TBDBITL Alumni Strike Back: Ohio State Officials Knew About Midnight Ramp, Mischaracterized Witness Statements

By DJ Byrnes on August 12, 2014 at 12:30p

TBDBITL at Cal-Berkely in 2013

170 Comments

It's been over two weeks since Ohio State fired band director Jon Waters due to what university officials called the "sexualized culture" of the band. Alumni of the band, however, aren't ready to pack in their instruments and head home.

Alexandra Clark a.k.a. Joobs — or "Jewoobs" as she was known in the university's 23-page report against Jon Waters — was the first band member named in the report to speak out against the university's characterization of Jon Waters' and the band's culture.

Today, Rebecca DeMattia, a band member for five years and one of nine former/current band members interviewed by OSU investigators, spoke to Columbus' NBC4 to express her "dissatisfaction" of how her statements were presented in the report.

DeMattia disagreed, saying, "At no point did I indicate to the investigator that Mr. Waters cursed directly at me, as the report states." 

She went on to say, "The idea that he would be dismissive of sexual harassment is absurd…Mr. Waters personally helped in tough situations. Yet, as far as I can see, the entirety of that was excluded from the report." 

In her letter to the university, DeMattia said, "In my discussion with the investigator, I specifically noted that at no point did I feel unsafe or sexually harassed." 

(DeMattia's letter can be viewed in full at the end of this post.)

This is on top of yesterday's allegations in which band alumni claim Ohio State officials, including university police and athletic department officials, knew about "Midnight Ramp;" the tradition where band members took to Ohio Stadium's field in their underwear.

In their report, the university said the event took place without band staff present until 2010.

Again, from NBC4:

The university police department was front and center, according to students, watching the band members perform – many in their underwear.

"They would just stand on the sidelines from what I can remember. They were smiling, laughing. They thought it was fun like we did," said Anabelle Malcolm, a two-year band member.

OSU's athletic director, Gene Smith, told Eleven Warriors' Patrick Maks that he "wasn't involved" in the firing process of Jon Waters, but that he supported President Michael Drake's decision to fire him.

According to Malcolm, however, the scoreboard was lit up during Midnight Ramp:

"The scoreboard was lit up. It had a custom message on it that said Midnight Ramp. I believe as we started the ramp, the scoreboard was playing exactly what they would have during a regular game," Malcolm said.

The scoreboard with custom graphics was operated by OSU athletics and facilities personnel.

As Gene Smith noted in his interview with Maks: Ohio State has created a special committee to investigate the claims of the initial report further. 

Jon Waters unleashed a media blitz last week, saying he'd help Ohio State fix the band's culture, but only if he were restored to his "dream job."


Here, via NBC4, is Rebecca DeMattia's letter in full:

 

170 Comments

Comments

apack614's picture

2 weeks ago I felt the right decision was made. Now I'm just confused.

"If we worked half as hard as our band, we'd be champions." - Woody Hayes

+41 HS
Frimmel's picture

Two weeks ago I suspected that Waters had been thrown under the bus to cover asses in case of a lawsuit and to pre-emptively bow to political correctness. The more I hear from these band members the more certain I become that my suspicion isn't entirely unfounded.

+63 HS
BuckeyeMike74's picture

This!  I sense too there was an attempt of the new president to send a message in his new job.  And remember... this is college!  I did all this stuff from 94-98 and I was just a regular student!

+3 HS
Zimmy07's picture

At first I thought they were justified in erring on the side of caution, now I think they made the wrong decision from not enough investigation of the facts.

+9 HS
sarasotabcg's picture

APACK614, that's because 2 weeks ago the way this was reported was biased as was the report itself.

+11 HS
GlueFingers Lavelli's picture

Yea I would say so. I think they fired Waters to avoid a PC and media nightmare right before the season began. Easier to just fire a guy and get everyone to back off opposed to doing a thorough investigation..... that takes time.  The internet readers of the world demand an answer NOW!

Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.

+5 HS
ClintS307's picture

Take a stroll around the block.  It'll all make sense then.

+6 HS
RC's picture

Two weeks ago we weren't supposed to have dissenting opinions on this matter.  Hopefully that has changed.  

+2 HS
seafus26's picture

Sounds like some one had a personal axe to grind against Waters, and the investigator was probably reminded by this said axe grinder who is paying for the investigation.

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

+25 HS
BUCKSOMIES's picture

I,m with you SeaFus. This seems like a personal vendetta against Waters and/or the OSU Band.  I smell a rat.

+3 HS
yrro's picture

We know at least one of the band members appears to have a personal issue with him, as they released a hidden recording of him dressing them down.

+5 HS
nw_ohio_Buckeye's picture

Yup. And when asked about it Waters chose to be less than truthful...then they showed him the tape. Ooops. We'll never know the whole truth and that truth probably looks very different depending on your point of reference. TBDBITL will continue undaunted. Go Bucks!

"The minute I think I'm getting mellow, I'm retiring. Who ever heard of a mellow winner?" ~ Woody Hayes 

+1 HS
yrro's picture

Yeah, "Never cursed at a student" is something I'm not sure any college teacher could honestly say. Sounds like a pretty dumb thing to get on record.

+1 HS
OHCelt's picture

No, there was no tape to show, it was just audio. The fact is that this individual was the Drum Major, the supposed leader of the OSUMB, and the only Band member with a full tuition scholarship. The kid was a louse - he was suspended for four games by Waters because he did an unauthorised radio interview and trashed the rest of the Band and the University. Before this incident, he openly mouthed off at the Associate Director in front of the rest of the Band, just the latest in a long string ways he failed at his job, and abused his position. Waters did him the courtesy of reprimanding him in private, when he could have dressed him down in front of the whole Band, for which consideration the weasel decided to secretly record what he knew would be a confrontational interview. How do you suppose a similar situation would have gone had it been one of Urban Meyers' team leaders instead? As I have said repeatedly, you cannot trust a single word of the Glaros Report.

+9 HS
spqr2008's picture

It's really looking like the Title IX office and Compliance needed someone fired to save their own jobs (because tOSU got put on the Department of Education's s*** list), and managed to scrape up just enough, and write it in such a way that Drake had no choice but to fire Waters when confronted with that report (plus, it helps him get in good with the Music Department, who never liked Waters in the first place).  I can't say that I blame Drake for this, considering all of the players involved worked for tOSU before he arrived.  It would've been bad for him if he rejected the report outright, because initially at a new job, you do have to have some trust of your subordinates and their integrity.

+1 HS
BTBuckeye's picture

This is what happens when your bow tie is tied too tight.

Long live Gee

+23 HS
ScarletArrow's picture

The damage has been done... even if the university were to somehow admit they over-reached, there is no way Waters gets his job back.

+10 HS
Poison nuts's picture

When it's all said & done, that may be the saddest part of all of this. They will look like complete fools if they bring him back, so they won't do it if for no other reason than to save face. I'll go ahead throw out a curse word here as it's appropriate  - this whole thing is fucked.

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+5 HS
osu07asu10's picture

According to Malcolm, however, the scoreboard was lit up during Midnight Ramp:

"The scoreboard was lit up. It had a custom message on it that said Midnight Ramp. I believe as we started the ramp, the scoreboard was playing exactly what they would have during a regular game," Malcolm said.

The scoreboard with custom graphics was operated by OSU athletics and facilities personnel.

I can tell you unequivocally that this is not true from 2005 through present. At no point did OSU athletic department personnel, athletic facilities personnel, or ohio state police department ever participate, light the field or scoreboard for the event from 2005 to present.

For those that do not know, the band center is located in the stadium on the east side. They have their own separate entrance that goes to the band center however can get access to the shoe through stairwells.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+2 HS
manofmanynames's picture

While the athletic department may not have known or participated, the facilities department and Ohio State police had to have known.  No way does the horseshoe get lit up around midnight for a supposed nonsanctioned/unsupervised event and neither of those departments get notified that something is happening inside the shoe.

You Win With People

+13 HS
ManOfSky's picture

I can tell you unequivocally that this is not true from 2005 through present. At no point did OSU athletic department personnel, athletic facilities personnel, or ohio state police department ever participate, light the field or scoreboard for the event from 2005 to present.

I can't factually confirm what you are saying, but it sounds dead on. I worked for OSU Athletic Facilities at the shoe for 3 years and never heard of the "Midnight Ramp." I would be very surprised if anybody within the Facilites department was involved.

+2 HS
VarsityClubMD's picture

I was not in the Band nor did I work for Facilities but I've heard of "Midnight Ramp".

Dot this

+10 HS
d5k's picture

I don't think every member of a department needs to be aware of something for the "department" to be aware of it.  And I think that it would be by design for not too many people to know about a secret tradition that is passed on for generations.

+4 HS
MrMeanMan's picture

While the band does have access to the stadium from Steinbrenner, it does not have access to the scoreboard controls or the lock for the gate at the ramp. One recent year, the gate was locked and the students hopped over the gate anyways. It's also not like the scoreboard controls are left unguarded and unlocked when everyone is gone-trust me, I've tried to get in there. The band would not have been able to do this event for this many years (especially since the renovation) without the help of the stadium personnel. 

+9 HS
mh277907's picture

I can tell you unequivocally that this is not true from 2005 through present. At no point did OSU athletic department personnel, athletic facilities personnel, or ohio state police department ever participate, light the field or scoreboard for the event from 2005 to present.

May I ask how it is that you know that she is lying? I am not questioning you but it seems like a very, very odd thing for her to lie about.

buckeyebobcat

+3 HS
yrro's picture

Seems reasonable for both to be true. Sounds like someone had a friend on the facilities staff who snuck in and lit up the scoreboard for them.

osu07asu10's picture

Besides working for athletic facilities from 05-08, I asked the former facilities manager and current facilities manager for the shoe if they ever allowed or knew or and both said absolutely not.

Scoreboard is ran from the press box and not by the facilities guys.

Maybe she was talking about a time before 2005 but definitely not an event that facilities took part in since 05.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+1 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

Kids are very clever at finding ways around preventive measures and/or lying about knowing ways around them. In principle, it's easy to see why the facilities managers would say "no way", but I saw first hand that kids used to be able to smuggle a keg in for use in the upper level of B deck in section 11; how does that happen without an insider? Answer: not possible.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

+1 HS
BAR43's picture

And to play devils advocate... you don't think there is chance that either of those people might be covering their a$$ by stating they knew nothing?! All I am saying is the higher ups are not going to roll over anytime soon and admit they knew or they were wrong, and nobody involved at the facility level is just going to throw themselves under the bus if this "investigation" is already done.

+2 HS
osu07asu10's picture

And to play devils advocate... you don't think there is chance that either of those people might be covering their a$$ by stating they knew nothing?! 

Nope, not at all. The former manager has already been let go and has no reason to not toss everyone under the bus. The current facilities manager is an extremely close friend who we've both done more than our fair share of bad in the shoe,...but not this.

Again, maybe an AV guy let it happen but from the Facilities Asoociate AD down to the student workers, I know that none of them actively/knowingly participated.

I'm not stating the scoreboard wasn't on, or the flood lights weren't turned on. However, the only way to control the flood lights were via the managers office who few people had keys to. It may have happened, it did not happen with the assistance of athletic facilities.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

Oakland Buckeye's picture

Said all along too many people on this site including some writers were rushing to judgement. I have a HS classmate who played for the Bucks from 76-80 whose daughter is in the band - & he has been one of the ringleaders in trying to get Waters restored. I signed his petition out of trust for who he is.

9 out of over 4000 people interviewed to determine culture? total railroad job. and several of those were mischaracterized. wow

+32 HS
sarasotabcg's picture

agree 100%.

A bunch of people on this site have some explaining to do.

+6 HS
bucked up's picture

Absolutely. 

I love this site and its writers. But the staff did a poor job with this. I remember DJ chastising those who disagreed with this abrupt firing on skull session the following day, telling those who didnt "100% agree with the decision to take a walk around the block." Whether or not Waters ultimately deserves to be fired, the fact of the matter is that you shouldn't try to discourage other people from expressing their opinions without knowing all of the facts. 

Johnny was another one that couldn't wait to grab a torch on this subject without even hearing a rebuttal from the band members or Waters. As Ohio State football fans, I'd like to think that you guys would understand, from experience, how imperative it is to wait for facts and credible details before rushing to judgement. 

+32 HS
Fatpants's picture

Which one said he was embarrassed at some of the responses (in defense of Waters)?

sarasotabcg's picture

and later we had SquirrelMaster start a thread trying to defend DJ......  calling that thread an epic failure is an insult to epic failures.

+3 HS
Hovenaut's picture

He (SquirrelMaster) had a right to offer his opinion though, as you do yours here.

This entire situation is a tough subject, respectfully understanding it's affecting many in the OSU (and 11W) community.

Just a friendly reminder (to all) to engage in courteous and respectful discussions (of varying opinions) among one another.

Hate Week runneth over

+4 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Didn't read the original article because quite frankly I don't have any interest in the band. But it sounds like they are saying this needs to be directed at a few journalists first. 

-1 HS
Hovenaut's picture

I'm hearing the same, agreed.

I'm not going to speak for the staff, but I feel they'd welcome any feedback.

Hate Week runneth over

Squirrel Master's picture

Sarasota, the only epic failure on that thread was you. and you still don't get the message.

I have not defended DJ's stance on the Jon Waters situation. My stance has always been that this is a through and through Title IX investigation move. Waters is a fall guy for something that the University is being investigated on.

and the point of that, see the helmet stickers if you like to see the epicness of that post, is DJ has the right to share his opinion and you don't have to read it, follow it or do anything with it but disagree. You can disagree, what is DJ going to do with you.

you just want to claim conspiracy at everything and feel you are being "forced" to think like us. its a joke!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+1 HS
Hoody Wayes's picture

+1: I remember DJ chastising those who disagreed with this abrupt firing on skull session the following day, telling those who didnt "100% agree with the decision to take a walk around the block.

DJ loves language. But, he has a penchant for hyperbole and for being over-zealous. Both will undermine a writer's credibility, if unchecked.

+5 HS
FLAMikey's picture

And for jumping on the bandwagon that appears to have the populist momentum. But sometimes the wheels fall off the bandwagon.

+5 HS
Hoody Wayes's picture

Rock'n'roll! 

Fu^&in' A!

-1 HS
741's picture

Title IX problems... This is a god awful unforeseen outcome of a set of policies meant to do good. It really sucks for Waters and Ohio State as an institution - we look ridiculous no matter what.

+12 HS
Frimmel's picture

Title IX is a good law. There are many good things that have come from it like the Gold Medal runs of the USA women's softball teams and a women's world cup victory. It is being misused and/or misapplied to push an agenda not at all in the spirit the law was created in. Somehow actually proving there has been discriminatory practices has been left out. Ironically Title IX will be what protects young men from a problem currently making its way around campuses across the country

+4 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

I agree, Title IX was good, but it needs to be amended.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

+7 HS
Jonnferrell's picture

I teach middle school and Title IX was used by parents to stop our school from having girls and boys eat separately and recess separately.  We would just divide the lunch period in half, have either the boys or girls go to the lunchroom while the other would go outside or to the gym if weather was not friendly.  This system worked well for many years for many reasons which do not really matter.  The point is, one kid complained to their doting parent who threatened with a lawsuit.  Ridiculous.

"I'm still hungry." --Brady Hoke

-1 HS
Jugdish's picture

I really feel for you and other teachers who have to put up with this BS. I can't say anymore because it may go into politics.

Remember to get your wolverine spayed or neutered. TBDBITL

+1 HS
M Man's picture

Title IX is a good law.

I'm not so certain that Title IX is a good law, but I take your point as valid for purposes of this discussion.  For forty years, we had the same basic Title IX (with a few notable accoutrements like the Clery Act, etc.), but we never had the run of really dubious collegiate administrative actions like what has occurred in the last 24 months.

As I have said repeatedly in these forums, the issue isn't so much Title IX itself (it is useful shorthand at best) but rather the administration of the law under the current Department of Education, since the Dear Colleague Letter of April, 2011 signed by then-Assistant Secretary of Education in the Office of Civil Rights, Russlynn Ali.

It is being misused and/or misapplied to push an agenda not at all in the spirit the law was created in.

Yes.  

Somehow actually proving there has been discriminatory practices has been left out.

I'd put it another way.  With all of the controversy surrounding years of tradition with TBDBITL, and with thousands of Band alumni, where are the plaintiffs?  Who are the claimants?  Has anyone been damaged or injured and also had their claims or concerns ignored?

Ironically Title IX will be what protects young men from a problem currently making its way around campuses across the country

There are at least two federal lawsuits now pending against universities who expelled or otherwise punished purported male offenders; cases in which the purported offenders are now alleging Title IX violations on the part of those universities.  Don't hold me to exact numbers, please; the numbers of these cases are growing so rapidly it's hard to keep count.

+11 HS
Jugdish's picture

Good point.

Remember to get your wolverine spayed or neutered. TBDBITL

Frimmel's picture

Those cases are well over thirty at this point. If you are familiar with a site called A Voice for Male Students they have an extensive list of such suits. I'm certainly with you on this,

For forty years, we had the same basic Title IX (with a few notable accoutrements like the Clery Act, etc.), but we never had the run of really dubious collegiate administrative actions like what has occurred in the last 24 months.

As I have said repeatedly in these forums, the issue isn't so much Title IX itself (it is useful shorthand at best) but rather the administration of the law under the current Department of Education, since the Dear Colleague Letter of April, 2011 signed by then-Assistant Secretary of Education in the Office of Civil Rights, Russlynn Ali.

hetuck's picture

You are obviously more familiar with the law than I am. Waters claims the law gives the accused a right to respond to the accusations, something he was denied. Is this true? 

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

M Man's picture

Jon Waters' employment case will almost certainly never be a Title IX case.  He is not "accused" of much of anything other than being non-forthcoming to the investigators and having to correct previous statements he made to them.  That is, by far, the most damning fact for Jon Waters.  And tough to overcome.

But what I feel certain the University is NOT going to want to do is to comply with all of the discovery involved in a Jon Waters civil case for wrongful termination, defamation, false light, breach of contract, etc.  Because I suspect that Waters and his attorneys would eat the Investigative Report, and all of the underlying documentation, for dinner.  And the avoidance of that publicity disaster is why OSU would prefer to buy peace with Waters.  I hope that they go to the mattresses in this case.  Just like I would like to see Brendan Gibbons sue Michigan.  That is, to expose all of the internal Title IX pressure points under the harsh light of discovery in litigation.  I hope all of that happens but I expect that it won't. 

+3 HS
pcon258's picture

Tough position for drake. He tried to send a message: with the sexual assault problems on college campuses these days (osu is one of the schools listed as an offendor), this was  something he felt was in the long-term interest of the school. 

now that he has acted, he can't renege. Especially not in his first few weeks of a new presidency. 

disagree with the initial decision, but it's hard to back out now without looking weak. It's a shame that this is coming down to a power play

+3 HS
zenshade's picture

It truly saddens me that our culture has reached a point where "leaders" buy into that nonsense that they must always appear to be infallible and changing your mind implies weakness. The truth is just the opposite.

President Drake is the one, and probably the only, person who could fix this apparent injustice.

All he would have to do is say something like "Upon examining further evidence, it appears some rather too hasty judgments were made. I take full responsibility and will be examining our processes to make sure we do our best to keep this from happening in the future."

He'd be a hero and immediately recognized as a true leader, one who doesn't sacrifice his people for political expediency.

+11 HS
cronimi's picture

He could do that, and some may see him as "a true leader", as you say --- but many would also see him as waffling/indecisive and unable to make a tough decision and stick to it, the exact opposite of a true leader. And I'm sure he's thinking, whether he likes it or not, if he changes his mind here that he will have lost the respect of the university. He's put himself in a bad situation, but I doubt he sees reinstating Waters as the way out of it.

+1 HS
WC Buckeye's picture

You're correct. However, a true leader would've made sure to take the time to vet the facts before weighing in with a decision, and it's unclear if that's what happened. Could be that the report (flawed or otherwise) was all he read and therefore thought he had all of the information he needed to act, but the cries of "foul" and "scapegoat" make that claim seem a little hollow.

My son went to UC-Irvine while Drake was there, and while he and I never spoke about Drake specifically, I did look into campus happenings and administrative decisions from time to time, and overall I still think OSU got a very good president. I have said this before and will believe it until he proves otherwise. Not sure I'd be ready to anoint him the vanguard of a new order just yet, though - he could still step in it, and as more facts come to light about this case, it looks like a railroading job.

The only thing that's new in the world is the history that we have forgotten.

DRAKE008's picture

As per the lantern this isn't the first time Drake has done something like this and he did go back and reverse his decision. http://thelantern.com/2014/08/jonathan-waters-firing-not-the-first-under...

No I am not related to him.

+7 HS
Haybucks's picture

Sorry ... Page Not Found

That page didn't stay up very long!

You've got to do your own growing, no matter how tall your grandfather was. - Irish proverb

 

CALPOPPY's picture

Maybe it was just a bad/incomplete link. It was in the list of stories on the "Page not found" page.

http://thelantern.com/2014/08/jonathan-waters-firing-not-the-first-under-president-michael-drake-to-draw-negative-feedback/

I'm a hurtin' buckaroo.

+1 HS
BUCKSOMIES's picture

If it is shown that Drake made the wrong decision in haste or in error then he must "renege".  He and the other decision makers who are supposed to be the adults have got to show the young people who make up the majority of the undergraduates that it is better to make an error in judgment and correct that error than it is to make an error in judgment and add to that error by refusing to do anything about it.  Just my opinion.  Go Bucks.  

southbuc's picture

This will be expensive for the university and waters will be a wealthy man.  

-2 HS
northwest_buckeye's picture

This whole situation has been a total clusterfuck, for lack of a better word. It smelled foul from the beginning and has only gotten exponentially worse.

Regardless of Drake's intentions or motives... This has been a magnificent swing and miss.

I've never said I 'hate' anyone because that would imply I had any emotion for them whatsoever.

+21 HS
Barnsey69's picture

Here, here 741, to quote one of my all-time favorite movies (avatar should give you a hint): 

"it's a huge shit-sandwhich, and we all have to take a bight"

I am no lawyer, nor am I overly familiar with this type of situation, however it would seem that this could definitely be litigated, and perhaps end well for Mr. Waters.

Thank the Maker that I was born in Ohio, cradle of coaches, US Presidents, confederate-stomping Generals, and home of The Ohio State University Football Buckeyes!

+2 HS
FROMTHE18's picture

I vote for Waters to be reinstated, but I do not think it will happen and don't disagree with people who feel it shouldn't. 

+5 HS
SafetyGuy's picture

How is this still news?

O-H-

-8 HS
Frimmel's picture

Because this crowd wants everything Buckeyes to be the best and it is hard not to think that without Waters the band will be a bit less "best" than it was last season.

+4 HS
11UrbzAndSpices's picture

Because Waters was probably a top 5 public figure for the university and was possibly wrongfully terminated. Imagine if the same thing happened to Urban or Thad.

Does anyone know if BucksFan changed his icon?

+13 HS
buckeye4life050233's picture

it's still news because the guy got railroaded.  the people in the report are coming out and plainly detailing what they said to the investigator and how most of what they said was left out of the report and it definitely helps Waters case to be reinstated or at the very least a very hefty severance package for getting his name destroyed over what seems like an overreach by the university and Mr. Drake

+11 HS
brband64's picture

This is still news because collectively several thousand current and former band members were smeared by a slipshod report that interviewed a mere handful of the aforementioned thousands of people...and grossly mischaracterized the words of least two of the people who WERE interviewed.  Simply put, this is still news because those people are not letting their reputations be ruined without a fight.  

They are not happy that writers of prominent online publications - who simply read the report and chose to believe all of it - label them as "perverts" and "sexual deviants" simply because they were members of the band; not happy that some friends and co-workers now have negative perceptions about them and the organization.

I am a former band member, and can tell you that my greatest disappointment - beyond the report's obvious collateral damage - is that that many of the same Buckeye fans who rightfully took a skeptical eye and a microscope to the various "investigative reports" that were written about the football team a few years ago immediately chose to take this report at face value.  Perhaps because it was an internal/university report, I don't know...but that doesn't mean it's accurate; the mere sample size alone should have raised eyebrows.  Like many of the reports involving the football team, there are nuggets of truth in the band report that need to be addressed - but the overall picture painted of the band and its members is simply not accurate. 

+17 HS
thatlillefty's picture

Well said. I hadn't thought about the likeness between this situation and what the football experienced a few years back.

+1 HS
M Man's picture

How is this still news?

Still news?  This is only the beginning!

The next stories, yet to come:

  • Waters files suit against the Board of Trustees of The Ohio State University.
  • The settlement of Waters v. Board of Trustees under undisclosed terms (anonymous sources indicate $__ million dollars); OR the initiation of discovery in Waters v. Board of Trustees (which is why there will be a settlement).
  • Congressional hearings on the new enforcement standards of Title IX and the Dear Colleague Letter, sometime in 2015. 
  • A story, sometime late in 2014, by the Columbus Dispatch, after its FOIAs concerning the Waters investigation are answered.
  • Another blockbuster story by James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal on one or more of the many pending countersuits by male students expelled under the new Title IX rubric.  It could be the Auburn case, or the Michigan case, or others.

I may have overlooked or neglected some other news hits.  Feel free to supplement my list.

+10 HS
Frimmel's picture

I'm sure there are a few more bands out there with a "culture" similar or perhaps worse to the one within TBDBITL. It seems unlikely one of those directors won't find himself in a similar situation. If not a band director there is surely some other hapless faculty member unaware of his privilege and micro-aggressions who might be discarded to prove the institution in question is taking the Dear Colleague letter to heart.

+1 HS
cpfanatik77's picture

Agreed. The thing that has made me scratch my head about this whole situation is that people act like this "culture" is something that is only prevalent at Ohio State. This type of sexualized culture goes on all the time in bands. I saw it firsthand in high school. High school. I heard stories from the percussion bus that make me cringe now as a parent. We had nicknames for each other. My brother marched with DCI about 10 years ago (HS and college age) and it was the same there, from what he's told me. As much as I hate this hyper-sexualized culture that exists in the world of marching bands today, that is the reality for a lot of them. So if we are going to point the finger at and question OSU, we need to take a look at the band system as a whole, because it goes on everywhere.

Frimmel's picture

We were hazed in my high school band. Pretty mildly when it comes down to it but when Waters said you couldn't turn this culture around on a dime it certainly didn't occur to me that he was spouting nonsense. I was in an All-Star band and the only thing that prevented hazing there was everyone was upperclassmen and from all sorts of different schools but everyone had stories. All of these kids probably think the culture is pretty "normal" as far as this stuff goes. They've been exposed to it in some form or the other probably since middle school. My own experience just contributes to the idea that Waters was an expedient scapegoat for many different reasons.

+1 HS
causeicouldntgo43's picture

Taranto alone is worth the price of my Wall Street Journal subscription.

+1 HS
OHCelt's picture

Additional lawsuits by several of the young women whose privacy rights were flagrantly violated by Glaros in writing his shoddy report?

+3 HS
Young_Turk's picture

I may have overlooked or neglected some other news hits.  Feel free to supplement my list.

  • Very likely that both Captain Dildo and Jewoobs get a role in the next installment of the Hangover franchise,…Hungover, Firm and Fabulous.
+1 HS
buckeyefan333's picture

Whatever happened to giving out the ol' suspension while they complete the investigation and then deciding what to do permanently once full discovery has been completed? That way nobody hastily makes a decision like this prematurely.  If the investigation finds he did stuff that warranted firing, then fire him and there won't be a huge backlash because all the facts will be present.  If he isn't fired, then lift the suspension and the whole mess goes away without all this negative press for everyone.

+24 HS
BTBuckeye's picture

Imagine that. Common sense.

+16 HS
Bugsyk's picture

Common Sense is anything but common.  It's so rare it should be declared a Super Power.

+1 HS
MrMeanMan's picture

While that would have been a more appropriate solution, unfortunately Title IX requires that the investigation and resulting action be taken within 60 days of the complaint. Here we see a law intending to prevent violations from being swept under the rug and forgotten ruining a good man's life.

+3 HS
M Man's picture

"60 days" is not part of the Text of Title IX as far as I know.  The "60 days" thing comes out of the Dear Colleague Letter.  (Page 12.)  And other very-recent dictates of the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights. 

+1 HS
MrMeanMan's picture

Well that's on me for believing anything the university has said. 

+3 HS
OHCelt's picture

Actually it does not. While 60 days is the recommended interval, there are plenty of cases which take longer for the due process to occur. This is just another OSU crock.

cronimi's picture

Yeah, but that ship sailed when Drake fired him. There's no going back, short of a court order (or settlement of a wrongful termination lawsuit).

+1 HS
longstb's picture

You know, I have seen this happen before in some companies. Nameless, faceless investigators go into a situation with the end goal in mind - truth be damned.  The RIGHT thing to do in this situation would be to do a true unbiased, thorough investigation.  

Not simply talking to nine people and hastily putting together a report to justify a predetermined outcome.  I do agree with the other posters that it will be unlikely for Drake to reverse his decision.  I am guess this goes to litigation or more likely a settlement for Mr. Waters.

BL

+4 HS
MrMeanMan's picture

http://compliance.osu.edu/about-us/our-team/chris-glaros.html

I present to you the nameless, faceless investigator: Chris Glaros. Band alumni letters have been going to his office as well. 

This one has a picture: http://www.glenn.osu.edu/faculty/lecturers/glaros.html

Mark's picture

Someone within the "one of nine former/current band members interviewed by OSU investigators" is tied to the right person (maybe a top official or high-end donor), or someone big enough within wanted him out.  So it has been done.  Most of you have already stated that in different ways.

It seems our overly PC society has claimed another victim(s).  Just like in pee wee sports when we stopped keeping scores and everyone gets a trophy (for participation).

It seems to me a probationary period or something like that would have been more justifiable.  Just like any other workplace.

+4 HS
Tater_Schroeder's picture

I suspect this will only heat up as students return back to campus for fall semester. 

How Firm Thy Friendship

+2 HS
BierStube's picture

"No matter where you go, there you are." B. Banzai

+22 HS
Oyster's picture

Wait until they spell out Script Waters at the first home game this year.  Get your popcorn ready folks, that will be one for the ages.

+9 HS
Poison nuts's picture

Just as perfect as when I saw it on the original tread Bierstube! +1

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

DefendYoungstown's picture

It's going to COST the university so much to bring Waters back, he's gonna get paid...

What we can't do in the air we'll do on the ground.

+1 HS
seafus26's picture

The band's theme moving formations at halftime are becoming national phenomenons. Will they continue without him?

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

+1 HS
avail31678's picture

Perhaps.  Waters said on WNCI this morning that the formations were a team effort and many were in place already for this upcoming year.  He said he doesn't mind if the band uses them this year whether he is director or not.

+2 HS
ibuck's picture

Since it was students who approached Waters with the idea of using tablets and animated formations, I suspect those formations will continue.

Our honor defend, we will fight to the end !

If you can't win your conference, just quietly accept your non-playoff bowl game.

+2 HS
Adambob's picture

I think firing Waters for the actions of some band members is the same as firing Gee for the "Rip his F'n head off" chant from the student section. Both were witnesses to actions they didn't condone and tried putting a stop to it. Gee sent an email before the Nebraska game and that chant still happens at every home game.

Maybe Waters didn't do enough to change the ways of the band, but will the next director be able to? 

+3 HS
andretolstoy's picture

A couple of weeks ago I warned everyone not to just accept these reports as law.

In this day and age, the higher ups will cut you loose (regardless if you're guilty or not) just to save their own image and to continue to be in the good graces of a political regime. So it makes TOTAL sense that Gene Smith supports Drake. Total, sense.

Smith did this same exact thing to Tressel a few years back.

+10 HS
Furious George 27's picture

Are you suggesting that Tressel did nothing wrong? It does not suprise me that Smith supports Drake since that is his boss, much like he supported Gee during his tenure.

Yeah, well…that’s just like, your opinion, man.

+2 HS
andretolstoy's picture

There is a difference between doing "something(s)" wrong or not getting results when we want them, how they want them etc. etc. and what happened to these two men.

Title IX needs to be abolished, and for the most part, so does the NCAA.

Furious George 27's picture

My comment was towards your shock of Smith supporting Drake and Gee... Not a great move to publicly disagree with your boss. Tress created his own mess, now I do believe Drake jumped the gun he has a history of it.

Yeah, well…that’s just like, your opinion, man.

HoopHal's picture

Nine band members out of 4000 were mentioned in this report. And now at least two have refuted what they were purported to have said. This was a horrible rush to judgement. As much as I love my school, Ohio Stater may be the worst Division One school in the country for crisis management

+7 HS
tommrkr's picture

I think it would take a lot to trump Penn State.

+6 HS
robobuck's picture

It's becoming more and more clear that they didn't let the band members vote

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.  1 Corinthians 9:24

+3 HS
buckeyehamilton's picture

I was in the OSUMB in the 80s and the lights were always on in the stadium for the ramp. The university has known about this for years. Drake is a fool and made a quick and stupid decision.

+9 HS
Fatpants's picture

BUT BUT BUT BUT WATERS ABUSED AND HARASSED THESE KIDS HE IS THE DEVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or, there's more to the story. Maybe the mob needs to put their pitchforks and torches down and think about it.

+3 HS
Citrus's picture

Move along nothing to see here. While you're moving, log off and take a stroll around the block. 

How dare any of you support this man, what is this PennState?? 

Talked to 9 people out of thousands. 2 of the 9 have come out and said that their reports were mischaracterized or inaccurate. Several of the "naughty events" listed in the report Watters had actually done away with. Sounds like it was handled properly. 

You have a big bow tie to fill, Dr. Drake, so far I am unimpressed. 
 

+22 HS
Fogt13's picture

I take back my previous comments, sounds more and more like a scapegoat....

Go Buckeyes! Go Bengals! Go Reds!
My true love will always be Rosie

+1 HS
O-H-I-Owe-U's picture

I appreciate Rebecca and all of the other current and alumni band members for working to set the record straight. If Drake doesn't respond to her letter, I'd suggest the band takes the form of Godzilla like they did in last year's halftime show and follow him around campus breathing fire. 

MrMeanMan's picture

I talked to Joobs on Saturday. As of then, even she had not received a response from Drake's office. Prior to that his office was sending out a impersonal, canned responses. Those stopped after the first few days. It is likely he won't say anything publicly about it until the Montgomery report comes out. 

+1 HS
Buckeye in Illini country's picture

I assume you know her.  I don't, but her dad, Professor Clark, is one of the best professors I ever had at Ohio State.

Columbus to Pasadena: 35 hours.  We're on a road trip through the desert looking for strippers and cocaine... and Rose Bowl wins!

+3 HS
MrMeanMan's picture

Dr. Joobs is the freaking man. Awesome dude.

+3 HS
bucksfan92's picture

As I said right from the beginning, OSU made a disastrous move in firing Waters.  Drake's days are numbered already, and the best thing he could do would be to immediately reinstate Waters with a public apology.  He probably should also step down as President since he clearly does not have the fortitude to handle running a University of this size, as he so horribly botched this whole thing.  In the grand scheme this wasn't even a minor issue, and he made it a mountain. How on Earth can he deal with real problems that will face OSU?

+5 HS
M Man's picture

With all due respect, I'd like to caution you about personalizing this story, and attacking OSU's administration.  There is an ironic case to be made, that Drake made the pragmatic call.  It may not have been just; it may have been hysterical; it may have been grossly unfair to Waters and destructive of the morale of TBDBITL.  And yet it may still have been pragmatic.  

Why do I spout such nonsense?  Because of the pressure brought to bear on the OSU administration by the Department of Education.  It might actually have been easier and less painful for Drake, to fire Waters and pay him a couple million and give him a golden parachute, than it would have been to fight with the Department of Education.  Compared to the money sent by Uncle Sam to The Ohio State University, the entire football budget is a rounding error.  It is pretty easy to see that making Jon Waters a sacrifice to federal dictates was a practical thing to do even if it wasn't the right thing to do.

+11 HS
Fatpants's picture

  It is pretty easy to see that making Jon Waters a sacrifice to federal dictates was a practical thing to do even if it wasn't the right thing to do.

Agreed. A world where what is right is always done bears little resemblance to world where what is financially prudent is always done. 

+1 HS
ExpressiveBuckeye's picture

Especially in large scale schools such as OSU where we all knkow the almighty dollar is most important.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

Buckeye1996's picture

With all due respect M Man, that argument is hogwash. Good leaders stand up and resist pressures if they believe in the cause. I think this was a knee jerk reaction by Drake.

+1 HS
Fatpants's picture

This is what Drake is doing. The cause is the furtherance of The Ohio State University in it's goals of research and education, not the employment of one Jon Waters.

-1 HS
Buckeye1996's picture

Keep firing people with flimsy evidence and see what happens to those goals. The employment of people contributes to the U's goals whether it is Waters or someone else. You can't separate the two.

As an alumnus, I didn't have any strong reaction to this incident at first, but the more I see the more I believe Waters was a lamb sacrificed for some reason other than protecting research and education.

Something is rotten in the shoe.

+1 HS
M Man's picture

With all due respect M Man, that argument is hogwash. Good leaders stand up and resist pressures if they believe in the cause.

Hence my self-effacing, "Why am I spouting such nonsense?"  You might be right!  Someday we might have enough information to say that Drake should have resisted federal pressure.  But for now, right or wrong, that is the story.  What was the federal pressure?  How was it applied?

+2 HS
Buckeye1996's picture

Yeah. You did lead off with that sentence. You must be an attorney since you covered your arse with some crafty wordsmithing ..  :-P

You do bring up some good points!

ShoeHolder's picture

 Compared to the money sent by Uncle Sam to The Ohio State University, the entire football budget is a rounding error.

This may be the most accurate, well said summation of this event I've read yet. Good on you, sir. 

M Man - your take on most posts I've followed here may not necessarily be the most popular but they are almost always logical and they hit the nail on the head. 

"Hippies. They're everywhere. They wanna save the Earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad."

+2 HS
OHCelt's picture

To a certain extent that's true, but it is the donated money that allows the University latitude to do things on the margins, while most, if not all, of the federal dollars are earmarked for set purposes. So this is the money that OSU can use to do the eye catching projects that get attention. Losing this money really will impact the University.

GoBucksOrDie's picture

There are few folks that post that I actively look for their opinion on a specific issue. M Man is one of them.SShoe Holder is correct....I do not like every opinion M Man has, but they are usually fair and well-thought out

Interesting signature line

Big Papa's picture

Bring back Gordon Gee. 

"To be the man you've gotta beat the man and just when you think you have all the answers, I change the question." The Nature Boy, Ric Flair

+6 HS
darbnurb's picture

"I just hope Waters doesn't fire Drake." - Gordon Gee  

+1 HS
BuckFly's picture

Maybe the Alumni Band should have Jon Waters as the Script Ohio i-dotter at the Reunion Game on September 13....

+4 HS
Fatpants's picture

How awesome would it be if the band took it on themselves to come up with their own halftime show where all they did was form various private parts to the music of 2-Live Crew?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

+2 HS
avail31678's picture

I'm not a lawyer...but do the students who were interviewed who strongly believe their statements were misused/misrepresented have a case to sue OSU as well?  Not saying that would be good or bad, but Ms. Demattia obviously felt rather strongly about this to write that letter to Drake.

What sucks is I know one of the investigators named in the report and I don't know how to act around them now...this was a sucky investigation AT BEST, and likely even an investigation with an agenda.

I also know the Waters family well and I was erring to the side of caution and not rushing to judgement for EITHER side, but the more I hear the more I feel he got hosed bad.

+2 HS
d5k's picture

People like Joobs likely have a case based on being outed in the report (nickname known by everyone in the band and many others is worse than an address and social security #) and emotional distress caused by that violation of her right to privacy.

+3 HS
elitesmithie's picture

This is a shit show. As a whole, the universities credibility is in shambles. You don't lie about witnesses. They allegedly had "overwhelming" evidence and they have to resort to lying?? What is this Shark Week where they lie to scientists to get in mocumentories? 

To those who say they can't bring Waters back; if you screw up, you don't just say "oh well , our bad", you fix the situation. 

Also, we are supposed to believe hundred of students march through the Shoe with lights on at midnight for years and no cop, facility member, or administrator notices? They are either lying or fucking incompetent. 

+4 HS
Buckeye1996's picture

All I know is that this is going to be a mess, and Michael Drake is being put front and center. Gene would be wise to back off a bit here. The firestorm appears to be just beginning.

+3 HS
Jack Fu's picture

When I read the report I thought it sounded a lot like the people in charge decided what they wanted to do and then reverse-engineered the reasons. That's looking more and more like the case. This was either a powerful complainant parent who had some major suction with OSU higher-ups, a new President with an overly-zealous PC agenda, or some major ass-covering by the university when threatened with something Title IX-related. Possibly a mixture of all three.

+8 HS
ponder10's picture

In my opinion, this was a purely legal move. What happened with the band "could" be perceived as sexual harassment and if Ohio State did an investigation where they learned about the perceived sexual harassment and the school did nothing then they would have even more legal liability than they currently have.

The easy answer, as it was with Jim Tressel, is to just dump the head guy, play ignorant, and congratulate yourself for righting a wrong.

It's sad, but I think that's what they've done here... It's much better to destroy the reputation of Waters than the reputation of the university as a whole.

“In the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught.” ~ Baba Dioum

+5 HS
ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

At first I hated that he was fired but understood why.  Now I just hate it.  This firing reeks of total bullshit from where I'm standing.  Not that there weren't things that could be addressed or they could've told Waters to do a better job of, but to fire the guy was pure overreaction to save asses.

Class of 2010.

+4 HS
manofmanynames's picture

The next questions is, how will the 2nd investigation by Montgomery play out??  Is Ohio State trying to find more evidence to support the firing?  Will it be a more thorough approach with more witnesses and investigating the administration to see what they knew and how long they knew it?  Will the current/alumni band members even participate because of how the first investigation went and was reported?

I feel that this is a long way from complete, but unfortunately for Mr. Waters he will probably never be the director of TBDBITL again.

You Win With People

OHCelt's picture

Well look at the Montgomery Committee page on the OSU web site. It has a button to solicit comments, that is labelled "Complaints/Reports". Does that sound to you as if they are looking for positive feedback?

+2 HS
LoufromOSU's picture

Nothing good is going to come out of Montgomery being involved in any fashion.

"The key to a winning season is focusing on one opponent at a time. Winning one week at a time. Never look back and never look ahead." - Chuck Noll
 

Woody16111's picture

President Drake is off to a fast start to becoming the next Karen Holbrook. Someone should read "Carmen Ohio" to Mr. Drake ... specifically the line "How firm thy friendship ... O ... HI...O " 

+5 HS
TUNBUCK89's picture

Coudn't they just blame Fickell for this, re-instate Waters, and be done with it ?!!!

+5 HS
script-ohio's picture

Listen to the alumni on this one, guys.  This isn't a fence case, this is a gross injustice and insult to both TBDBITL and Jon Waters.

+5 HS
buckeyehamilton's picture

Drake has hired 2 law firms and a consulting firm that handle title 9 issues etc. Drake is covering his tracks. These firms will report exactly what they are being paid to report and that will be title 9 issues etc. Drake can then say we found other examples to prove the firing was necessary. As title 9 is subjective in its application to the alleged victims then the firm's can run with that. Drake needs to fly south for the winter and take his title 9 crap with him. Hey Drake after you got that report why didn.t you call Waters in your office tell him how it was going to be. No tolerance for these activities. Have the members sign a form acknowledging the same
And have counselors provide programs to work on the culture problems. Or you could have just talked to the band himself.

Anyone member that canot live with this doesn't try out then. Period. End of story.
There is a little plaque on the wall as you go down the ramp and that says "WB Pass It Back"
Drake has none.

+5 HS
Art Harrell's picture

Someone is now covering there ass, they know---"oops I made a mistake"-- we need the Greatest  tOSU President we ever had Dr. Gordon Gee back in charge. ( Dr.Gordon Gee, bleeds Scarlet and Grey,)

+2 HS
bleedscarlet's picture

I've read that OSU's music dept. wanted control over the marching band, the more I read the more I'm convinced this is going to end up being one big black eye for OSU's administration.

I'm too drunk to taste this chicken

+6 HS
Li Xiao Buckeye's picture

Fire Fickell, Tressel, Waters, Smith, GeeDrake, Wait... I'm confused.  Just tell me who to fire next.  9Route!

I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. - Bruce Lee

+7 HS
NW Buckeye's picture

So Drake wants to take a hard line stance on all of this.  The problem with that is that many more heads should roll if indeed Waters was not allowed a reasonable process to correct the problems that were identified in the report.  Heck, from what is posted above, we have learned that "Joobs" Dad is a professor at the university.  He obviously knew about the innuendos within the band because it was reported that her parents would show up at games with t-shirts that stated "Joobs Parents"!   If the Dad is indeed a prof at the university, shouldn't he be fired as well for not taking action and reporting the band's shenanigans to the administration?  I mean, if this is going to be turned into a Title IX issue, I'm sure he bears some responsibility for allowing this 'hazing' to continue in the band. 

And, despite some of the assurances from one of the posters above, I can not imagine in any scenario that individuals within the athletic office or the administration did not know of the midnight ramp activities.  We do know for certain from several posters here that the field lights were turned on for these events in the past.  Whenever field lights are turned on, someone in the administration knows about it (it is not cheap to turn those suckers on).  And, if they knew about the lights turning on, they had to know what was going on in the stadium, or at least they should have had the presence of mind to show up at the event and watch the activities.  You can not hide that.  So, whose heads are going to roll now? 

Drake has a daunting task in front of him.  Either cut out the entire cancer, or work with it to find a cure.  And, the only way to avoid vicious compliance at this point may be to bring back Waters to champion the change that needs to be accomplished. 
 

+8 HS
OHCelt's picture

We'll maybe Joobs' dad knew a lot more about the culture of the Band, as a Band parent, than Mr Glaros learned in the few weeks he took to write this report. As a result, perhaps he did not see evidence of a "sexualised culture" and thinks the Glaros report is as much of a crooked crock as the rest of us do. 

+1 HS
NW Buckeye's picture

Yeah, I agree with you on that.  It's just that Drake's published announcement was somewhere along the lines that Waters knew about these things and did nothing to stop them (even though it has been shown that he was making changes).  It seems like there were others in authority who knew of some of the things in the report, and they did not step up to the plate as they should have.  Consistency would kind of imply that those other 'in the know' people should receive similar treatment as Waters. 

What I am really getting at here is that this whole thing reeks of a 'witch hunt'.  I was embroiled in one at the HS where I was an assistant coach.  The administration received one complaint from a parent and then came after the HC as he was kind of an old school coach.  His coaching style had not changed since they hired him in the '70's.  Then all of a sudden, the administration came after him looking to displace him from his post.  They interviewed all the assistant coaches.  We all knew it was a witch hunt, and the group selected me to be their spokesman.  I penned an elegant letter to the administration that actually called them out on their mission.  It gracefully pointed out that they had known of the HC's coaching style for many years, but had not taken any initiative to do anything about it.  Then all of a sudden they were after his job.  We let them know that if that is how they wanted to act, then we would go forward with all the details and show how bumbling their management of the HC was in today's world.  In effect, I saved his job (he was put on a one year probationary period, which afforded him time to change his ways).  He finished out his career as HC and is still involved to this day as an adviser to the new HC.  

So the point is that Drake certainly could have handled this better.  There are ways to confront someone you want to work with and ways to confront someone you want to fire.  It seems quite obvious that Drake had firing on his mind with this whole situation.  It was indeed, a witch hunt. 

+3 HS
OHCelt's picture

Absolutely agree. There's nothing like the Protestant fervor of one of these HR zealots when they get this kind of bee in the bonnet. Absolutely no one is safe, and woe betide anyone who points out that the emperor has no clothes.

+3 HS
buckeyehamilton's picture

As a former music major and member of the OSUMB I don.t think this is a school of music issue. The OSUMB is untouchable by the school of music in my opinion. Anyway, as 20 to 25% of OSUMB members are music majors there wasn't any conflict that I heard or sensed as there is nothing better to put on your application for a music teaching job application than you were a member. What I am most concerned with title 9 is that the current male to female ratio is 4 males to 1 female give or take. I fear that Betty Montgomery or others will try to equalize the ratio. As the OSUMB has no clarinets, flutes, or saxophones which are a majority made up of females the ratio is not in comparison to other college marching bands as the OSUMB is all brass and percussion which tend to have more males to females. The members of the OSUMB are based on merit and merit only without regard to genetics.
The female members of the band got there just like the men by working your assess off.

+5 HS
AndyVance's picture

As the OSUMB has no clarinets, flutes, or saxophones which are a majority made up of females the ratio is not in comparison to other college marching bands as the OSUMB is all brass and percussion which tend to have more males to females.

Mother of God, I hadn't even thought about that implication... If they trash the all-brass tradition of the band, TBDBITL is doomed. DOOMED.

+3 HS
Frimmel's picture

Yes, but the number of female brass players is purportedly consistent with the brass sections of other bands. One letter from a band member I saw pointed out that the percentage of female brass players in TBDBITL was greater than the percentage of female brass players in the band of TSUN. There is no evidence of discrimination against female brass players with regards to making the band or attaining leadership positions in it. Hopefully we won't see another misuse of Title IX and the destruction of one of the greatest things in college football as another victim of gynocentrism.

If the misguided 50/50 outcome metric gets applied to TBDBITL... ***shudder***

+1 HS
Shangheyed's picture

We're getting the band back together man!

+2 HS
Buckeyebrowny919's picture

To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift - Steve Prefontaine

+1 HS
Buckeyebrowny919's picture

Damn mobile... only post links lol

To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift - Steve Prefontaine

+1 HS
Shangheyed's picture

Well done 919!  Thanks for that.

whiskeyjuice's picture

"Championships are not won on Saturdays in November. Championships are won on Tuesdays in August." -- Kerry Combs

+7 HS
Shangheyed's picture

LOVE IT!  Its a great sound track as a well as an outstanding movie... I like both kinds of Music... Country AND Western...

CLASSIC!

TBDBITLalum9700's picture

As a four year member of TBDBITL from 1997-2000 I can say that I was extremely disappointed with the reaction of those here at 11W in regards to the firing of Jon Waters.  The #Glarosreport was taken as gospel, but is nothing but mistruths, misrepresentations, and flat out lies.  Making it even worse is the fact that OSU considers itself one of the top research universities in the country.  To draw conclusions based on such a small sample size and then change (or not even include) what was found during the "investigation" is irresponsible and reeks of a witch hunt.

In regards to Midnight Ramp:  I can assure you that the score board was on, stadium lighting was on, and there was a police presence both on the field and at the top of the ramp in the Rotunda.

I am happy to see 11W continuing to follow this story.  For those who support the band, THANK YOU!!  #westandwithjonwaters #ourhonordefend

+2 HS
DRAKE008's picture

It now appears that the majority of the band members listed in the report have spoken out against it. http://abc6onyourside.com/images/PresidentDrakeLetter.pdf

+3 HS
Poison nuts's picture

WOW! At what point do people start saying, "yeah - we really screwed the pooch on this one". 

"Do not pass me, just slow down - I can move right through you" Superchunk - Precision Auto.

+1 HS
M Man's picture

...and attention builds, per the band members' letter, on Chris Glaros.

Chris Glaros' bio page at the John Glenn School of Public Affairs.

And his personal page at the Office of Compliance and University Integrity.

Pre-Cordray, pre-OSU Chris Glaros as President of Blue 88, from way back in 2007.  Go "Blue," Chris!?!

Didn't realize it until today; a few years ago, Chris Glaros was a law clerk for U.S. District Judge Algenon Marbley, who also happens to sit on the OSU Board of Trustees.

+1 HS
osu78's picture

Having read the report, I don't think Drake was wrong in firing Waters.  here is why:

1) Waters apparently wasn't forthcoming and denied actions until faced with evidence to the contrary.

2) He didn't attend required training sessions.

3) Another OSU employee complained, apparently repeatedly, about behavior and finally resigned in frustration over inaction.

Those alone, independent of the comments by members, is enough, IMHO, to justify firing him. To me, they indicate a failure of leadership. As someone who has done investigations, item 1 is a big red flag that calls into question everything said. Item 2 could be construed as insubordination. Item 3 indicates he didn't understand or refused to understand, the issues he faced.

Could he have been retained? Sure, but he wasn't. 

Whatever happened to leaders taking responsibility? Drake did, even if we disagree with his actions. IMHO, Water's actions illustrated in the report indicate a failure of leadership on his part and questions his ability to make the changes needed.

Frankly, if the band wasn't good people wouldn't be calling for his reinstatement but would have been calling for his head. 

+3 HS
elitesmithie's picture

The problem with your points is that now we see that the report was filled with lies and half truths. How we are supposed to trust anything stated in it if there are other parts that are mistakes?

osu78's picture

Fair enough. Which of the points I made were lies  or half truths in the report? I am open to changing my POV bit nothing I have heard dispute that Waters skipped training, was not forthcoming until called on his statements, and another OSU employee repeatedly complained to him about the band's actions>

OHCelt's picture

1) Given the succession of mis-statements and uncorroborated claims the university has made, and put in its report, are you really prepared to swallow this one?

2) He instituted extensive leadership training for the Band, both on campus, and at professional off site locations, such as Aileron. This trumps anything OSU's HR ever provides.

3) This individual has stated the she was "cornered" by the investigator, and her comments mis-interpreted and twisted out of context.

So much ado about nothing, other than potential lawsuits by Waters against OSU. And how does he get positive performance evaluations a month before he is fired for failing to do the very things his review complemented him on?

osu78's picture

1) Those are independent of the report.

2) Irrelevant to his failure to attend classes as directed.

3) I googled Ms Bork but didn't find any reports where she claimed to have been cornered and her comments taken out of context.

I am not surprised band members came out defending hims and what went on; although most seem to focus on why what happened wasn't bad rather than saying those sorts of things didn't happen. My experience in such situations indicates people who disagree with their goal peers often stay quiet rather than being ostracized. I'm not saying many of those who speak out don't honestly feel that way simply that those with dissenting opinions often are afraid to speak out because of what may happen. I've also been in situations where people will say  one thing in private but change their tune in public in the face of external pressures to conform.

As for reviews, it won't be the first time someone get s a good review and then something comes to light that gets him or her fired. Was he caught in a perfect storm of Title IX enforcement and OSU being in the cross hairs? Maybe, but it doesn't change what happened.

elitesmithie's picture

I don't mean anything you said was false per se; just that based on the rest of the report we don't know for sure anymore. Which was my point. As in, if what you said is actually correct, then yes you are right. But now, we don't know for sure because they opened the door of doubt with other fabrications in the report.