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Offtopicland. This still isn't the place to discuss politics, religion, or hot-button social issues, however.

11W Etiquette: Being a Journalist Without Being an A**hole

MrChengsaw's picture
June 12, 2014 at 8:44am
134 Comments

First, let me say that like most of you, I'm a huge fan of the website and all things OSU.  Since stumbling across 11 Warriors some time ago, I've really come to appreciate the OSU-flavored infotainment you guys put forth--witty, often acerbic, typically accurate and relevant, I look forward to visiting every morning.

When I read Ramzy's recent piece on the questionable behavior of some fellow OSU fans, my initial reaction, like many of you, was to express my undying gratitude for finally putting these losers in their place.  But, after digesting things a bit, and I realize that this will put me in the minority here, but I can't help but feel compelled to express some of my own concerns in response to Ramzy's article.

Here me out: I'm not condoning what people like Jeff Haug etc. choose to do--whenever I come across that sort of behavior, it's definitely a face-palm moment for me, and much like Buck-I-Guy, Big Nut, and any number of other borderline manic OSU fans, I genuinely wish they'd stop embarrassing themselves, me, and the rest of Buckeye nation.  But, when I do cross paths with these types, do I go out of my way to shout them down or point out the sheer ridiculousness of what they do?  No, because then I'd be that guy with nothing better to do than to criticize the behavior of that guy with nothing better to do.  As misguided as their attempts to express their undying love for Ohio State may be, we have to remember that they are just that: totally misguided, but largely benign.  If you feel so compelled to pull Jeff Haug aside, buy him a beer and brainstorm more productive ways in which he can invest his fan-hood, by all means do so.  Or, you can publish an article that totally puts these guys on blast.

For the record, I'm going to draw a clear distinction between the misguided efforts of fans like Jeff and the straight-up a**hole-ish behavior of fans like Skid21 (as you point out).  College football recruiting has hit a frenetic level and the inevitable implosion will be terrible and brilliant.  It's so easy to get blinded by the stars.  No one's saying that you're not entitled to your opinion, much less that your dissenting opinion isn't welcomed on a public forum.  What I'm saying though, is that you need to remember that your degrading commentary is about someone's son, someone's big brother, someone's mentor, and someone's legacy.  These 16, 17, 18 year old kids are still just kids, regardless of the stars by their names.  And you may be thinking to yourself, "well, I'm just talking about them as football players."  Fair point, but you also have to remember that as 16, 17, 18 year old kids, they define themselves as football players until they come of an age to realize that life is so much bigger than the football field--perhaps something you should remind yourself of as well.

Again, I'm not saying that I don't find the behavior of some of our fellow fans to be embarrassing, ridiculous, and sometimes despicable.  A guy like Jeff, I can't claim to know him personally, but I'm sure he bleeds scarlet and gray just like the rest of us.  And yeah, every time he tweets at a recruit, it's totally cringe-inducing, but if he feels like he's doing anything and everything he can to help out with OSU's recruiting efforts, who are we to tell him otherwise?  After all, he's not a paid journalist covering recruiting for a credentialed media organization that gets millions of hits a week during the offseason.  But Ramzy, you are.

I'm not entirely sure what your objective was by publishing that article.  But if it was to publicly shame a fellow Buckeye into submission, then well, job well done.

DMcDougal24's picture

I thought something similar as I read the article yesterday.. Not defending his conduct but I just felt uncomfortable that his name was included in the article. He isn't hidden behind some random name like the others. He can't just delete his Twitter and any trace of him is gone

+6 HS
mh277907's picture

It wasn't Ramzy who created this guy's account, made his name viewable for the free world and tweeted recruits, though. Social media has consequences.

buckeyebobcat

+27 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

I completely agree.  The advent of the internet and social media has been wonderful and terrible.  More than ever, we have the ability to immediately and irrevocably say whatever we want, to whomever we want forever and ever.  I'm not disagreeing with the content of Ramzy's message, I'm disagreeing with the way in which the message was sent.  Just smacks of irresponsible journalism.  Ostensibly, he gets paid to provide the audience with insightful content that may or may not have to do with OSU football.  Loosely framing an article on appropriate etiquette to single out individuals' online conduct just struck me as a bit mean-spirited, verging on unprofessional.  If you wanna put michigan ilk on blast, that'll always be gravy with me.  But ultimately, Ramzy used his position as a journalist to publicly shame fellow Buckeyes, and that just seems wrong to me.  #SameTeam

Baroclinicity's picture

As I stated below, whether Ramzy gets paid or not is really none of your business.  YOU don't pay anything and get free content, yet you feel you have the right to draw up the guidelines on which the staff can police their site.  It's not your work, nor is it your investment.

Who put you in charge?

When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

+3 HS
Bolt's picture

I don't think he's saying he should be in charge or things should be a certain way...he was just expressing how it struck him personally. I felt a twinge of what he's talking about but not enough to make me disagree with Ramzy and the article in any way, lol.

+4 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

I feel like you're missing my point somewhere, but refer to Bolt's concise and accurate summary below.  Sweet jeezus, I never said I was in charge, claimed to want to be, or anything nearly so ridiculous.  I very simply disagree with the manner in which Ramzy publicly and irrevocably shamed Jeff in his article.  Just like you are very simply disagreeing with me on that.  If you have an issue with the title of my forum post, it was an attempt at rhetorical parallelism.  

+4 HS
BME_Buckeye's picture

I put him in charge damn it! Lol.....

Look closely, because the closer you think you are, the less you will actually see.

 

+1 HS
Jason Priestas's picture

I don't think you're absolved of all sins just because you're a fellow Buckeye fan. Is a Marine gunnery sergeant in the wrong for dressing down a boot lance corporal in front of his peers if he steps out of line? After all, they're all Marines.

In fact, I'd argue the opposite. When members of a community police each other, it makes the community better.

vitaminB's picture

Jason, there is an old adage in the Corps, Praise in public, correct in private.

+4 HS
Jason Priestas's picture

At the squad level, yes. At the staff NCO level? I'm not sure it's followed that often.

vitaminB's picture

I'll continue to praise you in public, Jason.  You do good work.

+5 HS
Jason Priestas's picture

Thanks. Are you in the FMF?

vitaminB's picture

I switched over to the Army a few years back when I got commissioned, but yeah I was with 1st MarDiv

+1 HS
SOF_Buckeye's picture

Whether it's followed that often or not, it's the correct way to conduct business. Regardless, the individual referred to is not on 'staff'. It would have been just as effective if the name had been covered/removed. I enjoyed the article actually, but the one thing that struck me was the individuals actual name being displayed. Personally, I don't tweet at recruits (or anyone else for that matter), and find it odd those who do; and those who also get so emotionally wrapped up in a 16-18 y/o's decision making process. 

"The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender." Woody Hayes

+2 HS
I_Run_The_Dave's picture

I think this situation is more like a private calling out his NCO for stepping out of line.  My buddy Brian back in the Army had a bad habit of doing this...  even though he was right most of the time, you never ever ever call out an NCO that way.  There are proper channels for that sort of thing that ought to be followed.

In this case, I don't know what the proper channel is, but a rant in a forum post may not be it.  Maybe some kind of PM to Ramzy would have been better?  I'd say the OP in this thread is just as guilty as Ramzy, potentially moreso.

1967Buck's picture

If there was no rules to follow, this Site would fall into darkness. 

+3 HS
BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

It was a personal attack on this person. He could have easily made they article about Michigan fans, or SEC fans....there are thousands of tweets daily doing the same thing. He choose to go against a Buckeye!!!!

Jeff Haug

-4 HS
DMcDougal24's picture

I agree. I just would have preferred that his name was removed from the screencaps. If I'm in the minority it's okay, I just felt bad that a moment of poor judgment will have such devastating consequences for him whereas others are able to escape just by deleting their Twitter and are able to remain anonymous. 

+6 HS
Citrus's picture

My twitter handle is my name. I have it connected to my profile here. I do it because I am OK with being accountable for my opinions. I decided to put my name out there. Jeff decided to put his name out there. He also decided that the world needed to know his opinion. It is 100% on Jeff that he is a douche. He chose for his name to be associated with opinions that he spewed into the world. If someone praised those comments he would be elated. The other side of the coin is what happened yesterday. 

+10 HS
DMcDougal24's picture

I can't argue with that.. Upvote for you. I do the same with my Twitter profile and my name here on this site. My Twitter profile is linked as well. I've got opinions and I realize that when I hit submit it has my name right next to them (assuming I take time to think). I realize that if I make a boneheaded decision I face the consequences. It's just unfortunate to see it happen to someone and for their name to be permanently scarred where others who remain anonymous are able to walk away freely.

+3 HS
Optimistic Buckeye Pessimist's picture

There are always good ways and bad ways to accomplish goals, and rarely do you get a perfect mark.  I do think the article was over the top in about every way.  However, I think the simple and soft reminders weren't working and they decided to act fast and do something that would leave a mark.  In the process they dragged a few people down, call them casualties of war, sacrifices for the greater good.  

I think it should have been emphasized that you don't have to be an asshole period.  Now that some of these guys were dragged through the mud, its the coolest thing since jorts to be an asshole to them.  As I said in a post on that thread yesterday, two wrongs don't make a right.  After all, one of the ultimate rules we live by on this site is "Don't be a jerk" and yet so many people were crossing that line with comments to and/or about Skid.  And the worst part of all, they get upvotes for it because its now the cool thing to do.... to be an asshole to an asshole.  

 

+6 HS
Buckeyevstheworld's picture

 

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

+7 HS
buckeyedexter's picture

My personal rule is don't post/tweet something you wouldn't say to that person face to face.

+26 HS
RedStorm45's picture

Pretty sure this would eliminate 95% of Twitter then lol but I agree.

+6 HS
Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

Pretty sure this would eliminate 95% of Twitter then lol but I agree.

Feature. Not a bug.

+2 HS
BroJim's picture

Have you seen this Louis C.K. bit, pretty spot on. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c&feature=kp

I season my simple food with hunger

+1 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Here is the thing, Ramzy was an "asshole" to mostly anonymous users who choose to post asshole-ish things about and to high school kids.

I think the fact that we're having a discussion about being an asshole to an asshole basically shows that Ramzy's article missed the mark.

We choose to be on this site. Assholes choose to be a part of this site, and assholes choose to tweet ridiculous things. Ramzy is defending the high school kids involved in the process. I think a lot of us forget what it is like to be a 16-17 year old kid, and few know the process they are going through to make a life altering decision with national attention on them.

It isn't about being assholes to an asshole. Don't be an asshole to recruits, who are kids, and just trying to make the best decision for their own future. 

If people are hacked off about  being called out by Ramzy, imagine how a high school kid feels to be anonymously assailed on the internet for only doing their best.

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+20 HS
Optimistic Buckeye Pessimist's picture

I think the fact that we're having a discussion about being an asshole to an asshole basically shows that Ramzy's article missed the mark.

Disagree.  I think everyone got that point, at least those who weren't clear in it before the article.  Loud and clear.  What I think missed the mark was that it showed that its OK that 

Ramzy was an "asshole" to mostly anonymous users who choose to post asshole-ish things about and to high school kids. 

That's where I think this discussion stems from.  The OP is suggesting that maybe Ramzy went too far.  I think he did, but I think it was probably a calculated, necessary evil.  My main concern is that now we have people on the site who think it's cool or OK to be a jerk/asshole to others.  Case and point can be found above, where there are several posts, mine included, that are attempting to have a discussion about this and yet received negative votes.  This is in stark contrast to the poster who felt the need to come onto this thread and post about how little they care about this topic with the .gif of an "eye roll," and garnered positive votes.   Since when, on this site, do we as a community discourage discussion of something and reward those who are essentially entering the forum to give those trying to have a discussion an internet facepalm?

+7 HS
ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

Here is the thing, Ramzy was an "asshole" to mostly anonymous users who choose to post asshole-ish things about and to high school kids.

But here's the thing... sometimes you have to speak their language to get them to understand... so if Ramzy was being 'assholish' to these guys, then hopefully they would see that it's not so wonderful to be on the receiving end.

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

+2 HS
faux_maestro's picture

but if he feels like he's doing anything and everything he can to help out with OSU's recruiting efforts, who are we to tell him otherwise

I believe the NCAA has something to say about fans tweeting recruits. 

By the way, every time a fan tweets at a recruit that fan is committing an NCAA violation.

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2013/12/31136/if-youre-a-college-football-fan-who-tweets-at-recruits-youre-committing-an-ncaa-violat

Inní mér syngur vitleysingur

+2 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the NCAA has about zero credibility when it comes to its ability to enforce its own policies nowadays, much less to hold universities accountable for what their fan bases tweet at recruits.  I won't presume to speak for Ramzy, but I don't think his message to Jeff was so much "please stop committing NCAA violations" as much as it was "please stop being an asshole."

+3 HS
faux_maestro's picture

I believe that both "stop committing NCAA violations" and "stop being an asshole" were the message to Jeff considering he mentioned both.

Inní mér syngur vitleysingur

+3 HS
Buckeye Knight's picture

I think the article was great.  Sometimes you have to be firm with some people to get through to them.  Anyone with kids surely understands this and having to use the "Dad voice".  There seems to be a lack of respect in society that just didn't seem to be there years ago, not to this degree.  I don't know if the anonymous internet interactions started it then it spilled into "real life" or vice versa.  I also can't imagine some of these people walking up to some of these recruits, who at 16-18 years old can dwarf most of the general population, and shouting in their face the same things that they type to them.

+10 HS
1967Buck's picture

Well said Buckeye Knight. Peace.

+1 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Really?  So, as a dad, you publicly berate your children when they act bad?  This guy didn't commit a felony. A little perspective please. Having his name publicly and negatively placed within an article is a little much, particularly when it's a crime of ignorance. 

-8 HS
UrbzRenewal's picture

IMO you shouldn't be tweeting at teenage boys in general. That's not exactly ignorance, it's creepy.

+7 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

It's creepy?  What are you?  Eight?  Give me a break.  The recruits are on twitter for the attention.  I saw nothing inappropriate with the Tweet.  Would I do it?  No.  But, too many people on this site want to define right and wrong for the masses.

-2 HS
UrbzRenewal's picture

Grown men tweeting at underage boys (15, 16, 17 year olds)? That's creepy and inappropriate. Who cares if kids pander for attention? It doesn't mean you should EVER contact them via internet or otherwise. It's pretty straightforward imo.

+4 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

It's a public forum. It's not a private message. If you feel it's creepy fine. That's your opinion.  Don't tweet them. I choose to not tweet them because I have no interest in it and don't know them.  If and when my son is in their place, I would have no problem with him receiving a harmless tweet from a fan of a team recruiting him. As stated by the OP, who are you to say?

-3 HS
buckeyedude's picture

Just curious, Jax: What if your 17 year old son was a football player that was rated a 2* or 3* by Scout, ESPN, Rivals, etc., and he just received an offer to a B1G school and then immediately started receiving Tweets and e-mails from fan(s) of that school telling him he sucked, isn't worthy of his offer, etc.? Would you have no problem with that?

These recruits, as we all know, sometimes read these websites, and I think it is bad manners/decorum to be so negative on a day when they probably feel like they just won the lottery with an offer to go to school and play football for Ohio State.

I think Ramzy's article was needed and I think it worked, because we are discussing it, are we not?

 

 

+1 HS
AndyVance's picture

Jax, I can recall with clarity that Dad paddled my ass more than once in a public place when I was younger. Publicly berate? Perhaps not, but we were definitely disciplined when we needed it, be that in public or not.

+5 HS
Earle's picture

Yeah, and look how you turned out, on an internet board in the middle of the work day....Oh, wait, forget I said anything.

+7 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Just because "they used to do it and I turned out fine" doesn't mean it's OK.  You may have turned out despite it, not because of it.  But that's really off topic.  The point is the punishment doesn't fit the crime.  We can agree to disagree but I expect more from someone who is a professional.   My opinion only (obviously).

-3 HS
AndyVance's picture

Fair enough; I respect your opinion on the matter.

+3 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Haha!  And for those interested, AndyVance and JaxBuckeye will soon be releasing, "How to have completely opposite views but not be an asshole," available in both hardbound and cassette.

+4 HS
Groveport Heisman's picture

The man wasnt trying to pummel Jeff into submission. I  would have felt blessed if he mentioned my name as being a asshole if  it was for the betterment of Buckeye Nation. Lot of people have been getting out of hand with not only following and tweeting at recruits but trashing them when things dont go the way they want. If we can walk away with rosey colored cheeks and a serious life lesson learned I see no harm or malice in that. Sometimes if you want to play the big boy game you have to wear your big boy pants.

Mark my words..I don't need acceptance. I'm catching interceptions on you innocent pedestrians.

+1 HS
sharks's picture

I don't mind the author calling out the Twitter user, because that whole concept is creepy, but it bothers me that he chose to harangue the 11W user to the degree he did.  The possibility that anyone (including the players and parents themselves) can come here read posts and have their feelings hurt by some user's opinion matters not one whit to me, provided the opinion doesn't include racist, sexist, or ad hominem attacks.  It's all in the game, yo.

All internet forums have the goal of 100% thoughtful discourse in mind, but the reality is that means different things to different people.  While I really hate the ability to anonymously downvote posts, it is a way that the community moderates something we as a whole find out of bounds.  That particular poster didn't submit anything offensive (that I'm aware of) past questioning whether the number of stars or other offers a recruit has/had was qualified the guy for a scholarship.

The fact that different posters have wildly different takes that they share are what make the forum posts interesting.  Very rarely (if ever) have I seen personal attacks on recruits here, but the personal attack on the user yesterday was hypocritical and in pretty bad form.

The postgame show is brought to you by... Christ, I can't find it. The hell with it...

+5 HS
Buckeye Knight's picture

I agree with the fact that getting on a forum and stating your opinion is very different from going on someone's Twitter and blasting them.  I would just say that we need to keep in mind that some recruits, especially those who have committed to OSU, probably do read this site and the articles/threads about themselves.  It might also be their first glimpse of what Buckeye fans are all about.

+5 HS
Optimistic Buckeye Pessimist's picture

I would just say that we need to keep in mind that some recruits, especially those who have committed to OSU, probably do read this site and the articles/threads about themselves.

I think that this should extend beyond just recruits.  I think of current players.  Some times I come on here after a game and I see Amir Williams....., LSJr....., Armani Reeves......  I cringe at reading some of that stuff as sometimes posters lose sight of the the exact point we're making with recruits.  Just as was pointed out in the article, there's a time and a place for stating your opinion.  There's also a manner by which you can do it.  So next time one of our players, who has given us their blood, sweat, tears, maximal effort, and a reason to cheer for OSU, makes a mistake, can we just think about this whole message about recruits and apply it to them?

+7 HS
BuckNutzGasMan's picture

I agree. Let's put our names on downvotes! :-)

+5 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Completely agree.  I rarely downvote, but when I do I am certainly able to explain to the poster why I did.  On the positive side, I would love for posters to know that I agree with them without having to type it out (this post, case in point).  Finally, it is extremely frustrating when I post something that, while it may be in the minority, I am fully prepared to support.  But, instead of healthy debate, I simply receive an avalanche of downvotes.  I think those would cease (to a degree) if people had their name attached.

+1 HS
Earle's picture

I believe we are going to set some sort of two-day record for the use of a certain pejorative term.

+9 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

I think the article was intentionally written to be aggressive. If you put the words into a speech, I'd assume the tone to be more light-hearted than condescending. I think Ramzy did a fine job at getting his point across while having a little fun with it. 

+6 HS
Baroclinicity's picture

 After all, he's not a paid journalist covering recruiting for a credentialed media organization that gets millions of hits a week during the offseason.  But Ramzy, you are.

Irrelevant.  What difference does it make if Ramzy or anyone else on the staff of a free website gets paid?  The key here is that you are not paying for their services, and they have a right to preserve the integrity of their work in any way they feel they need, especially when they feel their community is getting out of line. 

The title of this article is a bit on the pretentious side. 

When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

+5 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Irrelevant.  What difference does it make if Ramzy or anyone else on the staff of a free website gets paid?  The key here is that you are not paying for their services, and they have a right to preserve the integrity of their work in any way they feel they need, especially when they feel their community is getting out of line. 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Priestas, Ramzy, DJ, all current staff, and former staff have put in tons of time and effort to make this site what it is. It is garnering national attention for the coverage and content they provide, recruits and their family often read the articles and peruse the site.

Some of the things said are cringe worthy, only hurts 11w and Ohio State's image and I'm quite comfortable with how Ramzy addressed it. 

 

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+5 HS
Baroclinicity's picture

Exactly.  And let's not forget that the staff doesn't make it a habit of calling out users by their names.  I can remember only one other time back when we were all in a frenzy about downvotes, and someone downvoted everyone on the page.  Thus, they were called out, and possibly banned if I remember correctly.

To me, this was their way of saying "Knock it off."  Not a big deal.

When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

+3 HS
Groveport Heisman's picture

I think the article hit its head on the nail. It has people talking about it and in return people are going to think more before they react. Of course Ramzy is old school and the younger generation that follows recruits on twitter are going to feel a little ass hurt. Its ok its all for a good cause.

Mark my words..I don't need acceptance. I'm catching interceptions on you innocent pedestrians.

+1 HS
NW Buckeye's picture

LMAO, Ramzy - old school.  Just wonder what that makes me!!!!

+2 HS
Groveport Heisman's picture

Maybe I could have worded it better and said he has more of a old school style. Straight to the point and very direct.

Mark my words..I don't need acceptance. I'm catching interceptions on you innocent pedestrians.

MrChengsaw's picture

Irrelevant.  What difference does it make if Ramzy or anyone else on the staff of a free website gets paid? 

 In the original article, Ramzy uses that as a justification to distinguish the conduct of a professional journalist (like Birm, in his example) to that of the common, misguided fan (like Jeff), so I'd argue that that makes it entirely relevant.  That's exactly my point too.  Us plebeians, we can sit here and troll, degrade, insult one another as much as we want (for the most part), because hell, we're Amurricans and that's within our rights to.  But, as a paid journalist covering recruiting for a credentialed media organization that gets millions of hits a week during the offseason, as Ramzy points out with his example of Birm, this affords them certain privileges and powers.  He's absolutely allowed to publish whatever he wants as a paid journalist covering recruiting for a credentialed media organization that gets millions of hits a week during the offseason--I'm not saying he's not.  But how is using your position as a professional journalist to publicly humiliate some misguided fan at all emblematic of the integrity of the work that you claim they feel the need to preserve?  Did Jeff somehow discredit their body of journalistic integrity with his nonsensical commentary?  No.  Bottom line: Jeff and all the other Jeffs out there, their behavior is embarrassing and problematic--but I guess I find the need for a professional journalist to publicly flame Jeff even more problematic, particularly when he's a fellow Buckeye.

I would like to reiterate that I'm drawing a clear distinction between the misguided commentary from fans like Jeff and the disgustingly dehumanizing commentary from fans like Skid21.  That I think we can all agree on, is just wrong.

+1 HS
RedStorm45's picture
+2 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

I'm not sure how from all this you've distilled that I'm "cool with Jeff" and compare what he does to what Birm does for a living.  I repeatedly refer to Jeff's commentary as embarrassing, problematic, face-palming moments.  Like many here, the Buckeye fan in me is thankful that his voluntary recruiting efforts have been temporarily suspended, thanks largely in part to Ramzy's article.  What I'm calling into question, however, is do the ends justify the means?

RedStorm45's picture

DOUBLE EDIT - I can't read good (pun intended).

Baroclinicity's picture

My beef is the whole "professional journalist" label and this random set of standards you think they should adhere to.  I don't know if that's the right label or not, but they report the facts with integrity in mind as best they can which would fulfill that obligation of being a journalist. 

But I don't see Jason & co. as "journalists" despite the fact we all swoon over Ramzy pieces, DJ's wit, Ross' insight etc.  I see them as a bunch of cool dudes who have built a great resource for all things Buckeyes and are huge Buckeye fans.  Let's stop assigning them labels that may or may not fit and just let it be.  They don't have to adhere to the standards you have set by calling them credentialed journalists.

When you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

+3 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

I completely agree with you, and I think we perceive 11 Warriors similarly.  However, in my defense, I wasn't the one who originally coined this label of professional journalism--Ramzy did in his article as a distinction between what they do and what common fans do.  I didn't set them on this pedestal--like any good argument, I simply pointed out their own self-label.  

vitaminB's picture

I see them as a bunch of cool dudes

+2 HS
Nutty's picture

I think you may have gone a little overboard Jeff...I mean MrChengsaw. Yes Skid was an asshole but disgustingly dehumanizing? You have to be kidding me.

+1 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

My bad, I don't mean to single Skid out here.  In all honesty, I've barely read any of his posts, simply what was referred to in Ramzy's original article (that in and of itself says something about how some people may be unwittingly victimized/villainized here).  But, my point remains that there is plenty of disgusting commentary that goes on a recruit chooses a different school, or as someone else pointed out, even when one of our current stars has a bad day.

+1 HS
Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

Agreed. Outside of being used for teh funnah by Ramzy, I wouldn't go so far as to use 'asshole' to describe Skid's behavior yesterday. At the very worst he was being a bonehead. Someone else use used 'tone deaf' which is also a fair summation.

+1 HS
BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

Hey I made some mistakes being new to twitter. I'm a huge Buckeye fan and the recruiting process got the best of me. The week before this article was published I started getting tweets from random people telling me to quit, which I did. I found out later one of the people cyber-bulling me after I asked them nicely to stop was 11 Warriors and Men of Scrarlet and Gray  staff member CADE JETLAND. I was surprised that a Buckeye internet staff member had enough time to waste on me. He and I went on and on one afternoon, which is why this article was written and used my name directly. It's pretty bush league to single out anyone for personal reasons no matter what the reason. I admit maybe I was an ass but there are thousands of questionable tweets daily. Ramzy could have easily made this article about um fans they do it daily...just check Chris Clark or Miles Boykins twitter page. He wanted to show is lack of professionalism as a journalist. There is no way he getting paid to write for this 11 Warriors. Call me all you want but this was an asshole move by Ramzy himself. I served to tours in Iraq and I will not be walked on by a bush league beat writer. Like I said before I was wrong, and recently deleted my twitter account and I have found better things to do with my life. I love being a Buckeye and hope this explains my side of the story. I'm sure Ramzy is going to come out with some big article about how I'm the only asshole in Buckeyeland.. It just surprises my that 11 Warriors would stoop so low while representing THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY!!!!

Jeff Haug

-3 HS
osu07asu10's picture

here is no way he getting paid to write for this 11 Warriors. Call me all you want but this was an asshole move by Ramzy himself. I served to tours in Iraq and I will not be walked on by a bush league beat writer. 

Played the veteran card on top of calling out Ramzy,...

 

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

Theres three sides to every story. This guy could have easily wrote an article on asshole UM fans, but he decided to call me out because of a twitter fight between another staff member. Why do you think he called me out by full name. There are thousands of tweets daily he could have chosen, but instead he called me out because he has access to the 11 warriors forum. Like we say in the Army a DELTA BRAVO move!

Jeff Haug

osu07asu10's picture

Yes, you've repeated this quite a few times over and again on this forum which proves that you don't really get it.

Your actions in the first place the reason you ended up in the article. Don't put yourself in those situations. Also, the fact that you are a veteran truthfully has no bearing on how you exist on social media.

 

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+1 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

There are plenty of ways to be an @sshole. Look, stupid is as stupid does. There are hateful, ignorant, disgusting underbellies in each fanbase. The fans on each side of the OSU and *ichigan rivalry that I've seen hurl beer bottles and hate infused, curse filled "cheers" and jeers are just such idiots. 

Honestly, most of the sports experience has turned into one which it is difficult to even enjoy sometimes. My wife recently asked me when we would take our 5 year old to her first OSU game. I said that I didn't know, because I am fearful for what she may hear and see. So we took her to a Vandy game b/c well, people just aren't that crazy about football there.

I know this may be unpopular, but really, let's keep things in perspective. The thrust of Ramzy's article, and I may be off, was to point out that we should let these kids decide where they want to go to school without belittling their choices, and then becoming upset when some 17 year old kid, who is only a 3 star, fulfills his dream of becoming a Buckeye. My takeaway was this - Keep EVERYTHING in perspective. College football is supposed to be entertainment, not life and death. It should be a joy, not a pain. I bleed Scarlet and Gray as much as anyone, but these are, whether we like it or not, young men, even kids some might say. Let's allow them to enjoy the process without hurling racial epithets or hateful profanity their way simply because we CAN.

I love my Buckeyes, but boy, do I despise our underbelly.
 

"I can accept failure, but I cannot accept not trying." - W.W. Hayes

+8 HS
Hovenaut's picture

Given the circumstances, with all the hoo-rah surrounding the recruiting, I agree that something needed to be said.

Whether or not what was posted was right/wrong/professional/unprofessional...who am I to say?

Let's be supportive of what we have here. At the end of the day, we're Buckeyes (or other, unfortunate schools...)

"Success...it's what you do with what you got" - Woody Hayes

+2 HS
Mortc15's picture

Ramzy had to act asshole-ish to get his point across about how not to act. Had no problem with it and if you're going to comment things and leave your profiles open to the public, there are much worse people that could come across your info than Ramzy or most users of 11W. 

Buck-I4Life

+6 HS
RedStorm45's picture

if he feels like he's doing anything and everything he can to help out with OSU's recruiting efforts

That's not his job.  Ohio State has an entire football staff whose job is either largely (or in some cases ONLY) to recruit the talent they want to play on the team.  A recruit is interacting with coaching staffs and current players.  Fans are merely white noise on the fringe in their decision making process.

Secondly, if he doesn't want to get called out, make your tweets PRIVATE.  This is the internet.  (Herm Edwards voice) HELLO.  (and also...DON'T PRESS SEND) You write something in public domain for EVERYONE to see, guess what, people might dig it up and post it or write about it.  If you don't want it to happen, don't tweet or lock your account to the public.

Based on the comments (239 and counting), I think it was a highly successful article that (hopefully) has spread the word about not being an asshole-ish and creepy fanbase.

+4 HS
Buckeytrips's picture

Do you think UFM would have worded it any differently? NO. if it hits a nerves with some maybe you need to take a look in the mirror. I sucks to get called out but if it is needed then so be it.

+4 HS
Run_Fido_Run's picture

But, when I do cross paths with these types, do I go out of my way to shout them down or point out the sheer ridiculousness of what they do?  

That analogy isn't really apples-to-apples. Sure, when I am reading one of Ramzy's fine articles, it feels like - even though the blog is a PUBLIC forum of communication - that it's a one-on-one "conversation" between Ramzy and me. In reality, though, Ramzy is making a public statement/argument. In that format, it's still important to be as civil as reasonably appropriate, but not as delicate as we'd be in direct face-to-face social interactions. Oftentimes, writers might have to criticize public figures and/or other parties relevant to a story in pretty brutal ways, but hopefully the social value of voicing concerns is more important than the "target's" feelings.

There was a time - stereotypically, maybe we're talking about the 1950s - when people who were part of "good society," for better or for worse, tended to be more likely to "call out" (publicly castigate) those who were being a-holes (or hussies, or whatever). These days, we're probably more live-and-let-live about social graces. So, maybe a bolder approach via blogs and other "social media" are necessary to get a message across to our fan base?

And I don't really see this as realistic and/or impactful:

. . . pull Jeff Haug aside, buy him a beer and brainstorm more productive ways in which he can invest his fan-hood . . .

+1 HS
Jason Priestas's picture

Nice try, Jeff Haug.

ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

=) Great minds think alike.

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

+2 HS
BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

Jason ...what???

Jeff Haug

-4 HS
Citrus's picture

I see a distinction but it is contra to the way the post author sees things. I think Jeff's conduct was different than Skid's and much worse. 
Skid wasn't trying to attack anybody. He  had an opinion about this recruiting class. That opinion wasn't completely unreasonable either. I disagree with his opinion, and maybe he could've expressed it in another forum, but I don't think it was outrageous. Jeff on the other hand is tweeting kids. That is far worse. Sure a recruit may have (and probably did) read what Skid wrote, but that obviously wasn't Skid's intention. Whereas, Jeff intends for kids to read his garbage. 

Also PSA: If you post things PUBLICLY the PUBLIC might react to it. Duh! 

+4 HS
Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

Every week I start with a topic and then decide how to communicate its point in the most efficacious and entertaining way. For tweeting at recruits I landed on bloodless shaming.

I knew what would happen with Jeff and the twitter people (less concerned about Skid21, a generally solid and anonymous 11W poster) and that gave me pause. Considered not running the piece up until that morning. Deciding factors to run it: Efficacious, bloodless. It held the right tone. "Asshole" took a lot of thought. Replaced all of the assholes with other/tamer terms and it lost that tone.

I don't take my platform or reach lightly. Soon Jason will run the 11W confessional piece and you'll learn about how many articles I write that I decide not to run.

MrChengsaw's picture

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Ramzy.  It was not my intention to belittle the thought process that goes behind your work.  As I said originally, I'm generally a huge fan of 11 Warriors' work, particularly when it comes to rhetoric.  I look forward to reading Jason's upcoming article and gaining valuable insight into what you guys do.

Earle's picture

The Confessional is one of the few redeeming elements of what is an otherwise interminable offseason.  Unless Jason has something different in mind this time around, it is less an article than a forum for sharing the deepest, darkest secrets of your Buckeye fandom without fear of recrimination.  If prior incarnations are any indication, it should be very entertaining, enlightening, and occasionally disturbing.

+3 HS
gumtape's picture

I don't take my platform or reach lightly. Soon Jason will run the 11W confessional piece and you'll learn about how many articles I write that I decide not to run.

Premium lounge members have full access to unpublished articles. I personally enjoyed the one about Urban Meyer spending his waking hours trying to destroy Florida football.

just another psycho, irrational, delusional Ohio St fan

+8 HS
allinosu's picture

I went back a few weeks to a Hilliard article here when he was making his 4523rd visit to us and Bassdropper caught hell for calling out Victorybell45 for tweeting Justin that he should commit that particular trip. You guys since pulled his comments. It would appear you had plenty to chose from. 

+3 HS
allinosu's picture

OMG, don't do it, nobody will be left. I can feel Jeremy's keyboard fighting him all the time to stop him from me getting "Birmed". 

1967Buck's picture

You are right  Ramzy. Last year, the year before, and the year before that, 11W had to say there peace on how we should act on this site. I think some just forget to read the Commenting Policy. Maybe they need to and maybe they should. Sometimes a Man needs to do whats right, when others says its wrong. Peace bro.

+1 HS
BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

It's all good. It was a personal attack on Jeff Haug or your not a Buckeye fan. You choose to attack a fellow Buckeye fan creepy or not. I realize I've made mistakes but there are thousands of tweets out there to choose from but you choose mine. You could have easily made this article about a um fan or SEC fan but you choose to attack fellow Buckeyes. Your article would have been a bigger hit if you would have choosen to make fun of other fans. You seem to me like a cyber bully like 11 warrior staff member Cade Jetland and good luck sir.

Jeff Haug

-1 HS
BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

Hey man... Go Buckeyes!!!

Jeff Haug

ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

I enjoyed the hell out of that article.  It made my asshole...err me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

There's no need to be tweeting recruits.  Jeff Haug may have thought that he was doing a good thing, and some of the things he said didn't seem assholish...but come on, man, find better things to do with your life.  Don't try to tell recruits what to do "like OMG come to OSU!!!  #BuckeyeNation #SECcheats #TTUNsucks", don't tweet the latest TTUN commit "Yeah commit there, you're not good enough to be a Buckeye #YouSuck #TTUNSucks #0-4vsOSU #0-5IfYouRedshirt", and don't tweet a recruit that considered OSU but ultimately chose otherwise "That's OK, we didn't want your fat ass anyway, hope that $500 $EC handshake is worth it #cheaters #greedy #HopeSabanDoesntMedicalHardshipYou".  These kinds of things are embarrassing, and if you do it, then you deserve to be called out for it.

Skid stated an opinion.  Maybe the commitment article isn't the best place to put it.  I don't know.  There's no rule that says you have to love every single commitment.  I think Urban obviously sees talent there or he wouldn't have offered, and star ratings aren't everything...that's just my take, and Skid has the right to disagree with that.

Class of 2010.

+7 HS
BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

It was a personal attack on me...read my explanation above....Bush league for sure while using the 11 Wariors platform!!!

Jeff Haug

-2 HS
buckguyfan1's picture

These threads are making me thirsty.

+1 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

would you like a pretzel?

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+1 HS
Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

Pickled eggs are a good thirst quencher.

rekrul's picture

Someone crack a window, there is a plethora of "asshole" in hurr.

Out Work, Out Think, Out Play!!!

+1 HS
UrbzRenewal's picture

If you put yourself and your actions in the public eye, you should/can/will be held accountable for them. That's why I try to keep my social media as clean as possible, I don't want future recruiters (or journalists) to frown on something I've said if they start sifting through things. 

I think the idea that these threads/comments continue to pop up proves the point that something needed to be said about the topic (and people should be held accountable)-->it's already out of hand. It's not like there's any sort of enforcement agency that can say "hey dude, stop being an asshole and tweeting at that underage kid that you've never met". Journalism and/or public shaming is pretty much the only thing that can do the trick.

The topic sucks, but it had to be said.

+4 HS
ptim45's picture

Does anyone think that these guys (the assholes) are Michigan, Penn. St. fans or some other rival base. Guys who just want to stir up crap or somehow think they can influence recruiting.

UrbzRenewal's picture

I mean those people might exist, but surprisingly the majority of fans that make fanbases look bad are (unfortunately) real fans that think they can make a difference in the recruiting efforts of their team. Every fanbase has them (here's looking at you especially, Tennessee).

+3 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

as much as I think all UM and PSU fans are assholes, I don't think these are their assholes. I think they are our assholes, unfortunately!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+2 HS
buckguyfan1's picture

Al Gore helped create a ...

 

+1 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

and this

 

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+3 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

 But, he's super cereal!

 

"I can accept failure, but I cannot accept not trying." - W.W. Hayes

Squirrel Master's picture

I got the feeling that Ramzy was illustrating the differing levels of "when fans keeping it real goes wrong". I didn't get the idea that he was lumping Skid21 into the same category as Jeff or other fans who just don't get it. I certainly don't think Skid is like the others at all. He had a valid point that we all think every now and then: why does a top 5 national program (buckeyes) struggle to pull recruits away from schools that aren't even in the same class (i.e. the PSU recent recruits). I total got that and I do agree, I just thought there was a better place and time for it. Doesn't mean I think he is an A-hole for his opinion, just for his tact. BTW, it didn't help attacking a site wide desire to GIF everything. you just don't mess with the GIF!

but I must point out that in calling fringe fans who "think they are helping the program with their tweets" all Assholes, doesn't mean he is saying they are complete assholes in life. Just assholes in their tactics as a fan. I will openly admit I'm an asshole in many ways, doesn't mean I'm a horrible person. I just have assholish qualities when it comes to certain stuff (i.e. driving behind assholes who can't drive, I am a huge asshole then).

See,

 

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+3 HS
osu07asu10's picture

Ok, I think it is time to call it off. We all have opinions and they've all been conveyed. As a community we'll do our best to be civil to all....

 

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+1 HS
allinosu's picture

It won't stop. When they say  "Every fan base tweets to recruits. Recruits point out in interviews how fans support from certain teams is impressive, so I don't see any negatives in tweeting recruits." All they need is one recruit to be kind to a fan base and it's justified and they convince themselves they can make a difference without risk. Most of the time they are probably right but why risk it?

+1 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

I'm sure that I'm in the minority, but I thought the article was terrible and unprofessional. In fact, it was downright sophomoric. But, even journalists are human. What sounds like a great idea might not ultimately be that in the end.  Point was delivered, whether it was on target or not. Moving on. 

-7 HS
UrbzRenewal's picture

Just wondering, how was it sophomoric? It's obviously a legitimate topic of conversation.

+1 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

Calling people out by name and publicly shaming them is both immature and unprofessional.  I was giving MY opinion.

-3 HS
UrbzRenewal's picture

So he wasn't supposed to give specific examples? What about the case of Charles Waugh? We call out individuals all of the time in articles; I don't see anything wrong with what Ramzy wrote or the examples he made. If you don't want to get called out for being a creep/asshole, don't be one in the public domain. Idk but I think that's pretty simple.

+4 HS
osu07asu10's picture

I don't see anything wrong with what Ramzy wrote or the examples he made. If you don't want to get called out for being a creep/asshole, don't be one in the public domain. 

 

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+2 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

I don't know the specifics but what did Charles Waugh do ?  Was he like a sex offender who took a picture with buckeye recruits?  Being a father I certainly don't support sex offenders but I don't know what that guy actually did that was wrong. 

DMcDougal24's picture

Waugh (aka @BDubsTriviaGuru) sent out "inspirational" tweets/messages to recruits/players/coaches every morning. He would also contact said persons and ask them to meet on campus. His demise came when a photograph was posted of he, Mike Heuerman( I think), Joey Bosa, and Alex Anzalone. I think he had some interaction with Lewis Neal as well(former OSU commit, decommitted and went to LSU). While I think it was overstated, this incident partially led to decommits of Anzalone and Neal. So when it came out that he had some dirty laundry (sex offender) it became a black eye for OSU, especially after comments from Alex Anzalone's father about OSU's inability to adequately supervise players/recruits. 

BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

It was a personal attack on me because myself and staff member Cade Jetland got in to a tweeting match the week before. Ramzy decided it was his duty to call me out to the expense of the 11 Warriors platform. I explian in more detail above.

Jeff Haug

-2 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

One final point. Well done MrChengsaw. You got your point across in a tasteful way. Exactly how it should be done. 

+2 HS
AndyVance's picture

Three things:

1. I am amused that a society that has taken a zero-tolerance, public-shaming approach to so many topics/subjects is now concerned that a brilliant writer shamed what by all accounts appeared to be a blight on our entire community for doing something really dumb, but ultimately harmless. Jeff may feel bad and may even get made fun of, but it is highly unlikely that anything really bad is going to happen to him as a result of Ramzy's piece.

2. Shaming anonymous posters on a website who hide by the cloak of internet anonymity should be done far more often - my hat's off to the few others on here not afraid to stick their own necks out with their opinions, but most do not (and that's okay). As Jason said above, as iron sharpens iron, a self-policing community only gets better.

3.Let's all take a moment to understand the difference between news reporting and editorial. Many here who seem offended by Ramzy's article are acting like Kyle wrote a story with quotes from Urban Meyer about why Jeff and Skid are assholes, which is not the case. That would probably count as being unprofessional; an op-ed, on the other hand, is designed to do exactly what Ramzy did: state the author's opinion as persuasively as possible. Which, as we can all agree, Ramzy's piece did in spades and then some. My first gig at a big-time publication was as an opinion columnist, and I used to joke that they paid me to write about "whatever pissed me off that week," and there was a grain of truth in that joke. My hat's off to Ramzy for having the stones to write the piece, and to Jason for running it.

+13 HS
MrChengsaw's picture

Jeff may feel bad and may even get made fun of, but it is highly unlikely that anything really bad is going to happen to him as a result of Ramzy's piece.

Just as fans like Jeff, Skid, etc. shouldn't assume that the targets of their commentary would be receptive, I don't think that's a safe assumption for you to make, however unlikely.  I don't wish to be melodramatic, but as a former middle school teacher that has seen his share of traumatic cyber bullying, making those sorts of assumptions are rarely worth the price.  I get what you're saying, but still, I'm not sure I'd want to be the person making that assumption and dealing with the potential fallout.  

-1 HS
AndyVance's picture

You make a fair point, and I'll admit that I actually thought about that sentence quite a bit before posting; originally, in fact, I was going to say that nothing bad was going to happen to him, and then I thought to myself that there is in fact the possibility, given how batshit crazy people are on the interwebz these days, that someone could start harassing the hapless bastard, and that would be a shame, too.

Also, I appreciate your perspective on the cyber bullying thing... I've often felt that the word "bullying" is one of those that has been bastardized in our society to cover any number of ills that really don't qualify as bullying, but then again I'm not in schools seeing what happens to kids these days. So thanks for chiming in with a different point of view. It's appreciated.

1967Buck's picture

MrChengsaw  after reading your thoughts on all this, I would like to know something. Did you teach your students how to follow the Rules? Well we have rules here too, most follow them and some don't. For every action theres a re-action. Commenting Policy is down below, right hand side. I hope this helps, Peace.

+1 HS
SOF_Buckeye's picture

Buck, just to point something out, Jeff did nothing on the 11W site, so pointing out the commenting policy here isn't relevant to him/twitter, and/or displaying his name. With regards to Skid, I don't believe MrCheng had a problem.

"The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender." Woody Hayes

BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

Ramzy and staff member Cade Jetland personally attacked me to the expense of 11 Warriors, I explain in detail above...until they delete it I'm sure.

Jeff Haug

-3 HS
jaxbuckeye's picture

The point of journalism is to get people thinking and talking.  Check and check.  Well played Mr Ramzy.  Well played.

+2 HS
buckboyy's picture

A good journalist provokes an intellectual thought, whether the reporter is writing a commentary or just reporting the news.  You do not have to agree with such thoughts or ideas - it makes no difference whether the author's provocations are right or wrong, good or bad - as long as the writer's audience has been put into a mode to think about their own position based on the facts presented, and their interest is held so they keep reading, then the journalist has done a good job. 

that's incredible but true!

+3 HS
krodawg's picture

I'm still trying to find said article. I could have found it on the old site...

Has the article been taken down?

-1 HS
Earle's picture

Who in the Sam Hill is Cade Jetland?

+1 HS
AndyVance's picture

I'm glad I'm not the only one pondering this very question. Inquiring minds and all...

BuckeyeJeff2112's picture

He is an employee for 11 warriors that does the video....that went out of his way with the help of Ramzy to cyber bully me. It's all good I realize now I've spent way to much time on these stupid web pages and twitter....I've deleted my twitter account and I don't tweet at all.  minus three more points.

Jeff Haug