that) went over it. I don't think embarrassing nicknames did. I don't think the completely voluntary silliness of the underwear ramp did. It sounds like most of the time the bus games did not, but occasionally they sound like they did.

+4 HS
I_Run_The_Dave's picture

The funny thing about consent is that, in regards to sexual harassment, is that nobody asks for it.  You only know if it is given after you don't get sued over a comment you make, or an activity you participate in.

I guarantee you that people participate in the midnight ramp who do not want to.  Why?  Because they don't want to be shunned for not participating or for being a prude.  They want to be a part of one of the most prestigious traditions at OSU, and the most famous marching band in the world so they put up with it.  The existence of the midnight ramp, whether voluntary or not, constitutes a hostile environment which is the very definition of sexual harassment.  It has no place at OSU.

+9 HS
ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

I agree with The Dave... and having been a part of a drum & bugle corp, and other organized sports where hazing was considered part of the accepted culture, I can say without a doubt that the currency of 'fun' has two sides to the coin where the 'fun' is too often at the expense of the powerless/new/timid members, and really is no different than bullying on a 'less-than-intended' level.  There will be some who would be ostracized and unjustly alienated for not being part of the 'herd'.  The bottom line is that fun and team building can be done in more productive ways than to choose the lowest common denominator.

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

+6 HS
Ohio Guy in Jersey's picture

Consent? How does someone consent to sexual harassment? Generally the person being harassed is in a position of weakness and fears speaking up. That's what harassers count on - the fear of the victim and the group backing them up.

The idea that college students are too stupid to understand that this is wrong is not a surprise. The problem comes from leadership ignoring it. Sounds like that's what Waters did, which is unfortunate because the guy clearly has talent.

+6 HS
yrro's picture

Someone groping, catcalling, or pantsing you by surprise is hard to consent to. Agreeing to perform a sexualized trick on command is exactly the sort of you think are consenting to. There may be pressure to do it, or you may think "that's embarrassing but hilarious, sure" and go along. The fact that you *did* the trick is in no way proof that there was no consent.

+1 HS
goodlifesean's picture

What occurs in student run organizations is one thing, but Waters had a responsibility. As an educator and coach it is my responsibility to stop this crap and not let it go on in my presence. If Waters failed to say knock the s*** off and punish the hazers he is wrong. There is no room for any intimidation in team group settings. And the assumption is correct that victims consent due to fear and pressure. Whistle Blowers don't expose brand new situations.

Always prepare for and expect victory, don't brace for defeat. If defeat happens learn and never let it happen again.

+5 HS
Davep160's picture

Although I am sad about his skill set leaving the university,  Sexual Harassment is not freaking cool.

+13 HS
d5k's picture

Please read the article before commenting.  He did not sexually harass people.  This is a hazing scandal with "sexual nicknames" and a tradition of marching in underwear.

+4 HS
logamaniac's picture

he didn't accuse waters of sexually harassing anyone.  if YOU were to reread the article you might see that waters was dismissed because of his lackadaisical approach to the allegations of sexual harassment among some other things.  Regardless of how intense the harassment waters was aware it was going on and in the university's eyes didn't do what he should have done to stop or prevent it.

+6 HS
BeijingBucks's picture

yeah but dude could script a march.  That zelda bit still blows (ulp!) my mind

 

 

None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. ~ John Milton

+7 HS
faux_maestro's picture

And Jerry Sandusky could design a defense. 

Inní mér syngur vitleysingur

+1 HS
BuckeyeVet's picture

Ouch.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."          - Groucho Marx

 

+1 HS
cajunbuckeye's picture

Wow, someone was raping children in the shower? I missed that part of the report.

An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches

-1 HS
rdubs's picture

If you think the PSU situation didn't impact this situation you are being a bit naive.  After seeing PSU and JoePa get destroyed for turning a blind eye to some awful sexual activity, the OSU administrators were determined not to have any similar repeat here.  It would be one thing if this were a small group of friends in the band that were calling each other ridiculous names and joking in this manner, but these activities seem pretty institutionalized into the fabric of the band.  I am glad they took a hardline because it is easy to see how this would create a hostile environment.  The director should have nipped it in the bud before something truly awful happened, he didn't so the administrators took action.

+6 HS
logamaniac's picture

or maybe the administration was determined to do what they felt was right, absent of thought regarding PSU.  Thats what I choose to believe.

+1 HS
cajunbuckeye's picture

I'm naive about very little, RDUBS. There is one fact that I've learned through living, "you don't have to take shit from anybody." College students, involved in a group activity, that allow themselves to be subjected to various types of harassment are a far cry from a defenseless child that is physically abused by an adult.

An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches

+1 HS
Alex Boones Liver's picture

Hopefully his defense is fully functional while he showers with his entire cellblock...

+1 HS
Idaho Helga's picture

Be honest: If any of us at our place of employment looked the other way at any one of the worse things discovered to be going on we would be fired from our jobs.  The university had no choice.  This wasn't some isolated incident handled badly.

It is sad and unfortunate for everyone involved and I am certainly no prude but this clearly is way, way over the line.

+7 HS
Chardo's picture

You left out where these "sexual nicknames" involved sexual tricks including (which this is disgusting) one woman being asked to give her brother a lap dance and pretend to orgasm. 

I love what Mr. Waters brought to the band on the field recently but if you read the entire report it's clear that he was too scared to stand up to the student leaders. He had been promoted from within the band; he was one of those students at one time and *most likely* enjoyed being the "cool" boss who had been "one of us" in the view of the students. While Waters should be blamed I would personally prefer seeing the student leaders of these sections be completely removed from the band. They are the individuals who have encouraged acts that have left others feeling mistreated. All of these traditions could be continued to a degree if they were handled in a positive and encouraging light, not by fear.

OSU Graduate 2014

+1 HS
weirdscience's picture

Wow, I feel so relieved now that you have assessed this situation from your *obviously* omniscient vantage point. 

+2 HS
Chardo's picture

Thanks for the sarcasm. I'm allowed to have my opinion whether you agree with it or not. I stated my opinion based upon the report which has been proven to be the extreme of the situation. That said, I stand by the majority of my comments. Waters was fired for not standing up for what he says should have been changed.
 

With that said, I truly hope you aren't actually in a position of leadership because if you are you might need to review your process on how you analyze and handle situations because it's a tad childish currently.

OSU Graduate 2014

MikeNugents BigToe's picture

Must be a very serious culture issue to have an investigation resulting in a firing and a message from the new president. Hopefully this moves the band in a positive direction and doesn't add too much embarrassment to former band members. TBDBITL forever.

"Remember that 55 yarder against Marshall?" -Not Mike Nugent

+6 HS
d5k's picture

Now THAT is Title IX overreach.  If you investigated practically any group like this you could find this much "evidence" and fire leaders of great organizations all over the country.

-10 HS
DJ Byrnes's picture

Californian by birth, Marionaire by the Grace of President Warren G. Harding.

d5k's picture

College students drink and say offensive things to each other.  Personally I do not think we need to fire Jon Waters because of those facts.

This also makes me sad as a Doctor Who fan.

+5 HS
faux_maestro's picture

Read the story. One female had been given a sexual nickname and he called her by that nickname. The director of a group like TBDBITL CAN NOT participate in something like that. 

Inní mér syngur vitleysingur

+21 HS
Ohio Guy in Jersey's picture

Cannot participate and must try to stop it. Sounds like Waters turned a blind eye, at best.

+4 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Personally I do not think we need to fire Jon Waters because of those facts.

Well the good thing is they didn't fire Waters because of those facts.

They fired him because he enabled, fostered, and had direct knowledge of a culture for students to drink and say offensive things to each other.

It is one thing if it happens. It is another if a leader MAY have knowledge. It is a completely different situation where a leader enables, witnesses, and encourages such behaviors.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+11 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

There is a huge, huuuuuuuuge difference between college students getting joking around at a house party and a large-scale, institutional culture of sexual harassment.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+12 HS
ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

Have we not learned from JoePa from the Sandusky trial at all?  No, Waters did not directly sexually assault anyone, but he sure as hell didn't do anything to change the culture either.  Standing by and allowing someone be dehumanized for the sake of tradition/team spirit makes a leader as culpable as the initiators of the act (in my book), and is no different than telling someone who becomes victimized, that hey, it's all ok now, because you're in the club for being quiet and complicit (so shut-up and accept it).

If we want to make the example more personal, if you had a child or someone you cared for on the receiving end of this, would you sit idly by and let it happen without recourse?

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

+14 HS
FitzBuck's picture

This is exactly why action was needed.  Well done.  

(I will miss his innovative mind set in regards to the half time shows.  Some things are more important) 

Fitzbuck | Toledo - Ohio's right armpit | "A troll by any other name is still a troll".

+2 HS
buckeyedude's picture

My only question is: How long has this been going on, and is Waters the fall guy for a "tradition" that has been happening for decades, maybe? And if so, why wasn't this addressed a LONG time ago? Why now?

 

 

+5 HS
Veraton's picture

So that makes it ok? Because everyone else is doing it?

As a recent Alumni I am glad the University took quick action in getting rid of Waters.  I love the band as much as anyone but this type of culture is NOT ok, it never was and it never will be.  Just because programs across the country get away with it doesn't make the practice "ok".  We need to stop making excuses for this behavior.  You can sit and claim it's all in good fun but every student band member deserves to enjoy their time and if a culture is affecting that then it has no place in any institution especially one as highly regarded as ours. 

+6 HS
d5k's picture

Basically he is getting fired for not addressing every borderline uncomfortable tradition within the band and apparently for swearing during practice (mic up coach Coombs and see what you hear...).  If you want to change the culture, firing this guy will not accomplish that goal.

-1 HS
Veraton's picture

I stated this in a previous post on here but I am OSU grad in my 20's with a sister in her 20's.  Do you have a sister?  In no way would I be happy or find it acceptable of a culture that forced my sister to pretend to give me a blow job. That alone for me is enough to show there is a problem and leadership should be changed.  Maybe Waters came into a situation where this was already the culture but that doesn't make it any less excusable that he didn't try to change it and this is still going on.   Maybe firing him isn't the complete answer but it also doesn't help to leave him in place when he has enabled it.

+8 HS
Tommy's picture

Dude read the report, nobody was pretending to give a blow job

-10 HS
charles's picture

The witness also stated that one physical challenge included in a midterm required new Band 
members to either place a condom on a banana, place a banana in his or her mouth and place a condom on it, or place a banana between a graduate assistant’s legs and place a condom on the banana.

Thoughts Tommy?

+5 HS
Tommy's picture

That wasn't what Veraton was referring to, but sorry I got involved in this

-6 HS
JohnnyKozmo's picture

Uhh-putting on a condom on a banana is a blowjob?  Man, I've been missing out all these years!!! What the heck have I been asking for??

Chardo's picture

What Veraton is specifically referring to is the sister who has required to give her brother a lap dance and pretend to orgasm. I also have an older sister and just hearing this story makes me cringe. Not only would it be extremely uncomfortable and awkward for me, it would be 10x worse for your sister.

OSU Graduate 2014

Ohio Guy in Jersey's picture

I bet it will go a long way to changing that culture.

+2 HS
yrro's picture

I think a better question is - why address this by firing him?

This isn't something that was new with him. It wasn't something that came to a head with a specific incident like with FAMU. It wasn't even something that was unusual with regard to marching bands in general.

Moreover, it is something that would have met *massive* resistance from within the band and the band alumni if he had tried to change it when he started the job.

So my question is, if they want to make this large change to band culture, what does firing him do that an internal ultimatum would not? Or was an internal ultimatum given and then ignored?

It feels very out of the blue, like the administration did this investigation and said "OMG, the band has dirty lyrics to the fight songs!" as if it were a new thing. If you want to change band culture, that's fine... it's the whole shock aspect of this that makes no sense to me.

+7 HS
osu07asu10's picture

It was his laissez-faire attitude about trying to change the culture at all. There were numerous opportunities to impact the culture since he took over, most notably when Pam Bork – Senior Physical Therapist, Student Health Services brought to his attention abuse of alcohol and a potentially hostile environment.

Heck, when he was questioned by compliance, he volunteered to provide a list of efforts he will make/has made to address the band's culture. More than 10 days after that, when questioned for the list he claimed his computer had malfunctioned and the list was lost. It took him an additional 3 days to provide the list.

When compliance is investigating you, you don't drag your feet in trying to satisfy them.  Throughout the investigation he demonstrated an unwillingness to be proactive about culture change.

Change starts at the top, and you can't effectively implement change if the leader of the program is unwilling to participate. 

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+6 HS
yrro's picture
-1 HS
spqr2008's picture

Actually if compliance is investigating you, you are far better off lawyering up and finding dirt that can destroy their lives, because they will not hesitate to be completely illogical in their findings if you are not liked by them, their friends or someone else in power.  Most Compliance departments only understand the hammer.

+4 HS
Citrus's picture

I don't understand how this comment is trolling. Guy expressed an opinion that wasn't overtly political. 
We don't want this site to be pulled into a group think orbit. 

+6 HS
d5k's picture

I suppose just saying the words "title IX" was a mistake.  But I stick by my opinion.

bbb's picture

your opinion is disgusting and is exactly what's wrong with Penn State fanboy culture

-10 HS
d5k's picture

Wow, I'm pretty sure Jerry Sandusky has replaced Nazi Germany in the Godwin's law of internet discussions of sports scandals.

+4 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

I don't agree with D5K but comparing his opinion to what happened at PSU is unacceptable. Yes this is a travesty but it is in no way close to what went down with Sandusky!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+9 HS
ELJTSA76's picture

That is disappointing news. I don't know enough to comment any more than that, but . . . Wow. 

+3 HS
sharks's picture

After Florida A&M, I'd imagine there is zero tolerance for hazing activities in bands...

The postgame show is brought to you by... Christ, I can't find it. The hell with it...

+12 HS
2002osubuck's picture

That's exactly right. A lot of "traditions" are out of date and don't have merit in the modern age.

FitzBuck's picture
....not all traditions stand the test of time.  Paddling freshman in the 70s = tradition.....in 2014 it's assault.  
I still love "Dazed and Confused"....and TBDBITL

Fitzbuck | Toledo - Ohio's right armpit | "A troll by any other name is still a troll".

+3 HS
OfficerRabbit's picture

Funny, I had a pretty similar experience going into H.S, albeit that was in 2000, not the 70's. 

Chalk up another fun tradition to the Wussification of America, where everyone gets a trophy and the majority lives by the rules of the minority. 

 

 

+1 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Well Drake didn't take anytime getting his feet wet...

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+7 HS
shadybuck's picture

he's just tryin to stay alive and take care of his people, sh*t don't come with trophies

+6 HS
builderofcoalitions's picture

Though it's hard to believe, I'm glad the university did the right thing here. Hazing and sexual harassment have no place at Ohio State.

Because we couldn't go for three.

+13 HS
Mortc15's picture

Hazing and sexual harassment have no place at Anywhere Ohio State

There you go. 

Buck-I4Life

+9 HS
builderofcoalitions's picture

Yeah, that too.

Because we couldn't go for three.

DrSpaceman's picture

What a way to have to start his tenure here. Sorry that this was one of the first things Dr. Drake had to do after arriving on campus.

"Medicine is not a science" - Leo Spaceman

+10 HS
ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

I'm sorry for him, but also think this was a great opportunity for the alums and the student body to see that we got a good one in Dr. Drake.  I like his adoption of a zero-tolerance approach, and he is well-spoken and intentful in his delivery.  

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

+4 HS
Tater_Schroeder's picture

I'm really not looking forward to hearing the announcers on ESPN mention this every time the band Dots the i.

How Firm Thy Friendship

+21 HS
DLB1276's picture

"One time, at band camp..."

+19 HS
osu07asu10's picture

I went with the clean version of this GIF,..given the circumstances...

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+17 HS
buckeyeEddie27's picture

Aaaand ESPN's servers crash in 3, 2, 1......

I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.

+10 HS
Citrus's picture

I am suspect of language like "zero tolerance for … behavior that creates a hostile environment." Zero tolerance means that things aren't considered. I don't think zero tolerance is appropriate for an university in many instances. Discussions need to be fairly free-flowing. Students should feel they can communicate ideas others might not like. Ideas may make students uncomfortable. Thats all part of learning. 

Sexual harassment is a nuanced concept. It doesn't seem proper to make such a thing "zero tolerance." Perhaps its just talking point filler. 

I miss Gee. 

+15 HS
bbb's picture

Gee was an appeaser and snake oil salesman

-10 HS
Citrus's picture

Time magazine's opinion was that he was the best university president in the country. 

+24 HS
bbb's picture

and Time magazine touted Putin as Person of the Year 2007

TheBadOwl's picture

To be fair, they also said I was the Person of the Year in 2006, and I'm a pretty shitty human being.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+13 HS
Unky Buck's picture

There needs to be a bit of humor on these comments to relieve the tension. Good job, Owl

...

+4 HS
buckeyedude's picture

You're just an owl.

 

 

+1 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Wait, you said owl, never mind...

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+12 HS
cronimi's picture

Time's person of the year isn't necessarily a good person, just the person with the most influence or made the most news (according to Time). I think Bin Ladin was the POTY in 2002. The designation means nothing.

+8 HS
buckeyedude's picture

They also had Adolf Hitler as Person of the Year. So there's that.

 

 

+2 HS
3GB's picture

Just a quick comment here since I have connections with the OSUMB - but all of the stuff in the report has been going on for *decades* and is considered within the band as the band culture.  It's not like Waters just started letting things run rampant out of nowhere.  In fact, Waters was considered by some members to actually have dialed back the "traditions" to the point of annoyance, especially after the recent rise in fame due to some of the big news halftime shows.  

Not saying the traditions are all good, but there is no hazing/violence like what was found with the FAMU incident.

Suffice it to say this is coming as a big shock to band members.

+26 HS
d5k's picture

The culture is basically the culture of college life put into a fishbowl.  There are aspects of college life that when aggregated into a report can look bad.  Firing Jon Waters does nothing to change the college culture at places like Ohio State.

+12 HS
Chip's picture

It may not change the college culture, but it will certainly change the band's culture, which based on the report, is a good thing.

+3 HS
yrro's picture

Exactly. Either someone with connections suddenly decided to complain, or the university decided internally that it needed to change things. Because this definitely isn't a new thing, and isn't a Waters thing.

+8 HS
bbb's picture

It isn't new or a Waters thing but he's complicit in not preventing it from occurring. You seem to be the type that would defend jo pa if you were a PSU fan

-11 HS
yrro's picture

Yes, because there is no difference between *RAPING YOUNG BOYS* and having an embarrassingly sexual nickname.

+7 HS
bbb's picture

I never claimed they were the same, just your blindly supportive opinion of Dear Leader is the same as PSU fanboys

-10 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

please, stop referring to PSU. this is twice you have brought that crap up. Just stop!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+8 HS
d5k's picture

This is like double Godwin's law with Sandusky and Kim Jong Un references.  Not sure why you can't have a rational discussion but at least you are consistent.

+3 HS
Buckeye Chuck's picture

I do recall from my student days that the members of TBDBITL could get pretty insane. But whatever happened to lead to this, it had to be really major for someone to get fired over it. 

While this is obviously an investigation that predates the new administration, most casual observers of the university will see this as Drake's first big decision. So I hope he's confident in his judgment. The first successors to Gordon Gee simply couldn't win with a lot of people, and this latest successor has just done something that's likely to be quite unpopular, regardless of what the facts are.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

+5 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

Yep, and I won't be at all surprised when the wrongful termination lawsuit commences. Which we all know will happen.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

+2 HS
Chip's picture

Wrongful termination suit?  LOL.  That would last about two seconds before OSU was granted summary judgment.

-2 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

Except for the fact that the previous director allowed this situation to exist (under Title IX, no less) for a lot longer than Waters did and didn't get fired. That seems arbitrary and capricious.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

+3 HS
Chip's picture

Are you honestly trying to argue that the law requires an institution to continue employing somebody who promotes a sexualized culture among students simply because they've done so in the past?  Yeah, that's now how it works.  Even if Waters were not an at-will employee, this is the most obvious for-cause firing in history.

-2 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

No. I'm not arguing that at all. What I am trying to say, though, is that one could make an argument (perhaps not a winning one, but there are a lot of really good lawyers out there who could take a crack at it) that progressive measures to change the culture - that is as old as the band itself - were being taken, and that instead of firing the employee, other measures may have been taken as an alternative. The fact that there were no other inquiries from the compliance department than the one that led to his firing could be construed as caprice.

Look, wrongful termination suits usually lose. All I am saying is that in today's world, people sue for all kinds of dumb reasons. Having a sexual harassment incident on your resume is a stone-cold-blooded career killer. That alone makes it worth the shot for a skilled attorney.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

+1 HS
simpson203's picture

My college roommate was a TBDBITL member, as well as several friends.  Nothing mentioned in the article is new; I heard about it when I was at tOSU (99-04).  My take: the University has known about this stuff, Drake is just trying to make a statement.

+8 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

My freshman year RA (1981 - GAWD, I'm old) was in TBDBITL, and you're right - everything in the report squares with my recollection of his accounts.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

+2 HS
logamaniac's picture

this was just drake making a statement about the findings and outcome from an investigation that both began and ended before he took office.  he had nothing to do with this.

GoBucks713's picture

What is it with Marching Bands in Central Ohio. First the asswipe Assitant Director in Newark is fooling around with girls, the Treasurer for Watkins Memorial's Band Boosters stole $67k for strip clubs and vacations, and now this?

-The Aristocrats!

-1 HS
d5k's picture

Please describe what you mean by "now this".  And also consider sports team's scandals such as Steubenville in the context of your stereotyping bands as if these cases have anything in common other than involving young people misbehaving.

-10 HS
GoBucks713's picture

Well, having a daughter that marches for the Pride of Newark, and being an alumnus of Watkins Memorial Bands AND a volunteer for the band, I believe I have the ability to express whatever emotion I choose about the situation with Marching Bands in Central Ohio. So please, don't think of this as "stereotyping", but having a factually based AND emotionally connected opinion on both of these situations.

-The Aristocrats!

+9 HS
simpson203's picture

This stuff is nothing different than what happens when you put any large group of college kids together where comraderi is an essential.  Maybe some of this stuff crosses the line, most of it sounds worse than it really is.

+1 HS
Chip's picture

I would say just about all of it crosses the line.

+1 HS
logamaniac's picture

regardless if you feel the band members were over the line or just misunderstood the problem is that the administration cannot support that type of behavior let alone participate in it.  He had a duty to be a responsible administrator and if the allegations are true (or true enough to result in his dismissal) then obviously he failed in that regard to live up to the responsibilities of his position.

TedGinnIsFasterThanYou's picture

Mod:  Please keep 11W politic free

Brace yourself for more issues like this. I bet in the end, this band director being fired ---- will turn out to be something so minor and inconsequential. So sick of the PC culture today where even innocent jokes are misconstrued.

-6 HS
Veraton's picture

I am curious to know where you draw the line between overly politically correct? Sexual names sure an innocent joke, making someones sister imitate a blow job in the lap of her brother... not so much.  Do you have a sister? I am a recent OSU grad in my 20's with a sister also in her 20's and I don't think I am being PC at all in saying I wouldn't be happy being in the situation, college students or no college students not acceptable.

+7 HS
Hovenaut's picture

"Brace yourself for more issues like this."

I honestly hope not.

The reactions are varied on this, understandable.

However, some of the sentiments being expressed here are not.

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I am not very smart.

+2 HS
Poison nuts's picture

Bing - again!

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+2 HS
Nappy's picture

I thought this was satire at first.

Fan of bacon since 1981

Fatpants's picture

Sexualized culture?

Drake's head is going to explode if he ever really finds out what life in the dorms is REALLY like.

+9 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

As someone who's a little over a year removed from the dorms, I can assure you that dorm life at OSU isn't a constant drunken orgy. There is drinking, people have sex, whatever, but there's nothing resembling a culture of sexual harassment. The RA's and hall directors, and OSU housing as a whole, do not tolerate any kind of harassment, and they promote a culture of acceptance and respect towards our fellow Buckeyes.

Read the report, the things going on are unacceptable. This isn't Drake being prudish or saying that anything sexual is overly vulgar, it's a culture of harassment and hazing based on "tradition" that made some band members very uncomfortable and resulted in one getting alcohol poisoning.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+7 HS
osu07asu10's picture

As someone who's a little over a year removed from the dorms, I can assure you that dorm life at OSU isn't a constant drunken orgy. There is drinking, people have sex, whatever, but there's nothing resembling a culture of sexual harassment.

3rd Floor Park Hall was most certainly pretty much a constant drunken orgy! But we all turned out just fine...

The RA's and hall directors, and OSU housing as a whole, do not tolerate any kind of harassment, and they promote a culture of acceptance and respect towards our fellow Buckeyes.

I will 100% agree with and back this up. OSU Housing is serious business and they do a wonderful job of making sure students are provided a safe environment to grow and succeed. There was no harassment of any kind on our floor, and wouldn't have been tolerated if it did bubble up.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+4 HS
bbb's picture

I have a close friend who was harrassed in a dorm and the hall director and the one person on campus whose job it was to enforce restrictions on stalking/harrassment all tried to brush it under the rug. OSU has a bad history when it comes to dealing with harrassment
 

-10 HS
osu07asu10's picture

That's surprising to me. My freshman year, there was a mutual attraction between the girl RA on my floor and myself. We harmlessly flirted and I passed out on her futon because my room was locked on Mirror Lake night and it is tough to hold BuckID/keys in a pair of boxers...

Low and behold, I was sitting in the Hall Director's office hungover as shit the next morning to discuss the inappropriateness of "our" decisions. Even though nothing legitimately happened, it took some pretty serious convincing not to punish the RA and to not re-assign me to a different floor.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+4 HS
bbb's picture

It doesn't surprise me that there is variation in how issues are handled across a university of 50k+ students
 

-6 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Agreed, but you painted a broad stroke when you said:

OSU has a bad history when it comes to dealing with harrassment

In my experiences, they are pretty darn serious about harassment. At least as it pertains to student housing.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+8 HS
Denny's picture

As someone who's a little over a year removed from the dorms, I can assure you that dorm life at OSU isn't a constant drunken orgy.

Don't say things like these. Every time someone says a thing like these, a President Holbrook gets their wings.

Taquitos.

+13 HS
AndyVance's picture

Well, she did try to warn us about stuff like this...

+4 HS
Buckeyeneer's picture

Thank God she saved us from the horrors that came with the closing of Lane Avenue on game day.

"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes

THE Ohio State University

+1 HS
Urban Nation Army's picture

I lived in two different dorms in two different areas of campus each of the last two academic years. Nothing from my experience there comes close to what is detailed in this report. So I'm curious if you could elaborate on what you're referring to?

Bet you can't say "Bert Bielma is a bumbling buffoon" five times fast.

Fatpants's picture

That when you put a bunch of kids in their late teens/early twenties in close proximity for any length of time dirty jokes get made, things get said, stuff can get crazy. 

I'm not insinuating that dorm life is a nonstop orgy, but its way more lively (and sexually charged) than Bricker Hall. 

I did one year (94-95) in Morrill tower. Back then Morrill and Lincoln were referred to collectively as Soddom and Gomorrah. 

+1 HS
Urban Nation Army's picture

I did see some things of the nature you are describing but honestly none of it was quite as serious or sexual in nature as what is described in the report. I too lived in Morrill, two years ago. What I am trying to say is nothing from my experience was of a nature where "Drake's head would explode" compared to what happened in the band. But it sounds like our experiences were significantly different.

Bet you can't say "Bert Bielma is a bumbling buffoon" five times fast.

Fatpants's picture

Admissions standards weren't so tight 20 years ago. There were a lot of fun loving people that only made it a quarter or two. 

+2 HS
Urban Nation Army's picture

Valid point. +1

Bet you can't say "Bert Bielma is a bumbling buffoon" five times fast.

+1 HS
sb97's picture

We cant have nice things.

+9 HS
Tater_Schroeder's picture

Do we still get the Wizard of Oz performance this year?!

How Firm Thy Friendship

+9 HS
The Rill Dill's picture

I'm guessing Jimbo Fisher wasn't involved in the decision to fire.

+15 HS
andretolstoy's picture

Sexual harassment stinks, overzealous policing of behavior because of the hyper-sensitivity taught in our universities stinks even more ...

FWIW, I read the report. I do not condone the acts...

+4 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

*sigh*...

Sensitivity is rooted in a shared respect for others. It's not the worst idea in the world. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+5 HS
Chip's picture

How is this hyper-sensitivity?  The guy was encouraging/sanctioning his students to use sexual nicknames, march in their underwear, drink, and perform mock sex acts.  That will get you fired at every single educational institution in the country.

+2 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

How is this hyper-sensitivity?

It's not.

The guy was encouraging/sanctioning his students to use sexual nicknames, march in their underwear, drink, and perform mock sex acts.  That will get you fired at every single educational institution in the country.

Bingo. And before people decry this as an overreaction, imagine if you went into work and were constantly forced to do humiliating acts by your older coworkers, with the boss knowing about it and doing nothing. You'd be pretty justifiably pissed, too.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+2 HS
andretolstoy's picture

I read the report. I do not condone the acts. There is a culture of hyper-sensitivity that is being taught in universities. There is also a hyper-sex culture in universities and society today without the band director.

If this stuff is true and he actually encouraged it. Then the move was justified.

I just don't automatically accept reports like this on face value. The acts that the band members did were bad. The notion that a grown man wouldn't know they are bad and would encourage them makes me automatically question stuff. That is all. 

Sensitivity is good when it comes from truth. So is not accepting everything your read on the internet ...

+7 HS
andretolstoy's picture

The reactions to my posts actually prove my point.

-3 HS
bbb's picture

no, they actually don't

-7 HS
osu07asu10's picture

I just don't automatically accept reports like this on face value. The acts that the band members did were bad. The notion that a grown man wouldn't know they are bad and would encourage them makes me automatically question stuff. That is all. 

So the 9 witnesses and associate band directors misled investigators about Waters' knowledge of the culture? Furthermore, Waters has been involved with the Band since 1995. It isn't like he strolled onto campus and inherited the culture in 2012. He lived it as a band member, experienced it as a staff member, and had an opportunity to change it as the director.

Waters was evasive about when "Midnight Ramp" was eliminated by Band Leadership. Initially telling investigators that it happened in May prior to his knowledge of the investigation, but ultimately couldn't confirm/verify that when asked on June 12.

When asked to estimate how many current nicknames are sexual or offensive, Waters responded that “fifty percent” probably were “questionable.” When asked whether he thought such sexual nicknames are appropriate, Waters answered, “No.” When asked why he then tolerates such sexual nicknames, Waters replied, “Good point.” 

This is just an example of his overall lackadaisical attitude towards the culture. It is tough to fathom that a grown man would act this way or permit such a culture to exist  but don't immediately question the veracity of a report with a multitude of witnesses and other professionals who establish the culture did exist and Waters did nothing to stop it.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

andretolstoy's picture

Let's see if it changes with the new director. How it changes, And, what it changes into ...

+2 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Well I think it is important to note that Waters was not interested in changing the culture.

As I stated above, change starts at the top and if the leader of the program is unwilling to participate in the change then it won't ever be accomplished. 

Had Waters shown contrition during the investigation and a genuine interest and desire to improve the culture of the band, I bet he would still have a job.  However, he showed a severe lack of interest in the current culture and any initiative to change it.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

-3 HS
andretolstoy's picture

How do you know this?
How do you know what contrition looks like on a piece of paper?

-1 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Did you read the report? It is wrought with denial of knowledge, minimizing crude behavior, attacking the credibility of witnesses, and a general unwillingness to impact the culture of the band.

I don't know what contrition looks like on a piece of paper, but I certainly know what it doesn't look like and the compliance report is a shining example of that.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

andretolstoy's picture

Yes I read the report. I know how reports can have 'extra' motivation from outside sources; agendas can be pushed and what the majority didn't view as harassment can be spun to look like it did. Again, I don't take stuff like this at face value.

It looks like this culture was allowed to exist for more than just several years. All of a sudden it became immoral.

Like I said. I'm interested to find out who is going to replace Waters and what sort of changes will be implemented ...

+1 HS
spqr2008's picture

Do you have any experience with these types of investigators?  If you did, you'd know them as petty Jalverts.  The best way to deal with this type of useful idiot is to nod and smile and agree, pay your indulgence, and move on.  I grew up in a church full of these types, and frankly, they enjoy the power they can take from their positions.

-1 HS
andretolstoy's picture

Somewhat - our places of work are full of them. This is the culture that we live in.

Let me be straight. I'm one of those "church-types." I abhor the behavior that was reported. In my world-view, we call that sin. Sin exists, and most likely will exist. Are we truly attempting to "fix" the sex culture at The Ohio State University? If so, who is in charge of this? School Administration? The band director???

If the University is interested in curbing the hyper-sexualization of our beloved University then are they going to look at the free birth control and condoms that are doled out to students? The abortions? I can speak for a fact that passing out tools that help to smother the consequences of sex actually encourages a sex culture. Do the University bureaucrats have the sack to talk about this?

Are we going to look at the bar culture? What else?

I for one would like to see a less sex-crazed student culture. I'm just not too keen on ruining lives to do so, especially since this report seems to create a narrative of some sort of vague sexual-harassment-to-that-of-hyper-sex-culture and blames one man for it.

+3 HS
AGAB's picture

According to the article, this was not a singular decision. It was reached after a two month investigation and was rendered collectively by senior OSU administrators with President Drake delivering the decision. The investigation commenced before Dr. Drake assumed office. Under the circumstances, I feel confident that the outcome would have been the same regardless of whether Dr. Gee was still here.  After the tragedy at FAMU, everyone should known that there would be zero tolerance for any form of harassment or hazing.

+10 HS
d5k's picture

Right, this is the predetermined outcome when you start such an investigation into any such institution.  You will find things like this and you will be put in a position where you have to fire someone.  It is extremely unfortunate in my opinion.

-3 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

He's 38 years old and should have put an end to it. "Because everyone else was doing it" stops becoming a defense when you're four years old.

And this is extremely unfortunate...for all of the students who had to put up with this B.S. before someone finally put an end to it. Hopefully he learns from this, and realizes that with authority, title, and increased compensation come leadership and responsibility.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

+2 HS
Johnny Ginter's picture

good. that kind of sexual harassment/hazing is totally unacceptable, and waters was complicit in it. dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.

ibuck's picture

I doubt that firing the director will change the culture, but it's a start. The most egregious harassers in the band will probably need to be disciplined (e.g., suspension, dismissal) before the culture begins to change. 

Imagine what Urban would do if football players harassed females like this.

Our honor defend, we will fight to the end !

If you can't win your conference, just quietly accept your non-playoff bowl game.

-1 HS
1MechEng's picture

Nooo!!!

I always fear summer because of the possible issues with football players on break (i.e. - Sprinkle at the Grown and Sexy Lounge, etc.).

I never expected this. TBDBITL was supposed to be above reproach. SMH.

I wish the regular season was already here. I also hope the band is able to continue to produce at the same level of awesomeness that they did last year.

+1 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

Tits McGee must be on vacation.

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

+11 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

The one thing in the report that I could see needing to end would be the "tricks" part.  Nothing else seemed at all "fire-able" especially when things were not mandatory to do.

Couldn't the university have told him to stop this conduct once and for all/ get more involved instead of just firing him?

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

+3 HS
yrro's picture

Agreed. The only thing I saw in the report that was remotely offensive or problematic was some of the level to which the tricks were taken.

Most rookie tricks aren't sexual like that. They're just embarrassing. I feel like coming down hard on the sexualized tricks solves the only real issue here.

+2 HS
Citrus's picture

Here is the report if anyone is interested in what the allegations are. http://www.dispatch.com/content/downloads/2014/07/Investigation-Report.pdf

+4 HS
apack614's picture

Thank you for all the great things you have done Mr. Waters, you will be surely be missed by everyone. Not saying I agree with hazing but I think he just got the shitty end of the stick with this one. This has been going on a lot longer than Waters has been there.

"If we worked half as hard as our band, we'd be champions." - Woody Hayes

+2 HS
AJBor41's picture

Looks more like he earned the shitty end of the stick. As many have noted, he had an opportunity to end or improve the situation, but was instead involved in it. If the quality of the performances drops, then I'll miss that. After reading the report, I won't miss Waters much.

+1 HS
apack614's picture

Yes, I agree with that he could have. I was saying he got the shitty end of the stick for holding up a tradition (right or wrong) that was in place before he arrived which was also noted by many others. Regardless, yes he was in the wrong and the correct actions were taken but I do not hold any malice towards Mr. Waters.

"If we worked half as hard as our band, we'd be champions." - Woody Hayes

+2 HS
AJBor41's picture

I'm sure that partaking in the tradition, himself, as a young man made it even more difficult to do away with. I do not hold malice towards him, by any means. I am, however, very disappointed.

+4 HS
apack614's picture

Once again, I agree with that! I'm going to upvote it out. Go Bucks!

"If we worked half as hard as our band, we'd be champions." - Woody Hayes

+1 HS
osu07asu10's picture

I read the report, and it actually footnotes Urban Dictionary.

When in the world did a University start sourcing Urban freakin Dictionary?

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+5 HS
BuckeyeMark's picture

We were all quick to jump on Bucky Badger when their band had similar problems.  If Bucky was so wrong then what do we say when it's in our backyard?

There's plenty of judge and jury types here who are ready to excuse what happened but does anyone really think they terminated an enormously popular band director without cause?

If they axed him my guess is that there were serious problems and he had to go.  It does make a real statement for the next director.

+7 HS
I_Run_The_Dave's picture

Apparently there has been a culture of sexual harassment in TBDBITL for decades.  The OSU administration and compliance office get wind of it and take swift action to shut it down.  People here complain that it wasn't Jon Water's fault and he shouldn't be held accountable.

At PSU, there was a culture of sexual harassment and rape for over a decade.  The PSU administration knew about it and did nothing.  People here condemn them and think they are the worst ever.

Can anyone else see the hypocrisy in this thread?

+8 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

Orders of magnitude difference between rape/ child molestation and in general, friendly hazing that is occasionally taken a little too far.

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

+2 HS
Chip's picture

"general, friendly hazing that is occasionally taken a little too far."

The report details more than that and you know it.

+2 HS
yrro's picture

I read exactly the report. The tricks were taken too far. I saw nothing else objectionable.

-3 HS
Chip's picture

Well then it's a good thing you aren't a university president.

+2 HS
Idaho Helga's picture

"Objectionable"?!!  Glad you are not my coworker. Geeze.
 

yrro's picture

I didn't say they'd be appropriate in an office. I consider a college band a different venue. Many here apparently do not.

I'd be fairly unhappy if my coworkers gave all the interns derogative nicknames of *any* sort, let alone sexual ones. I also don't generally go drinking with my coworkers or end up rooming with them, as is common among band rows.

+1 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

I didn't see anything horribly wrong except for the "tricks" and maybe some of the conduct on the buses.  However, I've also read that this sort of thing has been tempered down recently under Waters.  I was never in the band, but based on what I read, it didn't seem worthy of him being fired; reprimanded and given a warning to improve the culture, sure, but not fired.

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

-1 HS
I_Run_The_Dave's picture

Waters was a former member of the band -- he knew all about it before he took up the position.  He could have acted to eradicate it outright from the beginning.  He did not.  Instead, he endeared himself to those participating in it to the point where he participated in it himself.

No, this isn't Penn State.  Thankfully there have been no reports of rape by any of the band members or staff.  But that doesn't mean it couldn't come to that if left alone.  OSU compliance and the administration got it right.

+4 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

The slippery slope argument isn't necessarily fair.  You could apply that to a lot of things.  Anyways, I'm just of the opinion that a reprimand, dock in pay, and/ or warning to improve the culture or we will fire you is more warranted for this type of stuff.  If he was warned previously, then sure I am ok with him being fired, but I don't know if that is the case.

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

+2 HS
Chip's picture

10, 20 years ago?  Maybe just a reprimand.  Maybe.  But with everything going on today surrounding sexual misconduct and universities, HELL no.

-2 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

Very true.  By reprimand, I more mean a suspension, reduced pay, etc.  I shouldn't have put the "and/or" there; it should be just "and",

Let me be clear, I'm not condoning the culture.  I just think he should be given a chance to improve the culture after a warning, reprimand, suspension, pay-cut, etc.  Within a certain time frame, if things don't improve, then fire him.  Firing him straight up is too severe in my opinion.

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

+3 HS
bbb's picture

Yes, but that's expected of any fanboy site

-11 HS
Citrus's picture

BBB why you trollin'?  

+9 HS
avail31678's picture

Kinda?  Hazing has a gray area.  I might draw the line here, you might draw the line there as to what's acceptable.  Certainly sexual harassment is no bueno....but you're comparing rape (RAPE) of little children to this? 

I'm not saying you're wrong, and ultimately, although I'm sad to see him go, I am glad OSU is doing the right thing.  But my initial gut thinks this is an unfair comparison.  Maybe I'm wrong though.

EDIT:  I didn't read the full report apparently...I haven't heard about these "tricks" yet and bus incidents.  All in all I am just glad OSU took positive action.

HilltopHustle's picture

The jokes are running wild from other fans on Twitter. Maybe we should all just go outside and play—take the rest of the day off. 

+3 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Wait. Did the band vote on it?

+12 HS
Buckeye On Elba's picture

Best comment I've read so far. Things are getting tense on here, which is understandable, but thanks for this.

+1 HS
Oyster's picture

Shouldn't he just get a 2 game suspension?  That seems to be the norm.

+8 HS
teddyballgame's picture

Sounds like the band needs to clean up their act.

Kyle Rowland's picture

This is the classic case of if this was Michigan's band, you guys would be going ballistic. A lot of these comments are absolutely embarrassing. 

bbb's picture

This was direly needed in this thread, thank you

+11 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

I love 11W and I get that the commentariat is going to be homer-ish, but this shows how ridiculous it gets sometimes. Maybe it's the offseason, but it's been getting worse and worse. Especially the comments here bitching about an ESPN story that is maybe 200 word summary of the Dispatch's report. Hooray, victim complexes! It's crazy seeing the difference between comments here and on /r/cfb.

But yeah. This was inexcusable. Even if Waters was trying to rein the traditions in, he also condoned many, and didn't do nearly enough to stop it. Humiliation, harassment and hazing are unacceptable in a workplace, and the fact that TBDBITL is a student organization changes nothing. Students were harmed on Waters's watch. Come on, guys.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+9 HS
BuckeyeMark's picture

We did go ballistic when it was Wisky...

+3 HS
bbb's picture

Can we just disable comments on posts like this? This seems to bring out the worst opinions of people

-6 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

The dumbest opinions are quite often spoken the loudest.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

+1 HS
yrro's picture

If this was Michigan's band, I wouldn't have a problem.

Dude, this is marching band culture. We can have a big, long argument about whether marching band culture is bad or not. But it's consistently libertine and puerile at almost every school I've heard of.

You think the football players don't do shit like this? The guys I knew used to have naked wrestling matches in the tiny room in the center of the Lincoln dorm pods.

The people who don't have an issue with this, don't have an issue because in their experience it was all *voluntary.*

The question as an organization is how were people who *didn't* want to be part of this stuff treated.

+1 HS
bbb's picture

Dude rape is just Penn State culture

Jesus is that really your argument?

-10 HS
yrro's picture

No, my argument is that in a student social setting, sexual nicknames and most of the embarrassing games mentioned, when run entirely by the students, are entirely appropriate to the setting and context and not morally objectionable.

-1 HS
Fear The Elf's picture

Wait, Michigan has a band? Do they have a football team, too?

+5 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

I think you miss the point. What are we supposed to do?  Say we're outraged and this is inappropriate?  Of course we are and it is. I think that goes without saying.  But let's not kid ourselves with the feigned shock. I spent six years in the Navy and have seen much, much worse.   There's always that knowledge that if the person pushing the envelope of acceptable behavior gets caught or a person in a position of authority knowingly ignores it and gets caught, they are going to burn.   

+2 HS
unknownmusketeer's picture

(1) Football coach

(2) President

(3) Band director

Who is the 4th most powerful person at Ohio State?

1MechEng's picture
+4 HS
GoBucks713's picture

@FakeUrbanMeyer

-The Aristocrats!

+7 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

Braxton Miller

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

+5 HS
1MechEng's picture

Cue the "who's next after Dr. Waters" threads in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

BierStube's picture

Why can't the kids today keep hazing simple ... like I did back in the day

"No matter where you go, there you are." B. Banzai

+5 HS
TBDBITL0509's picture

Former TBDBITL member here, and I know Jon from 2001 on...

The traditions of Midnight Ramp, rookie names, and rookie tricks... they are 100% real. In my time in the band (2003 - 2005), my impression was that the tricks and names would tend to go a little far, but most everyone took it in good fun. I can also remember a few times when I wasn't totally comfortable. There was definitely an air of secrecy around our traditions - we knew they wouldn't be understood by the general public, especially when it got to names and tricks. Some of them just weren't right. 

With the stuff we did, I can honestly say that I'm not surprised that this finally got out and someone got fired. Unfortunately, these traditions pre-date Jon, and he very likely wasn't present when the most egregious things went down. It sounds like he tried to help tone it down, but the damage was done.

SMDH. 

+30 HS
J.Mo's picture

Reading the report, it seems like Jon Waters is a victim of the culture built by Jon Woods and he couldn't really do anything to change it since he was a part of it.

-1 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

He got fired because he didn't try enough to change the culture. He tried to scale it back but keep most of it intact. That's a lot different, and he's still responsible.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

TBDBITL0509's picture

As I learn more about this from my friends behind the scenes, it sounds like he absolutely tried to improve the culture. It just wasn't enough.

I'm torn because it's absolutely not right that anyone should feel sexually harassed, but Jon can't babysit all kids at all times. I remember a kid named "Pants" whose trick was to pants himself whenever he was "tapped off" (think: "tap tap tap... Hi, Pants!") - he once pantsed himself right outside the School of Music holding two Chipotle burritos. Hilarious, but demeaning, and Waters/Woods never knew about it.

Emotionally, I'm at a bit of a loss. Jon's a good guy, but you can't argue with the situation and consequences.

+9 HS
buckeyedude's picture

 Unfortunately, these traditions pre-date Jon, and he very likely wasn't present when the most egregious things went down

See! That was my question: Was Jon the fall guy for traditions that pre-date him? You answered it. And, I think MMan is somewhat vindicated by you, TBDBITL509.

 

 

+2 HS
AndyVance's picture

This story should surprise no one who has ever been in any marching band...

While not condoning anything about this situation, I'll just say that I really, really hate the "zero tolerance" culture in which we live today. Where exactly is the room for a teachable moment in these sort of "do not pass go, do not collect $200" PR firings? We've now essentially rendered one otherwise talented individual unemployable in his chosen profession, and done nothing to address the underlying reality: that college students are going to explore the boundaries in one venue or another.

Meanwhile, college football players are getting away with actual sexual assault at multiple schools around the country, and in several cases the schools are going out of their way to protect the perpetrator and further assault the victim.

I fear that the University, in pretty much doing what it had to do, just torpedoed one of our greatest traditions and assets. Given what I've heard over the years, somehow I suspect that the powers that be in the School of Music are not disappointed by that.

+13 HS
jeremytwoface's picture

Well said as always Andy....

My question is will this actually change the culture of the band?? Will band members stop doing these things or will they just do them more quietly now? Are any of the senior band leaders getting punished for this?

I know that the band director is ultimately responsible, much like a head coach is ultimately responsible for his players, but just firing him isn't going to change these practices.

The first man gets the ((((Oyster)))), the second man gets the shell.

+6 HS
Veraton's picture

Andy you are absolutely correct that Football players get away with it across the country.  Band members get away with it across the country.  Other students in other organizations get away with it across the country.  That does not make it any more alright!  We can't just keep giving people passes just because it's happening elsewhere.

Waters was in the position of leader of the band.  Pure and simple one of his responsibilities was to monitor the culture of one of the more outwardly visibly parts of what is supposed to be an esteemed University.  The behavior that occurred and is occurring isn't acceptable by any means for even college students.  If college students want to behave this way on their on time then so be it, but when representing the University much like being an employee of a company they are held to a higher standard.  This standard was not being adhered too under Waters watch and obviously from the previous posts under the previous leaderships watch.  Waters didn't take corrective action and just because the leaders before him enabled it as well doesn't make him any less responsible.

This isn't a matter of being to PC, this is a matter of accountability.  Waters is accountable for the actions of his band members and how they represent the University.  The band members obviously are not representing the university to the standards that WE all should expect and thus he was fired.  

+6 HS
AndyVance's picture

All valid points.

You make an interesting comparison with the "much like being an employee" comment. So are we to assume marching band members are akin to university employees, as some are arguing in the ongoing NCAA lawsuits, etc.? If so, should Urban Meyer be accountable for the "rash of arrests" that have occurred under his watch?

In other words, if we can't expect the head football coach to babysit 85 scholarship athletes and keep them from getting into bar fights or peeing in public, then how can we expect the band director to babysit 220 coeds acting like a significant percentage of college students anywhere in the country?

I get it - sexual harassment is bad, and as a relatively new father, I don't want my Little Girl to be put in these type of situations, either. But I also think that we're pretty damn quick to pick up the sword and lop of the head of one guy when it is convenient to do so, rather than actually getting our hands dirty and addressing the underlying issues. If this is truly about a cultural issue, firing Waters seems like the thing that is least likely to fix the problem.

+13 HS
Veraton's picture

I think it's one thing to get in a bar fight, pee in public or smoke weed.  It's a completely different issue to sexually harass or enable an environment where sexual harassment happens.  I'm sure there are a fair share of band members that also get in bar fights, smoke weed and get caught, and do things the law finds unnacceptable and I am sure they are punished accordingly.  This case is in addition to those occruences.  I would fully expect the University to fire Meyer if he was found to have players participating or enabling sexual harassment during practices or during University travel or even worse like in Waters case when he is present.

I don't think you can sit here and make the argument otherwise or try to tell me that band members don't get involved in bar fights or get caught smoking weed can you?

I don't understand how it is the least likely to fix the situation?  Waters enabled the situation, I'm not sure where your disconnect is.  Had he taken measures to stop this it wouldn't have happened.  These occurrences are happening during times where leadership is present and has done nothing to stop it.  It's one thing if a band member is doing this in the confines of his dorm room or when visiting his home but this is happening when leadership is present.  I'm sorry I respect you as a poster but your arguments don't add up.  Comparing what a football player does outside of the University to what band members are doing during University time with leadership present is completely different.  Now leadership may not have been present during all occurrences but the fact is they were at times and that fosters the culture and thus they should be disciplined.  Example is set from the leadership down, if the leader is unwilling to take the measures necessary to correct the behavior then the it won't get corrected like we have seen.  It's absolutely the right move and I hope the University gets someone in place that takes this seriously, if they set the tone that this behavior isn't acceptable then the culture will begin to change.  Leaving those in place that have enabled it and slapping them on the wrist and telling them to do better sends no message.

+1 HS
andretolstoy's picture

You're right. Some of those acts can be viewed completely objectively, while the other can be very subjective in nature.

The interesting thing was that most of the inappropriate acts were committed by girls. Is it assumed that they were forced into doing those acts? That they were uncomfortable?

Who in this case was harassed?

+1 HS
Oxley's picture

The interesting thing was that most of the inappropriate acts were committed by girls. Is it assumed that they were forced into doing those acts? That they were uncomfortable?

Who in this case was harassed?

Are you suggesting only women can be sexually harassed? Both men and women can be harassed by both men and women. 

+2 HS
andretolstoy's picture

Not suggesting this at all. But let's get real these laws and/or policies are not envisioned with males as victims.

+2 HS
Chip's picture

Yes, the underlying reality is that college students are going to explore the boundaries in one venue or another; however, that should be done in situations where they feel comfortable and on their own terms, not at the insistence of a man who is supposed to be a leader in education. In terms of the teachable moment, well, here it is:  If you sanction inappropriate nicknames, mock sexual acts, alcohol use, and marching in underwear while you're directing The OSU Marching Band, you will be fired.  I suspect the next director will learn the lesson pretty quickly.

-1 HS
andretolstoy's picture

How dare you not tow the party er uh pop-cultural line?! You must be punished masculophile!

-2 HS
3GB's picture

Andy, you're right about the impact this firing is going to have.  Waters was an absolute slam dunk hire as a successor to Woods - he was a former band member and alum, innovative, and "got it" when it came to the culture within the band (which in hindsight turned out to be a flaw).  There has been a strained relationship with the top brass in the School of Music and the Band, the biggest criticism at the time of the hiring was that he didn't have a Doctorate Degree on his resume (think of it like Tress in his bid to be a University President), but that got thrown out the window after the viral halftimes took off.  

The band is never going to lose the real traditions of Sloopy, Script, Ramp and others, but this is going to be a blow from which they will have to rebuild from.  I just hope they find the right person to take the helm.

+5 HS
d5k's picture

Andy,

I could not have said it better.  This is a simple "solution" to a complicated problem happening in all corners of colleges across the country.  These cultures exist within sports teams, military units, fraternities, and often more quietly and less documented within corporate workplaces (dirty jokes still exist...).  And it is part of a broader culture of bullying throughout our educational system from Kindergarten on.  I am not condoning many of the individual acts or giving someone a nickname if they are not "in on the joke".  But I think this is a classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

+1 HS
yrro's picture

Something I'm realizing from these comments -- from the outside, the band is a class, and an arm of the university.

From the inside, it seems a lot closer to a frat and a social organization.

Seems to significantly color people's view on what is and isn't appropriate for its members to do.

+2 HS
jeremytwoface's picture

So this story is actually a headline on ESPN's NCAAF page.......

The first man gets the ((((Oyster)))), the second man gets the shell.

cronimi's picture

Of course it is....

+1 HS
charles's picture

Couldn't they just suspend him for the 1st half of the Navy game?

+6 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

Hey, this isn't Georgia!

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

+1 HS
apack614's picture

HAHA!!!!! They could just supsend right now during baseball season. That will make him learn his lesson, it was probably just the child coming out in him...

"If we worked half as hard as our band, we'd be champions." - Woody Hayes

+2 HS
CincyBucks's picture

What's new? Someone with authoritied in a school system abusing kids 

CincyBucks

-11 HS
BierStube's picture

"No matter where you go, there you are." B. Banzai

+8 HS
Poison nuts's picture

#bestcommentonthisthread

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

Gobucks2204's picture

I was in a fraternity in college, and we were never degraded sexually during hazing. We had scavenger hunts and a lot of binge drinking, and some embarrassing things which in hind sight were inappropriate, but this stuff crosses the line. If you read the full report, it is pretty damning.  This was the right action, and hopefully the band can move forward and can excel on and off the field with integrity.  Hopefully the national media won't obsess over ever detail for the next month or so.

+2 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

Somehow, this will be Urban's fault.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

+2 HS
spqr2008's picture

While some of the activities are over the line, you have to wonder how much does this have to do with getting OSU off of the DOE OCR Title 9 hit list. And I also wonder who did the investigation, and what funding and/or power they gained from this investigation.  Call me cynical, but crazy initiation rites are definitely part of college band culture (a friend was in BGSU MB and had some running around in underwear experiences too).  I hate to dislike any part of OSU, but my faith in the bureaucracy of OSU, that they'll tell the truth and do the right thing, is practically nonexistent.

+5 HS
spqr2008's picture

So, there must be some OSU administrators reading this.

+3 HS
HYDEYOKIDS's picture

Just unfortunate on all accounts. I understand why it happened, but I can't help but wonder what the band feels and what shape they will be in this year.

+2 HS
BUCKfutter's picture

my take:

this is absolutely a 100% serious allegation and the correct action was taken. there is a line between college fun and inappropriate action from the administration, and that line was obviously crossed here.

as far as everyone's responses to the situation:

if our country wasn't inundated with the PC police (see the firing of Gee for a prime example), we wouldn't see nearly as many of the insensitive reactions we have here to a situation that IS actually serious. true, serious issues (like this) should be dealt with harshly and swiftly. the problem is, for every one of these, there are ten stupid non-situations that everyone gets butthurt about just so they can feel morally superior to everyone else.

end rant.

the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS

+2 HS
vitaminB's picture

this is absolutely a 100% serious allegation and the correct action was taken. there is a line between college fun and inappropriate action from the administration

Says the guy named Buckfutter.

BUCKfutter's picture

only on account of villainy!

the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS

Young_Turk's picture

Believe me, I hate to say this, but this is the first time I have any sympathy for the Ped Staters rabid defense of Paterno.  No, I haven't read the full doc, just the comments posted here by some people that have.  In no way are they the same, other then my initial reaction was a selfish thought about how would this impact the quality of the half-time show.  What a shame, but if the allegations are true, he had to go.  I hope he lands softly and gets the opportunity to correct this stain.

-11 HS
TheBadOwl's picture

 Ped Staters

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

+9 HS
bbb's picture

Sorry, but is this a real opinion? Where's the sarcasm font? Am I missing something here?

-10 HS
Hovenaut's picture

Tough news.

I guess all I can say is that we are living in the 21st century. I may not know a clear right from wrong on all matters, but it sounds like that whatever went on, went on too long with too many people involved in or aware of what took place.

I'm glad I saw it here first, before some other biased media outlet got their hands all over the story.

TBDIBTL, and the OSU community deserves better.

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I am not very smart.

+3 HS
GrayDay's picture

This stuff was generally known when I was in school.  That was a long time ago, when no one cared much about frat hazing.  Frankly I'd assumed it had been cleaned up by now.  At best its embarrassingly infantile (yeah, I know, college kids) but at worst genuine harassment that grown-ups in charge should be stopping.   Good thing that it finally is getting cleaned up. 

I do wonder why now, though, as it was never really a secret and I can't imagine this is the first parent ever to complain. Some are suggesting the new president, or new regs.  Perhaps, but strikes me its due to the stunning worldwide popularity the band achieved the past few years.  The band is way more than our own OSU thing now.  Its really become an important part of the University's public image. 

+2 HS
THEOSUfan's picture

I'm not touching this one.  It's kryptonite, the 3rd rail, and all that.  Sad day for fans of TBDBITL.

+5 HS
AngryWoody's picture

I get it. I'm not happy but I get it...

Our Honor Defend!

+4 HS
cinserious's picture

Bill Cunningham and Seg Man are runing away with this story right now. Hillarious!

Willie just mentioned something about too many skin flutes being played up in Columbus.

Life's daily struggle is choosing between saying F--ck-it, or soldiering on with your responsibilities.  

+3 HS
Mercurius's picture

Gee and Walters were some of the best things about tOSU. Too many people get their panties in a wad over small things.

-4 HS
DrSpaceman's picture

Gee and Walters were some of the best things about tOSU. Too many people get their panties in a wad over small things.

Apparently Waters wasn't good enough for you to learn his last name, though.

"Medicine is not a science" - Leo Spaceman

+1 HS
buckeyefan333's picture

The most serious part of this whole situation is what mile marker Torrance Gibson is at....

+6 HS
Fatpants's picture

Maybe he'd like to be the new band director?

+3 HS
Poison nuts's picture

I'm not convinced he can play band director at the college level...he may be best suited for ROTC leader. That's where his real skill set lies & where he'll see playing time earliest.

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+1 HS
Fatpants's picture

Yeah, but other schools have offered him non-band director jobs, and the band director job is the reason he's visiting.

+1 HS
Poison nuts's picture

Let's just get him on campus. Whether band director or ROTC leader, you don't turn talent like his down. 

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+1 HS
Scuba_Steve's picture

First Aaron Hernandez and now this.  Urban has absolutely NO CONTROL over his football program.

+9 HS
FairfaxBuckeye's picture

I'm proud of Ohio State for doing the right thing.

It certainly was not the easy thing, but it is clearly the right thing, and its good to see that the right thing was done by my University.

+5 HS
Nutty's picture

 I agree. There are way too many defending the culture. TBDBITL shouldn't be a fraternity where you have to accept humiliation or be ostracized. If even one student gave up the opportunity because he or she didn't want to simulate sexual acts is one too many.

+3 HS
Fatpants's picture

Regardless of the severity of the acts on the continuum of moral turpitude, the landscape has change significantly since Waters' band days and administrators cannot turn a blind eye.

Citrus's picture

Is it just me, or is the photo accompanying this story sorta funny considering … 

+5 HS
OSUStu's picture

The cannon is a metaphor for a penis!

If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.  ~ Bruce Lee

+1 HS
RBuck's picture

Man, this sucks bigtime. I would have never imagined this.

"It's just another case of there you are". ~ Doc (1918-2012)

+2 HS
toad1204's picture

Why would this be a zero tolerance?

1. It stops from allowing someone to label whatever policy has been broken to be seen as an approved ideology resulting in common practice.
2. Making it a terminable offense inhibits its occurrence by motivating those in control to squash it or face the consequences.
3. Does not allow for a culture to build which is not in the best interest of those involved.
4. IN$URANCE – I can’t imagine the policy they have to take out in the case something happens not to mention the legal/ settlement fees should anything go to trial against tOSU and a victim. 

If you guys want to call bullshit on the firing so be it, but you can never again make fun of anyone taking a vote for allowing someone back on a team, Jamis Winston/ FSU, The SEC, or The NCAA Infractions Committee.
 

Nothing like dancing on the field in 02... 

+4 HS
Fatpants's picture

It's zero tolerance because Penn State has spent over $170 million on the Sandusky scandal

(not saying they're comparable, just that the cost of 'some tolerance' can get quite high)

+1 HS
ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

Great points Toad

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

Catfish Biff's picture

I remembering hearing from some band alum that Jon Waters didn't have the approval of some band people when he was a candidate for the director spot because he didn't have a doctorate. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a trumped up charge that was tolerated under most directors but Waters wasn't given any leeway and they're using it as a way to get rid of him.

Who knew universities could be so politicky!

..Til' we wobble in our shoes!

+6 HS
Otown Buckeye's picture

I didn't even read your thread but your screen name is kick ass.  Lots of late night burned tongues at that place.  Upvote for you!

"because we couldn't go for three"

Catfish Biff's picture

Thanks. We thought we were kings if we scored a half price pizza right before closing time and we'd let all of 11th Ave. know about it on the way to Siebert.

..Til' we wobble in our shoes!

bbb's picture

Do you also believe in chem trails?

-10 HS
Fatpants's picture

I wouldn't be shocked if there were something to this because:

1- this can't be the first time someone has complained

2- he can't be the first band director to know about it

+2 HS
11UrbzAndSpices's picture

I was thinking to myself when I first saw this, how long does this take to get on a college football sports site (and then subsequently everything will be blamed on Dr. Gee and Urban Meyer)...

6 minutes ago

well, there you go

Cardale Jones. Cardale Jones! CARDALE JONES!!

+2 HS
J.Mo's picture

You can't change a culture with someone that previously existed in the culture. Speaking from my experience in the corporate world, to really change a culture, you need to bring in new faces and new ideas.

Never knew it was this bad. 

+2 HS
Bucksfan's picture

Exhibit B is pretty clutch, though.  Some of it, anyway.

+2 HS
ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

"Hail to those mf'ers" sounds like a winner.  Why the hatred for Crockett, though?

Class of 2010.

+1 HS
cronimi's picture

My cousin (who attended OSU about 15 years before me, though never played in the band) taught me that version of the song when I was in high school. It always comes to mind whenever I hear the UM band play it. 

NW Buckeye's picture

1970 was my Freshman year at OSU.  On the Friday before The Game (which we won 20-9) I helped lead a contingent of about 5K down High Street all the way to the steps of the State Capitol.  You can only imagine how much antifreeze was consumed that night on the way down High Street.  Once we arrived the frivolity began in earnest.  My shining moment was standing at the top of the steps leading up to the Capitol and leading the crowd in "I don't give a damn for the whole state..."  Immediately following that song I burst into the "Hail to the M'Fers!"  The crowd followed my lead and we sang the whole thing right there. 

Hate to think what might happen if I were a student today and instigated that. 

+4 HS
ExpressiveBuckeye's picture

You, sir, are a hero.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

+2 HS
Fatpants's picture

Are we allowed to giggle at the parodied fight songs of the other B1G schools?

+2 HS
ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

I know I was rolling.  It still hurts.

Class of 2010.

+2 HS
Bucksfan's picture

BTW...it's a pdf, and definitely NSFW...unless your boss thinks it's funny.  Like mine.

+1 HS
yrro's picture

Getting the lyrics to those versions of the songs (which I've previously only heard legends of) is the only silver lining to this mess.

+1 HS
Go1Bucks's picture

Its sad that they made it available to everyone, its going to be harder to keep the book now. :-P

Go Bucks!

LABuckeye's picture

After reading that, it is pretty clear that someone would have to be fired. I'm not a prude, or offended, or anything (i.e., I laugh at dirty jokes around friends)... but to have that in official band literature? My wife, who is not an OSU alumn or even fan, looked at some of those and said it was so unbelievably in poor taste that she honestly can't believe it is real.

-1 HS
Bucksfan's picture

I don't think the song book was official.
 

+2 HS
LABuckeye's picture

Maybe I phrased that wrong. It clearly says "unofficial", but it has the band logo, is a lot of pages and was spiral bound, and was apparently part of the band literature...

-1 HS
TBDBITL0509's picture

Definitely not official. Passed down on many a band road trip and eventually typed up by an intrepid TBDBITL member. 

I loved those songs.

+7 HS
M Man's picture

Exhibit B is pretty clutch, though.  Some of it, anyway.

Printed.  All 37 pages.  To go into my tailgating-stuff bag.  I'm just angry that I never knew about the songbook until now.

TBDBITL0509's picture

Folks like you are exactly why we never wanted to see it "published"!

+6 HS
216ToThe614's picture

Nothing throughout this entire ordeal has hurt me as much as seeing this did. You are the worst kind of person, and the reason that secrets are secrets in the first place

Pick up your feet, turn your corners square! And DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE!!!
WB

M Man's picture

You're mad at me?!?

I didn't print the thing and make it Exhibit B; OSU's Office of University Compliance and Integrity did that.  I didn't put the .pdf online; the Dispatch did that.  It's no secret anymore, and I had not one thing to do with making it public.

And nobody but nobody has been more critical of the whole Title IX Star Chamber mechanism than I have.

So now that the whole thing can be found online at www.Dispatch.com , you're mad at me for having fun with it? 

In case you're angry at the content, remember I didn't write any of the lyrics; generations of the OSU band did and some of them are rather clever.  My friends are going to wear out the pages of Big Ten fight song replacement lyrics.  Just the thing for a laugh with cocktails outside our Stadium or (guaranteed) yours.

+1 HS
216ToThe614's picture

This isn't something to joke around about with your friends. It is one of many closely guarded secrets that should never have found its way into the public. You don't understand what you are doing/saying, just like everyone else not involved with this. The fact that you are apparently proud of yourself for "having fun with this" is sickening. You will never understand, and I will not try to explain it to you

Pick up your feet, turn your corners square! And DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE!!!
WB

M Man's picture

Well we usually just tossed a football and joked around with the launch codes for NORAD's nuclear weapons.  But we never had a book with lyrics for that.

Srsly; I don't get where you are coming from on this.  If you are defending Jon Peters from a politicized Title IX attack, you should know that few people on this blog have been more vocal than I, on that very same point.  If on the other hand you are suggesting that "sexual harassment" matters must never be joked about, then you might wanna start with The Ohio State University Marching Band.  (Of which I gather you are a member, or an alum.)  Or are you someplace in between those polar viewpoints?

I am not so sure but that the Michigan Marching Band (which is by no means innocent in such matters, from what I hear) might have a bit of fun with TBDBITL in an upcoming halftime show.  (I'm thinking of something along the lines of an OSU band figure dressed in a snappy black band uniform, scarlet beret and spats, with a nice white brassiere replacing the white flying cross straps of the standard OSU band uniform.  I'm surprised that image hasn't appeared as a Photoshop job already.)  The biggest reason that Michigan wouldn't do such a thing is that Ann Arbor is even more exquisitely sensitive to federal Title IX dictates than is Columbus.  Like the old lesbian joke:  "Q.  How many lesbians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?  A.  That's not funny." 

Now; to be actually serious with you (as opposed to "srsly")...  Are you saying that this entire matter should never have been exposed to the public because the public cannot understand the special bond, forged through work, discipline and bonding that is unique to the marching band?  That context is essential for any understanding of this story, and context has been lacking from the flyover media accounts?  I for one would like to read such a first-hand account in a lengthy column.  You should write it!  Be sure to make the point about what a blunt instrument Title IX is, if you take on that task.  

You say you "will not try to explain it to" me.  What you should understand is that you could not ask for a better audience, than me.  You're not living in the real world if you think that rivals won't use this against you for fun and profit.  (What else can they do, as rivals?  This isn't health science, or national security, or international finance.  Rivals do rival-stuff to each other.  For fun.  And profit.)  But I am the guy who said that I'd defend anybody at OSU who got caught up in the new Title IX dragnet after what happened to Brendan Gibbons at Michigan.  And now I am making good on that promise; probably at my personal cost of several hundred helmet stickers, judging by the reaction.

+1 HS
AndyVance's picture

You are the worst kind of person.

No he's not. And it's not even close.

OSUStu's picture

I am sorry Jon Waters but you have to be an complete idiot to attend an event in this day and age that involves hazing and students being marched around in their underwear and not realize it will cost you your job. 

If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.  ~ Bruce Lee

+15 HS
Fatpants's picture

The nail has been hit on the head.

+4 HS
TBDBITL0509's picture

Midnight Ramp is a tradition older than Jon. I've done it a few times, I'm a woman, and I definitely had reason to not be 100% proud of my body... My first Midnight Ramp was 10 seconds of "Wait, in my UNDERWEAR??" followed by, "Eff it. I EARNED this. I'm part of something so amazing. This is family, and no one can take this away from me." I wouldn't judge too harshly; you kind of had to be there to get it. It wasn't meant to be sexualized EVER. I view the rookie names/tricks as far more dangerous.

Jon tried to undo a lot of this, but it just wasn't enough. More than anything, it seems some folks (not Jon) took things too far. 

+18 HS
Scarlet_Buckeye's picture

What kind of "family" wants someone to strip to their underwear?

-1 HS
TBDBITL0509's picture

Don't take it so literally. Like I said, you had to be there to get it. It's just a bunch of kids being weird, celebrating in a way very few can. I mean, I can say I've been in The Shoe in my underwear and wasn't arrested.

+12 HS
M Man's picture

What kind of "family" wants someone to strip to their underwear?

Kardashians?

+6 HS
OSUStu's picture

To a degree, I get where you're coming from. My point was that Waters was foolish to attend.

If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.  ~ Bruce Lee

cajunbuckeye's picture

I'm sorry that I can only give you one upvote, TBDBITL0509. Thanks for joining the fray and sharing some firsthand knowledge.

An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches

+6 HS
Jeeves's picture

This may be the only comment this thread needed.

That songbook holds much potential. 

+1 HS
ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

What may have been acceptable 3, 2, or even 1 decade ago may not be acceptable today.  It's the way society is, whether we like it or not.  It's a motherfucking shame that this had to happen, but it's hard to say that it's complete bullshit. 

Class of 2010.

+1 HS
d5k's picture

This is pretty much where I stand, even if I stated it more strongly than I should have.  Pretty much had to happen as the university has to respond strongly to these sorts of things but it is still a shame.

-1 HS
buckeyedude's picture

How many schollies will TBDBITL lose? And are they banned from the bowl game?

 

 

+2 HS
MikeEagleBuckeye's picture

Coincidentally the drum major receives full tuition from the university; something Waters fought for.

+2 HS
ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

And this is all Urban's fault! 

Class of 2010.

BucksfanXC's picture

All it takes is for one kid's parent to sue OSU. OSU can't let this type of behavior continue and permeate a culture or else it is negligent. Waters had to go if he couldn't step up and stop this kind of stuff from continuing.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

+3 HS
bbb's picture

Summary of the opinions in this thread:

"Sexual harassment is deplorable, just so long as we're not talking about Ohio State, which can do no wrong, except when it unjustly fires someone complicit in sexual harassment"

-10 HS
AngryWoody's picture

I'm seeing a lot of people say he deserved to go, so this isn't completely true.

Our Honor Defend!

+3 HS
cajunbuckeye's picture

Looking at your posts,BBB, the summary of the opinions about you in this thread are....negative.

An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches

+4 HS
elitesmithie's picture

So I am assuming he was giving time to address issues and they weren't fixed? Like they didn't just fire him without giving an opportunity to address things correct?

+1 HS
bbb's picture

He's been the director since 2012, so he had almost 2 years to address the issues. I'm not quite sure if you understand how egregious policy violation works

-7 HS
elitesmithie's picture

Well considering what most people have said that this has gone on for "years" and he was working to improve the situation I was asking if he improved but not quick enough or if they suprised him with the firing.

Also, and I mean this with all do respect; you are a condescending  prick.

+6 HS
bbb's picture

It's easy to fix the problem if you actually want to: kick off members of the band who violate sexual harassment policy. That sends a message pretty quickly. Yes I'm a condescending prick, and that's all "due" respect

-10 HS
AngryWoody's picture

I find myself agreeing with you on the facts but you don't have to be a jerk about it. There's no reason for that.

Our Honor Defend!

+5 HS
AngryWoody's picture

Made the front page of ESPN's "college football" page...

Our Honor Defend!

-2 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

A classic case of good clean fun going too far. It sounds like the line was crossed long ago, and Waters wasn't able get back across it. On one hand, it seems unfortunate that he walked into a bad situation, on the other hand, he could've done more to correct the situation. 

Hopefully the next man up can straighten things out. TBDBITL needs to be better than this. 

-2 HS
bbb's picture

saying that this was just "good clean fun" heavily implies you didn't read the report

-7 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

Saying I didn't read the report implies you didn't read my comment past the first sentence. Good clean fun gone too far. I'm sure most of these instances started out innocently enough. Taping a freshman to a goal post is fun until it truly bothers someone, or goes on too long. Band nicknames are fun until they become offensive. I'm not trying to justify the abuse, just pointing out that it seems to have spiraled out of control. 

+2 HS
RedStorm45's picture

250 comments in and no one's blamed Fickell yet?

+16 HS
Zaphod Beeblebrox's picture

Can we blame Terrelle Pryor?

+2 HS
Jdadams01's picture

Two things:

1. The absolute right decision was made here, IMO.

2. TBDBITL is bigger than it's director and will be fine.

+8 HS
AndyVance's picture

2. TBDBITL is bigger than it's director and will be fine.

While I agree with the first half of that statement, I'm not sure we have enough evidence to accept your conclusion. Consider that Waters was replacing a man who had been at the helm for decades, and that it was assumed on his retirement that there would be some adjustments - growing pains, as it were. Now less than two years into Waters' tenure he is fired... I think it will be very difficult, especially at this point in the "season," so to speak, so see someone step up and take the baton without some major challenges.

Long term the band will be fine? Probably. But I would say it's a bit cavalier to just assume that lopping off the head of the giant won't yield some deleterious consequences (in terms of the band's performance, that is).

+3 HS
Jdadams01's picture

Agreed that there will be pains, but much like the team, the band will be fine in time. The administration knows how important this new hire will be and I expect them to pick a winner. The fanbase and band members will not stop striving for band excellence because of this. 

yrro's picture

I think it goes even deeper than that.

The camaraderie within the band, the traditions of the rows, the rookie initiation... they're all a huge part of what makes the band the band. It's a very militaristic institution. The members are fiercely loyal to the band as an institution.

I'm not saying you *can't* have those things without inappropriate hazing. Of course you can. I'm saying that it's going to take a very delicate and skilled hand to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Whoever they hire for the next band director has a hell of a task in front of them.

+7 HS
Chip's picture

I'm pretty sure many other bands have found ways to achieve camaraderie without mock sex acts.

yrro's picture

I agree *completely*.

My point is that in the current circumstances, there's going to be strong pressure to do more than say "no sexual rookie tricks" or "no sexually-themed nicknames." It'll be "no rookie nicknames", "no rookie tricks," and that's striking at the heart of the traditional structure of the band, rather than just trying to sanitize it. It's the sort of thing that can split the senior leadership of the band, split the alumni base.

Changing the culture of an institution like that is a *big deal.* Look at Michigan football.

Part of what makes the band is its tradition. Whoever is hired is going to need to go at that tradition with a scalpel, not a chain saw, if they want TBDBITL to still be TBDBITL.

+3 HS
bbb's picture

The pro-sexual harassment football forum downvote zombies have taken over this thread

-10 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

no, the anti "im going to call everyone a Penn State fanboy" commentors got tired of your outcries!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+11 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

for everyone who is saying "its been like this for decades" and "what, out of nowhere",

does anyone recall that many universities, including our own OSU, are under investigation for Title IX in the past year?

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-department-education-releases-l...

Whetever happened 10 years ago, or just only 1 year ago, is no longer the same! The US department of Education is bearing down on all these universities to clean up their act. If Drake and the OSU administration didn't do this, this could become a whole lot worst!

AND STOP REFERRING TO PENN STATE! If anything refer to the FAMU hazing as a comparable event. It is aggrevating reading these comments about comparing opinions on here to those of the PSU faithful. ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+8 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

FAMU was the first thing to come to my mind. If that wasn't a wake-up call to the rest of the country, this will be. 

d5k's picture

This is actually more akin to the Jonathan Martin scandal.  While this is collegiate vs. professional, NFL locker rooms are treated like fraternities.  AFAIK there is no case of physical harm but at least one case of emotional harm and anecdotes of several cases where someone realistically could be harmed emotionally.

+2 HS
Nappy's picture

Tressel knew in 2005

Fan of bacon since 1981

+1 HS
canukeye's picture

"Squirt"! I don't care who you are that's funny!

It's not the band that I hate.  It's the fans.

-2 HS
BME_Buckeye's picture

Who will dot the I in YOU'RE FiRED...

Look closely, because the closer you think you are, the less you will actually see.

 

+4 HS
dubjayfootball90's picture

wtf...

You can feed a bobcat all the chili it wants. That don't mean it's going to crap out diamonds.

+2 HS
Bucksfan's picture

I honestly thought the headline "sexualized culture" was going to be followed by stories of cocaine-fueled orgies on the 50 yard line, sex tape rings, forced oral sex games at parties, rape, etc.  You know, things that have been known to happen at colleges.  Do we need to address college football recruiting borderline-prostitution/sexually objectifying hostess programs to which administrations turn a plausible deniability blind eye (Ohio State Football has a hostess program, ask anyone that works for the Athletic Office)? 

Some of these band stories, like some of the obscene "tricks," were certainly over the line, sure, as were the ripping off clothes of the rookies on the bus (sounds like that had been phased out).  The Trip Tic is abhorrent, but Waters actually put an end to it 2 years ago according to the report.  Those definitely constitute hazing.  But from the sound of it, the Midnight Ramp tradition doesn't sound that different than the Mirror Lake jump (which the band was not allowed to attend up until last year, mind you) (EDIT: And if any of you tried to tell me that you wouldn't march the ramp entrance naked if you got the chance, I'd call you a MF'ing liar, and ask for your Buckeye fan membership card to be handed over).  Asking rookies sexually charged questions?  That was pretty much day 1 in the dorms freshman year for me at OSU.

So, I don't know, you guys.  If you talk to anyone that was ever in their school's band, a lot of these things happen at the high school level (obscene nicknames, inappropriate words to fight songs).  Hell, my high school's band was banned from least 2 different camps while I was there, and we were a Catholic school.

The Leyland Stanford Junior University Marching Band just called us "fucking amateurs" today, btw.

Anyway, that's just my take.

+15 HS
d5k's picture

Pretty sure Jon Waters didn't know what "Tiggles" means.  I had to look it up on Urban dictionary and I'm 31.  Changing on the bus most likely did not involve stripping down naked and every high school band does it.  Midnight ramp only seems sexualized in the context of the aggregation of all the other dirty/practical jokes and nicknames which also happens in high school band.  Remember what happened when they tried to put a fence up around Mirror Lake?

+2 HS
andretolstoy's picture

tiggle
A non-asian person who poses as an asian, or possesses "asianisms".
My god lauren, that sanrio shirt makes you look like such a tiggle.
 

OH the humanity!

+1 HS
Poison nuts's picture

Oh no - you left the door open for an "OSU Band playing Stanford Football" joke.

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+2 HS
Bucksfan's picture

"Bastard, that's so good it should have been mine."

+2 HS
OH1O State's picture

This one time, at band camp...
  

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

MikeEagleBuckeye's picture

Really a damn shame that Waters had to be the fall guy for up to 60-70 years of tradition. He didn't deserve that at all.

+11 HS
Gametime's picture

So it's cool for Urban to call Raekwon "Bubble" and we all think it's funny, but just because some people in TBDBITL have awkward nicknames a guy gets fired? Talk about double standards...

Between goals and achievement is discipline and consistency. That fire you have inside to do whatever you love is placed there by God. Now go claim it. ~ Denzel Washington

+1 HS
Scarlet_Buckeye's picture

So.... let's get to what we all really want to know...

(1) Does the NCAA govern collegiate marching bands?  Band members aren't considered student-athletes... are they? (Side comment... are cheerleaders considered student-athletes?)

(2) How much $$$ will this cost the University?  There's already the costs of hiring these public auditing teams (Ernst & Young)... what about the unnecessary money that will now have to be spent for consoling, training, potential lawsuits, etc.  I know this isn't quite on the same level of Penn State & Jerry Sandusky, but that scandal shook Penn State for $171 million (and counting).  I have to imagine this will easily cost us at least a couple million.

For those taking this lightly... this is NOT GOOD.

+1 HS
BHT's picture

I am not sure as to the answers but I do believe that band members are not student athletes because marching band is not considered a sport. Cheerleading is (side note: why is cheerleading a sport but not band?) so I think that they are student athletes. Not sure whether the NCAA governs marching band or not.

+1 HS
Citrus's picture

Title IX dictates that Cheerleading is NOT a sport. This i to prevent universities from using it to offset male athletic programs.

+5 HS
bbb's picture

Seriously, this thread makes ohio state fans look like horrible people

-10 HS
TedGinnIsFasterThanYou's picture

BBB is either a ND, PSU, or TTUN fan.

-3 HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

News Flash. College students drink and have sex.  News Flash, the culture of 99% of the colleges out there is licentious behavior. (Franciscan University of Steubenville not withstanding) I'd wager the dorm parties in Drackett Tower were worse.

On the wall guarding the North Coast from all Weasel invasions.

+2 HS
bbb's picture

News flash: Ohio State can't employee someone who promotes it

-4 HS
1stYrBuckIClub's picture

Don't know if someone posted (really don't wanna read all 309 posts) but this is now on the four letter networks front page headlines... So doesn't that mean band is now a sport?

BHT's picture

The band is so big and popular that it should be no surprise that this made ESPN. Unfortunately, band is not a sport.

+2 HS
RedStorm45's picture

Try telling that to the guys and gals who march DCI all summer long.

+1 HS
BHT's picture

Why is it that this always happens in the offseason (I don't want it to happen at all). This is not good news. As a high school marching band member, this hurts. I loved the shows under Waters. It does not change my view of the marching band, but this is a sad sight. Ohio State did the right thing given the circumstances. 

The band is bigger that the director, and the excellence will continue (on the field), and hopefully, this will be a learning experience. After all, remember the last time that there was an interm band director at Ohio State? Waters got the full time job because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngjcAvg6TYg

bucks15's picture

Might not be a popular opinion but i'm disappointed Waters was fired.  It seems to me we lost a great Band Director who was merely a victim of "falling on the sword" of a long standing culture.  Based on reports Waters was actually trying to eliminate some of this behavior, which is more than other directors have done in the past.  Don't see much harm in this, especially when most of the band members embraced it.   

+5 HS
Nutty's picture

I agree that Waters was the one who suffered the consequences after decades of wrong doing. But who should they punish? He was the one caught in time. From what the OSU president said,and others, he really didn't do much to correct the wrong, he actually did very little. He certainly wasn't the only one to blame but he was to blame and the only one who could be punished.

Chip's picture

So most of the band members embraced explicit and sexual activities, and therefore the band director shouldn't be fired for promoting it?  Holy cow some of you have lost your minds.

brutusbuckeye95's picture

I can't imagine what happened at OSU band camp... but anyone who watched American Pie isn't shocked by this news.

BrutusBuckeye95

+1 HS
brutusbuckeye95's picture

so now we know the real reason Tressel resigned...

BrutusBuckeye95

-1 HS
osubuckeye4life's picture

The everyone is doing it excuse. DOESN'T WORK!

It is ingrained in the culture of the program. DOESN'T WORK!

College students are highly sexualized and have been for years. DOESN'T WORK!

It is all in good fun. DOESN'T WORK!

This is TODAY, not 20+ years ago.

Also, some of stuff continued to happen on Water's watch. 

It is terrible, but it had to be done. 

+5 HS
dsbgobux's picture

Jon Waters has been part of TBDBITL  since his days as a student. I was not in the band but knew about all of these activities (92-97). He may have only been the director for two years but was the assistant for 10. He could have taken care of some of these issues years ago if he had thought it was inappropriate. Unfortunately he did nothing until it was too late. All of the teachers at my school just went through a sexual harassment class and in today's world if one individual feels harassed it is harassment irregardless of the intent.

Buckeye in PA purgatory

+3 HS
Go1Bucks's picture

.Not sure how to reference this properly:

per Mercurious:http://www.elevenwarriors.com/the-ohio-state-university/2014/07/37842/au...

From Reddit user mermur, not me:

OSU marching band female alum here. I was a member from 2003-2007 while Jon Waters was the assistant director. I never had an offensive/sexual rookie name or trick, nor was I ever sexually harassed. I can address every claim made in the dispatch article and most of the official 23 page report if anyone wants, but instead I'll say OSU band was one of the best experiences of my life. I came from a very sheltered upbringing and was definitely surprised by some of the traditions, but never felt threatened or uncomfortable. I was immediately told by the older male members that I didn't have to participate in anything I felt offended by or uncomfortable with. I chose to participate in midnight ramp (marching in my underwear), but I was never forced to drink or perform sexually explicit acts. I always felt like my best interest was kept in mind, protected by the older members, and met a lot of great people and lifelong friends. Jon Waters was always the toughest of all the directors about inappropriate nicknames, tricks, and questionable traditions. In fact he was often criticized by members as being lame and form wanting to change our long standing but offensive traditions.

One whiney ass family is happy with his sacking, but I guarantee the band will suffer without his leadership. He's simply the scapegoat for these accusations, just being the director at the wrong time. I stand behind him 100% and hope to see the university president make more terrible decisions so HIS ass will eventually be canned.

Go Bucks!

+5 HS
Bucksfan70's picture

the real issue here is the manipulation of the brainwashed and hypersensitive masses, through the mass media, for a political agenda.

“Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can accomplish what others can't.” - Jerry Rice

+6 HS
causeicouldntgo43's picture

I hate the fucking off-season.

+1 HS
Nicholas Jervey's picture

How good to see that in difficult times like this, our community unites with one voice. Blech.

Ceci n'est pas une signature.

ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

But but but.. it's still the best damn voice in the land!  

As we say in our org... if you're going to fail, fail fiercely!

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

+1 HS
Urban Nation Army's picture

Here comes the wrongful termination play:

Bet you can't say "Bert Bielma is a bumbling buffoon" five times fast.

+6 HS
Chip's picture

This would be the worst wrongful termination case in history.  

+2 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

As I rebutted in another thread, just because it may seem to most to be a loser, it doesn't mean it won't get filed....

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

Jabba1977's picture

This really sucks!!Hopefully it will be straightened out sooner than later!!!The Best Damn Band In The Land is still the best!! I am just really sad this happened!!

SECHATER77

irishfury's picture

Ehhh I don't know enough to make a comment.  This stuff runs rampant everywhere.  I think members of the band know better then annyone.

+1 HS
MaximusBlue's picture

Damn...damn...damn

-1 HS
cinserious's picture

And we all thought we only had to worry about the football players staying out of trouble during the summer..... SHEEESH!

Life's daily struggle is choosing between saying F--ck-it, or soldiering on with your responsibilities.  

+3 HS
Go1Bucks's picture

I tried to tell y'all Drake the Mistake was a major misstep.  Holbrook all over again.  Whiny PC BS.  18+ are adults.  They bear responsibility as well. Fuck us all.

Go Bucks!

-10 HS
DJ Byrnes's picture

Horrendously stupid opinion.

Californian by birth, Marionaire by the Grace of President Warren G. Harding.

TedGinnIsFasterThanYou's picture

Go1Bucks is 100% correct, I don't care how unpopular it is on here...but he's right.

-2 HS
FROMTHE18's picture

Suppose with everything thats happened in college sports over the last 5-10 years involving many administrations turning a blind eye to things like these, harsh punishments must be handed out, even for things that can be deemed relatively petty. Its a shame, and he is arguably the best at what he does, but heres to hoping the situation gets resolved and we can hire someone just as good if not better to continue the success of TBDITL.

TedGinnIsFasterThanYou's picture

BBB is an anti-OSU troll.

-1 HS
hetuck's picture

1. The Wisconsin band affair should have been a warning.

2. I don't understand the changing on the bus issue. You know it's going to happen. Wear gym shorts and a sports bra under your uniform.

3. Can Title IX follow you? The Vandy allegations are worse than this. If found true, what does PSU do with Franklin?

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

+3 HS
buckeyefan333's picture

Does anybody really think that firing him will change those band traditions? I read the report and correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in it does it say anything about him personally doing anything to a member.  It seems like while he did not himself participate in those activities while head of the band, he just failed to act which allowed them to continue.  

Do we really think that the next band director will be any different?  The students will still have some form of hazing or initiation, they'll just probably be more cautious on how they do it and more selective on where it takes place.  It seems to me that nothing is going to change, save a senior using a freshman's nickname in front of a director.  

Firing Jon Waters (whether right or wrong) isn't going to fix the problem, it is only going to redirect where and when it takes place.  

+2 HS
Arizona_Buckeye's picture

Damn it - his halftime shows were sick!  However, I will cede judgement to the university for doing what is right for the university!  Sometimes tradition needs to adopt to the current time for what was once common practice is now no longer tolerated!

The best thing about Pastafarianism? It is not only acceptable, but advisable, to be heavily sauced

Fogt13's picture

I understand how some people are saying that firing him will not change a thing, but I dont see one thing in this report that OSU released that could justify not letting him go. He admitted to knowing that some of these things happen and in todays day and age you can not do any of this. I was in a fraternity in college and this happened to us, we had to start eliminating certain things we did to comply to todays standards. Some people didnt like the change but you have to change to avoid lawsuits and humiliating articles like the one published by OSU about this mess. Its either let him go, or dismiss all the band members and start over, because all of them knew about it.

Go Buckeyes! Go Bengals! Go Reds!
My true love will always be Rosie

+1 HS
BTBuckeye's picture

If they felt they had to fire him so be it....sounds like Fake Outrage if you ask me.

+3 HS
RubixTube's picture

I stayed with this thread yesterday to see what the community was thinking while also talking to my brother-in-law who was a music major at OSU (96-00) and knows John Waters on a personal level.  In essence, he echo'd my thoughts that while it is unfortunately that Waters has to suffer the punishment for decades of wrongdoing, something needed to be done to clean up TBDBITL and, in the long run, this will benefit all involved (with the sad exception of Waters)

If i'm just rehashing someone else's sentiments (as I expect I am with almost 400 comments), I apologize.

Never before in the history of man have lives less lived been more chronicled. - Dennis Miller

+5 HS
AndyVance's picture

Your BIL's comments square with what I've heard elsewhere - that there is a great deal of tension/dislike between the School of Music and the Marching Band. Was your BIL in the Band, just out of curiosity?

RubixTube's picture

He was in symphonic/concert band, did not march.  He had some choice words for Dr. John Woods, mostly the same sentiments being directed towards Waters today. 

Never before in the history of man have lives less lived been more chronicled. - Dennis Miller

brandonbauer87's picture

I know it's not the point, but does anyone else have a problem with parents getting involved? Obviously, this situation was wrong, and that's not my point. I just think parents should quit fighting battles for their children once they become adults. 

+1 HS
RubixTube's picture

Echoing one of my initial thoughts....at what point does the University say "thank you random parent for voicing your concern.  However, your son/daughter is in college...this would be a perfect time for you to explain to him/her that, as an adult, he/she will need to address this issue with the university directly.  We do not take 2nd hand complaint calls"

Never before in the history of man have lives less lived been more chronicled. - Dennis Miller

+4 HS
weirdscience's picture

Maybe not THE point, but a good one nonetheless. This is what happens when a society attempts to make the world a padded cell for its children (they never grow up). 

+3 HS
RedStorm45's picture

Not going to say that I agree or disagree with the firing - that's the University's call - but as a director, even with a staff, it's extremely difficult to get 225 college kids to cut out some provocative jokes, nicknames, and drinking.  I imagine he was more worried about putting on the show with the drill & music and likely didn't have time to walk around practice everyday to make sure no one was using the dumb nicknames or tricks or whatever else was in the report.

This might be the first step to changing the "culture," but the only way it completely changes is if all 225 kids buy in, most especially the leaders and upperclassmen.

+2 HS
Poison nuts's picture

Ramzy, I'll be looking forward to your take.

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+1 HS
FairfaxBuckeye's picture
-1 HS
Prickly_Pete's picture

I just saw the story headline on Yahoo and Jim Rome mentioned it on his show.  I hate to see TBDBITL and tOSU tarnished like this.  The TBDBITL halftime shows are revolutionary and I hope the next director will continue it.  I’m concerned that a lot of talented people (Gee, Waters, Tressell) get thrown overboard so easily when mistakes are made.  I’d like to see tOSU stand by its people a little more and give them a second chance.  Obviously Gee, Waters and the Tressel situations are different in terms of the severity of the mistakes made, but I don’t know that a quick firing is always the best answer.  Most people learn from mistakes and become better people. Redemption is good.

+4 HS
BayCountyBuck's picture

A risky first dive into the comment pool at 11W...the whole situation is sad, for OSU, the band,  Dr. Waters' career, but especially for the young people involved. I cannot imagine telling anyone's daughter to toughen up or handle a situation like this herself, as a parent, you entrust the health and safety of your kids to faculty/staff/coaches etc. While the jokes and songbooks may be in poor taste to some, if a young lady (or many young ladies based on the allegations in the report) was subjected to harrassing behavior under the alleged supervision of the staff/director of the band, then the result is clearly jusitified. Let's hope this ugly chapter gets put behind OSU quickly and the new director can implement the changes Dr. Waters was unable to complete.

+2 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

I applaud and upvote the stance. This is a sad time for the whole band and college community alike.

I similarly will take a deeper and riskier dive. Call it a higher degree of difficulty.

An 18 year-old can fight and die for his/her country. They should at least have the fortitude to go and meet face-to-face with the band director (and members of the compliance committee or some advocacy group as witnesses) to air such grievances. Having mommy and daddy go do it is classless and cowardly.

For all those who will smear this with "I hope you don't have a daughter", "what would you do if this happened to your daughter", etc. - I do have one. She's 23 years old and tough as hell. I am immensely proud to say that after consulting with me, she would go and get someone from student government to accompany her, and she would go straight to the person she felt had condoned these infractions to address it with him/her directly. Afterwards, if there was no action taken, she would escalate. That's how adults handle things.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

+6 HS
weirdscience's picture

May I ask why you "cannot imagine" telling another adult to handle a situation on her own instead of having her parents handle it for her? 

+1 HS
BuckeyeVet's picture

My neice was a 5 year sousaphone player & "I" dotter who was in the band last fall. I'm looking forward to hearing her take on Waters being fired, etc.... I also know that some band members are 11W members and I would like to hear what they think.

Addendum as of 7/25/14 4:45 pm : Her take, on the record "He is being blamed for years of tradition that he tried harder than anyone to fix. Unfair and unwarranted."

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."          - Groucho Marx

 

+5 HS
BayCountyBuck's picture

Sure, I'm without the full facts, namely what did the young complainant do prior to 5/23 when her parents got involved? To me, telling a freshman to handle an allegation of sexual harrassment against  an institution as powerful as TOSUMB herself seems unimaginable. For now at least it seems OSU is fortunate she chose to involve her parents and not do the all so common "adult" thing and hire a Gloria Allred type to handle it instead. I don't think this is an issue of padding the cell against the world, this is exactly the type of issue that parents should be involved with, too many times parents don't get involved until it is too late and then are left asking why didn't I get involved sooner? 

+1 HS
weirdscience's picture

I would have no issue with the involvement of parents (or other trusted people) if initial attempts to resolve the issue were stonewalled. Hell, all of us adults need help from time to time. If, however, an adult's first instinct upon meeting a real world challenge is to call Mommy and Daddy, I would tend to think that that person's self-reliance and personal responsibility are lacking. 

+4 HS
Catfish Biff's picture

I wonder if things are going to go back to traditional halftime shows without the animations. The purists may have their way....

..Til' we wobble in our shoes!

FUqUespin's picture

This one time at TBDBITL Camp...