Film Study: Scouting Virginia Tech

By Kyle Jones on September 4, 2014 at 11:30a
Shai McKenzie could be a big problem
127 Comments

Don't let the numbers fool you.

Coming in unranked and off a win against FCS opponent William & Mary in which they played 17 freshmen, the Virginia Tech Hokies will offer a huge challenge for Ohio State on Saturday night. With young playmakers on offense and a defense as well-coached as you'd expect from Frank Beamer and coordinator Bud Foster, the visitors from Blacksburg present some serious matchup problems for Urban Meyer's squad.


Offense

As they showed in week one, the Hokies present an offensive attack very similar to that of the Buckeyes under Meyer. With junior quarterback Michael Brewer making his first start after transferring from Texas Tech, the Hokies have implemented a number of Air Raid principles and will at times operate at a hurry-up, no-huddle pace.

But make no mistake, much like OSU the Hokie offense centers around the power running game and builds from there. Offensive coordinator Scott Loeffler prefers a zone-blocking scheme, splitting carries between two freshmen running backs in #22 Shai McKenzie, the reigning ACC rookie of the week, and #42 Marshawn Williams. Both backs are 6'1" and listed above 220 lbs, and will remind Buckeye fans of Carlos Hyde in their ability to find a hole and consistently fall forward for extra yards.

(Author's note: Many videos and screen-caps are courtesy of our friends at Va Tech blog The Key Play. If you aren't familiar with their in-depth breakdowns, they're definitely worth a look before Saturday night. Their WORK ON TWITTER is also excellent, especially during the season.)

Though often run from a shotgun or pistol formation with multiple wide-outs, Loeffler still finds a way to get plenty of blockers on the field to help guide the way for McKenzie and Williams. The Hokies often operated with tight ends Ryan Malleck (#88) and Bucky Hodges (#7) on the field at the same time, lining them up all around the field. Their versatility is the key to VT's no-huddle attack, allowing them to line up in a power formation one play, and a 5-wide formation the next without making any substitutions.

Hodges often lined up in the slot and showed more playmaking than blocking ability, but his presence alone at 6'6" and 244 lbs is overwhelming for defensive backs, and is enough to neutralize linebackers and defensive ends in the running game. His combination of size and athleticism is very similar to that of Michigan's Devin Funchess, and could create matchup problems for OSU defensive backs.

In addition to Hodges, the Hokies showed they have another playmaker in the slot in freshman Isaiah Ford (#1), who operates very much in the same role as OSU "H" receivers Dontre Wilson and Jalin Marshall. To keep defenses from keying on the Inside Zone, Virginia Tech often likes to package the play with quick passes to the outside, just like the Buckeyes.

As the defensive end crashes down to play the inside handoff, Brewer simply pulls the ball and hits Hodges for an easy nine yard gain.

Once defenses recognize this combination and begin playing the screen as well, Loeffler counters by throwing a stick route to one of the would-be blockers like Malleck.

In either situation, the Virginia Tech outside receivers did a good job of blocking the opposing cornerbacks, leaving alley players like SAM linebacker Darron Lee and safeties Vonn Bell and Tyvis Powell to have to come up and make a tackle in space. Although Powell led the team with 13 tackles against Navy, he showed some inconsistency when it came to making open-field tackles, a weak spot that Beamer, Loeffler and company surely noticed.

Unlike Ohio State, the Hokies will also put the quarterback under center at times, inserting fullback Sam Rogers and operating from the offset I-formation. Against William & Mary, the Hokies sometimes all but declared their intention to run the ball with two receivers, a tight end, and a fullback all aligned to one side, creating a situation in which Malleck was covered up and ineligible to even catch a pass.

When it comes time to throw the ball though, Brewer's experience in an advanced passing offense clearly shows up, as the Hokies dialed up classic 'Air Raid' concepts such as Stick, Mesh, and Shallow Cross, looking to get the ball out quickly. They also like to run quite a bit of play-action out when in the off-set I, usually rolling out away from the strength of the formation and hitting flood routes.

But with Brewer already comfortable in the short passing game, Loeffler has begun incorporating deeper route combinations like Dagger and Middle, which features two outside receivers running a slant with a wheel route behind them, and was the play called on Brewer's touchdown pass to Ford last week.

This collection of concepts will be a good litmus test for the cover 4 scheme of OSU defensive coordinator Chris Ash, who has yet to truly unveil the new-look defense after making special adjustments just for Navy. Though the Virginia Tech offense shows some talent at the skill positions, most of these playmakers will be making the second start of their careers, giving neither side an edge in terms of experience. 

One can guess that Loeffler will lean heavily on the no-huddle early in the game to confuse the young Buckeye secondary. By simplifying the scheme in the offseason, the OSU defensive backs should be better prepared to adjust on the fly, but with no real game experience under their belt in this system, there may still be some miscommunication.

But where the Buckeyes have a clear advantage is on the defensive line. Though the VT offensive line features three seniors and isn't asked to execute any crazy blocking schemes, they still had trouble with some of the William & Mary defensive linemen in week one. As noted over at The Key Play:

When William & Mary's defensive ends started aligning as five-techniques (inside shoulder of the offensive tackles) the alignment put tremendous pressure on the tackles to drive the ends. When the Tribe used their ends as seven-techniques (outside shoulder of the tackles), the tough assignment passed to the tight end on a weak zone. Far too often, both the tackles and the tight ends resorted to attempting cut blocks rather than keeping their feet and driving those ends across the hole. 

As we can see in the example, both the tackle and guard on the left side give up penetration, while the right side is unable to execute their cut blocks. Though the Tribe had an FCS All-American at defensive end, the Hokies will have to deal with two potential FBS All-Americans in Joey Bosa and Michael Bennett, both of whom are bigger and quicker than anyone William & Mary put on the field. 

The Buckeyes will surely lean on the ability of their front four to create problems for Virginia Tech, mainly in an effort to keep the Hokies from executing combo blocks and getting to the linebackers. Grant and Perry are big enough to handle the size of the VT backs, but will need to be kept clean in order to stop the running game.

In addition, the D-Line will be called upon to get in the backfield and disrupt the pocket for Brewer. At only 6'0" Brewer isn't huge and had a couple passes knocked down at the line last week, including a ball that ended up getting intercepted. Against a bigger, more athletic D-Line this week, he'll need even bigger windows to get the ball out.

Much as has been the case in recent years for the Ohio State defense, they'll need big plays from the big guys up front in order to slow down Virginia Tech's offense. 


Defense

Make no question though, the Buckeyes' stiffest task on Saturday comes from Bud Foster's defense. The "Lunch pail" outfit resembles an NFL unit in terms of both talent and scheme, with anchors on both up front and in the secondary.

After experiencing success in a 4-2-5 defense in the late 2000's, the Hokies went back to the 4-4 look in 2013 that saw so much success in the late 1990's. However, they don't operate with 4 linebackers exactly, instead using 2 traditional inside linebackers, a "Whip" outside linebacker who is smaller and similar to the SAM role played by Darron Lee for Ohio State, and finally playing a strong safety, or "Rover" as they call it, as the fourth linebacker. 

The Rover has become one of the most important positions in the VT defense, and is currently manned by senior Kyshoen Jarrett (#34), who has started 27 consecutive games at the spot.

To outsiders, this look might appear like a traditional "cover 3" look, with the strong safety walked up to cover the curl/flat area outside. But in reality, Foster operates quite a few schemes from this initial look. 

With this personnel, the Hokies often operate out of two fronts. The first being the "46" front made famous by the 1985 Chicago Bears.

Hokies 46

When teams often run to the strength of the formation, the Hokies like to use this front, allowing the strong side tackle (T), end (S), and linebacker (B) to that side to fill those gaps and leave the Rover (R) free to chase the ball and make a play.

Against William & Mary's spread offense sets, the Hokies played a great deal of their "G" front, which is more similar to the 4-4, with the Rover and Whip acting like outside linebackers.

Hokies G front

Since the Rover and Whip are fairly undersized, their goal in this front is to act as the "Force" player in outside runs, using their speed to get upfield quickly and forcing the ball carrier to cut back into the heart of the defense. 

VT force

As we can see in both examples though, the secondary plays a "one high" look, meaning the free safety is all alone in the deep middle of the field. In week one, that led to a lot of "cover 1" man-to-man coverage, with the free safety playing centerfield behind them and reading the eyes of the quarterback. To help cause problems underneath, the middle linebackers often sat back and read the quarterback as well in these situations, creating a "robber" defensive look.

VT Robber Coverage

As we can see, when in the "G" front, the whip and rover walk out and cover slot receivers when teams line up in 4-wide sets, but will try to keep those players in favorable matchups, such as the whip covering a tight end, as we can see from #41 Derek Di Nardo above.

But when offenses often line up with three or four wide-outs, VT is more than happy to operate in their Nickel package, removing the whip for a third cornerback. With this lack of size, the Hokies will get creative with their coverages, moving in and out of man-to-man and zone from one play to the next. 

Given the talent they've accumulated at the position and the coaching expertise on-hand, Beamer and Foster put a lot of faith in their cornerbacks. One-time Ohio State target Kendall Fuller steps in as a starter this year, but has already shown that he has the athleticism needed to man the outside alone.

Though the OSU receiving core looked solid in week one against Navy, this is a group that has had serious trouble getting open against press coverage in the past, leaving little doubt that the Hokies will test them early and often with this look.

When they do play a zone, the Hokies have been known to run an "Inverted Cover 2" that swaps the roles of a traditional "cover 2" defense, giving the corners responsibility for the deep halves and bringing the safeties up to help stop the run. Against William & Mary, the Hokies showed it sparingly, preferring it only when the Nickel package was on the field.

Inverted Cover 2

Finally, with so much talent in the secondary, Foster dials up an array of zone blitzes on third downs. In an effort to confuse their opponents before the snap, the Hokies will crowd the line of scrimmage, showing blitz from up to seven or eight defenders.

Hokies show blitz

At the snap though, they'll often rush just five, leaving the offensive line to identify and properly pick up the blitzers. 

VT Zone Blitz

To make things even more difficult, they'll often delay the blitz of a linebacker, waiting for the offense to think they have everyone picked up before rushing the passer. This exact kind of blitz left Chase Williams unblocked in week one, allowing him to get a free shot on the QB and cause a fumble.

Va Tech delayed ILB Blitz

With good talent up front in nose tackle #92 Luther Maddy and stud end #90 Dadi Nicolas, the Hokies will do everything they can to overwhelm a young Buckeye offensive line that had some communication issues in week one against Navy. They've also been know to operate from two and three man fronts in the nickel, creating even more questions for opposing offensive lines.

For the Buckeyes to succeed offensively, they'll have to attack the alleys knowing that the cornerbacks playing man coverage aren't watching the backfield, leaving a lot of responsibilities on the whip, rover, or nickelback to make these stops.

One such play could be the outside zone sweep we saw quite a few times against Navy, looking to get the ball to that alley quickly by using the speed of H receivers Dontre Wilson and Jalin Marshall.

OSU H Outside Zone

William & Mary saw success in the running game when they tried to get more bodies to one side on a sweep, but their backs had nowhere near the speed of Wilson. By bringing an extra body to block in running backs Ezekiel Elliott or Rod Smith, the Buckeyes create a numerical advantage to the play side, neutralizing the Hokies' extra defender in the box (in this case, the whip).

For VT to stop this, they'll have to either get their inside linebackers or free safety to that alley quickly while avoiding the extra OSU blockers, or win a one-on-one battle on the defensive line. To stop that penetration, one can surmise that the Buckeyes will run quite a bit behind left tackle Taylor Decker (#68), the only returning starter from 2013 and easily the most talented member of the line.

Undoubtedly, OSU will also still try to establish the Tight Zone inside, but with man coverage on the outside and only one deep safety, the Buckeyes will be facing at least a six man box with only 5 blockers. Barrett will have to establish the threat of pulling the ball on a read-option to neutralize one of the defensive ends, either keeping to run for himself, or throwing a quick pass like we saw quite a bit in week one.

Tight Zone packaged with screen

Like the example above, I expect OSU to use quite a few formations with three receivers to one side, leaving the Hokies to declare their man coverage and leaving fewer defenders to the opposite side, or forcing them to move into a zone, where the Buckeye receivers should be more comfortable.

In the passing game, the Buckeyes will need to call on their inside receivers to make plays. Though the Hokies have outstanding coverage players on the outside with their corners, the Rover and Whip are hybrid players that don't specialize in man coverage. Much of the quick and intermediate passing game we saw in the OSU Spring Game will likely be called a bit more than it was against Navy in order to take advantage of these situations.

All in all though, for Ohio State to succeed offensively, they must be successful on first and second downs. They will not have the luxury of a passive defense sitting back on third down, as they did against Navy. The Hokies have a clear upper hand there, with both the personnel and scheme to cause serious trouble for this Buckeye team in that situation.

That doesn't mean the Buckeyes have to change too much though. With the exception of maybe the cornerbacks, OSU is still the bigger and faster team overall on both sides of the ball. While I expect a relatively low-scoring affair Saturday night, whichever team breaks more big plays will come out with the W.

For the Buckeyes, that means keeping it simple and getting the ball in the hands of playmakers like Wilson, Elliott, and others, hoping their athleticism springs a big play. 

For the Hokies, that means forcing long third downs and creating chaos for a young quarterback and offensive line, looking to cause turnovers.

However it plays out, it should be a lot of fun to watch. See you in the 'Shoe.

127 Comments

Comments

N3t's picture

Hokies not very good

a loss would be an embarassment

-11 HS
Boom777's picture

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm kinda hope we show up like the Bucks of old and stomp their ass by 30

Wherever you are, there you be!

+6 HS
steveoz49's picture

I will tell you that Virginia Tech is much better than the 12 point spread they're against and I would not take them lightly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm praying for a blow out

+8 HS
swainpm's picture

I don't know I bet they are in a bowl game again this year...prob finish 8-4 or 9-3 at best. If they go 9-3 that could put them in the ACC title game.

+4 HS
Ben's picture

Get ready to get embarrassed.  Not a good match up for OSU.

Ben

-10 HS
LeftCoastBuck's picture

Lets see...membership activated yesterday: check

Inane comments with no support: check

No respect for the board; check

Yep....just another troll

"To crush the Wolverines, to see them driven from their stadium, and to hear the lamentation of their fans" Conan the Barbarian (paraphrased) on "what is best in life."

+9 HS
southernstatesbuckeye's picture

Another moron opponent troll.  Wonder where he will be AFTER the game?  Hmmm?  Slinking off into the night, I suppose.

+1 HS
BuckeyeVet's picture

@BEN - try to bring something to the table. We enjoy insightful and/or meaningful comments and analysis from backers of other teams. Let's leave the chest thumping to the crappy sites. I'll make you a deal - I'll come on here Sunday and congratulate you if VT wins. But if OSU wins, I want to see the same thing - you congratulating us on this site. Deal?

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."          - Groucho Marx

 

+2 HS
CGroverL's picture

Mr. N3t wrote "Hokies not very good"........................"a loss would be an embarrassment"

I don't agree with that as I believe VaTech to be a good team year in and year out, with some great teams thrown in here and there. They have Beamer and Foster who have tons of Hokie experience. In my way of looking at things, in most seasons, VaTech is good enough to beat any team on any given day. Upsets happen all of the time and they are just one of those teams that are usually blessed with talent. I just want to know why that comment has -11 H.S. and why it is only partially visible. Can anyone tell me, please?

"I hope they're last in everything"

Thanks, Urb!

Phillips.449's picture

This is a ridiculous write-up.  Thanks Kyle!

+8 HS
VThustle's picture

Hi everyone, really looking forward to the game on Saturday. Wish I could have fit an away trip into my schedule to visit Columbus, but alas, I'll be watching from a bar here in VA.

As a Hokie fan who reads The Key Play religiously, we're used to these types of awesome write-ups too so I'm glad you guys have someone covering you on your end. I'd encourage any of you who are interested in learning more about VT to visit the site - the guys who break down film are excellent and the site just recently gained media credentials for the new season so there's lots of coverage coming every day.

Good luck on Saturday, should be a good one!

Proud Hokie alum in Northern VA

+15 HS
CGroverL's picture

Now I'm really lost. The write-up was informative and gave many different views on the game. Is ridiculous a word that has a different meaning now? Am I so old that ridiculous means "good" now? The comment has +7 now and I can't figure out why. I'm on my 3rd beer but I can't see this write-up as "ridiculous" unless you mean ridiculously good. I'm lost. A comment like this gets +7 and I write a comment full of sense, backed up by facts and get -10. Something is ridiculous, and it definitely is not me unless I'm just not up with the lingo or you all hate reading anything anyone writes that is over 20 words and like to reward people for calling names like 10 year olds.

"I hope they're last in everything"

Thanks, Urb!

-4 HS
Tater_Schroeder's picture

Wow, I now know more about VT football than I do about myself.

Now the question is if that is my fault or Kyle's for writing such good stuff?

How Firm Thy Friendship

+6 HS
Ben's picture

Yeah.  Great write up.

Ben

-9 HS
CGroverL's picture

OK....thank you for letting me in on the FACT that Mr. Kyle did a great job. With all of the trolls getting blocked out and "ridiculous" meaning "great" I get it now. I thought it was a great job by Mr. Kyle and thought someone was being rewarded for telling him it was junk. I'm old, people. It did seem to me though (after the write up) that we again need #7 to get some big 1st down runs followed by some deep balls on 2nd and short. Foster is a genius of sorts, but I think he may be outthinking himself against this Buckeye offense.

I'm going to predict the Buckeyes first 300 yard passing day since 2010 against Indiana. Their defense plays a bit too much man to man and the Buckeyes have too much speed to be held back. It's not really a prediction, but I think the last 300 yard passing day was Pryor against Indiana in 2010. It wouldn't surprise me to have a couple of long passes and maybe a couple of plays where the speed takes short passes for big gains....adding up to a 300 yard passing game.

We still need #7 for the power rushing game, though.

"I hope they're last in everything"

Thanks, Urb!

seafus26's picture

"Hodges often lined up in the slot and showed more playmaking than blocking ability, but his presence alone at 6'6" and 244 lbs is overwhelming for defensive backs, and is enough to neutralize linebackers and defensive ends in the running game."

Mr. Hodges ability to nuetralize defensive ends, has no been against the likes of Master Joey Bosa.

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

+2 HS
CC's picture

The chances of Joey Bosa being neutralized by a TE are 0.

+15 HS
TheLaw's picture

^FACT^^^ Not gonna happen

^^Written on the Internet, so it MUST be TRUE^^

+2 HS
PortlandBuckeye45's picture
+4 HS
SLVRBLLTS's picture

Bears. Beats. Battlestar Gallactica.

"Because we couldn't go for three"

+5 HS
SaltyD0gg's picture

Question. What is the best kind of bear?

Pain of Discipline
Pain of Regret
Take Your Pick

+2 HS
PortlandBuckeye45's picture

That's such a redic question,there are many types of Be..... FALSE! Black Bear!

Ben's picture

The tight end releases and the full back picks up the DE.  By that time the pass is caught and a gain of 10.

Ben

-10 HS
D-Day0043's picture

I pray that VT assigns a fullback to block Bosa. ;-)

I am D-Day0043 and I approve this message.

+2 HS
Ben's picture

He's not used to block DL.  He is used in the passing game or to hedge LB, which he is more than capable of.  Malleck is the one that would block Bosa. He is heavier and stronger.  

Ben

-10 HS
southernstatesbuckeye's picture

Ben, you're just a loud mouthed troll who joined yesterday to poke OSU fans.  We don't really give a shit about your drunken opinion.  Go back and play with your sister's armpit hair.

+2 HS
seafus26's picture

Good luck with that, Mr. Malleck. 

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

Tampabuckeye85's picture

Actually I believe Bosa is 6'6 285 so I doubt that TE us bigger and stronger.

+1 HS
CC's picture

Mr malleck, meet mr Bosa, don't worry about the inch and 42 pounds you give up.  Your Hokie fans are very confident you will be fine one on one with Bosa.  Don't worry that we haven't seen a tackle that has been able to block him, you'll do fine.

BuckeyeVet's picture

@Seafus26 - I don't know about that - I've Hodge neutralize more than one person on this site.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."          - Groucho Marx

 

TheLaw's picture

Excellent breakdown as always! I think our defensive line will overwhelm the VaTech offensive line. First of all the can only double-team one of Bennett, Bosa or Washington. This leaves the other two plus Steve Miller (who I think will see more of this week as he's a better pass-rusher than Frazier) in head-to-head match-ups. This should be the d-line coming out party we have been eagerly awaiting which will help the secondary and LBs get there footing.

On offense the H-backs will be key as you mentioned just like they will be all season.  In addition to the sweeps I find it hard to believe that the VaTech defense has the speed to hang with Wilson/Marshall on crossing routes in man coverage. Especially with the threat of Devin Smith drawing the safety help deep away from the crossing slot receiver.

^^Written on the Internet, so it MUST be TRUE^^

+1 HS
Ben's picture

You have lost your mind.  VT is every bit as fast as OSU if not faster.  But you will see that on Saturday.  Get ready to be surprised when another team has more than OSU.  You are clearly living in the Big 10 bubble.  Just like last year with Clemson.

Ben

-11 HS
IGotAWoody's picture

The great thing, Ben, is that we're going to find out Saturday night! Is VT as fast as Clemson? I doubt it. Is VT faster than the Bucks? Seriously doubt it. But, it's not all about speed. It's also about scheme, execution and adjustments.

Feel free to come back here and gloat on Sunday, if you prove to be right. Because we all know, we'll hear ZERO from you after the game, if you end up being wrong.

 - License to kill gophers (wolverines, badgers, etc) by the government of the United Nations

+4 HS
cal3713's picture

I personally remember the Clemson game as a 50/50 split.  Both teams were good and could have easily won.

+3 HS
seafus26's picture

Ben, Urban Meyer is faster than Frank Beamer. Nanny nanny boo boo. Our coach can beat up your coach.

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

+2 HS
Leonarjl's picture

Welcome to the 'Shoe JT...Buckeyes by two scores!

JL

+2 HS
bakerjon's picture

Great write up. Good analysis. I agree with the last point, we will see more WR screens and slants to combat this defense. it looks ripe for the picking on these type of plays. Again, we need to establish the run early and often. More straight ahead blocking in the first half especially to settle in the OL and to soften up the defense. Play action off the run to keep them honest when they have 8 in the box like described above. 

Should be interesting!

"It's all ball bearings these days guys"

+1 HS
Ben's picture

If you think screens will work....youtube VT vs. Clemson 2007.  I have never seen so many poor kids get lit up in my life.

Ben

-12 HS
IGotAWoody's picture

OK, now you're just being a troll. 2007, really?

Trolls deserve to be ignored and forgotten.

 - License to kill gophers (wolverines, badgers, etc) by the government of the United Nations

+1 HS
seafus26's picture

Cut him some slack. 2007 might have been  the last year they were even ranked.

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

+2 HS
Optimistic Buckeye Pessimist's picture

The matchup of our offense vs their defense is worrisome.  Have to hope the OL got a lot better.  

And I'm gonna just say it.  If we had Braxton, this game wouldn't be in jeopardy because we'd have experience at QB in defensive recognition, someone who would make them think more about blitzing and an additional ball carrier to restrain the defense on running plays.

Read my entire screen name....

+3 HS
BeijingBucks's picture

I'm worried because this isn't pre snap defensive recognition but post snap blitz pickups and JT's recognition of which man is left open... all in 1/30th of a second

But at least this year I feel like they are making solid in game adjustments to help the new kids succeed

 

 

None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. ~ John Milton

+1 HS
TNBuckeye1421's picture

Great read I really enjoyed it and I will have a lot of things to look for at the game this Saturday. I would be worried about there offense if this was our D from last year but our corners will be pressing not 10 yards off the ball. Our D line will not get run off their spot like W&M. Their blitz on D does concern me and i hope our line figures something out this week but i think we have enough game breakers to score enough to out pace the hokies. 

VTBUCK's picture

This is probably one of the best write ups I've seen in a long time. This game will be won by the OL/DLs. Can't wait for it, very excited.

+4 HS
Ben's picture

I agree.  Best pregame write up I have ever seen. 38-13 VT.

Ben

-10 HS
Dmac3212's picture

Are you a buckeyes fan?

+1 HS
JKH1232's picture

He signed up yesterday, and, he's pretty clearly either a troll, or a fairly deluded VT fan. Or both.  Or mentally ill, I guess you can't really discount that.

+1 HS
WezBuck28's picture

Could Meyer and co kept the play calling to a minimum against navy on purpose, simply because they felt they could win the game with the few plays they did run, also, not giving up too much game study film for the hokies to prepare for? I think we see our playbook open up a bit more this week..

+4 HS
Buckeye On Elba's picture

This is what I'm hoping for. Throughout the Navy game while it was still tight my friends and I were going crazy about the lack of creativity in the playcalling, but once the danger was over, we decided maybe those quick outs and some of the more creative elements we were hoping to see would be better used against VT than Navy. Hopefully that is the true reason. I choose to hope and believe that it is.

+2 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

I'm sure they kept it vanilla against Navy, as Urban did say so, but I think the reason wasn't to hold back info for VT. It was because the Oline is shaky and unproven so far and Barrett needs to learn the rest of the playbook.

Urban will open it up more but until the Oline shows they can handle this, I don't expect a full playbook being used. The TEs will have to stay tight to help block this defense.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+5 HS
IGotAWoody's picture

Also, keep in mind that Meyer is a brilliant tactician. He kept it vanilla because of the Oline and Barrett, which he told us, but it's also highly likely he did so in order to show VT very little.

 - License to kill gophers (wolverines, badgers, etc) by the government of the United Nations

CC's picture

I see this potentially being a low scoring game.  I just don't see them scoring unless we were to do something stupid like we did all last year with the 10 yard corners, a la W&M.  The thought of comparing our defense to W&M is so rediculous it's hard to write.

+1 HS
Ben's picture

It was Tech's first game too.  They started a senior running back that is 5'8' and like 190lbs.  He ran 10 times for 20 yards.  He won't play on Saturday.

Ben

-10 HS
southernstatesbuckeye's picture

Hey Ben, I love your avatar.  You're too embarrassed to use a Hokie symbol.  Pretending to be a Buckeye fan will be the biggest point in your pathetic tiny life.  Visiting here is funny to us.  It doesn't get us riled up.  We love trolls here because we think you're funny.  Keep entertaining us, but alas, on Sunday you will have disappeared into the mists of the internet.  Enjoy you time while you get downvoted into oblivion hell.

+1 HS
45OH4IO's picture

Get ready for a sloppy game from each side offensively. I think it will come down to which young offense can protect the ball and minimize mistakes and which defense can make the most of turnovers with a defensive touchdown or big return. And punting. Winning always comes down to great punting.

+1 HS
Hovenaut's picture

With respect to both head coaches, there will be a special teams play of significance in this game.

Here's to the good guys being the beneficiary.

I am not the Last Dragon, therefore I do not possess the power of the Glow.

+4 HS
Ben's picture

I agree with you.  VT's special teams have sucked the last four years or so.  I think you're right.

Ben

-10 HS
southernstatesbuckeye's picture

And they will suck again Saturday night.

+2 HS
OH1O State's picture

Alabama's 3 Touchdowns on Special Teams against VTech last year would agree with you.

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

+1 HS
jamesrbrown322's picture

I think that a young team with a lot of talent more often feeds off the home crowd, and plays up to the excitement. For that reason, I think that Va. Tech plods along, and does move the ball, but OSU makes more big, explosive plays, and turns Va. Tech into a one-dimensional offense, allowing our studs up front to "pin their ears back" and attack the QB, which is clearly their strength. I expect pretty big games from Samuel, Wilson, Devin, Bosa, and Bennett.

We'll know pretty early, IMO. If OSU doesn't score early, or struggles moving the ball, a la last week, this could get pretty scary. However, ultimately, I do truly believe that this is one of those games where the home crowd can, and will, make a difference.

"I can accept failure, but I cannot accept not trying." - W.W. Hayes

+3 HS
Ben's picture

HaHa.  Your guys are going to be screaming non stop....when OSU is on offense and defense.  No advantage at all.  They just need to suit up and get at it.

Ben

-10 HS
southernstatesbuckeye's picture

Screaming, yes...right past your hapless offensive linemen.

seafus26's picture

Let 'em play all that man to man.  JT may not have Braxton's gears but he can exploit a secondary with their backs to him, with his legs.  Let's show JT some goodl ol' Craig Krenzal footage, and see how he at times would take off or get flushed vs man and chew up some 'give me' yards.

Go Bucks and michigan STILL SUCKS!

+1 HS
BucksLoverInPGH's picture

The BTN showed a recap of the 2002 OSU football championship season this weekend, and in just the few highlights they showed of Krenzel I was amazed.  I forgot how much he actually tucked and ran for key first downs.  He left a lot to be desired as far as athletic skill went, but he was a master of the offense.  The way JT is talked about by his teammates, it makes me believe he's a leader and smart man.  In the Navy game I do remember a few runs that would have to keep a defense honest.  I think his efficient running of the offense will bring us many wins this season.  Can't wait for VT in the Shoe!!

"They're gonna have skill at the skilled positions where guys have great skill sets." - Brady Hoke

VTBUCK's picture

Bottom line, OSU DL is elite, the LB’s are average to above average, and the secondary is average. VT offensive line has to play well against some of these future NFL talents along the DL. If Brewer is being pressured all day, VT won’t be able to take advantage of OSU’s weakness in the defensive back 7. If the OL plays well, VT has a great shot at putting points on the board and leaving the game up to Bud’s D unit.

+2 HS
LeftCoastBuck's picture

The biggest differences between last year's and this year's back 7 are the coverage and the move to a cover 4 scheme. The net effect should be an additional second or so for the OSU big guys to get to Brewer. If that happens, it will be a long day for the Hokies.

"To crush the Wolverines, to see them driven from their stadium, and to hear the lamentation of their fans" Conan the Barbarian (paraphrased) on "what is best in life."

camodog's picture

Is it me? Or do the Hokies look really slow? Seriously though, great write up. I like the slow mo 20 seconds clips. It allows my add to focus on the blocking

+2 HS
bbb's picture

Seconded on the slow-mo, we really need to start doing that

Run_Fido_Run's picture

I don't think they're slow. They're very fast "on the edge" on defense. Their young skill players on offense aren't Wilson or Samuel fast & dynamic, but they're not stiffs, either. This ain't V Tech circa 1996/1997 Jim Drunkenmiller (pre-Vick), when they played like Boston College South (big TEs with cankles). The Buckeyes OL will to have win their fair share of battles at the l-o-s and then the Buckeyes' speed guys on offense will have to make one or two cuts and then get vertical. They won't be able to simply beat V Tech to the corners and outrun their DBs the whole game.

If anything, I'm guessing, Urbz and Herman will try to use V Tech's speed-oriented defense against them - take advantage of overpursuits and/or shift the point-of-attack and then overpower them, etc.

+1 HS
bbb's picture

he was making a joke about the slow-mo videos.

+1 HS
Run_Fido_Run's picture

Yeah, ooops, I skimmed through his comment. Reading is fundamental. 

+1 HS
bbb's picture

Reading is, indeed

JonesSuggsAndHarmony's picture

I know the OP was joking, but yes, this one of the fastest defenses VT has put on the field in quite some time. To put it into perspective, Dadi Nicolas, a 230 lb defensive end, runs a 4.4 40 (and has a 41" vert). He was the second fastest guy on the team according to winter testing numbers. The only guy that beat him is a back-up LB. Dadi is definitely someone to keep an eye on, his athleticism is just absurd.

My biggest concern is with the apparent lack of size, we may be susceptible to a power-rushing attack (Andre Williams tore us a new one last year). We're all very thankful that Hyde graduated.

I'm hoping Foster will have the defense prepared for mis-direction, but that will definitely be something to watch. Foster's scheme is an aggressive one and often times it only takes one missed tackle to break a big play.

+3 HS
Bobo Buckeye's picture

As for taking advantage of overpursuits, I think thats a way this game could get out of control for VT.  Not trying to come off as a homer here, as I really think this game will feel close, but the cost of agressive playcalling on D comes at tremendous risk.  Furthermore, I think Urban with the players he has in skill positions are exactly the people to explore those opportunities.

+1 HS
Run_Fido_Run's picture

Great analysis. A few non-technical points . . .

Buckeyes' offense v. V Tech defense: I didn't watch V Tech's game against W&M, but if you review the play by play, it looks like W&M actually had pretty good success moving the ball against Foster's defense. On paper, W&M had 193 net total yards offense, but they only ran 51 plays and V Tech racked up like -50 yards from sacks. Otherwise, W&M was able to get about 5.3 yards per play when they weren't getting sacked on 3rd and longs, which underlines the main key addressed by Kyle in this article.

Partly for that reason, I expect to see JT run a handful of QB draws in this game and not just on 3rd down. Hopefully, he'll make Gary Danielson eat his words for comparing JT's running ability to Chris Leak's.   

Buckeyes' defense v. V Tech offense: the key for the defense here is to create "controlled chaos" even if that involves taking some risks (while maintaining good discipline and fundamentals, of course). It's at night in a raucous 'Shoe, with V Tech using a bunch of frosh and sophomores, breaking in a new QB and somewhat new offensive system. At a minimum, V Tech will have communications problems, but if the Silver Bullets can create chaos and anxiety, the V Tech offensive players are likely to get flustered and maybe ultimately have a full-scale meltdown. Also, because V Tech's frosh power backs like to drag tacklers for extra yards, hopefully they Silver Bullets can swarm to the ball, tie up the RB, and get a strip or two.

The Buckeyes can blow this game open with turnovers, big plays, special teams, noise, and chaos - basically, out Beamerball 'em.

+4 HS
d5k's picture

I think Danielson in typical fashion confused Urban's comparison to Chris Leak as a dig on JT's running rather than praise for JT's accuracy and decision making.  I believe he even said JT is worse than Alex Smith at running which is probably unfair although Smith was underrated as a runner.

+1 HS
Run_Fido_Run's picture

I agree about Alex Smith, but I had to laugh when Danielson listed Smith as one of Urbz's "dynamic" running threats at QB, in contrast to the slow plodders like JT and Leak.

In terms of open field dynamism, JT ain't in the same ballpark as Brax - very, very few are - but he'll be a better running threat than the (underrated-as-a-ball-carrier) Alex Smith and he'll make the Leak comparisons seem really stupid in retrospect. I actually have high hopes for JT as a behind the -l-o-s scrambler and as an opportunistic runner (e.g., impromptu 3rd-and-short pickups).

On designed read-option plays, JT will be a bit better than Guiton (who, himself, was an underrated runner because of his craftiness and understanding of the offense).

Ben's picture

Man you Big Ten boys are insane.  Do you think VT has never played major college football teams?  Are you high?  I knew a guy who was a Michigan fan once.  He was the most obnoxious fan I've ever met but after reading this blog, you guys are right there with him.  What makes you think your guys are any better than VT's?  I truly think you will be shatting your pants come this Saturday night.  VT has nothing to lose and the QB, Brewer, will in no way be intimidated.  That is simply not his MO.  If you guys get pressure maybe you win but for all of you guys to think OSU has better skill position players....stop paying attention to the stars and pay more attention to results.

Ben

-11 HS
Buckeye06's picture

Results? What results should I look at that point towards VT winning this game?  Should I look to the 8-5 team from last year? 7-6 in 2012?

The D that is better than anything OSU has ever seen gave up 34 points to BC last year, and 42 to UCLA.  No one on here has discounted V.T. as a legit opponent, but the only position on the entire field where I may take VTs players over OSU's is at corner.  V.T. can win the game, but they are the team that needs breaks to come out with a W.  If both teams play their "A" game, OSU wins by 10+

+6 HS
Bobo Buckeye's picture

We once had a running back named Saine.  I remember his wheel routes at the rosebowl and get warm and fuzzy inside.  Does that make me insane?

+1 HS
TexasBuck11's picture

Brewer's mo is precisely to be intimidated. That's why he transferred from Texas tech. A walk on qb and then a freshman took his starting role. Best of luck to y'all Saturday. Should be a great game

+1 HS
bbb's picture

I really like the slow-motion replays that the Key Play posts. 11w should really start that, it helps me digest the play quite a bit better

+4 HS
GOSU's picture

I think this is a low scoring game - especially if the rain is a factor, which may be the case based upon weather forecasts.  While I think that Ohio State wins, I would be surprised (but not upset ;)) should they win by more than 10.  I think they take it 17-13.  

Thanks again for the good write-up.  It's hard to analyze and generate this type of solid information so early into the season.

yrro's picture

Slo mo is nice, but nothing beats the freeze frame GIFs some of the NFL sites use.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/steelers-film-room/2013/11/26/51463...

Freeze frame with text description and highlighting, followed by slow mo, followed by freeze frame... and on automatic infinite repeat. It's beautiful.

I have absolutely no idea how much time it takes to make, though. Probably a ton.

Nairion's picture

Thanks for the writeup. With man coverage and 1 deep safety, does that leave us the deep or deep comebacks against slower LBs?

Ben's picture

YOUR LINEBACKERS ARE SLOWER THAN VT'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   VT'S ARE SMALLER.  GD you mother F's are insane.

Ben

-11 HS
Nairion's picture

Hey Ben, I dont normally feed trolls, but I meant your LBs would be matched up against faster receivers. Not that your LBs were slower than ours.

Thanks for the reply. Good luck Saturday!

+9 HS
Nairion's picture

Sorry Ben,
By the time I posted this you had already lost your posting privileges. Hope you log in again under a new name and continue the insightful dialogue.

Best of luck to your team. Should be a fun matchup. :)

+3 HS
cplunk's picture

I am waaayyyyyy less comfortable about this game than the majority of Bucks fans seem to be.

Va Tech and Bud Foster have made a living off good defensive lineplay and creating turnovers. We have a brand new offensive line that struggled in some of its one on one matchups against Navy and a redshirt freshman QB. That is bothersome.

I also see an assumption that our defense will keep scoring low. I don't think Va Tech has a very good offense, but the last time we saw our defense play against a non-option team it was shredded. yes, I know we have a new system and some different players, but I see way too many people assuming that "new" means "better". Our d-line is great. I have no info to show me our linebackers or secondary are improved over last year.

I think we win, but I think there are going to be a lot of nervous Buckeye fans on Saturday. It also isn't nearly as out of question as many seem to think that we could lose. Our talent is better, period. But games are won in the individual matchups and schemes.

+4 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

Last I saw, this team was putting up 30+ points the last time we saw our offense play against a non Navy team (well, also against Navy). What makes you assume this team can't score on Va Tech. Last I knew this team scored on better defenses (MSU and Clemson).

I know its a new QB but I see too many people assuming "new" means "worse". Our Oline isn't great, but I have no information to show me our receivers and running backs aren't improved over last year.

(see, it can go both ways)

Yes this team can lose to Va Tech, you are right that people are thinking this is an automatic win, but pointing out that OSU matches up well vs a team that really hasn't been relevant in years isn't exactly saying they are underestimating the opponent. By saying you think OSU will win you are saying you are as confident as much as we are.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+2 HS
Dmac3212's picture

I personally think va techs defense last year was better than michigan state. Clemson was a way overrated defense....they got shredded in multiple games. If you go back and watch the michigan state... A majority of tOSU success came from broken plays from Braxton. He put the team on his back when we got down 17-0. I really don't get why so many buckeye fans can admit there going be in for a dog fight ( Good chance jt might be a Little over his head). Then as soon as the game ends the same fans say how could navy was for example. I expect ohio state to win a close low scoring game. 

cplunk's picture

This team hasn't put up points on offense against anybody other than Navy. Four of five linemen are different, the top RB is gone, the top WR is gone, the centerpiece QB is gone. What is it that has led you to believe this team can put up points?

I do think we'll win, but like I said I think we have not proven nearly what people seem to assume we have. And my saying that I think we'll win does not mean I am as confident as others......I can think OSU will win but struggle or I can think OSU will win by 30 or I can think OSU will win by 30 and bet my car on it. Not the same confidence level but all three think we'll win.

Not trying to be a downer. I really like JT Barrett's potential and I think Warriner will eventually do great things with our line. I just think I see way too many people assuming we're just going to coast. Of course we could, in which case I'll just be happy and not at all care that I was more nervous.

Ultimately it doesn't matter and what happens on the field resolves it all. Just saying I don't agree with the large number of posts I've seen on the site thinking this is a blowout.

+1 HS
Optimistic Buckeye Pessimist's picture

I'm with you CPLUNK.  We really haven't proven anything yet.  We should have moved up and down the field and scored at will against an outmatched Navy defense.  We didn't.  We knew how much we prepared for Navy's option attack and they still gained 370 yards on the ground.  

Both teams are very young and inexperienced.  OSU plays at home, so we've got that going for us.  But VT has a defensive identity.  I'm not sure we have one yet.  My hope is that our talent and experience in the defensive front 7 will limit VT's running game and pressure the QB enough to keep the points low enough for our offense.  Realistically, this game, as many do, will come down to mistakes, big and small and quantity.

Read my entire screen name....

Ben's picture

So you really think Clemson's defense is better than VT's.  Man, you are in for a surprise.  They were down two years because of Logan Thomas.  He sucked.  Before that they won 10 for eight years straight.  This is a terrible match up for OSU this early in the season.

Ben

-11 HS
Killer nuts's picture

I'm glad to see the eleven warriors community effectively eradicated another troll today 

+1 HS
AltaBuck's picture

Ben....."There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?"

I have been known on occasion to howl at the moon. - Crash Davis

BulldogBuckeye's picture

BEN, Most of your ranting is off-base any way, but this one is laughable. It shows how blind you are to reality. Logan Thomas is on an NFL roster...Coach Loeffler (who coached such horrible quarterbacks as Tom Brady) said to our staff in June that Thomas is the best QB he had ever coached. Sometimes when the rest of the pieces aren't in place, a great QB can struggle. I usually don't even like reading these things, because I know what you are trying to do, but your ignorance abounds...

Go Bucks!

+1 HS
TURD_BUCKET's picture

Great scouting report Mr. Jones!

Lets see what the staff and UFM do with the talent in their arsenal on both sides of the ball. Time for the playmakers to step forward and identify themselves to Buckeye Nation.

GO BUCKEYES!!!!!

“Being average means you are as close to the bottom as you are to the top.”

+1 HS
Zimmy07's picture

I think I saw 10 VT penalties in the box score.  Did anyone watch the game & know the story with those?

Kyle Jones's picture

Lots of false starts, but a handful of illegal formation and procedure penalties you'd expect from a unit with lots of freshmen.

Mookie331's picture

Hokies looked really efficient moving the ball on William & Mary. And William & Mary is always a strong test. 

+4 HS
Ben's picture

So is Navy's defense.  

Ben

-11 HS
Qujo's picture

Yep - William and Mary plays in a league that features powerhouses Elon and Drexel and Delaware. I am of the opinion Navy's a much tougher opponent. William and Mary RPI #153. Navy RPI 79. Navy expected to win 9-10 games this year. W&M?

"Tough times don't last, tough people do" - Gregory Peck

+1 HS
THEOSUfan's picture

I played back in the day, and I used to be absorbed into the x's and o's.

I think I'm getting old because the way John Madden describes the x's and o's batttle is getting more and more appealing: "This guy runs over here, and boom, and then that guy runs past until this other guy comes up, and then another boom."  Good enough.

But I still appreciate something a little more detailed.  Thanks

+1 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

you forgot to talk about Brett Favre in there.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+3 HS
D-Day0043's picture

And Madden's amazing analysis - "the team that wins will probably be the one that scores the most points."

I am D-Day0043 and I approve this message.

BAR43's picture

This is a bit of a scary game. However, the one thing that does help is VT running a hurry up offense. Navy was good at slowing down the game and keeping the ball out of our offenses hands. This was probably the single biggest advantage they had. Now VT has a better defense, but I am confident that our offense having the ball more will still help us out tremendously. If there is one thing our offense needs to get better it is more reps, the more they have the ball the more they mesh, this was seen late in Navy game.

+1 HS
Dougger's picture

This is also why Larry Johnson wants a lot of guys rotating: 60 plays at 100% is better than 100 plays at 60%... or something like that.

Go bucks

I like football

+1 HS
BeijingBucks's picture

well 60% of our guys going 150% approximately 70% of the time is also less desirable than 150% (those blocking TEs?) of our line working together for 4-11 seconds 100% of the time or something and so forth

 

 

None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. ~ John Milton

Citrus's picture

FANTASTIC write up. Well-done. Its articles like this that make the site great.

Squirrel Master's picture

Since the Rover and Whip are fairly undersized, their goal in this front is to act as the "Force" player in outside runs, using their speed to get upfield quickly and forcing the ball carrier to cut back into the heart of the defense.

yeah, good luck with that when Dontre or Jalin are ready to fly through and all that is left is a single high safety to stop them from going to the house. We'll see who puts pressure on who because I am confident that Herman and Urban will find ways to exploit high pressure defense run by Va Tech. If they get too aggressive, they could find themselves easily out of the play and down 7 more points.

It won't be a cake walk that is for sure but I am confident this team spent that first half against Navy figuring it out. I think they will be fine.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+1 HS
BAR43's picture

Agreed. Not to mention if VT plans to blitz and play man press I have a feeling this could be a great breakout game for our TE's. Short passes and lack of coverage, great combination.

RBuck's picture

You trying to scare me Kyle? It didn't work.

"It's just another case of there you are". ~ Doc (1918-2012)

+2 HS
Burritos Noches's picture

 Far too often, both the tackles and the tight ends resorted to attempting cut blocks rather than keeping their feet and driving those ends across the hole. 

Great. Nothing safer for a star studded defensive line like some last ditch effort cut blocks. May your knees and ankles have extra strength this weekend, gentlemen.

"3 yards and a cloud of dust" - Woody "Pow Right In The Kisser" Hayes

+2 HS
Kurt's picture

I had no idea until this post that VT (and Loeffler) have gone to a spread offense.  It seemed VT was wasting a great amount of talent (especially at QB) the past 5 years by sticking with a classic Pro-Style and I didn't think Beamer would ever convert. 

Seattle Linga's picture

So excited for kickoff - V-Tech should be waving the white flags by the mid-4th Q.

+1 HS
Barnsey69's picture

Bravo Kyle, excellent work. And I concur, The Key Play is a nice site with friendly VT fans who know they're team well.

Gonna be a good one, but I think OSU pulls it out and kicks that lunch pail off the bench by the 4th quarter.

GO BUCKS!

Thank the Maker that I was born in Ohio, cradle of coaches, US Presidents, confederate-stomping Generals, and home of The Ohio State University Football Buckeyes!

+1 HS
BucksHave7's picture

OMG.....didn't realize how Va Tech dominated William and Mary, that is scared stuff!

Seriously?   Are we really watching game film from William and Mary????????

BucksHave7

73buckeye's picture

I don't know when I've enjoyed reading a troll more than "Ben". He clearly thinks VT has better talent than the Bucks and are going to win. He's clearly delusional, but his enthusiasm is commendable. Everyone needs fans like that. Reminds me of some of our friends from up north. VT has a chance, and may win, but it will be because something weird happens, (penalties, turnovers, asteroid impact, or something even more unlikely.) It won't be because VT has better talent. 

ernie

+2 HS
southernstatesbuckeye's picture

Dear Ben, I know you've been shunted away to the land of silence, but I'm pretty sure your morbid curiosity is bringing you back to at least read our responses to you.  Hey, buddy, we really love you guys.  You're like little brothers we like to give wedgies and noogies to, and then send outside to play with the other children.  I really don't see your Pokies surviving this game with a win, but I for one, have thoroughly enjoyed the good natured slapping we gave you.  Feel free to create another name and come back tomorrow night for a little more of the same.

You guys are funny.

Now run along and play.

+2 HS
Homey1970's picture

I vote for "Ben" as Troll of the Year...if there is such a thing.

Brutus Forever's picture

Hey Ben,

Remind me what VT's BCS bowl record was again LOL

"I learned to dislike Michigan at a very young age.” – Urban F. Meyer

Young_Turk's picture

I am so impressed with the quantity and quality of information in this article.  Kudos to you and 11W.  Expect a bonus when I renew my subscription!

BucksHave7's picture

Ben, Question: How far away from Mike Vick's place could you hear the dog's barking?  

BucksHave7

buckeye phi's picture

That was a nice, informative piece.  Thank you!

The bottom line remains the same, though.  The o-line has to really step up this week and the new coverage schemes need to be effective.

Barrett looked pretty good in the opener.  Everything else seems to be in place for success.

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. - Will Rogers

BuckeyeMike74's picture

Glad we  waited all offseason for this.