Ohio State Basketball Forum

Ohio State Basketball Forum

Ohio State men's and women's basketball discussion.

Why Thad

rls321321's picture
February 28, 2014 at 12:56pm

As I've this exact thing b4. There is absolutely no reason to start or play Amir Williams over Trey McDonald. It's makes no sense. Mcdonald does everything better than Amir. Trey actually HAS a post move. He can dribble the ball once or twice to get to the basket. He has more energy.He doesn't shoot foul shots as well.If the reason Matta plays Amir is b/c his 3 inches of extra height I would have to say that is ridiculous. McDonald more than makes up for the height by simply being a better overall player.


Hovenaut's picture

I thought this thaid why tho thad?


How long until spring practice starts?

Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, and Thyme

+6 HS
Hovenaut's picture

Thay what?

...tharting to thound like Lou Hotlh.

Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, and Thyme

+4 HS
tennbuckeye19's picture

Maybe you should ask Thad.  

-1 HS
DefenceWinsChampionships's picture

As I've (posted?) this exact thing b4. There is absolutely no reason to

... make another thread about it.

+11 HS
OldColumbusTown's picture

While I also sometimes get very frustrated with Amir's play, last night was a huge indication of why Thad prefers to play Amir more than Trey (and has good reason to do so).  WHEN MOTIVATED, Amir can actually be a decent presence in the post on offense, and he's an eraser on defense.  Last night, he barely played and each time he went to the bench (as well as Craft) the team struggled almost instantaneously.  Yes, Trey scored some points last night, but it was nothing that Amir would not have done in the same situation, and Trey did not rebound at all or provide any type of shot-blocking presence.

I wish Amir always played with tenacity, but I just don't think it is in his nature, to be honest.

+3 HS
rls321321's picture

Amir williams has no post presence offensively...none. He can dunk & he can lay the ball off the glass. He can't put the ball on the floor.  I have seen him try without any success offensively.  Please let me know what post moves he has offensively? 

A total whiff has a recruit



-4 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

If you can't see that Amir is better than Trey, I can't help you. Just because Trey plays at 100MPH doesn't mean he's playing better. 

+6 HS
DefenceWinsChampionships's picture

Sometimes people just have no concept. Its like the folks who thought Kenny G should be playing over Braxton. Some fans have to think coaches like Matta and Meyer are just standing in a corner, repetitively poking themselves in eyes 3 stooges style... As a coach, I relate fans like this to the ignorant parents who always assume their kid is an all star. They don't see the practices, so they don't get to see their kid getting handled every day by the exact person they say isn't good enough to start over their son/daughter. If Amir wasn't better than Trey, he wouldn't be getting the start. Guys like Thad don't get where they are by ignoring talent or playing favorites.

+9 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

I agree with your point, but disagree with one of your analogies. I think this is more obvious than Braxton over Kenny. Kenny could start at a lot of school. I don't think Trey is anything more than a role player for any of the top 50 teams. 

It seems like trashing Amir is the popular complaint for "Buckeye fans".  The only other big men in the B1G I'd trade Amir for are Payne and McGary.  He's not Sullinger, but he was never going to be. Everyone expects him to be great. He's just a quality college big man. He's the third best big we've had in the last ten years. Just appreciate that we're a little spoiled by recent guys. 

+1 HS
DefenceWinsChampionships's picture

Fair enough, I agree that Kenny and Brax was probably not the best choice. I was simple alluding to the idea that "the most popular player on any football team is the backup QB". I could have went with any number of Browns controversies, but the clowns make me sad so I went with the OSU one that was freshest in everyone's mind. And while Kenny G could most certainly start for a lot of teams, Brax does some things with the ball in his hands that no one else in the country can do, so I still think the people calling for a change were a bit out there. Thanks for the input though. I would +1 you if I could.

+2 HS
Nutinpa's picture

He was a McDonalds' All -American High School basketball player.  People had high expectations for good reason.  

As to a previous post about playing Trey ahead of Amir, well, I have to respectfully disagree...and that is as polite as I can be.  Yes, Trey plays with energy and heart.  He also has very little ability.  If a big cannot shoot fouls, he better make up for it with Shaq-like skills which Trey does not have.  

OSU has had two dominant Bigs in recent memory: Oden and Sully.  And in the 8 years since 2006, they played a combined 3 seasons.  That makes Thad's recruitment and development of elite bigs rather suspect, wouldn't you say?  "We're a little spoiled by recent guys".....uh...no. 

brandonbauer87's picture

Definitely spoiled. Oden and Sullinger were drafted in the 1st round. Mullens and Koufos were both drafted. Amir won't be drafted. He's not an NBA talent. 

I_Run_The_Dave's picture

Also, Amir can make more than 30% of his free throws.  PSU knew that any time Trey had the ball, they could let him try to shoot/dunk it and foul the crap out of him and watch him clank his shots and get the ball back.

It also felt like the refs did everything they could to keep Amir on the bench (and Craft too) throughout the game.

+5 HS
buckskin's picture

I played high school Bball with Aaron Craft and I am still miffed that I had to ride the pine behind him (my parents also agree with me).  

What are we doing on the site to note thick sarcasm? 

+5 HS
KevinJ's picture

Sarcasm font on...

Oh you said thick

+1 HS
DefenceWinsChampionships's picture

If you put it in bold, your sarcasm font would be thicker... although I hear its not the thickness that matters, its how you use it...

+4 HS
gobucks96's picture

Given the fact that they thought giving lenzelle smith jr. the ball at the end of the game (twice!) was a good idea.........

It's time to put the freshman in and let him learn.

-1 HS
thePhilipJFry's picture

Trey McDonald gets 0.11 rebounds per minute played.  Amir Williams is the best player Ohio State has at rebounding the basketball (0.21 rebounds per minute played).

Trey McDonald gets 0.04 blocks per minute played.  Amir Williams gets 0.06 blocks per minute played.

Trey McDonald has an offensive rating of 89 and a usage of 13.  Amir Williams has an offensive rating of 107 and a usage of 18.  This means Amir is able to use more possessions and use them more efficiently than Trey McDonald.

They both get 0.02 steals per minute played.

Trey McDonald gets 0.06 assists per minute played, Amir Williams get 0.13 assists per minute played.

Also I'm having trouble with this statement:

Mcdonald does everything better than Amir

Is it possible that you and I have inverted definitions of everything and nothing?

+8 HS
Killer nuts's picture

I'm glad somebody pointed this out so I didn't have to. Amir has better numbers than Trey in pretty much every category, even when you extrapolate their numbers out as if they played the same number of minutes. The people who think Trey is a better option than Amir because he appears to be trying hard have a very poor understanding of basketball

+2 HS
FROMTHE18's picture

Amir Williams is to OSU bball, what Curtis Grant is to OSU football. They have their moments but its confusing as to how much they struggle.

+2 HS
dbit's picture

For as much as Amir Williams gets ragged on, I don't think he's the main problem on this bball team.

AW came in as a 5 Star McDonald's All-American, which typically means fans expect you to be a star right away.  He was anything but a star, he was extremely raw.  Having watched just about every Buckeye basketball game over his career, his improvement from year one has been huge!  He's actually becoming one of my favorite players, mostly because he is showing tremendous emotion this year, which was severely lacking.

The statistics back that up as well

  Minutes FG% FT% Rebounds Blocks
Freshman 6.6 53% 36% 2.1 0.8
Sophomore 16.5 56% 56% 3.9 1.4
Junior 23.5 60% 68% 5.8 1.8


Against teams that were ranked when they played the Buckeyes, here are some stats:

Marquette - 2-2 FG, 3 rebounds, 5 blocks, 4 points

Michigan State - 3-3 FG, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks, 8 points

Iowa - 4-7 FG, 6 rebounds, no blocks, 11 points

Wisconsin - 3-6 FG, 6 rebounds, 1 blocks, 9 points

Iowa - 5-6 FG, no rebounds, 1 block, 12 points

Michigan - 3-4 FG, 7 rebounds, 1 blocks, 7 points



I think your anger is misplaced, because AW does contribute to the team.  Your anger should be directed towards the fact that, despite being in a game where EVERYTHING was called as a foul, the Buckeyes 1) did not give the ball to Ross 2) did not even drive to the basket



+4 HS
Nutinpa's picture

The anger needs to be directed to what should be obvious:  That in the past 3...or sometimes 4 seasons, the composite offensive results and skills of Craft, LSJ, Sammy T and Shannon Scott have not improved to the point where their development was both clear to see and beneficial to the team.  Amir improved....but still not much of a threat.  Trey McD plays with heart and without skills; Q just lacks the intangibles to ever become an elite player.  Although he is the biggest offensive threat on this team, does anyone see him starting for Cuse, Kansas, L-Ville, Duke or any other truly elite team or program now?  I can't.

This team plays with heart, no doubt.  But to see a major college basketball team like this struggle on offense is more than pause for concern especially with Chris Jent gone.

thePhilipJFry's picture

Here is the list of B1G players this season who play more than 30 minutes per game and use about 28% or more of their teams possessions when they are on the floor.

team player ort usg min/gm
NEB Terran Petteway 103.3 34.1 32.6
IA Roy Devyn Marble 115.8 28.3 32.6
OSU LaQuinton Ross 114.3 28.2 30.1
MSU Gary Harris 112.7 28.1 34.9
NW Drew Crawford 92.2 27.7 38.5

Ross has a pretty good argument for B1G player of the year.  He's not going to get it, but take some time, maybe a deep breath and appreciate someone who just might be the best offensive basketball player in the B1G this year.  Also Arron Craft, Shannon Scott and Amir Williams are the only players on Ohio State this season with a better defensive rating than Ross. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/ohio-state/2014.html

Killer nuts's picture

I think you short change the improvement of Sam, Shannon, and Lenzelle. If you think back to their freshman years they could not make a jump shot, Shannon especially. While their improvement may not be to your liking they are all unquestionably better than they came in. As for Craft, the remaking of his jumpshot is well chronicled and obviously the payoff isn't apparent. That said, it may have been Jent who was responsible for the remodeling of Craft's jumpshot anyway

+1 HS
Killer nuts's picture

As a reminder, Scott shot 28% from the field, 5% (!) from 3, and 22%(!) from the free throw line as a freshman 

Lenzelle shot 12% from 3 as a freshman (in limited time/opportunities)

and Sam shot 7% from 3 and 54% from the free throw line 

Nutinpa's picture

Killer, If I am guilty of shortchanging them....then I suggest you are guilty of using statistics (you know, statistics lie and all that) to prove a point that means nothing.  Yes, Scott has improved, I will grant that. You can argue that Sammy's shot is better now than 2 years ago.

But one thing is is an absolute fact: this team has struggled to score since the departures of DT, Buford, Diebler and Sully.  You can quote all the "improvement" stats on Offense of Craft, Scott, LSJ and Sammy.  Yet any opposing coach who doesn't dare this team to shoot from the outside should be fired.

The glaring fact limiting this team is that since DT left, the last vestige of predictable, clutch scoring went with him. You can build a house with the bricks that this team has put up this year. 

Killer nuts's picture

I'll agree that they haven't improved as much as we'd like. Certainly it'd be wonderful if they all developed into 20 ppg scorers but in reality few guys do. Their improvements are clear though. While their current abilities may not be as great as you'd like if they were still the freshman versions of themselves then this team would struggle to score 40 points per game. It's also worth considering that each of their defensive abilities and knowledge of team concepts have improved since they entered the program and now allows us to compete with anybody in the country based on our team defense and prowess