Across the Field: Miami (FL)

By Elika on September 14, 2011 at 4:00p
Let's just hope they're a little less peppy on Saturday.See? They're not all so bad.

Well, it seems as if Nevin Shapiro may have spoiled more than just the players in Coral Gables. Apparently you can't even get a Miami beat writer or blogger to respond to you for anything less than a hooker on a yacht party these days. I would've imagined their retinas would've adequately healed after the Maryland uniform debacle and they're finally back to reading emails, so perhaps they've imposed trade sanctions on Ohio State until we give Willis McGahee his ring back. (Note to Willis: I'm sure you and LeBron can find rings on eBay if it's truly that important to you. They might sell tissues as well.)

Either way, I'm incredibly grateful to the world of radio and television this week as Jon Linder of 560 WQAM in South Florida and Adam Kuperstein of NBC Miami and 560 WQAM have graciously offered to cross enemy lines and be my knights in shining armor. So, with that, enough of me... let's get to the experts.

Miami suffered a tough loss to Maryland in week 1. How much of a distracting role do you think the suspensions and Nevin Shapiro chatter (or Maryland uniforms for that matter) played in that loss?

Jon Linder: The allegation talk was a minor distraction but inevitably the Hurricanes lost the first game because they couldn't stop Maryland's offense. Regular starters Jacory Harris, Travis Benjamin, Marcus Forston, Adewale Ojomo, Sean Spence and Ray Ray Armstrong were all suspended from playing in that game (due to the Nevin Shapiro stuff) so they certainly missed those guys but Miami still has enough talent to beat Maryland and simply couldn't get it done.

Adam Kuperstein: I think Maryland's ugly uniforms were more of a distraction than Nevin Shapiro-gate. The NCAA investigation hurt the Hurricanes because 8 players were suspended, including their starting QB and 5 defensive starters, but that's no excuse for losing that game. Miami made some of the same mistakes that plagued the team a year ago, when they were not dealing with a scandal.

What are some of the major strengths and weaknesses of the Canes you noticed in week 1?

Jon Linder: Miami's greatest strengths are their offensive line and their runningbacks. Their o-line mixes veterans like Tyler Horn and Harland Gunn with versatile second year players like Brandon Linder. Hurricane runningbacks Lamar Miller and Mike James are both dynamic runningbacks that inevitably the Miami offense will rely on moreso than even the starting quarterbacks.

Miami's greatest weakness is their cornerbacks. Last year's starting tandem of Brandon Harris and DeMarcus Van Dyke are gone to the NFL and the guys they have in place now are good, but not great. Maryland quarterback Danny O'Brien was able to expose them in game one but they should get better with each game.

Adam Kuperstein: Let's start with the weaknesses: tackling, turnovers, penalties. Miami lacked discipline in game 1 under Al Golden. You can chalk some of that up to inexperienced players being on the field (who probably wouldn't have if not for the suspensions). However, Golden needs to prove that he's cleaned up those Randy Shannon-era mistakes.

Strengths: Lamar Miller is a beast of a running back. If the offensive line continues to improve, he'll have sick numbers this year. The Canes are also so deep at WR, and we were encouraged by the emergence of Allen Hurns. Also, sophomore QB Stephen Morris showed great potential before throwing the game-clinching INT. If Jacory Harris struggles against Ohio State, he'll be ready to take over.

Miami played their first game without the help of eight suspended players, including quarterback Jacory Harris, linebacker Sean Spence and defensive linemen Marcus Forston and Adewale Ojomo. How  much of an edge do you think these guys provide Miami and how excited should Canes fans be to see these guys back this week?

Jon Linder: Having the suspended players back is absolutely going to give the Hurricane players an emotional jolt especially when we're talking about the return of Jacory Harris, Sean Spence and Marcus Forston. These three guys who all came from the same high school, showed up at Miami to change the fortunes of the program and this is their last year to do something meaningful.  The team missed them in so many ways in game one and is very excited to have them back for Ohio State.

Adam Kuperstein: VERY excited. Especially for those guys on defense. Sean Spence may be Miami's best all around player. The defense looked lost without him. Ojomo should help a pass rush that was non-existent against Maryland and Harris is a better leader at this point than Morris.

Jacory Harris was named the starting QB for the Canes this Saturday which, frankly, has many Buckeye fans pleasantly surprised. Despite a critical last minute mistake by Stephen Morris in his start, he looked pretty decent in the opener (as well as his comeback win over Maryland last season). What are your thoughts on the two quarterbacks? Do you think Jacory gives you the best shot at the win? Might we see anything out of Morris on Saturday?

Jon Linder: I've said since the beginning of fall camp that Jacory gives Miami the best chance to win.  The most cerebral position on the field is quarterback and Harris has a lot more knowledge and experience when it comes to leading this team.  Stephen's inexperience was evident a few times in the loss at Maryland, with the most obvious time when the team suffered back to back delay of game penalties. Morris will only see the field if Jacory either gets hurt or struggles badly.

Adam Kuperstein: It looks like Canes fans and Buckeyes fans have something in common after all! Yeah, a lot of Miami fans are not convinced Jacory can win you big games. I don't completely agree. I think Morris has a better arm, but Harris is a Senior now and should make better decisions out there with the game on the line. The good news is, if Harris doesn't do that---and falls back into his tendencies from a year ago, Golden will have Morris ready.

Larry Coker and Randy Shannon combined to beat OSU in... nothing by the Seantrel Henderson Cup. Let's see how Al Golden does.Can Al Golden turn things around for the Miami Hurricanes?

Randy Shannon mentioned last year that playing in Columbus wouldn't provide a significant advantage for the Buckeyes, though it seemed the Canes left their talents in South Beach that weekend. Buckeyes typically travel well and Miami is an attractive destination, how much of an advantage, if any, do you think home field will provide for the Canes this time around?

Jon Linder: The Hurricanes will come out flying high because of where they're playing and fans will be right there with them.  Visting fans only become a factor when their team is winning so, in my opinion, the homefield advantage aspect is directly connected to the successes and failures on the field.

Adam Kuperstein: Please erase anything Randy Shannon ever said from your memory. He never made much sense when he opened his mouth and this is a great example. Of course the horseshoe was a huge advantage for OSU. And unfortunately, as someone who's covered a bunch of games at both stadiums, I can tell you that there is very little home field advantage at Sun Life Stadium. The allure of this matchup will draw a nice sized crowd, and it will get loud at night, but it's nothing compared to Columbus. Now if the Buckeyes sneak down to South Beach for some extra-curriculars... THAT is an advantage.

What players that haven't made it there already do you think are destined to have a breakout year and become household names on the national level by the end of the year?

Jon Linder: Hurricanes runningback Lamar Miller is one of the best in the country and unlike his last two seasons where Miami used three runningbacks, Lamar is going to get enough carries to really get himself in the Heisman discussion. He won't win it because Miami isn't a great team yet and they're facing allegations, but strictly from a numbers standpoint, he's the man.

Miami inside linebacker Jimmy Gaines has been the talk since fall camp opened. The coaches love him and even today Al Golden said he was "the model for what we're trying to do defensively." The Hurricanes need a reliable guy to patrol the middle of the field and even though he's green with experience, he's already money in the eyes of his coaches and teammates.

Adam Kuperstein: Not sure about household names, but I love freshman DL Anthony Chickillo and WR Tommy Streeter. Both will have a great chance to shine this year.

Ohio State came out flat against Toledo in Week 2, with a frustrating performance in multiple aspects of the game. What are your thoughts on the match-up between these two teams this weekend, and can you give us a score prediction?

Jon Linder: I watched the Ohio State-Toledo game and I felt like the Buckeye coaches deliberately tried to win with a vanilla game plan.  Why would they fully expose themselves a week before the Miami game?  Ohio State is a much better team than they showed against Toledo and I'm sure we're going to see their full arsenal on Saturday night. On a sour note, Miami badly exposed the Buckeyes special teams in last year's matchup and you can't hide the tape. Ohio State's special teams play against Toledo was very poor in all aspects.

I think the Hurricanes win this game because they have nearly all of the intangibles in their corner. Home opener, suspended players back, lost to Ohio State last year, brand new head coach who the fans really believe in and most importantly Miami has enough talented players to take care of their first home game.  I see the Hurricanes winning the field position battle, putting a lot of pressure on Bauserman and riding the backfield of Miller/James to a 31-21 victory.

Adam Kuperstein: I'm not a fan of predicting scores, but I think it'll be close. These two teams are similar in talent and I see the game being decided by less than a touchdown.

What's your best September guess for the Hurricanes' 2011 season and where they go bowling?

Jon Linder: Its hard to say because they still have three suspended players who will rejoin them within the next three to five weeks but I see the Hurricanes winning either 8 or 9 games. The season inevitably comes down to this... the winner of the Miami-Virginia Tech will play for the ACC title. Either way, they will go bowling somewhere.

Adam Kuperstein: I know where they won't go bowling... Lucky Strike on South Beach. Too soon? Ok, now that Nevin Shapiro is out of the picture,  I think Miami will win 8 games and end up in a better bowl than last year, but I don't think this team is good enough for the ACC Championship just yet.

Almost a decade later, I still hear about Terry Porter and his inability to reach for a flag quickly enough to satisfy Miami fans... but maybe Buckeye garb just invites it. Are Canes fans really still bitter about that?

Jon Linder: Oh yeah. Hurricanes fans still haven't let that one go. That late flag is probably the most bitter pill that Hurricane Nation has ever had to swallow.

Adam Kuperstein: What do you think???

(Elika's note: Admittedly, it's taking all my will power to not insert a smiley emoticon right now.)

Normally it's about this time that I ask our guests to provide me with their favorite football memory. This time, I thought I might supply you with a few of my favorite Miami memories instead:

Again, I'd like to give a big thanks to Jon and Adam for being my guests this week and sharing their expertise with us. To see more from them, please check out the links below:

Jon Linder:
Facebook: The Jon Linder Show
Twitter: @LinderWQAM

Jon hosts both the halftime and postgame shows on the Miami Hurricanes Radio Network and will be tweeting from the game on Saturday. Be sure to check it out!

Adam Kuperstein:
NBC Miami
Facebook: Adam Kuperstein
Twitter: @AKuperstein

Adam will also be live tweeting from the game this Saturday, and hosting a live postgame report on the NBC Miami 11pm news.


Comments Show All Comments

AltaBuck's picture

So is Willis going to turn in his NC ring to Nebraska since the shapiro scandal goes back to 2001?

I am so glad to have boohoo McGahee here in Denver. Hopefully, he will trip over his dog ala Brian Griese so we can get his ass out of here.

Lamar Miller is the real deal.  Both Simon and Big Hank need to have great games so the LBs can contain Miller.



I am Groot - Groot

COB's picture

Is Linder refering only to punts/fgs?  He said OSU's ST was "very poor in all aspects" despite taking a punt to the house, holding Toledo to 21 per punt return and 18 per KO return (both less than OSU's averages).  Yes, the punt block was atrocious but that wasn't the same issue we had with Miami last year. 

Yes, ST will need to play at a very high level and after last year's debacle, I will be holding my breath on every play but hard to say that OSU ST looked terrible "in all aspects".  FGs and punt team blocking/ coverage need to be stepped up (considerably) but KO coverage seemed to level off last year and seems to be maintaining this year (albeit with a small sample size).  

AltaBuck's picture

With Hall back for punts and kickoffs along with Berry (KR) and Fields (PR), I would not be surprised if one of them takes a return to the house.

I am Groot - Groot

yrro's picture

Wow, you could get the local "real" news personalities to respond, but no bloggers? Crazy world we live in. Thanks to the Miami guys for responding, and for taking some good natured ribbing.

Elika's picture

Right?! Both were great guys, really appreciate their participation. For any of you on Twitter, I recommend you follow as they'll be live tweeting from the game.

How firm thy friendship... OH-I-O!

RBuck's picture

Shapiro is out the the picture? I think not.

Long live the southend.

SouthBayBuckeye's picture


Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

yup, hoors

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

Bucks's picture

I've been on some Miami boards looking at comments and the majority I've seen think Miami is going to lose. Espin (so called) Insider gives every position to Miami.

Enjoyed these guys & had to laugh at the concluding portion. I know that in Cane land, OSU is referred to as simply "*".

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

this Saturday I will enjoy a fine crafted ale whose main ingrediants are Ken Dorsey's tears and pieces of Kellen Winslow Jr's motorcycle.

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

Run_Fido_Run's picture

That sounds like a lite beer, not a stout, but I'm sure it will have a big head. Also, beware the hangover.

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

by the way that you spell "lite" i'm guessing you're a miller guy

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

Tommy's picture

Aren't we all?  Did you not see Bauserman last week??

Is it Saturday Yet's picture

and itty bitty bits of McGahee's knee cap?

BoFuquel's picture

Jan. 3, 2003 . They were BUCKEYED, their entire program has never been the same. Miami prepare to be BUCKEYED!

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

sharkvsghost's picture

those people should probably move down a few rows. just sayin'...

swing hard in case you hit it.

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

it's like going to a dodger game.....

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

jfunk's picture

One of my best friends was in TBDBITL and was out in Tempe for the NCG/Fiesta Bowl. He was telling me how the local news was trying to do a fluff piece on all the fans coming out for the game. The reporters were so desperate to find some Miami fans to film that they actually went on the air and said something to the effect of if there are any Miami fans around tail-gating please call the station so we can come and film you.

Scotch: It may be too early to drink it, yes; but people it is never to early to think about it.

AngelHeartsBuckeyes's picture

Anyone know about Nathan William's knee being scoped and Philly Brown also being hurt?  Hearing they are out at Miami.

Any info out there to support this??????

Buckeye born and bred. Buckeye til I'm dead.

RedQueenRace's picture


The four-letter network is reporting it also.

Edit:  First link is just a pickup of Rittenberg so not a second source.

Bucksfan's picture

Sheesh, he was definitely missed last week.  Sort of need him this week.

741's picture

I wonder what this douchebag (Duane "The Rock" Johnson) is predicting this year?

flipbuckeye's picture

Nice gets on landing "real" personalities for the interview.  Realistic and unbiased bros are realistic and unbiased.

BucksfanXC's picture

I don't know how I feel about the sexy pictures. This site doesn't need to turn into the Forde Yard Dash or the Bleacher Report, pandering to males with sex appeal to get readers and page views. I was extremely happy to see 11W hire some female writers who have shown so far that quality writing on sports doesn't have to be written by men. I'm dissappointed to see Elika and Sarah objectified by commenters on here, and I'm not sure posting sexy pictures helps. On the other hand, since Elika herself is the one posting them, and she doesn't seem to mind the attention, that is her choice. I guess, everytime I see a cheerleader photo or a yoga pants link, I think to myself, that's not what I come here for, and I hate to see it de-volve further to the point that I have to stop coming here. 11W is making great progress, but I hope it doesn't start to move in that direction. Ok, end of rant.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

The_Lurker's picture

I think Elika was just trying to show us the astonishing fact that Miami has flying cheerleaders.

Hoody Wayes's picture

In the spirit of maintaining focus on athletics - I urge 11W staff to prohibit/enforce:

1.) Sexually-suggestive material/language/innuendo

2.) Profanity

3.) Political/religious references


Nappy's picture

In the spirit of entertainment, I ask 11W to

1) continue posting cheerleader/yoga pants pics. a) they're awesome and b) if people dont like them, they dont have to click them.

2) censorship is fucking stupid

3) agreed

I never saw a football player make a tackle with a smile on his face

Matt's picture

For a long time it's been 11W policy, handed down from on high, not to use profanity on the site.  If you don't like that, then you can use a catchy swear word acronym like GTFO, or you could also GTFO.

Luke's picture

Not trying to legislate from the comments, but my understanding is attacking profanity was uncooth but frustrated profanity and just general use is acceptable. Certainly as a writer I was cogniscent that there were readers that didn't fit into the same ideological/moral mold I did and tried to be respectful as such, but a well utilized profanity can go a long way. I would say they're definitely the exception as opposed to the rule though.

Nappy's picture

I understand this and generally agree, but if someone on the internet is concerned about coming across a swear word or two, maybe they should get their news from a medium controlled by the FCC.

I never saw a football player make a tackle with a smile on his face

Hoody Wayes's picture

"...but frustrated profanity and just general use is acceptable."

You mean like, "Ahh, fuck! Look what I started!?"

Bucks's picture

Expletives happen. Going on an expletive laced rant is not ok in this decorum. Politics, thankfully, will never be something fostered here. 

This is one of the few places left right now for people to have legitmate conversations w/o devolving into just a bunch of insults/expletives/your mom, crap. There is nothing wrong with trying to preserve a sense of respecting the poster and/or disagreeing without being crude or crappy.

Is it Saturday Yet's picture

Focusing on athletics? Athletics crosses so many genres it's impossible to just focus on athletics. Plus I like talking about other things and making jokes/references.

They only link to it, and most of the time it's done in good fun. I pass on the links.  So could you.  I think they do a good job of keeping this site boobie free.  Just wait until Sarah starts posting pictures of Hodor naked or "leg" Oden.

Only is it okay in some cases -- like a turnover, penalty, bad play, NCAA violations, Hightower, Dave 15 times in a row, punting, failed fourth down conversions, Hightower, arm punts and Hightower.

Agreed -- as long as we quit it with using the word "gay" in an insulting way and stop using "no homo"

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

what do you have against Bubba Smith's charecter in Police Academy?

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

SouthBayBuckeye's picture



yeah, I knew that.

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

Is it Saturday Yet's picture

I kind of though so.  I had a drill instructor named Hightower.  I can still feel the hate that guy burned into my soul.

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

I'm sure he appreciated Police Academy related jokes too.  Drill instructors usually have the best sense of humor.

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

are we at the point where we need to fake outrage about this stuff? no one is depicted naked, or in uber-suggestive fashion. it's not really a big deal.

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

BucksfanXC's picture

I really am not offended by it either, but I just really don't want this place to turn into a frat house, BR, Forde type crap that uses boobs instead of content to prop up readership. I honestly don't think that's the intent, because I understand it's kind of an inside running joke.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

I get what you're saying, but I honestly don't think we're in danger of this happening. NOW, if I start to see every story turn in to a slideshow, then I'll be concerned.

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST

BucksfanXC's picture

Ha! I totally agree. 

I just hope Elika (or any other writer, male or female) knows she doesn't need to pander to be valuable. This article, and all the ones she's written so far, have been great, with or without Matt Mc photos. I don't mind looking at sexy pictures either. But I don't need them to come here, nor do I want the kind of commenters here that would. But, it's not my blog, that's selfish to think. So you people are right, if I don't want, I don't have to click the links or look at the photos. If I only like the articles, I just read the articles.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

Elika's picture

I don't think any pics I've posted include any sort of exclusive, never before seen, body part that would bring new viewership here, so I never thought of it as pandering. It was mostly a joke and seeing that you can only use the same joke so many times, I didn't really intend to incorporate it moving forward unless, for whatever reason, the discussion called for it.

If I'm ever trying to get new readers through the fact that men like scantily clad women, trust me, you'll know. I know there are jucier things than yoga pants and cheerleaders out there... but I also know that anyone who wants that can just hit up their good friend Google. The same way you don't need boobs to come to 11W, you don't need 11W to see boobs.

Now, if you ever catch me referencing politics or religion, or dropping the F bomb, on here (my Twitter is another story)... please bring it to my attention.

How firm thy friendship... OH-I-O!

NC_Buckeye's picture

Elika, my advice to you is the same that was given to Fick -- just be yourself. If you want to put pictures of minotaurs in every post, then go for it. There is no wrong answer.

BTW, I think both you and Sarah are coming up with good stuff. Keep it up.

And kudos to the 11W editors for their staff selection.

BucksfanXC's picture

I really didn't mean to imply that you were, which is, in hindsight, how it appears. But I suppose what I meant is, I hope you, or anyone who writes for this site for that matter, don't start doing so. Which is again, not to say that you would. I completely know that it's a joke, and I think today when I read it, it wasn't as funny as it normally is, and began to cross into my mind, "Oh I hope this joke is over, and I hope it's only a played out joke and not a sign of the times" which is what caused me to comment on it.

I just think back to that reader survey and I know there was a lot of "I want more boobs" responses, and I hope that's not taken seriously and we don't actually give us what we want by giving us boobs. I don't think that's why Elika and Sarah were added as writers, and I don't think it adds to the quality of this site. This site has done nothing but get better, especially in the last 3-6 months with the additions of Sarah, Elika, Danny, Jeremy, etc. as well as the features like Across the Field and Around the Oval. Now I feel like we, the commenters, need to improve too. We need to stop begging for girly pics and hitting on the new girls. Instead we need to civilly debate, write great blogs/forum topics, vote in the polls, and support the Buckeyes.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

NC_Buckeye's picture

If you're giving props to writers, don't forget Ramzy. I'm impressed by every article he submits. He could easily write for the Dispatch, Plain Dealer, Beacon Journal, or Inquirer as a beat writer if he were so inclined.

BucksfanXC's picture

Oh of course, and Keith, and DJ and Sam, and Alex and everyone. I just didn't have a list in front of me as I was typing that, but everyone is great.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

btalbert25's picture

Someone fill me in here.  Have all the comments come because of the picture of the cheerleaders on this post or is there a link I missed?  Why has it become an issue now?  I've been coming to this site for quite some time now and remember seen several pictures of scantily clad women wich acompanied posts.  Why is just now an issue? 

I remember when Nebraska joined the B1G there was a picture of Melissa Midwest.  For the Ohio State Michigan game there were 2 girls one in each jersey that were wearing each jersey who were posing in a sexually suggestive way.  It seems to me that for as long as I've been coming to this site there have been examples of such pictures being posted with blog posts. 

Did I miss something here?  Does no one else remember this?

BucksfanXC's picture

Yeah, I remember all those too, but those were all spread out over several months/years and were all jokes, usually accompanied by a guilty comment from the poster (Chris/Corey/Jason/etc.) saying, "I don't want to go all Bleacher Report on ya, but couldn't resist posting this picture". I just saw another picture on an Elika post that had a caption of "your weekly fix" and immediately thought, this is no longer a joke, it's actually becoming a feature, and I hope that's not the case. Like I said above, I don't think that was the intent. My comment was just my stream of conscious written out, because I had an "oh no, don't go all Forde on me" moment.

“Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect.”  - Woody

Nappy's picture

Nope, you're not alone.  But I think the comments were about the skittles commercial link.  But you're right, Melissa Midwest was posted on here. (if you're not familiar with her, look her up.  Just not at work)  I'm pretty sure we're all adults here and can decide for ourselves if we want to click a link or not.  And censorship is a personal pet peeve of mine probably because I curse like a pissed off sailor even when I'm happy as shit. I dont think anything has been said/typed/posted that has been in bad taste.  That said, not everyone thinks like we do.

I never saw a football player make a tackle with a smile on his face

NC_Buckeye's picture

When Sarah and Elika first started contributing posts, there were a couple comments that bordered on "lewd". I think XC and a couple of others were trying to encourage their fellow 11W commenters to be gentlemen in regards to the new staff writers.

Probably not necessary as I think Sarah and Elika would take care of business if someone got out of hand. At least that's my take on the situation.

Hoody Wayes's picture

Great points in this and your previous post, central of which, is that we want to be sure we're all comfortable, here. Sometimes WE just have to remind ourselves, that's all. 

SouthBayBuckeye's picture

FFS...... we've just murdered this post with some version of political correctness.


(not necessarily pointed at you, this was just the last comment in the line)

Banned from ATO since June 3rd 2PMish PST