Last week, the football team announced the return of Nike Pro Combat uniforms for the Michigan game. The helmets are rumored to be scarlet, surely driving fans already sour over the '09 editions over the edge. But in a few weeks, the new unis will be the least of our concerns. The Big Ten is set to announce divisional alignment details within the next month, and talk of splitting the Big Ten's two traditional powers into separate divisions, with the kicker being The Game moving up earlier in the season, is picking up steam and athletic directors from the two schools have done little to calm the nerves of anxious fans on each side. In what would be a play for cash, the league would split Ohio State and Michigan in the hopes of pitting the two titans in the conference championship game. The rivalry between the two will be protected, so in order to avoid a rematch just a week after playing, the league would move the annual war to October. Obviously, you don't need me to tell you that this is not a good thing. In fact, there aren't many things short of curing cancer and defending an attack from an alien race that will bring Buckeyes and Wolverines together, but this is one of them. Cook:
And with both ADs at Michigan and Ohio State trying to prepare the fans for a soft landing, it's clear which way this is going: the stupidest possible way. ONE: It is extremely unlikely that Michigan and Ohio State would ever actually score a championship game rematch. Splitting the two teams is a pointless exercise in hoping that once every ten years you get another one. This is no longer the 1970s. TWO: Michigan's year-end opponent: Michigan State? Boy, that will fire up everyone on Rivalry Week: "It's Michigan! It's some team that's been within a game of .500 every year since SEC schools started recruiting black kids! On ABC!" THREE: Whatever damage the rivalry sustains because of the split is going to vastly outweigh the piddling slice of extra revenue Michigan and Ohio State will get from a 1/12th split of the incremental bump the Big Ten Championship Game gets because maybe once every ten years they'll get to pit Michigan against Ohio State. FOUR: Dennis Dodd thinks this is the way to go. QED.
What's left is Ohio State vs. Michigan. What's left is a game that goes beyond the records, that defines the season for both teams, that allows one team the delicious opportunity to play spoiler, that in good years could serve as an ideal de facto conference semifinal and that allows fans to recharge their animosity over a full season, building to the one game that matters more than any other. ... Change is necessary and often beneficial. But this change would be an avoidable choice. Separating Ohio State and Michigan isn't a must.
I struggle to believe that something so deleterious, odious to the conference’s two largest fanbases would be under serious consideration. It apparently is. Keeping it simple, and preserving the Ohio State-Michigan series while gradually cultivating Iowa-Nebraska out west would make the most of the new Mercedes that the Big Ten got when it added Nebraska and allowed itself to have a conference championship game. I guess we’re pleading with the Big Ten now: don’t be Charlie Sheen; don’t wreck that car off the side of a cliff.
I'm likely a little more progressive than some of my peers on the tradition front. I didn't lose any sleep when the team painted the endzones a few years ago and the "Rivalry" uniforms unveiled last season provoked a curious response out of me more than anything else. But this? This? This is madness. An adage comes to mind about fixing things that aren't broken. The two teams have played each other on the final week of the regular season every year since 1935 and I like to think it's worked out pretty well for the conference. Let me repeat that: EVERY YEAR SINCE 1935. Sure, the Wolverines are down a bit now, but there's not a serious Buckeye fan out there that doesn't believe they'll be back eventually.
I'm not even sure I can muster the appropriate hate for the game if it were to be moved up in the season or played under the cloud of a potential rematch. I mean, sure, I can get some hate going, but will it be the type of hate that this rivalry deserves? To get to that kind of hate, the weather must be pissy and the trees outside wet and leafless. Not leafy and with ghost decorations hanging from them. Delany a history of shrewd moves as the head of the conference, and by all accounts, Big Ten Network president Mark Silverman seems like a bright guy, but they're evidently willing to sacrifice the best thing the conference has going for it for something that will likely not happen as frequently as some would believe. Lesmerises went back to 1993 -- the year Delany has stressed as being the base year for split evaluations -- and determined conference championship participants based on an OSU/UM split and we're talking three matchups. 18 percent. Make no mistake about it, we're in the midst of a conference arms race, and some moves must be made with the bottom line in mind. This is not one of them. If Commissioner Delany is doing his homework, he'll reach out to the ACC to see how well the Florida State/Miami split has worked out.
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Comments
I'm preparing some old couches and furniture to be burnt on Frambes if they decide to split the two into separate divisions and move the game up into BASEBALL season!
Bo and Woody are rolling in their graves. I saw it with my own eyes.
p.s. - Dennis Dodd is on my watch list.
too bad fans won't have a say..
Not a smart move by the Big 10 (12). This will hurt the conference as the Showcase game ALWAYS played on the last Saturday of conference game will slip into the muck of the regular season.... it probably will not get the coveted National coverage spot anymore and be relegated to regional coverage and ESPN game plan PPV status for everyone outside the Mid-West and East coast. This decision is extremely short sighted.
I couldn't agree more with the pargraph dedicated to hate. You need time for hate to fester, especially for this game. Sadness. $$$.
This is a terrible mistake. You simply cannot mess with the tradition - it defines college football.
For the first time in almost 80 years we're going to have to ask ourselves the question, "When the Michigan game this season?"
More Fashionista indigestion over uniforms? That whining is irrelevant. Most of the players like the new/old look and they looked damn good as they pancaked the Winghats.
Michigan is sliding down the steep slope of mediocrity. OSU/Michigan rivalry is only as good as the teams involved. University of Chicago vs Northwestern was a huge rivalry in 1921...... but things change. The University of Chicago Maroons now play Div III football and Michigan isn't far behind. Worry more about Iowa, Nebraska, and Wisconsin.
Bulletin for all you traditionalists, it isn't 1968 anymore.
And to think that this whole "problem" goes away if they take the simple (and obvious) step of putting OSU and scUM in the same division. Too easy I guess.
have they decided how tiebreakers will be decided? If it's division record > overall conference record > BCS rank, then its even less likely we will play them in the championship. cause we will hand michigan an extra conference loss each year, where nebraska, iowa, wisky will play a weaker eastern div school.
and realistically, if you assume we win the division 50% of the time and Michigan wins 50% of the time, that's meeting once every 4 years.
Whether the game is the final week or a few weeks before, it's greatness is lessened by the new CCG. Before we get de facto championship games, but no more. Statistically when the game is played makes no difference when in determining who plays in the CCG. Give the rivalry some significance by preserving the possibility that an OSU-UM get could happen.
The heads of the conference apparently looked at Oregon, with their mix-and-match-every-week uniforms, track-suit band, and lack of any significant traditions.... and decided this is the direction that the Big Ten should go because they have a nice locker room?
I had never really understood how amazing OSU tradition is until I saw their band take the field against ours. Tradition is what defines this school, this conference. You can tweak it. You can add little changes, like moving the end of the conference by a week, or getting new uniforms that preserve the general look of the old ones. You do not cast it away.
The OSU-Michigan game is about the chance of a perfect season versus the chance of the perfect upset. You move that to the middle of the season, when the season still holds so many unknowns... Hell, even Minnesota has made it to 6-0 in recent years!
Times change. The year-end rivalry for all games is no longer as important as the year-end title game.
I hope Jim Delaney's security detail is good if they move The Game. Lots of angry Midwesterners...
Not necessarily. Because the losing team will always have a loss, it is much more likely that a team that the winner of the Game doesn't play sneaks into the opposite championship berth. Much like Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, etc, tend to tie for Big 10 champs each year they don't play one or both of OSU & UM.
Here's my take on the game. It is awesome to have it on the last Saturday of the season. I love the game, the overcast sky, all that stuff. However, the notion that this game will not get national coverage is crazy. If Notre Dame Michigan is a nationally televised game, Ohio State Michigan will be too, no matter what day they play. I'm a little put off at the prospect of them playing 2 times in one year, but I do believe this will be few and far between.
I'm not in favor of the proposed changes to the rivalry, but I refuse to believe it marks the end of the rivalry. Not to mention, how great would it have been in those years that Michigan ruined Ohio State's national championship chance to come back and lay an ass whooping on them in the conference title game?
Not that I support the decision in the slightest, but if the Game is in October, they'll make it the Sat night game for that week - breaking more tradition, but giving more spotlight. At least for the first few years.
Since when does a great story end in the middle?
Ohio State and Michigan must be in the same division and end their regular seasons, facing each other in "The Game." Penn State and Nebraska can end their regular seasons in, "The Other Game." Has any of the B10's great thinkers contemplated a "Big 4" rivalry weekend? Seems the perfect way to end the season - to me.
Obviously, both fanbases must unite and launch a massive, multi-media campaign, to thwart this maneuver.
Perhaps, the web masters at 11W should collaborate with their counterparts at Maize'n'Brew or MGOBlog to create a website to flagship the reaction to this foolish talk. Certainly, the alumni associations must be urged to act.
This is the greatest rivalry in sport. Buckeyes and Wolverines must guard the gates.
Maybe, the administrations at both schools should have let SBC sponsor The Game, back in 2002. Having that kind of corporate involvement - now - might have quashed this discussion, at a whisper.
Bottom line, the B10 is not so big without Ohio State and Michigan. I wish the threat of these two teams, leaving the conference, would be issued.
Let's not adopt a defeatist tone just yet. There is something very, very wrong with the space-time continuum when Buckeye fans and Wolverine fans grow into solid agreement on the same issue: that this is a very, very bad idea. Like you said Jason, these are the two most powerful fan bases in the conference, and it's not really even close.
I hate to get all grassroots up in here, but maybe it's worth a shot to foment some popular dissent and see if we can't burn us a metaphorical couch by angering up the blood of the respective fanbases. We can't really touch Delaney. But AD Mike Smith and AD Dave Brandon are beholden to their respective fan bases. And the BTN director has to respond to the market. If they like their six-figure salaries, then they cater to us, not the other way around. Smith and Brandon saying no way will stop this before it starts. They simply believe they can get away with it before they wake the lumbering beasts.
11W, lead the charge against tyrranny and America-haters. I say 11W forms the most powerful weapon the world has ever seen -- the cliched event-specific facebook group. I'm sorry, did I just blow your mind? Make this is a joint-venture, between 11W and MGoBlog. Rally up the other lessers blogs to the cause. Commenters invite their friends. Friends of commenters invite their friends. We establish rallies in the early games of the season at the respective institutions. We generate Dispatch/Freep coverage. Wealthy/Old alumni take notice. We make ADs Smith and Brandon think twice about screwing with something that is far bigger than their respective egos.
This is the Big 10. This is Ohio State and Michigan's Big 10. In the words of pick-six Rick Stanzi, if you don't love it, leave it.
Errr, gene smith. it's early.
2 Marshall Tickets for sale (again, I know). Email alex@elevenwarriors.com if interested before they go on stubhub
If the success rate at a re-match is only 18% what is the issue with seperate divisions and still having The Game on the last weekend of the year? Also why are two teams (PSU and Nebraska) with the least amount of conference experience allowed to possibly change what has been the best thing the Big 10 has had going for it since before even Jo Pa was coaching?
who the hell is running the big ten bp oil. this is retarded!!!!
In the words of Buddy the Elf....
These people are a bunch of Cotton-Headed-Ninny-Muggins.
Love the poster though.
I'm not as worked up as many here who have posted - as long as we continue to play scUM each and every year, that would be my only requirement.
also if its true scarlet helmets the only way nike could spin this look saying have to be a feuxback to the 1966 67 teams who went 4-5 nad 6-3. atleast they said last seasons "throwback" was for the 54 team
if this goes through everyone knows who we are ending the season against those little lion peckerheads to the east and their old crazy dementia coach. i blame penn state for all of this crap. once again i will say this who the hell is penn state to have any storke what so ever in the bigten.
This morning Colin Cowherd defended the 2007 Buckeyes against the media in the first 10 minutes of his show.
Madness? This is SPARTA! Seriously, how am I the first one to catch that one?
Anyway, back on topic. It's The Game. Not The Games. Moving it to the middle of the season will lessen the rivalry and putting both teams in different divisions will kill it. It's already bad enough The Game is going to be played on Thanksgiving Weekend. Why totally destroy tradition, which is one of the cornerstones of the Big 10, just on the off-chance that you're going to get a rematch?
Anyone know a point of contact at the universities (M*ch*g*n and Ohio State) who we could email and voice our displeasure? I just remember that article in the Dispatch where Gene Smith said that he hadn't received much feedback regarding the possibility of moving the game. I'd be happy to write to both AD's and let them know how I feel on the matter.
PSU does stand to gain the most in this.
Did hell just freeze over?
Stupid. How can Delaney be so capable of brilliance (add Nebraska) and idiocy (split OSU and U-M) at once?
I still don't understand how a east/west geographical split doesn't work. Iowa, Wisc and Neb out west are pretty strong, and will be for a long while. There's no reason to split OSU, U-M & PSU.
I completely agree, Matt. Popular dissent in the form of a coordinated effort between 11W, Mgoblog, and the other fansites (ozone, tBBC, etc.) has the potential to significantly change the minds of the AD's, at least.
If the Big Ten does that, then no OSU/UM game will ever determine the conference champion. That demotes the rivalry as much as rescheduling the regular season game.
I would put them in separate divisions and leave the regular season rivalry game at the end of schedule. Why would a rare rematch in the conference championship be a terrible thing?
How awesome would it be to be able to beat Michigan twice in the same year... just sayin.
Then it goes from conference bragging rights to division bragging rights. Simple name change, and something that will mathematically happen a whole lot more often than OSU-UM deciding the championship (which has only happened - IIRC - 7 or 8 times in the last twenty years in our current system)
Here's some Maurice news:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/...
Doing something as a money grab at the expense of the quality of the product..... I fail to see the problem here.
From a competitive standpoint it makes the most sense to use these two as the anchors of each division. We already know competitive balance job #1. If you put both in same div., where do you put PSU? Keep in mind PSU would no longer be guaranteed games against OSU and UM. Who would be PSU's cross-div protected opponent? You guys have to look at all the ramifications and I don't think you're doing that.
I know that I'd always be hankering for an OSU-UM CCG when both teams are the two best teams in the BT. But that could never happen, NEVER. Never could we have at atmosphere like in 2006, NEVER. By forcing both teams into the same div. It will ALWAYS be the prelude, not the feature.
I'm torn on this issue, so to play devil's advocate: the traditional set-up of The Game was already significantly altered the day Nebraska joined the BT, which was a net positive. As SonOfBuckeye wrote above, "If the Big Ten [keeps Ohio State and Michigan in the same division], then no OSU/UM game will ever determine the conference champion. That demotes the rivalry as much as rescheduling the regular season game."
I would urge fans to reflect on what has made the game "The Game." For example, the Ten Year War was partly stoked by intangibles - the personalities of Woody and Bo, the cultural trends of the era, etc. - but it was also very largely driven by the fact that Ohio State and Michigan were two of the upper elite programs annually playing for ALL THE MARBLES. The Game was like a semifinal for the national championship, whereas putting Ohio State and Michigan in the same division now would mean that The Game would become, at best, a quarterfinal for the NC. I'm not arguing against that option, just urging folks to think about how much has already changed.
That's an astute way of putting it: "it will ALWAYS be the prelude, not the feature."
2006 will never happen again in any 2-division scenario. You will not have an Alabama-Florida match in the championship game, because there is no way this game will not be played every year. That means that one team will always have at least one loss.
So you have the choice of best-case scenarios between:
Two undefeated's meeting in a historic game in the last game of the season with a trip to the conference championship (and an opportunity to play for the national championship) on the line
OR
A conference championship of one undefeated versus a one loss team that they already beat in a double jeopardy rematch where one can go to the national championship and the other can go to the rose bowl.
I honestly don't see how the second is better than the first, unless all you care about is promoting the Big Ten Championship game. Either of them will be a huge draw for big ten football in general.
this is just stupid. if you lok at geographic divisions it all works out how much differnce is there in the top 3 in tOSU, scum and pennst. as the top three vs nebraska iowa wisconsin top 3 other division. just line them up in that order it seems pretty balanced overall top to bottom:
east west
tOSU --- neb
penn --- iowa
scum --- wisc
________________________
sparty --- illini
purdont --- nerdwestern
indiana --- minn
Will anyone much care a few years after the fact who won a division if they didn't go on to win the conference? "Division bragging rights" sounds meh to me.
If the OSU/UM game decided the championship 7 out of 20 times (sry, too lazy to check), that's a lot. Why reduce that to zero in the future?
OSU - nebraska biggest best teams overall most likely to win say 7outta 10
penn - iowa solid programs with few breaks can contend most years
scum - wisc see above
spary - illini need alot of breaks to get up high in division but stillcan compete
pur- nerds need a miracle season and down years from the bigger teams
inidiana- minn dream on bottom feeders
it just makes too much sence.... delany you horse's ass dont screw this up
"Conference bragging rights" were becoming "meh" to most Ohio State fans prior to the Rose Bowl.
And it won't be "reduced to zero"; OSU-UM won't directly decide the championship (which hasn't happened consistently since the 70's anyway), but the winner of that game will stand an awfully good chance of winning the conference. Like OU-UT, it'll be a championship play-in game.
Actually, I'd say "conference bragging rights" remain essentially "meh" to Ohio State fans. Been there, done that. We want the national championship, mythical as it is
agreed.
If I look at other conferences, and how things are done, I'm not so sure that this is as big of a deal as others make it out to be. I understand tradition and I'm not saying poo-poo on it or anything like that, but 2 things occur to me. Having the teams in the same division makes the most sense sure, but if they are in the other division will it lessen the intensity? LSU and Florida or Tennessee and Alabama, are great rivalries.
On the other side of things, wouldn't Oklahoma and Texas be a better rivalry if they were protected and in seperate divisions? You would have the 2 powers of the conference square off twice and avoid a situation like we had 2 years ago.
In a perfect world the game would stay just how it is, but that may not happen here. Even if it is preserved for now, likely in the not so distant future it's going to change. Things always do. I realize I say this in a time where OSU has won a nice string of Big 10 titles, but the Big 10 isn't just the Big 2 and little 8, 9, or soon to be 10. There are other teams on the block, and while certainly they are the biggest programs in the mix, there are others out there that need to be thought of too.
Email Jim Delany - jdelany@bigten.org
Tell him to keep The Game the same!
jdelany@bigten.org - jdelany@bigten.org
Email Jim Delany - jdelany@bigten.org
Tell him to keep The Game the same!
It hasn't been a rivalry for 2+ decades. They beat our #ss throughout the late '80s and the entire '90s. We have owned them since the early 2000s. I love the domination over them last decade and I hope we continue it, but people always bring Woody and Bo into it because that was the last time it was an actual rivalry. At this point I don't care when we play them as long as we beat that #ss up and down the field every year.
"Actually, I’d say 'conference bragging rights' remain essentially 'meh' to Ohio State fans."
I know that feeling, but don't you think this will change when there is a post-season conference championship game? No more 'everyone's a winner!' shared titles.
"Been there, done that. We want the national championship, mythical as it is"
Agreed, but part of that is because Michigan has been stinking up the joint, so OSU naturally started to look elsewhere for a meaningful challenge. Now that Nebraska joined and other teams like Iowa and Wisconsin look strong, maybe people will take the conference title more seriously.
Please let's not restrict OSU/UM to a "play-in" game.
Texas and Oklahoma might work but the tradition is not the same. It is only a recent development that they were in the same conference. The tradition is to play at the State Fair in the Cotton Bowl early in the season. Texas has another rival that makes more sense to play at the end, and Oklahoma can just about say the same.
The beauty of the Ohio State - Michigan rivalry is its location at the end of the season. Sure, there are bowls after that which don't diminish it. But the entire season we have Michigan to look forward to. Texas and Oklahoma miss out on that. I'd imagine the Texas-Oklahoma game would be even better if it was at the end of the season and played on campus. One of their seasons become meaningless very quickly. Even if Ohio State loses a few games early, spoiling Michigan is a huge motivating factor for both the players and the fan base. If they win a lot coming into that game, it's always the last hurdle, even if Michigan isn't that good.
Moving it will demote the rivalry down to 2nd tier status. Sure LSU and Florida, and Alabama-Tennessee are cute rivalries. But the Iron Bowl is far more meaningful for a large part due to its location in the schedule. More people would name Auburn as Alabama's biggest rival than Tennessee.
This is easily avoided by putting PSU and Nebraska in the same opposing division. It diminishes the game by having a championship game, yes. But just because a slight gash is present doesn't mean we should amputate the arm. The powers that be needed to have the the 12th team for $$$ reasons. I'd prefer things stayed as they did, but it's only a minor setback. There still is a divide between regular season and post-season, and bowl games haven't diminished the Ohio State - Michigan game much. But there is no need to completely ruin it.
How bad would it have sucked to get beat twice in the same year by them? Salt in an ax wound my friend. The '90s never happened by the way.
Even though we were dominated in the late 80s and 90s, how many times did Ohio State have a great team that got upset by an inferior Michigan team? There's no way you can't call that a rivarly. Even recently, there have been quite a few close games, a few upsets by an inferior Ohio State team.
Only the last two years have been anti-climatic. I fear it will only get worse until they get rid of DickRod. But even then, once Michigan gets back on their feet, it will rebound. Eventually Michigan will upset us and ruin our season again and the rivalry will be back.
I understand all that, but it's not like people will stop caring about Ohio State and Michigan playing eachother. How many times has the game really ended in the winner going to the National Championship/Rosebowl. Especially over the last 30 years. I mean where both teams have that chance, not just one or the other. My point is, the conference is different now than it was 50 years ago and it'll be different in the future. One thing that will still matter is Ohio State and Michigan playing eachother and hating eachother
To your point, but on the opposing side:
This rivalry (which it is and has been) has been built on broken dreams, disappointment and anger/frustration on both sides.
The B10 is making a huge gamble if they end up placing these teams in opposite divisions. The bet is that scUM is coming back to regain their place as the big 2. If this was a couple years ago, nothing would shake me from the belief that they would be back soon enough.
With the way things are going for RR, including losses in the worst possible place for his particular team (defense), it is hard for me to have the same stance. Add onto that the change in academic standards and you're creating a pretty terrible uphill climb.
The final issue being Nebraska. As things stand now, we would see another team in a championship game for years to come. Adding Nebraska into the fold pushes UM rematch even further away and rare.
I personally wouldn't have a problem still playing the end of the year game with the possibility of a rematch right away. Most people claim thats not fair and would create issues. Again, this rivalry has been built on the frustration, ruined dreams & a uniqueness. Being the only two teams to play one another at the end of the year and then rematch for a champ game, is fine with me. Alternating the game every other year from the middle of the season and the end, isn't ok with me ... but would be acceptable.
Moving the rivalry game to OSU vs Purwho, is not. Under any circumstances.
I know this will not be a popular statement, but I almost would rather play PSU on the last game of the year. Like it or not, they are becoming quite a foe, I will refrain from saying rivalry since that pisses people off for some reason. Seriously though, in the last few years there has been growing animosity between fan bases, Penn State has been the one big 10 team that has consistently been competeing for a Big 10 title the last 5 years or so. I really believe that game is starting to become the one on the schedule you have to circle each year.
By moving the only guaranteed meeting between these two teams to an anonymous weekend in October, the conference will eventually lose everything it has come to gain from the rivalry in the first place.
Right now there is ONE Ohio State Michigan game, and that game is still special, even though it has meant arguably less nationally since Michigan hired Rich Rod. It's still the final game of the regular season, the last chance for either team to redeem itself from an otherwise poor year. - Win? Celebrate. Lose? time to play basketball and hockey.
Will a mid-season match up have this effect? No! because win or lose both teams will be saying something to the nature of: "WELL IF IOWA LOSES TO WISCONSIN AND WE WIN OUT, WE'LL STILL WIN THE DIVISION" officially relegating OSU and UM's annual meeting to the equivalent of an October slate against Purdue- at that point the rivalry is officially dead, and will gain no more ratings or revenue than say Wisconsin vs. Penn State.
And... on the prospect of having a "revenue-maximizing" rematch:
1.) It will only happen if both OSU and UM win their divisions, which will rarely occur because if the two play each other every year, one will always have a loss going into the final week.
2.) With inevitable divide that will grow between schools in separate divisions, The conference might have more to gain by an "exotic" Championship game between teams not otherwise likely to play - Facing Nebraska during a year when they aren't featured on your regular conference schedule would seem more like a bowl or non-conference game, as opposed to a rematch with a typical rival.
3.) A rematch might have a negative effect on championship game ratings and attendance if, say, Ohio State blows out Michigan in week 6. Secondly a neutral t.v. audience might lose interest in seeing the same two teams play twice in one season.
Cant let it happen. This would not work at all i can deal with OSU V. UM not bieng the last game of the big ten season cuz the championship game after but this is just not right they cant do this to us.
You are looking at way too recent history. Just look at the last decade:
2000 Joe Paterno 5–7 4–4
2001 Joe Paterno 5–6 4–4
2002 Joe Paterno 9–4 5–3
2003 Joe Paterno 3–9 1–7
2004 Joe Paterno 4–7 2–6
Even Michigan's recent fall looks tame compared to that.
If you only look at the last 5 years, you will see a lot of weird stuff. Sure, PSU will historically be a top-tier team in the Big 10 along with Michigan and Nebraska for many years. But it's silly just to look at the last 5 years when the 5 years before that were quite pathetic. They have a whopping 1 outright title (+2 shared) in the last their 16 seasons. That's the same thing Northwestern has. Michigan has 2 outright and 3 shared in that same time. Ohio State has 3 outright, 5 shared.
So yeah, if you started watching College Football in 2005, Michigan looks pretty terrible next to Penn State (and even then, Michigan was 1 game away from the same results as PSU). The Michigan rivalry is not as sexy lately (although even so, you should be able to remember 2006). But we can't let recent past cloud our judgment. Things swing all the time. At one point, Auburn had beaten Alabama 6 times in a row, Oklahoma had crushed Texas 5 straight seasons, etc... That's what makes the rivalries great.
By "owned them" you mean "won a series of extremely close and dramatic games, often through heroic last-minute drives."
2001: Michigan nearly comes back from a 23-0 halftime deficit
2002: Game decided by a last-minute interception in the end zone.
2003: Only Michigan win in the Tressel years, sets NCAA attendance record.
2004: Major underdogs OSU defeat 9-1 wolverines - game marks the emergence of Troy Smith.
2005: Smith and Buckeyes win game on final drive with ridiculous catch by Gonzo.
2006: THE GAME. Epic shootout.
2007: Tight, low-scoring game in winter conditions.
All but the one Michigan win were close-fought, dramatic games. I can still remember how incredibly exciting 2005 and 2006 were. Up until the last two years, Michigan has been fighting incredibly hard to hold up their end of the bargain, they're just keep falling barely short.
This is Heresy. This is the equivalent to moving the Iron Bowl(Bama Auburn) to an earlier date. OSU and Michigan is one of the greatest rivalries in college football and should be left alone. Leave them in the same division if you have to split the conference. The way things are going lately Michigan is hardly a titan any longer anyway. Put Penn State and Iowa on the other side and Whiskey on the Bucks side. There...problem solved.
Oh and I forgot the addition ,Nebraska. Put them on the Bucks side to even it out.
I understand that Penn State has only been pretty good the last 5 years and hit some trouble in the early 2000's, but didn't they have some pretty good teams in the 90's also? In fact, isn't the all time series between PSU and OSU an even split? I understand all the history and everything with that, but the bottom line is, the OSU/Michigan hasn't had that winner take all meaning that it did during the BO and Woody days. In my lifetime, there have only been a few times where both teams could make the title game or winner took the conference. It just hasn't happened that often. It just hasn't had the national or even regional importance that it once did.
I'm not saying the game doesn't matter or isn't still the greatest rivalry etc. But to be all up in arms because the date may move or they could play 2 times, to me, is just silly. My point is the 2 teams will still hate eachother. It will be on national TV, it will sell out. And EVERYONE will say that is one hell of a rivalry. A little bit of the romance may be gone, that we had a bad year but if we beat Michigan the last game it'll be a great year mentality may be gone. Of course at the end of the day who cares i fyou didn't make a bowl game but you beat Michigan it really doesn't matter if you do it in October or NOvermber.
Cowboy: stop with the pessimism and write an email to Delany. There are some 40+ comments; Delany should have 40+ emails. Put in your "header" something like "BAD IDEA TO SPLIT MI/OSU"
The SEC kept some of the natural rivalries in tact. Bama TN always played on the 3rd Saturday in October and the Iron Bowl was always the last game. When the allignment happened they put Bama and Auburn in the West and TN in the East. Every team has a cross over rival in the other division and Bama plays TN every year. The other cross overs are played on a 5 year rotation. EX we play UF twice every 5 years. They could keep your traditions in tact and still have the realignment.
Agreed that adding Nebraska changes things. However, some change is acceptable. If tOSU-MI are in the same division and still play on the last saturday of the season, The Game may not be for the Rose Bowl or for a spot in the NCG (2006), but it's still (probably, mostly, occasionally) going to determine who wins the division. And it will likely be for "all the marbles" in the sense that the loser likely doesn't go to the CCG and likely won't get a BCS bowl invitation, etc.
Each will have the chance to end the other's season on a sour note. THAT is what it is all about. Sticking it to them with no chance of redemption (until next year).
you are right on with the Iron Bowl analogy. That is without question the biggest Tide rivalry. It's not even close. The real difference between OSU and MI and the Iron Bowl is that yours is a border war and ours is in state. Not sure if one is more heated than the other but it makes a difference when half the office is Bama and the other half is the Barners.
Why the requirement that both teams need that chance?
The chance of one team screwing over the other is a huge part of the drama.
And National Championship is a relatively recent thing to care about in Big 10 football. The Rose Bowl is still on the line, the Big 10 championship is on the line.
I'd say that Michigan and Ohio State playing the last week would at least partially decide the Division Winner at least 75% of the time. There are rare cases where it's locked up (like 2009), but that game will always matter for someone. Playing spoiler is a huge thing to look forward to after you have a down year as well.
SORRY NEBRASKA, BUT NO THANKS.
I cannot believe the f*ing pinheads and bean counters at the B10 HQ are really going to do this. They are really seriously going to split up Ohio State and Michigan into separate divisions.
It makes me so mad. If I was talking, I’d be spitting as I shouted. I wish I had my old Smith Corona and I could pound out my outrage. Manual typewriters were sooooo great for writing angry. All I have now is this effete keyboard that I can break into a million tiny pieces if I pound on it hard enough. I’m so mad I can barely type.
I am really pi**ed off about this. As far as I am concerned, Nebraska can suck on it. INVITATION RESCINDED!! If this is the price of conference expansion, I say “NO!” The Big11 was just fine. Don’t get me wrong, I love the addition of Nebraska, love Osborne and Pelini and GBR and all that. But if the dumbf**ks are going to split up tOSU and Meatchicken, I say forget it. Nebraska can go back to the BXII.
ARRRGGGG!!!! KLKKL[MAGKLMER 90U[ABG0 8UQ G4HAVNIOJ;AVH9- 8QABV Y8-Q GVBKLNABSFKNL;,.,JMHHTY UJUKLIEDL;OED;LODSZ.LDZS .D.EDOP;’[/EWED.DDCO;PEDORFD,MVC BVIOTR54SOP;[/’R4ZKLC
Okay, so I’ve taken a few deep breathes and gotten a new keyboard.
So who the hell thinks this is a good idea?
If Nebraska thinks this is a good idea, then FOR SURE, they can go back to the BXII. My guess, however, is that Nebraska fans would side with tOSU/MI on this. Historically, it was a disaster for the BXII when Nebraska and Oklahoma were put in separate divisions. Just like it is going to be for tOSU and Michigan.
I don’t believe Penn State fans would think this is a good idea. If they do, I can’t imagine why other than: “better tOSU goes west than us.” But the solution here is to hold fast and firm for a simple east-west split. Everyone is happy.
So, is this the Little Eight thinking they are finally getting their revenge on the Big Two? If so, it is an illogical and self-destructive way of getting revenge. Like it or not, the Big Two carried the conference in the late 60s, 70s and 80s and, consequently, set the stage for the resurgence of programs like Wisconsin and Northwestern. Yeah, it is not fun losing most of the time. But, sorry, your best revenge is to get a better football team. This "revenge" is killing off the golden-egg laying goose.
The glory of a conference as old as the Big Ten is that every team has something. Vis a vis tOSU, in recent history, Purdue will always have ‘09, Illinois will have ‘07, MSU will always have ‘98 (and ’74). In a broader sense, NwU will always have its Rose Bowl season, Minny will always have it’s National Championships from way back when, etc. The Little Eight shouldn’t be pushing a OSU-Michigan split out of spite; it’s the kind of spite that cuts off your own nose.
The only people that could possibly like this idea are Delany and dumbf**k tv executives. It’s about tv ratings; if one “The Game” is good, then two “The Games” is better. That is such a cold heartless soulless immoral corporate thought. To them, football games are inventory and fungible commodities to be monetized to maximize ratings and advertising revenue.
But, college games – be they football or b-ball or any of the other sports – are exactly the opposite. They are about passion, hatred, history, swings of emotion. To take a b-ball example: it’s tOSU-MI in the 2010 B10 b-ball tourney: Manny Harris hits a jumper to give Michigan a two point lead with 2.2 seconds on the clock; Michigan’s going to win it and knock tOSU out of the B10 tourney; then Evan Turner rips their hearts out!
In football, OSU and Michigan only get one chance a year to ruin the other’s season. It has been that way since 1935. It’s a function of when the game is played (last weekend of the season) and that there is only one game. If you f**k with either of those, you are destroying the essence of the rivalry. If tOSU-MI are in the same division and still play on the last saturday of the season, The Game may not be for the Rose Bowl or for a spot in the NCG (2006), but it’s still (probably, mostly, occasionally) going to determine who wins the division. And it will likely be for “all the marbles” in the sense that the loser doesn’t go to the CCG (and therefore no NCG) and likely won’t get a BCS bowl invitation, etc. I relish – RELISH – the idea of ending TSUN’s year on a sour note and making sure that they will not play in the CCG. “Suck on it!” with no chance of redemption (until next year).
By the way, history agrees. Cross-divisional rivals diminish (Neb-OK; Miami-FSU); inter-division rivalries still flourish (TX-OK, ‘Bama-Auburn).
This is really BAD people. Write your AD, write Delany, write your congressman, write your Governor. (I’m serious, if the Governors of Ohio and Michigan spoke out against this, Delany and his TV exec f*tarts would listen!!). Be outraged! This is important!!
When is the rally? Where is the March Against Madness? I'll drive in from Chicago to attend!!
Sincerely,
BuckeyeBeau
Chicago
Wow, this is nearly as strong of a statement as Mgoblog and 11W agreeing.
When OSU, Michigan, *and* Alabama fans agree that something's a bad idea, it's a horrible f'ing idea!
It's not about "Division bragging rights" or "Conference bragging rights". It's about "Yearly Bragging Rights!'. I don't want to play meatchicken twice. I want to beat them once and gloat for a year. Or God forbid lose once and let that inner hate boil for 360 + days.
No one is talking about this:
Why can't we have two divisions that have nothing to do with geography?
Examples:
Great Lakes:
Ohio State
Michigan
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Illinois
Northwestern
Midwest:
Penn State
Nebraska
Iowa
Michigan State
Purdue
Indiana
This seems like the most balanced possibilility
well put and f5!!! expansion if it splits the rivals into different div or moves the game anywhere f5!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah that would have sucked. But you know what it would have been if we came back and won the second time? A tie. Stop and thik about it. You can call each game anything you want, but if you play twice in a single year and split the games you limp away with a TIE! Here's a better point to drive this home. Say you're at a pub after the afformentioned tie happens, and a meatchicken fan starts in on you about how they won "The Game", and you let out with a "Yeah, well we won when it "really counted". Are you going to be able to live with yourself after that? If you say yes, donate all your Buckeye gear and go root for Penn State.
See my reply above to Brian & Poop, you split the games and it's a tie for the year, and a tie in football is wrong 100% of the time!
Email Gene Smith at athletic_directory@osu.edu....I actually got a response from "Gene Smith". Not sure it was really him though. He said publicly that he had not gotten complaints...so I wrote to complain.
it's common knowledge that you can look up any OSU employee or student's OSU email through the online directory. You can do much better than the generic email address.
Amen Mike. The Big Ten championship game will Never mean as much to me as "The Game". You get 1 shot at your rival. You lose, you sit and think about that for a whole damn year. You don't like that feeling and so you train and prep and study, and never let it happen again. Second Chances need not apply.
Yes, Yes, Yes! I want to sleep at night knowing that 20 years in the future when we have a bad run of luck and lose 4 games, that we can still screw the wolvereenies with an end of season upset.
that game was so much fun to be at. one of the best i've been to
A famous man once said, "You're only as good as your last game."
You win that last game, and you love it for the year.
it's almost even(13-12 good guys) all time. since 1993,when PSU joined the b10 and made it 11, it leans heavily towards OSU
I like this better. Looks ballanced (short term history))
(confrence wins since Penn State joined)
Great Lakes:
Ohio State (106)
Michigan (94)
Penn State (86)
Illinois (45)
Northwestern (59)
Indiana (33)
Total: 418
Midwest:
Nebraska (98)
Wisconsin (79)
Iowa (71)
Purdue (63)
Michigan State (63)
Minnesota (44)
Total: 423
You can swap out Michigan State for Northwestern.
To put Penn State in the West is really silly in my mind.
I don't think it matters what the divisions are. The Big Ten can choose to do the same thing they do right now, guarantee each team has two teams that they play every year. Just make UM v OSU the same weekend it always has been and we're fine.
see, this is the whole thing, you're absolutely right, it doesn't matter at all what the divisions are. the only reason why they want to move the game is because they think a back to back OSU/UM slate would hurt ratings. it's all BS
ultimately, i'd like to see them battle it out for whatever division title and the chance to go play the winner of the other division. THE game is still worth a lot.
but, in the name of balance they may put them on the other side, because some day ttun will be decent again. just not this year, or the next.
I couldn't believe it either.
My guess is that you are now on your third marriage. Because, you know, tradition is sooooo 1968.
I consider myself to be an Ohio State diehard so I have thought long and hard about this. After thinking about it I don't see a problem with it really. I am all for tradition but sometimes you need to change to survive and that's what the Big Ten is doing in this expansion. Not long ago the Big Ten faced much ridicule for being an overrated conference in comparison to the SEC especially. Making our conference harder to win creating a championship game is the first step in doing that. Personally I would like Michigan to be in our division, but it doesn't make sense to do that. Having in unbalanced alignment would only create what the Big 12 use to have for so long. One dominant division and another being inferior. Putting Michigan in the West with Nebraska balances things out (if Michigan wins ever again). With Nebraska and Michigan in the West and Ohio State and Penn State in the East you have balance. Moving "The Game" up is essential to avoid playing each other in consecutive weeks. The winner of the Big Ten now, almost certainly, would be in the running for National Championships every year like the SEC and Big 12 have been doing. Besides, what's better than beating Michigan every year? Beating them twice!
Wow! Some really great comments here.
What we need is the equivalent of the Tea Party. A "BigTen Tea Party" of sorts. Obviously, people are fired up.
You obviously have never been to Toledo, Ohio, where I swear the population is almost split 50/50 between Ohio State and Micihgan fans. (Actually probably more like 60/40 in favor of Ohio State, now).
And the Toledo War goes back to pre-Civil War days. Top that.
Google "The Toledo War." The hatred between Ohio and Michigan goes way back.
I got a posey Nike combat jersey when I went to bucks against Illinois basketball game this year
What is all this talk of "what is at stake"? While conference titles and national prestige certainly add flavor to this game, neither are the purpose in playing it. As the schedule has been ordered for 75 years, one thing has always been on the line: winning the Ohio State-Michigan game. That is enough.
Have some respect for the tradition you claim to be a part of.
The national debate begins. Looks like others want to help us get our job done:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/f...
A question: Is Tom Osborne (also, a former senator) the catalyst for this encroachment upon The Game?
The point is you shouldn't foolishly look at only 5 years to determine anything in college football. Michigan has been down for exactly 2 years. Penn State has been down before. Michigan, Penn State, Nebraska, and Ohio State will be the most consistent teams in the Big 10.
If you just started watching football in the Tressel era (which it sounds like), it might not mean as much. But even when we were getting our asses handed to us by Michigan in the Cooper days, that game still meant an awful lot.
The game isn't about selling out or putting it on TV and getting an audience. It's about defining the season. There is absolutely no reason to change something that has worked for 70 years. If you really think the Penn State rivalry even comes close to the Michigan rivalry, you just plain don't understand what it means to be a Buckeye. My guess is you aren't one.
We should kick out Penn State for starting this mess and go back to the real Big 10.
I think that one thing you and many others are missing is the thing you have alluded to here: the SEC. I've lived in SEC country for about 7 years and one thing that these guys did right was to keep their football divisions simple. Split up into a simple East-West dynamic and let the competitive balance cycle itself out.
Throughout most of the SEC's divisional split the East was a wrecking crew with Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee laying the wood to each other. The west had LSU after Saban arrived and Auburn for a bit, but it seems that except for a few years Alabama was down. With Saban arriving at UA, Georgia underachieving, and Tennessee imploding the power has moved out west. Recruit or die I suppose.
There were a few cross rivalries protected (ie Alabama-Tennessee) but they didn't care about some fake competitive balance that is cyclical! Is PSU, OSU, & UM better in the east than NU, IA, & UW in the west? With the way UM has been playing I'd say "No". Will UM be better in years to come? Probably, but who's to say Iowa will be down? What happens if UM goes through 15 years of irrelevance and PSU implodes when JoePa retires and the East becomes a Buckeye dominated institution with a west that is gruesome to get through? DO we re-jigger the whole damn thing for the sake of "competitive balance"?
Keep it simple and play some football. If you lose, then recruit better, coach better, and play better.
I checked this board out because I wanted to see if OSU fans felt the same way about this as UM fans. For probably the only time ever, we agree.
Exactly right. The hate needs time to fester and the build-up by quietly watching the other team all season long is key.
I'm sure you agree that State Penn is a joke. So there's 2 things.
but that's all.
You say "but sometimes you need to change to survive". When did we become the Mountain West, or the WAC? I thought this was the Big Ten. You're saying moving the game is manditory for the Big Ten's survival? It looks to me like a power conference being Greedy going after a payday that has an 18% chance of really happening. Did Ohio State put the Big Ten on life support by losing back to back MNC games? Really??
Done!
I am officially off the expansion band wagon. I loved the idea and the eventual addition of Nebraska, but the fact that it has screwed with the game makes me wish we had not expanded. Seriously, we will play Michigan twice???? WTF! We can split???
So, let me get this straight, we can go to AA and beat Michigan in October, then later be robbed of the joy of such a feat and completely forget that game ever happened if we lose in the championship game in December with the rose bowl on the line? that should not happen. We will be the only major, traditional rivalry in college football that can have a split in a season.
The rematch is the problem, I have absolutely no problem that Ohio St and Michigan will never play for the Big Ten Championship, technically, if you put them in the same division. We all know that if Michigan returns to form, that the OSU/UM game will still most likely decide the championship anyway. Penn St never has, and NE will unlikely be able to become a real bully in the league. That will always be us and the bad guys.
Watch this, then come back and comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
For the corporate monkey maybe. For me it's always been about the rivalry, in large part because of when it's been played I grew up rooting for Ohio State with my dad. His work took the family out of Akron when I was young & moved us to Vermont. Many years "The Game" was the only Buckeyes game we'd get. My younger brother grew up during the Cooper years. Since he knew it would crank us up & he didn't want to root for the team that "Was gonna lose anyway." he started rooting for the wolvereenies, he became a diehard fan. Every year, all season long my brother & I had to be polite to each other no matter how our teams were doing because of that end of November matchup. We would think up all kinds of verbal jabs, but no matter how clever they were, the reply was always "Wait til November.". Then on that day it all came out, because it was winner take all. For the year. That was it, no more chances. Winner basks in the glory, loser has to live with it for the year, The Whole Year!! Not ten months... not 49 weeks... 365 Days. And the reply becomes "Wait til next November.". We're older now & a country apart. I'm busy out west raising a family, he's back in Vt. growing a business. We don't talk to often. Maybe not all year, except "That Day in November.".
One shot, no rematch, that's what makes it "The Game" & that's the way it ought to stay!