Carmen didn't flip...he never verballed to OSU, it was just assumed he'd land in Columbus.
In the end, I'm just moving on. I don't even venture beyond 11W for recruiting/college football, and it already feels like I ventured too far out in the waters.
The Buckeyes are still landing a great class, and they'll continue to be excellent for the foreseeable future.
Hindsight is, and in, 2020
Fact. I did botch that. He was an assumed-commit flip**
It does seem bad we are trying to find answers to why we only have the 2nd ranked class.
"It does seem bad we are trying to find answers to why we only have the 2nd ranked class."
That pretty much sums it up. Sure we'll remember these guys over time, and how they "should have been Buckeyes", but I think the kids Urban did land yesterday will more than make up for those he didn't.
Appreciate the post, CICG43.
And assumed by quite a number of folks that are usually pretty good. Not sure if that annoyed him or what. I doubt he cared and he went to the best fit, but it was strange to see so many very good predictors be wrong on this going in. Was just striking.
There are no absolutes...especially in recruiting.
Although you are 100% correct about Carmen not being committed no one will convince me that behind closed doors he didn't tell coaches he was coming or give them a strong reason to believe that. These coaches are not stupid, with the need at OT they would have had a better backup plan. They may very well turn out fine and recruit another good lineman but it is very hard for me to believe that they weren't pretty sure he was coming.
I have absolutely no problem with him wanting to play somewhere else. If he wants to get out of state and maybe play in a little warmer climate, I can understand that just tell the coaches your plans so everyone can move on.
Of course like you said we still landed a great class. Congratulations and welcome to all the recruits that wanted to be Buckeyes.
I dont believe the "too much pressure" for Carman, he's an Olinemen, who would put that pressure on him. Josh Meyers was a highly rated OL, from Ohio and is now a RS. I think he just wanted to get away from Ohio, it happens.
Woodbey said FSU was his dream school, watched Prime Time highlights as a kid. Probably had some of that FSU crack, you know the Honey Fried Chicken.
Per the OP thoughts on Cox and Jones, they should have never Committed in the first place, those factors weren't going to change. It sucks we lost so many top rated guys in the final moments, definitely stings, but we move on. With the misses Urban says they've had on the OL, the 19 OL class needs to be close to UGA 18 OL class.
Yea no joke. That is a Ron Burgundy, "I’m not even mad, that’s just impressive” OL haul by UGA and they got Zamir White to run behind them.
Carmen made the comment a few months ago that if Ohio State wasn't in Ohio he would have committed a long time ago. You're right, he just wanted to get away and there's nothing wrong with that
I think we’re likely misreading his comment about pressure. Dabo has taken shots at OSU’s competitive culture under Urban, where every single activity is about winning and losing. Carman’s comments, to me, read more like he thinks OSU will be work, while Clemson will be playtime. I don’t think it has much to do with outside pressure, or having to measure up against the tradition. It’s taking (what he thinks is) the easier path.
At Clemson he will get to play grab ass. Just ask Curtis Samuel about the way they play that game.
Well, Clemson does have a slide in its new football building...
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Why would anyone want to leave Ohio?
(ignore the username)
Something more to Woodbey. Seems like he felt the staff did him wrong; maybe he felt deceived by Schiano almost taking the UT job. Woodbey was retweeting every major OSU recruiting loss yesterday. That isn't normal.
"That isn't normal."
You've put that nicer than I could, Eph.
Well, if you just re-affirmed your commitment to OSU to the staff the week before, you are probably feeling a bit of guilt. To assuage that guilt, it is common to associate with "fellow travelers" so to speak. Makes perfect sense to me.
When Joe Barksdale was being recruited, a lot of people on the boards would discuss not only where he would land, but what position he would be. He wanted DT, but many questioned his motor, and said he would end up as OT. Well, admins on Bucknuts would delete posts or entire threads because they knew he was reading the boards and that his recruitment was fragile enough that a single post that contradicted his personal feelings might be enough to shut down his OSU recruitment. In the end, LSU told him he could play DT, which lasted through about a week of practice before they moved him.
The point is, with some of these kids it doesn’t take much to completely blow up their plans in their minds. Rico McCoy allegedly sent his LOI in to OSU, but put it upside down in the fax machine. When we told him we received just a blank sheet of paper, he took it as a sign, quickly rethought it and sent an LOI to Tennessee. Schiano’s news, per Woodbeys tweets at the time of the news, made him reconsider. It happens. I don’t know how you combat that, or what potential pitfalls exist once a player gets to his college. Some are just very, very fragile.
I am more pleased with the 21 that signed on than worried about the 4 or so that got away. Those 4 were not "all in," so I wish them well as they move on. At least none of them went up north.
I'd rather be an hour early than a minute late.
Tis better to have been committed and flipped, than to never have been committed at all???
Damn it feels good to be a Buckeye
Personally if I said I was committed I would be 110% all in and shutdown my recruitment. But what do I know…I am a 30 year old that has never been recruited, told I am the greatest thing on earth, told I am God’s gift to football, or had a twitter account.
I was a walk-on to a D-III golf team at Ohio Northern University...
i've been watching this recruiting game long enough to know that saying you're 110% committed means you're 100% flipping. So are you saying you understand all these flips? :)
I just talked to her last week. She was gonna make a pot for me.
This is how MSU recruits. You don't committ unless you're 110% bought in and you shut down your recruitment. Take visits and lose your scholarship because you were supposed to be certain when committing. They obviously can't get many 5 stars and especially not the look at me, wine me dine me types with that approach. In fact they had a class a couple years back where they did land a few national level high 4 star recruits which is unusual for them. All those guys got booted in short order if Im not mistaken. They do far better with the low 3 star blue collar guys and have continued to compete with anyone in the country. They've been the only real big ten thorn in osu's side over the past decade
The whims of talented 17 year olds, that seems like a hard road for coaches and staffs.
The whims of talented 17 year olds
17 year olds.
You said in 5 words what took me a book. I wish I had your literary savvy lmao
The Buckeye behind enemy lines...
Good post 3.
I’ll have to admit, the Buckeye in me was dismayed, insulted, pissed...that we didn’t get these guys. I was an Army recruiter one time and I’ll tell you, the feeling you get when someone “commits” to the Delayed Entry Program only to DEP loss a few months later, and right before they were to ship out, is like a gut punch. The reality is though, the reasons don’t really matter. Our rationale as a fan base one way or another, is immaterial. Adults my age, older and younger, sometimes make decisions that others would look at and think, “Da fuq?” And here we are, waxing philosophical over some dude born in or at the cusp of the 21st Century.
Dismay, insult, pisstivity. I had it. Within me. But I quickly snapped back and realized that this should be directed toward the overall situation, and not the child. Someone’s child, who was blessed with athletic gifts I only dreamt of, and with choices that an adult might...just might...struggle with as well.
Of course this site was created for the passionate fan to root for, support and love his/her team, and to express feelings in words (and gifs lol). Free speech is one of the more wondrous things we have, though it allows us sometimes to express out loud things that maybe, if given a moment of pause and context, would be better served if held within, particularly in the case of a young recruit tryna figure it all out for all the world to see.
I'll be the cynic. They flipped because they felt the fit was better elsewhere. Has anyone ever gotten more than one job offer at once? Same thing here for these kids.
Whatever their reasons, it seems like its hand-wringing for the sake of it because it ignores that Meyer and OSU is holding down the #2 recruiting class in the nation adding to a team who's last 3 recruiting rankings per Scout are 2, 4, and 7. I get the need for some sort of autopsy and the local kids defecting hurts when they had OSU offers in hand, however....I think the sun will come up for Ohio State.
Proudly dispensing unbridled arrogance since 1983.
This. A lot of OOS kids commit early and realize that they really didn't want to be there, for whatever reason. Recruiting for college kids isn't like a 50 year old dude making up a power point comparison to evaluate whether he should buy a Kia or a Honda.
It is a good post. I think the worst of it has been to see some of the logic of the fans. All flipped because of some vague and poorly defined decline of things and the end of times. It sucks for sure, but it is not the end of times. When recruiting the top guys one needs to accept that they are mostly going to be high chance flip candidates. Other schools are going to be after them.
You get lucky sometimes and guys are super loyal at that level but not always. Just the way it is in this. It stinks that a guy from Ohio did not want to stay at home but at the same time he seemed like somebody that was hell bent on getting out of the state of Ohio in the first place.
We can see how things shake up next year. There are a couple of very highly ranked DE from Ohio that at the moment are expected to be in the class. I wonder if the tune will change then? Still a long way to go with that though.
The 19' DEs are chomping at the bit to commit. Potter's brother is on the hoops team-he's not going anywhere else. The kid from Lexington is just waiting for the best time-he has said he has already considered verballing, and as for Harrison, he's a Columbus kid, he has been on campus a zillion times and hasn't shown any signs he is overly interested in fun n' sun destinations.
It doesnt matter, we will get players that want to be here. If Jackson Carmen thinks there wont be any pressure at Clemson, he is even more delusional than originally thought. Any major D1 university that competes for new years 6 bowls and national titles year in and year out, there is always going to be maximum pressure, and competition.
Recruiting in general, and yesterday in particular, are prime examples of why, if I was a great coach who had the choice of coaching in the NFL or college football, I could not get to the Sunday league fast enough. I'm a bigger college football fan (although I love the NFL), but recruiting is the LAST thing I'd ever want to be involved with as a coach. I take absolutely zero issue with any player going anywhere he wants to go, but I do take issue with the way some players handle their recruitments. Even for the kids who handle everything the right way and who present as humble, quiet kids who'll only add value to your program, I would still detest having to fly all over creation, walking high school hallways, driving rent-a-cars across different states, and living in hotels all for the privilege of kissing 17 year old ass. I'd much rather live in an NFL city and build my team through the draft and free agency than to beg kids for the chance to coach them. I'm sure mine is a minority opinion on here, but recruiting is a weird, dirty game that would greatly diminish the enjoyment of my job as a college football coach. I guess I'm far more Mike Vrabel than Luke Fickell.
When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's
To be honest, yesterday felt like NCAA 14 where you created a bunch of 99 overall recruits from Columbus, assuming that they would be easy to recruit to Ohio State, only to find out they went somewhere else. Then you just sit there like but, but, but.... I dedicated so many recruiting points to you.
This is definitely where I parked my car.
HAHA... damn just laughed out loud at work... now everyone knows I am not working.... but damn you are spot on!!
Not fun missing out on some elite talent, especially last minute fliips. This class is still stacked, and the depth will still be there. My personal assumption is Carmen wasn't a fit, Woodbey is a 1st rounder with a 1st rounder personality, Jones wanted to be the man, and Cox wanted to be home. Can't knock the kids. On the bright side, Urban has made some major additions: 1. Both interior lines are going to be beefy and fast for the next several of years 2. LB's are stacked with size and athleticism 3. RB's will continue tradition 4.Two ELITE prospects at positions of need, TE and HB
1.) The ones we "missed" on yesterday won't look much like "misses" in hindsight.
2.) At least a little bit of bloom is off the Urban Meyer rose, for a combination of reasons.
3.) Ohio State will compete for another B1G championship next year.
4.) We're gonna beat USC.
Lifetime vs. UM: L 9-1, C 8-0, T 5-0
Ohio State University President Jim Tressel
At least a little bit of bloom is off the Urban Meyer rose, for a combination of reasons.
I agree 100%, LCT. Just like there was some bloom off the Tressel rose after the two title game losses... and then he won Rose and Sugar Bowls and the bloom was back on (at least for a minute). Meyer has absolutely lost some of his shine - being blown out on big stages x3 over the past 11 months, and an offense that has underperformed for two straight years, at least, will do that - but if Ohio State beats USC and if Meyer can finish recruiting in February with a top 3 class then he'll quickly regain some of the mystique that he's unquestionably lost
This deal with Dabo calling Urban "old" is something I think we'll hear lots more of in the years to come.
Agreed... but Meyer perpetuates that perception with his comments, the way he exited Florida, his wife's comments, and the way he's gone about his coaching life since BG. As I said yesterday, he always seems to have one foot partially out the door, or at least that's the impression he gives to more than a few people. Whether that's fair or not is irrelevant... it is what it is.
Another great point. Here's what I know: If I was a CFB head coach competing against Urban Meyer for a prized recruit I would absolutely be saying stuff like "You know, Urban's never stayed in one place very long and now he's a Grandpa....how much longer do you think he'll be the top dog there?"
The same could be said about Nick Saban (age 66) though. Toledo 1 year (1990, didn't know that, according to wikipedia), MSU 5 years, LSU 5 years, Miami Dolphins 2 failed years, and now his current 11 year stint.
I suppose so, but people are also who they are. I am not sure what his wife has said about things like that but people are who they are. If one wants to be honest than there is little promise of any coach sticking around anywhere for any period of time really. Just the way it is, and there is rarely a heads up at all about it.
I imagine it will be used against them for sure, but it would just need to be countered. The Johnson stuff seemed to hurt more with some guys than Meyer. Carmen really looked to be out the door anyway.
If Urban is "old" then what is Saban, a dead man walking?
I'm sure similar stuff is said about Saban.
I don't see this as "negative recruiting," I see it as "competitive contrast."
Especially because it seemed to work.
Agree. To be honest, I hope Urban gets pissed off at himself and realizes what he needs to do as a HC-NOT as a recruiter-to maximize the results on field for the team.
Agreed. The recruiting has always been there. It's the coaching that has lacked.
I agree with your thoughts, but I have to wonder. When you lose so many top recruits in the last couple of weeks (you forgot about Cook), is there more to the story? Did the staff go after the wrong kids, did they miss the signals, did they burn out at the end, did they, in reality, cut the cord to these kids on purpose, or was it just a bunch of unrelated items that had this result? The staff needs to evaluate what happened and confirm it was the later. But it just seems that there were too many loses to be just circumstances. I said this before - such a shame to have a really great class, but end with a bad taste in your mouth.
I didn’t consider Cook because there wasn’t much noise after the initial offer. He liked OSU for its pedigree for getting DBs drafted early in the NFL, but that seems like that was about it.
He said location close to home was a big factor for him and once that became equally as important as getting developed for the NFL, as they say “he gone”
The thing is, with such a wide national reach that Ohio State has focused on, these things will happen more than ever. Carman notwithstanding, all of these kids that flipped or who seemed at one point to be locks are from pretty far distances away. California, Georgia, Texas, etc... when these kids have to add distance as a factor, one little "change" to their recruitment can make all the difference in the world.
Not really, most of the others were not that shocking and it was already known they were flip chances. Distance from home, interest in other programs and so on were all a factor. OSU chose not to take Jones. So really Carmen was the big surprise but the others were all predicted to some degree. At least that they would likely not end up at OSU.
"Let me quote the late great Cornel Sanders, I'm to drunk to taste this chicken"
Oklahoma lost and not making the CFP.
They can say all they want but it comes down to showtime.
What schools did they commit to? Only one went to FSU and a bag man could been the reason there.
We lost to Oklahoma and Iowa and are still going to put a ton of players in the NFL draft in April. I dont think most kids care as much about wins and losses (as evidenced by all the talented players we did get). But some care more about what is cool, hip, and "new and shiny." Much like an 8-year old with ADHD.
"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski
The only one of the bunch that i think warrants reflection is Carman. Character/position need and all of the other excuses go out the window for me personally. Ohio State needs to secure the top player in Ohio every year period. I’m all for Urban’s continent wide recruiting net but there is no reason he can’t secure the top Ohio player every year as well. Whiffing on Carman creates a national media narrative (which is already happening) that the state’s top player doesn’t even want to play here. When you have out of state kids whose only access to the program is the internet, these stories hurt big time. 2nd ranked recruiting class is great but the #1 class and everyone else’s failures are what gets the ink.
if the top ranked player in Ohio is made a priority - for years - by Meyer and staff but the recruit just wants to venture out of state and out on his own...what exactly can Meyer do about that?
Well for one, if Carman was worried about Meyer’s longevity at the program which is what he said was a major factor in his decision to go to Clemson, Meyer could have given Carman the reassurances he needed to stay home and play for the good guys.
we know Carman brought this up to Meyer? and we know Meyer's response?
To clarify ... Carman verbatim said Meyer's longevity was NOT a major factor, but something he did think about. This kid did not want to be in the state of Ohio, could not have been clearer and he stated as such several times. Doesn't matter how good the team is, the coach, the depth chart... sometime you just click elsewhere and as a teenager a chance to experience something new is too much to pass up. This is not on Meyer IMO, you just cant win some battles.
This summer he said if OSU was in any other state he would have committed a long time ago. Then on signing day when talking to a media member he described OSU as "That's all Ohio has". He was being complimentary of the tradition, school, and football program but at the same time he revealed his opinion on the state in general.
Guy obviously isn't going to miss Ohio and wants to build his roots somewhere else. That's going to be a tough battle to win no matter how good of a recruiter you are.
He specifically said it was NOT a major factor but was something he considered. It was pretty clear he was not going to OSU. Not sure what more the staff could have done for the kid. They thought he was coming, so he must have spun some yarns himself to blindside the staff and everybody like that.
Exactly. You can't sell a person on something he never wanted to buy into. It's nobody's loss. If he did come here, pushed by a coach or family, you would not get a kid who is all in. There's nothing you can do about it as a coach. Now if the staff was having other issues with getting top ranked kids in here I would subscribe to your theory that we have problems. We don't. Simple as that.
Fred Davis-Toledo-USC, Trey DePriest-Springfield-Bama-recruitments like Carman's happen every now and again. I guarantee there are a lot of pissed off Sooner fans complaining about Josh Proctor.
The Emory Jones chess match was a weird one to me. It is one thing the way it played out with him toying around with Bama and Auburn and so tight lipped about us. However, I wonder if he saw how this year played out with JTB and wondered how he would play in this system? How our offense tends to crawl into a shell, creatively, in big games thought that somewhere else just may be a better fit for him. If that is what he was thinking then good for him. I mean that in the sense that these kids really only have one chance to get this choice right and if he chose somewhere else because it will better his personal quest then good for him.
On the other hand. If Carmen had no desire to play in Ohio then go f'ing commit somewhere else and stop the nonsense. I will be interested to follow his career. He seems like an odd bird from what I read. After that $hit show last night Woodbey is where he belongs.
The recruiting game has become quite the debacle over the past several years. With all of the media attention, Army and Underarmor All star games, announcement shows where players are pulling puppies out to commit to a program. When you put the spot light on 16 and 17 year old kids you are going to get inconsistent results
I think Woodbey liked being FSU's top recruit. Really liked it. Attention was on him.
I'll be honest (and I'm sure this will sound like sour grapes, but on Carman I've been saying this since September), I think Ohio State dodged a bullet with Carman and Woodbey. They may be great players. They may end up being Freshmen All-Americans, 1st round draft picks, and so on, but the way each handled their recruitments makes me think they would have caused major headaches within the WHAC.
Carman seems to like to hear himself talk, (I'm sure he would rather use the word pontificate) and I get the feeling he thinks very highly of himself. Woodbey, with the shenanigans during his announcement last night, seems more concerned with Twitter followers and being the center of attention. That is my perception, right or wrong.
Good for these guys that they made a decision they feel is best for them, and I hope they succeed just like they plan to.. however, I just don't see how all of that "stuff" plays in a program that is all about brotherhood and playing for one another.
I never had the feeling that Carmen was ever coming to OSU. Though I think Urban probably knew that as well he absolutely had to keep the door open and think that at the end he may want to play close to home.
Also all this crap about Emory Jones and I think it was obvious it came down to playing time and how soon he might see the field. He will probably play next year at Florida and no better then Franks looked he might win the starting job! With that said it didn't look like that here - with Haskins/Burrow and if Martell is as good as people say he has been in practices etc. Jones would of been looking at a definite redshirt and probably 2-3 years before he seen the field. To me it was a no brainer!
All and all with the Clemson 31-0 ass whipping along with the shit show against Oklahoma and freaking Iowa I just think when you mix that in with some negative recruiting and we are not on top of the world like after the 2014 NC. Clemson is "hot" right now after last year NC and this year being #1 in the CFP. Same goes for Georgia, they won the SEC and are in the playoff as well again a "hot" ticket!
Would love to see Urban close out this class with 2 DE's and an OT and this would be a great class IMO....
Tweetgate started the mess. We know what started that. After the Oklahoma game things fell quickly. Loyalty the gift that keeps giving.That said Meyer will bring in a star studded class. OSU will keep on competing as will Clemson,Bama,and Michigan....... wait never mind Michigan it isn’t 1920 no more.
I love the people who think Urban and the staff could do something to have saved Carman from bolting. Outside of backing up a Brinks truck to mama Carman's driveway, there wasn't anything OSU could do to keep that kid from leaving the state. Recruiting experts blew that recruitment big time. Everyone simply assumed he would go to OSU since he was from Ohio. Unfortunately Fairfield is closer to Cincy and we have been spurned there many times. OSU had the longest tenured relationship with Carman, he visited campus by far more than any other school, we recruited him longest etc. Was simply never going to happen.
While I agree, I think the experts views were not just based on him being from Ohio. As you pointed out, he visited OSU a fair bit and had the longest relationship with the coaches. That is enough to predict where 90%+ of recruits are going right there. Not all, but most. But it is clear he wanted out. Particularly in hind sight.
Didn't Coach Meyer say that when a young man offered his verbal commitment it just meant that school was in his final 3? I'm very happy with how things played out yesterday and expect a couple of great additions yet going forward. Go Bucks!
I could care less about the people not in the class. I'd rather have recruits that are 100% in than flakey/premadonna commits. If they don't wanna be here for any reason, fine....bye. Ohio State is ok and bigger than any one recruit.
I remember earlier this year, 11W did an article on recruits that have either flipped or transferred under Urban and in most cases, it turned out as a wash or better for OSU.
Million reasons why a kid would flip. It's still a ridiculous class for ya guys. If you're top 3 in the class rankings, you're golden.
Why do so many believe we are complete set at QB for years? I know JTB was with the program for 5 years because the NFL wasn't calling, but there's certainly a chance we see a Burrow transfer if he graduates and doesn't beat out Haskins, and there's a chance if Haskins lights it up next year he's 1 and done.
We could be looking at Martell & Baldwin battling it out as the sole survivors next spring.
There's a chance of an asteroid hitting The Horseshoe and vaporizing everything in a 20 mile radius too. Some fans take the long view and realize that shit happens-you plan ahead and much through it when it happens-but you don't turn into internet chicken little over every potentiality.
Also, in your flawed scenario, you are assuming tOSU signs zero QBs in the 19' class-which ain't happening. 3 scholarship QBs on roster is one less than Urban prefers, but it isn't panic time.
That’s because it’s the off-season (even though we have a game in a week). Urban’s offenses need two QBs, and your backup had better be ready to be The Man late in the season. Wilson had some banged up QBs in his offense at Indiana. We’ll need depth at QB, for certain.
I'd expect OSU will be bringing in 2 QBs in the 2019 class. Every few QB cycles its inevitable due to someone leaving early or transferring.
I gotta go with Urbz on this one; it’s harder to be the leader of a recruit. Think Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia did hardly anything during the summer yet they are all moving ahead. Staying behind the pack and attacking the leader surging ahead later as every school gangs up on the leader. Especially kids now a days, kids side with other kids and have bad attention issues. Since I don’t tweet at recruits I do have to complain a bit; Carmen wanted out of Ohio, yet is going to South Carolina? A state that has worse education, poverty, and production statistics, basically the arm pit of the coast. Woodbey, fell for a coach with no DC, no DB’s coach, no prior contact, and Taggart who is under .500 as a head coach. These two made feelings decisions as evidenced by their recent tweets. They would like to be treated as adults yet when they get what all adults receive (negative attention) they get upset.
More good points