MacIntyre and Colorado comparable to the situation, while Miller and Arizona comparable in coaching and program stature.
Time will tell.
Hindsight is, and in, 2020
Urban is not getting fired.
Suspension is possible.
He will be back coaching this team this season.
"Vision without execution is just hallucination."
I seriously hope you’re right - I don’t think he deserves to be fired at all. If he is then... Tom Herman please.
If Urban is forced out Herman would be great to get. It may be hard to lure him away from Texas though....
Onward and upward! Go Buckeyes!
Herman is Home and at his dream job, he won’t leabe unless he is let go.
Go Buckeyes and Go Lightning!
Yeah true - I really hope we keep Urban. Tough day. Im gunna go get some Bob Evans...
Hey yeah, sure hope he bring that Tim Beck guy with him....
Comparable but still a step removed with the 2015 incident. Urban was not contacted by the alleged victim (sorry, saying that because from a legal standpoint there have not been any court decisions).
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
Thanks for the article, Kevin. It’s a similar story, so there’s a need to compare.
Man….. this football team.-Jeff Okudah
Based off everything that has come out - not enough to fire him. Hate when we look bad nationally though.
At least we're not from Detroit...
Hate when we look bad nationally though.
I used to be like that, but I realized the following:
People who liked Ohio State prior to this story will still like Ohio State after the story. People who disliked Ohio State prior to this story will still dislike Ohio State after the story.
Yeah but this "us vs them" mentality is kind of dangerous. Adopting such a mentality is what turned the Penn State fanbase into a cancer on the body of college football.
"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."
YOU ARE ON GLUE if you are trying to compare this situation to the PSU situation as in you're dumb as a bag of hammers if you think they are even remotely similar
You WIN with people.
He is talking about the fan mentality in that program. Not the situation.
Fighting the good fight in SEC country. "Our honor defend"
No OSU fans have rioted in the streets of CBus yet over this as far as we know. So far I think we good in terms of being compared to PSU.
When a district attorney disappears without a trace and his/her laptop is found in a river without a hard drive then talk to me about Penn State. It’s not even close.
This actually happened?
Ray Gricar, the DA who chose not to charge Jerry Sandusky.
But it makes such a great name on the 11w website
When in doubt... Muck Fichigan
Nailed it on the head, Fairfax.
In the poll era (since 1936), OSU is by far the class of the B1G:
National Titles: OSU 8, UM 3
B1G Titles: OSU 34, UM 27
Head-to-head: OSU 43, UM 36
Major Bowls (New Year's Six): OSU 20-14, UM 10-16
Dr. Strauss and the previous administration have already taken care of the national image "black eye"--thank you!!
All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions. -Adlai Stevenson, governor, US ambassador
When you do nothing to help yourself don't expect a game of telephone from one person to another person to fix your problem. He's a FOOTBALL COACH, not the police, not a abuse expert, and not your marriage counselor.
"Because I couldn't go for three."
Agree completely here, Ollie. Shellie is not a DA, not a cop. And as a father (albeit of 3 boys, but an uncle to 5 girls), you can bet your bottom dollar I would have inserted myself into the situation if my daughter (or niece) tells me she is being abused by their significant other. The fact her parents didn't do anything, to me, speaks volumes. Yet somehow Urban is supposed to get involved when her own parents don't?
Put yourself in her situation: Hiram de Fries (Urban's shadow) told Courtney not to press charges in 2009. Then she gets texts in 2015 saying "He [Urban] doesn't know what to think." Then last week a reporter asked about the situation and Urban tells a lie she knows to be false. I would be gunning for Urban as well.
Therein lies the issue. None of us are IN her situation. We can PUT ourselves in her situation and talk like we would do things differently. My point here is, she directly said her parents knew. She told her parents. They did nothing. That is direct fact that SHE stated. If my daughter tells me she is being abused by her husband, I am not expecting a coach's wife to take care of it. I am not expecting the coach to take care of it. I, as a father of that girl, will take care of it. Her father should be absolutely ashamed of himself.
But where is the proof that Bruce talked her out of it, can make accusations all day long but with out proof, they are just that.
It’s 2018. If a man is accused of anything by a woman it’s automatically deemed true until massive evidence shows otherwise. Just the way of the world.
Urban is reqired to report allegations of abuse to OSU. This in not optional or discretionary. He is not required to get involved directly.
Are you citing his contract or the law here?
Because if you're citing his contract, it's up to Ohio State to decide whether he's in breach.
If you're citing the law, I'd like to know what you're citing.
And what's an "allegation" here? Rumors? Secondhand information from his wife?
What is considered abuse in this? For all we know, Shelly told Urban that the Smith's were having issues again, but that could be a number of things. I know this is semantics, but no where in the McMurphy piece does it specifically say physical abuse. Yes there are pics, but who were those sent to, if anyone? Yes Shelly mentions "even with the pics?" but pics of what? Pics of abuse? Pics of ZS trespassing?
I know a lot of people have tried to separate the Smith abuse case and Urban's knowledge, but they are truly intertwined.
If you view this case as I do, in that they look like the couple us "trailer park people" knew from back in the day who were toxic and liked to fight, then Shelley could have told Urban any number of things about the Smiths and her communication with Courtney. Even more importantly, Shelley could have been saying nice things to Courtney and being supportive while privately rolling her eyes. "There go the Smiths again."
we don't even know IF the pictures were sent to Shelley. For all we know, Courtney tells Shelley, "I filed a police report WITH PICTURES and can you believe those cops still didn't believe me?" That doesn't mean Shelley saw them.
^^This. There are a lot of conclusions being jumped to...I think someone mentioned it earlier, but the media is portraying Shelley and Courtney as being best buds, when we have no idea. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.
Do I think UFM knew about their toxic relationship? Absolutely. Do I think UFM knew about physical abuse after the 2009 incident? That I do not know for sure.
...and just looking at a text in the context? Urban doesn't know what to think about what? A fight? A "he said, she said?".
I havent seen the full texts only these excerpts. Does the text explicitly say, "Zack is phycially abusing me. Urban was told about the physical abuse but he doesn't know what to think". The question is about what Urban knew that he could act upon. Did Courtney explicitly tell the Myers there was a bunch of physical abuse going on at the time?
It is deadly serious if Urban was told about his coach physically absuing is wife and did nothing. Urban should be gone. But there is only insinuation and "Urban lied" is not a fact. It's taking things that are circumstantial and out of context and presenting them as facts.
Agreed! And with the Courtney/Lindsay text exchange, who knows what that conversation is even about...all it says is "urbs doesn't know what to think" Think about what? Sure it could have been ZS being a dickhead, but it could have been about Courtney's DUI for all we know?
I feel like saying something like this makes you look like you are unsympathetic to abuse victims (and maybe I do too), but I agree with all of this 100%. I am glad Zach Smith was fired. Should he have been fired earlier? I have no idea, because like you said, is it Urban Meyer's job to go in search of evidence of wrongdoing in the Smith family who clearly has a toxic relationship? Zach was probably telling Urban, it is all blown out of proportion, and then went back to doing his job...and he did it pretty well on the recruiting trail. If I am Urban, does this look like there is a major issue? I am not seeing the signs, so I let it go. Next, maybe Shelley didn't say much to Urban, because maybe Shelley saw Courtney Smith as unstable and not that trustworthy from all of her countless interactions with her. I don't know, it's all speculation. There are just too many what ifs here for Urban to fire a man who is doing a good job and not showing any negative signs in front of him. There are also WAY too many what ifs and speculation to fire or force Urban to resign. Ohio State cannot let the court of public opinion determine this decision.
Last point, and I think it deserves consideration. When this 2015 incident occurred, it was BEFORE Ray Rice. That is essentially the event that brought domestic violence to the foreground in society. Before Rice, it wasn't even a suspendible offense in most cases in the NFL. If nothing happened between 2015 and July 2018, do you think Urban with the millions of other responsibilities he has even gave the constant instability of the Smith's personal life much thought? It is not his job! There were no charges! How is he supposed to really "know" anything?
^^^One of the most well thought out and cogent post or article on 11W ever.^^^ Well done, sir.
Except it isn’t necessarily about whether Urban fired Smith but whether he reported it up the chain per the requirement of his contract. People keep glossing over this.
You are entitled to you own opinion, not your own facts.
Could someone show the place in Urban's contract that says he was suppose to report this to the higher ups please? Thanks in advance.
NVM, I found it. Not sure if it applies, but it seems to. Is the policy retroactive to 2015? Plus, Meyer stated he didn't know. So if he really didn't know, then is surely doesn't apply.
There are only 2 issues in my mind at this point:
1. Did he know?
2. And if he did, did he report?
If he didn't know, I would think he is in the clear, Same if he did know and he reported as required. Anything else, and Houston, we have a problem.
Excellent point. A lot of people talking about a clause in the contract that was supposedly inserted in April. Well, if that same clause didn't exist in the 2015 contract, you can't nail someone for violating the terms of his deal. At the time this all happened, he didn't.
It was posted yesterday. To be precise, he was required to report it to OSU's Title IX officer. It's in other threads, I'm not doing your grunt work. If you are doing this to point out it wasn't higher ups, you are correct.
I already stated that I found it. Was it a new clause added this year? If so, is the policy retroactive? If not, then there's absolutely no issue.
Title IX does not apply. Was on the radio this morning. It's because Courtney is not a student or employee of OSU.
report what though? She never came to him directly like the CU case and there were no charges filed. What is he supposed to come forward with. "The wives are talking about an abusive relationship with the Smiths, just so you know? really?
Reporting what? The assumption is that Urban actually knew something actionable? It is not a fact that Urban knew anything actionable. People seem to be glossing over this fact.
100% agree with you from a practical and legal standpoint. Your ex husbands boss is the wrong person to rely on to fix this issue. However, what could get Urban fired is that his contract states he is required to report any known or alleged cases of things including DV involving anyone on his team or staff to a title ix coordinator. So if it is true that he did know of courtney's texts to shelley, he is in violation of his contract by not informing someone.
Didn't Urban say in media days that he called OSU and for them to look into it? Then they got back to him saying they found nothing? Like I said in a previous article, if this is true he did report it to OSU and they told him they could find nothing.
Seems like I remembered him saying someone like that. If he reported to the university and they couldn't find anything then there is also no grounds to fire him.
Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0
Thank you Tiger, I thought I heard him say that in the Media Days thing.
I think that was specific to the Powell police reports on the 2015 incident. The university couldn't get them because they were either (a) sealed or (b) they requested information related to Zach Smith, not Courtney Smith (i recall people saying the reports were in the database, just under courtney smith with zach's name redacted).
To the same though, if he did call OSU and ask them to look into it then OSU was informed. Meaning that he did nothing wrong and followed what was asked of him to report anything to the school, in witch if true, he did indeed do.
True. Did he mean he called them last week, or that he called them in 2015? There's the difference.
I think a lot of this comes back to there being ZERO direct communication between Courtney Smith and Urban Meyer. To me, if something "comes to your attention" through hearsay, that's not enough to mandate reporting of it to others. Were that the case, he'd spend hours every month having to pass along all sorts of innuendo and gossip.
Sadly, I think the one part of this story that will carry more weight than anything else is that this is 2018, post-Harvey Weinstein and post-Larry Nassar. The cultural climate on this is so heated right now, I think even if Title IX isn't violated, public opinion might seal his fate.
"Woody would have wanted it that way"
I am of the belief that the Title IX clause was a new addition to his current contract that he signed this year. I don't know how alleged incidents from 3 years ago would be considered in this case. That might hinge on the Title IX guidelines for reporting potential abuse, as surely the NCAA has reporting guidelines that must be adhered to.
Legal precedent from a lawsuit filed against the University of Colorado by an ex coach s abuses spouse says she’s not covered under Title IX, so in really shouldn’t apply here
Yep CT. And this was mentioned on Golic and Wingo this morning also. So I'm pretty confident in saying Title IX doesn't apply here (and may not have applied anyway due to the timing of this new portion of his contract).
This is becoming a common sentiment. The problem is you are focusing on what the victim did, and I am afraid Ohio State is going to focus on what Urban did (or more aptly, did not do).
This is key. The university investigation is going to be about Urban (and, depending on what turns up,others). Courtney Smith isn't really going to factor into it.
I don't think that's true. The crux of her argument is Urban Meyer has always protected Zach Smith. Her proof for that is her allegation that he sent Fries and Earle Bruce to talk her down in 2009. Her credibility goes directly to the heart of what Meyer knew and what his actions were.
From OSU's perspective, her argument doesn't matter, nor does her credibility to a large extent. After all, they've already started an investigation. They're going to focus on Urban's knowledge and actions - if any - related to the 2015, and perhaps other, allegations.
I think whether he sent Fries and Bruce to shut her down is extremely relevant, as it would be concrete evidence Meyer engaged in cover-ups with respect to Smith in the past and ergo it's illuminating as to 2015. It would matter to me as an investigator because his credibility is very important here. If he says Shelley never told him, and she says the same, that's open and shut UNLESS the 2009 Bruce/Fries intervention is verified.
I mis-understood your first response. I agree his statements regarding his knowledge or lack thereof of any talks in 2009 with Courtney would go towards his credibility, but i don't think investigators are trying to prove or disprove her theories, they're looking at his conduct in 2015 (maybe 2012 when he began at OSU) onward.
Bruce is Zach Smith's grandfather. If it is true that he shut Courtney down from pressing charges the second time my guess is he did it completely of his own volition because unfortunately "blood is blood." I highly doubt he did it at Urban's request, that story doesn't sound very feasible at all.
How can there be a coverup if there is a public record, an arrest, and she declined to press charges? The focus will be entirely on 2015's timeline, that's the only thing osu can retain or fire myer for. You have it right if both myers say they never talked about it, then it's game over in the investigation. The only monkey wrench would be if a support staff said they told myer about the rumors of dv, then it would be, did you have a conversation with .... about dv? No, I never had a conversation with anyone about that situation. Game over. But there's always twists and turns that are unexpected, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
If if if Utban knew about the 2015 allegations, whether they are tre or false, this would mean he violated his contract w osu and lied through his teeth last week at media days.
Urban Meyer sent them? There is direct evidence that back in 2009 Urban directed Zachs grandpa and his friend to go talk to Courtney?
I did not read that anywhere. I read that they spoketo her. Not Urban directed it. Stick to facts.
I said it was her allegation.
She directly stated that she thinks Urban Meyer sent them? I will have to go back and look at the article and watch the video. But even if that is the case, more speculation.
I feel bad for her as a victim of abuse, but everything that comes out of her mouth in the context of Urban Meyer sounds like speculation intentially warped to make him look like he is a terrible person. Who does that? Idiots get sucked into that kind of talk, but IMO it causes her to lose credibility she desperately needs to fight the real enemy- her abuser.
I have my private thoughts about her, the least of which is her stories don't make a lot of sense.
The 'packaging' on her remarks to make Meyer look bad is mostly McMurphy's fault.
"It feels great ... it feels like, 'Shit, I got it.'" ~ Jeff Hafley
Great point, Ollie. Here is my take:
It sure seems like nothing but a witch hunt that a gold digger is looking for a payday.
Bucks Fan since 1970
"If they had found any corroborration of abuse in 2015, the choice would have been taken out of her hands and Zach would have been arrested on the spot and charged."
Exactly Brooksie! As an ex law enforcement officer, it's Ohio law that the State picks up those charges even if the victim refuses to press charges.
Rbeem127 - Spot on my man. I had a conversation with a friend of mine last night. Steve also happens to be a police officer for the City of Akron. When I mentioned that he can spot abuse from a mile away, Steve just rolled his eyes as if to say "If you only knew how right you are...."
Had there been one whiff of impropiety - action would have been taken, and I am sure that would have favored Courtney because of the kids. I was reading today the Courtney didn't just call 911 a few times - it was 66 times in a 90 day period! Yet Zach was never charged. Imagine that........
The more I read into this - the more angry I get. A woman who refuses to help herself, aided by a shyster "journalist" - both gunning for a massive payday and maximum reputation damage to quality people and a great university. Leopards don't change their spots.
One thing that we seem to hear is that Courtney may have reasonably feared pressing charges for any number of reasons (fear of Zach flying off the handle, fear of losing station publicly, fear of being outed as a victim). Just about all of these reasons, though, are identical reasons to why she *wouldn't* have wanted Zach fired. So the exact action that we're all now demanding should have been automatic is likely the exact action Courtney herself was hoping--and perhaps actively working--to prevent (at least in 09 and 15 incidents).
That's a lot for anyone to parse
Gene might hand Urban a 1 or 2 game suspension. Dont see much more than that happening.
I actually think if Gene decides to toss out a suspension, 3 games is probably a lot more likely than 1 or 2, simply so that they can show that they're suspending him for a game that actually matters (TCU) and avoid all the "the suspension is just for show, of course it only includes cupcakes" complaints.
Granted, they'll still get complaints no matter what from the "firing is the only acceptable answer" crowd, but I think it'll really help Ohio State's case if the suspension includes a real football game against a live opponent rather than Oregon State and Rutgers.
Agreed. If we do lose to TCU under Day it's at least at a point in the season where we can recover from it and still be in the playoff picture if we win the rest of our games (think VT in 2014). I do think TCU is a beatable team from a talent perspective but Gary Patterson is also a hell of a coach and he'll have his team fired up for that matchup no doubt.
Assuming nothing new comes to light and Gene gives him some type of suspension, would that be adimitting Urban was negligent in some way, shape, or form? Do you think he’d have to get specific as to why the punishment was bestowed upon him? I can’t decide if that would make things look better or worse from a PR perspective.
The perception here could be confusing. *If he’s suspended* we’re still going to hear from a loud crowd that he should’ve been fired for allowing an even alleged serial abuser on staff for nearly 7 years.
Honesty though, if it does come down to a suspension, it will simply be a ‘save face,’ add in a donation a la Colorado, and it’s a done deal.
Love you more, JW. 1/16/71-9/23/12
Urban will continue coaching and will be back next week. I think he finishes his contract and sails off into the sunset a rich man. #urbsagainsttheworld
From your mouth to God’s ear. This is the golden age of Buckeye football and I fear it is coming to an end. Trying to remain positive, but it is hard.
Interesting stuff, thanks for the context, Kevin !
Good stuff. I feel good again.
Great take Ollie. I couldn’t say it better.
Its good to be the king
There’s only a comparison in the situation. Not in how it will be handled, by Ohio St or in the court of public opinion.
1) Ohio State is going through a sexual abuse scandal right now and it’s as timing for this issue with Urban.
2) no one gave a shit then because it was Colorado. Anyone with a pen, a keyboard, or microphone is frying our Coach right now. Any of you still think there isn’t a national hate and bias towards Ohio State? Turn on any sports channel or surf the Internet today.
I do agree with both of these. The context and the scale are drastically different.
Thought the same thing when I read "Colorado Coach McIntyre" and then saw the ESPN homepage just crushing Urban without ANY proof. And how Courtney Smith is an icon for bravery. It is very hard for me to believe any of it.
Agree with you, MD. The praise Courtney Smith is receiving is entirely unjustified. She neglected her responsibility to herself and to her children by not filing charges and putting a stop to the abuse. According to her own statements, she had multiple opportunities to do so. Many have made excuses for her, but the fact remains Courtney Smith and Courtney Smith alone is responsible for her own protection. She failed in that duty and now seeks to blame others for not coming to her aid.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least, you need a beer." - Frank Zappa
This is disgusting victim shaming. High profile members of the OSU community visited Courtney Smith to push her against pressing charges. When you're dealing with an abuser, do you really think you're going to finally feel safe for yourself and your children if you incriminate him? The amount of fear, instability, and saddening realization of her family being torn apart that would surely come with filing charges are all understandable.
If you knew your good friend was being abused by her husband, wouldn't you feel obligated to do something to protect her? But sure, keep blaming the victim for not pressing charges.
This is not victim shaming at all. High profile members of the OSU community intervened at Florida? Zach's grandpa and his friend?
Listen. My mother was abused by her first husband. She walked out with my (half) sister and never looked back.
My current wife was abused by her first husband. She lived in a homeless shelter with her son.
Both these women had NO support. My mother was an immigrant and my wife was cut off from her family.
I'm glad I have great examples for how to raise my daughter.
Abuse is horrible. But your situation does not change unless YOU CHANGE IT.
I personally don't blame Courtney for not pressing charges (though I do think she has some responsibility to her children) - however I DO have a problem with her blaming others for her own inaction. Urban can't file charges for her!
Avail, the downside to not pressing charges is the violence never stops until the abuser is put behind bars. I've personally dealt with several instances where the victim fails to press charges and the abuser continues to abuse the victim, their children, or another woman. Women have a responsibility to protect themselves, their children, and other women by filing charges and putting these vile people behind bars. Nobody else can do it for them. Saying Courtney was responsible for protecting herself and her kids is not "victim shaming" or anything of the sort. It's recognition of our laws and one's solemn responsibility to protect oneself and family.
You are very welcome to your opinion and I do understand your viewpoint, but the reality is, nobody is responsible for your personal safety other than YOU. She had multiple opportunities, some with the police present, and failed to file charges thereby placing herself in further jeopardy. In the domestic violence cases I dealt with directly, a third party could not press charges, only the victim could.
What is the ex-wife hoping to get out of this by doing a sit down interview. Your're already separated from Zach, you had your chance to put Zach away but you were "pressured" into not pressing charges, you haven't been abused (that we know of) since 2015. If you have something to say, say it to the authorities. I think she's pissed at Shelley and Urban so she is throwing their names around.
What is the ex-wife hoping to get out of this by doing a sit down interview
I really can't think of any rea$on $he would want to do any kind of $it down interview...
“Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.”
Generally, there's absolutely no financial incentive for her to do this and I don't know why people assume there is. I think maybe there's a misunderstanding that you get millions of dollars – or are paid at all – for doing interviews with a website, but that's not how it works. She actually had a financial incentive to keep it quiet and keep him employed, because I'm sure she received child support from him and he helped provide for her children, which is why she says she didn't come forward many times in the first place.
This cannot be overstated enough. That's really why most Domestic Violence reports don't get charged in celebrity cases. In her divorce, the child support is based off of current earnings. If she trashed Smith before the divorce and got him fired, then she loses a lot of money.
Long story short, we need to stop being apologists (like PSU fans were). Urban effed up keeping a scumbag (and shitty coach, if you're going to cover, at least cover for an LJ or Coombs, not Smith) guy in the program even though he was aware that there was a 2nd offense. I get that he felt an obligation to Coach Bruce, and that in 09, he was trying to help someone that he viewed almost as a child of his, but 2nd time means the dude has other problems, and should not be mentoring young men.
Lastly, he effed up the B10 media days. There is no law against lying to the media, or we would never have a president (past or present), but it still doesnt look good when you do, especially once the BS is called out. Not only did he lie, but he basically claimed that she was fabricating all of it, that's a very egregious accusation to make. What he should've said was that he was trying to look out for someone that he is very close to due to the Coach Bruce ties and that his intent was to mentor him. People would completely view that differently, instead he threw Smith's ex under the bus. DV me, call em a hater, but Meyer played this horribly, and deserves whatever comes from it.
I will pound and pound you until you quit
- Woody Hayes
There is a factor: she's a woman scorned.
People don't like to hear this, but in nasty divorce cases, people lie. A LOT. Ask any divorce attorney how often he fields a call from a client wherein one spouse has fabricated something, sought a protective order, sought emergency (sole) custody, filed police reports...all of which stink on ice.
What's more plausible, that the following entities covered up serial abuse:
Or that this is a couple that liked to fight (maybe you all didn't grow up in the trailer park the way I did, but there was always one couple where the police had to come out every weekend) and we've heard one side of a self-serving story?
You can add 11W to that list!
They had their reasons for not reporting (and probably good ones like the rest of the list), and decided to let it sit!
Edit: Not trying to be a jerk to 11W (I love you guys/gals), but everyone had a reason to not pursue at least some portion of the entire damn thing. Which makes me believe that there is much more to the story than what is out there.
"Most Noahs have two of everything, he's got four tonight" - Gus Johnson on Noah Brown's 4 TD catches against Oklahoma.
Like everyone, I don't know the first thing about this woman or what makes her tick, but if she IS looking to cash in, she's not looking for nickels from an interview, she's looking for boatloads from a lawsuit.
My wife said if Courtney Smith would have went public in 2015 it would have stopped the abuse.
Going public today gives her a paycheck!
How dare Urban and Shelley not smooch her posterior constantly. Off with their heads!!!
The ex's money train is GONE. Now she has to set up her lawsuit lotto against the Meyers and OSU. Simple as that.
This is definitely where I parked my car.
He told his superior though, although in this case the woman in question informed him directly. Similar but different.
Reading this makes me feel just a little more optimistic that Urban will be back I just don't see it. Hoping for the best obviously.
Anyone have any kind of guess on the timeline of this decision one way or the other? I'm thinking by the end of the weekend we'll know something.
I feel like it if is the next few days, he will be gone. If they are bringing him back, it takes longer, if nothing else, but to give the impression of a thorough investigation.
By Monday, they should know what they need to know. By then, they'll have whatever documentation exists (texts, notes, emails) and then it's a matter of looking at Title IX and what was required of Urban based on what he knew.
Another huge difference is that one was Colorado and this is Ohio State. We've always been held up a higher standard and people are always looking to see us lose.
Horseshit. Makes no difference if it was Timbuktu. It was a legal matter handled in court by the judicial system. This ‘everyone hates us’ shit is tired
You can say it's tired all you want, but it is what it is. Everyone knows it. Go back and look at how "outraged" people were over Colorado's coach compared to Urban Meyer. I don't even remember the story with Colorado's coach, so that gives you an indication right there about how much publicity it got.
Agreed. I'm sure there are some extremists out there throwing around the death penalty to OSU football for this as well. A big reason why this story has so much traction despite the lack of evidence is because there are many, MANY people out there (some of whom work for the media) who want to see the OSU football program buried six feet under.
Wrong. What we're dealing with today is not a legal matter in court, it is an internal investigation by a university/athletic department that is in CYA mode. The Smith's court case--where his attorney said she used 911 as a weapon against him and that every cop that went to their house would testify to that fact (yup, his lawyer, I get it)--is months away at best. The Urban issue has to be settled within a week. It doesn't have the luxury of time, logic, and legality, it is all about emotion, public perception and potential lawsuits.
People want Urban fired more for not firing Zach than they do for not going to the authorities, assuming he knew all along of course. As if firing Zach solved all the problems.
The key to whether the Colorado case is relevant is did Meyer inform his superiors at the time of the situation. The UC coach did and the Administration terminated the assistant coach after allowing him to coach in that seasons bowl game. I think the text messages here paint a picture that strongly implies Meyer knew about the allegations in 2015 hearing it from Shelley, confronted Smith who denied it and tried to make his wife appear "crazy" leaving Meyer not knowing what to think. The question that has not been answered is did Meyer report the situation to the University at that time. The next question is what did he tell the University last week while he was publicly telling the press he was unaware of any issues in 2015. If he has kept the Administration in the dark at every stage throughout this process I think he has little or no chance of retaining his job. Not when the issue revolves around domestic violence. He will be portrayed as an enabler who at the very least exhibited poor judgment and at worst knowingly covered the incident up hoping it would go away. I hope that is not how it plays out, but I would not bet on it.
This is my understanding as well.
I season my simple food with hunger
Yep, this is good analysis and explains why a smart man would lie to the media. If he didn’t report it in 2015 and admitted in the presser he knew about it, he was in violation of his contractual agreement. If one thought there was no proof out there, it is a calculated risk to make a false statement to the media. Not saying this is how it went down, only that this makes sense.
Biggest takeaway is the Title IX implications. Basically, it says that there's no protections in Title IX for someone outside the umbrella of those Title IX was designed to protect (students, staff, etc.), so any Title IX action must be initiated by those under the Title IX umbrella or the federal government.
Because this is from another circuit, the case is informative, but not binding, so a district court here could go another way.
I'd like to read the opinion, but the plain letter of the statute prohibits discrimination against protected persons. It does not prohibit discrimination BY covered employees. Otherwise, Title IX would require any university employee in the United States to report anything he has heard regarding any other university employee. Extending it to any family member of any university employee just doesn't make sense.
"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance"
What's her claim of discrimination here?
What's her claim of discrimination here?
What's her claim of discrimination here?
I don't think she has one because she is not a protected person. But by not reporting, OSU was not able to conduct a Title IX investigation to determine whether Zach Smith's presence on campus created a hostile environment.
Any eventual case would be federal government vs. OSU for OSU not enforcing Title IX. I wouldn't hold my breath on this happening.
I think that is the biggest problem. And I do not think OSU wants to battle this out in court. If I had to guess they want to avoid that in general. If the university had ruled at the time there was no clear intention of hostility or whatever than there it is.
Even if one would argue it should not apply and everythign did the letter of the law, it would be a rough go. Because it does not look good for Meyer sticking with somebody doing this.
Doing the wrong thing ( firing a coach) to appease the jealous masses is not what needs to be done.
Let them hate, do the right thing and let Urban coach, the police arrest people, counselors - councel and judges make rulings.
The lord of brevity.
Is this ruling referring to Title IX?
"Defendants' alleged failure to follow the university's rules and policies did not increase the risk of harm to (Fine) given that, as someone with no affiliation with or connection to the university, she was not within the group of individuals that the policies were designed to protect," Martinez wrote in the ruling, which was issued Wednesday.
“That’s the way you respect a rivalry. Then you outwork them and then you kick that ass like it’s never been kicked before” - Urban F Meyer
We used to play that game telephone when we were kids. Never thought it could hold up in a court of law.
I don’t think this is a court of law thing to be honest. Sure she could file a lawsuit and embarrass the school further, but with what we know now, she doesn’t win. Of course Urban and Shelley would be deposed. Who knows what they say at this point. OSU might not get past his contract language though.
Even Bretty McMurphy cant prove (and he said it) that Urban knew anything about 2015 before last week.
Yep. As I and others have said, it really comes down to what Shelley told OSU (assuming those texts are legit, and I am). And since she is an employee of OSU, you can bet she has already been interviewed. That is why this could be wrapped up pretty quickly.
It is still a bunch of horseshit.
It is ridiculous to me to say he gets fired for similar behavior because this is Ohio State and not Colorado State.
But two key differences, one potential and it is unknown;
1) McIntire didn’t lie about this in a press conference (if in fact it was a lie);
2) McIntyre reported it up the chain. Did Utban? This to me is a huge key, because that clause in his contract seems to be the sticking point. My gut tells me he did not, but I await further information.
Do we know that Urban knew? Nope.
The accuser had the police records locked to save her husbands job. That behavior doesn’t point toward Zach Smith coming into work Monday morning and saying “I fucked up boss. Beat up the old lady last night” does it? Urban couldn’t exactly report it up the chain then, could he?
OK, so I read in McMurphy's report that ZACH had the records sealed, but the Dispatch said SHE had them sealed. Has anyone confirmed which one is true?
Isn't it Urban's job to know? Why wouldn't he know if many other people around the program knew? Weren't there signs pointing to this kind of stuff starting in 2009 and Smith was still kept on staff for years?
Not here to troll...Go Blue
Right, but this isn't the most likely scenario. It would be that something was said to Shelley with some specificity, and she relayed it to Urban. Again, we don't know that this happened either, but I think this is where the resolution lies.
This to me is a huge key, because that clause in his contract seems to be the sticking point. My gut tells me he did not, but I await further information.
A question I have is if the clause was in his contract in 2015, or was it only added when he signed his extension this year?
Another question is the threshold for reporting. Assuming Shelly did tell him, then what does he tell his line boss? “Someone told me that someone told them that so and so did this.”
If that is the threshold, then he may have much more he should be reporting, and OSU likely needs to hire more desk jockeys.
It sounds like the Smiths had a lot of drama. So Urban had to tell Gene everytime they had a fight? You're right, they'd need another staff member. "Courtney got mad because Zach didn't take the trash out, and he called her a bitch. Urban, please forward to Gene."
I believe it was only in his contract extension added this year. But I don't know the implications of that - i.e. is it retroactive to 2015. But I'm also fairly certain now the TitleIX stuff doesn't apply. Heard it on the radio and it seems to be the ruling of the federal judge in the Colorado incident.
I don't believe he should be let go. But my opinion counts for nothing.
"Tina, you fat lard, come get some DINNER!... Tina, eat. Food. Eat the FOOD!"
No true, you're a member of 11w, and a member of Buckeye Nation, we all care about your opinion. Stand up and scream it proudly!
Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.
And there is that one KEY difference, to me, that tells the story. Courtney Smith never directly reported the incident to Urban Meyer, and there is absolutely NO proof of just exactly what Urban Meyer was informed of in 2015... Period.
You sure that is how it works? We might have a situation where an OSU employee (Shelley) reported it to Urban. I am not sure why people think it would have to come directly from Courtney. I still think it comes down to the specificity of information Shelley told Urabam, if they talked about it at all.
If Zach's ex-wife texted all of the coaches wives as she claims I find it hard to believe that not one of the wives didn't discuss this with their husband, especially Schiano's wife. If anyone knows the ramifications of not reporting improprieties it would be Schiano.
Schiano wasn't here in 2015.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
My bad. I thought he came in 2015 but I was wrong. Not the first time and won't be the last. Thanks for keeping me honest
While I agree that Urban's responsibility stops at being a coach, when it comes to his coaches personal lives unless he has PROOF that they are doing something illegal that can be reported to authorities, all he can do is confront them. We all know that Urban works very hard to create an environment where his young men flourish and grow to be great players and MORE importantly great people. It sucks that Courtney is dragging he and Shelley through the mud but it is very likely that she is an abuse victim of at least six years. Historically people always say," Why don't they just leave?" Well folks, it just does not freaking work that way! Abuse is a cycle that repeats over and over until either the abuser is arrested, the abused leaves or is killed. This whole situation is completely unfortunate and the only person who should be suffering is Zach Smith. Given the timeline of his legal issues, I personally do not understand how the hell is is not doing time. Must have a damn good lawyer.......
The mountains are calling, and I must go.
To me the most obvious thing is that other universities showed support for their coach… Arizona, MSU, Colorado, Now, maybe that was after it was determined there wasn’t much liability for each university, but that to me is key. If Ohio State gets behind Urban, this is much more readily weathered. If Ohio State bows to public outcry for his termination, that is what will happen.
In terms of precedents set, OSU doesn't have a track record of handling things in the realm of allegations/speculation very well. See: how they handled the Torrence Gibson situation just last year.
One year suspension. Urban knew Smith was a threat to his wife. Shelley said that Smith scared her. The idea that she did not tell Urban is crazy.
Meyer will be ok with suspension bc it will allow him to move on from this. He will be done with the issue in 12 months. If he is fired, it lingers forever. If no punishment, it lingers forever.
The University will be ok with this bc they took serious action. Still will be many people saying they did not do enough but they will have satisfied many.
And this will also be a test run for Ryan Day.
There's a gray area.
Shelley Meyer may have mentioned to Urban, "oh, Courtney and Zach are having their problems again"
If myer says he didn't know, he absolutely will not be ok with a suspension. Osu can say you should have known, others told us they knew, so you weren't on top of the situation, and as the head man it's your responsibility to know. That's the get back for believing he's lying. I understand a majority find it unlikely that myer wasn't told about the '15 situation, but what if he told his wife, I don't want to hear any more about that situation, let those two work out their own problems, I'll deal with it when it's the courts or the cops. That is when he dealt with it, when it was the cops and the court. I'm sure he was advised that there were going to be revelations when it went back to court, that's why he took the action he did after the fact of the trespassing.
Was there an order to seal documents by the defendant so that Tumpkin would not face disciplinary issues?
I hope all donations to the school stop immediately if Urban gets fired.
"You can not use logic" -Gary Danielson of CBSec
They will from me, that's for sure. Unless more info comes out showing Urban knew and somehow tried to protect Zach Smith, this is an absolute media witch hunt. OSU should NOT fire Meyer because jealous people on the internet are outraged. That, I believe, is part of reason why Tressel was fired, and I was pissed about that at the time, but could justify it because he did break an NCAA rule. If OSU bungles this once more, I am done with them.
"I love football. I think its the most wonderful game in the world and I despise to lose" - Woody Hayes
The sun will rise again tomorrow....
Saban on a cart eating cold pizza
To my mind the key to Urban surviving this is someone like Lyndsay Volintini. She stated in the text she swapped with Courtney an indirect quite from Urban supposedly having talked to Zach and saying Zach denied it.
OSU will no doubt question every coach and staff person and every spouse to see if they personally witnessed Urban ever speaking about the issue.
If 1 of them comes forward and says yeah i was in the room when Urban was talking to Zach about this, then he is likely done.
I think the coercion stuff from 2009 is going to be very hard to prove one way or the other as Earle and his wife have both passed away and the attorney is not likely to talk short of a court hearing.
So assuming Courtney never directly talked to Urban, then someone else has to come forward to say yes I told him about it, or yes I know he spoke to Zach about it.
If that happens and Urban did not report it to his superiors and then lied about it in the press, then he will be fired for tarnishing the brand if for no other reason.
If nothing more comes out that what we have now, the preponderance of the evidence would seem to lead to "he likely knew, but we cant prove it".
That may not be enough to fire him, but could lead to a suspension without pay.
A side note is that Shelley may end up be in more trouble than Urban. She is a University employee as well and if she knew (as the text threads appear to show), then she will almost certainly be let go for failure to report it.
In the end Urban is being tried in the public opinion court the same as Tressel for appearing to be a hypocrite. Tressel with his "Senator" persona etc appeared to be "above reproach", but was later found to have directly lied so as to keep players eligible and nearly got away with it until digging into his old emails exposed him
Urban is similar in his supposed "no tolerance Policy" about respect for women, but if he knew then there was at least 1 exception to that rule and hence he looks like a hypocrite and further engaged in nepotism.
Either way both men are paid a ton of money to "Protect The Brand"!!!! and in a key situation it appears both failed (or may have failed) to keep that in mind
I know people want to be optimistic here but I think this is over and Coach Meyer will either be let go or, more likely, he will resign. The media, sadly, drives these types of stories. Personally, I would like to see what abuse occurred, when it occurred, were the police involved, what did the police or DA decide to do, when did Coach Meyer get involved...etc. My problem with all of this is that we now apply today's standards to what happened years ago. Today, an allegation gets you fired in many cases. Three years ago, only a conviction got you fired. If Coach Meyer had dismissed Smith in 2015 without a conviction, that could have been a big problem for the University. At the end of the day, IMO, optics will overrule fairness and Coach Meyer will no longer be coaching the team.
If fired, how hard do the Meyers go after Ohio State? I believe it would be a settlement and resignation, but still.
With a vengeance, I hope.
My father-in-law is an employment lawyer, but not familiar with Ohio law. I don't think Urban is in any legal trouble at all. IF this is considered title xi AND he knew AND he didn't tell Gene, that would qualify as a breach of contract but not a crime. Since the alleged victim is unaffiliated with the university, I'm not sure if it's considered title xi. Where it gets even more gray is if Urban did tell Gene, Ohio State will want to show the court of public opinion that it conferred with law enforcement/DA and didn't find cause to dismiss Smith in 2015.
Yah.. her husband's job and boss is the culprit or responsible for something, give me a break. Urban does nothing all day at work probably. I believe him that he didn't know anything, and if he remembers something now in hindsight I don't care and it doesn't matter. Courtney, if that's your name, write OSU and Urban Meyer and apologize. Where's your family and friends? She gets absolutely nothing. Urban stays if he still wants to coach.
The only articles I trust right now is this sites, all the other “news” sites are just bashing Ohio State and talking complete nonsense. Yahoo.commjust bashed Boren for speaking the damn truth yesterday, calling him dangerous with his anti-news speech. Also saying he took a page out of trumps handbook, like am I the only one here that sees this garbage and can’t stand society today? This is one of the big reason why I don’t trust main stream media on anything. Sorry for getting political guys, but that really pisses me off. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/ex-osu-player-...
And the link doesn’t work... great.
Did you see the article on ESPN's homepage? It's borderline slander. I am normally one that laughs at cries of "fake news", but now I am beginning to understand that viewpoint a little better.
Yeah dude It’s horrible! I’m so sick of this shit.
Great job of reporting, Kevin, no, I actually think it was fantastic!
You went from the Cleveland Plain Dealer giving just the basic situation at Colorado
to Sport Illustrated and the media hyping the professors' whining at the university
to the judge ruling that the coach's failure to report did not further harm the victim,
and lastly you pointed out the similarities and differences with Ohio State.
Excellent piece of research and commentary! Much thanks.
Life starts all over again when it gets crisp in the fall. (F. Scott Fitzgerald)
I pulled up 97.1 on my phone and Colorado was brought up and Title 9. Roman numerals are for ancient Romans, I won't do it. Title 9 is for students and to ensure equal chance. The alleged victim is not a student and does not apply.
I have a few questions.i just looked at the pictures and texts from Courtney. If you look at the texts:
1. It's Verizon.. If you have Verizon you know it time stamps each text. Why is there no time stamp? Also Verizon has the date at the top of each day you send a text.. where is that in the pictures of texts?
The pictures of her injuries:
The picture of her arm.. it looks more like a rug burn or some type of burn. If Zach did grab her there and bruise her you would see finger marks.
Her cut hand.. she claims he cut her with a can of chew. If you try to unscrew a tin those cuts match up with her pulling the lid off. It would be hard for someone to swing a can and cut them in such a small area.
I'm far from condoning dv. I despise it. It's just that some of these things don't look right to mr.
Apologies in advance if this subject has been addressed. Is Ohio State in danger of any NCAA investigation or penalties? If so, any speculation how bad the penalties could be? Go Bucks, Xichigan still sucks.
It's a Dawg Eat Dawg world and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear - Norm Peterson