PHONE'S RINGING -- IT'S URBAN ON THE LINE
aaaand the delusion goes all the way to the top..
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
He is going to really get upset when they play Wisky. The Big Ten crews never call holding on them.
The god-awful defensive holding call on the punt that swung the momentum was delusional?
I'm not saying that cost PSU the game, or anything, but you can't deny it was huge.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
You also can't deny that that was clearly holding...
"Do not pray for an easy life. Rather, pray for the the strength to endure a difficult one" - Bruce Lee
I'd like to know if the penalty recipient was instructed to do that since the long-snapper was responsible for two punt-tackles at that point in the game.
And btw.. you can't pancake a snapper like that. It is a penalty. Nice try though Penn State.
Also get over it, you lost.
I normally try to not be a homer with calls like that, but that actually was holding. The Penn State player clearly pulled him to the ground, despite the fact that Spielman and McDonough thought our player dropped to the ground himself.
Being completely objective here, that call wasn't god-awful. It was clearly a hold, as Bar dragged our longsnapper Haynes to the ground. I'll admit that on Miller's amazing TD run the refs missed a god-awful hold of Mauti by Fragel, but the holding call on the punt was the right call.
Edit: Hail, I upvoted you because someone decided to downvote you because you had a differing opinion.
I generally support that compensatory upvoting, but now Hail has +3 votes on what should be a net zero comment - i.e., his run-of-the-mill opinion (not supported by any analysis) concerning how he felt about a single call in a football game.
[edit: btw, I did not, and would not, downvote Hail for simply stating his opinion as he did - I just think it wasn't especially upvote worthy].
I downvoted him because he's a d-bag and... he made that comment.
He's not a d-bag, nor is he a PSU fan. Hail is a UM fan that remains entirely civil when posting here.
I know he's not a PSU fan. About the other thing... it's my opinion. Born and bred in Ohio but die-hard Michigan fan... yeah, go live in Detroit then.
BTW William, how long do you think he'd last on 11W if he weren't civil? Or for that matter, why does he feel the need to be an active presence on this site if he hates Ohio State so much?
Just because Hail has a difference of opinion on his team of choice doesn't mean that he can't be on 11W.
But he IS civil, since when has he ever been a Dbag? He's always been a pretty classy poster and isn't homeristic. He calls it as he sees it and doesn't hesitate to compliment the Bucks or ding his own team. I can respect him for that and it's also nice to hear things from the other point of view.
Yes I hate the Wolverines and enjoy watching the Bucks or even Ohio beat them. But that doesn't mean I can't respect the hell out of them when it's warranted (ie Hail or that UM recruit who went down at the one so his hurting teammate could score the TD).
When he joined the site last Feb, he made the comment that he roots against Ohio State in every game we play. Okay, I get it. I do the same about Michigan. BUT I DON'T GO ON MGOBLOG AND TELL ALL THEIR SITE-READERS THAT.
Plus, he's from the Dayton area. Has always lived in Ohio. So why the attachment to Michigan? Just another outcast-Ohioan (ahem... Flounder is fat) wanting attention in my book.
Plus, we're 24 days away from putting those buttholes back in their place. So I think it's time we start bringing out our gamefaces.
I don't quite agree with your views on Hail, but I do agree that as we approach The Week, different rules start to apply - within reason.
But we're only at about Defcon 4 right now. It's not even November yet.
Next week, it'll be Defcon 3.
Bye week/Wisconsin week = Defcon 2.
The Week = Defcon 1.
You're comments toward Hail are appropriate for either Defcon 2 or Defcon 1, depending on whether General Buck(eye) Turgidson is in charge of the war room.
You're comments toward Hail are appropriate for either Defcon 2 or Defcon 1
You're comments toward Hail are appropriate for either Defcon 2 or Defcon 1
Noted. Thanks Fido.
Because you'd get banned immediately at mgoblog for doing that. We're better than that here. As you can see from your downvote collection, most people appreciate a thoughtful contrarian opinion from time to time. We also appreciate avoiding personal attacks and not being a jerk, which you epicly failed at in your post. He doesn't troll, so who cares where he goes to get his CFB fix.
Liking our arch rival doesn't make you a dbag. Being a dbag makes you a dbag, no matter who you root for.
When told OSU set school record for 50+ games this year, UFM said "That's good. We're gonna break that next year."
Liking our arch rival doesn't make you a dbag.
Liking our arch rival doesn't make you a dbag.
That's debatable. But whatever.
It was indeed a salient play, but I'd argue it was the drive (and subsequent touchdown before the half) that really swung the momentum--and that's directly attributable to their defense failing to stop our offense. I really loathe when people blame referees for final outcomes (which I know you're not doing), it's something to be expected in any game, and the better team will almost always rise above constraining circumstances.
It was a terrible call (or at least didn't need to be called)--I won't dispute that--but a few guys on BSD were totally right: the bad calls went both ways, the ones that went OSU's way were just much more noticable because they were actually moving the ball on a consistent basis.
I don't think it would have been called if it wouldn't have been the the long snapper. He barely got his head up when Bar grabbed him by the shoulders and threw him down.
Agreed, also if you follow the Buckeyes at all on punt coverage you know that Haynes is often the first one down there making a tackle or at least shutting off one side of the field. Taking him out is definitely a huge benefit to the return team and doing it illegally should penalized. Was it ticky tack? Maybe. Was it the right call? I would say definitely.
I try to follow the Buckeyes on punt coverage, but I'm not the most observant guy in the world. As my wife will tell you, I'm the living, breathing stereotype of the guy who is standing in the closet, staring - with jaw fully agape - at the red tie, who yells to his wife in the other room, "honey, where is my red tie?"
Anyway, I didn't notice that Byce Haynes had made a tackle on punt defense until I saw the box score. My immediate reaction was, "Is Bryce okay? He's a poor, spindly long snapper who can't weigh much more than a buck eighty." Apparently, Bryce has grown up the last year. I knew that he had won the long snapper job, but I thought he simply snapped the ball and then kept his head down while screeching to the player across from him, "you can't touch me as I long as I keep my head down!"
Now, opponents are so fearful of Bryce flying down the field and destroying souls that they're having to hold him before he can unleash hell. He's made such an impact that Bill O'Brien is going to war over Bryce.
And to think that some members of the 11W community thought it was a bad idea to give a schollie to a long snapper.
I can't tell if you are mocking me or agreeing with me, so one up for you. But I do truly think that Bryce is having a significant impact on covering punts. His snaps have been solid that I remember, but I also remember seeing him get down there and be in on most of the tackles occasionally being the first guy.
Normally, because of restrictions on how much you are allowed to hit long snappers and the fact that they are often essentially a center and not much of a threat running down field, people tend to stay away giving them giving him free range to go down the field untouched. Good on PSU for noticing and trying to at least give him a bump, not so good on PSU for tackling him.
I think the holding call may have been a result of Urban informing the refs of holds on previous punts (we had plenty the first half). And then the refs knowing what to look for. I don't have DVR but if someone wants to do research I'd be willing to give them a plus one.
Sorry, definitely not mocking you.
First, I was mocking myself because I somehow missed - in the course of nine games so far - the rather obvious fact that Bryce Haynes has been consistently involved in punt coverage this year.
Second, I was good naturedly poking fun at football specialists - usually, we make fun of FG kickers, but this time was being sarcastic about a long snapper. When Haynes was recruited, he was one of the best, quickest-delivering snappers, but I swear he looked like he weighed about 180 lbs.
You make two excellent points:
Meyer said the holding call against PSU on punt was created by guys (Bryce Haynes) screaming down the field on coverage.
— Brandon Castel (@BCastOZone) October 31, 2012
Meyer said the holding call against PSU on punt was created by guys (Bryce Haynes) screaming down the field on coverage.
— Brandon Castel (@BCastOZone) October 31, 2012
Urban approves my comment above! Also, Urban, if you are out there and in need of a guy who notices random things about your team, I would take the job if the pay is right. Also no worries Fido, I don't take things personally anyways so no need to apologize it was just a funny post that made it hard for me to figure what exactly you were getting at.
Hail- i saw it as a complete hold and should not have been questioned. I absolutely agree that it was a momentum changer. That was not what i was referring to as being delusional....
and no i didn't downvote you, i upvoted you lol just getting that out there
No, you are wrong. Bars clearly grabs him by his shoulders and brings him to the ground. The long snapper had been down the field and in on some punt tackles. I think the coach, Bars or someone came up with the idea to take him down. It was a good call and the right call.
The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes
It was clearly a proper holding call. Please review the play again.
Johnny Hooker: "He's not as tough as he thinks". Henry Gondorff: "Neither are we".
There was PLENTY of holding in that game from both sides, mostly uncalled.
As I tell my oldest in regards to high school football (he is a LG), holding can be called on virtually every play if you look (offense and defense). Can every call be made, nope. They call what they see to the best of their ability and move on to the next play
This is true. Every call can't be made and won't be made. It is interesting though how some officiating crews call a game extremely tight, while others let things and are more loose. In the PSU game even Spiels and McDonough pointed out how the officials were 'letting the teams play'.
The punt holding call was legit but it is rarely called. Spiels said yesterday that the linemen are actually taught that move.
"It's just another case of there you are". ~ Doc (1918-2012)
Which makes sense. If you are taught that and the chances of it being called are slim, then I imagine it's worth the risk. Plus it gives the receiving team an advantage becaue they have one less guy to deal with as a potential tackler.
By definition, that was a hold on Bar. Now, was it nitpicky and not often called? Yes. But a referee is supposed to treat each and every play the same and to never look at the score. Just because it happens on the other side of the field or maybe on a "big" play that could change the game doesn't mean anything. If there is an obvious hold on a PAT, throw the flag. When an official starts to call penalties with the situation in the back of his mind, you lose control of the game. Players will start pulling jerseys and facemasks every chance they get if they think they can get away with it. There were missed calls in that game for both teams, it just so happened that the missed calls for PSU ended up with big plays for the Buckeyes so they are more apparent.
After umpiring baseball games for a few years, I usually give any officials the benefit of the doubt. Everything happens so fast, you're just trying to call it the best you can. Just as I say to coaches who yell at me for a called strike, "I'm not going out of my way to make your day any worse, sir. With my judgement, I had the evidence to make the call, so I did."
If we're dealing with a complete misunderstanding of a rule, then it's a completely different story and I think officials should be called out on it.
The last thing on BoB mind should be officiating because the next 3 - 4 years of ass - whippings ped- state gonna receives from their opponents aren't going to have anything to do with the refs.. Loss of mad schollys bowl bans, tranfers etc. Hell he will be questioning himself for taking that crappy job...
"GIMMIE THAT BEAT FOOL!!! IT A FULL TIME JACK MOVE" Ice Cube jack for beats..
downvoted because of "Ped State". Leave that for the ESPN comments. We're better than that around here.
Soo?? The university who top to bottom covered for a child molester so as not to embarrass the fan base and school all the while letting the child molester abuse MORE little boys should not be called ped state???
Correct. We can do better than resorting to name-calling.
agreed. thats the penn state equivalent of "Suckeyes." dont start that kind of stuff here man
Or O$U which I see a lot on BSD. It's their way of implying that we pay our players like the SEC... without really saying it.
I'm fine with fOSU though. That implies frustration with our success. :-)
The no call when Fragel held Mauti was pretty darn bad considering it happened right in front of the ball carrier.
The holding on the punt was by definition a hold, but it was a little nitpicky, especially for Big Ten refs. Rarely do you see a flag thrown for holding on the interior line on a punt. Those flags are usually reserved for when the gunners are held.
The personal foul on Amos was terrible.
So in the end, it was one awful call (the personal foul), one nitpicky call, and one very bad no-call. Enough to change the outcome? Probably not. The way I saw it, if those calls (and the no call) go PSU's way, we're looking at best a 17-10 OSU lead heading into the 4th quarter and at worst a 13-10 PSU lead heading into the fourth, and with better athletes and more depth, OSU probably still wins.
I do understand the PSU frustration though. If you go back to the UVa and Ohio games, there were some pretty bad no calls. The PSU front seven were being held all day. It was pretty bad, especially in the UVa game. So when you have that mixed with certain calls going OSU's way on Saturday, it's understandable that they may get a little frustrated.
But did the questionable stuff go OSU's way Saturday? Sure. But that's probably not because of some anti-PSU sentiment. It's Urban Meyer. Refs will flag Bill Obrien's squad before the flag Urban Meyer's team. It's the gravitas he possesses, not unlike Greg Maddux or other elite pitchers getting a slightly larger strike zone. It's not like the umpires like one guy and not the other. It's something in their subconcious where they're more likely to give the benefit of the doubt on a close call to a Hall of Famer than they would to a guy just up from Triple A.
Interesting points, but Urbz's gravitas did not seem to work in the Buckeyes favor in the Indiana or Purdue games, and it did not spur the officials in the PSU game to call holding on PSU's OL.
Re: Purdue and Indiana
That's the underdog effect. You won't get those calls against teams you're supposed to be beating by 3-4 TDs (unless it's the SEC, where they openly protect their top teams as much as is possible).
Again, this is like Miami fans telling me that our championship was tainted because of the flag on Glen Sharpe on Gamble in the endzone. I'm sorry, but you've got the ball first-and-goal from the one yard line, if you can't score a touchdown there, you don't deserve the win.
The bottom line is that Penn State couldn't stop us or get anything really going when it mattered. I know that momentum exists in football, and that certain calls can drain that, but one cannot expect for every call to go their way, nor the opposite. Penn State's poor play put them in the position to blame the loss on calls. Had they played a better game, they would have rendered the bad calls worthless (see Braxton's rediculous fumble a few weeks ago).
That hold happened on a punt from our side of the field. People forget that we had to successfully drive the ball the length of that field to score against their vaunted LB corps.
Few things give me worse heartburn than blaming a football game, ANY football game on any call that occurred (or didn't occur) during a game.
Football is the ultimate team sport where outcomes are ALWAYS measured as the aggregate result of dozens of plays. Looking at one and saying "THIS COST US THE GAME" is short sighted, foolish, and quite frankly reflects a lack of basic understanding about the complex relationship each play has with its counterparts during the course of a 60 minute affair. Whether its a dropped TD as time expires or a holding call missed in the third quarter-those respective plays only paint a small portion of the picture that is the game in its entirety.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Nothing personal Humble but PSU fans are really starting to become my most-hated-fanbase in the B1G. My lurking on BSD is probably the biggest reason for this. Based on BSD posters and commentors -- they feel as if they are NCAA victims (when they should be ashamed of the Sandusky cover-up). That there is a B1G conspiracy to purposefully make sure they lose games. (Which is ridiculous. Really.) They will not acknowledge one single positive thing about Ohio State as an institution or the Ohio State football program. Or for that matter any other B1G school or football program. (In every thread over there, I can find at least one commentor who makes a point to state how much they hate the Big Ten and/or the midwest.) In their minds, we are less than them. In everything. Which makes me want to vomit.
Are there normal Penn State fans who don't see everything thru Paterno glasses. Yes, I've seen comments on BSD that I thought were reasonable. But they are a very distinctive minority. Very, very small number. Why you hang out on BSD and engage those guys is beyond me.
At this point though, I'm totally onboard with kicking them out of the Big Ten. I've had enough of the ludicrous Penn State fanbase.
My brother from another mother.
That has been my rallying cry this entire time since the Sandusky news and subsequent stories about cover ups and what not broke-When all we see are people riding to the front lines in defense of Joe Paterno and Penn State and no one of any importance saying "Chill out guys, lets show a little bit more tact" or something to that tune, I have to assume that the majority of fans are the crazy ones. We all know a crazy (insert team) fan and the default reaction is always "Well they aren't all that bad". Now the word "ALL" is tricky as there are clearly contrite PSU fans but until anyone with any juice at that place comes out and says the opposite of what the other people with juice (looking at you Franco, Paterno Family) I will continue my belief that theirs is a fanbase flipped on its head-we see the vocal MAJORITY while the silent MINORITY suffers.
Let me take your post point by point:
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"they feel as if they are NCAA victims" - are they not? This was a criminal issue, not an NCAA issue.
"when they should be ashamed of the Sandusky cover-up" - You obviously haven't read the Freeh Report. The idea that there was a bona fide cover-up is such a leap of logic it's ridiculous. Were their incompetent university administrators who seriously dropped the ball? Absolutely. Cover-up? I don't think so. At least the evidence in my mind isn't conclusive. But I'm not hear to debate the Freeh Report. After having read it, I just became inclined to agree with many in the PSU community that the conclusions reached require several serious leaps of logic. The jury is still out on that. We'll find out a lot more during the Schultz and Curley perjury trials (and if the evidence does conclusively point to a cover-up, then may they rot in hell).
That there is a B1G conspiracy" - yes, I'll agree. There are some that have alleged this. Very few of them actually hold that sentiment. They are more or less pissed at Delany for not standing up for them the way he went to bat for OSU leading up to the Sugar Bowl, and to that I end I agree. Delany is usually not afraid to be the voice of reason even if it makes him unpopular. I don't believe that there's a B1G conspiracy against PSU, nor do most of the people at BSD (most are just upset with Delany). I do think that the fact that Delany was largely silent on the issue speaks volumes about what he believes to be the truth.
"They will not acknowledge one single positive thing about Ohio State as an institution" - how often have you or anyone else on here acknowledged one positive thing about ANY other institution, much less Penn State? How many times have you or anyone else ever said "You know what, I know we hate them, but the University of Michigan is really a top notch institution" (which it is). No, instead we have a bunch of people who counter that by pointing out the absurd number of athletes in their General Studies program (which is less than 1% of student enrollment) because we'll never bring ourselves to say anything positive about Michigan. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Trash talk is part of college sports. But to think that they're awful fans because they won't worship at the statue of William Oxley Thompson is ridiculous. I don't expect them to say anything positive about OSU, just as I don't expect our fans to go out of their way to levy praise among all our opponent's institutions.
"In their minds, we are less than them" - You can read their minds now? They may think their fanbase is better, but I've never read anything that would suggest anyone actually thinks they are better people in general. And come on! You have to be able to separate trash talk from reasoned debate.
"Are there normal Penn State fans who don't see everything thru Paterno glasses" - yours and many people's inability to be objective suggests that you're looking at everything through Woody's glasses.
"I'm totally onboard with kicking them out of the Big Ten" - why? Just because you hate their fanbase? Ok, let's kick out all the schools whose fanbases annoy us. See ya later Michigan! If it were up to other schools in the B1G to kick out the team with the most obnoxious fanbase, we'd have been packing a long time ago, because whether it's true or not, the perception is that we are the most obnoxious fanbase in the B1G.
I remain as objective on Penn State, their fans, and the scandal as I was concerning Tressel, Herbstriet, and the OSU fanbase.
Just about every talking head - and many on here - have expressed sentiment that the sanctions were bogus because this was a criminal issue, not an NCAA issue, and yet we somehow expect their fanbase to not be outraged and maybe feel a little slighted? Especially considering they were called out as possessing some sort of hyper focused "football culture"? I'd be pissed too! You can't honestly tell me that PSU has any sort of culture problem when compared to Alabama (they have a freakin statue of Saban, and he's only been coaching since '07), Ohio State (we have a street named for a coach who was fired after punching an opposing player... or how about "I hope he doesn't fire me!"), Kentucky (serious basketball culture problem in many regards down in Lexington), LSU (where Chancellor Mark Emmert stated that "The success of LSU football is crucial to the success of the university"). I mean for effin sake dude, America has a football culture problem! Don't think so? When a levy is proposed, what do the school districts use as leverage to get it passed? Threatening to lay off teachers? It rarely works. No, they threaten to cut sports funding and implement "pay to play". They know that's unfortunately what gets many people's attention. Owner threatens to move his NFL team out of a city? We immediately rush to the polls to tax ourselves and our neighbors to build him a new stadium. We're ok with subsidizing billionaire owners and millionaire athletes, just so long as we get our precious football.
So yes, I sympathize with Penn State, because the fans - yes the fans - were made scapegoats over the evil and disgusting acts of a souless man, and that sort of deflection from the real issue is embarrassing and does a disservice to victims everywhere. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered, and all Mark Emmert did was deflect blame from those who are actually culpable by framing it through the prism of football.
I couldn't disagree with you more Humble. Not going into this point by point with you as it's no longer on the main page and I doubt you'll ever see my response.
The fanbase IS bat-shit crazy. I did read the Freeh Report and IMO there was a cover-up. And apparently the attorney general of PA agrees with me.
Man, you've really gone to the dark-side dude. After all this is over (re Spanier/Curley/Schultz trials and civil proceedings), you're going to realize that Emmert did the correct thing. And BTW, PSU is going to get some Clery Act sanctions as well so I guess the BSD'ers better start contriving a Dept. of Education conspiracy as well.
And I want them out of the league because I'm tired of their bs.
You make some good points on some of the potential penalties that were/weren't called. However, there were also a bunch of holding calls that could've been called on PSU's line throughout the night. I remember literally jumping up and down on one of PSU's TDs because of a missed holding call. And I want to say that there were one or two holds on the other TD drive as well.
I guess my point is that it could've just as easily have been 35 to 7-10 had some of thoe holding calls been called. To be fair, there were a bunch of potential holding calls on OSU that weren't called either.
After this season, Bill O'Brien is going to have much bigger problems to worry about than quizzing the Big Ten office about past officiating decisions/patterns.
He should talk to them after the season, they have been awful in multiple games this year. As stated, they let the OSU/PSU game get out of control with all the non-holding calls. Purdue's "fumble recovery" Indiana's "onside recovery" just to name a few that were filled with questions.
OSU has gotten the benefit of a few, but it's evened out I'd say
What the hell is in the water up there in Foxboro that they crank out arrogant as hell coordinators? I think BOB is doing a great job keeping Penn State credible (and more than competitive) during this unbelievably trying season. Having said that, though, it's his first season. Cool your jets, big fella on the "I'm going to take care of this" talk. You've yet to win a significant game (Iowa? NW? Sorry, no), are facing a stretch of severely compromised recruiting, and just haven't earned the right to layer blanket criticism on the refs.
Charlie Weis was a whiny sack of shit, too, after the Fiesta Bowl. He still has yet to win a significant game.
The really aggravating thing to me on the call for holding on the punt was Spielman's comment. He said the PSU player was only protecting himself from a chop block. To me, it was an obvious hold and the correct call.
I agreed with Spielman the first time I saw the replay, but when they showed it again, it was pretty obviously a hold. You don't protect yourself from a chop block by pulling the guy down by his shoulderpads.
A long snapper releasing upfield also isn't chop blocking anyone. Defeats the purpose of punt coverage.
You know what BoB should do? Shut up and start working towards the next game. It's shit like this that's going to make officials call more penalties against you.
In fairness to O'Brien, he was asked a direct question specifically about officiating. He didn't complain about specific calls or say it cost them the game, he just said he would have some questions for the officials after the season.
All I hear is "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Ohio State beat me and thats not fair..... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"
"if irony were made of strawberries, we' d all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."
I heard something similar last month when we beat Michigan State...
This only made me lose respect for O'Brien. If you have something to say then say it; don't imply it like a coward. And if your team gets beat then own it, don't try to cop out because of officiating on a few plays.
The only question BOB should be asking is "Why did I take this job?"
+1, trust and believe by this time next year you and everybody else will be hearing rumors (that are true ) about BoB ready to call it quits after getting off to a o for 8 start book it...
Heres an idea. Why not worry about coaching your team to be winners, not whiners. Why even give the media a quote to run with?
Hmm... where have I seen this before... ah, yes, here:
I don't like to see a person kicked when they're down. Literally or figuratively. However, from this day forth, this rule will not apply to State Pen or BoB. I've got one piece of advice. BoB, don't make an a$$ out of your chin...aah.. I mean.. yourself. Look around Billy, your in a world of $hit. Not the best place to start digging a hole!
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
Where the hell is that opinion coming from that Fragel's "hold" on Mauti was obvious and flagrant? I've watched that replay multiple times now, and just now again at the link above, and I'm not seeing anything that's obviously holding. If it had been called I'd be saying WTF? That happens to Simon and Hankins on almost every single play.
I have to say that I agree with him. There have been a lot of questionable calls this season, for and against us.
After reading the article I tend to agree with him. The officiating has been spotty at best and he wants some clarification. I'm sure he is more use to officiating in the NFL. Doesn't seem like sour grapes, it seems like he wants more info.
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