Secondary Our Primary Problem?

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osu992's picture

Do we have the athletes on defense to continue to play man?

No.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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logamaniac's picture

Well that’s not true.  We have 5 stars Sheffield and Okudah and wade.  The athletes we have. 

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osu992's picture

Two guys isn't enough for an entire defensive strategy.

And, at any rate, Denzel Ward is what you need for nonstop press man. Neither of those guys are that, yet.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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logamaniac's picture

Meh I listed 3 and yes having 2 or three dominant corners does actually affect defensive strategy. 

I agree with your edit.  But ward wasn’t amazing at the beginning of the season last year or his previous year either.  He improved like they will. 

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PRO8's picture

The better question is do we have the athletes with the skills necessary to play man coverage?  Like any position  you can be athletic but not have the skills to play it at a high level. Speed is not everything, nor is jumping ability, hips , etc., the the proper skills either through coaching or just having the ability , smarts , what ever you want to call it is needed to play at a high level .

 I would also add  that coaches also have to put you and your unit into the correct defense to do well.  If they don't will the head coach step in and make that happen?

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buckeyenut74's picture

Disagree. Four and five star recruits all over the secondary. 

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osu992's picture

"5 star" goes out the window when you sign that piece of paper. It isn't an issue of potential talent. It's an issue of development, technique, and execution. Regardless of what one guy can do, we're requiring all of them to do it every play such that the QB can't find an open target until the rest of the defense eliminates the non-throw options as well. No one has a problem with throwing a ball up on any of our DBs plus the middle of the field is regularly soft for slants and check downs.

This defensive strategy does not work for the DB technique taught at the level of development for those expected to execute it. And the LBs aren't executing assignments consistently enough to yield returns on the press man approach.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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lamplighter's picture

not sure why the DV - reasonable take.  Covered

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

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Ortonhallalumni's picture

This only the beginning..the need to progress greatly once they get on campus. It's not just coaching, but also the players drive to be that great player, and the work required to get there.

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GoBucks10's picture

Defense seems to be a problem.

There's no points for second place, gentlemen.

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Doug James's picture

Something is very wrong with the D.

We miss Bosa's pass rush.

Plus, I'm tired of our secondary celebrating a pass break-up, etc. even though the secondary has kinda stunk most of the games.

DJ

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logamaniac's picture

I’d be fine with it if they were shutting guys down like Ramsey does. 

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DownEastBuck's picture

Bosa rushing the passer makes the whole secondary better. I hope he gets back soon

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NHBuckeye's picture

He’s not going to be here next season so these other guys need to start stepping up.  

Fields of Dreams

 

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DownEastBuck's picture

True but he is here now so I hope he is ready to go soon

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AzBuck50's picture

There you go. The pass rush was non-existent in the first half. I thought the d-line played worse than the db's during that time frame. Very low energy. No enthusiasm. They couldn't get off any linemen's block. Then suddenly, after probably getting their ass chewed out, they came to life in the second half. Football is all motivation and energy, with some talent thrown in there too. We had very little of the first two things today in the first half.

Azbuckeye50

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Findog5's picture

Red Bull Coach is now with the Titans. 

The more you act like a lady the more likely he’ll act like a gentleman. 

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PhillyNut's picture

With the depth on the line and the opponents they are playing it should not matter that Bosa is out. Certainly not to the level of what they have allowed. Bosa was playing when much weaker teams were torching this defense for huge gains and easily getting receivers open.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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Ortonhallalumni's picture

The point of that is hes great at
Covering up for the rest of the defense....without him, others have to be responsible for their assignments.

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Mastro16's picture

*comes up with catchy ironic title for thread

*brilliant

*posts thread

*10/10 would upvote again

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Duccivespucci's picture

Our scheme isn’t working with this group, the improvements are minimal at best, none at worse. Too me, a great coach tweaks his system and philosophy to fit the talent, skill, and experience of the players on the team. Especially so in college. They look lost too much, too often as we are now six games in. Adjustments are needed if you want to win championships. We still have time and the schedule to improve but for right now it seems a little bit of a square peg for a round hole situation. Stuff to work on and it’s good to be 6-0 and working on it. 

Michael

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Osusam77's picture

Agree 100% 

Our scheme isn’t stopping the big play and there has been little overall improvement in the back 7. Maybe we don’t have the experience or the pro speed to run this one on one pro style D.

Great to have the win but our D did not play well for 3 quarters. Gave up a lot of yards. 

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GrapeApe's picture

Yes we have the athletes to play man. Athleticism isn’t the problem. It’s poor coaching. Schiano needs to find himself a new job ASAP 

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stuckupnorth's picture

Bingo. These guys are hand picked by the staff. These guys could go to any school they wanted. They are best of the best in high school. Athletes are not the problem. If it is the problem then again it’s on the staff for choosing them. I agree Schiano needs to go. He has had as much talent as anyone in the country. Yet it seems his defense underperform. It looks to me like he doesn’t make a quarterback uncomfortable. If the d line doesn’t dominate, the defense can’t get of the field. PSU made OSU looked very rushed last week. I don’t see the OSU doing that TCU the same. I’m not saying we gotta blitz every play. But make the QBs crap their pants sometimes.I know getting bosa back will help, these 50/50 balls the db are seemingly coming out on the wrong side of them. More like 75/25. To me it’s becoming more than luck on those jump balls. Because every team is winning those jump balls. I’m leaning toward technical.I don’t know the answer 

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Hoosierbuck7's picture

For starters it should be acknowledged that the D did turn it around and gave up only 89 yards in the second half. Minus a few penalties they really looked much better. I think Pryor and Browning are growing up.

The problem isn’t athletes. The problem is simplicity. A lot of NFL coaches on the defensive side of the ball throwing too much at almost an entirely new back seven. The margin for error is pretty thin in Schiano’s scheme, and the youth is being exposed. 

“I have yet to be in a game where luck was involved. Well-prepared players make plays. I have yet to be in a game where the most prepared team didn't win.” - Urban Meyer

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Blockandtackle's picture

Great insights. 

Pryor and Werner each had their best half of the year in the second half.

A joy which death alone can still.

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GrapeApe's picture

Werner has played well all season. He’s done exactly what has been asked of him. 

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buckbornbred's picture

Lol. He's the weakest one of the weakest links on the D, along w/ Borland and Pryor.

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I_Run_The_Dave's picture

"SECONDARY OUR PRIMARY PROBLEM?"
I would say it's more of a tertiary problem (see what I did there?), as in 3 of the 4 are struggling with understanding our scheme.

Your signature will be publicly displayed at the end of your comments.

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Optimistic Buckeye Pessimist's picture

Our problem is that we don’t change or evolve. We wait until the second half to even start playing the game. 

We play teams that have film, blueprints, and no less than 30 minutes to do whatever they want to us. Are we emphasizing recruiting too much?

Read my entire screen name....

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Tribefan007's picture

Schiano usually waits until halftime to make adjustments.  At least he makes adjustments and the defense usually improves in the second half.  There are coaches out there that don’t make any adjustments at all.  Our defense is young, especially our secondary.  Give them some time and they’ll be fine before too long!

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The Rill Dill's picture

Yes. Athletes, but not nasty football players. Too much thoroughbred, not enough mule/draft horse.

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Buckeye Chuck's picture

Got to give them a lot of credit for the second half — I think Indiana only had three first downs that weren't by penalty.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

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CDeck's picture

We are missing Kerry Combs. We loved his energy and personality but I think we underestimated how good of a coach he was. At least I did. I have never seen us this out of position this often and make so many bad pre snap reads. This also goes for Fickell with the linebackers.

These scars are from the "90's, Don't ask me to explain for I cannot bear to recount the horrors of those years.

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NoVAsmitty's picture

This is my theory. FWIW. 

Alabama gave up 31 points and 405 yards to an awful Arkansas today.  tOSU gave up 26 and 406 to a typically pesky Indiana today. We laugh about Harbaugh’s 1990s offense. Well, maybe our DC is wedded to a 1990s press man, cover 1, aggressive D that doesn’t work so good against 2018 college offenses. I think we might be in an era where the conventional wisdom of sound defensive schemes have been passed by the offenses and are being exploited. I don’t think it’s talent or development. It might be the coaches are scheming and calling what always worked ............ until (now) it doesn’t.   

“I intend to make Georgia howl.” General William Tecumseh Sherman

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infantrybuck's picture

Misleading.  They gave up all those yards in the second half with backups in

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irishfury's picture

Can tell you didnt watch the game.  Backsup did enter till midway through the fourth.  LOL

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infantrybuck's picture

I did watch it, they rotate guys at every position similar to us. Even if we agree to disagree about when the true backups came in the game from them.  comparing us, where we gave up 300 plus yards in the first half, to Alabama, who gave up a boat load of yards in the second half with many guys checked out because they were ahead by 40 is not a like comparison in my opinion

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lljjgg's picture

With all due respect Infantrybuck, I have to agree with Irishfury. Arkansas was marching the ball down the field at will against Alabama, even during the 1st half. It was very close to being 21-14 in the 2nd quarter before Arkansas's QB fumbled the ball at the goal line. I can't speak for the 2nd half because I didn't watch any of it, but in the 1st half Arkansas was definitely giving Alabama's defense problems. Unfortunately they were giving themselves problems too with boneheaded mistakes and turnovers that didn't bounce their way.

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BradentonBuck's picture

I don’t know what it is but we come out in the 2nd half and play great... every game. TCU, PSU and Indiana all looks like a different team after halftime. 

I’m not sure if they Co-Coordinators are comfortable changing on the fly without conferring about it or what... but they better fix it. Make the changes in the half not at it. Obviously they are capable. 

Buckeye til I die

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lamplighter's picture

I simply trust that it will be better by November

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

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GOOMBAY's picture

Hmmm. So you're saying you'll roll with lifelong professional football coaches and elite athletes to sort it out? I mean, I guess...

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buckbornbred's picture

Our linebackers, easily, are the defense's weakest link.

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Das Hufeisen's picture

I remember our secondary getting torched vs Cincinnati in 2014. Seemed like 4 TDs over 70 yards or something like that. If you'd told me a team with that secondary would win the CF Playoff I would've laughed at you.
That said I'm concerned about the back 7. Hopefully there will be leaps forward in player development and/or adjustments to schemes.

AKA the Horseshoe, the Shoe, and the House That Harley Built

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JCam061588's picture

We have the athletes, what we lack is the discipline & on top of that our D-Line has been decimated by injury & as a result is not applying the pressure needed for Schiano’s scheme to be effective.

"Because I couldn't go for three"

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Canukbuck's picture

One thing is pretty clear - whatever defensive scheme that we dial up after preparing to play a team, has not allowed us to start games very well and we give up a lot of big plays early in the game.  To the defensive staffs credit, they do make the necessary changes to turn the corner in the second half (saw it at TCU, PSU and now IU).

However, we have to find a way to come out of the gates much stronger defensively, otherwise we'll find ourselves dug into such a deep hole before the half, that we won't have the time to come back.

I will also concede a few things - there was obviously a bit of a hangover from the PSU game - the Hoosiers ALWAYS play us tough (we were down at the half last year, before pulling away in the 4th) - offensively, the staff seemed determined to run the ball, despite the fact that IU loaded the box (needed to remind the coaches that this wasn't a practice scrimmage, but a real game).  I was not surprised at how close the game was at the half and was glad the staff made the changes to help get the W ....

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Blackcoffee's picture

Yes maybe a deep hole if Haskins isn't playing, but we do not have to cross that bridge at present.

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BuckeyeMike74's picture

The defense is not good enough to win a national title.  And that’s the only thing that really matters.  

And it is all on the coaches.  The players are fine. 

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infantrybuck's picture

We really weren’t that good in 2014 either.  Auburn won a national title in 09 with an atrocious defense.  you only have to beat Alabama once, it’s not a seven game series.  It’s been done before

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youra6's picture

The problem what your statement is that Bama actually has a potent offense this year compared to previous years. Their defense is also elite. There is no way we can hang with Bama on both sides of the ball.

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GlassCityBuckeyes's picture

Crazy winning by 23 feels this way but you can definitely see the this team isn't playing to its full potential.

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stxbuck's picture

Okudah and Sheffield are not the problem. If you throw at CBs enough, you will eventually complete some passes or draw a PI, it's the nature of the game. Sheffield played very well in coverage today-I can almost guarantee that the coaches will not chew him out for the PI-50/50 calls like that are part of playing tight coverage, and a CB can't be scared to play exactly the same way on every other ball thrown his way. Neither Okudah nor Sheffield is particularly good at ballhawking or grabbing ints, they just play very solid coverage.

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infantrybuck's picture

I think they’ve been fine.  One thing I noticed this week and last is the press man leaves CBs very vulnerable to a hard plant/sudden change move that creates lots of separation. It allows for huge chunk plays with good WRs. 

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bucksfan4life's picture

Our safeties and LB's need to make more plays. The CB's aren't playing that badly from what I've seen. We are getting next to nothing from LB and S though. Even Fuller has been disappointing this year.

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youra6's picture

How is giving up nearly 250 yards in the air in the first half not playing 'badly"? Yeah I get it things tightnened up a bit in the second half but our secondary got burned almost every defensive series.

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elitesmithie's picture

Concerns.

1. Lack of consistent running game. This is problem number 1 because it allows you to control the game and also give your defense rest and time to make adjustments. Also it keeps us from being 1 dimenesional. 

2. Our defense doesn't help each other. D line gets to far up field which leaves wide gaps for LB's. Safeties don't make correct angles and we don't mix our schemes on the back 7 well.

3. With all that said, we should never have to blitz with how good our D line is. This should give us more help behind the LB's where we are getting torched. 

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irishfury's picture

A little.  Once Pryor came back second half it seem to really help.  First and foremost teams plays us like its there superbowl beating us makes a teams season if we win even by 23 its just beating Indiana.  The amount of 50-50 balls and circus catches against us is insane.  Sheffield didn't get beat by anything but someone making a great play.  Okunda I think is doing great for so early in career I think he will be a shutdown next year.  Our Dline played its worst game of the season today seems no one but Young had any energy and no joke this might be the worst group of tackling linebackers I've ever scene.  It frustating they wont give Hillard and Booker a chance.  Im sorry Werner and Boreland just arnt cutting it.

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Buckeye06's picture

My issue isnt fully the scheme or players.  It’s that we are so predictable every down.  The scheme is fine to run 70% of the time but not 100%.  The offense knows the look they are getting on the outside every down without doing any diagnosis.  Change it up 5-10 plays a game to put some confusion in.  See what happens 

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Johnny Amerikos's picture

Just cancel the season...

What do people get out of sports? Genuine question. 5 days a week, I deal with customers, bosses, co-workers, stress, school projects, deadlines, annoying personalities, did I mention stress already? We get 24/7 coverage of sports, politics, news, arguments, stress (again), analytics...

Yesterday, I smoked a pork shoulder. I got a few things done around the house earlier, then I watched my favorite team on the recliner while drinking beer. I watched some other games earlier in the day, texting brother and friend and giving each other shit for lousy football picks. It was a good day. And the Buckeyes won.

Why do we do this? Why do we need to pick apart every detail of everything? Why do we need to compare ourselves against Alabama for validation of our own success? Why do we need to inject our real life bullshit and stress into a football game? Why does every week have to be fire coach ________, bench player _______? This is supposed to a good thing. A fun thing. We are spoiled. 

Some seasons we like to brag about all the kids we have going to the draft, leaving early for the draft... Other seasons we like to debate whether our players are bad or our coaches are bad. We're sitting here a week into October saying that we're not good enough to win a championship. Well la dee fuckin da 11W, just cancel the season then.

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youra6's picture

What do people get out of sports? I should ask you why you are here. It's probably the same reason.

The reason why we are here is because we are passionate fans who need a social outlet to express our praise, concerns, etc.

While I fully respect your opinion, I have to disagree with you. If we didn't have things to talk about we might as well shut this site down then.

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Johnny Amerikos's picture

"There's no way we can hang with Bama on both sides of the ball." So, discussion is over then, right?

If that were a quote from an ESPN analyst, it would be its own thread here and we'd be ripping it to shreds.

But it's not a quote from ESPN. It's a quote from the #1 Buckeyes fan site by a Buckeyes fan. That's an example of what I'm talking about. The team has flaws, yes. They're working on them. They replaced a lot of talent on defense pretty quickly the last couple of years. It's tends to catch up.

Let's just try to enjoy the ride is all I'm saying. 2014 was a very flawed team for most of the season. They looked terrible against Penn State that year. But they got it together at the right time and it was very satisfying to watch without expectations in the stratosphere.

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youra6's picture

No that's just my opinion. Anyone is free to disagree or agree with me. In 2014 we peaked just at the right time. We can do it this year but our defense has looked shaky from the start and it hasn't really improved over 6 games.

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buckbornbred's picture

The absence of Pryor (or the presence of Wint), weak D-line play, and poor tackling by the linebackers were the culprits. Our linebackers are just so incredibly weak. This may be the worst linebacker corps in the history of tOSU football.
 

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BuckeyeFanInBoulder's picture

The LBs actually recorded tackles this week, sooooo there's that.

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bd2999's picture

Really, all aspects of defense are struggling in some form or fashion. With or without Bosa it has been a problem, so losing him was not the main problem. 

I do think the CBs are good but many teams are exploiting the man coverage weaknesses and going after it over and over again. As they should. When they start doing more zone concepts and mixing it up, they have more success. 

I am really only surprised tht the defense comes out looking so stale and unprepared in the first part of games. Not sure why you do not come out with a mix of a man and zone and go from there. This scheme did help OSU with the title but given the lack of discipline at all levels of defense, they need to mix it up a bit more. 

The big plays have a fair bit to do with lack of maintaining assignment, poor tackling at times and major lack of discipline on some plays. This is a problem. Scheme wise, it is fixable, we see that in the second half of many games, but for the life of me I do not understand why things are not done from the get go of games. 

Against IU, I am sure there was some lag after the emotional PSU win, but they need to pick it up. I do think IU is a solid team, but they are not world beaters either (that said, I think they are better than Arkansas etc.)

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ShawneeBuck74's picture

Schiano had us move from a Cover 4/Quarters to a lot of Cover 1 press man/blitz style.

Worked best in 2016 when we had Malik Hooker covering sideline to sideline along with Lattimore, Conley, and Ward (all first round DBs).

Worked pretty well last year when we still had Ward and a vet in Damon Webb.

We have both inexperience at safety AND our starting corners are good but not 1st round talents.  We have two new coaches of DBs in Taver and Alex.  No surprise that we are struggling in this area. 

When we do switch it up and play more press-Cover 4, the whole defense looks better.  We don’t have the horses to run Cover-1 press man blitzing NFL Defense (yet).

You win with people. 

And so forth...

9 Units Strong!

 

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JSH0717's picture

I actually think this is the offenses way of responding to overall football trends- 90's you saw 21 personnel defense answered with cover 9 (inverted 2, practically 9 in the box).  Offense goes spread negating cover 9, defense responds with cover 4 (move toward athletic safeties that are defenses best players), offense responds with RPO, now Cover 1 press negating a lot of the RPO from WR position.  In order to respond Offenses had to get better at 1 on 1 match-ups on the outside.  More than once IU, PSU, and TCU WR's just made all out baller catches.  

Now the need to pressure ALLL the time is a different beef for me defensively. 

GO BUCKS!

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TurboNut's picture

People are ragging on our LB's pretty hard but they are up at the line of scrimmage 95% of the time. They can't move around to fill gaps when they are already in one. This isn't the LB's fault, they are doing what they are supposed to for the play that was called. Our defensive play calling is all or nothing with no safety net at all. We either sack the quarterback or drop the RB for a loss or if they beat our pressure and have a big gain. I'd hate to go to the casino with Greg Schiano, he probably throws down all of his cash at the first table he sees and either wins big or goes home broke after 2 minutes. That pretty much sums up our defensive play calling. 

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UA Buck's picture

Athletic ability (except for Wint) is not the problem i.m.o.,the lack of technique and assignment soundness is.Those and the fact that there seems to be no real accountability for making the same mistakes over and over.Put them in the bench,don't reward bad play.Arnette,Pryor,and Wint are not starter quality on an upper-level Power 5 team i.m.o.

Joe Swartz

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