Hindsight Roundtable: What *Should* Have Happened?

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Hovenaut's picture

This is a fantastic read, and welcome the detailed input from both Ms. Lukan and Ms. Schmidt here.

"I think someone else may have mentioned this, but some of the coverage also proved a lack of knowledge about domestic violence among some media members. I said earlier that I think we all probably have a responsibility for educating ourselves on the subject, but that that goes double for journalists covering a story that touches on the topic."

There's so much that anyone can take away from all of this, but Alison Lukan's words ring true here (for me...especially as a husband and father).

Not to take away from the roundtable, but want to take a moment to appreciate 11W staff for the fair, consistent, and timely coverage throughout - well done, folks.

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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HarleysHouse's picture

I disagree. Like the national media criticism, I think the point of the article of what *should* have been done was barely addressed. The most visible critics like Heather Dinich and Gerry DiNardo have criticize OSU for not doing enough to help the victim without making a single suggestion as to what *should* be done in these situations beyond firing the individual. The reason is because there is no easy answer. The university's relationship is with Zach Smith and its only legal recourse was termination whether that was in 2018, 2015 or earlier. What is the university's responsibility to Courtney Smith now or previously? ESPN's legal analyst struggled to think of a single reason Courtney Smith would have a legal case against OSU because OSU doesn't have any legal obligations to someone who has no relationship with the university. What I am tired of hearing is how anyone involved in this should have helped Courtney Smith more. Please tell me how that was *suppose* to work. And if you fail to adequately help and Zach continues to abuse her even after termination, are you legally or morally liable? If you fire an employee and then they go home and take it out on their spouse, are you responsible for their further actions? Ohio State has well over 100,000 people they are already watching after; add spouses, children, boyfriends, girlfriends and that becomes a ridiculous number. Again, I don't want to hear about how they should have done more. Please tell me what that "more" is.

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Urbane Meijer's picture

Exactly.  Plus you have to remember that Courtney did not want Zach fired.  All these pundits are saying OSU should have fired Zach earlier, when it's pretty clear to me that Urban was trying to do what he thought was best for Zach and his family.  Firing Zach would have been best for Urban, and for OSU, but even in with hindsight it is hard to say it would have been best for the Smiths.  

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bornbredbuckeye's picture

Exactly, What if the termination of Zach caused him to go even more crazy and God forbid take the life of his ex-wife? What would the national media accuse OSU and Meyer of then? 

GO BUCKS!!! *ichigan sucks!!!

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The Rill Dill's picture

You’re assuming he abused her in the first place.

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EarleFan's picture

Bingo! 

"I didn't get a harrumph outta that guy!"

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linepilot15's picture

Exactly, firing Zake would have been the easiest thing to do. It's been established that Zake had gi8ven Urban reason to fire him but he didn't want to. He wanted to try to help him. Was it a mistake...yep. Hindsight is always 20/20 and don't forget that Urban was not aware of everything that went on. The DUI, the embarrassing pictures, the affair to name a few. 

I'll say one thing, Ramzy has remained consistent throughout this whole thing. The one line in this that I really thought was strange was-

 " I still cannot determine if getting simultaneously accused for cheerleading for OSU and virtue signaling/unfairly crushing OSU is a sign of doing it right,"

I guess I missed the day he was cheerleading for OSU. 

linepilot

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infantrybuck's picture

Ramzy was critical of mcmurphy's one sided journalistic integrity, maybe that's cheerleading for OSU?

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buckeyepastor's picture

I take your point, that many in the media have been ridiculously unreasonable in their grand-standing and outrage, and pretty worthless in offering anything constructive.   Apart from McMurphy, who in this media universe that all seem so concerned for Courtney Smith has even reached out to her.  Clearly, she's happy to share her story and reach out.   

But I think the conversation above had some helpful things to offer, not that Meyer needed to do MORE but that Meyer needed to do BETTER.   What does that look like?  Maybe, eventually, firing.   But for certain, investigating.   For certain, confirming.  For certain, setting in motion mechanisms of accountability that are in place in the athletic department.   For certain, placing matters of personnel misconduct in the hands of people whose job title is purely and simply dealing with personnel misconduct.   

"Woody would have wanted it that way" 

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BuckIhateTTUN's picture

Interesting piece, but have any of the panelists led a large organization before? If not, no offense, but they have no idea what the challenge of leading a large organization entails. They can opine all they want to, but their credibility is lacking until they actually walk the walk. A far more credible panel would consist of a few CEOs, medium-to-large business owners, government leaders, and military commanders who have dealt with crisis within their organization. The opinion of those who have never endured the leadership crucible carries no weight among those who have. And for those who have, the perspective on this situation is likely, "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

"If you're going through Hell, keep going." Sir Winston

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Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

Interesting piece, but have any of the panelists led a large organization before? If not, no offense, but they have no idea what the challenge of leading a large organization entails.

I ran one of the global businesses for a $70B conglomerate for several years and am currently the CEO of two companies, a 3,000+ healthcare association and also a medical research, education and innovation foundation. I go to bed every night thinking about the well-being of the people in my charge, the patients affected by our actions (or inactions) and the doctors and nurses who represent us in hospitals all over the world.

I think about our 11W readers too, but not at bedtime. That would be weird.

BuckIhateTTUN's picture

Ramzy, thanks much for the background! Definitely helps to put your comments into context. The passion with which you regard your people is shared by most leaders.  The dedication to our people is intrinsic in how we establish and run our organizational processes. But randomness has a vote in any human endeavor. No matter how well a personnel system is designed, monitored, and led, it's not error proof. It's how leaders react to those errors that matters most. 

Personally, I can relate to Urban's situation quite closely, because I did the exact same thing about 11 years ago--stood by an employee way too long thinking I could help him turn his life around. No policy can effectively govern such situations which is why we have leaders, and in matters such as this, leaders should be given wide latitude because rarely does anyone make the right decision in every case. It's easy to judge the appropriateness of an action in hindsight--much more difficult to do it in real time.

"If you're going through Hell, keep going." Sir Winston

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Findlay419Buckeye's picture

I knew you were pretty cool when we met at the Dubcast a few years ago.  Now I see why.

Findlay by birth, Buckeye by the grace of God.

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njcro's picture

I appreciate the coverage in a roundtable format as well. Commendable. 

I ran out of time to finish reading all this. Was the topic that Courtney Smith may have tried to weaponize the judicial system ever discussed?  It seems like for the 1/4 that I read there was a general acceptance that Courtney Smith was physically abused.  Certainly, the P.D. may consider her recounts and her evidence insufficient as a credible cause to make charges or arrest. OSU, without the same power or responsibility, is somehow supposed to go further? 

Some of the other ZS activities were cause for termination. 

But everyone wants this to be about how OSU handled domestic violence... and if anyone wanted to have a real conversation about it... they would have to discuss the possibility that CS was trying to get back at Zach (for being a total dirtbag).  Maybe if the investigation stayed on that topic they would have found out information that would explain why Meyer and G.Smith acted the way they did about the DV accusations - Simply that they weren't credible or CS wouldn't cooperate to the degree to be able to do anything about them.  Should a person lose their job based on accusations or should they have due process?  Again, there were other reasons why ZS should have been terminated and I believe that is what the mea culpa was for at the press conference and this also explains Meyers response on what he would say to Courtney.  He has nothing to say because he believes he handled that situation correctly. He gave ZS due process and determined the claims weren't credible.... just like the police department did. 

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BornAndBredABuck's picture

This is dead-on my take, Njcro, and why this whole article came across to me as a useless circlejerk.

ZS deserved to be fired for many reasons, exactly ZERO of which include Domestic Violence-- a crime for which HE HAS NEVER BEEN CHARGED. (He was arrested once, in FL, in 2009, in a case that ultimately never led to even a single charge.).

Turning this into a referendum on DV is as irrelevant as turning it into one on strip clubs or DUIs-- actually, less so, since the first might be a violation of the rules governing the way ZS was supposed to perform his job, and the second is an actual criminal act, and BOTH OF WHICH CAN BE PROVEN TO HAVE ACTUALLY OCCURRED.

All this article did for me was validate that Ramzy has a great deal of rage against ZS and, to a lesser extent, UFM.

"Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect." -- Woody Hayes

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SilverHaven's picture

Hove, mahalo, you're always the gentleman. 

But whoa, what happened?  I come to 11W for Ohio State sports, esp. football.

Is 11W becoming like ESPN, consumed with political commentary and starting to go downhill?
For example, in the Wall Street Journal,
"How a Weakened ESPN Became Consumed by Politics"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-a-weakened-espn-became-consumed-by-poli...

Let's talk football. Aloha!

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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1xbuck's picture

Since this saga was first reported, I have tried to look at this situation from all angles. I made assumptions.(On both sides) and still have mixed feelings. I long assumed that when Zach got into coaching that he would someday end up at OSU even before the Urban was even a sparkle in the eye for Ohio State fans. When Urban got the job I knew it was only a matter of time. I felt this way because that is what coaches do. They are a fraternity of family and friends and they try to take care of each other. So I fully understand why Zach was perhaps given a longer leash than most was simply because of Earle.

With that being said though, I tried to think about Urban's choices from an as objective perspective I could. Let's go back to Florida. You have a former player you allowed to walk-on to your team at Bowling Green who then joins you at Florida as a grad assistant and then hired as a quality control guy. A job designed to be filled at the pleasure of the head coach. Zach gets married, wife gets pregnant, they have a fight, and Zach is arrested. What is Urban to do? If he immediately fires Zach at that instant we are not where we are today. However, where would Zach and Courtney be? Zach would be jobless with a baby on the way and probably would resent Courtney and blaming her for his failures. That is why I believe Urban felt they had to try to work it out. Urban surely know the challenges of being a young coach with a bride and children. I he cut Zach loose then, does he solve an immediate issue or does he create a bigger problem? I think he felt that their marriage would take a serious hit and tried his best to see they work it out. However, who know what a fledgling domestic abuser would do when he would probably place all blame on the victim. I fear that something more drastic could have emerged from that situation and then Urban would be blamed for cutting him loose too soon.

So Urban cannot win anyway you look at it. We have the hindsight now to recognize Zach had issues, but so do a lot of people. We tend to make judgement of "other" people with the thought we can't be judged in the same light. Zach was a terrible husband and that can't be denied. The collegiate coaching profession quietly frowns on unmarried assistants and they are often encouraged to marry sooner than they should. "It looks good for the resume" is the response often heard from coaching applicants. So Urban had to make a judgement call based on what he thought was a one time thing and they would work it out. That was in 2009 everybody.

From 2009 to 2015 there were literally crickets from the relationships publicly. Then Courtney finds out Zach cheated on her after years of suspecting in and the "sh*t hits the fan". I was clearly downhill from there and something happened in 2015 that caused the authorities to launch an investigation. No arrest was made and charges were made. I am sure after that incident Zach was warned that any future sh*t and you're gone. Well, that sh*t happened this Spring and where we are today. We can only go forward from here because it is where we are. All of this ifs and buts speculation isn't going to make a Merry Christmas. Now we ask our very handsomely paid head coach to be a winner, leader of young men, PR guy, and now Inspector Gadget because he will need multiple gadgets to monitor every little thing his players and staff do on and off the clock. 

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BuckeyeSaab's picture

I like how for many people Urban’s three game suspension has magically turned TCU into a meaningless cupcake game. 

Who is blue, fast and likes rangs?  The Dankey Kang.

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bd2999's picture

I mean for some, but it is going to be the stiffest test of the early season, Meyer or no Meyer. And it is hard to tell how the team to respond. They lost a fair bit but OSU is inexperienced too.

That said, we have learned from previous years, if only talking football, that if you are going to lose than losing ooc seems to be the way to do it. Rather win it and every other game but have to wait and see how the team looks in the first two games. The one against TCU is going to be tough for sure.

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costinjr's picture

I think he was referring to the fact that the TCU game was labeled a marquee game pre-suspension, but the narrative now is that OSU suspended Urban for Oregon State, Rutgers & TCU -- "three cupcakes." It wouldn't fit their narrative that TCU is actually a tough opponent.

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BuckeyeSaab's picture

That is exactly it.

The narrative is, "light punishment" and in order to maintain that what was a tough challenge just the other day has instantly morphed a "soft" game.  Regardless of your feelings on if Meyer should have been fired to not the TCU game isn't cupcake.  However that's the drum the media is beating.  Actually has me a little worried for that game.  Hopefully by the time we get to game week the TCU=cupcake nonsense as died down.

Who is blue, fast and likes rangs?  The Dankey Kang.

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ibuck's picture

the narrative now is that OSU suspended Urban for Oregon State, Rutgers & TCU -- "three cupcakes." It wouldn't fit their narrative that TCU is actually a tough opponent.

At this moment, TCU looks to be a tough opponent. One wonders if Urban's suspension was extended to three games so that sports and national media would not have cynically said, "Sure, they suspended him for 2 cupcakes, but are bringing him back for the big out of conference game."

Our honor defend, so we'll fight to the end !

HS
ibuck's picture

Additionally, I've lost even more respect for ESPN and their caustic effect on sports, particularly college football. In particular, McMurphy, Finebaum and Dinich, but in my view, even Herbstreit is now tainted. IMO, whatever they say is calculated to flatter the SEC and denigrate all others.

ESPN has moved from being an SEC proponent to being a propagandist organization. If we had real monopoly controls in the US, they likely would not have the outsized influence they have. 

Our honor defend, so we'll fight to the end !

HS
bd2999's picture

Who is saying that though, I must be out of the loop. The media, the fans?

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BuckeyeSaab's picture

BD,

No need to look at the fans and media...  the soft narrative can be found right in this very article...

ALISON: i think it goes back to Lori’s point. We need to understand what evidence provided the “good faith” counter. We don’t. And also we know the first three games are soft schedule-wise. (And you can’t cherry pick which games to suspend someone for).

The way I see it Alison is either uninformed on the topic of who TCU is, and is therefore unqualified to make judgements on the softness of the first three games, or she does know that TCU is going to be a tough out, if it even is an out, but is simply disregarding her knowledge of TCU strengths so she can add the intensifier "soft games" to the "Urban got off easy" story.

And no one called her on it.

Who is blue, fast and likes rangs?  The Dankey Kang.

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TheBadOwl's picture

Not that it's meaningless, but it's not a necessary game to achieve Ohio State's two biggest on-field goals this year (B1G and national titles).

It's a showcase game for recruiting – so it has some meaning – and could bolster OSU's playoff resume (although it's not as important as winning the conference) but suspending Urban for, say, five games (through Penn State) would've obviously carried much more weight. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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buckeyes2353's picture

Oh come on. Our marquee non conference win is what got us into the playoffs in 2016 and our marquee non conference loss is what kept us out of the playoffs last year. Even with the Iowa game we would have still been in the playoffs last year if we didn't lose to Oklahoma.

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buckslan's picture

Didn't lose.. Or didn't schedule Oklahoma. Had we not even played them last year, we would have been in the playoffs. Alabama was able to get in because they played a weaker schedule and only had one loss. The committee says SOS matters but what really matters is did you lose 2 or less games.

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Nashville's picture

But the committee was totally ready to put a two loss Auburn team in if they had beaten Georgia in the SEC CG 

"You can never pay back, but you can always pay forward."

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buckslan's picture

That's true Nashville, but there is also a bias there for SEC teams. No other conference in America would get that kind of benefit. How many teams would have been in the playoffs last year that went 11-1, didn't make their conference title game, lost to the only good team they played, their best wins were 3-4 loss Miss State and LSU, and had an FCS team on the schedule. The answer is only one, and it happened.

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ibuck's picture

The committee says SOS matters but what really matters is did you lose 2 or less games.

Exactly. The committee is a colossal waste of time and money because of their overreliance on the "eye test," namely how many losses did they have. Sixth graders could do that.

Our honor defend, so we'll fight to the end !

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Huskerbuck's picture

Leadership. especially Drake and the BoT, needs to be more focused on doing the right thing and less concerned about protecting themselves via "political correctness." The way they treated Urban and Gene was excessive. Hopefully they will both hang in there but who could blame them if either walks away due to lack of support by a "PC president" and a BoT who obviously went along? 

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Dstacify's picture

The BoT can make up for it by getting rid of Drake ASAP. Right now he's insulting the intelligence of the OSU campus body to appease the masses outside the school and it's disgusting. He has no right to continue representing tOSU after this.

11 Strong.

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CptBuckeye24's picture

I think Drake was ill-prepared and did not sound articulate like one would expect from a university president. That was an opportunity for Drake to demonstrate leadership and seize the moment in the press conference to try to get ahead of the media onslaught that was ahead. 

I'll say this about Drake. He may be a good administrator but OSU is not the right fit for him. With OSU being the large public university that is and an even bigger brand, Drake is not the right fit for that role. Someone with charisma, energy, and capable of being the face of the university (outside of athletics) is a requirement. Gee was a rockstar on campus but OSU needs a leader who has some sort of charisma. It is probably very unsettling to someone like Drake that Urban is more powerful than he is and this whole saga really reinforces that. 

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0H-10's picture

I hear Youngstown State has a good President.

o||||||o

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grantlandR's picture

You sit through nearly 12 hours of deliberations at 68 years of age, and see how energized you feel at the end. :-)
I recently heard Dr. Drake speak at my daughter's graduation. He was personable, funny, and down to earth while delivering insightful, meaningful advise that avoided all the usual cliches. Many there later said they wanted an encore! Best I'd heard since Rod Sterling spoke at my sister's graduation.

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cricejr's picture

What's truly disgusting is that you have an obvious lack up clarity and vision, and ignorance in general.  Drake's being out front and wanting a suspension of some kind was the best thing that could happen.  SOMEONE needed to be an adult in this situation and realize that no punishment at all would have been the worst thing possible.  Something had to happen; the shadiness that took place easily could have meant a firing (not that I would have agreed with it but damn, his negligence of Zach's activities is just striking).  Ohio State is not a football factory, which you seem to think that it is.  It's an institution of higher learning and integrity matters, even if people like you have none.  If anyone has no right to represent The Ohio State University, it is YOU.

My only real issue in all of this is why hasn't the national media, or even this article, addressed the fact that no one actually believes this woman was abused.  It's like we keep talking about how awful domestic violence is, and it is, but ignoring the fact that her own mother doesn't believe it happened.  I think that is a significant point that is being pushed to the side for the purpose of being self-righteous. 

I bleed scarlet...literally

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OSU_JD's picture

Negligence in the mismanagement of an employee is not a suspendable offense. 

realize that no punishment at all would have been the worst thing possible. 

I disagree.  You now have it that if anything else comes out, no matter how benign, they're going to need to fire him.  Drake forgot that Solomon didn't *actually* split the baby. 

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BuckeyeJay's picture

Negligence in the mismanagement of an employee is not a suspendable offense. 

You are right, it's a FIREABLE offense. 

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CptBuckeye24's picture

My dad always says, "I don't blame you, I blame the guy that hired you." 

He attributes that saying to Paul Brown...not sure if that is true.

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cricejr's picture

Bible analogies are the absolutely most absurd thing to state in this circumstance. It seems that you deal in a world of absolutes, either fire the guy or no punishment at all.  The real world does not work like that; the outrage if there was no punishment at all would have been overwhelming.  Let the media get all of this off their chest about the suspension until the next big story comes, and there always is one.  Drake's actions were more than justified.  Maybe you should be an SEC fan where it just means more and school is an afterthought. 

I bleed scarlet...literally

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Milk Steak To Go's picture

I think the report shows Meyer moved past negligent management into reckless management.

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Dstacify's picture

You're defending a man who refused to release the full reports of the investigation findings (in regards to the validity of CS's claims) because he was afraid of a witch hunt against the school. So instead he forced Meyer and Gene to fall on the sword. And guess what? A witch hunt against the school is still happening, only now Drake has alienated many of his own campus body as well. That's scapegoating at its finest right there. You're an idiot if you think Drake deserves our support after this. He deserves to be run out of Columbus after this botch on top of the Jon Waters travesty years ago. This isn't just about football. Drake is making himself look like a shitty person to work for in general right now (not to mention making OSU look like a hostile work environment). In his desperate quest to make the school look better he actually made it look worse instead by making it appear as if they spent $500K on this investigation only to not bother turning over the full findings of it (which supposedly Snook is receiving today). If he wants to explain his justification for that nonsense I'm all ears but Wednesday was soooo poorly handled on Drake's part. There is no denying that.

11 Strong.

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cricejr's picture

........I'll just say that I'm not surprised in the least that you used the overwhought term "witch hunt". Drake does not owe you anything and you're an idiot if  you believe that the President of a university owes you because you aren't happy with his decision.  And hostile work environment????  What a reach!  But thanks for the laugh, I really needed one. 

I bleed scarlet...literally

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BuckeyeinFlorida's picture

Absolutely right. People with anger and hate (Drake and everyone who has spoken the word journalist) Need to accept what is done and move forward. 7+ days until football. Focus on the positive things we have to be thankful for.

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aj99's picture

I think they believe she was abused in 2009.  I thought that was clear from the wording in the report.  I was really annoyed by the suspension until I read the report.  And then I was like wow. I'm surprised they didn't fire him.

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CptBuckeye24's picture

I was really annoyed by the suspension until I read the report.  And then I was like wow. I'm surprised they didn't fire him.

When I read the report, I thought that too. When we heard no punishment at all was a plausible scenario and I then read the report, I am not sure how someone might be able to get to that conclusion. To me, the deletion of text messages and the favoritism of Smith were rather damning key findings.

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2morrow's picture

After having seen this play out, I'd think less of Urban if he didn't delete his text messages. The suspension simply added fuel to the fire. If he was so wrong - fire him. If not, reinstate with no punishment. They took the 1/2a$$ed road like the bumbling pc idiots that they are.

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0H-10's picture

To be fair, I believe that is just the 'OSU summary of the report'...the controlled 'spin' in the direction of their choosing if you will. Any hot-button social issues (with the initials CS) that do not fit the PC agenda of the BoT and its $1620/hour investigation has been omitted...until a later 'less public' date. But I may be jaded as the product of domestic violence.

o||||||o

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BELLEFONTAINEBUCKEYE's picture

Same here Aj99. I blasted Ramzy for his tweet about how much of a horrible scumbag ZS was and everyone on staff knew.

After reading the report I issued an apology to Ramzy.

UFM is a great coach and a great man, and I feel he will make this right.

IMADELOUSYPICKS

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PhillyNut's picture

Why?  Because a bunch of journalists were demanding heads?

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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ibuck's picture

Why?  Because a bunch of ill-informed, agenda-pushing journalists were demanding heads?

FTFY.  

If you, as a journalist, report or tweet your opinion without showing your work (facts and reasoning), it's Eddie Haskell journalism.

Our honor defend, so we'll fight to the end !

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Buckeye Chuck's picture

It's just my opinion, but to the extent that there's a belief out there that Drake and the BoT were somehow at odds on this, I suspect this is really, really not the case.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

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terryin20878's picture

Reporters close to the scene claim otherwise.

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BuckeyeJay's picture

A BoT Member

Krueger called the group cohesive in its decision-making and reports of a divide between the OSU trustees and President Drake wasn't true.

And said this when asked whether President Drake wanted to fire Urban Meyer.

"Did Doctor Drake want to fire him? No, Not to my knowledge, " said Krueger. She says no one on the board wanted to fire him. "If that's the case I never heard it. But I never heard that come from his mouth. "

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Urbane Meijer's picture

I trust that quote is exactly the position that the board decided to present.  I don't trust that it is accurate.  (It _might_ be, I just don't lend it any more credence than any other insider rumor.)

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Beantown_Buckeye's picture

You have to admit there is irony here about most of this board blasting the national media for driving a narrative, yet believing one isolated report that it was Drake vs. the BOT and going crazy about how awful Drake even though that story wasn't confirmed. Now we have a quote from a board member stating that was not the case. I'm guessing that like with the national media not backing off their narrative, people here won't back off theirs. Let's face it whether its media or people in general, in 2018 a lot of people just believe what they set out to believe and won't back off of that.

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SilverHaven's picture

That's a comment from 1 out of 20.
But it's good to hear that she perceived none wanted termination.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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TheBadOwl's picture

Honest question: how much of this roundtable did you actually read? 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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Blackcoffee's picture

Hell Urban's done some questionable stuff with regard to Zack over the last few years. None probable cause for firing, but nonetheless questionable decisions in as much as the 23 page report suggests. As well, the slightest hint that him and this cat from Florida even had a discussion regarding deleting tweets, no matter whoo instigated the converation is surreal, at best. As one person suggested Urban really needs to listen better to his crisis control consultant. The Board of Trustees are some harsh cats, many with money and power. Drake was hired to take no nonsense approach to the type of shenanigans that followed Zack Smith like dirt following pigpen, and the inability of a coach and athletic director to get it all under control. Like was mentioned above, a mediocre coach would not have survived this.

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Milk Steak To Go's picture

Not showing up to recruiting visits and saying you were there is more than enough.  If Urban would have heeded Gene's advice regarding Zach at any point, OSU wouldn't be in this mess.

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CieGrant_Blitz's picture

Bingo.  To me the biggest lesson in this is Urban's loyalty to Coach Bruce extending to ZS was completely uncalled for and came back to bite him. 

A simple "Coach Bruce, I love you, you're like a father to me but ZS is failing to meet the standard at OSU in many ways and he will not be retained for next season.  I will gladly pay for counseling for he and Courtney and help him find a new job once he has earned that opportunity." 

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Blackcoffee's picture

I get it; however, after 2015 they did a flipflop, and Urban wanted to get rid of Zack and Gene did not, at least if the what the boys at cleveland.com are saying is correct.

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Go1Bucks's picture

Lets face it. As an organization, no one cares about the truth. They only care about perception. Thats what this whole farce is about. And it IS a farce, from the get go.

Go Bucks!

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NCBUCKNUT's picture

It was more than a slap on the wrist. He is not being paid during the suspension. That amounts to a pretty hefty financial punishment

Make Will-Way your Way!

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Dstacify's picture

Thought that only applied to Gene. Meyer's suspension I thought was a paid one (which would make more sense considering the time he's already served).

11 Strong.

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brutus0717's picture

I'm pretty sure I saw this Urban's suspension was switched to "unpaid", retroactive to the beginning of the administrative leave.

"We gotta go win this next game and make the State of Ohio proud!"-UFM

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SilverHaven's picture

Yes, the paid "leave of absence" was changed retroactively to "suspension" without pay.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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TheBadOwl's picture

Hefty by most peoples' standards, but it's less than 1% of his total contract and just under 5% of his yearly earnings on that deal – and he also has endorsements, investments, etc. that he's likely getting money from. 

My math may be off here, but I believe that it's going to knock down his earnings this year (not counting endorsements, speaking engagements, investment income, etc) from $7.6 million to a paltry $7.2 million. Poor guy!

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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Urbane Meijer's picture

It's real money to you and me, but I don't think it's a huge deal to Urban.  People seem to be thinking of it in terms of "game checks" but I'm pretty sure Urban is salaried over the year, and thus it is 6/52 or about 11%.  It also probably doesn't affect his bonuses etc.

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SilverHaven's picture

Yes, Urbane, her "math is off here."
I calc. similar to you 7/52 or 13.5% of $7.6 M = approx $1 million.  And Urban already lost the Bob Evans promo. deal.
And who is really hurt by this suspension?
The players? The team? The recruits? The football program? The athletic dept? The university?
A personal fine of $1 million would have the same impact on Urban, but not hurt the many others associated with OSU football. 
And BTW can OSU admin. donate that $1 million they saved to worthy causes? There's thinking outside the box.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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Earle's picture

My hindsight:

1) Zach and Courtney should never have gotten married

2) Urban should never have hired Zach

3) Brett McMurphy's parents should have practiced birth control

Axe leukemia!
#Poppystrong

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RubixTube's picture

Never before in the history of man have lives less lived been more chronicled. - Dennis Miller

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G.'s picture

#3... By this statement some in the media might consider you the type of person who hates free speech and/or believes that people should not be allowed to pursue actions which protect the interests of some while ruining the lives of others!

How dare you?!?! Limitations on free speech only apply to speech that doesn't fit the accepted narrative!

/s

G.

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terryin20878's picture

It didn't exactly help that he told a very one-sided story.  Any journalist (hint: many sports reporters are not) worth their salt know this, and tries to interview people on both sides of the dispute.  This guy clearly did not do that.  Nor did it help that his story changed...how many times?  What ever happened to getting your story straight the first time.

Run this by real journalists, and not just the non-journalist sports writers (ESPN, et al), and have them assess his reporting.  I'd guess you'd hear a lot of, "Journalism 101 - epic fail".

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kmp10's picture

If someone's upset that Meyer hired Zach Smith and then enabled Smith's subpar performance with chances ad nauseam, well, I could not agree more, and I said as much on this very site several times in years past only to be told, "You think you know better than Urban Meyer?" If, however, someone is upset the Meyer didn't apologize to Courtney Smith, or that poor Courtney is the forgotten victim in all of this, well, I could not disagree more with that. If the information discovered shows Meyer to have failed with regard to Zach Smith's original hire, and his repeated enabling of Smith's bad performance/behavior, then the information discovered also shows that Courtney Smith is thought to be an emotional liar with an enormous credibility problem who publicly promoted her plan to 'take down' Zach Smith and Urban Meyer. You can't point to the parts of the process and findings that validate your personal opinions and then disregard the information that you don't like... and essentially the entire media dislikes and disregards the 'Courtney Smith greatly exaggerated, or just plain bald-faced lied about the alleged abuse' claims that were made, either implicitly or explicitly, during the vetting process and investigation. In other words, they report what drives their narrative and they bury or disregard what flies in the face of their agenda. 

When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's 

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Dstacify's picture

Zach should never have been hired in the first place and that's really the ONLY thing I fault Urban for in this entire saga. Especially considering that I remember at Urban's introductory press conference as HC back in 2011 he said straight up that one of his main goals was to put together a top-notch coaching staff. He for the most part has done that at OSU (with a few hiccups along the way like Withers and Beck) but a top-notch coaching staff doesn't include a destructive frat boy like ZS, which we now know.

11 Strong.

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Nutinpa's picture

You (and many others) are forgetting that a number of coaches at that time remembered the “old Urban Meyer” and wanted nothing to do with him when he was building his staff late in 2011.  Therefore he picked some guys with Ohio roots or the remaining few he was associated with fromFlorida or elsewhere.   He picked Zach out of loyalty to Earle and to fill out his staff when he needed them.   To insist I otherwise regarding the scenario seven years ago is naive. 

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Dstacify's picture

Dan Mullen was on his staff at Florida and he still has a great relationship with Meyer. Obviously Mullen was moving on to the head coaching realm by the time Urban took the OSU job but there were plenty of WRs Coaches out there to choose from that I'm sure would've worked for Urban. I find it hard to believe that he was THAT disliked when he took the OSU job. He was able to convince Tom Herman to come to OSU to work for him after all right? He didn't need to be as hamstrung by ZS as he was. It would be one thing if ZS was squeaky clean before he came to OSU but he wasn't. He had issues at Florida as well which Meyer knew about. And on top of that Meyer knew very well upon taking this job what Tattoogate and Tressel's responsibility for that had done to this program for most of 2011. I know hindsight is 20/20 but looking back it was a risk he shouldn't have taken because it exposed this program to yet another national scandal. Even the largest programs in the country can only survive so many of those.

11 Strong.

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0H-10's picture

True D, but on the other hand, 'if' Meyer succeeded as a Coach/Leader in taking Earle Bruce's grandson-of-little-talent at BGSU, and coached and mentored him through to a successful recruiting assistant coach career, he comes off as having an even greater multi-generational coaching tree, while honouring one of OSU's great coaches...his own mentor, and that seems kind of important to Urban...until Zach ruined it by being a crappy, immature (at best) person in his personal habits & choices.

o||||||o

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BigBuckFan25's picture

Couldn't agree more. Her own mother didn't even believe her. That's bad. Here's an example of someone lying to the cops.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/06/05/former-college-studen...

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BuckeyeJay's picture

RAMZY: They announced the punishments. Then I read the investigation findings. There's no convenience chart for these things, but three games - in the face of all that detail, the statements where Urban was asking people near him how to delete text messages (!) the repeated awfulness and abdication of job responsibilities by Zach in plain sight...the punishment feels light. Half a season would have been my starting point. 

Bang on Ramzy. When you look at the totality of everything, this punishment was light. 

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BucksHave7's picture

Urban told his boss.   

BucksHave7

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allinosu's picture

Not only that but the people they are supposed to inform told them.

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BuckeyeJay's picture

Anyone who says this obviously hasn't read the report to know that this isn't even the issue that caused punishment for Urban. 

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allinosu's picture

A lot was pulled from his new contract that wasn't present during this.

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BuckeyeJay's picture

*SIGH*

No, there wasn't. He wasn't punished for the reporting stuff, he was punished because

Meyer and Smith failed to take sufficient management action relating to Zach Smith’s misconduct and retained an assistant coach who was not performing as an appropriate role model for OSU student-athletes.

The DV investiation is literally 1 tiny portion of their horrible failure as managers. 

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bd2999's picture

True, but the things are being mixed. They are highly related for sure, but I can see the frustration with some of it. As many are still saying that he was punished for the DV stuff, which is not really the case.

That said, they acted very poorly in the past with ZS. He should have been fired years ago for this stuff.

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SilverHaven's picture

And "things are being mixed," Bd2999, because the stated reasons in the report for suspending are broad nebulous terms:

"sufficient management action" what management actions? and how much is sufficient?
"misconduct" what constitutes misconduct?
"performing as an appropriate role model" what performance? what's appropriate? And what role?

So did the report really conclude specifically why Urban was suspended?

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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BucknutinNC's picture

That may be true BuckeyeJay, but not according to the media! Look, after reading the report I dont think anyone would argue against the fact Zack should have been terminated years ago. Also, yes Urban messed up in the fact he gave to many second chances to a guy who lets be honest wasnt worth the second chances because of who his Grandfather was. However we are looking at this from hindsight, not in the moment. We are seeing the accumulation of years of evidence all at once. These things didn't happen all at once, so while in the face of everything at one time in a report we see it and we're like holy crap! What was Urban thinking keeping this guy! In actuality though, these things happened with large amounts of time between incidents. If you think of it that way, you can see how Zack could have built up confidence with other things in between his missteps. Also keep in mind, many of Zacks screw ups Urban never knew because Zack hid things, many of the revelations about Zack in this report Urban was completely unaware of just as we were.

The media doesn't want to take any of that into account and neither does the social justice mob who are calling for his head! Also the media is reporting that Urban enabled a "KNOWN ABUSER" and created a culture where Domestic Violence was tolerated! And they are screaming it from the rooftops to all of America. That is COMPLETELY FALSE! First, Zack is still not Known to be an Abuser! He has not been arrested or charged for Domestic Violence or abuse of any kind! But the media, and these people who keep saying this is Domestic Violence issue dont want to say that. They say Urban missed the opportunity to discuss DV and apologize to the victim. He should have said something to Courtney because she's the victim! I would ask, what exactly is she the victim of? The media sure doesn't want to talk about that side of the story. They dont want to look into it and get the reports from the police that she serial accuser of abuse, of which the police have never found any evidence whatsoever to justify an arrest or a charge. In fact they have determined the opposite, that she is an emotional accuser! You wont hear the media say that though. Courtney Smith isn't a story, bringing down Urban Meyer on the other hand, that's a story.

According to the media, and the outcry of the social justice mob that are attacking Urbans character and saying he should be fired. That are calling him a liar and a horrible person. DOMESTIC VIOLENCE is the ENTIRE POINT of why Urban has failed according to them! According to them, Courtney is the "Poor Victim" Urban failed to help, and failed to acknowledge and apologize to. According to the his failure is that he enabled a Known Abuser and he doesn't understand how he failed. According to them he failed to show the sufficient amount of remorse for "victim" of Domestic Violence! The enire narrative is about Domestic Violence, and how Urban is a liar, a fraud and a horrible person!

This is ABSURD!!! If as you say DV was just tiny portion of what the issue as you say then there is literally no way Urban or Gene for that matter would have been suspended! Everything Zack did while at OSU outside of the Domestic Violence accusations are embarrassing, perverted, and irresponsible yes. And warrant Zack being terminated, but there is no way any of those things would hit the National Radar if not for the DV allegations. And they absolutely wouldn't lead to a witch hunt looking for Meyer to be terminated or suspended. If those things were that terrible then the media wouldn't be pushing the Bullshit Narrative about "Domestic Violence at OSU and Meyer knew and Did Nothing".

Make no mistake, he wasn't punished for the "not reporting stuff" because clearly he wasn't guilty of not reporting. If he had been guilty of not reporting something he would have been fired!
And he wasn't punished for failing at sufficiently managing Zack's misconduct as an assistant who wasn't a good role model either. Although yes he did screw up by not showing up to recruiting events and was late to practices which Urban found out about and could have taken action for. Those type of things alone don't warrant suspending Meyer though.

The REAL REASON that Urban and Gene got suspended is because the Narrative about Domestic Violence and how Urban and the University failed to act for the Victim! The reason Urban and Gene were suspended was to appease the media and the mob who are pushing the outrage and fake concerns for Courtney Smith! And I say fake concerns because I'm positive that they know as well as we do that Courtney is less than credible in her claims. What matters to them though is the click bait story that Urban lied and failed to act!

That's why there were suspensions, because Drake and the BOT wanted to appease the media and the mob and "LOOK" to be doing the right thing. They did what theybthought would look good and stop the narrative that the University failed a victim and is a place where DV is tolerated. They did it for the PC points and to try and have the perception of doing the right thing.

That is why and how they failed also! They should have just stuck to the facts and determined whether Urban did what he was required to do in reporting the allegations according to the protocols and procedures in place. Then they should have stood up and defended the facts of their findings, and reinstated him. All the other crap that got piled into that report had nothing to do with the issue, which nobody wants to acknowledge. The only issue was the allegations and did Urban report them and act according to protocol. And did Urban lie to the media at BIG media day. Which even the investigative committee determined he did not lie, he was answering the questions with the assumption that the questions were referring to the arrest and charges in the report from the day before.

If you can't step back and see that the narrative had everything to do with how they decided to hand down punishments then you are either naive or you aren't looking at the entire situation with complete perspective.

A.E. Porter

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BuckeyeJay's picture

The REAL REASON that Urban and Gene got suspended is because the Narrative about Domestic Violence and how Urban and the University failed to act for the Victim! The reason Urban and Gene were suspended was to appease the media and the mob who are pushing the outrage and fake concerns for Courtney Smith! And I say fake concerns because I'm positive that they know as well as we do that Courtney is less than credible in her claims. What matters to them though is the click bait story that Urban lied and failed to act!

I 10000000% disagree. The reason they were suspended is because they allowed Zach Smith to continue on, while giving him satisfactory performance reviews (even in a year where he literally abandoned his job!). Urban and Gene failed massively as managers by not punishing Zach Smith for multiple fireable offenses that he committed. I mean the turning a blind eye to the job abandonment by both of them following the Strip Club and the DV allegations is just pure failures as managers. 

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BucknutinNC's picture

We can disagree, I have no problem with opposing opinions. And I don't totally disagree with your assessment that there were things that Urban and Gene could have and should have taken action towards Zack much earlier. Im not disagreeing with you that he should have been terminated for those things either. I 100% agree that Zack should have been let go much sooner.

My only disagreement is to the "Why" Urban and Gene actually "Were" suspended. You say they were suspended because of there failure to act on Zacks other missteps much sooner. And I will acquiesce that is what the BOT and Drake "used" to suspend them. 100% agree with you that is what they used as justification for the suspension.

Where I disagree with you is that is the Real Reason! Like I said if this was just about an asst coach going to a strip club, and not showing up to practice on time, or a recruiting event on time Urban wouldn't have gotten suspended. And the National Media wouldnt give a damn about this story! If thats all this was about we would have never gotten to a point where an investigation was needed!

This was and is all about Domestic Violence Allegations! And whether or not Urban acted correctly in dealing with those allegations. And whether Urban lied about what he knew to cover up Domestic Violence! That is the whole reason a firm was hired to investigate and a special working group was assembled and that is what the BOT and Drake were supposed to be determining! This was all supposed to be about...Did Urban know about the allegations, did he report them, and did he lie to cover up Domestic Violence. So if you look at what they were investigating and what they were supposed to be determining and taking action for in the first place just answer thise questions.

Q/A:

1) Did Urban know about DV allegations? / Yes!

2) Did Urban report and act on those allegations in accordance with OSU's protocols? / According to the investigation, Yes! He was informed, his boss was informed ( His boss actually told him) and compliance was informed ( they actually informed Gene and Gene contacted Powell police and back to compliance). Also Gene called Zack back to Ohio and told him to report to Powell police and cooperate with their questions. And Urban told him if it was found he committed DV he was gone. Then they were waiting on the investigators at Powell PD to do their jobs. He was never arrested or Charged!

3) Did Urban lie to cover up DV? / NO!! The investigation showed he never lied for Zack to cover up any abuse. ALSO, they determined he didn't lie to the media about his knowledge of the allegations either. It was determined by the investigators that clearly he answered the questions by the media thinking they were asking about the report that stated that Zack had been arrested and charged with DV in 2015. That his answers weren't completely clear on that and that led to confusion especially after McMurphy's report was changed and he accused Urban of lying....to much mor to type on all that!

So if you look at what the investigation was actually supposed to investigate and determine. Urban didn't do anything to be suspended for. Clearly in those circumstances Urban wasn't guilty of wrong doing. So.... that begs the question.... "WHY" .... why was Urban suspended then?

Well, thats pretty simple! The school and State spent 500,000 dollars on an investigation! If thats not bad ebough the media and social justice mob had there narrative being pushed nationally! The University's name was being tarnished, the narrative said Urban knew about DV and they were sayiny that the University and Urban failed the Victim! With the PERCEPTION being that Zack is Guilty of DV because of the media and the mob and the Narrative that Urban knew and that the School had a culture where Domestic Violence was tolerated. In the minds of Drake and I'm sure a good portion of the BOT they had to do something to appease the media and the mob and stop the embarrassing Narrative. The Narrative was and is that DV happened and Urban did nothing so they found what they could to warrant something being done.

That is why all the other information about Zack is even mentioned in the report, much of the really Yucky stuff Urban wasnt even aware of. But he was aware about Zack and the Strip Club, he was aware that he didn't show up to a recruiting event. So they "USED" those things to justify a suspension for not properly managing an assistant who had failed to meet standards. Is that what the investigation was started to determine? NO! It is what they used to suspend them though.

However the REASON that they started the investigation was about the DV allegations and the accusations that Urban lied to cover it up! They failed to prove that! The REASON they suspended him and Gene after the investigation had nothing to do with DV or lying. So clearly! The REAL REASON Urban and Gene got suspended was about the narrative in the Media and wanting to stop the bleeding. They failed at that by the way also!

A.E. Porter

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BuckeyeJay's picture

However the REASON that they started the investigation was about the DV allegations and the accusations that Urban lied to cover it up! They failed to prove that! The REASON they suspended him and Gene after the investigation had nothing to do with DV or lying. So clearly! The REAL REASON Urban and Gene got suspended was about the narrative in the Media and wanting to stop the bleeding. They failed at that by the way also!

I just feel like this is a lot of mental gymnastics. It's extremely easy to say that Zach and Gene knew about stuff that Zach was doing that was bad enough to be terminated for each individual thing. While the original intent of the investigation was to determine the DV stuff, uncovering those other things does not make them off limits. It comes down to everyone looking at the report and going "Holy crap, you basically let this guy get away with the most fireable offense there is (job abandonment) with nothing more then a warning, this is really bad".  What happens is though, people are so focused on the DV stuff that they are refusing to look at the actual issues that came out of this and realize that "damn, not only should ZS have been fired multiple times over, but 99% of managers would be fired for the way Urban handled it all those years." 

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BucknutinNC's picture

While I dont want to go back and look at each individual thing listed in that report again, or read that whole thing again lets look at some of the highlights that I can remember off the top of my head. Then lets ask should Urban have been suspended because these things happened and he didn't act against Zack?

2013 Zack's OVI - It was determined that no one at OSU much less Urban knew about this as Zack covered it up. So is this a fireable offense for Zack? Hell Yes! Is this something Urban should be punished for? Opinions may very, mine, NO! Urban shouldn't be disciplined for something he didn't know about.

2014 Strip Club trip! Is this a fireable offense for Zack and possibly Tom Herman also (LOL)? While you may not morally think going to a strip club is ok, it simply isn't a fireable offense on it's own merit. Now since there were HS coach's with them, disciplinary action could have been warranted but I still dont think it was worth firing Zack or Tom. Should Urban be disciplined over not taking action for this? Let's just put it this way, if CEO' fired every employee that took cliets out to a strip club for a good time there would be a lot of unemployment out there. And if every CEO who didn't fire oeople for these types of things were let go or suspended well damn thats a lot of firing happening. Simply put, it was a trip to the strip club and Urban told him no more of that will be tolerated. No Urban shouldn't be disciplined for this either.

Zack not showing up to practice on time occasionally. Should Zack have been fired for this? Fired no, not immediately, disciplined yes! If it continues after discussions and discipline? Yes fire him! I think this is pretty standard for this kind of infraction no matter what type of career field you are in. Should Meyer be disciplined for these instances? No, he addressed them as he saw fit at the time, so as long as Zack fixed this behavior no further action was required then, so why now?

Zack not showing up to a recruiting event and falsely reporting he had been there. Zack could have and absolutely in my mind probably should have been let go for this! Should Urban be disciplined for this? No not really, it was a judgement call at the time. Could he have fired him sure, was it absolutely necessary is the question? Not necessarily we don't know why or what reason Zack gave at the time. So really this was a judgement call, and Urban addressed it the way he determined to be appropriate at the time. Again as long as Zack straightened up no real need for permanent action. Although this along with showing late for events and practices should have started to show a pattern to Urban here. So one could argue Zack should have been on the short leash.

2015 Domestic Violence allegations!!! Ok here's the big one! Should Zack have been terminated? Well no, you shouldn't be fired for mere allegations, and since nothing ever came from the allegations no he shouldn't have been fired. Should Urban be disciplined? No! We already talked about how the investigation shows he did what he was supposed to do in this situation.

Credit Cards being declined and financial stuff. Well in my personal opinion this is just petty shit and shouldn't have even been in the report. It really serves no purpose other than to make Zack look bad as it wasnt anything thats really any business of the investigation or private citizens. And theybreally didnt need this to make him look bad. LOL, its laughable to think this should fall on Meyer!

Zack Smith having sexual relations in the WHAC! And having sex toys delivered to his office in the WHAC! Could Zack have been fired for this? Absolutely! HAD HE BEEN CAUGHT! But as stated in the report neither Gene or Urban were aware of these issues! So that brings us to Urban, how do you discipline him for something he didn't act on when he wasnt aware of it?

In 2016, Zack and rehab stuff. Should Zack have been let go? Probably yes! Employers do sometimes let people go for substance abuse if it affects their work or takes place at work. We dont know the answer to those questions though. Also employers sometimes help employees who admit to having an issue. I still say this is where I think Zack should have been terminated! Should Urban be disciplined for not terminating him here? Really thats a matter of opinion as well, I say maybe. He counseled Zack and got him to go to rehab. This is admirable on one hand, bit where Urban messed up here is he didn't notify Gene Smith. That is why I say possibly Urban could deserve discipline for this. Should he be fired for it? No, suspended probably so, how long debatable.

2017 Zack issued tresspass warning. Zack could have been fired for what allegedly occurred in that instance. But his guilt was never confirmed and also Zack didn't informed anyone. So should Urban be disciplined for this instance? No! He never knew so he couldn't possibly have taken action.

Then we come to 2018, the Criminal Trespass, the protection order etc! ZACK WAS FIRED! Finally! Obviously Urban and Gene acted accordingly!

BIG Media Day! Did Urban lie? Did he try to cover up DV? Should he be disciplined or fired for this? NO! NO! AND NO!

So going back over all this there is really only one instance where its clear, and I mean really clear that Urban probably didn't take action to terminate when he should have in my opinion and thats the drug addiction and rehab instance. Zack showing uo late to practices and not going to an event, if people got fired for showing up late or not being at an event every time a whole crap load of people would get fired. And if youbfired or suspended a boss every time that happened? Well I think you see my point. As far as the stuff Urban knew about and should most definitely shoulve been acted upon I think its the drug addiction and I will conceded that while not making the recruiting event isnt fireable the lying about being there was!

So really the question is how much punishment should Urban be subject to for not taking more action on the drug addiction issue and the lying about being at a recruiting event? That's a matter of opinion really, I personally think the 3 weeks he was on leave was long enough! Maybe a fine to go with it but definitely not another week and 3 games. To me that's overkill for what we're talking about. That's why I say the real reason he got the 3 games and loss of pay was to appease the media!

So no mental gymnastics here. Just looking at the facts! And if you carefully look at just these facts I for one find it difficult to say that the suspension he received is justifiable to what he knew about and could have acted upon. To me its excessive! Only when you tie in the DV angle and the media and the mobs angst can you start to see why he was suspended really.

If all there was to this story was the other stuff outsied of the Domestic Violence story that the media is pushing do you really think that the media would give this much of a damn about Urban not acting on the stuff he did know? Com'on Man! Common sense will telk you they absolutely wouldn't give a shit about not showing up to practice on time or blowing off a recruiting event. They may question the drug addiction situation but they damn sure wouldn't be calling for Urban's job! Now the sex stuff and the OVI the y might would make a stink about but Urban didn't know because Zack hid that stuff, so literally the buck stops with him there. As stated in the beginning, the only thing that has made this news worthy as far as Urban is concerned is Domestic Violence! AND THE NARRATIVE MANUFACTURED BY THE MEDIA! Which is Zack Smith is a Known Abuser and Urban Meyer covered it up! Which is complete bullshit!

A.E. Porter

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Kudos to you for typing that mini-novel, but surely by Chapter 15 you realized that this is a lot of shit for one mediocre WR coach to be doing and still keeping his job, right?

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BucknutinNC's picture

You must not have read said mini novel, nowhere did I defend Zack Smith and say he should have kept his job! As a matter of fact I state the opposite quite a few times. The debate/discussion I was having with BuckeyeJay was about 'WHY" Urban and Gene got suspended. And the difference between what they "USED" as a reason to suspend them and the actual REASON for it.

If you are going to comment at least read the discussion so you know what its about!

A.E. Porter

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

I did read your post and will admit the "mini-novel" comment was snarky. My bad.

In your summary, though, you compartmentalize each ZS transgression without looking at the big picture of an employee who was really, really out of control. Remember that 2009 should be in Urban's mind through all of these instances; not as a damning, definitive picture of ZS, but at least as an instance that should have guided him towards keeping a very watchful eye on him. Instead, it was allowance after allowance. This is one of the reasons they were suspended. 

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BucknutinNC's picture

The post you are talking about where I compartmentalize the events is the 3rd post I made in a long discussion where BuckeyeJay and I were debating on the "Why" they were suspended. In other words the difference between what they "used" to justify a suspension as apposed to the "real reason" they suspended them. If you go further up you will see that it was a much more in depth discusion than just that last response where I broke down each of Zack's transactions. The conversation looked at the entire scope of this ordeal. You will have to scroll up to find all the posts which start with BuckeyeJay.

A.E. Porter

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SilverHaven's picture

BAM! Wow. Your 1st of 2 posts is very well put, BuckNutNC.  The real reason for the investigation was all about the embarrassing news media storm over DV-- if Urban lied about it and if he covered it up.  He did not. The nebulous stated reasons for suspension are a rationale to show the media that the university is taking action.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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johngobuck's picture

To be honest the mismanagement issues of Zach are an entirely separate thing versus his relationship issues with Courtney.   I believe the investigation went into all these other things so that they could "Fire" Urban for cause if they had wanted to.   This means Urban can't simply walk away because that would mean losing his contract money but also making it very hard to get a job elsewhere.    Basically to force Urban to read the statements and take the blame. 

But the truth all these red flags that could have got Zach fired have nothing to do with abuse allegations.  I wish the investigations had simply focused on those issues. 

I also think what the roundtable discussion was total trash.  One man can only do so much in a day.  Title IX, Human resources, the police department, and lots of people knew about the allegations.  At the time everyone did the best they could that is what I think.  And if the response to that is that they should have done more than it simply means you believe the DV accusations are true.  So if you believe they are true then perhaps YOU should do something about it. 

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AdvancedBuckeye's picture

Its only been a couple days, but I finally get to say...I regret that I have but one UV to give.

Great synopsis Bucknut.

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TheBB's picture

I'd give bucknut an upvote but I don't know how.

John M Digity

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Chicago Connection's picture

PERFECT assessment, BucknutinNC. People will be smarter for closely reading your thorough and thoughtful explanation.

Meanwhile, sadly, I have to say, people will be dumber for having read the intellectually empty, posturing "Hindsight Roundtable," whose participants have closed their ears to the totality of the situation (in favor of their shallow, feel-good narrative with it's pretensions of being reflective and thoughtful) just like the national media.

I guess "hindsight" isn't helpful when you still have blinders on.

Unfortunately, when it comes to earnestly examining the WHOLE of any situation, far too many people prefer to cover their ears. I guess that either their psyches or attention spans can't handle

Anyway, thanks for being an island of rational reflection in a sea of insanity.

chicagobuckeye

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BucknutinNC's picture

Thanks CC I appreciate it! LOL, after a good debate I am getting some downvotes on my last comment which comes with the territory I guess. It is funny though because that is the one where I point out the facts of the investigation and debate where do you hold Urban accountable in those things. I think I am pretty objective in my assessment and opinion. I definitely wasn't unfair! LOL to each their own I guess!

A.E. Porter

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Chicago Connection's picture

I'd take those down votes as a high compliment, Bucknut. In other words, it looks to me like you've gotten up votes across the board.

After all, the participants in this one-eyed group think not only failed to offer a single value-added thought on this topic, they also conveniently disallow down votes from the public that they serve, which is rather curious, if not hypocritical, since they're basically claiming that Urban Meyer has been tone deaf, if not hypocritical, and has lacked transparency relative to the public that he serves.

That claim isn't totally false by any means, but it's also far afield from the whole truth, which you so effectively laid out. But then, these people don't seem inclined to subject themselves the whole truth any more than down votes. My God, imagine how the rest of us might fare, including Meyer, if we could prevent the whole of reality from bearing down upon us and/or "down voting" our behavior with real-world consequences? 

Too bad the subscribers here couldn't skip the self-indulgent, self-congratulating, non-thinking conformity on parade in this "Roundtable of Self-Righteousness" and go straight to your explanation.

As for the Roundtable participants themselves, I can only hope that they follow your lead and widen the lens of their perception beyond any given bias. I might add, it wouldn't hurt Urban Meyer, Gene Smith, Courtney Smith, President Drake and a goodly portion of the national media to do the same.

chicagobuckeye

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allinosu's picture

*SIGH  They were holding him to the standards from it along with some wording. 

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Brah Zhole's picture

Truth is, there is no context to text messages.  And the existence of them could have made what Urban did/didn't do seem much worse.  Someone can be texting you, and can flippantly respond to them without really even really considering a situation.  Like Shelley could be like, "Courtney said Zach hit her again...we need to do something..." 

And he could write, "Did she call the police?"  

Shelley, "I don't know..."

That would show he knew something happened, but if he never heard more about it, he could assume it was much to do about nothing; part of the on-going drama of their marriage.  But yet, one could say he KNEW something.  What if he received that message the day he found out a player was hurt, suspended, or did something far worse?  What if he didn't really pay too much mind to that text because the Courtney/Zach thing was just constantly filled with drama, and he ALREADY notified the proper chain of command?  What if he knew the police showed up to her house time and time again, but no charges were filed?  

So yeah, there's thi GLARING text message, but out of context you can't really put correct weight on it.  It's completely different from an ACTUAL conversation.

Not saying deleting texts is right/wrong, but it's clear to me when you're dealing with a witch hunt, there wouldn't be ANY perspective regarding text messages. 

gabbagool

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2morrow's picture

I would consider Urban a moron if he didn't delete text messages now. The media and the pc police are nothing but a bunch of spineless people trying to take down anyone who is more successful than they are - which is most people.

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southbuc's picture

If we find out in the custody case that Courtney was a compulsive liar alcoholic and known to be violent herself will you still feel the same way?

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TheBadOwl's picture

Yes, because the investigation was about the athletic department's handling of a domestic violence accusation – not whether or not those accusations were valid – if they erred in handling it as they did, and if Urban showed proper judgment in the way he handled Zach Smith's employment. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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southbuc's picture

He clearly did not handle Zach Smith’s employment correctly and zach should have been gone a long time ago both for his lack of coaching ability and his off the field antics. However I don’t see how you can say he didn’t handle the 2015 accusations correctly when they were reported?   That’s his responsibility and he did it.  If this was about how he handled the accusations there should be no punishment. This was about him doing a poor job of handling Zach as a whole.  For that I think he got what he deserved

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BuckeyeJay's picture

Yes, because that isn't the biggest issue. Not at all. 

The strip club not being reported to Compliance (HS coaches were there, so potential NCAA violations)

Zach not even doing his job but getting a satisfactory review in 15-16 

Sending Zach to Rehab, him leaving a 10 day program after 3 days, Urban not telling Gene, and Zach getting a good review and a 32% raise. 

Urban trying to delete all his older texts at McMurphy's report. 

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southbuc's picture

I have zero problem with deleting text to keep them from the media. I would have done the same thing. Their is stuff I’ve texted on unrelated items I wouldn’t want to come into the public eye.  

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BuckeyeJay's picture

You probably are not subject to public record retention requirements. 

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steve1's picture

Are Urban's personal text messages (for instance, between he and his wife) subject to "public record retention requirements"? What if he deletes an OSU email? Is he in violation of his "public record retention requirements"? Urban has every reason to have an expectation of privacy in his personal text messages, unless his device has been issued by the University. If his device is like the rest of us, and is a personal device on which he conducts some work-related functions (email, text, etc.) - even if he is reimbursed for the costs of use of the phone - , I think there are significant privacy concerns involved. Could you imagine the potential damage that could occur if Urban's (or any coach's text messages) were subject open public record review? Any personal comment he made with the reasonable expectation of privacy about another coach (either at OSU or another institution), a recruit or a recruit's family member, his boss, etc. could be reviewed. Heck, any public employee (read OSU employee) could then be subject to such review.   

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aj99's picture

Yeah the second time Zach pulls a no show at a school he should've been fired, regardless if he's perfect in every other area.  You can't no show.  Late for practice.  Skipping out on rehab. 

The way the 2009 incident was handled led to all of this.

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bbb's picture

BuckeyeJay, the 11W football mob is coming for you for having an adult opinion

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SilverHaven's picture

Bang on Ramzy?  Do what?  LOL.
 

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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0H-10's picture

Completely disagree, Jay but cannot understand the reasoning behind 23 downvotes. I thought we were better than downvoting someone's opinion...+1 just because it's your right to have an opinion that differs from mine...-23 looks like a mob mentality.

o||||||o

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BucksHave7's picture

The media seeks the truth

?

BucksHave7

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TheBadOwl's picture

How much would you know about literally anything outside of your job, your friends and your family without the media? Your only point of reference would be PR teams without any oversight or consequences for lying. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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BucksHave7's picture

As long as you believe Brett McMurphy was only seeking the truth, were good. 

BucksHave7

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TheBadOwl's picture

There are good journalists and there are bad journalists – that doesn't invalidate the entire profession or the value of its overall existence. 

Similarly, a bad auto manufacturer doesn't negate the value or usefulness of cars in general. 

The roundtable you're responding to goes into extensive detail about the failings of multiple media outlets and members had in reporting this issue over the last few weeks. Again, there are good and bad media members – and the actions of the bad ones tend to absolutely enrage the good ones. 

Want to stop the impact of bad journalists like McMurphy? Become a savvy media consumer. Understand the red flags of good and bad journalism, learn what quality reporting looks like and evaluate stories on their facts and reporting methods rather than on what tells the story you want to hear. 

McMurphy (and Snook) engaging in one-sided reporting, shadow editing and a lower burden of proof due to a lack of editorial oversight is undeniably shitty and embarrassing for the journalism industry. They're the bad apples – there are still a hell of a lot of good apples (and, fuck it, totally adequate apples) in that barrel, and those are the ones you should care about, as they're the ones providing a necessary service and undeniable value to society. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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BucksHave7's picture

Agreed. Just responding to what was posted in the article. 

BucksHave7

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TheBadOwl's picture

The roundtable uniformly slams McMurphy and talks about how his reporting embarrassed an industry whose overarching mission is (or should be) to find and promote the truth. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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terryin20878's picture

"There are good journalists and there are bad journalists – that doesn't invalidate the entire profession or the value of its overall existence. "

I think the point is, again, there are journalists, and there are sports reporters.  Many a sports reporter fails basic journalism on a daily basis,  Why is "first reported by" more important than getting the story correct?  Why would someone publish a scathing expose' after only interviewing only one person, with no attempt to get information from other sides?

Real journalists feel, and respect, a responsibility to report the unfiltered truth.  Others, well, sometimes they just want to be the next Woodward/Bernstein, truth be damned.

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TheBadOwl's picture

Why is "first reported by" more important than getting the story correct?  

First ,because many national stories (outside of sports, particularly) are typically reported by local news crews and reporters and picked up on a national level – so it's a good nod to the work done by those journalists.

Secondly, it prevents giant corporate outlets like ESPN from simply piggybacking off of the work done by hardworking journalists and passing it off as their own. 

Third, it both credits and holds accountable the journalist who built the story on their research, interviews and writing. 

Real journalists feel, and respect, a responsibility to report the unfiltered truth.  Others, well, sometimes they just want to be the next Woodward/Bernstein, truth be damned.

Isn't that exactly what Woodward and Bernstein did? Or are you saying that some sling salacious claims in an attempt to promote a scandal without doing the legwork that Woodward and Bernstein did during Watergate? 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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buckzilla1's picture

That would have sent a message, and probably changed not just Ohio State but other powerful institutions. That kind of precedent would have had societal impact. Instead we're talking about slapping a multi-millionaire's wrist for engaging in nepotism and toxic favoritism.

This statement by a well thought of journalist is the problem. It is an opinion given as fact with little regard for impact. Such as "I have known for a while" . Sending a message because you think they should in hopes it will absolve, is a kin to the lunacy of setting yourself on fire for the greater good of man. Everyone has an opinion. Sticking to facts is hard, just as is saying I'm wrong. 

Hey Cancer! This ass kicking is brought to you by the Guernsey county mafia. Give it Hell 84!

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TheBadOwl's picture

 It is an opinion given as fact with little regard for impact. 

The statement to which you're referring came from Ramzy, who is not a reporter, and is only a journalist in the sense that his opinion pieces are often published on this site. Moreover, this particular piece is a multi-person column. There's a difference between reporters, columnists and analysts. 

Either way, journalists are allowed to have opinions – ethical ones don't allow those opinions to impact their reporting or influence how they report the news. Ramzy's not reporting the news here, he's reacting to it and attempting to give perspective– that's what a good columnist does. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

If you'd like to read how a journalist covered the investigation and press conference, yesterday the paper of record had a very factual article lacking commentary.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/sports/urban-meyer-zach-smith-ohio-st...

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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SilverHaven's picture

Ah, the "old gray lady,"  She was something back in the day.  She won't let me access the article today.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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BucknutinNC's picture

Youbare right BadOwl, there are good and bad Journalists.while becoming a savvy reader will help you to navigate between good Journalism and hack reporting it wont do anything to affect the impact of bad Journalists! This situation and McMurphy are perfect examples of that. He put his report out there and it was filled with falsehoods and the National media latched onto it like a ticks to a dog and started looking for blood! After Meyer's less than elegant response about allegations in 2015 in which he thought they were specifically referring to the report from the day before. McMurphy changed his report and went after Meyer as a liar! The major Majority of the media were all to willing to jump on dig in and go along for the ride looking for blood the whole way. They Created a narrative Nationally that Zack Smith was a Known Abuser and Urban knew about it and did nothing!

I wouldn't call Snook one sided, his reports were in response to McMurphy's one sided and false reports. He was simply doing what McMurphy should have done as a responsible journalist and getting the opposing/conflicting stiry and evidence out there. Snooks report being a response to refute McMurphys claims doesn't hold the responsibility of showing Courtney's side as McMurphy had more than done. Although he did show in his reports that she had alleged abuse and he showed it was investigated by the Powell PD and nothing had been found to justify her claims according to the police. He also showed that not only did Zack and Zacks mother deny her claims, that her own mother supported their denials and that she confirmed the claims Courtney was lying about the abuse and wanted vengeance for Zack's infidelity. Snook wasn't being one sided as you say, he was doing an investigative reporters job and dissecting a completely one sided report that had no credible evidence, just the word of one person, the alleged victim. He found all the information McMurphy should have had he done what a responsible journalist would do.

Almost the entire media has jumped on and are still pushing a false narrative and spewing the venom toward Meyer and OSU. They are basically lying to America with their coverage of this. By saying that Urban knew about Domestic Violence, they are basically saying it happened, and he covered it up. They are being careful on how they use their words but that is the narrative that they are pushing. That Zack is an Abuser and guilty of Domestic Violence and that Urban covered it up by lying! That is complete Bullshit!! First Zack hasn't been arrested, charged or found guilty of anything! Yet that doesn't stop them from calling him an abuser and Courtney a Victim! It hasnt stopped them from calling Urban Meyer a liar, and a horrible person who ignored a victim either. They are completely ignoring any evidence that doesn't support their narrative also!

Tim May, Snook, Jason Whitlock and very few others have tried to stay objective on this. They have all dug invon their narrative because destroying Urban has become the story and the objective to hell with the facts. Becoming a savvy reader wont stop this crap either! This is a systemic problem that has swept the media in general! The media whether it's sports or National News has become opinion based drivel and biased to a certain political view and perspective. It doesn't matter how savvy a reader you are you cant change that. To find a non biased view and report in the news today you have to search high and low on many mediums whether its TV, magazines, radio, internet a good story that is fact based and driven without the writers opinion put into it is almost impossible to find! I wish you luck in your endeavors in doing so, I know I to get frustrated searching for good news!

A.E. Porter

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SilverHaven's picture

The famous Brit news commentator Piers Morgan said that the American media hate America and American institutions.  That's now becoming true of American sports writers who hate American sports.

And the occupation with the lowest credibility?  Journalism!  Every survey is below 20%.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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Buckeye Knight's picture

Not a condemnation of this panel and this post will not be limited to just the ZS case, but honestly, where does a single person, Urban Meyer in this case, get the unlimited time, energy, and resources to put on all of the hats everyone wants him to put on?  How in the world is 1 person expected to put in 80 hours a week preparing for football and babysit hundreds of players and staff and sit down with them all to play psychologist and whatever else they need help with or trying to read their minds?  I hear many current students and former students complaining about tuition and student loans.  Where does OSU get more and more money from to keep adding more and more services, more and more admins, more and more support staff for everyone's causes on campus?

I keep hearing about OSU being "an institution of higher learning" in reference to sports.  However, OSU and many other universities, have grown so far beyond "institutions of higher learning" with all of the services, expectations, and staff to essentially babysit people nowadays.  Yes, it's good to help when you can, but seriously, when did we start demanding and expecting a university or employer to solve every one of our problems in our lives?  Or to play police in the lives of our co-workers and fellow students?  Where do we think the money and resources will continue to come from as we demand more? Where will all of these superhumans that can read minds, tell the future, and find the time and energy to solve everyone else's problems come from?   Again, this isn't focused on the ZS case, as I think Urban should have fired him sooner, just general questions about society's growing expectations.  And when someone can't possibly live up to those ridiculous expectations, what do we do?  Drag them in the mud and/or sue them?

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BucksHave7's picture

[Deleted by staff. No politics]

Do we really think every Professor or Athletic Coach and staff right now at colleges across this country have never been arrested? 

BucksHave7

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Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

where does a single person, Urban Meyer in this case, get the unlimited time, energy, and resources

Well, he works for Ohio State. I'd start there. Could have freed up his own time by tapping colleagues better equipped to handle an allegedly abusive confirmed addict. Urban could have stayed focused on coaching up his shitty coach and delegated the stuff he knows little about to others.

southbuc's picture

What many of us have failed to remember  are the circumstances under which urban was hired at Ohio State. He had had a great deal of trouble at Florida because he was responsible for too many off the field issues which eventually led To stress related health problems and his resignation. Gene Smith promised him that he would take care of all of these things for him upon his hiring.  So maybe it’s possible Gene failed Urban in this case?

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Milk Steak To Go's picture

If Urban would have listened to Gene's advice (let go of smith in 2015/16, what to say at Media Day), OSU wouldn't be in the mess it finds itself in.

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Buckeye Knight's picture

Well, he works for Ohio State. I'd start there. Could have freed up his own time by tapping colleagues better equipped to handle an allegedly abusive confirmed addict. Urban could have stayed focused on coaching up his shitty coach and delegated the stuff he knows little about to others.

 Right, again, even OSU has a budget and limited sources of money, as large as they are.

I agree, I want my football coach to coach football, I want a real psychologist doing psychology, I want the police doing the police work.  It's when we start demanding people do things they shouldn't really be doing that the unreasonable expectations start.  Again, if we start adding more and more support staff, that money still has to also come from someone, somewhere.

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Johnny Ginter's picture

I want my football coach to coach football, I want a real psychologist doing psychology, I want the police doing the police work.

so then let's do that. urban meyer isn't a counselor (although he says that he and shelley provided courtney and zach "counseling") and he isn't an investigator (even though the committee's report says that the meyers likely felt that courtney wasn't credible). he shouldn't have tried to counsel or investigate, he should've reported what he knew to either HR or the title ix office.

Again, if we start adding more and more support staff, that money still has to also come from someone, somewhere.

ohio state has an over 4 billion dollar endowment and the athletic department alone brought in over 180 million dollars last year against 150 million in expenditures. they'll be fine.

Buckeye Knight's picture

The Title IX office informed Gene, who then informed Urban of the 2015 allegations.  The Title IX office already knew and were the first to know.  I'd even go as far to say the Title IX office failed here.  They should have been the experts in proper protocol and demanded Gene and Urban for written statements, if that was really necessary.

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Johnny Ginter's picture

The Title IX office informed Gene, who then informed Urban of the 2015 allegations.  The Title IX office already knew and were the first to know. 

sorry, i should've been more clear; i meant going back to 2012 when nothing turned up when zach was hired and no one at OSU knew about 2009.

BUT

I'd even go as far to say the Title IX office failed here.  They should have been the experts in proper protocol and demanded Gene and Urban for written statements, if that was really necessary.

this is a great point. why this wasn't pursued more in 2015 is a big question. my only guess is that the university was okay putting the onus entirely on urban, which as i've said i think is a huge mistake.

costinjr's picture

Additionally, I keep thinking if this popped up in my place of work, beyond my superior, I would have no idea where to go. Does my boss know? yes. Do the police know? yes. In this case, does Title IX know? yes. I guess the follow-up is with the couple involved? but maybe the husband is covering it up now? is the wife too afraid to say anything more? Okay, now what? Back to the police? Boss? Title IX? It'd be interesting to see the actual procedure OSU has in place for situations like this.

I hope that OSU can put together a competent DV department, and these cases can be handed off to the SMEs because I think most of us are ill-equipped to handle these sort of issues.

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buckeyeupnorth's picture

Even the report points out that OSU's standards are vague regarding what the title IX officer should do in this case. The Title IX officer, along with Gene and Urban all decided to let the accusations drop because the prosecutor had decided there wasn't sufficient evidence to charge Smith.

So what this report is recommending is that colleges fire anyone with an accusation against them for domestic violence, despite the professionals deeming there isn't evidence to support those charges. And there are panelists in this article who agree, apparently because they want to support the notion that dv is way underreported and under prosecuted. Despite most states having laws requiring prosecution regardless of the victim's cooperation.

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Milk Steak To Go's picture

The University Compliance and Integrity Office needed to investigate to see if the university or those under it's care needed protection

It just so happened in this case they didn't (i.e., neither the Sexual Misconduct policy nor Title IX apply), but the appropriate arm of the university never got to make that determination.

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Buckeye Knight's picture

Right.  The Title IX office is under the Office of the University Compliance and Integrity umbrella.  Some different people in 2015 though.

https://compliance.osu.edu/about-us/our-team/

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

For some leaders, problems arise when they take on new duties. For others, it's giving up control of tasks others are better-suited to do, whether it be through having time or training. I think Urban and many others fall into the second category. 

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BucksHave7's picture

Urban told his boss. 

BucksHave7

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Buckeye Knight's picture

No, the boss told Urban.  And the boss was told by the Title IX office.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

The individual to which you are referring (Miechelle Willis) was the Deputy Title IX Coordinator for the Athletics Department.  She actually works for Gene Smith in the Athetic Department, not the larger Title IX office in the Office of University Compliance and Integrity.

So the truth is the information never lest OSU Athletics and was not provided to the university's Title IX office.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Just like any large bureaucracy, there appear to be multiple reporting chains, which often results in confusion and misreporting or lack of reporting.  They could learn from some of our national intelligence mistakes prior to 911.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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BucknutinNC's picture

Navy, I hear what you are saying here about Miechelle Willis being the Deputy Title IX Coordinator attached to the athletic dept. And how it didnt actually leave there. My only question is if her job is to be the Coordinator for the Athletic Department for Title IX compliance wouldn't it be here job to elevate these concerns to the lager body for Title IX in the Office of University Compliance and Integrity?

And if so wouldn't that be her fault it never reached the Universities Title IX office?

A.E. Porter

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aj99's picture

And said boss told Meyer to fire Zach.  Meyer refused.

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Buckeye Knight's picture

No doubt.  As I said, Meyer should have fired ZS sooner.

My post was more general about tempering our expectations and demands.  And how being just an "institution of higher learning" gets thrown at "sports", but is ignored when you consider the enormous amount of other services provided by universities today and where that money comes from to provide them.  Football at places like OSU more than pays for itself.

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CptBuckeye24's picture

Everyone keeps mentioning the contract with the updated domestic abuse reporting clause in his contract. But that was signed just this past year while the Smith allegations were in 2015. I guess it is possible the Athletic Department did not have a policy and reporting mechanism in place for these types of allegations and reports. I kind of get that feeling that Urban (and probably other sports/staff) report this stuff to Gene and let him decide on how to handle it. I get that feeling that was what was happening back in 2015. I could be wrong.

As for the money and staff, OSU will throw whatever resource and money to meet their goals. OSU has deep pockets and in light of this report, the athletic department will start a new initiatives and hire people to make sure it does not happen again. 

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brutus0717's picture

ohio state has an over 4 billion dollar endowment and the athletic department alone brought in over 180 million dollars last year against 150 million in expenditures. they'll be fine.

Then why is my daughter's tuition bill 6 times what mine was less than 30 years ago? 

"We gotta go win this next game and make the State of Ohio proud!"-UFM

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Johnny Ginter's picture

beeeecause we've become increasingly willing as a society to burden young people with massive amounts of debt with the promise of increased wages despite incomes staying stagnant even as production has increased linearly in the past 30 years? who knows!

BucksHave7's picture

Are you saying that any tOSU employee with Direct Reports should openly inform their Peers of any suspected behavior by their employees (outside the office) that may not be up to university standards?

BucksHave7

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allinosu's picture

That goes against the narratives of the reporters that are claiming he should have done more personally. The problem is that some (reporters) have different standards like the one above who feels guilty until proven innocent. As a victim of a women lying to police, that right there gets me hopping mad. Plus according to the report those whose job it is to monitor the situation told them about the incident.

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Dillon G's picture

I'll  go with what I heard on sports radio via my iPhone on this one. He should have been fired like Beck for not being a coach, before 2015.

#walkaway

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HYI3RID's picture

I think you're spot on bro. I think the easy answer is that it's not expected that a head coach or a university should solve the problems in every ones lives. Until something like this happens, and then all the people who have never made a mistake in their life climb to the moral high ground and look for someone to blame. Everyone who is calling for Urban's head and saying tOSU cares more about winning is just virtue signaling. Look at me and how morally superior I am to Urban Meyer and tOSU. It's the day and age we live in where anyone in power or the spotlight can be taken down at a moments notice if the media decides it's your turn to go. Whatever happened to common sense? Decency? The realization nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes? 

Vires Et Honestas

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southbuc's picture

As everyone in the media is parsing apart every single decision urban has ever made, I just keep thinking “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”

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HYI3RID's picture

I feel like somebody famous might have said that. Serious question can you imagine Him being around in today's society with the media?Dude must have known what He was doing.

Vires Et Honestas

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sb97's picture

Its nice to read the transcript of a sane and rational discussion about such an outlandish event. 

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TheBadOwl's picture

Fantastic read, great discussion about the different layers of failure to handle and discuss domestic violence by multiple parties over the last few weeks.

Hoping the comments here will be civil and posted in good faith – this is a great chance for a lot of people here to get a different perspective (particularly coming from women – as so far this discussion has been very male-dominated) – but it seems like a lot of people have had their minds made up from the start. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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NEBuckeye's picture

Excellent read.  This is what I wish more of the national media covering this story would do is take a tough, but fair look at the facts and determine what lessons can be learned that add value to national dialogue and the people and institutions affected by a difficult and not well understood social problem (DV).  You've elevated truth above clicks and continuous improvement above loyalty or rivalry.  Keep up the good work.

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ShawneeBuck74's picture

Solid read. This stands out to me:

Agreed that the report lacked explaining how Urban and Gene acted in good faith and were forthcoming, etc. put this with the fact that they’re cleared of covering up DV. Instead, the report majority highlighted ZS and the salacious details of his substance abuse and sex life, while tawdry, isn’t DV.

You win with people. 

And so forth...

9 Units Strong!

 

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BTBuckeye's picture

I agree on taking the money they would have otherwise paid Urban & Gene and donating it to a worthy cause. 

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southbuc's picture

I’ve been saying for two weeks that Urban needs to make a large donation to a women’s abuse charity. 

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B1Gspeed's picture

Donating to a charity that focuses on the kids of abuse and DV sounds about right. At the end of the day, its still "he said, she said" and it is the Smith kids who are the victims. 

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SilverHaven's picture

Or what if the university takes the money they saved by not paying Urban and donate it to charity?

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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CptBuckeye24's picture

"I don't believe that an academic institution, even one as large as Ohio State, is equipped to determine legal guilt." It is interesting to me that half the people you talk to these days will use this as a defense of Ohio State, and half as an indictment

This statement is exactly the problem in the media, particularly the national media. They see it an indictment and therefore Urban must be fired. 

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mr.green's picture

This was a fantastic exchange. I hope all in the 11W community  read it with an open mind. We need to do better. Ohio State MUST do better. 

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NYWoodyFan's picture

The “binary” divide is that some people seem certain that domestic violence occurred and was soley perpetuated by Zach Smith.

Others seem equally certain that CS was not credible, or even a co-perpetrator in committing violence and aggressions of her own.

Ohio State wisely sidestepped rendering a judgment on this toxic situation. Therefore, Urban Meyer made a bad hire, slow fire, misspoke, and practiced nepotism in a field where nepotism is widely practiced as a rule. Zach Smith embarrassed the university and failed utterly as a representative of this institution. The Buck stops at Meyer’s desk. The suspension is warranted. 

I do not agree, given the murkiness of testimonies, that this is some golden opportunity to provide a teaching opportunity about domestic violence. At best, this is an unusual case. At worst, it was toxic and co-abusive. In any case, none of us have any clear means to make a judgment of what happened, even the investigators. Thus what lessons can we honestly presume to inflict about our students?

Matt

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Johnny Ginter's picture

I do not agree, given the murkiness of testimonies, that this is some golden opportunity to provide a teaching opportunity about domestic violence.

sorry, i think it is. urban meyer obviously wasn't equipped to handle these allegations, but he wanted to keep them close to his vest because (in my opinion) he didn't want the public scrutiny that reporting it to an outside group like HR or title ix would've brought on the program.

imo it's pretty obvious that he just wanted zach to go away without having to make his misdeeds public, but that's the teaching opportunity; whether zach was abusive or not, you can't turn your head away from this stuff. DV allegations are serious, and there are organizations that are far better equipped than urban meyer to look into them. he should've used the resources available.

BuckeyeJay's picture

What's baffling though is that some of the things that Zach Smith did that are verifiable, have gotten better coaches fired. I just don't get it. 

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kmp10's picture

Smith is Earle Bruce's grandson, as has been mentioned on here seemingly a billion times, and Meyer was so far up Bruce's ass, to put it bluntly, that Zach Smith could have done blow off a pole dancer's donk on the 50 yard line in Ohio Stadium and Urban would have said, "If you do coke of one more hooker's moneymaker, Zach, you're fired." Meyer screwed up, absolutely, but he's being hammered by a media that is only telling half the story... as per normal. The part of the story where Courtney Smith fabricates or exaggerates claims of abuse, as alleged by Powell PD and her family, has been ignored in totality for the duration of the proceedings. Meyer acted irresponsibly specific to Zach Smith and his never ending chances to make good... but he's being painted as a guy who knowingly enabled, supported, and harbored a man who, after doing all kinds of inappropriate things during the day, regularly went home at nite and beat his wife just for fun, and that is entirely unfair and completely wrong. Meyer had a soft spot for Smith, which has been crystal clear to many of us on here for years, and his mismanagement of Smith is reason enough for a reprimand and maybe a small penalty of some kind. But because of Courtney's accusations, despite three parties saying she lied, the media is insisting that Meyer may as well have punched Courtney in her face himself, and saying that he's a sorry excuse for a human being and should be a pariah throughout college football. This is irresponsible, misleading, unprofessional work... and that's what we've all come to expect from the biased, agenda-driven American press.

When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Buckeye Jay, this may have been posted elsewhere on the boards or even in these comments, but it's worth a read in an attempt to possibly answer that question.  The article is from May 1, 2018.

https://www.seccountry.com/florida/urban-meyer-avery-atkins-death-florid...

(Avery) Atkins was a freshman on Florida’s 2005 team, and he was projected to be a starter in 2006, when the Gators won the national title. However, the player was released from his scholarship in June 2006 because of a domestic battery charge.

In July 2007, Atkins died of an apparent Ecstasy overdose in Port Orange, Fla. He was 20. Shortly before his death, he was arrested on charges of purchasing crack cocaine.

“Could’ve been a first-rounder,” Meyer told Feldman of Atkins. “Pushes a girl. I kick him off the team. The streets take him over in Daytona.

“I lived with that for three or four years thinking, ‘Wait a minute, we lost this kid on our watch.’ That’s when we started giving kids second, third and fourth chances. I would not get rid of a kid, and it bit us a little bit.

“I went 20 years in my career and never really had stuff like that. I was convinced at the time that if he’d have stayed in our program, we would’ve gotten him right, and how do you ever let that happen on your watch?”

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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BucknutinNC's picture

Navy that is some great insight as to why Urban may have gave Zack to many chances, especially after the drug addiction problem specifically!! WOW! I had never heard that story, gives one a greater understanding of Urban's mindset and possible thoughts and concerns he may have had during this entire situation. I can guarantee with almost complete certainty you wont hear anyone in the National Media make this point or bring this story to light! I wonder if anyone in the roundtables discussion was aware of this? I wonder if they had been it may have changed their perspective on what Urban was worried about? They seem to think it was all just nepotism and and protecting his own image. Just goes to show you that the old saying "Until you've walked in another man's shoes and seen life through his eyes, don't attempt to understand why he does what he does" really does hold meaning. It may do many people who judge without full knowledge of things a lot of good to remember that!

A.E. Porter

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SilverHaven's picture

Mahalo, Navy, that's a powerful, emotional glimpse of what drives Urban inside.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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CptBuckeye24's picture

Urban is definitely one for keeping things in house and it seems like Urban thought his words/actions at media days would allow the situation to just go away. But allowing him to keep everything internal. I've always felt Urban is not one to answer the tough questions and just says the right things to get the presser over with. As if the pressers are not worth his time and are an inconvenience. I get that and the article written about coach speak a few weeks ago is a perfect example of that.

The term "cover-up" is not the correct term since it implies actions to conceal an event that actually took place. He was aware and it was acknowledged and addressed by himself and Smith. Unfortunately, the national media and the detractors keep pushing this slant. 

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SilverState's picture

The term "cover-up" is not the correct term since it implies actions to conceal an event that actually took place. He was aware and it was acknowledged and addressed by himself and Smith. Unfortunately, the national media and the detractors keep pushing this slant. 

^^^ 

"There's still some green showing before you see the chalk."

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osuguy2008's picture

I don't think you can say anything is obvious

If it's true that the compliance offer (who also dubbed as the Title X officer which doesn't necessarily mean any thing since it seems Title X didn't apply to this situation) was the first to find out about October 2015 via the OSU Police via the Powell Police Dept then doesn't it stand to reason that the departments above her ( the compliance/Title X officer) and there were "others" (quote from the committee report) then all the higher ups knew about it because they were the ones that told Gene who told Urban. Should they ( Gene and Urban) filled out the redundant paper work to the very people who informed them? I mean , I guess but isn't it reasonable that they felt they didn't need to because the appropriate people already knew? And if you can't say that's *plausible* then I don't think you're being entirely honest

I also don't see where he was turning his head away when Courtney didn't let any one know about instances of physical abuse until 2015 and by all accounts the only one that reached the edges of Urban's radar is the Oct 2015 incident and via this first paragraph he heard it through a channel that originated from the offices he'd have to report to. 

When you say he wasn't equipped to handle these allegations, I agree no coach is in a position to handle allegations which is why they're required to go to the appropriate offices, but in this case he heard it from the appropriate offices themselves (through Gene). If you can prove to me that Urban knew days before Gene informed him then I can entertain your argument but I think it's obvious it doesn't fit that nicely in this situation

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BucknutinNC's picture

Hey Mr Ginter, not that your take is horribly misguided or completely wrong, as I agree with much of what has been said in the post and in the discussions going on in the comments. I do have a hard time with some things being said.

As far as the DV allegations where you say he wanted to keep things close to the vest and he wasn't properly equipped...I disagree that Urban tried to hide those allegations and saying he did is wrong. He was informed by his Boss who was informed by the athletic departments Title IX Coordinator. So at that point who was it he hid anything from? You could argue he should have reported it to the larger entity of Title IX at the Office of University Compliance and Integrity. However I would point out since his Superior is the one who made him aware and since the Title IX Coordinator Miechelle Willis was already in the loop shouldn't that responsibility fall on Gene or Miechelle? Even Gene said as much?

Now I do agree when Zack Smith had the drug addiction issue failing to inform Gene or someone of a higher authority was a mistake on Urban's part. However if you are going to be fair, that was not and is not the issue so many people are raising hell about!

A.E. Porter

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BuckeyeSaab's picture

Agreed.  Zach was a bad hire and should have been let go long ago for performance issues.  The reprimand is warranted not for the hiring of ZS (Not even Saban has a perfect record on assistant coaches), but for letting his employment go on for years longer that it should have or most likely would have had there not been the Earl Bruce connection.

Anything beyond that is wading into the waters of a toxic relationship that we will never ever know what really happened.  Some people feel comfortable swimming in those water making proclamations on How Things Should Be®, I however do not.  I have seen abusive and toxic relationships up close in friends and family and from that experience I know enough to know I don't know enough.

Who is blue, fast and likes rangs?  The Dankey Kang.

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RunEddieRun1983's picture

I only wish that the media at large could read this and learn what non-bias reporting is about. I have no doubts that our entire 11w staff are some of the biggest Buckeye fans around, yet this is a non-partisan, and well thought out take on the situation.

Well done by all.

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

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3ydncloudofdust's picture

Very interesting read to say the least. Thanks. At least Ramzy mentioned McMurphy’s [and others] lack of scruples. But it does tend to be true that in this current time, people only tend hear the facts that help their agenda. 

"Three things can happen when you pass the ball, and two of them are bad." - Woody

 

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gumtape's picture

Truman: “The buck stops here”

Eisenhower: “If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt it is mine alone”

Urban Meyer: "I'm sorry we're in this situation"

High and tight boo boo

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johnblairgobucks's picture

Lol

Urban isn't getting the responsibility to decided if our country should drop the only 2 atomic bombs, that have ever been dropped in war time history

Urban isn't in charge of a D-Day invasion force trying to topple Nazi German

Urban is a football coach, Ohio State pays him very well, but he is at Ohio State to coach football

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TheBadOwl's picture

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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johnblairgobucks's picture

I dont know what this means, if you are aiming it at me.

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TheBadOwl's picture

It was in response to Gumtape's comment, not yours.

It's a riff on the list of quotes about personally taking accountability from famous people. 

Kanye West's 2016 album, The Life of Pablo, was released digitally only, and the artist was unsatisfied with its quality at release – particularly on the song 'Wolves' which differed vastly from its sound during a preview of the album – and vowed to fix it in subsequent 'updates' to the album. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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ecskid's picture

The well thought out dialogue here is much appreciated. 

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MOBUCKK91's picture

his was not the time to be a control freak. My first mentor for people management told me something that has stuck with me for years - her two most important rules for a manager were 1) Fire well 2) Hire well. In that order. It means when you made a hiring mistake, you take care of before it takes care of you.

Amazing clarity on leadership.  Some might call this management, but I see it as leadership.  Only leaders do proactively do these two things well.  I have defended Meyer for the past few years now citing how he has truly improved his leadership since he began as a coach.   I noted that the biggest jump in his leadership career was when he flamed out in FL.  Now he has the opportunity - yes I used that word - to do better, be better.  Pundits will say, "but at what cost?"  My answer to them is that true exponential growth rarely if ever comes from when you do everything right.  Rather, if there is a case where you have done everything "relatively" right, it's because you have failed multiple times in the past and have learned/grown from it.  

Relating to Urbz ... he has the opportunity to own the shortcomings and failures in this matter, redirect his leadership trajectory (personal life and public life), and be/do something better than before.  His reputation has taken a hit (rightly so) ... let's see what he'll do with that now. 

You don't know what you have until it's gone .... for example, toilet paper.

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Yoda888's picture

one of the panel said something along the lines of "toxic favoritism" which summarizes Meyer's role here. he's a kind human being and given the relationship w Bruce, fair enough. none of us are perfect. but it also shows the danger and consequences of this.

sensationalism is the essence of the media these days. someone's always getting "ripped", "blasted", "slammed, or "tore", etc... taking side and being divisive brings out the tribalism in all of us. gives all of us instant gratification of being a part of one.side or another.

Yoda888

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DukeofWeimar's picture

the story, the column, the information all of want to know is .....was there any validity to any of Courtney Smith's DV accusations? Is there any family member, friend, or neighbor that can corroborate any of her DV stories? Is there any witnesses to Courtney hitting Zach and committing DV herself?

If the Powell police believe she filed false police reports..why was she not arrested for that?

why hasn't any media really tried to investigate the mani issue here...DV proof against Zach Smith or DV proof against CS

that's the story we all want to read.

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matti's picture

I remember seeing an hbo documentary about the Washington post newpaper in its heyday after watergate and the heroin child report which the reporter made up and fabricated the story. In the light of this falsehood being published as news, the head editor told the reports just get all the facts and tell the truth warts and all about what happened with this reporter. If you like it or not that’s what this committee did it gathered the facts and told the truth warts and all about what happened. Same for all of the 11w staff I enjoy reading the webpage everyday and greatly appreciate you guys just telling the truth warts and all throughout this saga. Thank you for being  informative in this story and way better then a certain national sports syndacte who had decided long ago what the story was gonna be long before any facts. Now this is done live and learn from this and go buckeyes. 

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BullRusher's picture

Very good article. It brought an added perspective to me. But, now I can't help but wonder if the focus shouldn't be on where do we go from here instead of reliving the past few weeks. Sure, it's not over by a long stretch. The vilification and pontification by the media towards TOSU is not going to end anytime soon.

How can TOSU get in front of this to present an image that we are NOT a "just winning football games at ALL costs" institution/fan base, like we're being portrayed?

My brother and I were having a discussion about this and we were just spit-balling ideas. One of which was to donate to DV victims in the area where we play games. Just as an example; $5000/point scored by our Buckeyes. So let's say we beat Rutgers 60-3 (highly possible), TOSU would donate 300k to DV victims in the New Brunswick, New Jersey area.

This is just an idea in it's embryonic stages, of course. But I hope you get my meaning. Maybe it's time to start thinking about repairing the damage to our image as a University and Fan base while moving forward. Do/start something that hasn't been done before to show that we ACTUALLY do care about victims of DV.

A good general always makes you search for his weaknesses. - Woody Hayes

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bd2999's picture

Really, the donating of salaries during suspension would be the big thing and I liked that suggestion, I think Allison made it?

That said, I am not sure there is anything that can be done to help much. You don't really win this sort of thing. Sometimes people are ready to forgive but not in the heat of everything happening. At that point, people can be at their worst.

Not saying the suspension is wrong, just saying that I am not sure that anything short of firings would have stopped outcry. And even then, there would still be complaints about things in general.

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BullRusher's picture

While I agree with you, I think that there needs to be a starting point and soon. We're not going to stop the media from controlling their agenda and narrative. So why try?

Let's change the focus and the narrative. Just my opinion... 

A good general always makes you search for his weaknesses. - Woody Hayes

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SilverHaven's picture

Yes, Bull Rusher, it was a good discussion on looking back at the question of DV etc.  But was that the question that needed to be addressed?

Okazaki here in Hawaii said that a key to life is "Asking the right questions."

I think you are doing that, Bull Rusher, by asking about donating to DV, and asking about doing something to repair and edify after tearing down.

Aloha.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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JCM's picture

I always appreciate Ramzy's candor. 

Once a Buckeye, Always a Buckeye

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wjpalumbo's picture

This is a great discussion.  Although both Meyer and Gene Smith share in the failure in this situation, I believe Smith should shoulder a larger portion of the responsibility and heavier discipline.  He is the head of the athletic department afterall and two weeks is a vacation.  I won't attempt to determine whether 3 games for Meyer is appropriate because I am not privy to enough information and I am admittedly biased being a OSU football fan.

Where Meyer failed largely is putting a single staff member above the football program and university.  As the phrase goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".  I don't know all of the details and none of us probably will.  When did all of this unfold?  Was Zach walking the line from 2012 to 1015 and then fall of the rails?  Did he get back on the right track after missing visits and being late to meetings?  Whatever the case, I admire Coach Meyer for seemingly trying to help Zack Smith but I couldn't come up with a reason that he would keep him on the staff until yesterday.  I heard Matt McCoy remind us about Meyer's story at Earl Bruce's memorial where he came to Coach Bruce and told him he couldn't coach a player.  Bruce told Meyer that he would replace him with a coach that could then.  The message: don't give up on people.  I would have to think that this message is what led to Zach Smith getting so many chances along with Meyer's affinity for Coach Bruce.  In fact, it is the only reason I can see however misguided.  

In regards to the suspension. I think the only reason it is 3 games is to appearance.  If it would have been 2 games, everyone would have said OSU was to light because the first two games are against Oregon St. and Rutgers.  TCU in Texas will be a tough game and suspending Meyer for this game gives the appearance (or attempt to give the appearance) that the discipline handed down is not just for show.

 

 

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BuckeyeJay's picture

He got a DUI in 2013 (which was unreported, so really bad) and went to the strip club in 2014 with HS coaches. He was never walking the line 

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klfeck's picture

Sorry, but I feel like I am reading something equivalent to a political commentary on Fox or CNN by a bunch or people without experience in the subject at hand. As far as I can tell, there are no lawyers or people with law enforcement experience in this discussion. And saying that Urban should have done more since he makes so much money can be explained away as nothing more than spite based on envy. In the end, this is purely an opinion piece and no better than reading through comments in other sections.

Kevin

OH!!!!!

 

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TheBadOwl's picture
  1. Ramzy touches upon the lack of subject matter experts who were heard throughout this process and laments it as a failing of a wide range of media outlets throughout this story.
  2. If you're lamenting the lack of subject-matter experts in this story, do you concede that having Lori and Alison – two experienced journalists – give their perspectives on the media's handling of this whole storyline? Moreover, how about (finally) having two women give their opinions on what has ostensibly been predominantly a women's issue in domestic violence (while acknowledging that it is not solely an issue for women)? 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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klfeck's picture

There has been plenty of women's opinion all through this Saga. The "opinion" of Courtney Smith, the opinion of Earle Bruce's wife, The opinion of Courtney's mother, and eventually the opinion of Shelly Meyer. But thanks for playing the woman card. Hopefully it gets you laid :)

Kevin

OH!!!!!

 

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TheBadOwl's picture

Thanks! And congratulations on your new job as the posterboy for bad faith arguments! 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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buckzilla1's picture

Owl, I don't agree with much that you say but I do understand it and see where you are coming from. You thoughts on the matters make me think.

Hey Cancer! This ass kicking is brought to you by the Guernsey county mafia. Give it Hell 84!

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BullRusher's picture

It's cathartic

A good general always makes you search for his weaknesses. - Woody Hayes

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Bamabucknut's picture

Since when are university department heads supposed to monitor the family relations and make decisions about every employee in their department ? Then they must report every instance to the university for the university's decision making. The age  of "BIG BROTHER" is being forced upon OSU employees.Perhaps cameras in every household would solve the problem ?

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BuckeyeJay's picture

What about ignoring their work performance and giving them satisfactory performance reviews? 

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johnblairgobucks's picture

You ever sit back, after banging on Urban to be a perfect man, and wonder what you are doing with yourself, today? I know I mess stuff up I shouldn't. But it happens.

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BuckeyeJay's picture

Give me a freaking break. It's not like the DV allegation in 2015 was the only thing that Zach Smith did that Urban knew about

2014 Strip Club visit while on a work strip that involved HS coaches and may have been an NCAA violation- Good performance review

2016- Not even doing his job. Missing practice. Skipping recruiting visits. LYING about it. - Good performance review

2016- Being sent to rehab, skipping out day 3 of a 10 day program. - Good performance review and a 32% raise as a result. 

Urban knew about all those things. This isn't a "banging on Urban to be a perfect man" it's "a $7 million MANAGER should be way better than that" 

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johnblairgobucks's picture

Walk a year in Urban's shoes, then decide if you want to pick 3 instances from 3 years to pound on.
How many games, practices, recruiting events, family events, speaking events, yes he is still involved in events at Bowling Green, boosters tugging at his free time.....lotta movement going on, and he still has shit shower and shave, love his wife and be a father. Guess it's easy to be a coach at Ohio State and be flawless. Maybe you know of that person who can do all this and never make a few mistakes? Hasn't been done, so I'm kind of surprise people seem so violated that's Urban isn't perfect.

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BuckeyeJay's picture

Walk a year in Urban's shoes, then decide if you want to pick 3 instances from 3 years to pound on.

All 3 are fireable offenses on their own. Everything else you said is just noise 

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Johnny Ginter's picture

one of the most interesting things to me about this situation are reactions like these, because i really don't think that people understand what being a public employee entails in terms of scrutiny and responsibilities, especially when contact with minors is involved.

one example i'll give (and it's relevant, because i just had a meeting on it 20 minutes ago) is that as a mandated reporter, i am required by law to report to both the school counselor and the principal if i suspect either self-harm or abuse in any of my students. not doing so is literally breaking the law, and i've gone through that process over a dozen times as a teacher. had a student inflicted self-harm on themselves or been harmed by another and i had information about it but did nothing, i could easily lose my job and my license. and that's a good thing.

Jdadams01's picture

You're absolutely right, Johnny. But I think you're failing to fully grasp where people who make this argument are coming from. I fully think Urban made some god-awful management choices in how he handled Zach as an employee, from the poor WR performance, the skipping and lying about recruiting appointments, the drinking/drug-use, etc. Strong managers would have let Zach go long ago. Urban failed. But at what point does any superior, even a highly-scrutinized public employee, push the issue in marital disputes between two adults? If the Title IX director and AD were already aware, what should Urban have done differently specifically in regards to the DV allegations? Your situation as a mandated reporter for a minor in your care is not a one-to-one comparison here as neither Zach or Courtney are minors and Courtney was not even in Urban's care. And if the police, Title IX office, and AD are all aware of it, I don't think 99% of people would do anything else in that situation. And maybe that's an issue in itself, but I don't hold Urban to higher standard than I would hold any other public figure. People can understand the cries that Urban failed as leader/manager in keeping Zach around, but I think a lot of people here think Urban fulfilled his responsibilities in regards to Courtney and her allegations. And that was and is the main topic that the media has continually circled back to, DV in the Smith's marriage.

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Johnny Ginter's picture

honestly? just put the dude on administrative leave pending internal review or investigation. it's a good point to say that the title ix office failed in pushing the issue there, but urban was zach's direct superior and could've done so at any time (or initiated any punishment, which he didn't).

what this looks like to me is that both the school and gene ceded way too much power to urban in handling zach, and if urban or gene weren't willing to trigger a suspension or administrative leave in 2015, OSU should've stepped in and done it themselves.

Jdadams01's picture

It would have to be paid leave, but this is what *should* have been the best case. I don't think this would cross the mind 99% of the head coaches in America, though. On its face, placing an employee on leave, possibly to the detriment of your program/company, because they have been accused of DV sounds harsh. In the case of Zach Smith, it isn't due to his history - 2009, the drinking, the strip club incident, etc. 

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BucknutinNC's picture

JG, the last thing you said to me is what makes the most sense for this whole discussion!

"What this looks like to me is that both the school and Gene ceded way to much power to Urban in handling Zack, and if Urban and Gene weren't willing to trigger an administrative leave in 2015, OSU should've stepped in and done it themselves.

I agree with this 100% in theory. So let's examine this, in 2015 Urban was informed of this by Gene Smith. Gene was informed by the Title IX Coordinator Miechelle Willis. So if we go by the above guidelines, Gene knew before Urban so Gene should have told Urban to put him on leave or just done it himself since he is the one who called Zack and told him to come back and report to the Powell PD in the first place. And since Gene and Miechelle Willis were already aware of the situation shouldnt one of them contacted the Title IX office in the Office of University Compliance and Integrity? Gene himself said that not doing that was his failure not Urban's. And since Gene is the boss when he suggested Urban let Zack go whenever that was cant remember exactly, shouldn't he have just insisted or done it himself since he obviously was looking at the situation from a more objective perspective than Meyer who had close ties to Zack's family?

With looking at the 2015 from that point of view, I would say less responsibility falls on Meyer there and more on Gene Smith and Miechelle Willis! Ultimately one of them failed to report the situation to a higher power, and ultimately Gene should have made the call to put Zack on leave immediately upon finding out. Instead he ordered Zack to report to the Police and then informed Meyer of the situation and ultimately the decision to just monitor the situation and communicate with the police was his!

Curious as to your thoughts on this?

A.E. Porter

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flying-banana's picture

Ramzy - What you wrote/said in the first paragraph resonates with me and encompasses a lot of how I've felt about this entire situation since it started. I've followed every blog, article, report, and publication I can find about it from both sides of the table but it always comes back to a singular point: Urban Meyer's job responsibilities go well beyond simply the X's and O's on the field, there was a person who reached out for help dating all the way back to 2009 and they didn't get the help they needed. You'll get lambasted on this board because the tendency of Ohio State fans when the spotlight is on us is to close ranks and fight back; it's been clear that seems to be the reaction of many of the more vocal fans on this board and on other outlets. I don't fault anyone for that, it's understandable given some of the crap that has been dug up and slung during this saga, but it's why I've avoided ElevenWarriors more since this whole thing started. All that being said I still keep coming back to the same point; someone reached out for help, and they didn't get it from people who were capable of helping.

I'm very proud to be a graduate of Ohio State, but we as fans, leaders, and administrators can and should be better than this.

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BucknutinNC's picture

In reference to 2009, you are right that Courtney reached out for help. But if you look at that whole situation she first called the police, and Zack was arrested. She then called Zacks mom and told her. Then after cooling off and talking with people she decided to drop the charges. (NOW before someone starts screaming stupid suff read everything I'm about to say) I don't know if the allegations in 2009 were from a real case of abuse or if she made it up out of anger due to an argument, but she dropped the charges! She told the police and later told Urban Meyer when he spoke to both of them that the events she had described during the arrest weren't accurate. And that's why she dropped the charges. After talking to them and being told this Urban and Shelley both urged a young Zack and Courtney to seek counseling! Urban left florida after 2009 also. So being he was told by Courtney that the claims she had initially described weren't accurate and that's why she dropped the charges what other help was Urban supposed to give other than urging the couple to seek counseling for their marriage? And being he lft after 2009 for health concerns and was dealing with that even in 2010 where he ultimately left again for good. What exactly was he supposed to do that he didn't? Also Zack left Florida and went to Marshall and Temple between 2009 and ending up in Columbus. As far as Meyer knew things had been fine between the allegations in 2009 and 2012 when he came to OSU.

A.E. Porter

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Jerseyboy7's picture

Allison, it would be great if the media actually sought out the truth! The truth no longer matters, it's all about the splash factor, truth be damned!

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TheBadOwl's picture

Blame corporatization, commodification and consolidation of media entities for the emphasis on 'splash factor' – but as they touched upon in this piece, while there are undoubtedly journalists and outlets that report in bad faith and leave out key details – the media as a whole has a duty to do better. 

There's a lot that goes into good journalism – whether that's good reporting, structure of stories, asking tough questions, public records research, editorial oversight/policies, adhering to legal processes, interviewing (or at least talking to) subject matter experts, providing proper context, etc. – and it undoubtedly still exists and is easy to find provided you know what to look for and understand that a reporter's work and merit are based on those criteria rather than fitting whichever narrative personally makes you most comfortable. 

Hate bad journalism? Become a savvier consumer of media. Read pieces of this, where exceptional journalists like Alison and Lori talk about their industry. Learn how to identify bad reporting and how to suspend your personal preferences when encountering good reporting. Don't hold one reporter's bad faith actions against the industry as a whole – hold it against their publication (unless a retraction is issued, or, in McMurphy's case, there is none) and be more skeptical of their future works. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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Buck68's picture

i wonder what it would take for _____ to "actually seek out the Truth"?

totally... honestly... actually... really?

Hope this post lasts for more than an hour... if the hour is late....

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Buckeye Chuck's picture

It means when you made a hiring mistake, you take care of it before it takes care of you.

Boy, is that ever the lesson to take away from this. Urban's response to the Zach problem — and I think he did know it was a problem — was to point him toward the exit in passive-aggressive ways such as his tiny pay increase a couple of years back. Of course, Smith probably had the sense to know that his issues were common knowledge enough in the industry that he would be unemployable on this level (to say nothing of ever getting the promotions that a young position coach might expect) anywhere else. So he stayed put, and Urban wouldn't bite the bullet.

I thought the comments about the role of the media were nuanced and fair. I believe the vast majority of reporters and commentators try to get it right. But while people observing this event from afar, or parachuting in to Columbus occasionally like Pat Forde, might have the advantage of distance that comes with not being fans/alumni, they can also approach stories like this with their own biases that go something like, "OSU = football factory = the coach runs the school so of course he's going to skate on this."

What's harder is to care about the university, and personally know or professionally have to deal with the people involved in this crisis, and still manage to cover all of it in a way that doesn't whitewash anything, but also makes room for subtleties and tries to avoid stereotyping. This article is an excellent example.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

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KMEBH's picture

Kyle and 11W - do your research before suggesting no precedents for a similar problem.  See:  Jonathan Taylor, Alabama, 2015. 

 Saban brings in a kid with a history of DV and other issues.  Taylor subsequently accused of additional DV.  Results:

Taylor dismissed.   (Smith dismissed)

Saban serves no suspension whereas Meyer gets 3 games

University that approved the scholarship to Taylor does NOT suspend AD.  OSU suspends AD

Saban offers no apology to alleged victim, neither does Meyer.   

While not precisely equal (what cases are?) we should keep in mind that Saban brought in a kid who was arrested for DV (Smith has never been).  In doing so he put the students at Alabama at risk.  This is a FAR GREATER violation than the alleged ignoring of the risk to an employees spouse. 

Does it make what Alabama - the institution -  did right?   Who knows?   But clearly the punishment meted out by OSU was far harsher for what is arguably no worse of an offense so in that regard, yes its what "should" have happened

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TheBadOwl's picture

Does it make what Alabama - the institution -  did right?   Who knows?   But clearly the punishment meted out by OSU was far harsher for what is arguably no worse of an offense so in that regard, yes its what "should" have happened

Let's not look at the quality of Alabama's handling of a social issue as a bar to clear – let's look at it as one to exceed by a great margin. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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KMEBH's picture

agree - that's the whole point.   OSU did exceed the Alabama standard by a significant margin yet still gets flogged relentlessly for not doing enough.  

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obsessed_buckeye's picture

LORI: It felt to me like me like an attempt to appease everyone, which is sure way to please nobody

In my experience as a team leader, pleasing no one equates to being the right decision. 

62 - 39 = 7 consecutive

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denniscolumbus's picture

I appreciate and applaud this article and the participants of this panel. There were some excellent points which brought some perspectives I personally haven’t witnessed concerning this situation. Eleven Warriors should be proud to publish articles like these. 

With that said, there was a lot of agreement with this panel. One statement lead to an agreement by another panelist with further clarification of the point. Shouldn’t someone of a different opinion or perspective have been included in this panel? Not to create an argument so to speak but to at least not seem one sided.

There is a posted opinion above stating how is Meyer supposed to wear all of the hats expected of him? I couldn’t agree more. The panelist that commented that OSU should do more and Meyer should do more and not just what is in his contract. To that I say what is more? Should he pry into some else’s marriage? Demand counseling? Which is what he tried to do in 2009. Is there something I’m missing? He only knows what he’s told. ZS wasn’t forthcoming and Meyer relied right or wrong on the reports from police. So, what is more?

Class of 2001 - classless since then.

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SilverState's picture

With that said, there was a lot of agreement with this panel. One statement lead to an agreement by another panelist with further clarification of the point. Shouldn’t someone of a different opinion or perspective have been included in this panel? Not to create an argument so to speak but to at least not seem one sided.

^^

There is a posted opinion above stating how is Meyer supposed to wear all of the hats expected of him? I couldn’t agree more. The panelist that commented that OSU should do more and Meyer should do more and not just what is in his contract. To that I say what is more? Should he pry into some else’s marriage? Demand counseling? Which is what he tried to do in 2009. Is there something I’m missing? He only knows what he’s told. ZS wasn’t forthcoming and Meyer relied right or wrong on the reports from police. So, what is more?

Exactly, I think Lori hit the nail on the head:

it seems to me a lot of us have defined Meyer's mistakes in this case as a failure to do more, but - depending on his motives - this could have been a matter of Meyer trying to do too much. 

It's so easy to sit back and talk about how Meyer should've done more. But Urban has a history of trying to do too much. Everyone here is starting with the DV frame. Rehabilitating Zach was most likely Urban's frame. Zach was basically family to him, ffs. He was probably trying to protect him.

So it was certainly a blind spot. But he should be expected to do less. Continuing training about delegating. Recognizing blind spots. Implying other lesser paying jobs are available if you can't do more reeks of a judgmental, holier-than-thou view.

We're human and going to protect family. We just need to account for our desire to do more by doing less.

"There's still some green showing before you see the chalk."

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denniscolumbus's picture

Thanks SS. I think I missed what Lori said the first time I read it. That actually makes more sense to me and also seems to fit this situation well. 

I hope I didn’t come off as an “excuser”. I really didn’t understand when others are saying “he” or should do more. 

^1

Class of 2001 - classless since then.

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biggy84's picture

I have no idea what to make of the punishment. A mediocre coach would've been run out of town on a rail

If Urban Meyer was a mediocre coach, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The media wouldn't have made such a huge issue out of this. 

Why hasn't anyone brought up what looks to be HIPAA violations by disclosing ZS going to rehab and battling addiction? Employers should never release such details. Ever

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Johnny Ginter's picture

Why hasn't anyone brought up what looks to be HIPAA violations by disclosing ZS going to rehab and battling addiction? 

that's an interesting question, so i asked my wife, an HR manager who specializes in cases like this

she basically said that if that information was offered up freely by zach smith or urban meyer in the course of the investigation, there is no hipaa violation. hipaa is technically just between the provider and the patient, and if OSU didn't provide the rehab, then they're not party to the hipaa agreement (as best i can convey)

biggy84's picture

Thank you for the response. Hopefully ZS gave his consent for it to be shared. If not, it is a terrible invasion of his privacy. I know a few things about this on a personal level.

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TheVictoryBell's picture

Why do you still talk like Courtney Smith is a clear victim. She’s made countless false accusations. The police have investigated her claims on many occasions and found nothing and her own parents say she is lying. 

I think Urban did all he could do. He wasn’t aware of some of the other things Zach Smith was doing. He can’t be a million places at once. 

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Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

Why do you still talk like Courtney Smith is a clear victim. She’s made countless false accusations

I think the clearest subtext from the investigative report and the press conference was that nobody finds her credible. If iI'm coming across that way (suggesting she's the clear victim) I'm doing it wrong. Reading between the lines, she instigated physical contact with him as a result of his serial and sloppy infidelity. Those are two things that are prosecuted differently. By the way, Urban knew about what Zach was doing to get himself in physical altercations with his wife. He wasn't very good at being covert.

My position and intent is that when you, in a position of power, learn of DV allegations - you should do what Johnny suggested on several occasions: Administrative leave, investigation. Don't confuse my position with many in the media , who we discussed at length in the media section, playing fast and loose with facts and assumptions. Urban handled this poorly, valid or not. 

As Zach's file filled up with red flags across the spectrum, Urban did nothing about it. I'm detached from the "is Courtney credible" aspect of this because you can remove her entirely from what the investigation produced and you're still left wondering how in the hell he was retained for so long.

Fatpants's picture

you're still left wondering how in the hell he was retained for so long.

Two words: Avery Atkins

PG <3 PG

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Fatpants's picture

For the google averse:

https://www.seccountry.com/pwa/florida/florida/article/urban-meyer-avery...

I know this deals with player discipline, but it’s not terribly unreasonable to think this didn’t also effect the way Meyer would look at a troubled assistant. 

PG <3 PG

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EnonBuck79's picture

Yes on this. Well you can even jump back in time for the story he gave at Earle Bruce's funeral. He wanted to stop coaching a kid (wasn't paying attention, going to class, thought he was a "bad dude") Went to talk to Earle Bruce about getting rid of the kid because he couldn't coach him. Earle Bruce told him to go because he would find someone who could coach that kid. Everybody in the world, including his parents, could give up on that kid but don't ever be the coach that gave up on him.

It's a weird kind of symbolism or serendipity that the main value of not giving up on people and believing there is some good in them is the one thing that bites him in the ass by the grandson of the guy that taught it to him.

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BuckeyeJay's picture

As Zach's file filled up with red flags across the spectrum, Urban did nothing about it. I'm detached from the "is Courtney credible" aspect of this because you can remove her entirely from what the investigation produced and you're still left wondering how in the hell he was retained for so long.

So very well said again, Ramzy 

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AdvancedBuckeye's picture

"As Zach's file filled up with red flags across the spectrum, ... from what the investigation produced and you're still left wondering how in the hell he was retained for so long."

I think everyone pretty much agrees Zach was kept too long. Personally I think the reason may have been more of an allegiance issue with Earle Bruce than Zach. He passed this last spring, had a stroke in 2015, dotted the eye in 2016 and was at least somewhat active in OSU football for many years. I believe Urban was stuck trying to protect Coach Bruce and his legacy from the shameful behavior of his grandson-at least while he was alive.

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Buck68's picture

IMO this is the first, constructive discourse at the fan level of this situation and related issues.

Sure there's plenty of way to go...  There are yet unsupported allegations and conclusions, and substantive omissions.

But... BRAVO!  This is more than a 'start'....

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TheBadOwl's picture

We can have discussions about how domestic violence allegations should be handled (and taken very seriously) separately from discussions about the validity of the allegations in a specific case.

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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Buck68's picture

exactly, TBOwl...

and, rationally, "validity" requires definition of what is to be validated...

among other boring things...   ;-{)}

And we can then take from this conceptual, legal, case study... a list of investigatory questions that can reveal where/what/on what bases are the restrictions to our 'investigation'... e.g. The Privacy Act....

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ARMYBUCK's picture

What stands out to me is that they continue to say this could have started a conversation about domestic violence, which is true and I despise domestic violence. On the flip side, it could really shine a light on false accusations.  Unfortunately, we still don't know which one this is.

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Buck68's picture

And ArmyBuck, there are many moral, legal, cultural, and informal restrictions across the rational investigatory spectrum.

By 'interpreting', we keep creating more conflict and contradictions....  

While, in namen der Progress and Fairness, we have been removing the bases for legitimate authority and the means for accountability.

Perhaps 'more'... is not 'better'.  And neither are 'core values'....

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SilverHaven's picture

Surprised by your use of italicized words of German, except shouldn't you have used "im" for "in" and "des" for "der" and capitalized Name as a noun?

"im Namen des Fortschritts..."

And that's about the extent of my German.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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BucksHave7's picture

The confusing thing about this situation was that the police were involved from the beginning.

BucksHave7

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Jdadams01's picture

First off, this is fantastic. If 11W is going to provide opinions on this mess, I love seeing it done this way, with open conversation featuring intelligent participants, trying their best to not be over-the-top in any one direction. Well done, 11W.

I did want to address a Ramzy statement:

RAMZY: I still cannot determine if getting simultaneously accused for cheerleading for OSU and virtue signaling/unfairly crushing OSU is a sign of doing it right, doing it wrong or that there's just no way to please not just everybody, but anybody.

Obviously, you are right in the ending portion of your statement. But I also think there is a need to differentiate between covering the news and editorializing the news. And to be clear, I'm not talking about 11W or Ramzy specifically here, just using his statement as the basis for my thoughts. I think that from about the midpoint on of this whole circus, 11W has done a very good job of just presenting the information they were getting. Most news and media outlets, however, simply present their opinions as the news and your average American seems unable to differentiate between what is opinion and what is fact. I think the key is for the media to be more transparent and up front on what they are presenting, whether it be fact or opinion. And many in the media don't seem to be able to discern that their opinions aren't facts. To point out a statement from Alison:

Second: what irks me too is “he lied to the media.” Unless you personally get your updates by directly communicating with Urban Meyer, (or whomever), he lied to the public; the media is not a separate entity in this scenario. The media is a conduit.

The media is 100% a separate entity in this case and this shows a lack of understanding on how the public views the media and how the news media has changed it's primary function over the years. Urban Meyer was not addressing the public when he answered those questions on Media Day, he was addressing reporters. The media is not a clean funnel that simply passes on information any more. Yes, the media is a conduit, but it's not a clean, unfiltered conduit, and public figures react accordingly. No public personality views answering questions from a reporter as addressing the public because they know that there is always a danger of the reporter twisting or cherry-picking their statements to create content. When media members try to push this argument it wreaks of self-righteousness and condescension. Fox News and CNN both spin "news" to meet their agendas. So do ESPN, BTN, FS1, etc. These media outlets are 100% NOT THE PUBLIC.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I used to work with a peer who said, "There's no way to make everyone happy, but as long as I'm only pissing them all off equally I must be doing something right."

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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BucknutinNC's picture

That must be a military thing! I used to tell the guys in my unit, especially the guys below me who used to belly ache when I was being hard on them, they didn't have to worry about me looking down on them or discriminating against them due to political views, religion, race or creed! That I evaluate everyone one one simple basic fact, performance! And since one day my life may depend on you, until you prove to me otherwise you're all idiots! I am an equal opportunity hater gentlemen, and I hate all of you sons a bitch's!

LMAO!

A.E. Porter

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infantrybuck's picture

Said every single Command Sergeant Major I've ever worked for.

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SilverHaven's picture

And, Adams, was the medium ever clean?  The NYT and WaPo and Walter Cronkite on CBS Evening News could present the news as they saw fit, and I didn't know the difference.  Now I can readily check the actual videos and the actual transcripts and read the actual reports and get backup info on wikipedia and see for myself the obvious bias in their reporters.

The British internet press has done a much better job of moving into modern reporting. Unlike American media that still issue there "write-ups," the Brits will provide numerous photos, links to videos, insert maps, etc.  So I get, to the extent possible, a full, unbiased concept of what is actually happening.  The NYT still wants to just provide a written slant based on their well-documented biases.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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Jdadams01's picture

Honestly, it's likely never been clean. Even reading newspapers from the 1700s you can find slants. 'Cleaner' may have been a better word as I think today's clickbait, venomous reporting is at an all-time low.

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sdalbright67's picture

Ramzy - I keep hearing the national and local (Houston) sports talk shows saying the same things as you in regards to Meyer and that he was somehow covering something up. What exactly was he covering up? To believe this, you first have to accept that Courtney Smith was a victim, and that she was failed by members of law enforcement. Based on everything that I have read and my own personal 26 year relationship, I do not see how anyone can come to that conclusion. Being much closer to the situation than I am, I would trust that Urban could also see that Courtney Smith was likely only a victim of her own actions. Look no further than the comments made by her own mother. To hold Meyer responsible for, and punishing him for, being discrete is a travesty. He read the situation as it was, saw that even local law enforcement did not find Courtney to be credible enough to file charges, that Courtney did not pursue charges or relief from the court system, so why the need to report or conceal?  In fact, he did still report it.

One of his employees was in a bad marriage. One where the wife was vindictive and quick to call the police as a weapon of choice, but never willing to go any further. Urban was discrete. He stood by his employee and managed the situation as best he could as a boss. The way you and everyone else has reacted to this, you would think that Meyer was holding Courtney down while Zach was giving her a beating. The focus should have never been turned onto Meyer or the athletic department and should have stayed on Zach and Courtney Smith. The hard questions should have been turned toward law enforcement for not doing anything (if abuse was actually taking place), and then back to Courtney for using the police to seek revenge for whatever indiscretions were committed by Zach. Don't forget that this all came to the front when she set Zach up for trespassing. This should have been everyone's first clue.

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Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

Ramzy - I keep hearing the national and local (Houston) sports talk shows saying the same things as you in regards to Meyer and that he was somehow covering something up. What exactly was he covering up? 

His text messages. In the immediate aftermath of learning there would be an investigation. There's no evidence he covered up anything else.

sdalbright67's picture

I will agree with that. That was not a good look at all, however, I do not believe it should have gone that far to being with and did not warrant a suspension. Thanks for your response.

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BucknutinNC's picture

There is also no evidence that he covered up anything pertaining to the investigation either. He could have just been worried about some of his personal conversations with his wife and kids or other friends becoming public? He could have been worried that perhaps some of his texts that may have been on there had some things that were jokes but without proper context could have looked bad if taken out of context? Or maybe he was erasing things that directly had to do with the 2015 incident? There is no way to know!

For you to say it had to do with a "cover up" is pure speculation on your part backed up by no direct evidence therefore it is just your opinion. Stating it as if its fact is wrong! Stating it as fact is no better than the way Paul Finebaum states the Urban kept a known abuser on staff. First Zack is still not kniwn to be an abuser so saying that is false and irresponsible as a "Journalist" because he's purposely feeding a false narrative to the public. He also calls Urban a liar and accuses him of being uncaring toward the victim of DV. This also is irresponsible and untrue. Its all his opinion which he has no proof to back up! There is no proof that she is a victim, and as far as how Urban feels toward victims of DV Paul wouldn't know because he's not a mind reader. And its not even clear the Courtney is a victim but that doesnt stop him from declaring it as if its facts! I used him as an example but there are many invthe media that have done the same and its ridiculous. Point being when it comes to the reason as to why he deleted texts, we dont know with absolute certainty what he was worried that people might see, to speculate and form an opinion is natural, but for a reporter to put his opinion out as if its facts is irresponsible. Obviously if you want to share your opinion you are free to do so but as a reporter its only fair to declare that those kind of statements are just that your opinion. Now if you have facts and proof that he hid something in an effort to cover up something intentionally then by all means share it! Show everyone the proof and put out a report on it, thats fair game. If you can't though, kinda unfair to say stuff like that.

A.E. Porter

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Chicago Connection's picture

See, the problem is that these people don't want to be actual journalists, since that occupation pretty much doesn't exist anymore, at least not in anyway that is trusted.

Small surprise that these shills are in denial of the fact that only about 5% of the population trusts them. They need to keep up the charade to keep chugging along as if they're the still the only merchants of truth in town.

In any case, while many mouthpieces still like being called "journalists" (God knows why, that is, beyond financial motives), most aspire to being national media mouthpieces some day, in which case, you have to make sure you sound like a good boy who follows national narratives.

I think that's what is at work here, probably on an unconscious level, which is how most sheep proceed.

It's an understandable ambition, because it's still a lucrative field, perhaps more than it ever was, precisely because it's such a bought-and-paid-for industry.  Sure, it doesn't pay especially well at the lower ranks, but that kids can always be wannabes, right?

Media execs are the highest paid top positions in any industry, which isn't a fitting category anymore, since we all know that they're basically advertising execs. Meanwhile, national media figures rake in huge paydays, and that's usually what the kids are really seeking.

But first, mostly on an unconscious level, they know that they must conform to the national narrative. That's the way the game is played today. You won't find it in any textbooks, of course, but then, no film course ever teaches that the "casting couch" is a fundamental reality in that particular sector of the media.

Fact is, the media one big casting couch in countless ways, the most important one being conformity to the prevailing narratives.

chicagobuckeye

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BucksHave7's picture

How come NO national media covering this story state the police were involved from the start?  Seems they intentionally want to imply that Urban and tOSU kept this woman in harms way, when that is not true.

BucksHave7

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buckeyeinWI's picture

FIRE MEYER!

jk, but enough already...

GO BUCKEYES!

16-2 is SWEET!

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Trebor40's picture

Lori - 'You need to prove someone not guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" ' 

I have to admit being very troubled by the fact that such an error as Lori made here was not corrected when she misspoke or at least edited after consulting her by such a large number of journalists at a round table discussion! I work for a non-profit that enters prisons throughout the state and teaches cognitive behavioral therapy among other basic needs and skills. I have been doing this for more than a few years and though I deal with clients that make Zach Smith look like a noble on a daily basis they were and are all innocent until proven GUILTY beyond a reasonable doubt! I am sad to say this affected every thing written about your conversation from that point on. 

Either you as a whole felt so distraught by the "leniency" of Urban Meyer's suspension that you did not catch her obvious error or you completely agreed with Lori's misstatement and feel it was factual (which is disgusting and frightening for those of us who work in the re-entry field) 

I fight battles every month with a massive number of people who disregard any thought that these men AND women might have redeeming qualities that reading through your group think on this topic or topics saddens me because I firmly believe each of you through your competence in nuance controls much of the dialogue around you and I cannot help but wonder what chance those I am helping to return to society would have in and around word smiths with such a belief as EVERY MAN IS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!!!!!!!!

I would rather be on hand with 10 men then elsewhere with 10,000 - Timur Lenk

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Lori Schmidt's picture

This was, in fact, a misstatement on my part. I went through several different wordings on this, trying to be precise. Ironically, at one point forgot to delete the word not and--not only muddied the water, but as you point out made an inaccurate statement. If Eleven Warriors wants to edit this that would be fine with me...so long as they mark the edit.

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Lori Schmidt's picture

You're the best, Ramzy! Thanks so much for including me in this, and sorry about the bad typing.

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Trebor40's picture

THANK YOU! For taking the time to state something regarding this post is greatly appreciated, and looking at the round table days later with this reply in mind helps considerably (regardless of my opinions). You each convey glimpses of your distress and I appreciate the cautious nature of traversing this minefield ( Parole Board hearings come to mind ), when EVERYONE cares about something being addressed in the conversation! Irony being those few men and women that I know personally in journalistic fields cherish the rare times when each reader hangs on every word yet are keenly aware that the lens that their statements are viewed through are varied and at times polarized in these same rich moments. 

I reacted to what appeared to be a dismissive gesture when much of your conversation was pertinent - for that I apologize and I once again thank you for your time and effort! 

I would rather be on hand with 10 men then elsewhere with 10,000 - Timur Lenk

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Mssweene's picture

First let me start by saying yes Meyer and Smith have some responsibility, but pushing the responsibility all the way down the chain to them is an injustice to stopping domestic violence. This was a failure of everyone. The police, her family, her friends, his family, his friends. To me all of those have a greater responsibility than Zach's bosses and employer. We ALL have the responsibility to stop violence. All of this talking about Meyer's and Smith's responsibility is only avoiding the real issue and does nothing to stop the violence.

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Cooper's picture

...is coping with the idea that there isn't always going to be a clear good guy and bad guy. This is especially hard to deal with in sportswriting because the concept of "winners" and "losers" is baked in from the jump; the idea that Zach and Courtney Smith's relationship involved possible domestic violence from both sides is among the many, many complexities of that issue people struggle with (and frankly most sportswriters aren't equipped to explain).

Which is why you're 100% right, people in the media and people who consume it need to be willing to accept expertise from people outside of the clubhouse, such as domestic violence experts and survivors, and avoid looking at an issue like this through the lens of a competition.

This is a very well-thought take, Johnny.

This is definitely where I parked my car.

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QBYBuckeye's picture

Alleged abuse is not abuse.  Sometimes the allegations are the abuse. If there was no abuse, then nothing needs to be done other than to assure that there was no abuse.  Zach was a dirtbag and should not have been hired, but there was no evidence of abuse.  Courtney alleged abuse because she didn't know what else to call Zach's despicable behavior.  In the process she turned into a kind of abuser.  It is in the court system now and will be aired publicly. They took their pound of flesh from Urban and Gene.  It is done and will not be undone.  They will deal with it in their own ways.

Let's get back to football.

New York Buckeye

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JasonBuck's picture

As much I appreciate and enjoyed reading this article, without naming names, it still comes off that a certain member comes off as "self righteous" in this whole debate in my opinion. I guess that's what's irritated me the most, that everyone thinks that Urban should have been perfect and he wasn't.  I will admit when I first heard the announcement, I was upset and angry regarding the suspension.  After reading the report, I agree with it.  

As far as Urban trying to delete texts, I honestly don't blame him.  In a vaccum without any context, text messages can be twisted and the meaning of the text can be misconstrued especially by the media.  In today's digital age, we focus so much on what's written by someone without delving into the context in which the person typing it is trying to convey.  And after writing numerous reports/letters in my day job, context is one of the hardest points to get across when all your doing is writing something (hence why verbal follow up calls are scheduled to discuss reports, so that one can convey context).  Do you think the media would call Urban and say, "Hey Urban, we have this text from your phone, can we schedule a time to discuss the context of this text?", let's me honest, that would never happen...

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Facemeat2's picture

Self righteous indeed. If the 11w overlords sitting high atop their pedestals wouldn’t infringe on my 1st amendment rights, I could actually speak my mind. Instead, in the face of banishment, those two words will have to suffice 

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Jason Priestas's picture

You know that's not how the 1st Amendment works, right?

Facemeat2's picture

Can we have that discussion here or shall we do it in private? It might touch on the political. 

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Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

TL;DR 11W is not the government. There is no 1st Amendment here for us to infringe.

TheBadOwl's picture

TL;DR 11W is not the government.

Wait, really? Shit, where have I been sending my money to then? 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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SilverHaven's picture

That's what they emphasize at Facebook too, and yet...

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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SilverHaven's picture

LOL. I can't believe you, FM2.  You better watch out, you have the big kahuna nui nui coming after you. 
And assuming you're not that familiar with Hawaiian, "kahuna nui nui" is literally the highest high priest, which is fitting for the name Priestas.
I'm just going to lay low in my little grass shack.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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SilverState's picture

So. Much. This.

"There's still some green showing before you see the chalk."

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Ramzy Nasrallah's picture

As much I appreciate and enjoyed reading this article, without naming names, it still comes off that a certain member comes off as "self righteous" in this whole debate in my opinion.

There are devices people use to soften their opinions, like you just did - that last three words in your sentence. You can throw an IMHO in front of a thought, you can reduce some sting if you have a strong take by sprinkling throwaway words to dilute it. I don't do that. I get annoyed when people begin sentences with "to be honest with you" because that implies you're normally dishonest. My positions change, I'm eager to learn, I've been wrong, I'll be wrong. If that's self-righteous, cool.

Chicago Connection's picture

Why disable up votes and down votes? In fairness, as well as in the interests of the very same transparency that you seek from Urban Meyer, Eleven Warriors moderators would do well to consider that Urban Meyer would have fared a whole lot better if the bosses of reality didn't allow any down votes against him.

chicagobuckeye

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JasonBuck's picture

Ramzy, I appreciate you saying I was trying to dilute my opinion; however, the opposite is the case.  I didn't want to come across that my opinion should be everyone else's.  I think in today's environment, that the "media" and the vocal minority thinks that when they are expressing their opinions that they are somehow expressing the opinion of the "masses".  I think something that we can all learn is something called diplomacy...maybe my time in the Army taught me how to be diplomatic when expressing ones opinion, however; I appreciate people who don't think they have to be, but often times, those people contribute very little to a reasonable outcome, again, in my opinion.  And I find it interesting that you thought you were the "one member" I was speaking about and chose to respond to it. I didn't name names specifically because my opinion of your opinions, didn't warrant to specifically name who I thought was coming across a certain way, as you've said I've been wrong, and I will be wrong in the future.

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SilverState's picture

 I didn't want to come across that my opinion should be everyone else's

I appreciate a "imho" every once in a while - not to make a hot take more palatable - but to dispel this very issue. Without, it easily can come off like:

  • "my take is the right take,"
  • "you should have my take"
  • "my take is fact versus opinion," and/or
  • "anyone not in line with my take is should be ashamed of themselves."

"There's still some green showing before you see the chalk."

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JasonBuck's picture

Thanks Silver, I completely agree with everything you said.  Sometimes, being diplomatic in how you present your opinion to others, can sometimes more easily move people to your opinion, as you aren't "forcing" anything on them (your opinion).  

When trying to lead large groups to a consensus, how you convey your opinion in your words can more easily lead to a consensus especially in large groups, in my opinion (I only threw that in there to keep the narrative going haha)...  

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Chicago Connection's picture

Someone seems a little sensitive here, and it isn't you, Jason.

You'd think that the self-appointed Lords of Truth could withstand the reality of a diversity of opinions, as well as the diversity of reality itself.

I mean, given the self-evident nature of a truly superior opinion, you'd think that such folks wouldn't need to insist on their righteousness so desperately, since the truth simply is what it is, and then, once it's 'out there' and convincingly stated, this truth should be able to speak for itself?

I'd also like to think that diversity, if not a little respect, would invite a bit of authentic reflection.

But then, ya' know, the smaller you shrink the box of your reality, the easier it is to be a know-it-all, which, IMHO, sure looks like the problem here.

In any case, kudos to you for genuinely respecting the opinions of others while stating your own.

Certain folks might want to follow your lead, which is a fitting disposition from someone in the military.

Of course, there's the old cliche about the military being a bastion of mindless conformity, and to be sure, obedience is a necessary part of the package when it comes to getting large groups of people to work together, but so is respect, including the realization that your way isn't always the only way.

Thanks for modeling best behavior for the panel members. I hope some folks take notice.

chicagobuckeye

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JasonBuck's picture

Thanks Chicago, I don't think Ramzy was being "sensitive", more he has a different way of conveying his opinions, which right or wrong, is how he chooses to convey them.  As far as everything else, I agree with everything you said.

And the military does require a certain amount of obedience, but as a leader of men, you have to be able to convey your opinion in a manner that brings about respect from the men you are leading.  A man who fears you as a leader , will only go so far, but a man who respects you, will run through a wall for you and then some.  And I know this is cliche but the saying, "Respect is earned, and not given" holds true in every aspect of life, the military included.

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TJG32's picture

I could give two shits to what the panel thinks *should* have happened. Do they have more information than the investigative committee?  Let’s move on. 

TG Proud Buckeye alumnus.

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triliogy13's picture

I think all of you missed the point. I don't condone DV , but this issue relates to Urban , Gene and the University  about contract law, title 9 and reporting. Did these people fulfill their contractual obligation. People are focused on Zack and Cortney and without legal charges what was done. The comments made in the report state the issue should have been reported to compliance. The Powell police contacted the compliance officer who in turn notified Gene who notified Urban. Common sense says if compliance knew, who do they report to and what action should they have taken. Compliance relates to all university employees not just athletics. The university had significant financial liability  in regards to Gene, Urban and any other potential litigation. 

Now I believe Urban and Gene used bad judgement regarding Zack"s continued performance issues. Also did Urban do everything right NO. Is the 3 game suspension warranted probably not based on his contract and the university release. It appears between the president and a couple of powerful financial board members significant pressure was put on to force a national appearance of action. Should he have been suspended for not managing his department maybe. The problem with the whole situation is the wrong decision was made for the wrong reason and the suspension not done for the right reasons.

buckeye1975

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

This was a fantastic discussion, and I appreciate the time and thought all the journalists put into it. 

I do find fault in one common thought proposed by many about the role of higher education. 

I think there's a major difference in that the former is still employed by an educational institution whose mission is to prepare young people for adult life.

Both my wife and I are college graduates, as are our parents. We have a son, who’s a sophomore at OSU and a daughter preparing to start college next year. 

We discussed this idea at length last night, and we could not disagree with your statement more. College students are adults, young adults, but adults. My wife and I left our homes to get a degree that would enable us to work as adults, not for the school to prepare us to be adults. In my personal case, going tonthe US Naval Academy, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution six weeks before I started my first class. If I wasn’t prepared to be an adult before that, the country was making a big mistake. 

I’m not proposing that an 18-year old has the maturity and life experience to make adult decisions for others (run a business, lead a small group, etc.), but their basic sense of right and wrong, working habits, and personality tendencies are largely formed. Yes their minds will expand in college, they may pick up some better habits, they may even learn something useful, but for the most part we don’t stray too far from the person we became before we ever arrived at college. 

TL/DR: If we’re being perfectly honest with ourselves, did college really prepare us to be adults? It may have added to the process but the 18 years before college were infinitely more formative in our character and “adulthood.”

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Kyle Jones's picture

Navy, appreciate the thought that went into this comment, and I think I should clarify my stance a bit more here, as I agree with much of what you're saying.

Of course the 18 years prior to college have more of an impact on how you'll spend the rest of your life than the 4 you spend in college. That's not really up for debate. Additionally, as a nation, we've all agreed that an 18-year old is an adult, who is given the full freedoms of citizenship, as well as the responsibility that comes with it.

Maybe saying "adult life" wasn't the correct choice of words, as I didn't intend to say that college students aren't already capable of making decisions. However, the biggest factor in a person's development often comes when that safety net is removed for the first time when they leave for college. They may know right and wrong, but have never been asked to make those decisions without the help of a parent or mentor nearby. 

I'm obviously just guessing with this statement, but I'd assume the structure in place at the Naval Academy helped refine your experiences prior to it, and if nothing else, reinforced them through clear disciplinary consequences. But with the help of fellow students, upperclassmen, teachers, or in this case, coaches, students are forced to live up to the ethics and values they'd spent the previous 18 years developing. 

If those around them aren't willing to hold a person accountable for their decisions, however, that person may feel it's less important to stay true to those values (i.e. don't steal, fight, or deceive another person), which can shape the way they choose to act in the future. 

NavyBuckeye91's picture

You make many excellent points, Kyle, and I agree with them. Thanks for the response. 

I just seems that in these situations where a professor, coach or administrator falls short of expectations, people are quick to overstate that individual’s import in the development of young adults. I’m not saying that these leaders shouldn’t be setting the example, they absolutely should. 

But the reality is Ohio State’s Columbus campus has close to 49,000 undergraduate students of which 48,800 or so will have zero meaningful contact with Urban Meyer or anyone else on the football staff. His impact is largely secluded to those special few who lead a very different life than the average college student.

But I agree that Coach Meyer and his staff do have a responsibility to help shape the behavior of the student athletes they lead. I just feel that saying it’s the University’s mission to prepare them for adult life is an oversimplification and hyperbole. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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QBYBuckeye's picture

Urban and Gene have responsibilities, but so do others.  I don't see Urban and Gene ducking their responsibilities.  In fact I see Gene stepping in during the Q&A to give Urban a chance to digest a question - and I see Urban avoiding opportunities to become defensive.  Those are two good people who may have had some blind spots and made some questionable judgements, but every indication is that they are contrite and will learn from the situation.

I don't think the University President should be called on the carpet for every misdeed of every University Professor or staff member.  Adults are expected to behave with maturity and honor and when they don't - like Zach Smith - sometimes it is difficult to fathom.

New York Buckeye

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BornAndBredABuckeye's picture

For me, I see that there are two sides to this whole thing but only one truth: 1: Zach Smith was a terrible employee or 2: Zach Smith was a terrible employee that also roughed up with wife.
I think we need to know the truth to the DV allegations. Urban deserves the suspension because he let ZS slide way too often since he is Earle's grandson. Does Urban deserves to be crucified by the media the way he is? If the DV allegations are true, then probably. If the DV allegations are not true, then hell no he doesn't. I feel we just need to know the truth behind the story that started this thing off.

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NYWoodyFan's picture

I’d like to see an Ombudsmen-like evaluation of the responsibility of media members in covering allegations of domestic abuse. Also in reporting accusations, how does one report on the credibility of the accuser in a professional way, without engaging in victim shaming?

Furthermore, what reporters at what media institutions were aware of Tom Herman’s and Zack Smith’s bro culture recruiting trips? If they had spent OSU per diem cash, this would be clear violation of any number of strictures from NCAA to University policies. When Meyer found out about it, both men should have been read the riot act at a minimum—but what if any other violations does this represent?

one doesn’t have to look too far to see why 2015 was a train wreck of failed potential. Was any media outlet aware of the poor behavior going on behind the scenes that Impacted team performance? 

Matt

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WestsideCincy's picture

Urban was asking people near him how to delete text messages

Ramzy,

I don't think that is true, but I would welcome correction.  I think Voltolini initiated such a discussion.  And we don't know that Urban acted on it or if his phone was already on such a setting.  And if he did act to delete text messages, it could have been for countless other reasons.  I just don't think we should pull a Bert McMuckraker here and read further into this than the data allows.  It looks bad, but it doesn't have to be bad.

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Johnny Ginter's picture

I think Voltolini initiated such a discussion. 

serious question, because i've seen people say this a lot, why do you believe this? personally i think that either one of them could've initiated the convo about that, but i'm curious to hear your side of it.

RedhawkCIA's picture

I got that impression as I initially read the following from the 11W summary of the findings:

Following Brett McMurphy’s report on Aug. 1 that suggested Meyer was aware of the domestic violence allegations made against Zach Smith in 2015, Voltolini had a conversation with Meyer on the practice field in which they “specifically discussed how to adjust the settings on Meyer’s phone so that text messages older than one year would be deleted.”

I'm pretty dumb when it comes to grammar and reading comprehension, but reading "Vololini had a conversation..." initially implied that Voltolini started the conversation.  Re-reading this, however, I'm not so sure that is the correct take.

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RedhawkCIA's picture

Alright, so here is the exact language from the report:

Upon seeing this report when it first came out (at about 10:17 a.m.), Brian Voltolini, who was on the practice field with Coach Meyer went to speak with him, commenting that this was “a bad article.” The two discussed at that time whether the media could get access to Coach Meyer’s phone, and specifically discussed how to adjust the settings on Meyer’s phone so that text messages older than one year would be deleted. 

There's no indication based on this summary who brought up the phone.  Only that Voltolini initiated a conversation with Meyer about the article.

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WestsideCincy's picture

why do you believe this?

Johnny - I'm pretty sure this was the explanation that Kyle Lamb gave on his podcast.

either one of them could've initiated the convo about that

As RedhawkCIA points out (Thank you!), the language is ambiguous.  I'm wrong to have assumed that Voltolini instigated the erasure of text messages.  But Ramzy is also wrong to make Meyer out to be the instigator, as if he was going all around the practice field asking anyone who'd listen how he could erase his phone.  Common sense would suggest that the younger of the two (Voltolini, I assume?), who initiated the conversation about the "bad news," would have been prepared to suggest the deletion of old text messages.  I have a hard time imagining that Urban would even be aware of such settings.

Thanks for your follow up, gents

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Johnny Ginter's picture

Johnny - I'm pretty sure this was the explanation that Kyle Lamb gave on his podcast.

ah.

Icouldnotgofor3's picture

"And Urban admitted at the press conference his loyalty to Earle Bruce had him compromised from the outset."

This is all that needs to said and is the bottom line. I hope UFM has learned a valuable lesson and I truly believe he has.

Saban on a cart eating cold pizza

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Zeke85's picture

I will admit I didnt read the whole roundtable because I lost interest in same tired, and like others have said, self righteous garbage that is all over this site...and I will name names. I read Ramzy's response to the first question, closed the page and went and read better articles from Kyle Lamb and On Bucknuts.

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Jdadams01's picture

Ramzy is a sharp guy and he clearly believes it. I don't always agree with him, but I appreciate that I know exactly what he thinks about a topic. I also know going into anything he writes that it is going to be an opinion piece and nothing else. He does not report news, he comments on it. His delivery doesn't always win the hearts and minds of every reader, but if you go into a Ramzy piece with the understanding that it's okay to disagree with him, you'll appreciate his intelligence and honesty for what it is. 

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Facemeat2's picture

Contrary to popular belief, Urban Meyer is not the all knowing, all seeing God that he is apparently expected to be. Men in positions of power delegate responsibility to others, they do not baby sit.

Should he have known Zach was ordering sex toys? No. Is it any of his business? No.

Should he have known Zach was behind on his credit care and phone bills? No. Is it any of his business? No.

Should he have known about ALLEGATIONS against Zach Smith? Yes. Did he? Yes. Did his superiors know? Yes. Did the police know? Yes. Were there charges filed? No. WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT HIM TO DO? He is still tasked with taking your beloved Buckeyes to the promised land, and I’m sure keenly aware that his employment is contingent on beating Michigan. Should he baby sit GROWN men or meet your demands? 

Did urban erase texts? We don’t know. We know that he asked how to. Do we know what information those texts contained? No. Are you jumping to conclusions about what those texts contained? Yes and in that regard, you’re as guilty as Mcmurphy.

i understand that this 11w panel consists of only the most moral of deities who have never done wrong, but such perfection only obstructs their ability to see how we mere mortals actually live 

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Fatpants's picture

Things I do via text:

-complain about work

-vent to close friends when my wife drives me nuts

-write things i wouldn't want my family to read

-other things I consider private

Would I delete those if I thought someone was thinking about coming to look at my phone and the texts could eventually be made public? Abso-fucking-lutely.

PG <3 PG

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Jumar's picture

WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT HIM TO DO? 

Smith should have been fired long ago for not showing up to recruiting visits, lying about it, and making it rain at strip clubs with high school coaches. Urban clearly knew about those things and kept Smith on longer than he should have. To me, this is not something that Urban should be fired for unlike most in the media think.

As far as the ZS/CS garbage, who knows what is really true. They are for sure both at fault, both drunks (per some reports) and both made stupid decisions. The truth lies somewhere in the middle and the full truth will never come out.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I think Coach Meyer got caught up in trying to fight the Zach Smith garbage can fires one at a time, and failed to realize the entire WHAC was burning down around him.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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buckeyemike 45's picture

this case is still under investigation. I hate it when opinions are made before all the facts are in... every body but the pope has given a view on this matter. let the courts find out the facts that are facts....       

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.

         - Marcus Aurelius

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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ShavenMonkey's picture

Sounds as if you guys are under the impression that "DV" is more than a legal term and is something that should be the focus of a new scientific field of study. It's not that clear cut and there's no way a university is set up to determine guilt or innocence in the event that allegations arise. Unfortunately, there are really people out there who are willing to lie about it in order to further their own personal agenda. The police didn't see enough evidence to arrest and charge zach so what was the football program supposed to do? Suspend him until the police have time to investigate again, just to make sure they didn't miss something the first time? There are alot of people close to that situation who were under the absolute assumption that Courtney was lying and that belief was formed, in part, due to the actual police department not finding her claims credible enough to do anything about it. If you want to believe that he should have been fired for strip club adventures or poor performance issues then I'm with ya. As far as pretending that that the head football coach was enabling a man to beat his wife - that's bullshit.

The browns suck and always will. Baker is a huge douche too. May a drunken mod edit this signature because it hurts his butt

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Yamosu's picture

Appreciate Ramzy's comments on this matter. I don't accept this "Meyer told his boss". Meyer has unlimited power to do as he pleases in regards to his staff. He chose to keep him around and passed the buck after being informed of many incidents. I don't care what your position or role in life is, everyone who is in a position of power to prevent domestic violence should do something. The results of the investigation show me someone who ducked his head in the sand and tried to let others own the responsibility. Meyer has too much influence, compensation and visibility to be allowed to respond in this way.  I am embarrassed by the way our university and many in the community have responded. Make a joke about McMurphy not deserving to live, 50 upvotes. Come to the defense of a victim of domestic violence, 10 down votes. 

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cdubs's picture

Great discussion, thanks for having it. Disappointed by the reaction many in this community and elsewhere as Yamosu just said.

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Zeke85's picture

Facemeat2 sums it up well. Everyone is quick to jump on the morality of all of this. I go back to the 2 questions that the committee was tasked with investigating. Did OSU cover up domestic violence and did Urban Meyer lie at media days to continue to cover it up. The answer to both of those questions from the committee was no. So he was suspended for bad morals for keeping Zach Smith around.

So now we have round tables to discuss what should have happened because everyone has to act like Urban keeping him on staff with no charges and for being late on some credit cards, sex toys being ordered, an affair, and spending $600 at a strip club. I guarantee you other assistants at top programs, who by the way, work 80 hour plus weeks, are doing the same things...hell head coaches do. Ask Bobby Petrino.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I guarantee you other assistants at top programs, who by the way, work 80 hour plus weeks, are doing the same things...hell head coaches do. Ask Bobby Petrino.

And we all blast them for doing it when it becomes public.  "Whataboutism" is the worst defense ever.  Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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NYWoodyFan's picture

There’s more to ethics than following policy to the letter. In all honesty, policies are put in place with lawyers oversight in order to protect institutions from legal liability, with victim’s well-being a second mandate.

if you want to draw REAL lessons from this, it’s about how laws and legalistic processes fail victims. In 2009, no charges were filed after an arrest. In 2013, an OVI resulted in no one at Ohio State being notified, WTF! In 2015, no charges were filed, and notifications to Ohio State resulted in no mandated action. 

Furthermore, no one has explained how firing Zach Smith would have benefited his children or even his marriage. 

What do we do with someone who committed domestic violence after the first time? Sure, it’s institutionally  safe to fire that individual. That then puts the entire onus on the victim to instigate a process that deprives their guilty spouse of any chance of redemption. What if the victim escalated or instigated an incident? What if they love the abuser and want real help to save their marriage? What if they want their children’s father to keep his career? 

This righteous rush to judgment is the opposite of what a liberal education should embrace, which is to consider complexity, humanity, and the tragedy of intentions. 

I could easily argue that the best outcome for Zach and Courtney and their children would have involved keeping him employed while they underwent intensive private counseling, prefatory to either an improved monogamous marriage, or a rational divorce. The worst outcome was Zach losing his career and dragging his children through a damaging media shit storm, along with all the tertiary damage to Ohio State. 

Given the best outcome that the Meyer’s at times seemed to pursue , we none-the-less got the worst outcome. That’s the tragic story here. Placing Courtney Smith in a dilemma where she had to charge her husband with a crime and get him fired in order to get help, thereby destroying him and stigmatizing her children, is another piece of the tragic story.

Here’s what is not the story: Football factory covers up domestic abuse to win games. Or, golly gosh, if we’d only followed the university policies everything would have worked out. 

What I’ve begun to believe—and it’s almost impossible to say out loud publicly —is that if we are going to deal with domestic marital violence then we have to get the abusers a mandatory path to counseling on the first accusation, a process  that empowers the victim without destroying everyone’s lives in the process. Upon completion of successful counseling, that charge disappears from any public record UNLESS a second incident occurs. 

Police need other options besides arrest and no arrest—why can’t they issue court citation that ultimately requires domestic counseling? 

Matt

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Fatpants's picture

Meyer has been publicly shamed, suspended, monetarily impacted. He will have been away from his team for a month once he returns. His reputational damage is greater than any additional suspension.

I would assume his hesitance to fire Zach had less to do with disappointing Earle and more to do with what happens to his mentor's grandson (the addict with a toxic home life) once he gets fired from his dream job.

Sitting here calling for a greater punishment for the guy that thought he was doing the "right" thing by keeping Zach where he could see him and pushing him towards help seems kind of harsh. Zach, who we can all agree is troubled, dropped a giant shitburger on Meyer's plate. Let's not forget that without some dubious abuse claims, none of this is an issue.

PG <3 PG

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SilverState's picture

Well said, FP.

"There's still some green showing before you see the chalk."

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TheBadOwl's picture

 His reputational damage is greater than any additional suspension.

That reputational damage is amplified if the perception is that he got off with a slap on the wrist and his overall demeanor at the press conference. Regardless of what he did in the past, his behavior in the last few days could have shifted the narrative to a significantly more positive place.

Instead of 'Urban Meyer gracefully accepted a six-game suspension, donated a portion of his salary to charity, apologized to domestic violence victims everywhere and vowed to educate himself and those in his program on the nuances of this issue' the story is 'Urban stoically read a prepared statement, didn't directly apologize to domestic violence victims and won't miss any meaningful in-conference games.' 

I'd argue that Urban should have been far more contrite. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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Fatpants's picture

Why would he apologize to dv victims? He doesn’t believe the claims. Nobody close to the situation believes them. There’s no way Meyer wasn’t thoroughly prepped for that press conference, and one of the last thing the university wanted to do there was give ammunition to attorneys by apologizing for something that didn’t happen. 

PG <3 PG

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TheBadOwl's picture

He says he took Zach Smith's denials at face value – instead, he should have (as Ramzy said) put Zach on administrative leave so that the issue could be investigated. Regardless of whether or not Courtney was abused, many abuse victims deal with their accusers' denials to people within their social circles being taken at face value, making it tougher to find support when leaving those relationships.

Saying "I took the denial of a domestic abuse allegation at face value because it was coming from a friend, rather than following our processes, and that is a mistake all too common in these situations; for that, I apologize to victims everywhere" would have gone a long way towards healing his reputation in the aftermath of this. 

When I walked in this morning and saw the flag was at half mast I thought, "Alright, another bureaucrat ate it." but then I saw it was Li'l Sebastian. Half mast is too high. Show some damn respect.

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Fatpants's picture

I think Zach's denial is one factor, definitely not the only factor, that lead EVERYONE close to the situation to not believe her claims.

That blanket apology is disingenuous and somewhat patronizing. Do the investigators have to apologize next for not saying they found her claims to be credible?

PG <3 PG

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SilverHaven's picture

Yeah, Fatpants, what are you thinking?!

Urban should be thankful for getting only half of the deserved suspension without pay, and donate the money he did not receive to charity.

And lastly, Urban should be more contrite, express remorse and ask for leniency for being kicked to the curb.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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bbb's picture

My support for 11W could not be stronger after this post. This is not a "homer" site; it is introspective and has good takes. The same of course cannot be said about everyone who reads this site regularly

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jdoncbus's picture

I graduated from Ohio State in 97 and have been messing around on Ohio State websites since the dawn of the web. I think much of what you claim as "homering" is more generational. 11W is the younger crowd while other sites that have been around a while are not.

Personally, I feel journalism has become all about op-ed pieces, "gotcha" reporting, and driven by social media mob "justice" in order to show your readers that you care and are morally (whatever is defined as "moral" at the given moment) sound. 

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NYWoodyFan's picture

Another enormous problem involved is how to protect real domestic violence victims in a world where false accusers are given so much uncritical media attention.

Matt

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elitesmithie's picture

Honest Question. Would anyone want the media to parse every single text, email, etc? Every fight you have with your spouse, off color remark to a friend, things taken out of context etc?

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Johnny Ginter's picture

another cool thing about being a public employee: all of my communications can be subpoenaed, which means that every text, picture, email, etc. on my personal phone (since I use it to do work) can be used as evidence in an investigation. this is SOP

AltaBuck's picture

Do we know what the retention policy is for tOSU employees for electronic communications, specifically text messaging? If UM did not violate policy, I'm fine with what he did.

“A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone.” - Tyrion Lannister

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Milk Steak To Go's picture

If it follows general records retention policies, 6 months.

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wigmon's picture

On that subject.  I've not heard an answer to the question of what legal/contractual requirements Meyer had to keep texting history and for how long.  Anyone got a clue on that?  I get the feeling that the conversation about texting history (and cleaning it up) involved how long he was required to keep texts. 

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Johnny_fing_utah's picture

I read most of the round table, but had to stop because 3 weeks into this mess and all the criticisms of Meyer regarding DV, and no one can specifically say what he should have done differently from a moral, or legal standpoint.  It’s maddening.  I get that he is the highest paid person, yada yada.  His boss, police, coordinator, knew about allocations and issues.  Should he interview the victim, setup his own personal investigative team, and judicial system?  Should he fire someone based only on allegations?  Is that the world you want to live in?  Maybe I missed it and the argument is simply he should have never hired him.  But that is easy to say now, thank Captain Hindsight! 

And if that is the argument, then he should have fired him in Florida and ruined his career, leaving him his pregnant wife with no job prospects when she claimed no abuse at the time.  Courtney Smith would have been filed a lawsuit with her husband for wrongful termination immediately - no doubt.  How’s that for irony?

And the text messages deleting is concerning but also not enough is known to discuss, as the report is unclear anything more than a discussion had occurred.  The fact is there is no cover-up because Meyer admits to knowing the allegations at that time frame, so deleting messages about something he admits to is pointless unless we find more details on this piece of the story.

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armyvet83's picture

I have been married for 29 years and have four kids (three of them daughters). Never once raised my hand to my wife and never will. I have discussed with each kid the dynamics of relationships to include DV (Including their significant other). What pisses me off is how people that are not married, never been in a position of leadership, do not have the professional expertise in counseling, and (hopefully) lacks the personal experience of domestic issues, can sit back and talk about what Urban did or did not do as it relates to DV.

MODS- My question to you is, "Are the personnel on this blog experts on DV?" Are they in-the-know about every single event that transpired? Do they personally know all individuals involved? If the answer is "NO", they are no better than the national media that is trying to crucify parties that made some mistakes.

No matter what the University did to Urban Meyer, the media would never be happy even if they fired him. Then the University would be attacked. The media is no longer happy with simply reporting FACTS. It is all conjecture, rumors and opinions. I call it irresponsible. I could get more accurate and factual information from a room full of drunks at the local bar.

I had a long drawn out spiel but deleted it. The bottom line is: The people (the people who had led this discussion) give the appearance of being infallible and generally self-righteous (like the rest of the national media). Ban me if you will but I am embarrassed by the "experienced insight of this expert panel."

There you go, you got my click. Pathetic!

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Das Hufeisen's picture

Well said.  I especially agreed with this part:

No matter what the University did to Urban Meyer, the media would never be happy even if they fired him. Then the University would be attacked. The media is no longer happy with simply reporting FACTS. It is all conjecture, rumors and opinions. I call it irresponsible. I could get more accurate and factual information from a room full of drunks at the local bar.

This is why many of us question the validity of reports "that we don't like" (as Ramzy stated).  Urban could've been publicly flogged after being fired and the media would still rail on.

AKA the Horseshoe, the Shoe, and the House That Harley Built

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

MODS- My question to you is, "Are the personnel on this blog experts on DV?" Are they in-the-know about every single event that transpired? Do they personally know all individuals involved? If the answer is "NO", they are no better than the national media that is trying to crucify parties that made some mistakes.

I'll go ahead and jump on this one for the Mods - none of us claim to answer "Yes" to any of those questions.  But I don't believe we're the ones you really want to address those questions to.  We're just a bunch of dudes who spend too much time on the site and have been granted the (very limited) authority to edit/delete comments that are outside the site's commenting policy and impose temporary bans for users who break the rules or are particular jackasses.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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andretolstoy's picture

The crazy thing is that I read the report a couple of times and I still feel like I do not  know the entire story. How are people making educated suggestions and analysis on this? To me, there is no other way to do it in light of the lack of complete information than to use innate stereotypes and preconceived notions about guilt and circumstance. I mean, if some here claims to know for a fact that Zach committed DV they're either lying or know something the rest of the general public (including Ohio State) do not. And I don't want to hear another... "you've got to be naive ..." or "he had to have ..." 

Having said this. I like the notion of Meyer having help with staff and team. I have said it before. He needs a full time chaplain or two that aren't motivational speakers but actual pastoral aides. 

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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Buckaroo Banzai's picture

By continuing to focus on unproven allegations of domestic violence, and thereby making domestic violence the sole issue that drives the narrative, everyone ignores other very serious civil rights/employment law implications here.

I am not saying that no abuse occurred or that there was not sufficient evidence to raise the specter of abuse here. The fact is, I don't know, because I don't have all the relevant and probative evidence to make any judgment, save for an ignorant one. As well, I am not saying that domestic violence should not be a core part of this narrative. My point is that it is folly to ignore the other serious legal considerations at play in situations such as this.

Regardless of whether Title IX applied to this fact pattern, and it did not, Title VII inarguably applies to the university as regards its employment policies and practices. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission frowns mightily on otherwise facially neutral policies and procedures that countenance the taking of adverse employment actions based solely upon an arrest, much less the making of allegations that resulted in no arrest.

Now, while Mr. Smith would not himself have a private cause of action under Title VII (because he is not a member of any protected class under Title VII), that is of no consequence if the EEOC commences an investigation and review of OSU's policies and procedures and determines that they could have a disparate or disproportionate impact upon employees who are within any of the classes protected by the Act.

And as for the bandwagon jumping, piling on media, including especially Ms. Dinich and Mr. Finebaum, well I just cannot say everything that should be said here. I will say that I find it offensive that their editorializing presupposes facts that have yet to be established. Such positions are logically invalid from the inception. I find it offensive that they assert their positions with such authority when they know no more than I do, and in matters of law, significantly less. I question what training and experience they possess that qualifies them to pontificate so "authoritatively" on what Coach Meyer, AD Smith and the university should have done.

Bobbing for french fries.

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andretolstoy's picture

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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FLBuckeyeRick's picture

My 2 cents: Urban got what he deserved for giving ZS too many chances. 3 games for UFM and 3 weeks pay for Smith shows that OSU takes it seriously and didn't "sweep it under the rug." 

Let's get on with the season.

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shiloh's picture

Re: What should have happened? must reiterate my post in a previous 11w thread: "Women and children are starving in Biafra and Bangladesh so let's start a discussion group!"

Bottom line if Urban thought ZS was beating his wife he would have been fired on the spot! You can only help people who ((( want ))) to be helped within the confines of your job description and personal friendship. In the eyes of many it's never enough especially if your university is always in the media spotlight and a certain sportswriter hates said university and has a hard-on for the university's head football coach. And writes a one-sided opinion piece against said university because of his personal hatred.

The media's overwhelmingly biased opinion(s) re: all facets of that university notwithstanding.

Again, where was/were CS's friends and family during all of this strenuous ordeal??? Why do they get a pass? This was an ongoing personal problem over a (9) year period between a married couple who both have the emotional maturity of grade school kids. If it ever got to the stage of critical mass ie injuries beyond the pale the police would have intervened. Her iphone injury pics were/are consistent of a husband trying to restrain his wife who is trying to ((( attack ))) him.

Personal accountability!

Personal accountability!

Personal accountability!

Did I mention personal accountability ???

Yielding back the balance of my time ...

>

Apologies to grade school kids!

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain

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What Would Troy Smith Do's picture

I agree with this.  Pretty sure that's obvious from my posts.

The hiring and subsequent managing of Smith was absolutely terrible.

The DV stuff is the headline grabber but this relationship was much too complex for the way it was simplified down by the media.  Other than not firing Zach, Urban is not guilty of the cover up of DV.

The hand wringing on this by media types was beyond irresponsible.  McMurphy takes a legit story and yellow journalism's his way into the national spotlight.  His handling of the story was atrocious.

I've changed on the compliance reporting because as I understand it the Title IX office is part of the compliance office and they were the ones that notified the AD and Urban of the issue.  This seems a false flag operation by the committee to find an infraction here. 

Urban still deserved more than a 3 game suspension.  6 games or a full year would be better.  While I believe he was trying to help Zach due to his soft spot towards him I am highly concerned that it sure appears that he doesn't think he anything wrong.  I can see why he did what he did but in hindsight he should have some clarity and that doesn't appear to be happening.

OSU's PR handling sucks.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Title IX office is part of the compliance office and they were the ones that notified the AD and Urban of the issue. 

This is a misnomer, WWTSD. 

Miechelle Willis, the individual who informed Gene Smith about the 2105 incident, was the Deputy Title IX Coordinator for the Athletics Department.  She actually works for Gene Smith in the Athletic Department, not the larger Title IX office in the Office of University Compliance and Integrity.

So the truth is the information never left OSU Athletics and was not provided to the university's Title IX office.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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What Would Troy Smith Do's picture

Ok.  Best explanation I've heard so far. 

I'm back to my original position after reading the report:  The lack of communication to compliance should be taken into account for the punishment.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Agree. I was always told “if there’s any doubt, there is no doubt - tell somebody above your paygrade.” 

If there was any question at all in their minds whether this should’ve been reported to compliance, then they should’ve asked the compliance office, “Do we need to report this?” If the answer is “no”, get it in writing to cover your ass. If it’s “yes”, report his ass. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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fear_the_nut70's picture

11W Staff, this is an excellent discussion of the issue.

Since the decision has come down, I have found myself getting frustrated with what I refer to as the bottom 15% of the fanbase, often firing back at them.  I'm not going to do that anymore, in part because I desperately want to move onto actual football, but in part because I think I just need to accept that there will always be a portion of people that just don't get it.

I remember all the people that fired back at the JoePa apologists because they refused to see any wrong doing on his part (and before people go off, no, what happened here isn't anywhere as bad and there are many factual differences).  For some, the problem was that PSU was putting football before human beings, as if wins and losses and protecting an icon were all that mattered.  I do not have any intention of tolerating that at Ohio State just because this is my school!!

 I have since checked to see what others are saying, including our rivals, and it is apparent to me that many were taking a sanctimonious tone simply because they hate Ohio State and want to see the program suffer.  I say this, not because their conclusions were necessarily wrong, but because there was no analysis, no command of the facts.  I really believe that the people on our side who advocated no punishment, Fire Drake, this is a travesty, are just as bad. 

I don 't think there is one sensible person who could read that report and not be concerned about the actions of Meyer and Gene Smith.  How was the 2009 incident not brought to the school's attention when Zach was hired?  Why was Zach not formally written up in 2015 and immediately put on administrative leave?  Why was he not fired when Gene Smith suggested it?  Or when he was delinquent in his job duties?  How could Urban not know that he was having sex in the WHAC with a staffer and getting sex toys sent there?  Why was Urban asking how to delete message longer than 1 year from his phone (and what would we say about that fact if it was Harbaugh or someone else doing that?)?  Is Urban really that out of touch with his program?

I really believe that large swatches of our population don't understand domestic violence, and because it makes them uncomfortable, don't really want to talk about it in an honest way in public forums.  I got so tired of everyone that only wanted to make this about what Courtney did or did not do, or what the police did or did not do, ignoring protocols put in place by an organization that is first and foremost an institution of higher learning. Meyer and Smith and people who have positions like that will always have responsibilities that are commensurate with this reality, and doing the bare minimum is simply not enough.

I don't know if three games was enough (or that it isn't), and I am glad coach is still with us.  I hope lessons have been learned and these mistakes are not repeated going forward.  I hope that behaviors like those demonstrated by Zach Smith, that embarrassed this great university, won't be tolerated going forward.  And I hope that both Zach and Courtney get past this and move on with their respective lives in a healthy and constructive fashion. 

To the staff, thank you for being a sanctuary these last 3 weeks as I tuned out the outside noise of a media more interested in a sanctimonious lynching than journalist integrity based on a command of the facts.  I learned from Tatgate not to let haters and trolls and a entertainment media concerned only with viewers and clicks to make me miserable, and this place was where I came for all of my information. 

Thank you.  On to football now.

You are entitled to you own opinion, not your own facts.

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t-dub's picture

you can just put my name at the bottom of this,  #MyThoughtsAsWell

"What is our aim, I can tell you in one word. Victory" Winston Churchill

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Kalmar's picture

It seems like people want the punishment to be 3 or 4 LOSSES for Ohio State.

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t-dub's picture

I was worried to read the article, I thought what good can come from this (reading it.)

I posted this earlier but I will restate it, I have both lived through DV (against my mother when I was a child) and have been responsible for dealing with DV (as a leader in the military) from men and women.  I have also had to deal with suicide that resulted from actions taken in a DV case.  All that being said, all that this equips me to know is that DV is messy and complicated.  Even a SME has shortcomings and blind spots in something so twisted.

1) A high performing organization has to be self critical. Operators at almost every level and elite operators in particular gladly face harsh critiques on performance and decision making because they know it is a must for getting better.  It also builds trust.

2) Even with the UCMJ and investigative resources it was not always clear to me who was fault or where the truth could be found. It is just tough, but that leads to my next point.

3) As a leader you cant do everything, in fact you should not do everything.  But you have to do something of substance. Hold people accountable, refer, replace, remove, train, something.  

4) In and of itself loyalty is a great thing. However, there is the potential to try and do the right thing but be distracted/misled by loyalty.  In incident investigation there is a whole category of human factors that contribute to incidents and misplaced or inflated loyalty (even if it is a situation where loyalty is expected.)  

My last thought (not like anyone is still reading).  One of the aspects of leadership is:  Taking all of the blame and Giving away all the credit.  I, admittedly, have not read the report cover to cover, but I have not seen this addressed.  So my question is; what did Drake know and when?  How was the President's actions viewed and validated?  Surely he has some culpability here, the Athletic Dept. are not contractors, they are part of the the organization He leads.   

"What is our aim, I can tell you in one word. Victory" Winston Churchill

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bobsegersilverbulletband's picture

Looks like the hometown journalists are part of the witch hunt. Bottom line here imo, is that this is a complicated situation and I have come to the conclusion the end result was justified. This isn't a black and white case where Urban completely ignored a proven incident(s) of domestic violence. There is a lot of grey here and to completely ignore those shades or to summarily dismiss Urban and Gene Smith are equally bad. Mistakes were made by many involved. Punishment has been dished out. I believe that Urban and Gene Smith learned a lesson or two and will not repeat their mistakes. I hope that someday the media will get off their high horses and let the story go.  

Bobcat66

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Dillon G's picture

In the context of what the investigation found, focusing on the lack of formal charges to make a move completely misses the plot.

Well, no. It is the main point. ZS was fired, with minimal information, as it came to light. She is bearing false witness for the purpose of tearing ZS and Urban Meyer down. Some just don't accept it. 

#walkaway

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andretolstoy's picture

Actually the main point is that we all actually don't know. Everything on our end is based on allegation and what we think or liked to know. Some of us made up our minds as conditioned by the ideology we like to follow. 

So, she may be bearing false witness, or she may be telling the truth. The way information is disseminated these days, we may never know the entire truth. And we should be ok with it. 

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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Dillon G's picture

The staff knew of the conflict. ZS, unless I heard it wrong in the presser, was fired for not reporting his fuck(actually his shitty personality) to Meyer.

Meyer was suspend because of McMurphy's slander. The investifation revealed Meyer was not watching the dog close enough because of his feeling for Earl Bruce.

Everything else is people's BS. 

#walkaway

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Bamabucknut's picture

[Comment removed for violating the site's commenting policy.]

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bbb's picture

HAHAHHA WHAT are you talking about

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NGBuck21's picture

is coping with the idea that there isn't always going to be a clear good guy and bad guy.

So much this. I cannot express how much it seems this is lost on people in these situations. I have personally dealt with instances between myself, exes, and my current wife with these types of issues. Thankfully, for both parties sake, it was not to this extreme and the cops were never called. My current wife's family had to get involved at times during the first 2-3 years of our relationship when we were younger. These situations are messy and people need to hear all sides. This is not black and white as much as people what it to be that way. In fact, a lot of things in life aren't black and white even though people want them to be. Took me forever to learn that. 

I would even venture to say there are just "bad guys" in this these situations a lot of times. There could be maturity issues, possible mental health issues, and many other factors that go into this stuff. People who immediately jump to the accusers defense or those who jump to the accussed are both wrong in my opinion. However, I agree, there are absolute animals out there and those cases are pretty cut and dry I believe. This one is not and although it went to extremes and continually seemed to get worse, I think both parties are guilty to some extent in all this. So if you immediately gravitate toward either party in this situation and think one is right and one is wrong that is hard stance to justify. Yes one might be more of the aggressor but that does not excuse the others behavior.

This situation seemed to get to the point where these two individuals might need to hit rock bottom to correct their issues. I truly think both parties are most likely guilty and they both need to self reflect and evaluate themselves. They need help recognizing their flaws and getting the help they need so they can coexist peacefully. They can't just be done with each other as there are kids involved.

In my specific case with my current wife I honestly believe it was maturity in regards to both of us. I had a temper as does she and to compound that she had (still has) anxiety and depression issues. Combine anxiety, depression, tempers and when heated arguments start to get loud a whirlwind of shit just occurs and we were in the middle of situations we both felt terrible about afterwards. But between her family and with us recognizing things we fought through that and I believe we are as strong as anyone. We had help pin pointing our issues and getting past that stuff. She was not taking any medication then and now is and we continually work on ways where she does not have to rely on that anymore. I essentially had to learn how to dissipate my anger in more productive ways. That takes work and recognizing your faults. And those are things you need to work on everyday (at least for us). 

And to be clear just because Zach was not arrested and charged does not clear him of being an asshole or being wrong in his relationship in regards to Courtney. Zach admitted he would absolutely antagonize her and I did the same thing. In my case I was immature and what do you think that does do an anxiety ridden person who is dealing with things in her own head? Courtney very well could have issues similar to that and Zach was in no way helping the situation by antagonizing, cheating, and essentially being entitled.

My wife never called the police nor did I and we never were arrested and charged. We worked past it have gotten to a great place. But believe me if she wanted to be vindictive and call them I very easily could have been. There were red marks just as Courtney displayed. However, sometimes my wife was the one to take it to that point. But just because she took it there did not make me innocent. I guess my point is be better. If she initiates it, be better. If he initiates it, be better. Learn to walk away and figure out your triggers. A support system is needed for couples in these situations who do not have the family I have.

I don't throw away Courtney even though she very well may be lying and putting people in a bad situation. Same goes for Zach if he indeed took it to far. They both very well deserve punishment if the courts find her to be lying and same for him if he took it too far and physically hurt her. They both need HELP though. And if substance abuse is part of this that compounds the problem. Both very well might have some good about them still. I just hate seeing a society that trashes people that need help. Yes there are very much bad apples that just could be flat out rotten. However, in this case, I see terrible decision making, immaturity, and very well a possibility of mental illnesses. And how great would it be if we can stop taking sides, let these people be punished if the courts/police deem it necessary, and help provide support and pull them out of their self destructive tendencies. Not only for themselves, but for their kids as well.

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Johnny Ginter's picture

thanks for your comment man.

SilverState's picture

"There's still some green showing before you see the chalk."

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MaineStrength's picture

Without being able to change what Meyer said at B1G media days this is what OSU's response should have been post-investigation (giving the investigation report to the media ahead of time that night and holding the press conference the following morning).

We have found that coach Meyer has been disingenuous with his comments at Big Ten Media Days and with his knowledge about Coach Smith's behavior.  He mis-managed his duties as a manager by hiring and retaining an employee who's behavior did not warrant  a person in his position.  Meyer made many mistakes in dealing with Mr. Smith as his employee due in large part to his loyalty to Earle Bruce, Zach's grandfather.  However, we do not believe this is a systematic problem for Meyer and appears to be isolated to this one individual.  For this we have decided to suspend Coach Meyer for 3 games.  Although some may see his offenses as fireable and undoubtedly many will question our decision, Urban has proved to be a highly successful coach and has managed the vast majority of his employees well.  We do not believe his transgressions in dealing with Mr. Smith warrant firing him.

That would be an honest and straightforward statement that I think most people would accept without a ton of backlash and would be much easier to move on from.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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SilverHaven's picture

Maine, may I sincerely recommend a different PR firm? 
First, don't issue the report the night before and give reporters the evening and night to produce their own reports, angles and slants before you can tell your story in context at your press conf the following morning.
Second, don't... oh forget it.  Just get a new PR firm.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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MaineStrength's picture

I do have a degree in communications with a concentration in PR, amongst others. :)

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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SilverHaven's picture

Best wishes to you then. Aloha.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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MaineStrength's picture

Luckily I went back to school & got a master's degree in exercise science :)  My point was in PR you never want to take a small story and turn it into a bigger one.  You own the mistake, give the information, & make necessary changes.  This is what allows you to get past the mistake quickly.  The worst you can do is deny, make excuses, or hide information.  Mahalo :)

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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JNRBUCKEYE's picture

Who cares what ESPN thinks lmao I just deleted their WORTHLESS app

GO BUCKEYES!!!

JNRBUCKEYE

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lax20's picture

I am laughing while the CNN of the sports media aka... ESPN, heads are exploding because they did not get their way.  Their narrative is killing the network as a sports channel.  Still laughing at these clowns.  BOOHOOHOO.

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buckeyemike 45's picture

charges have to be proven before a conclusion can be made. how many people ever apologized to the duke soccer players, the coach in their rush to judgment. proof is needed before a proper outcome can be made...

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lax20's picture

Actually, it was the Lacrosse team.  Your point was well taken

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grant87's picture

SIAP  Didn't read 300+ postings.

Allison.  People are good or bad by the time they 18.  But you can make them aware of the consequences of breakNo ing the rules.  Coaches are not PARENTS!  NO ONE I know went future to college to learn how to be a good people.  The go to get an education to improve their future or full fill a goal.

The 3 games was for mismanagement.  Only wrong was there was NOT a written record between Gene or Urban to compliance.  Even it was compliance that informed them.  smh  BoT was making up a crime to punish.  They should gone the route Colorado did..in which DV was proven. State:1. Urban did what his contract said was to do.  2.He didn't intentionally misinform anyone at media days.  3.We all agree DV is bad.  Urban states his core values on DV.   And he will donate a month's salary ($600,000) to DV causes.  Then states Zach has had his troubles and I have tried to help him many times as I became aware of them.  I hope he learns his lessons. 

Main stream media wonders why Tressel treated them the way he did post 2004.  Buckle up...Urban may give you some more of that!

What to do about DV claim?  Check it out and record everything.  Be sure if there is a termination it won't become a wrongful termination suit.  This is why Urban was NEVER going to be fired.  If they fired him and Gene knew, $38 million would have been the least of the school's concerns!  Zach was not charged in 2015.  IF Zach get fired for going to a strip club, there better be a progressive discipline record or line in his contract stating as such.  Or Zach could sue.

Maybe tomorrow, when today will be yesterday things will be clearer.

GO BUCKS !!

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Crumb's picture

In this Post-Facts era all I see are people with the broadest platforms getting ready to cast the first stones. Urban Meyer is taking hits on the chin right now because he may have done too much of what the rest of us aren't doing enough of and that is giving other people the benefit of the doubt and trying to help other people. 

"The only good thing about it is winning the d*** thing" - Urban Meyer on The Game The War

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buckeyepastor's picture

I hope for his own sake, Meyer is getting some good counsel on all of this, for the sake of his own well-being.  Because thinking back to his leaving Florida, one of the key issues that he had, maybe THE key issue, was that he was micro-managing areas of the program that are best delegated to others.   And what has happened with Zach Smith, in all these instances where Meyer handled missed meetings and strip clubs and other poor choices on his own, is precisely the sort of thing that brought his health crashing down in 2009 and 2010. 

Urban Meyer has been down this path before.  Sure, the loyalty to Earle Bruce in this case makes it somewhat unique.   But the over-functioning, the isolated, lone-wolf management of a situation where Meyer's best move was sometimes to refer and step away from it, he's done this before.  

"Woody would have wanted it that way" 

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Chargerbuck's picture

Article brings some context to the whole matter-- but hindsight is always 20/20...  The signs were there, beyond the domestic violence aspects...   Urban should have simply fired him for being a cumulative bad actor/high wire act...  but then the question becomes- would OSU have backed the firing, without any arrests or substantive charges?

michael drake is a piece of work (and I am being nice...).

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Sanitarian2's picture

I've never felt comfortable being the personal life police at my place of work and I'm the second highest paid public employee at my place of employment. 

Sani

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bocooney's picture

This is well judged by people who have a natural insulation from any involvement with ANY of the REAL people in this story. Read: I am acting as Urban Meyers Judge/Police. There are hundreds of people involved directly with the Smith saga who did nothing. Police/Family/Neighbors/Friends/Acquaintances, any of whom could/should have taken a more active role. But the Football coach is villified for something he OUGHT to have done while all of the other principals watched and judged.  I have no patience or compassion for domestic abusers. I ALSO have no patience/compassion for people who are willing to ruin the lives of people over one persons say so. THE GODDAMN POLICE DID NOT CHARGE ZACH SMITH. But Urban Meyers life/career should be ruined because he did not do more. He lied. He hesitated to condemn. He got a 3 game suspension. Ok. To continue to vilify him and try to tarnish his life/reputation is nothing more than drummed up righteousness built on a desire to make someone suffer. Please, take a look at yourselves. I can guarantee you will find yourselves lacking if you are honest.

Bo Cooney

IT Buckeye

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SilverHaven's picture

All too true, Bocoo, about any review.
The problem people who failed will find sympathy as victims.  
Those who did nothing will be praised for their wise comments after the fact. 
And the innocents who tried to do something will be found guilty.

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

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40 Degrees North's picture

Earlier in this saga, some folks on here asked about whether some of the folks on this site knew what went on with Zach. A couple of the folks indicated they knew stuff was going on for a long period of time. 

Zach Smith was charged with a DUI and had multiple reports linked to his ex-wife. During that time period, we heard on local news about various arrests for current players, such as J.T. Barrett getting charged with DUI, and former players. One month after Zach’s DUI charge, WBNS reported on Andy Katzenmoyer having domestic issues and being arrested. So we heard about a former player who had not played in 15 years, but not the current assistant coach who was pulling down a 6-figure salary. We hear about the 21-year old who doesn’t get paid for what he does, but we don’t hear about the guy pulling in $340k a year.

What I am getting at here is that the local media failed here. The media claims they are a watchdog. Some of them claim this stuff has been discussed for a while about Zach. Nothing was ever reported. It is incredulous that no one in local media knew about Zach getting a DUI or knew about multiple police reports connected to his then wife. 

A news report in 2013 may have prevented 2015 and 2018. 

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Go1Bucks's picture

This bores me now. Can we please focus on sports?

Go Bucks!

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Buck298's picture

This was not a debate. It was simply a group of people, who already agree with each other, getting together to talk. It is simply an exercise in reinforcing a particular view. 

It also shows how this group has been totally disengaged from their responsibilities. Ramzy tweeted “everyone knew” and about “abuse/drugs/alcohol”. There is no recognition of the lack of investigation by 11W into these matters. 

So yeah, go ahead and pat yourself on the back, when you too turned a blind eye to the issue. 

Send the Earth Reverberating

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buckeyemike 45's picture

lax 20  my bad.. it was lax not soccer. Wow!!  must do a better job of proof reading my posts.

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ScarletNGrey01's picture

Most companies have an HR department which handle these kinds of issues (hiring, firing, harrassment, etc), and they confer with the Legal Staff if necessary.  If a manager ... or any employee ... has reason to believe there is an issue with any other associate in the company they are encouraged to contact the HR department.  They are trained to address these situations.  Universites should use a similar approach.  Urban is a great coach and motivator, and I believe his core values are solid BUT as do most famous people he lives in a bit of a bubble, he is loyal to his people to a fault, and he is arrogant enough to think he can deal with any situation the way he sees fit.

The will to win is not as important as the will to prepare to win. -- Woody Hayes

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johngobuck's picture

Yea but the HR department, title IX, the athletic director, ......   

You bring up a good point.  I hear people saying he should have done more.   Or in your should haven't been so arrogant to try to handle it all himself.   Seems to me there were plenty of people working on it (the police, the AD, title IX, etc...).   

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.    And we don't even know if the allegations are true so lets just say Urban is Damns...   He must feel like John Jay now.

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johngobuck's picture

Glad I didn't pull the trigger and donate to this website yet.   And I won't be.   The whole premise "Hindsight Roundtable" pretty much screams all that is wrong with opinion journalism.    In the same article Urban is blamed both for trying to do too much himself and then doing too little.    Then essentially Ohio State as a University is blamed for doing too much or too little.  It is very easy to sit back on your high seats and judge everyone and speak to what should and shouldn't have happened when you can't even tell me what happened.   It is a free country and we have a free press so people can express their opinions.   But it is laughable to me all these people that come out of the woodwork to pass judgement when on a daily basis can barely report the facts correctly.   If you can't report the facts correctly why should any of us value your opinions at all.     At the end of it the only thing of substances in the discussion was that perhaps Ohio State should have put Zach on leave and started an internal investigations.   But letting someone be tried in the press these days is a terrible thing.  Using fancy words like "Doing more", "Learning more about DV",  "Learning to recognize abuse", just sounds like a cop out.   I didn't read one single thing in this whole discussion that would have helped a domestic abuse victim or Courtney.    Ohio State is an institution of higher education, athletics, etc.  It is not a detective unit, a judicial forum, a legal entity, or marriage counselors.   

Lets just ASSUME she is a victim of abuse.   What can Urban or Ohio State do about that?   Fire Zach.   Well he has been fired.  Is that going to stop him from abusing Courtney in the future?   Is that going to stop Zach from being a dickhead?    I keep hearing people say they should have done more?   What exactly does that mean?   Sorry roundtable but you have not answered that question.   You have only assigned blame to persons who can not control what Zach and/or Courtney do in their private lives.    It is the same as blaming the police.   In fact why aren't you guys blaming the police?     

The answer:    Because they did all they could do.    Not sure what else you would expect Urban to do? Fire Zach...  OK that has been done.   But you still aren't satisfied.   The only thing this article exposed was the hacks that almost all journalist these days are. 

Answer this one question

What could Urban Meyer have done that would have improved Courtney's life that he didn't do?   The only thing I can think of is spoken to her directly himself.  Maybe he did.  But then what?   Fire Zach?   What is lost in this whole discussion is that employers, governments, churches, other organizations, and individuals can only do what they are legally entitled to do.

Urban Meyer was Zach's boss.  Lets examine what Urban is legally allowed to do.  Can he punch him in the face?  nope   Can he put him in jail?  nope.    What can he do.    He could fire him.   He could tell him to do the right thing.   He could tell Courtney to get away from him and or file charges.  

BucknutinNC above does a very good break down of things.   Everyone wants to take every incident and pretend like they happened all in the same week. 

I take issue with almost every statement that Johnny makes in the above roundtable.  To form those kinds of opinions he obviously believes domestic abuse took place.  I think he should immediately submit his findings to the police department so that Courtney can get some justice.   I was going to break down every poorly formed opinion he made but there is no point.  The guy is a lost cause.  

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johngobuck's picture

Last post I'm ever making on this affair. 

My opinion based on what is known is this.   Urban, the police, Ohio State, Gene Smith, title IX, and everyone else who knew about this did what they thought was the best thing to do at the time.  I do not see any ill intent or even negligence.   I don't think they passed the buck.  I think they could have fired Zach due to his myriad of problems sooner than they did.  But I also don't find fault in trying or even hoping he would pull it together.  That is not a crime. 

I don't believe any of us will ever know all the assorted details and things left out of the report.  I also don't think it is any of our business to know all those things.  I trust that Urban, Gene, the police and even Drake are doing the best they can. 

They have now fired Zach which is one of the few legal things they could do short of trying to rehabilitate him which it appears they also tried to do.  I don't believe there is anything else they could do other than telling Courtney to get away from him, which they also appear to have done if you read Shelley Meyer's text empathizing with her even if she was skeptical of her claims.  

The funny thing is this.  I'm willing to bet if Urban had fired Zach in 2015 the press, the hindsight roundtable, and everyone else would still be spewing the same BS.    Because the only argument here seems to be WHEN he should have been fired.   The older I've gotten the more softer I guess I'm getting.  Nobody is perfect.  Things in real life get messy.  It is pretty easy to just cut bait and run from problems.   It is even easier to sit back in your chair and criticize everyone else's failings.   It is much harder to actually do something, to actually try to help someone.   

These days it is getting harder and harder to be the good Samaritan.  No good dead goes unpunished.  I think that is probably the lesson Urban has learned.   And I agree with Johnny on this.  I don't think he cares.   I think he did the best he could at the time and from that perspective all the MEDIA OUTRAGE is unfair.

If you are someone who believes Zach abused her than perhaps you should be blaming Zach and not Urban.  I could care less how much money Urban makes.   He can't control what Zach did or didn't do.

And the thing I find most absurd in all of this.   None of us knows what really happened.   But an awful lot of people are Blaming Urban Meyer for also not knowing.   

Goodbye Eleven Warriors.   I wish you the best of luck.  I can no longer support you with my time or clicks.  If you are going to offer opinions please at least get your facts straight. 

Quote

JOHNNY: To me it just seems fairly clear cut to report any suspected abuse, either by or of an employee or student-athlete, to any of Ohio State's offices that investigate harassment or misconduct, including the Title IX office or HR.

KYLE: Johnny, I agree with that completely, and think that's why Gene Smith deserves his suspension. How does he, as the AD, not know to at least report it? To my and Lori's point, though, what else should someone in that position of power be expected to do?

Now another quote from your own website from Gene's attorney also from eleven warrior website

"But to justify the 500k investigation, you have to find something. The facts established that Gene Smith learned fo the 2015 allegations and immediately pulled Urban off the practice field to inform him and ordered the Assistant back to Columbus not to Ohio State but to go directly to the Powell police to answer their questions.

He then discussed the matter with the Title XI Compliance Official and Public Safety liaison and Human Resources and he ordered OSU police and OSU officials to monitor the Powell investigation. No OSU official can interfere in a criminal investigation or take steps to make it appear they are influencing an investigation. Powell concluded there was no evidence to support the allegations and we now know this person made false reports on other ocassions."

So here in your roundtable you are trashing Gene Smith and Urban for not reporting.  Well they did.  The only office they didn't report to was the office of "Compliance" which I believe deals with NCAA matters.  But this wasn't an NCAA matter....   But they had to find something right?

So I'm very disappointed that you are either ignorant of the facts reported on your website or simply want to look cool and tough like all your other journalist buddies.   But I support free opinion.   But I can't support the dirtying of someone's name because you knowingly ignore the facts.

You guys are just as bad as the rest o the press.  So glad I never donated.   And if you have read any of my post lately I was really thinking about it and encouraging others.  

Bye everyone
  
 

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buckeye2148's picture

hmm where to start. this article is perfect example of what happens when you get educated idiots involved. like the problem with leaving the decison up to capatain Drake another educated idiot. point making the ohio state university bigger than what it is in yhe realm of being just a college in the united states of america. where we already have over 30 thousand laws on the books to handle every conceiveable law breaking situation imaganable. so instead of allowing some of the tens of thousands of police persons lawyers prosecutors to decide if laws were broken our educated idiot decides he is going to be judge jury and excutioner. and just like this article writer for some unexplainable reason you all think just like Captain Drake seem to think you are more qualified to be judge jury and excutioner some how. how is that even posible were you all trained in law enforcement? it seems it is just your opinion thats why we have laws so we dont penalize people on just some educated idiots opinion. that my friends is exactly what hsppened here to coach meyer. we have a process in this country it has worked use it dont make up shit as we go to apease a few liberal turds

david roe

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High St Heismans's picture

BFD,Urban gets 3 games where does the University go to get it's good name back.That's not a stain its a tattoo.Meyer ignored the red flags for far to long.He ignored Gene Smith's advice to fire Zach.He changes his story every damn day - now he apologizes to Courtney.On wednesday he said "most of what I know of Zach Smith is work related".Really your wives were exchanging text messages,he was on your staff in Florida.Last month it's "who makes up stories like that" - now oops,sorry Courtney!!!Well what the hell is it.Hey Urban don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.You all know what the right thing to do is Miami,Baylor,PSU,MSU - but it's a media witch hunt in C-Bus.Say that out loud and see how it sounds

 As the song says "I'm frightened by those that don't see it"

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Johnny_fing_utah's picture

Nice try st heismans - this fact remains - nothing Urban did or did not do enabled, condoned, or covered up alleged DV.  The lies you said he told were about a blantant lie in a story from Brett McMurphy.  How ironic?  Similar to the song you reference.  Seems like there is somebody who doesn’t “see it” but your confused about who that somebody is.  

Johngobuck - thank you for clearly articulating the pontificating bullshit in the article above.  I have spent more time on this site as of late and was thinking about donating as well.  This long nauseating, nonsensical group think offsets everything good on this site!

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High St Heismans's picture

Ya right,Gene Smith suggested to Urban that Zach be fired 3 years back.Urban being full of himself thought whatever the hell it was he was thinking.Universities in Gainesville and C-Bus have been left gasping in Meyer's wake.He didn't even bother preparing a statement for the biggest PR event of the year.Urban has changed his story more than a carnival barker.This is nothing but a big kick in the balls for the University and like in Gainesville they have Urban to thank.Urban brought the Ebola chimp with him from FLa.Who's fault was that?Even Ramzy said everyone new what was going on.You think Woody Hayes would have put up with that shit?Ya Shelley knew but Urban didn't say that out loud and see how that sounds

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Bigmarty's picture

I am hard pressed to differentiate this article from others that claim not to be "political'.  There is nothing in the USA today that affects political thinking(including policy on drugs, morality, govt. spending) then an unfettered media. True democracy must have a responsible, answerable, free media.  Like with the Duke lacrosse team(thank you Duke Brennan), the cop in Missouri, the unaccountable media ruins lives, inspires riots by misleading the public with half truths or lies many times to fit a scripted agenda, known to a few.  They do so by purposely changing words like ARREST and investigation and domestic VIOLENCE and domestic ABUSE.  The legal standard for a successful law suit is set so high in actions against the media as to be no deterrent at all.

And remember this, most of our judges, are elected by popular vote which is influenced most by the media.  It would be political suicide for a directly elected judge at any level trial, appellate, supreme..to stretch the legal standard to place some fetters of sensible responsibility on the media... and the legislative bodies, forget it.  

I often refer to them as the Maggots of Society because they just love to feast on the human garbage of life...like a marriage gone bad, burrow deeper find more filth, more tragedy, only print/ broadcast what fits your line.  Compare to how much digging occurred when Jim Tressel gave those Nat.l Championship Rings to the 1941 team.  Did this site have a special Staff  Roundtable?

UFM's mistake, should have fired ZS earlier...waited til Earl died.  If he had fired ZS, earlier please explain how that would have helped CS.  If URB had not taken ZS from Fla. to OSU how would that have benefitted CS?????

And remember how this was a Title IX violation in the beginning according to the media???  Wow  ???  Still don't get the idiocy in finding fault with UFM learning from Title IX/Compliance via AD his boss about the NONARREST was a biggie.  Sounds like some SNAFU military unneeded requirement.  I know you told me this but I am telling you this...HUH???  Really searching...think?

Totally agree this was manufactured guilt except for having kept ZS, but again that was 1/2 of over $2mill for CS that she wouldn't have had if he had been fired earlier.  Now what time are the weekly Marital Bliss Classes scheduled for ALL OSU employees???

As of last look that part of both the U.S. and Ohio Constitutions that requires Probable Cause before an ARREST is made is still in place.  Just maybe, the Powell PD were following a Higher Power than even the Maggots, when after their investigation based on their training and experience, including the crediblity or lack thereof, of the witnesses NO probable cause could be found.  Nowhere has the Constitution been raised, even in this fine forum by the members of the media.  Wonder why? 

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pspock's picture

If we are going to discuss what *should* have happened, we need to include that everyone that is for increasing domestic violence awareness SHOULD want to get Courtney Smith out of the domestic violence awareness spotlight as soon as possible. Because there is a high risk of her credibility crashing. As of today, she is at the peak of the percentage of the public that believes her story. The people that don't believe her are currently the minority, but there's very little chance of them shrinking in size as they begin to believe her claims. Whereas the majority of people currently believe she really is a victim, but that has a lot of potential to shrink, given the number of people who would have to be wrong for her to be right is huge. Those stories corroborate each other, while Courtney has still yet had even one person corroborate her story. When the corroboration of stories leans that heavily to one side, reason begins to replace the emotion that led them to believe her at first. And when her support begins to avalanche down, that day will be horrible for domestic violence awareness... IF she is still in the domestic violence awareness spotlight. So I beg.... no... I plead with all the people continuing to use her as a poster child of domestic violence awareness. Please STOP! It's a disaster waiting to happen. 

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