Steve Miller. Yes, the ball was thrown right to him but what DE expects that to happen? And then to be sure-handed enough to pull it in and the wheels to take it to the house. Unheralded player. Best play by an Ohio State DE in my lifetime. The moment seals it.
So you can’t find a Native American group that supports the name and yet there are plenty who do not. Yeah, maybe there’s someone like Elizabeth Warren our there who is 1/124 Native American who likes the team name. I don’t know. That’s possible.
We aren’t going to agree. That’s fine. I’d only ask that you not misrepresent my position. I never said or argued any position that the club was mocking themselves. They are and have been insensitive to the Native American people by choosing to portray them as a caricature that is to be feared.
Which Native American group celebrates the name “Indians”? Serious question. I tried to find one and could not. Found plenty of groups that oppose it. There are probably quite a few Native Americans who are ambivalent to it, but I’ve found none that celebrate it.
That’s not my opinion. That’s your twisted way of interpreting my position without engaging in critical thinking. Again, your assumption is that all mascots that represent a group of people must be good representations with good intent. That is a very very poor assumption. We have a unique history of racism, genocide, and general inhumanity directed toward Native Americans. That didn’t change in 1915. The Cleveland franchise simply chose to use the name “Indians” because they felt Indians, like Bears or Tigers or Wolves, invoked a sense of fear.
Shocker: Sports teams often choose mascots that evoke a sense of fear. It fits with the narrative of the “savage Indian” who attacks to civilized man. That’s what their logo showed, a stereotype of a group of people meant to scare. It’s not respectful. It never was. It isn’t now.
Again, because this question has been ignored on many occasions, I ask it once more: Do the opinions of the Native Americans who protest every year not matter? Are they incapable of determine for themselves what they consider racist?
Do you really need more context to know the name Indians had ill intent than Chief Wahoo, which was a racist depiction formulated by the same people who chose the name Indians in the first place? Is that context important or nah?
You keep suggesting that the naming a mascot in and of itself is evidence of respect and somehow the only evidence that’s needed. In that same vein, I suppose, no mascot could ever be racist. Even Chief Wahoo would somehow be considered respectful when it’s a cartoon character depiction of the 1915 opinion of Native Americans.
As far as being “ill informed,” I’ve provided receipts. Context. Your argument seemed to be limited to, I think: Mascots always good. Ok then. Well done.
That’s my manager.
Again, I’d ask anyone to read the article that was well-researched above by another Indians fan. Native Americans were not revered back then as humans worthy of respect. They were viewed as inhuman. Fierce, yes. But less than human. Much like black Americans were viewed back then and treated back then as less than human. I’m not sure why this is a difficult concept to understand. Racist America in 1915 wasn’t honoring Native American people.
And while we white Americans can debate whether it is racist in 2020, there are actual Native Americans who protest the name every year because they strongly feel that it is racist. I ask this question again because it’s never been answered on this thread: Does their opinion not matter? Robert Roche protests every year. Does his opinion not matter?
If it started racist and was supported by a racist caricature, then it’s racist, regardless of how one tries to dress it up now.
Beyond the Redskins, which is clearly racist on its surface, I can’t say I have given a whole lot of thought to the other names you referenced. I have given a lot of thought to the Indians because I’ve been a fan for decades. And like a lot of people on this thread, I was adamantly opposed to changing the name for years because I had grown very attached to the name. But when you look back on the history of the name, it just shouldn’t be allowed to stand anymore. And it’s not that important that it stand anymore. Baseball in Cleveland, on a professional level, can live on with another mascot. And 25 years from now, when we don’t have to debate the name, we will all be better off for having done it now.
The genocide of Native Americans in this country and in Ohio, specifically, is something that cannot be ignored in this debate. It happened. And I have serious doubts that, 100 years ago, there was any serious concern within society for what happened to those people.
But beyond that, how can you explain the caricature of Chief Wahoo and its predecessors as respectful and honoring Native American culture? Read the article I linked above. It explains the myth around the name and its origin. The team was never named “Indians” to honor Native Americans. It was named at time when those names were “in” and people would tell Native American jokes when discussing these names.
1915 wasn’t exactly a time of racial awakening in the United States. It was a very very racist time. And there is no reason to think the name “Indians” is somehow reflective of some progressive push in the world of sport to incorporate and show respect for Native American culture.
To the reader, the downvotes themselves seem to discredit the post without engaging in its content. I have been guilty, from time to time, of hurling generalized insults. I probably do deserve downvotes for that, not for stating an opinion. And when I do hurl insults, I have only done so after reading a thread of insults throw generally in the direction of someone with my point of view. You can see it throughout threads like these. “Cancel culture” or “everyone is offended nowadays.” I’ve tried, sometimes recklessly, to balance that out so this does not become an echo chamber stifling critical thinking.
Look, if you think Indians isn’t racist, make that argument. If you think it is racist, but the team shouldn’t change it anyway, make that argument. But there’s a discussion to be had and it seems that discussion is hard to have without it deteriorating into insults.
Context is important here. Is the term “Indians” in and of itself racist? I suppose you could make the argument either way.
Were Chief Wahoo and its predecessor caricatures racist depictions of Native Americans? Yes.
Did we commit genocide of Native Americans in the Ohio territory? Yes. Disgustingly, yes.
That context is important when interpreting “Indians” as a mascot. For the place, the time, and the depiction. No, the team was not named after Louis Sockelexis. This has been refuted: https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/18/the-cleveland-indians-louis-sockalexis-and-the-name/.
One frustration I have with these threads on hot button issues is that we are still using up voting in downvoting. I understand I am in the minority position on us. It does become a big echo chamber when you can be downloaded into your comment not even being visible just because you stated in opinion that a majority of lurkers don’t agree with.
This website has done a relatively good job keeping the politics down during a time when we don’t have sports and almost everything seems to be related to politics anymore. But these threads are inevitable today and the voting system doesn’t really play well in these threads if we are going to have real discussion.
What are you even talking about? I used “they” in response to one post to refute the comment to which I was responding.
There are Native Americans who protest the name every year up in Cleveland. I go up for Opening Day almost every year. “They” (those Native Americans protesting) do not, in fact, like the name. Their dedication to changing it is well known. For the original poster to suggest that somehow Native Americans support this name is incorrect. That was my point.
Do those voices not matter in this debate? Is it only the fragility of fans who are uncomfortable confronting our history with Native Americans, specifically in Ohio?
And at least I brought receipts for my position. The comment I was responding to... brought none.
They really do self own more than any other program.
There are currently no federally recognized Native American tribes in Ohio. There are two non-recognized tribes but they’re in Dayton and Cambridge, respectively. Of course, there used to be several tribes throughout Ohio but they were mostly displaced to the West in the mid-to-late 1700s.
This is probably the biggest reason why “Indians” is so much different than names like “Irish” or “Yankees,” especially in Ohio. I know the history is uncomfortable to confront but there were horrendous atrocities committed upon Native people in the Ohio territory. It’s wrong to pretend that we should feel justified in “honoring” them this way, in this land.
The Indians name is racist and should have been gone years ago. Let’s move on from it and celebrate the game of baseball. It’s just a name.
Yeah, they really love the name
My language wasn’t inflammatory. I said “snowflakes”. Certainly not close to the “social justice pussies” comment above that’s been sitting there a while.
Keep downvoting me racists. You can’t handle a racist mascot of a team you don’t even cheer for “maybe” changing names. It’s pathetic.
The mods here apparently enjoy the racism. Comments like “social justice pussies” get to stay but anything calling that stuff out gets deleted. This website is turning into the OZone and that’s why I stopped going to the OZone. There are enough right-wing circle jerks on sports fan websites. Thought this one was different.
I have not the faintest idea why I had a post deleted but I’m guessing it because 11W mods only support one point of view on this debate and that’s apparently that racist mascots are cool.