Offtopicland. This still isn't the place to discuss politics, religion, or hot-button social issues, however.
I mean seriously...
Depending on who did it, it's either an act of terrorism (Separatists) or war (Russia). Either way, Russia is behind it as they have been supplying the separatists with weapons. That's the reason it was reported yesterday the separatists were at the crash scene first, and didn't allow responders in until they found the black box and sent it to Moscow (this was in an early article, not sure if it's been confirmed). I think there is a no politics policy on these forums, so I'm going to refrain from saying what I think will happen next [mod: You got to like the two yard line and fumbled. No politics means no politics.]
The commenting policy does state no politics, JK, so let's stay away from that.
FWIW, and I haven't seen or read much into the situation, the crash is a tragedy with loved ones lost and lives affected. But how that may have come to be might not be the best discussion here.
Thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims.
"Success...it's what you do with what you got" - Woody Hayes
Like my mother used to say: If you can't say anything that won't violate the 11W commenting policy, don't say anything at all.
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 1 Corinthians 9:24
Inní mér syngur vitleysingur
Seriously. One day, I'm going to get cranky and hammer not only the people that can't avoid saying political things, but also the people that upvote someone saying something that's clearly political. Keep 11W great, please.
Sad day, thoughts and prayers with those affected!
A little is better than nada, sometimes you want the whole enchilada
A: an asshole.
It's ridiculous that there are people in our world who do things like this.
If that aircraft was flying at cruise at altitudes, I don't see how it could be the seperatists. No way that Russia gives them that kind of surface to air technology. My guess is a lethargic, trigger happy, Russian military is to blame.
"Evil shenanigans!" - Mac
I used to be in an Air Defense unit in the Army, so my first reaction was similar -- how in the heck did they manage to shoot down a commercial aircraft? Because of their weight and size, their take off speed is pretty high, so you aren't going to hit it with an RPG without being directly under it with the perfect angle of approach, and even then it would be a pretty lucky shot. To have any realistic chance, you need guided missiles. Where do you get guided missiles? Russian weapons manufacturers or the US military. Seeing as stinger missiles are not intuitive to lock on and fire without training and practice (Metal Gear Solid is nothing like the real thing FYI), and I'm sure the Russian equivalents are the same, it really makes me wonder...
Stuff like this pisses me off.
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The first man gets the Oyster, the second man gets the shell.
Question - I didn't think a ground launched Stinger could hit a plane at a 33,000 ft cruise (supposedly what the passenger jet was at)? I thought you would need something bigger?
You need something bigger. Most news outlets think it was a BUK system which would have a much higher altitude.
From everything I've read/heard a Buk system is lethal up to 72,000 feet.
“The teams that don’t respect their coaches and don’t trust their coaches are the teams that go .500"
That's probably more info than I can give you and it sounds about right. Jane's aircraft probably has info about it on their website.
My thought exactly. This isnt something some terrorist picked up and shot towards the sky. They had to have some sort of training.
[Mod: No politics means no politics. How hard is that to remember?]
Go Buckeyes! Go Bengals! Go Reds!
My true love will always be Rosie
On the bright side, they can't take the international space station away from us twice. Lol
(Metal Gear Solid is nothing like the real thing FYI)
You mean to tell me that Metal Gear Solid is not realistic????
You're going to stand there and tell me that Metal Gear Solid is nothing like real life? I hide in cardboard boxes and put people in sleeper holds on a regular basis.
Ya I'm Aircrew. Probably not quite the expertise you have but certainly some situational awareness with surface to air defense systems. I know the system they used. At least, it has the hallmarks of the specific system. That system does not come cheap. It's premier. I have a hard time believing Russia gave it to them. But apparently there was one in the area already. At the very least, Russia trained the separatists how to use it. It's feasable.
The 'separatists' were reported to have captured 9k37 Buk (SA-11) at the end of June and a launch vehicle was photographed by an AP reporter in the area of the shoot down the day before. They also bragged about shooting down another Ukrainian aircraft before deleting the claim after the story broke that it was a civilian 777.
Ya an SA11 is what I heard.
Before many of you were born, back in the 1980s when Ronald Reagan was president, the USSR shot down a passenger jet that accidently flew over the Kamchatka Peninsula with two fighters jets. So they have a history of this kind of stuff. USSR = Russia.
While that was before I was around, it was also pretty different.
I'd like to see this topic deleted before it gets out of control when we are reminded the US Navy shot down an Iranian passenger jet.
So wait, you just brought up the thing you hoped this thread got deleted before someone brought it up? Am I reading that right?
That was cute but not really the point.
the same kind of sickos who would shoot missles at 4 boys playing soccer on a beach.
So... Israel shot down the plane?
“In the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught.” ~ Baba Dioum
Well as far as I've heard I haven't even been officially removed as a suspect. That Netanyahu guy.
More importantly than who did it is where does it lead? I'd like to think we can have a discussion about possible war without jumping into political nonsense. It has seemed like some sort of conflict has been coming, I wonder if this becomes a tipping point.
I think the end result is that people will realize those commie bastards are up to the same old crap and trying to annex their neighbor.
It's Russia's fault. They either gave the separatist the high altitude SAM system or Russian troops shot it down. Somebody had already shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane and fighter plane in that area over the last two weeks.
The russians are the world leaders in weapons proliferation. It's no coincidence that all the bad guys of the world are toting ak-47s.
It also doesn't hurt that they're cheap, abundant, and indestructible.
and made in a lot of countries outside of russia as well, people forget its just the design thats russian
Then 'Murica went and milled the receiver; now it is amazing.
Russia has shot down civilian aircraft before and they damn well will do it again.
Why? Cause fuck em that's why.
"if irony were made of strawberries, we' d all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."
Because Putin will come out and say "Wasn't us" and anyone in Russia that challenges him on it is doing so at their own peril. Nobody internationally will make too big of a stink because nobody wants a global conflict over one accidental downing of an airliner.
It's so clear that Russia is behind this and they're so brazen about it. The separatists steal the black box and first thing they do is send it to Moscow. The Russian news station that broadcasts all over the world RT has had several reporters quit in recent months because the Kremlin is strong-arming bosses to manipulate the news and blame Ukraine.
Putin is a madman!
This thread probably shouldn't be on here.
And then I told her...i'm no weatherman, but tonight's forecast is calling for several inches!
I am not sure why you would suggest this thread shouldnt be on here. I have only seen one person who made any post about our current president.
This is a global issue that really has nothing to do with politics and more to do with an authoritarian, corrupt, dictator who is hell-bent on returning Russia to "glory" and dominating Asia.
Nice pic GH - and this is his happy face
Hot button issue surely to bring out some controversial emotional feelings. I'll pass.
Mark my words..I don't need acceptance. I'm catching interceptions on you innocent pedestrians.
I, too, have learned my lesson.
When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.
"I can accept failure, but I cannot accept not trying." - W.W. Hayes
I'm hardly a defender of Russia or Ukraine, but I was talking to a guy from Switzerland (German native) recently and he opened my eyes to an issue that I didn't realize: Russia almost has to "control" Ukraine (their tactics may be undesirable) because Russia's only access to a shipping port that doesn't freeze in the winter months runs through Ukraine. Thus, Russia gets even more shut off from the world if it allows Ukraine to take its ball and go home. I'm sure it's 1,000 times more complicated than that, but it was an interesting take from someone who lives near the region. This conversation happened before the recent plane incident FWIW.
While Russia does indeed suffer some geographic issues regarding sea access that most major nations don't face, Sevastopol is not it's only ice-free port. It's not even Russia's only port on the Black Sea. There is Novorossiysk & Taman was being expanded before the de facto annexation of Crimea.
Murmansk & Baltiysk (Kaliningrad) are also major ice free ports and there are a number of smaller ones which could easily be expanded.
Thanks ... I didn't realize that
From the Russian perspective it's a real issue, it just tends to get oversold. It's one of those areas where the Russians tend to be a bit paranoid. Encroachment from Europe is another (can you say 'Ukraine's attempts to join NATO'?).
The port is desirable for military purposes. And even though Russia was already operating it, the Ukraine was able to dictate terms. The Ukraine owed Russia a lot of money and was able to use the port as leverage. Taking Crimea removed the Ukraine's leverage and returns monetary gains directly back to the USSR, errr... Russia...
I touched on it a bit when I mentioned Novorossiysk & Tartas. Back in the late 90's when there was a belief that the Ukraine would never extend the lease at Sevastopol, plans were made to expand Novorossiysk to the point where it could handle the entire Black Sea fleet. Work was started about a decade ago (04-05 range) and the heavy lifting (dredging the bay & expanding pier/dock space) was completed last year. The main work that remains is primarily land side infrastructure (fuel & ammunition storage etc). It was scheduled to be completed by 2017 (the end date of the original lease) but all construction was stopped after the invasion/liberation/civil war in the Ukraine.
From a practical standpoint the Russian Navy doesn't need Sevastopol as Novorossiysk is capable of handling the entire Black Sea fleet.
Tartus is in it's own way even more important as it provides direct access to the Med without needing to transit the Bosphorus. Russia started investing heavily in expansion of the facilities there back in 08 with the goal of it being their primary Naval base in the Med.
Russia still got their cake and ate it too.
Buckeye fan from PA
ESPN reporting that it must have been someone who played for Meyer at Florida.
Since the early 1900's, Russian communists have murdered tens of millions. I guess they thought no one would notice another 295.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
Karl Marx, you mad bro?
edit...LOL @ being downvoted for telling the plain truth
It was Howard Stern.... You did see the MSNBC burn didn't you?
Some of this stuff that goes on in the world is absolutely terrible. My prayers out to the families affected!!
"You'll find out that nothing that comes easy is worth a dime. As a matter of fact, I never saw a football player make a tackle with a smile on his face." -- Wayne Woodrow Hayes
For those who may be interested, Tom Clancy's last novel (God rest his soul) Command Authority is eerily close to all of the things that are happening in the Ukraine and Crimea right now. Great read if you don't mind 800 pages. May the peace that surpasses all understanding be with the families of those affected by this heinous act.
"Stand and Deliver!"
Germany in the 1930s
Host Olympic Games
Invade territory in neighboring countries and claim that it's to protect ethnic Germans
Start a war in Europe
Russia in the 2010s
Host Olympic Games
Invade territory in neighboring countries and claim that it's to protect ethnic Russians
That's a convoluted version of history lol
Clearly the Russian separatists thought it was military and then realized after the fact that that wasn't the case. They claimed responsibility for shooting down a military plane and then rescinded it after the news broke it was civilian
I'd agree at this point. BUT at the same time, I don't put much stock when a lot of these militant groups make claims like this. It has been proven to be propaganda in many many cases. Terrorist groups are especially notorious for this. As is Iran (lol).