Skull Session: Alex Hornibrook Grades Higher Than Dwayne Haskins, Slobs Among the Nation's Best and People Are Doubting Chris Holtmann Again

Comments Show All Comments

RunEddieRun1983's picture

If your team already has a loss and you have a tenth of the stats, you’re not greater than. Haskins for president!

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

HS
IGotAWoody's picture

Dinging a QB for the average length of his throws without giving credit for ball placement seems very shortsighted for a site the quality of PFF. That really surprises me considering how indepth they usually are with player analysis.

And Kevin hit the nail on the head - if your grading scale spits out Hornibrook at the top and well ahead of Haskins, you should go back and look at how you're generating those numbers. TDs matter and Haskins has more than three times as many. Wins matter. DH has more yards and a much better completion percentage.

Hornibrook - 73 of 114 (64%), 963 yds, 7 TDs, 2 INTs, RAW QBR - 64.7

Haskins - 142 of 198 (71.7%), 1919 yds, 25 TDs, 4 INTs, RAW QBR - 83.7

C'mon, Man! There's a reason that Haskins is a top contender for the Heisman, and Hornibrook is... well... not.

“The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it.” – Theodore Roosevelt

HS
TigerSweat's picture

Spot on.

I like to think of it as if I were building roster and it came time to choose the B1G QB to build my offense around. Do I go with hornibrook or Haskins? That's a no brainer

Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0

HS
Nashville's picture

It’s stupid. Should Haskins have waited for a couple seconds to hit Campbell on that wheel route Saturday ?  I guess throwing it twenty yards further downfield would have been better from PFF’s perspective. 

He's throwing the ball accurately and on time and taking advantage of what our playcallers and receivers are doing to get open on high percentage throws that can still go for big gains. Is he a product of the system ? Sure, but it’s his incredible talents that allows it to work. 

"You can never pay back, but you can always pay forward."

HS
CptBuckeye24's picture

I think they do take into account ball placement and looking at the quality of throw that was made. They cite Hornibrook as having: "54.6% of his passes are targeted past the line to gain, the second-highest figure in the Big Ten and only 35.3% of his passing yards have come after the catch, which is the second-lowest percentage." Conversely, only 38.4% of Haskins passes are targeted past the line to gain. In theory, Hornibrook's throws are more difficult to complete when they thrown farther up field and takes more effort on the QB to throw than to throw a shorter pass closer to the line of scrimmage. They are saying Hornibrook has had to more with throwing the ball than Haskins. I think you can point to the final Penn State drive as a decent example. That drive was way more about the receivers running up field and their collective blocking than it was about Haskins making throws. 

But their argument surrounding Haskins is that "54.8% of his passing yards have come after the catch this season." Their system gives more credit to the receivers for making the plays. Case and point would be Parris Campbell's TD against Indiana. To them, Haskins threw a short pass where the receiver did the rest. It was a 71 yard TD but Haskins threw it about 5 yards up the field while Campbell carried the remaining 66 or so yards. If Campbell caught that ball 20 yards further up field, Haskins is going to get a better grade. 

PFF would point out that OSU has better receivers than Wisky. I think it is fair to point out that if is not Campbell catching that 71 yard pass against Indiana, 90% of college receivers would not have made that a TD. How many have Campbell's speed to just outrun everyone and get that wide open? So Haskins gets credit for 71 yards and a TD, Campbell made that play happen. I think it is a relative measure and I don't really disagree with their logic. I look at this in terms of a basketball play. There are a lot of ways to score 40 points in a game. 40 points is 40 points. You can score them through layups, dunks and easy looks at the basket, or you can make 9 three point shots, make 5 free throws and 4 layups to get 40 points. You get more credit as a shooter when you have game like the latter but doesn't necessarily make you a better player.

HS
IGotAWoody's picture

I think the things you point out are valid and make sense. Those differences would tip the scales when comparing 2 QBs with similar numbers. The problem is that Dwayne's numbers are vastly superior, across the board.

Again, over 3X as many TDs, twice as much yardage, much better completion % and 20 pts better in raw QBR.

“The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it.” – Theodore Roosevelt

HS
CptBuckeye24's picture

I'm with you and I was a bit surprised. I wish they would further substantiate their reasoning about Hornibrook. It is a bit short in comparison to Haskins' analysis.

HS
Urbane Meijer's picture

I'd love for someone (with way more time than me) to remove the throws with the top YAC from Haskin's stats and then compare.

HS
RunEddieRun1983's picture

You're spot on with this. It's a farce to think that anyone in the country is out performing Haskins right now. I know Tua is the golden child right now, but even his numbers pail in comparison somewhat to Haskins, and he hasn't played half the competition Haskins has.

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

HS
I_Run_The_Dave's picture

A screen pass to the sideline travels further in the air (20 or so yards in flight) than a 5 yard crossing route (10-15 yards in flight).  Which is harder to throw?  That depends on the defense, which their analysis ignores.  You are likely to throw short passes/screens when the box is stacked and/or you are being blitzed.  And those throws, despite being behind the line, are incredibly difficult to hit with the timing and placement necessary to break it for a "successful" gain (using the success rate formula of 40% of yards needed on 1st, 60% on second, and 100% on third down).  But because this is what defenses are forcing us to do, and DH is incredibly good at it, it somehow lowers his rating?  

Another factor is the running game.  That's what defenses key on against Wisconsin.  Our running game is non-existent.  And yet DH has the numbers he has.  PFF needs to step up their game.

Your signature will be publicly displayed at the end of your comments.

HS
JSH0717's picture

Literally thought the same thing, I tweet back at them all the time where to apply because something is messed up.  Ball placement IS something that is graded in a real football environment.  YAC happens for two reasons and one of them is ball placement from the QB.  To knock Haskins because he makes accurate throws is dumb. 

GO BUCKS!

HS
fear_the_nut70's picture

Except that teams win games not quarterbacks.  Haskins is vastly superior to Hornibrook, anyone who has watched a lot of CFB can easily see this, as suggested above.  But I knew any criticism would ruffle the feathers of Haskins Truthers.  The criticism of him listed above is also fair.

You are entitled to you own opinion, not your own facts.

HS
OSU_ALUM_05's picture

blogging from a half-finished attic bedroom in the campus area

I lived in a family member's half finished basement for 4 years while I commuted to Ohio State.  All that room and board $$$ I didn't have to borrow looks pretty good right now.  

HS
Jumar's picture

It was pretty smart of you to save money like that.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
IGotAWoody's picture

Jumar!!!! I haven't seen you on here in a long time! Glad to see you're still haunting these boards.

“The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it.” – Theodore Roosevelt

HS
Jumar's picture

Work and soccer have kept me busy. I check in when possible.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
LCT's picture

This Metrics-Numbers-Percentages nerd business is out of control.

Lifetime vs. UM: L 8-1, C 7-0, T 4-0

HS
osu78's picture

Loathes

Counting

Things

Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.

HS
Buctor's picture

I've posted this before!!!

Numbers lie?

Beat everyone, in every sport, all the time!!!

HS
Dillon G's picture

Haskins doesn't really throw down field very often, his receivers are the ones responsible for the majority of his passing yards and touchdowns – especially in the biggest game of his career – and pressure bothers him more than a typical quarterback.

You have to hit the open receiver, and do it in stride. Hornibrook isn't that QB. And let me know when he starts dropping dimes 40 yards downfield, across the field, right in the bread basket.

#walkaway

HS
iowabuckeyes's picture

I respect PFF but they seemed to devote an awful lot of time and space justifying all the reasons why Haskins isn’t the B1G’s best quarterback, as if having good receivers who can turn short passes into long gains and an offensive line that gives him time to find the open man are advantages he should apologize for because the way PFF apparently sees it, they’re holding him back. McSorley completed half of his passes against Ohio State yet he is rated better? What’s the old saying? You take what the defense gives you? Haskins has done that quite well, better than McSorley or Hornibrook, as 6-0 will attest.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

HS
SoulPatrol32's picture

Weenie Arm >>>>>>>>>>> Noodle Arm

Just posting and hoping my comment isn’t deleted. 

HS
chris's picture

Even still, when I read "there's not a coach in the world who would start Hornibrook over Haskins" my first thought was... Urban might, if Hornibrook has "great leadership"

HS
Dstacify's picture

Hornibrook isn't even on JT's level as a QB tbh. Let's not start pretending that they're one and the same. The closest QB we have to a Hornibrook-type on our roster currently is probably Chugunov tbh. Hornibrook is an over-hyped game-manager (like all Wisky QBs not named Russell Wilson from the last 20 years) who has a terrific supporting cast around him (including perhaps one of the best offensive lines in the country). That's the only reason he's been able to produce at all. PFF's computation system is way off here.

11 Strong.

HS
chris's picture

But, despite all that, if he has both seniority and great leadership...

I take your points and I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here.

HS
CowCat's picture

Note to PFF: There is something called scheme.

Dwayne Haskins cannot control what is called from the sidelines, and our offense is based on getting the ball to playmakers in space.

OSU has been running a lot of short and intermediate route concepts, which makes sense with Haskins' quick release. He can heave the ball 60 yards on a rope, but doing so often would really pressure the offensive line. The offensive line is performing well precisely because they don't have to pass block for a long time. The receivers are performing well because they have a quarterback who hits them accurately in stride.

PFF has it backwards.

"We get paid to score touchdowns, not kick field goals"
-- Urban Meyer

HS
CincyOSU's picture

Dwayne Haskins cannot control what is called from the sidelines, and our offense is based on getting the ball to playmakers in space.

It's funny, last year we criticized Barrett for this, now, it's not the QB's fault. It's funny how things change when it's "your guy".

And for the record, I LOVE Barrett, but will readily admit that Haskins is a better QB....I just find it humorous one year a particular stats is used to prove how bad a QB is, and the next year, that stat is used in a different QB's favor.

HS
Dillon G's picture

I didn't criticize him for that. Most didn't. 

#walkaway

HS
CincyOSU's picture

Yes, most did. Maybe you didn’t but most did. How many times did a “JT guy” point out his great stats, and some “anti JT guy” pointed out how flawed those stats were because the WRs did all the work. Now, this year, it’s part of the offense and isn’t a flawed stat at all. 

HS
BucksLover0214's picture

The difference between Haskins and JT is that Haskins can actually throw downfield, and WHEN he does it's accurate and easy for the receivers to catch.  He actually can throw a receiver open.  I never saw that from JT.  I think his completion percentage when throwing 20 yards downfield was less than 20%.  Had Haskins played in the 2nd half of our early games his stats would be even better than they already are.

They hate us cuz they aint us!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

HS
Dillon G's picture

Did you mean Hornibrook? That is what the article narrative is about,. 21 seconds in, watch the pass. Hornibrook cannot make this throw.

#walkaway

HS
CowCat's picture

My original point had nothing to do with JT Barrett. I'll always appreciate what he achieved.

It's just that any quarterback has to do what the called play asks for. Our offense is not similar to most NFL offenses. We're trying to create mismatches and get the ball out quickly. The deep ball is basically a "Surprise! You weren't ready for that".

"We get paid to score touchdowns, not kick field goals"
-- Urban Meyer

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Let's see all the PFF insight go to work Saturday night in M...igan Stadium, then let's talk Alex Hornibrook.

HS
Earle's picture

I'd very much like to see Alex justify his lofty rating on Saturday.

In other news, Shea Patterson's rating is virtually identical to Haskins'.

(thinking face emoji)

HS
Hovenaut's picture

I'm no wizard, but that math ain't adding up.

HS
85ThruTheHeart's picture

Unfortunately, the metrics probably will look justified against our defense. For the first 3 quarters at least.

"He has that look in his eye when it's time to start feeding the beast" UFM on EZE

HS
3ydncloudofdust's picture

Now I’m wondering if we threw the ball downfield more so in the first few games vs the last few games, or should I say how much more? Maybe that has something to do with the run game [lately]?

Still a conspiracy?

"You have to play with emotion, you can't let emotion play with you." - Ryan Day

HS
BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

There’s a story in the WR stats I believe.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Meyer’s coveted H position (primarily Campbell and Hill) have more receptions than all of the other 4 WRs combined.  Think Campbell/Hill have close to 60 catches.  The H gets fed in Meyer’s Offense.

There was a game where Haskins was like 19 of 22 and FOURTEEN of those completions were to the H.  

Campbell alone has had 24 receptions in just the last 3 games since Meyer’s return.  Don’t think that’s coincidence.

HS
Ohio Guy in Jersey's picture

You’re right. It’s not a coincidence because it works. More completions, more yards, more TDs, more wins. I’ll take it.

HS
DdougOSU's picture

Exactly! its almost like people would prefer us to throw it downfield 30+ yards every other play but hell i dont care if we throw backwards passes as long as it nets positive big plays.

humpty hump

HS
Geraffi's picture

Definitely dusty in here. What an inspiration! Congrats Justin. 

HS
iowabuckeyes's picture

Indeed. He’s an inspiration. Congratulations and keep on truckin’, Justin!

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

HS
SoulPatrol32's picture

Amazing story right there. 

Just posting and hoping my comment isn’t deleted. 

HS
MN Buckeye's picture

Chris Holtmann is underestimated yet again. 

HS
TMac's picture

And I wouldn't want it any other way, yet. 

#ItsGreatToBeABUCKEYE

HS
PhillyNut's picture

Thanks, Kevin, for sharing Justin's big moment with us. These are the things we need to remind us of the good that is done every day by so many.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
iowabuckeyes's picture

And the courage and resilience.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

HS
WorthyBuck's picture

The coaches are failing to take advantage of Dwayne’s passing ability.  As shown, for some reason, we do not pass the ball down the field.  We throw mostly short, horizontal routes and rely on our WRs to make plays.  This works against most of our opponents who are simply outmatched.  But it will not work as well against better teams and it does not stretch the field as much as we should be with Dwayne’s are, which would lead to more big plays and , more importantly, would open up the running gMe even more.  This offense would sputter against an elite defense, because we they really don’t have to worry about being beaten over the topper over the middle and down the field.  We are failing to fully utilize Dwayne’s arm, which will hold us back against better teams.  We also cannot run the ball. 

We are second to last in the big 10 in average depth of throw.  Second to last.  With the QB with by far the best arm, and the best group of WRs.  

HS
BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

Sputter as in Clemson 31 - OSU 0 in the 2016 Fiesta Bowl.

HS
WorthyBuck's picture

Yes.  Michgan will be a struggle offensively.  And if we make the playoff our offense will have trouble against those top teams.  We need to be more aggressive in attacking down the field.  We are leaving maybe our greatest weapon in the holster.  

HS
TigerSweat's picture

I agree. Feels like the coaching staff should start working more deep shots into the game plan.

Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0

HS
Ohio Guy in Jersey's picture

They’re failing to take advantage of Dwayne Haskins’ passing ability? I feel like I’m in the upside down from Stranger Things. 

The young man is on pace to obliterate every single season passing mark OSU has. The coaches are helping him succeed. They aren’t failing him in any way (so long as they give up the designed QB runs).

HS
BrutusB's picture

You can take advantage of a guy's arm strength even if you're not throwing it 40 yards down the field. Getting the ball from the QB to the WR in half the time because its coming out of a cannon still lets you beat the defender.

HS
TigerSweat's picture

I just can't shake the feeling that Urban, on some level, resents Haskins' throwing ability (especially on deep shots). That's probably not true at all though. I do sometimes wonder if, hypothetically, JT was still on roster if he would be the one starting. Lol

Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0

HS
BbBnD's picture

Of course JT would. People that think Haskins just learned how to throw and read a D over the summer are delusional. 

HS
PhillyNut's picture

I contend that with Haskins one of the things the stats do not do a good job of recognizing is his ability to get the ball to the boundaries on a rope that then gives his receivers time to take advantage of the delay of the defense getting over to make tackles. The heat map yesterday showed how many of his short passes are going 15 - 20 yards to the sidelines and how few are short over the middle. My guess is guys like Hornibrook and Mcsorley would have a bunch more over the middle because those offenses depend more on tight ends and slot receivers catching the ball in that open space of defenses (which would be really nice to see the Buckeyes take more advantage of but then you cannot take advantage of other receivers blocking).

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
BbBnD's picture

Agreed. How do they measure throwing distance? From LOS to catch or from QB to catch? If it’s the former, that’s not a particularly insightful metric to measure against. 

HS
Buckabroad's picture

Was never much of a math guy anyway. I'll take Haskins any day of the year.

"The minute we stop expecting greatness, we become Wisconsin."

HS
MichiBuck12's picture

I hope Hornibrook plays like the best QB in the B1G this week. I've always thought he was a bit underrated. He is perfect for the system they run at Wisconsin. If you stop their run game though, he's not going to go out and beat you by himself. Quite frankly, I don't care about PFF grades, or Heisman polls, or any of that stuff. Haskins is the guy I want leading my team right now. 

HS
BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

Amen to Haskins being the “guy in charge”, passing the rock!

HS
osu78's picture

While I agree with you on Haskins, the numbers indicate areas of strengths and weaknesses. As pointed out, Haskins js a lot less effective when pressured. Ohio State has a great OL but even so knowing pressure is the way to neutralize Haskins gives team a way to game plan; and when we face a really great D we will have problems. Know OSU seems to prefer short passes and rely on receivers to gain yards after a ctach means more focus on that and less on preventing long passes. 

So while numbers don't tell the whole story they  provide a lot of information.

Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.

HS
3ydncloudofdust's picture

Well that’s a disparaging equation - for the running game anyway. Does not do well under pressure + not very mobile + throwing high % of short passes.

Hey I love Dwayne. I just think we need a few more outs, utilize the sideline. With his arm strength, it’s a flick for him, where a lot of QBs struggle. Even at an intermediate depth, it’s going to open the run game up. 

"You have to play with emotion, you can't let emotion play with you." - Ryan Day

HS
TigerSweat's picture

I think his stats while being pressured are being skewed a good bit by the PSU game... The early drops seemed to shake him more than anything that night and the pressure just added to it. We'll see how he does going forward but I suspect that he'll be much better against pressure in the last half of the season.

Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0

HS
BbBnD's picture

3 of his 4 interceptions occurred when he was throwing while getting hit. I believe 2 last week and 1 against TCU. That probably contributes to the “poor under pressure” stats as well. 

HS
osu78's picture

Agreed. As the season progress we should see improvement as players get used to the game and the pressure. PSU, however, showed what a good defense could do to his game; it should be a matter of experience and getting into a rhythm with the receivers.

Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.

HS
c11058's picture

Best believe that TTUN has this info on their defensive bulletin board.  They are going to try to make Hornybrook the worst rated B1G QB this weekend while their golden boy from Ole Miss and Toledo shows as the top rated QB in the league. 

EFF Michigan, regardless!!

HS
ToTheHouse's picture

#3 Div 1.

#1 overall 3-0 6-0 B1G

#1 25 TD'S D. Haskins B1G

UFM 6-0. J. Hairball 0-3.

I'll take these (numbers) everyday that ends in "y" .

Anyone with me ?

Beat gophers !

Beat skunk weasels !

HS
WC Buckeye's picture

#highqualityproblems

Life is full of choices. Make good ones.

HS
SpiderBuckeyes's picture

People at Pro Football Focus probably forgot that Haskins has the toughest schedules. If so, they need to add that to their computer. 

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

Spielman's house: don't forget the annual $28,000 in property taxes. Yikes.

HS
iowabuckeyes's picture

$2.15 million! That’s $403,000 per exclamation point in that property description! It was like reading a Steve Canyon cartoon where every dialogue bubble ends in either a question mark or an exclamation point! Reading it left me breathless and thirsting for more! To be continued!

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

HS
sonofbuck's picture

Relocating to C'bus from SC. The property taxes here are Ridiculous! Over twice what they are in SC. And that's for a house that's 900 sq ft Smaller

UNDISPUTED!

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

I used to live in Upper Arlington as well and the public schools are outstanding.  So you are getting something for what you are paying.  But it's also one of the reasons we moved out a few years after our kids were out of the school system.  I know many people of my vintage who have done/are doing the same.

HS
buckeye_chick's picture

My family built the 6th house in Muirfield in 1976. My dad sold it when his monthly property tax bill became larger than his original mortgage payment was.

Just FYI, the price for the lot (on the course between the first hole and the second tee) was $20K, which was a lot of money in 1976. And they sold them out of a trailer parked across the street from the clubhouse. I still keep in touch with some of the other kids who moved in around that time; we used to all get together on Christmas Eve.

HS
aj99's picture

Ohio property taxes are terrible.  I moved to California a few years ago and my property taxes were less on a bigger more expensive house.

HS
WC Buckeye's picture

Buuuut.... CA has SO many other problems that dwarf the property tax issue. Mrs. WC and I will be pulling up stakes and heading back to the great state of Ohio as quickly as we possibly can. Tomorrow would be great if we could do it. We'll take the property tax hit over all the other nonsense here in SoCal in any day that ends in "y" (thanks, previous commenter - perfect punctuation to the point).

Life is full of choices. Make good ones.

HS
aj99's picture

Sorry.  I'm 8 hours away from Socal.  Can't blame you I guess.  I love it here. It would take a million dollar salary to get me to go back.

HS
WC Buckeye's picture

To each his/her own. It’s not the state, scenery, climate, or seismicity that I loathe - it is definitely the cost of living, the governance (or lack thereof), and the people (all of them, and it’s getting worse). Give me slow, simple, cheap, and familiar for the win, Alex.

Life is full of choices. Make good ones.

HS
TigerSweat's picture

I'm sorry but California is the last place in the country that I would want to move my family to. I guess if you were in the right areas of the state it would be good. Areas that definitely do not include cities like LA, SF, SD, etc....

Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0

HS
WC Buckeye's picture

Spot on. SD is actually a great city, if not very livable only because of the $$$, but for the same money you can't beat Santa Barbara. I don't give a flip, really, for the rest of the state outside Yosemite/Tahoe/Sequoia, but those are just cool places to visit. I've been here for almost 20 years now, and believe me, the novelty wore off a long time ago. The job opportunity in '99 was too good to pass up, but semi-retirement looms - in a paid-for house back home. 

Life is full of choices. Make good ones.

HS
bivium6's picture

Neat, indoor swimming pool.

"I believe that when we write things down, we begin the process of activating the fundamentals in our lives." - Jim Tressel

HS
blueblazer22's picture

I cannot believe that the FBI is doing something fishy. Oh wait, I forgot to use sarcasm font. Maybe these guys didn't find Civil War gold, but why should the Feds be so secretive if nothing was there?

Nobidy would take Hornibrook over Haskins. As for throwing downfield/not, with the playmakers Haskins has at his disposal he doesn't need to go deep often since he knows these guys can get it done with a short to medium ball. It would be nice to throw a bit deeper to open up the run game a bit, but when you get this kind of production out of Hill and Mack and...

"They say, "these geeks come a dime a dozen.  I'm lookin' for the guy who's supplyin' the dimes." -Classy Freddie Blassie

HS
iowabuckeyes's picture

Paul Chryst would...but then he has to.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

HS
dan_isaacs's picture

I wouldn't be so quick to believe a dude from Appalachia that spends his days wandering the woods with a metal detector looking for mythical gold.  So far, you have his accounting of events.  Reality is probably substantively different.  Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.

Dan Isaacs

HS
Canukbuck's picture

While I think that our Slobs are doing a very good job at creating a clean pocket and protecting Dwayne, I'm afraid that I don't see them, right now, as more than a B++ O-Line.  If I'm grading them, I take into consideration more than just the creation of a clean pocket.

I factor in the number of holding calls and ill-timed false start penalties.  I take a look at their ability to "own" the LOS on 4th down conversion attempts.  I also have a look at the overall YPC by our backs and see that it has dipped significantly since last season, which means that we're not owning the LOS as much as last year.  I'm also scratching my head when I read how much teams crowd the box to "force" OSU to beat them with the pass.  Since we have almost 30 passing TD's in 6 games, I'd have already guessed that we can beat teams, badly, with our passing game.  I understand why teams would try to stop our run game when JT was under center and force us to beat them with our passing game, but not this season.

Until we grade much better in our run game and the elimination of lazy penalties, this is a very good offensive line, but not YET, a great one. JMHO

HS
TMac's picture

Because targeting is already so uncontroversial, and well defined; 

#ItsGreatToBeABUCKEYE

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

For context, because it matters, the defensive player in question sat out the first half of that game because of a targeting penalty in the previous game.  Here's the hit for those who didn't see it.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
TMac's picture

While this is also a very bad, clearly targeting hit, the play in question was on a Washington State defender, #45, Logan Tago. 

#ItsGreatToBeABUCKEYE

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

So you're saying this crew blew a pair of targeting calls, where USC drilled the WSU QB in a close game at home.  Interesting.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
TMac's picture

Yeah, and on top of that Thamel is reporting a non-official, Pac-12 general counsel Woodie Dixon, overruled two sets of officials. Which is just mind boggling. 

"Dixon oversees football for the conference but is not a formally trained official. Dixon telephoned in his opinion that the play wasn’t targeting, sources said. According to the report, his opinion overruled both the trained officials in the stadium replay booth and in the league’s command center."

#ItsGreatToBeABUCKEYE

HS
cronimi's picture

As a lawyer myself, I'm heartened to see that the general counsel's determination was followed over the "opinions" of the officials. /s

HS
Run_Fido_Run's picture

This example vividly illustrates that interpretations of the targeting “rule” are completely arbitrary. Obviously, most penalty infractions in football are applied by subjective interpretation - e.g. holding - but the officiating crew doesn’t get the benefit of video review for all of the other penalties. When we can watch the replay in slow mo from three different angles and still not have the vaguest clue whether the on-field targeting call will be confirmed or reversed 80+% of the time, then it’s not a rule by definition (rules must be understandable or else they are something else). 

Oh, wait, I forgot . . . the targeting “rule” is predictable after all . . . Any time it involves an Ohio State player, it is always targeting. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Imagine if Porter Gustin played in Columbus (believe Ohio State had interest in recruiting him, iirc).

HS
iowabuckeyes's picture

Looks like I just found my next job: untrained replay official. I can do that.

It’s interesting that Porter Gustin and Logan Tago both wear 45. It kinda reminds me of two pitchers throwing retaliatory pitches that hit opposing batters.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

HS
BuckeyeJim's picture

I like a clean QB. Haskins finds a receiver quicker than Hornibrook.

Elon Musk: 'I Want to be Clear: I Do Not Respect the SEC'

HS
Canukbuck's picture

That was the big knock on JT - his inability to throw the ball quickly.  Haskins huge plus is his quick release and being fearless to put the ball into a small window.  JT tended to play it safely and as a result, sometimes took too much time to deliver the ball (he wanted a receiver to be wide open and make the safe throw). 

Haskins quick release takes a huge amount of pressure off of the Slobs, since they don't have someone sitting back there for 5 = 6 seconds trying to make the reads.  In most cases, it's the O-Line which makes our QB and RB's look good.  In this case, for the most part, it's our QB's quick release that makes our O-Line look good .....

HS
Dillon G's picture

And it's not about deep throws. The fact that Hornibrook can not simulate Dan Marino is secondary. 

#walkaway

HS
Bourbon Meyer's picture

Those numbers from PFF are absolute uncut Grade A 

BULLSHIT!!!

HS
kmp10's picture

 HORNIBROOK > HASKINS? I generally love Pro Football Focus. I love the work they do, I think their advanced stats are incredible...

Some people, especially of late, put FAR too much emphasis on stats, and PFF is one of them. I know that's their nerdy deal, but they take it too far at times, and this is one of those times. Haskins passes the human eye test better than any QB in the B1G, mostly because football on Sundays is primarily a passers game. Hornibrook is a solid player, while Haskins is a unique player. This is clear to anyone watching the games... but a computer can't differentiate. Here's the telling 'stat,' given the choice, how many coaches across America would choose Hornibrook over Haskins? That's right, maybe Paul Chryst, but after him it's a big zero. Dwayne Haskins has stuff to work on and weaknesses to be certain... but he's better than Hornibrook by a wide margin. 

Pro Football Focus has the Ohio State offensive line as the No. 6 line in the nation midway through the season.

I don't see it, at least not right now. They're seemingly soft run blockers relative to OSU o-lines of the past. Last I looked, after the IU game, Ohio State and ttun are virtually identical statistically in their rushing offenses. So far, they just don't look like they want to grind meat and maul people at the LOS, and that's at least half the measuring stick, imo. 

When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's 

HS
LCT's picture

If you put together an arbitrary formula that yields this kind of absurd result you should tweak the formula. Because it's arbitrary, it won't really matter that much and you won't be ridiculed for your goofy methods.

Lifetime vs. UM: L 8-1, C 7-0, T 4-0

HS
AZ Buckeye13's picture

"That's right, maybe Paul Chryst, but after him it's a big zero"

If it was an anonymous poll asking the QB question, even Chryst is taking Haskins over Hornibrook...

HS
BuckminsterFullback's picture

Ohio State QB Dwayne Haskins averages a depth of target of just 7.9 yards past the line of scrimmage, the second-lowest in the conference. This, of course, has led to the fact that 54.8% of his passing yards have come after the catch this season. 

Well, that's a fair assessment. For all of the hype about Haskins' arm strength, the Buckeyes' offense hasn't featured a ton of post routes and flag routes; they use a ton of mesh routes, and they tend to stretch the field horizontally as much as vertically.

However:

1. On the short crossing routes, Haskins puts the ball out in front of receivers, who can catch it in stride, which is crucial for gaining YAC.

2. Haskins' arm strength allows OSU to throw a lot more out routes; the ball may not be going a long way past the line of scrimmage, but it's still a long throw that must arrive on time.

3. At least one of OSU's leading receivers is not exactly known for his ability to haul in the deep ball.

Haskins hasn't thrown deep often, but that doesn't mean he's not capable of doing so. Perhaps we'll see OSU throw deep more often, as the season progresses. 

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

HS
keith7456's picture

Exactly my thought. Haskins puts the ball where it allows his receiver to get YAC. How many times do you see a QB throw a crossing route where the receiver has to turn around or reach back to catch which slows him down to be tackled. YAC can be attributed as much to a good throw as to a good run after catch in many cases.

HS
Zimmy07's picture

Sees emotional support squirrel enter plane.  Replays squirrel scenes from the Ice Age movies in my mind.

Ponders the moment when the flight attendants hand out peanuts to everyone on the plane.....

Pushes the call attendant button.

HS
Enzo's picture

Swap QBs and Wisconsin is undefeated and the Bucks have 2 losses. PFF has garbage metrics.

HS
UFest57's picture

Is that a portrait of Charles Manson above Spielman's fireplace? If so, that's um, odd.

HS
LCT's picture

Nice try, but everyone knows that's Jayson Werth.

Lifetime vs. UM: L 8-1, C 7-0, T 4-0

HS
Nutinpa's picture

I am not going to get bent out of shape over a numbers analysis, but part of Haskins' issues with poor "under pressure" performance is simply is lack of experience and poor evasiveness in the pocket.   When he learns how to take a few steps in the pocket to avoid pass rushers, he'll improve dramatically,  What scouts and others see, despite his amazing passing skills, is a kid who is a statue in the pocket and can't get out of the way of a rusher.  The blueprint is out there now to stop or control him.  The better teams will do it until he learns some pocket skills.  The poorer teams won't have the horses to contain him for more than a few series of downs.  

As for Spielman's home.....what was he doing....entertaining heads of state?  I've never seen such large dining areas.  Oh well. 

HS
aj99's picture

Yeah, and unfortunately one of the "better" teams we're going to see is MI.  If we're not improved as a team by the end of Nov, then we might look pretty silly at home.  Right now they're running the schemes to beat us.  Short range passes and lots of pressure on qb every down.

HS
Nutinpa's picture

Agree.  And it won't wait until MI.  Purdue and Michigan State may not have the Defensive talent that Michigan does, but I have seen both teams on good and bad days.  And both teams are well coached and will be prepared when we go to their stadiums.  If our D issues are not fixed and if our pass pro on blitzes is not fixed, both games could get ugly even though we have far more talent. 

HS
AZ Buckeye13's picture

"With the number one pick in the 2019 NFL draft, the New York Giants select Alex Hornibrook-University of Wisconsin...

Yeah, right... 

HS
bd2999's picture

I would concede that Haskins has many short passes that get taken to the house but he also throws a pretty deep ball that usually connects for TDs. I find it a bit odd that he is being punished a bit for the talent around him.

Typically, good QBs have good lines and talented WRs to go along with it. It becomes hard to figure out who is doing what and where. But that has always been an issue. The same things discussed for Haskins would apply to Tua, at least with the clean pocket thing. I imagine he throws the ball downfield more but I am sure he also has more chances. And is also surrounded by extreme talent.

HS
OldTownBuckNut's picture

These guys obviously haven’t heard of “throwing a reciever open.” Haskins delivers the ball where it needs to be for the reciever to then take a line that allows them YAC. Sure, the WR skills are freakishly good, but that’s only half the play. Ball has to get there. 

Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle. O-HI-O.

HS
Tanner's picture

I thought coming into the year that the biggest difference we'd see between Haskins & JT would be the short/intermediate passes. IMO, JT's biggest flaw as a passer was not the deep ball, it was throwing short/intermediate passes on time and on target. Even when he completed them they often weren't the kind of accurate passes that lead to to YAC. Haskins is the distributor we all thought JT was going to be. Ohio State almost always has better athletes on the offensive perimeter than they team they are playing. Just get the ball into their hands.

HS
shiloh's picture

According to one recent study, the glacier atop Alaska's Mount Hunter is melting at the fastest rate in 400 years. Colombia's glaciers have thinned by a third since the mid-1990s and are on track to disappear entirely in 30 years. In the Himalayas and the Tibetan Plateau, two-thirds of the glacial mass could be gone by the turn of the century. And Glacier National Park in Montana—which was named for the 150 or so glaciers once there—today has fewer than 30. “The rate of change now in the mountain glaciers is already faster than anything we see in the geological record,” says Joerg M. Schaefer, a climate geochemist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. “They just fly back. And it's accelerating.”

Indeed, many experts/scientists believe/expect when the temps rise by a degree or two a hundred years from now the earth will be unlivable! On the bright side, I'll be dead.

Also with sea levels rising, hurricane intensity increasing, etc. etc. Florida will no longer be a football hotbed of 5 star recruits. :-P

Of course, in the final analysis, as long as the Buckeyes keep beating ttun all is well w/the universe. Priorities!

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen ...

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain

HS
LeftCoastBuckeye's picture

That Swiss glacier retreat is small change.  Columbia Glacier in Alaska has retreated over 10 miles since I first saw it back in the 70's.  Several other accessible Alaska glaciers have either retreated out of sight, or ones that were formerly tidewater glaciers have pulled back out of the water.  The mention of Mt Hunter brought back memories, as I camped (on a glacier) almost right under it back in the day.  I've also fallen into a crevasse, as apparently did the unfortunate Swiss couple. Unlike them, I was roped, so am still here to haunt football blogs. 

My aim, then, is to whip the Weasels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.   - William Tecumseh Sherman (with apologies)

HS
McGrind's picture

Would’t mind at all if Hornibrook throws for 400 yards and wins B1G player of the week...this week. 

Justice delayed is justice denied....#FTP

HS
southalabamabuckeye's picture

Yes, the computer models and advanced statistics have their place, but they cannot provide common sense.

HS
ZeroDimension's picture

.1.  Can Hornibrook run the ball up the middle 20 times a game?  if so... then yes he would be starting over Haskins. (sorry, couldnt resist). .

One Shoe

HS
ZeroDimension's picture

1. Holtmann, love the guy... but I think it is good to temper expectations.  He struck lightning in a bottle with KBD.  But I still expect this team to take a step back into the 20-22 wins arena...  I think our schedule last year was very easy for a big ten schedule.  This years is not bad though... My personal pet peeve with Ohio State fans.. is that the majority are really Ohio state football only fans.. and they will sometimes chime in on basketball if they have had a bad day..

2.  11 warriors has really amped up on basketball... but I had to scream and yell last year.. just to get someone to update the basketball roster on the site near the end of November... So forgive me for not quite trusting 11 warriors basketball opinions and focus yet... They are some really great basketball forum posters who know their stuff..  And I tip my hat to 11 warriros for amping up the coverage... but I am move wait and see on 11 warriors basketball coverage, than a revamped basketball lineup... 

3.  Wisconsin?  2 spots above OSU in basketball ranking... I think they mis-hired with Guard... If you are going to assume they some how get alot better... then I guess it is fair to think Ohio State would only drop to around 5-6 with the turnover...  I need to study wisconsin a little more... but no matter their talent... they took a step back in coaching... 

One Shoe

HS
BuckeyeDrake's picture

Pretty sure Scott Steiner must have done the math for PFF on that one.

Its me Austin! It was me, all along!

HS
buckeyepastor's picture

Counting it against a QB because his receivers had a lot of YAC makes no sense to me.  If they have a lot of YAC, it is largely a measure of whether or not they got the ball in stride, a reflection on the QB.  Also, yes, Haskins has a lot of throws that aren’t all the way to the sticks.  But how many of those are first down throws.  On first and ten, it’s great to get 10+ yards, but it’s not necessary.   When WISC throws it tends to be because they absolutely have to, because it’s third and long.  

I pray that Chris Spielman is doing okay.  The horrible actions his son participated in at Wheaton had to weigh on him.  

"Woody would have wanted it that way" 

HS
jmagersobregon's picture

The WISC QB doesnt throw much, but Id wager that when he throws, its off play action and its down the field. This is the most likely reason for those numbers.

Because I couldn’t go for three

HS
PsyBuck's picture

This is what happens when you attempt to make yourself look so much smarter than everyone else. You come up with convoluted formulae that ignore the most basic metrics in favor of obscurity. I like most of the analysis of PFF but this one is just bad.

I've heard it said many times that YAC's are often the result of the QB placing the ball where the receiver doesn't have to adjust his positioning or even break his stride. Guess PFF didn't incorporate that idea into their analysis.

"No we don't give a da*n 'Bout the whole state of *ichigan"

HS