Man I've noticed this and I never thought it was a tell but now that u mention it....damn. I was worried about him getting a false start by leaning forward but this is way worse
I've been noticing this since week 1. It's very noticeable and you better believe LBs can see that and run down hill
Yep, I've been pointing out the lean-forward on runs for over a month.. surely our coaches see this, right?
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
You would think so and there would be signs of improvement to mask that.
To be on the safe side, I think someone should email urban just in case
or text him.
Nothing cleanses the soul like a no call pass interference.
Better email him as Pantoni might erase it!
Just put a sign in his yard.
So now that we have your attention. I'm talking you coaching staff. For the Michigan game only. Tell Dwayne to lean forward and then pass. Conversely, lean back, and now run. Do that for the first half only. Then switch it for the second half. Problem solved. Win secured. Screw Michigan football.
Or have him lean to the side and let all hell break loose with confusion.
Or he could lean back and do the rockaway, lean back.
Ohio, the greatest state in the Union!
“I said my Buckeyes don’t dance they just pull up their pants and do the rockaway...”
SCPO, USN (ret)
One thing a lot of lines do, that they didn’t use to do—-they don’t go down into a three point stance, they only do the ‘squat’ part of it. When you see this, it is 100% of the time, a pass play. I don’t know when teams started this, but it is astronomically DUMB.
30 years ago when I went to grad school in Louisville I went to a few games and thought it weird that the tackles weren't getting into a three point stance on passing downs. Howard Schnellenberger was the coach at the time so I figured he knew what was going on.
Satisfied is not a word I associate with football.
I've noticed this, along with the RBs...honestly been waiting for them to be flagged for it.
You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton
I've noticed this, along with the RBs
Glad someone already posted this. I too, have noticed it - probably more with the RBs than even Haskins.
Make preparations in advance. You never have trouble if you are prepared for it.
It is a borderline false start penalty.
Nevertheless, it seems like there is a significant timing issue between the ball being snapped, to Haskins receiving the snap, and the RB starting to run and receive the ball.
This is basic football that shouldn't be an issue in the 11th game of the season.....
...and the tight ends.
Perhaps Haskins needs to take a page out of the Cardale Jones playbook and utilize the rocker step. Cardale could absolutely eviscerate defenses over the top whenever he utilized that move (which wasn't enough IMO). Haskins has a similar skill-set to Cardale so why not?
I think I did see Haskins do a rocker step on a play or two against MSU.
I season my simple food with hunger
Haskins absolutely uses the rocker step.
It's possible. Bill Belichick said in his documentary that as a young and up coming coach he would look for these same type of tendencies, example a certain prolific Wide Receiver would always rub his hands together before the snap (prepping for the ball) Belichick of course caught onto to that and shut it down fast.
Fortune favors the bold.
Insert [oh good, now the other teams and coaches know how to beat us .. why are you sabotaging our program?] comment here.
It'd be hilarious if Haskins started giving the opposite "tell" during the TTUN game just to screw with them.
Kudos to the coaching staff for picking this up in their self-scouting during the bye week.
I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.
I Believe In Ohio State.
Jordan does the same thing
Watch almost every snap from Jordan is late. The offensive line is already moving prior to the ball getting to Haskins. On the play where Pridge. is supposed to pull to pick up their DE the ball comes back late and the DE beats him to the backfield. I have noticed that almost 75% of the time we snap the ball we technically could be called for "False start" because of this. M Jordan is a fantastic Guard but not so much a center!
You never get a second chance to make the first impression
I agreed. Idk why they don't just play Brady Taylor at center and move Jordan back to LG. Urban historically has 100% stuck to consistency with his linemen though regardless of how poorly they've played (hence why zero personnel changes were made after the infamous 8-sack Va Tech game in 2014 and why Isaiah Prince is a 3-year starter at RT). Jordan definitely doesn't have the natural ability to play center that Billy Price and Pat Elflein before him had. Brady Taylor is a natural at the position so I can't see the snaps being a constant issue for him like they have been with Jordan.
Possible reason: Brady Taylor has been injured (had surgery) and may not be back in playing shape yet.
Trust me! I'm an Engineer.
He also might just be bad. For three years in a row we decided that teaching a guard to play center would be a better option. That can't just be a total coincidence.
To be fair, I question the intelligence of having your RG roll out to try and block the opposing team’s best speed rusher in space...
It's a false key.. usually coincides with a play action fake.. makes LBs crash down or freeze to open up midlevel/midfield routes
Another comment relating to my post above, with this new meerkat offense teams play (get set/get ‘un-set’, look to the sidelines)—-I call bullshit. Once you are set, it should absolutely be called a false start if you come out of your stance. It is bullshit. When did this shit start. Once you’re set, you should be SET until the ball is snapped. The Rill Dill
Note to self: stay the eff off of Rill Dill's lawn.
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
Truth! Joel Klatt was pointing that out as well during the game. Timing was off with the snaps
I’m a mini van driver in a mega fun world
Good stuff... I don't think it's as obvious at the way Werner telegraphs EVERYTHING he is doing with his feet/head but there's definitely something to the way Haskins reacts pre-snap as pointed out in your clips.
I think you pair that with them trying to sell RPO and NO ONE in the stadium thinks there's any option makes it easy to have really good educated guesses based on what you think is coming... It's why it was easy when Tate was in there. Defensive ends were like "crap, this dude might tuck and run"....
His tell is because he's NEVER running the ball ( although at some point he's going to tuck and roll around the end with no one within 10 feet of him.. they've been saving it).... in an ideal world there's no tell because he's not sure what he is going to do until after the snap.. just another reminder this is a kid who hasn't even played a full season and the bulk of the stuff he has played as been a clean pocket with guys running wide open).. he's still got a LOT to learn...
The running game out of RPO hasn't been great but I wouldn't call it not an option, the defense still needs to respect Dobbins/Weber. I'd say the struggles there are more of an issue of the line having a hard time not knowing if they need to pass block vs run block.
Sorry, I meant red zone... no on on the planet think's Haskins is running the ball so when his first step is forward it's a straight tell he's handing it off...
I know that it has frequently seemed like our opponents knew the snap count this season. We're tipping it off some way or the other.
That was REALLY obvious early against MSU. The defensive ends were already out of their stance and over the line and our tackles had not even moved yet.. Most likely Haskins using the same rhythm or Jordan has an obvious tell... or some combination of the two..
To be fair, most QB’s have tells. It is exacerbated with Ohio State QB’s because they have to take a couple steps forward on those zone reads. That’s why I like the pistol formation a lot better. I wish they would use more pistol play fake rollouts like they did against Oregon State and work up different plays from those sets.
This is definitely where I parked my car.
We are not running many zone reads. Only one of those running plays above is a zone read.
Been saying this all year.
I do think this is why some more "pistol" looks should be incorporated (both running and throwing) as they were against Nebraska. Makes a huge difference in not giving a "tell" both in run/pass or the direction the formation is headed.
“I have yet to be in a game where luck was involved. Well-prepared players make plays. I have yet to be in a game where the most prepared team didn't win.” - Urban Meyer
I don't understand why he does this. Watching the game this weekend and seeing him dive forward before handing that ball off was maddening. The RBs have no room at that point to cut or make a read.
Prince does the same thing. If it's a pass he some how doesn't get called for a false start and he leaps back 3 yards. If it's a run he just stands there.
Good summary, Matt.
Kbonay has been mentioning this in game threads for probably the past 4-5 weeks. It is something that'll be difficult to fix. As Saluki2007 identifies, above, Prince's tell (and somehow not getting false started every play) is also a bit surprising.
I hate the offseason.
He even asked 'Ol Bill.
Do you feel Haskins tips off runs? He seems to lean forward on snap of running plays.
— Bonay (@kbonay) November 12, 2018
Probably leaning because he knows Jordan’s snaps are way too slow and hang in the air.
I am not sure I see a ton of it with Haskins. I would be more worried about the offensive line doing something.
Well, here’s something to work on.
Quick, someone "@" the coaching staff
This shouldn't be italicized.
Priority #1: Beat Michigan
Of course--I just never thought it should matter.
New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.
Good stuff Remy.
If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff
In the 3rd GIF Haskins threw the ball way too early, plus the receiver should have slanted toward the goal line which was wide open. Plus they're reading Haskins on a hand off, very easy to spot.
I guess it's always easier to spot it after it happens!
Could be but IMO it is more that the defense knows that Haskins is not going to run the ball 99% of the time so why waste a player keying on anything Haskins does.
I fully expected him to pull it during the Michigan State game. There were LOTS of yards to be had by him.
Even if this is the case, can a defender who is worried about their run fits or assignments going to be able to notice this in the nanosecond that it takes place and actually make anything out of it?
Are the runs being stuffed not because of a tell, but because no one respects him to run in the first place?
I want a fall Saturday in Ohio Stadium..
He's run the ball this season?
I think he has a tell in the passing game also. When he sees the defensive end flying around Prince, his eyes get huge and he cannot see the receivers running downfield .
Make sure the coaching staff gets this info before the next practice..
They would probably appreciate it.
Unrelated but during the Tressel era, someone inside the WHAC was posting pieces of the playbook on scout.com forums, and while I and other OSU fans appreciated the insight, I was nervous the opponent would appreciate it more; so I emailed a few coaches on the staff. Darrell Hazel actually responded and thanked me for the heads up.
Thank you Urban Meyer and Gene Smith
This is a great observation. I wouldn't be surprised if the coaches haven't caught onto this tell, yet I wouldn't be surprised if they are already aware. Maybe Haskins is aware of it, but with so many things a QB has to worry about, he has a hard time shaking the bad habit.
That said, it's possible that even elite coaches are not aware, or have not placed emphasis on the issue. If that is the case, I'm hopeful that someone at 11w or someone close will ask the question or point it out in Meyer's next presser.
Maybe he isn't doing it in practice and it only comes out under game pressure? Pressure brings out bad habits.
I've noticed the lean forward when handing off before and always thought it looked kinda awkward. Didn't dig any deeper to notice a "lean back" for passes though. Certainly didn't think of it as being a "tell". Good insight! There could be something to this..
*Sipping the Buckeye Kool-Aid since 1995
Give him a fedora and let him lean....
Enjoying daily the 62-39 ttun beatdown.
Damn good stuff, Matt.
Nice work Remy. I hadn't noticed this before.
Thought this article was gonna be hog wash but upon further review that call has been overturned. Nice catch hope it's corrected asap.
22 Saturdays till kickoff
Got 13 days to get that crap fixed
Stay golden, Ponyboy.
“Lean back...and throw the rock away”.
The only "tell" he should have is telling his lineman to learn how to block better.
Msu knew pre-snap if we were running or passing. One of our lineman most likely gives it away. They were bailing before snap on almost every pass play and shooting thru gaps on run blitzes untouched on most run plays. Its a miracle we won by 20. Reminded me a ton of the '15 game in the shoe. Maybe they know our play calls? Maybe Jordan is giving it away with his off hand?
THE actual "tell" is WAY WAY more obvious than your supposition. THE "tell" is.....the opponents are 99% certain that Haskins will never run the ball except on a desperation scramble.. He will either throw a pass or hand the ball to a running back. ALSO, rarely is there a fake hand off to a running back if a pass play is call. Giving Haskins more time to go through his progression and making it easier for the running back to pass protect. Another "tell". The O-linemen's stance is slightly different during pre-snap if a pass play is called vs a run play being called.
Let me preface this by saying.. a long time O-lineman and O-line coach.
I know no one cares about watching a U of M game, but if you can stomach it you will see what a good running team's O-line does. On every play except for an obvious pass play the U of M O-linemen have small spacing between each other decreasing the possibility of a D-lineman shooting a gap. All of the O-linemen are in a low three point stance, making it easier to get lower than the D-linemen. The primary goal for success of O-line vs D-line.
Compare that to a pass first offensive O-line(Ohio State), They are prepared to pass block. They're not in a low 3-point stance, instead they're in a 2-point squat with their hands held up in front of the chest in preparation to hold off a pass rush. OR a 3-point stance with their weight more back on their heals instead off low with weight forward on their hands .Making it much more difficult to run block. An O-lineman can't drastically change his stance based on a pass or run being called.
I call BS. This could never happen, because I know for a fact Haskins has his own super special super awesome qb coach that has transformed him into the next Tom Brady in waiting.
That is interesting, the only ones that would be able to see that are second and third level guys. Most third level guys don't have eyes on QB though. The only thing I could think of for years is I don't know why on PAP Play Action Passes we have QB set the protection. Usually protection calls are easy tells. I understand in empty, but I don't see him ID'ing runs or making run calls. If you watch Brady he does and so did Manning, it is a safety net for the center making original call since QB in the gun sees more than the center bending down.
I'm sure it has been stated in other threads, but the mere fact that our offensive line looked like they knew what they were doing with Martell behind them as opposed to not looking like they know what they are doing with Haskins behind them is all we need to know. The line has been polished to run the UFM offense, not some discombobulated love-child version between Day and Wilson that we see every week, strictly because Haskins is exactly like Jones, and the offense doesn't fit them. Of course the line is going to give away the play, and that's because they truly don't know how to set up for just pass, or just run, without giving it away.
I've noticed that lean from Haskins as well. No doubt it's a run. Every. Damn. Time. It's like they need to get Haskins to watch some tape of Troy Smith doing the lean and hop back....that worked, what Haskins is doing does not work.
Having Haskins as the QB presents a very uncomfortable scenario for UFM in 2018, and likely for 2019. Martell getting on the field on Saturday shows that UFM has recognized that his offense under Haskins just doesn't work well in the Red Zone, very similar to how Cardale struggled in 2015. Reason being, the threat of the QB run is non-existent. Couple that with the line giving away the plays, and Haskins nearly false-starting on every run play, handing the ball off 14" away from the butt of the center, and topped off with the fact that I've never seen slower snaps in my lifetime.....and we find ourselves as predictable, and very, very beatable when facing an opponent with an offensive pulse.
D'Antonio didn't have the horses on offense to beat us. scUm most definitely does, and they have a defense that'll give them plenty of possessions with extended drives. This stuff needs to be fixed, and fixed quick.
Just came here to say...this “tell” is gone based what I saw in the Maryland game. Either someone on the team or he himself read this, or it was brought up. Small improvement I guess...