Weave77's picture


MEMBER SINCE   January 01, 2015

Recent Activity

Comment 05 Dec 2019

How many 35 year olds are toting the ball in the NFL? None.

I get what you are saying and agree, but I do want to point out that Frank Gore (36) and Adrian Peterson (34) are have over a thousand yards between them so far this season. Obviously, though, they are the exception, not the rule.

Comment 03 Dec 2019

Maybe I should be a mindless homer like yourself so I can load up on helmet stickers.

You certainly know how to win friends and influence people, Spanky.

Comment 02 Dec 2019

So, does anyone have any clue as to how Chris Petersen stepping down at Washington will affect our chances of landing J.T. Tuimoloau and Emeka Egbuka?

Comment 22 Nov 2019

So you're saying Dr. Waters had been in charge for two years, and in that time he was unable to effect the changes necessary to end the practices within the marching band that caused the investigation.

I am saying that the culture of a 140+ year old civilian institution comprised of teenage and 20-something students does not change overnight, regardless of what you might think. Also, bear in mind that the "scandal" was incredibly tame and overblown for a college group- it mainly centered around the sexually suggestive nicknames and the “Midnight Ramp” tradition that dated back to the 1960s (something the university was aware of for years before Waters became the band director), where band members marched into the stadium in their underwear. Waters retained the overwhelming support of both then current and former band members both before and after his firing, many of whom maintained that the University was fine with all activities until they generated unfavorable press.

That doesn't make him a scapegoat.

Yes... yes, it does.

He accepted accountability for TBDBITL when he signed his contract. That means when shit hit the fan, he had to be ready to answer for it. Knowing there was an active investigation going on, his first and primary order of business should've been to root out the problems and fix it.

According to sworn testimony from Waters, the University gave him no directive to make changes to the band's culture upon his hire, with all of his efforts towards that end coming from his own initiative. The investigation came as the result of a "concerned parent", and from what I've heard from friends who are former band members, it was extremely overblown.

I served for 30 years in an organization that held traditions dating back over a century. Traditions that resulted in physical injury to Sailors. We stamped the worst of those out in less than 90 days.

So you are saying that, while in serving in the Navy (a military organization that prides itself on order and discipline), after years and years of extreme hazing traditions that lead to the severe humiliation, sexual assault, injury, and even death of a number of individuals, the order was passed down to stop the worst of the hazing, or else face court martial/dishonorable discharge/imprisonment? And they were able to mostly do it in 90 days?

Forgive me, but that's not particularly impressive. Nor is it in any way comparable to Jon Waters/Ohio State Marching Band situation.

And by the way, it doesn't look like the Navy's attempts to crack down on hazing were entirely effective.

By all accounts Dr. Waters was a great director, and he was loved by the members of TBDBITL.

Finally, we agree on something.

But that doesn't mean he was the best person to try to change the culture. Sometimes you need someone from the outside, who didn't grow up there, who's vision isn't skewed based on being a part of the culture.

Maybe that's the case. But the Drake didn't try to find out. According to testimony, there was no effort on the part of the University to work towards "improving" the band culture- or even giving Waters a clear directive on what they wanted in that regard. Instead, Drake just shifted all blame to his scapegoat the moment there was outside pressure.

And it doesn't appear that his termination has ruined his life or his career.  He's currently employed at a university as a band director.

According to his wiki page, Jon Waters was hired as the band director at Heidelberg University, a tiny, private university in located in Tiffin, Ohio that has 1,000 undergrad students and an endowment of $44 million. Clearly, you and I have a different idea of what a ruined career looks like.

Lastly, you state that Drake has a trend of finding scapegoats to blame for issues.  Who exactly should Drake have held accountable for the issues in the band or with Zach Smith?  And how do you make the leap from two incidents to it being a trend, who tho other evidence? 

With regards to the band, no one. The controversy was immensely over-blown, brought about by an overly-concerned parent and an overreaction by the university, given more severe hazing incidents in the past. After Waters was fired, the utter incompetence of the so-called "investigation" came to light. Multiple witnesses came forward, claiming that their testimony had been used completely out of context, and a Title IX coordinator alleged that she was prevented from doing her job by the university with regards to investigating the incidents in question. In short, there was much ado about nothing, and after a shoddy investigation, a beloved band leader was fired without just cause "just to be safe".

With regards to the Zach Smith incident, it has all been rehashed on this site time and time again, but Drake was pushing for Urban Meyer's firing against the recommendation of all but one of the board of directors, and only relented when Urban was given an (undeserved) 3 game suspension.

And how do you make the leap from two incidents to it being a trend, who tho other evidence? 

My dear NavyBuckeye, two incidents like that within a 5 year period IS a trend. 

I get it. You disagree with his decisions. But have you ever been in a position where you've had to make those kinds of calls?  They are incredible difficult.

No, I haven't. And I agree, those in authority often have to make very difficult decisions. But don't act like Drake was Harry Truman given the green light to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima... the decision to fire Waters was confounding and utterly inappropriate.

Regardless, the reason that Drake was in his position as University president was to get those decisions right. And his failure to do so probably played no small role in him soon leaving that position.

Comment 21 Nov 2019

Are you aware that the Department of Education had been investigating the University for four years regarding the marching band?

Yes I am. Are you aware that Jon Waters had been band director for only two of those years, and was working with the university to scale back and/or remove the "traditions" that had been the root of the complaints and subsequent investigation?

Drake showed up in Jan 2014 and was handed a huge pile of shit as his first order of business. The decision to fire Waters in July 2014 caused the DOE to end its investigation early.

I absolutely agree with that statement. I disagree with you in the thinking that Drake was correct to scapegoat an innocent man and thus completely destroy his career because it was the convenient thing to do.

Had Drake’s predecessor done something about it, one way or the other, before leaving, Drake never would’ve had to get involved.

Sure, but that in no way, shape, or form excuses what Drake did.

Terminating subordinates is the worst part of any supervisor’s job. I doubt he took it lightly. And when it comes as a result of issues within the subordinate’s power, it’s not “throwing them under the bus.”

From a recorded conversation at a board meeting, it certainly does seem like he took it likely. At any rate, it doesn't matter when the issues and investigation (and once again, this is important) preexisted Jon Waters as band director. 

Finding a convenient scapegoat is a trend for Drake's career. Because of the backlash against his stupid decisions, we know of two of those instances, but who knows how many times it happened without fanfare over the course of his career? My guess is quite a bit.

Comment 21 Nov 2019

Are you even aware of the circumstances of that situation???  Of course you aren't.

Apparently more so than you. The "issues" with the band, as minor as they were, preexisted Waters, and he taken documented steps to correct them in his two years on job. Yet, once they became public, Drake needed a scapegoat to protect his reputation, and despite have zero culpability or guilt, Waters was fired. 

NO ONE is bigger than The Ohio State University.  Not the football coach and not the band director.

Agreed. But that list also should include "university president", which you somehow left out.

I swear, some of you folks remind be of Jo Pa apologists, thinking that one's behavior and actions means nothing if you win games.

To compare Joe Pa to Jon Waters is like comparing Andrew Jackson to the Cherokee who died on the Trail of Tears... which is to say, a terrible comparison. 

Comment 21 Nov 2019

...says a person who have never in their entire life dealt with bigotry.

And how would you know that, Cricejr? I'm an anonymous person on an internet message board, so it would be pretty impressive for you to determine that about me with nothing other than a fairly generic username to go by.

This is like me saying that although I have never been to space and know nothing about it, I'm sure that establishing a colony on Mars is as easy as doing so here.

I never said nor implied that being a university president is easy. I never said nor implied that overcoming bigotry is easy. What I DID say, however, is that "encountering bigotry and hate in no way qualifies a person to lead a university". 

If being hated by bigots qualifies a person to lead one of the world's largest universities, Ohio State is certainly in luck, because apparently they have a qualified candidate pool in the hundreds of millions, if not billions, for the soon to be empty position of university president.

Comment 21 Nov 2019

Ehhh, I think this is a pretty poor take. Encountering bigotry and hate in no way qualifies a person to lead a university, and many of his decisions, such as his firing of Jon Waters, have reeked of protecting his personal reputation, rather than that of the university.

Good riddance, I say.