Game of Thrones -- Season 7 -- Season Finale -- Aired episode and book spoiler discussion

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Frimmel's picture

I'm really at a bit of a loss for what to expect from the finale. I'd think the big twist would be something on the lines of Clyburn looking at the wight our crew have brought to Cersei and going "Meh. I can do better."

On a more serious note it will be good to have a large number of characters all in the same place at clearly the same time. 

So will the big moment be at the summit? At Winterfell with Arya dispatching Littlefinger and stealing his face? Or will it be the Night King breaching the wall in some fashion and reminding us of General Patton's wisdom that fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man? 

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logamaniac's picture

I think the nk ends the episode in some fashion, either passing over/through the wall or they may go so far as to show the air turn to frozen breath at winterfel or one of the other northern strongholds and then pan over to show the blizzard that normally precedes the nk or the nk proper.  

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

I'd have to imagine the NK makes it pretty damn far...we've got an hour and a half long episode tonight. Unless they REALLY slow things down, events have been happening at a break neck pace.

I'm thinking Arya has already taken a face or 2 at Winterfell, we just haven't been shown who yet. With her current level of bad-assery, I can't imagine Littlefinger playing her that easily. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Pretty much yes to all of the above.  

And, we'll throw in a Jaime walking away from Cersei for good measure. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

We could potentially get the Clegane Bowl tonight if Dany brings The Hound along as part of her entourage (I'm imagining right now that Jon will probably be there, and he might bring The Hound along as a bodyguard to complement Tormund).

Imagine--everyone's playing the posturing game, Cersei and Dany having it out, and then, in the middle of their bickering, The Mountain's eyes turn blue.

Up steps The Hound to take his brother out for good.

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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Frimmel's picture

I don't think a wight can make other wights. Not a bad theory though but we don't know how exactly The Mountain is brought back. Drogo was resurrected but he didn't have any there there to function like The Mountain. 

I don't think there will end up being any violence at the summit unless the wight is no longer functioning when they get there. 

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

@ Frimmel: I wasn't suggesting a wight can make other wights, what I was suggesting is that the Night King might be able to reach out vast distances and take control of an undead body like the Mountain. Farfetched, and I doubt it happens, but it would be cool.

@SonofBuckeye: Yes, they fought alongside one another at the Battle of Blackwater and had a bit of an argument beforehand.

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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Frimmel's picture

Well we didn't see that but I think the NK needs to be in some measure of proximity either himself or via a WW to animate and control the dead. 

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SonOfBuckeye's picture

...if Dany brings The Hound along as part of her entourage...

Have Sandor and Bronn met?

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brunstar's picture

Imagine what would happen in the NK rides Viscerion all the way to King's Landing, kills Danny's army outside the walls of the city, then lands and raises them all from the dead.

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Frimmel's picture

If the NK burns them down with Viserion there won't be anything left for the NK to raise. Might not yet be cold enough in King's Landing for the NK. 

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brunstar's picture

Not if the dragon breathes ice.

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Buckeyeman's picture

I believe the wall is being reached tonight. If the night kings dragon breathes fire then he could definetly put a hole in the wall. 

I think when all the major players see the wight there will be a collective WTF is that thing moment. I don't think clegan bowl is happening yet. 

Go Bucks

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NorCal Buckeye's picture

Anybody else wonder why Jon and the Dirty Dozen forgot about all that dragon glass they just mined?

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hetuck's picture

I can see a dragon glass tip to the ADW (anti-dragon weapon.) Paging Bronn. 

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

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Frimmel's picture

They didn't forget. They were using it during the fight. Some hullaballo was made by The Hound in switching over to the dragonglass weapons. 

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Redlegs1000's picture

One of my nitpicks about last weeks episode was the lack of dialogue regarding this.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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KBonay's picture
 

I know GOT's people have dismissed this, but it was pretty crazy that it did happen, if by accident.  Longclaw 'opening' it's eye(s).

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

What would the significance of that be?

And did you seriously catch that live as it was shown? If so, I feel ashamed even thinking I know what's going on. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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KBonay's picture

Significance?  No clue. 

Did I see it, no.  But there were a ton of people who did and started tweeting about it. 
 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Longclaw's eyes are clear crystal. That's the light changing behind the sword as Jon's hand comes out of the water. Apparently you can see this happen in other scenes as well.  

http://nerdist.com/longclaw-eyes-game-of-thrones-jon-snow-sword/

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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RunEddieRun1983's picture

With only a total (counting tonight) of 7 episodes left, the pedal should be to metal, and I think this hour and a half tonight will be fairly action packed. 

I have no clue what to expect, but I really hope they start to tie up the loose ends and give us an idea of what to expect next season.

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

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Barfolomew's picture

Here's how I see things playing out:

Start out at the Wall. NK uses the ice dragon to freeze the lake and walk around the wall.

At Winterfell, Arya and Littlefinger's situation escalates. Turns out Arya's been playing him the whole time. She goes in for the kill, but is interrupted by a wight. Army of the dead kills all of Winterfell.

Zoom to King's landing. The major characters meet. Tensions start rising as they discuss how to go forward, Cersei resists an alliance. Out of nowhere NK and co. come in and kill everybody. Epilogue rolls, says the Army of the Dead killed everyone everywhere.

Next season is all about their lives as Wights, in a sitcom format. They bring in Steve Carell to play the Night King. He has a hard time managing the Wights, they are unmotivated and lazy. The Wights decide to unionize for better beneftis. Hilarity ensues.

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Is there a Wight Schrute that is the assistant to the NK?

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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Jumar's picture

Assistant NK.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Ok, have to say this...either I'm in the small cross section of Office fans who also watch GOT, or this isn't as funny as I think it is.  Only 4 UVs?  I was literally chuckling while typing it. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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logamaniac's picture

I think you overestimate how many people read our nerd thread

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Maybe I did...they get a ton of comments, but it's from a small # of members. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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Jumar's picture

It's right up there in hilarity with imitation crab.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Frimmel's picture

That is an "The Office" reference? Not that funny to me as I have to have it explained. I never watched the US version of The Office. 

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Jumar's picture

If you can get through the first season it gets funny.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Rocket Man's picture

I am so glad that I am caught up on all the episodes now.  I usually try not to expect much from movies or TV shows, but the creative team in charge of GOT has created some unbelievable episodes.

Now that I've said that, watch it all turn out to be a dream that Bran started in season one ... then I'd be POd.

"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad."

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

I pray I don't hear "Don't Stop Believin" as Jon Snow is walking into a tavern to meet with Arya, Sansa, and Bran, and then the screen goes black.  

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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Hovenaut's picture

Can't believe we're here, short season...but still went by too quick.

Ready for the finale. Thanks for running the threads all season, Frimmel.

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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KBonay's picture

I'm guessing we end on something like this

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Hovenaut's picture

Yeah...we may get some questions answered, but I'm sure we'll be left hanging until next for others.

Littlefinger must go down.

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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Rocket Man's picture

Go Arya and Sansa!

"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad."

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

The wall is going down or the lake gets frozen. Night's Watch overun 

Someone at Winterfell is dying. Sansa, Ayra or LF...I am saying Brianne kills LF

Hound v the Mountain. Hound wins

Sam figures out who Jon really is

Something important with Bran will happen

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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NorCal Buckeye's picture

What was that passage his girl kept repeating about divorce and remarrying he was ignoring before he decided to say F it and leave town? Was it just me or was it a clue about Jon's lineage?

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Frimmel's picture

The High Septon gave Rhaegar an annulment and married him to Lyanna Stark making Jon the legitimate son of the crown prince and thus second in line to the Iron Throne. 

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Jsstull's picture

I told my buddy a Lannister would die. I'm probably wrong. 

O-H-I-O

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logamaniac's picture

I think if the Hound and Mountain fight then at some point Tormund involves himself, either killing the mountain or damaging the mountain and distracting him so that the hound finishes him even if it means Tormund dies tonight. 

They made too big if a deal with the Hound saving Tormund last sunday for there not to be some sort of reciprocation later.

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brunstar's picture

Yes!  Littlefinger finally gets what's coming to him!

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Jumar's picture

That was a long time coming. 

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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brunstar's picture

Well I guess the great ice-breathing vs fire breathing undead dragon debate can be put to bed.

The answer was blue fire.

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Frimmel's picture

And brought The Wall down into the sea. Looked like Tormund and Dondarion made it though. Now they run for Castle Black although I'd guess Bran has the news already. 

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Hovenaut's picture

DUUUDE...

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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KBonay's picture

LOL, even the boss getting in on it.

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brunstar's picture

Here's a shout out to Jon "Aegon Targaryen" Snow.
 

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KBonay's picture

Is it incest if you didn't know?

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brunstar's picture

/S Shut up dude, Danny is really hot.  Can't you just be happy for the guy and enjoy the awkward  family reunion later?

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KBonay's picture

So Danny, how was the trip?

Not bad, got a couple inches of Snow

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Jumar's picture

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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brunstar's picture

/S The guy finally got laid for the first time since season 3 and all you can talk about is how "she's his aunt."

Also, I think caves are Jon's go to move, he's 2 for 2.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I'll bet Jon wakes up with some serious Dragon breath. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Frimmel's picture

Yes. It is innocent though if you don't know. 

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Rocket Man's picture

It' perfectly fine for Targaerians. Or Lannisters.

"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad."

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Jumar's picture

One more season after this is really not enough. They could devote another season to the fight and the final season to how the game of thrones actually ends.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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KBonay's picture

There will be a prequel.

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Jumar's picture

True, but I would rather see this closed out properly. This entire season was rushed with quite a few plot holes.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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KBonay's picture

True.  But I am satisfied with the extra-long finale and how they wrapped most of the loose ends up.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Next season is purported to be 6 feature films.  90-120 minutes each.  Could be enough time to defrost the IK, and still resolve the real Game of Thrones.  Clearly, to me, King Aegon is the future of the Iron Throne.  I think Dany dies in the final battle.  (Maybe taking out the Blue Dragon?)  Personally, I'm banking on the Ice King wearing khaki pants for the final battle.

On the wall guarding the North Coast from all Weasel invasions.

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Daniel's picture

I think the Night King will end up "this close" and will whine the rest of the show about it.

Va Buck

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BeatTTUN's picture

Nice bizarre love triangle between The Hound, Tormund and Jamie with Brienne

So The Night King can ride a dragon that is rather problematic

We have to tell him

Bran is the ultimate peeping tom

Go Buckeyes Beat Michigan

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Jumar's picture

Who ends up with Brienne?

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

The bear from season three. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Isn't that a love square?  Or is it a three dimensional, love pyramid?  Math is hard.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Think he spies on Sansa in his spare time?

On the wall guarding the North Coast from all Weasel invasions.

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Barfolomew's picture

I'm starting to think that suicide mission north of the wall was a bad idea. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I thought everyone pretty much determined that mission was stupid from the jump.  That was a total James T. Kirk move if I ever saw one.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Barfolomew's picture

It was sarcasm, that was a terrible idea. They could all be dancing on Cersei's grave right now instead they're riding north to meet their death while she plans to kill them if they manage to survive.

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Barfolomew's picture
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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

That was fucking boss. The first episode of the final season will always have to be the WW attacking Winterfell. Its like right around the corner.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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Redlegs1000's picture

Rumors are they may need to delay release until 2019. Whatever it takes to get it right!

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Have to give the writers credit for keeping viewers in the blind about Arya/Sansa/Bran playing Littlefinger. That was very well done.  As soon as we saw Bran in the room with Sansa, I guessed that it was all theater. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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KBonay's picture

True, but I would have rather seen Arya remove a face (Sansa) and stick Littlefinger with needle after he conspires to have her killed.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

She would have to kill Sansa to harvest her face, though.  I just don't see Martin turning the Wolves on each other.  That scene with Nymeria was the clue for me.  Arya had to go back to the pack. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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logamaniac's picture

Does she though or is it just in the preparation of the body like we saw in the temple 

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KBonay's picture

It's been discussed, she doesn't need to kill for the face. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I must have missed that.  I was under the impression the Men of Many Faces only used the faces they kept in their temple.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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KBonay's picture

Hell, I don't know.  Someone on here in one of these threads said no.  I always thought they needed to be dead.  I did find this:

Remember the season six scene in which Arya saw her Faceless Man mentor Jaqen H'ghar (Tom Wlaschiha) die, before The Waif removed her own face to reveal Jaqen's underneath? (Not to mention the rather Star Wars-esque hallucinatory sequence that followed, in which Arya removed a succession of faces from the dead man she had believed to be Jaqen, before finally seeing her own?)

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Frimmel's picture

That is all solved now. There will be some disagreement with Jon about bending the knee to his aunt but the Starks are all on side now. Everyone who ends up in Winterfell at the start of next season maybe not be BFFs but nobody will be at one another's throats. 

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KBonay's picture

Here they come....

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I have to say, I'm a little disappointed that the latest version of The Mountain (I think they're on their third actor) isn't as big as he was in season one.  Rewatch the fight between the Hound and the Mountain at the tournament, and the Mountain is nearly a foot taller.  Tonight they were almost looking eye to eye.  

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Frimmel's picture

It is the same actor as it's been since the season he fought Oberon. He is the third but it is the same guy it's been for many season now. He seemed at least a head taller than The Hound to me. 

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logamaniac's picture

I think they overcompensate now to make the hound and the mountain seem more like brothers on equal physical footing so you wouldn't assume the mountain just dominates him. 

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Frimmel's picture

So there is the end of Littlefinger. I was very disappointed that he begged like a little bitch but I suppose it was to be expected. 

I liked the scene in the dragonpit. Euron... 

Clyburn with the look of admiration was pretty creepy. 

So is Jon soon to become father of dragons? The man who always does right breaking all the rules. 

Cersei seems to actually be pregnant. They didn't fool me on the threats to Jamie. She didn't axe Tyrion there was no way she was going to do Jamie. Can take me a bit to sort the rest of duplicity out. Malicious doesn't even begin to cover it anymore. 

Sam back in the North is cool. We'll have a whole passel of our characters in Winterfell at the start of next season it seems. 

What did Bronn and Pod talk about while drinking? Did anyone see him/them come back? 

So was that fire or ice putting a whole in the wall? 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Jaime keeps an oath and rides north. Big news.

And he has a Valeryan steel sword. Also big news.  

Could the Kingslayer also slay the Night King?

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Heckuva theory on the Kingslayer getting to the NK. I like it. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

And midway through the battle, Jaime says, "I know something you don't know. I am not left handed."

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Frimmel's picture

Well if you give Clyburn some wights to study and experiment with. He and Jaime might pioneer the first limb replacement in Westeros. 

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Hovenaut's picture

Ditto.

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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osu992's picture

I was hoping he'd become Queenslayer before NightKingslayer, but I guess the pregnancy put an end to that.

But Cersei was so over the top with letting Tyrion know she was pregnant that it's still possible she's faking it...but Jaime gone...so it doesn't matter.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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Redlegs1000's picture

Hmmm. Must needs a dragonglass hand?

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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TUNBUCK89's picture

I like this a lot. Because maybe what Jon said about Dragonglass being more valuable than gold isn't really true. Maybe Dragonglass & Valyrian steel can't kill the NK but gold does. And who has a golden hand and who's named Kingslayer: Jamie!.

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Redlegs1000's picture

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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logamaniac's picture

I don't think dragonglass or valy steel can kill the nk technically.  I think someone will have to remove the shard of dragonglass from his chest and we only know that the two things that can pierce walker skin are those two items. 

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Frimmel's picture

The key is Arya's dagger. They didn't make a big deal of bringing that back just because of a loose end or needing it to help convict Littlefinger. It wouldn't have been in Sam's book early on if it were just that. 

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Redlegs1000's picture

I think the Cat'spaw dagger's significance begins at it being Valyrian steel and ends with it being the instrument that started the War of the 5 Kings by attempting to assassinate Bran. There is no other reference to it in books or the show. For them to introduce another ex machine in the last season would be pretty lazy. I really hope they don't do that. There are several more significant swords, Dawn for example, that would be much more story friendly.

One V Sword "Blackfyre" was wielded by Aegon I Targaryan (The Conquerer) and was lost in the Blackfyre rebellion.

Another "Dark Sister", wielded by Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers. AKA former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, AKA The Three-eyed Raven

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Frimmel's picture

None of those other weapons have been talked about in the show. It is too late to unearth some long lost Targaryen weapon. If they are going to require something other than "any" Valyrian steel such as one of the five weapons we already have -- Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail, Arya's Dagger, Tarly family sword logically the dagger they showed as being in an ancient text from the restricted section of the Citadel library would be the one. It may very well be just as you say. That would be fine. 

I think though it would be far more deus ex machina for some weapon we've never had a glimpse or mention of in seven seasons of the show to be needed over any of the other Valyrian steel weapons we already know if some special weapon will be required to end the Night King.

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Redlegs1000's picture

I think though that several plot points seem to be converging on Essos for the next season.

Euron and the Golden Company (the Golden Company were used and founded by Targaryens related to the Blackfyre rebellion).

Melissandre is heading there to bring something back to help.

There is still the prophecies concerning Asshai which are mentioned in show canon.

Something in Essos will come into play I think.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Ahh Saturday's picture

The Cat's Paw dagger becomes even more significant if one gives any credence to the "Bran is the Night King" theories running around out there. It was used by an assassin to try to kill him, perhaps it will have to be used to kill him as the NK? Or maybe the dagger is necessary to separate Bran from the Night King.

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Redlegs1000's picture

This is a theory that just needs to stop, and for so many reasons that it is impossible.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Frimmel's picture

How did that noise even get started? Why does it persist? 

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logamaniac's picture

Pretty sure it revolves around people wanting to get out in front of a twist so they can say "told you I saw it before anyone" regardless of its impossibility. 

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Ahh Saturday's picture

First, let me be clear that I am not advancing this theory. I will, however, admit that it is interesting to me, and am a little surprised at the intensity of your dismissal of it. The Hodor episode already showed that Bran can affect events that occurred before he was born. The Tower of Joy episode showed that people could be at least dimly aware of his presence in the past. We have already seen he was able to witness the creation of the Night King and is able to physically interact with him. Add to this all the increasing significance given to the Cat's Paw dagger through this past season, and one can at least say that the showrunners are not discouraging such speculation. I say all this because I am honestly interested in the "many reasons" that exist to reject this theory outright as you seem to do.

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Redlegs1000's picture

Because I'm not as good a writer as I'd like to be the following article sums it up nicely.

https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/game-thrones-bran-night-king-theory/

To further summarize, Bran cannot travel back in time, nor can he change the past by influencing others. Brynden says as much.

Bran cannot warg into the Night King in the past, he can barely control ravens near the NK. Nor can he time travel.

We saw the Night King actually being created by the CotF. The same CotF that harbored Bran in the cave.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Ahh Saturday's picture

Appreciate the response and the link, but have to say I'm not persuaded and have some counter arguments of my own. 

First, to paraphrase our 42nd president, much depends on what "is" is. Bran does not have to be physically the man who was killed to create the Night King, he can inhabit him in some magical way, warging, etc. 

Second, the writer of the article you linked spends a lot of effort dismantling the various arguments put forth by the redditor allegedly responsible for birthing this theory. However, this is a bit of a straw man. Bran doesn't have to have been Bran the Builder, or have driven the Mad King mad in order to be the Night King.

Third, many of the main points of the article can be countered with a simple, "but Bran is still learning." Warging into Hodor doesn't represent the limits of Bran's abilities, just the crude beginnings. The fact that Ned only heard Bran as a "faint whisper" could be due to Ned's limits rather than Bran's, but also an indication that Bran is just developing his skills. Who's to say he won't get better at it?

Finally, don't forget that this is a show, meaning that there is no reason to assume that the show runners will demand the same rigor of the writers as certain critics might. Any time travel story withers under scrutiny. People love them anyway.

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Frimmel's picture

Why would Bran become the Night King? Strictly from a Bran as a character perspective. Why would he choose that? How would such a situation come about? How would such a situation be maintained? 

Then from a wider story perspective why would Bran become the Night King? What would be the point in the overall story for that? 

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Ahh Saturday's picture

Then from a wider story perspective why would Bran become the Night King? What would be the point in the overall story for that? 

Reasonable question, and the honest answer is that I'm not sure that it does. Nevertheless, I'll offer two ways that it might.

First, one complaint that at least a couple posters in this very thread have made about the Night King is what is his end game, his motivation? Is he simply a manifestation of pure evil driven by his evilness to vanquish all in his path for the sake of evil? Maybe, and maybe that's enough, but it doesn't really reflect the nuance of good and evil that GRRM has always given his characters. However, linking him with Bran in whatever wargy, magical way they might connects him to the story, perhaps clarifies his motivations (in ways that I'll grant the paid writers of the show the ability to flesh out) and threads him into the fates of our beloved characters, in a way that just leaving him as an external force of evil does not.

Second, from the beginning of the show, the Starks have stood at its center. Certainly the show subverted our expectations of what that might mean by executing Ned and then the slaughter of the Red Wedding, but still the Starks in the form of Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Jon have remained at the show's heart. That group can basically be divided into two smaller groups, those that have been engaged in the game of thrones, the petty politics of Westeros (Sansa and Arya), and those more connected to the longer epic, the song of ice and fire (Jon and Bran). This past season was all about emphasizing the pettiness of the game. With the wall down and the dead marching, the games of Westerosi Littlefingers are irrelevant. This means that Sansa and Arya have been left on the wrong side of the story for the final season. On the other hand, Bran and Jon have always been part of the long game and have both been connected in different ways to the Night King. The problem is that Jon is not a Stark, well, his momma was, but still, his name is Targareyen. The implication of this is that the Starks, who have been sold to the audience as central to the narrative for seven seasons, might find themselves somehow marginalized, if not totally irrelevant, in the final season. Binding Bran to the Night King avoids that fate and asserts the importance of one of the best know quotes of the show, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

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Redlegs1000's picture

I'm not sure we are watching the same show. Jon has no relationship with Bran. Bran is not a central character. Of all the chapters in the books Tyrion has had 49, Jon has had 40, Dany and Arya have had over 30. Bran has had 21. That's 4 chapters per book (he's not in FfC. There would have been a clue at some point that Bran was a more important character. You're basically saying that Bran is the NK because of guessing. Bran has had almost no screen time in the penultimate season of the show.

Warging into the Night King is not an option, there is no evidence that he can warg into complex minds. He can't even warg into ravens around the NK. You say, "yet"? There are only 6 episodes remaining. It simply isn't feasible. Nor would I want to watch it.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Ahh Saturday's picture

I think we are watching the same show, and I never said that Jon and Bran have a relationship. Rather I said that they are both Starks, or were both Starks, and that they both are more connected to the epic of fire and ice than the Stark sisters. However, if you don't think Bran is central to the show, perhaps we are watching different ones. His centrality is not determined by his screen time, but what happens during his screen time. Also, I am not saying that Bran is the Night King at all. Not my theory, and I'm not convinced of it myself. What I am saying is that those who dismiss the possibility don't have particularly compelling reasons for doing so. Finally, regarding Bran's warging abilities, yes, I do say "yet" because the show says "yet." The old Three-eyed Raven himself indicated that Bran was not yet ready, but would have to grow into his role. What is dramatic television if not character growth? There are 90-minute movies that allow for such character growth. Don't see any reason a roomful of good writers can't do it in six hour-plus long episodes.

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logamaniac's picture

How about the fact that the guy we see get made into the nk was speaking in the tongue of the first men.  Bran can't speak other languages just because he can see back in time.  That should be enough to walk back that theory. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I'm not sure we are watching the same show. Jon has no relationship with Bran. Bran is not a central character

RedLegs1000 - We're definitely not watching the same show/story.

1) Jon and Bran grew up together at Winterfell. They've know each other for Bran's entire existence.  And Bran, until the season finale, is the only person who knows the truth about Jon's parents.

2) Bran is absolutely at the heart of everything that has happened thus far in the story. One could argue that, in fact, Bran is the central character of the entire story.  Jaime pushing Bran out the window and Littlefinger's attempted murder of Bran was the catalyst for the War of the Five Kings.

3) As for the books, the TV show has passed the book timeline.  Bran's story has been a sideline in the books until he can become the Three-Eyed Raven. His chapter count up to now has little to do with his importance as a character; and my sense is he'll have more chapters as the story progresses.  That would be akin to saying Cersei isn't a central character because she's only had 12 chapters (two per book) so far, just over half of Bran's total.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Redlegs1000's picture

I'm talking about Bran and Jon in a relationship within the context of the on screen relationship. Sure they are "brothers/cousins" and grew up together but there is no relationship as far as creating drama in any way that the main protagonist and a major antagonist (Bran=NK theory) should be subject to a major clash that is a central point to the story.

In no way is Bran central to the story as we have witnessed it. The evidence of this is the screen time of Bran. Yes he was pushed out the window that is a shitty thing that happened, but it was one of many shitty things that happened that led to war. Ned's beheading, Sansa's letter, Jon Arryn's poisoning can all carry the same weight as Bran being pushed. It's central to his character yes, but it is not the central focus of the show, just a branch of GRRM's tree.

When chapters are written in first person POV, then it is necessary to get the point of the view of the most important characters, is it not? And the Three Eyed Raven himself has said what the limitations are for Bran as THE Three Eyed Raven. He in no way has said that Bran has surpassed his own abilities including time travel, time warging, changing the past with any communications. He's said the contrary.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Yes he was pushed out the window that is a shitty thing that happened, but it was one of many shitty things that happened that led to war. Ned's beheading, Sansa's letter, Jon Arryn's poisoning can all carry the same weight as Bran being pushed. It's central to his character yes, but it is not the central focus of the show, just a branch of GRRM's tree.

I view Bran's attempted murder as the root, not a branch of the tree.  The push, followed by the knife attack, led to Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner.  This leads to Tywin turning the Mountain loose in the Riverlands, Ned calling Tywin an enemy of the crown, and Cersei taking Ned captive which ends in his beheading.  Jon Arryn died (Littlefinger's doing) and no wars started.

As Jon has repeatedly said, everything up to now has been leading to the showdown with the Night King.  Essentially we've been watching seven seasons of Prologue.  I truly believe you're going to see Bran take a much larger role as the story progresses.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Redlegs1000's picture

We'll have to agree to disagree.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Frimmel's picture

The NK's motivation is that he was created to destroy The First Men. The Children of the Forest created the Night King and White Walkers as an army to defend themselves against The First Men. Like many a doomsday weapon it went awry and turned on its makers. It wants to destroy men because that is its reason for existing. Why the NK turned on its makers and how much of his present focus is original and how much is what he took for himself is not known but killing men is one of the Night King's primary reasons for being. 

Jon is a Stark by blood if not name. He was raised a Stark. His brother and sisters now cousins are Starks. Winterfell will be a main fortress in the battle too come. Bran will be key in telling us how to defeat the Night King by looking into the past. Sansa will be important in keeping the northern lords on point and watching Jon's back. Arya in training all the little "no ones" or just fighting. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Bran does not need to be the Night King to keep the Starks central to the story. 

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logamaniac's picture

Interestingly we saw in the wights a lot of different races and creatures but have you ever seen a cotf wight?  I didn't. 

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sword52's picture

Interesting. I was thinking so what if the Night King and his army happened to destroy or kill all the living. Then what??

It is also intriguing how the Night King has so little known about him. A very mysterious creature or thing.

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Redlegs1000's picture

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I stopped reading that article when the author wrote, "seeing Bran caused Hodor's seizure."  He has no clue what he's writing about, and clearly didn't even watch that episode.  He has zero credibility.

Oh, and BTW, his article was disproving the "Bran is the Night King" theory.

If Bran were the Night King, why not just start raising the dead in crypts of Winterfell?  How is he in two places at once?

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Redlegs1000's picture

Which article?

I like the thought that sometimes the simplest answer is the right answer. There are very very few episodes left, I don't see them spending even one of them explaining time travel paradoxes and introducing new themes at this point. Besides I think the NK will get wrapped up before the conclusion of the actual Game. Wouldn't we have to care about Bran a little bit more to care that in order to kill the NK or whatever, we need to kill Bran? He's not even a central character at this point, he's a plot device.

This is almost as annoying as the "World is not Round Theory" that's been floating around since about 1996.

Unlike that theory however, GRRM has a tremendous axe to grind with showrunners and I believe he won't literally come out and say any more about what the book world actually is. What better way to sell more books and stick it to HBO?

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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logamaniac's picture

I think this guy has been drinking the wildfire

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logamaniac's picture

So the dragon has Godzilla nuclear breath.  I wonder if it rolls fire damage, magic damage or physical damage. 

Nice to see Jaime give up on cersei.  I now double down on the baby being euron's. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

My money's on the Mountain. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Frimmel's picture

I'm surprised that the baby seems to be real. I was pretty sure it was a textbook psycho hose-beast maneuver. I think it is Jamie's but that she'll try to pass it off as Euron's. She probably gave it up when they planned their little play of him taking off home.

This also makes Theon's quest important. As he'll go off to the Iron Islands and no fleet. 

I can go with Godzilla Nuclear Breath. I'm going to go with physical damage and magical damage. Everything seems to just sort of implode as opposed to be set on fire. 

I liked Jamie walking out too. I liked how he was totally behind marshalling the forces and marching north. I wonder how his officers will handle the change in plans. They didn't see the wight though.  

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logamaniac's picture

Yeah when the wall was getting busted up nothing melted so I don't think the ud dragon has heat

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smith288's picture

+1 Wayne's World reference.

The down vote is a mighty tool. Use it on idiots, not differing opinions.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

No one has mentioned Theon Greyjoy coming around. He's been born again hard. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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logamaniac's picture

Fighting some random drunk rapist and going eye to eye with euron are two different leagues. 

Plus theon can't fight for shit so obviously he wasn't paying attention during his time at winterfel. 

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Frimmel's picture

There might be hope for him afterall. Loved Snow's "What are you still talking to me for?" Hated the sequence on the beach though. All that horrible shaky cam gave away that there would be a fight. Laughing at the shots to his groin was pretty funny though. Theon will be the one who figures out that Euron hasn't gone home. 

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osu992's picture

After getting his blessing/forgiveness from Jon, I thought he was walking into a certain death by pummeling. Not quite sure how he was reinvigorated by a kick to the groin, but whatever...

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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NorCal Buckeye's picture

Yeah, that made no sense at all to me. Got his ass whooped, barely standing, then just because he there are no gonads he magically is revitalized and his opponent crumbles? Nope.

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

His opponent was clearly gassing. And I think the no nads part was kinda the opponents last gasp to get Theon to stay down, and when that clearly didn't work, Theon got his 2nd wind...it's also not real. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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Frimmel's picture

I think it makes a lot of sense. He gets a swift kick to the nads but it doesn't drop him. Now his weakness, his no longer a man-ness, the parts of him cut away leaving no Theon left are no longer a burden, no longer something to be used against him, no longer something to hurt him with. Now he can draw strength and power and resilience from the horrors done to him. He can accept that he's done his penance and can now truly step up and earn his redemption. 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Not sure there's anything that P can do to redeem himself at this point.  Him standing idly by while Sansa was being raped pretty much condemned him, now all he can really muster up is a nice sacrificial death. 

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Redlegs1000's picture

Well since Euron is headed for Essos to get the Golden Company. Theon may very well be heading to an empty Iron Islands and rescue Yara and at the very least, figure out the real plot behind Euron's deception.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Frimmel's picture

I don't want to let this go. I don't want to re-hash that topic of conversation. 

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Redlegs1000's picture

I like this. I also felt that in that moment he actually took some ownership of all the things that have happened to him.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Frimmel's picture

Exactly what I was getting at. 

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KnuckIfYouBuck's picture

So hypothetically speaking, if Jon managed to get Dany pregnant there, do you think that the whole "not be able to have children thing" is BS or would they try to pull some ridiculous shit and have her be pregnant with another dragon?

"Life's a garden, dig it." -Joe Dirt

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logamaniac's picture

Well technically she was never pregnant with any dragons. 

Metaphorically she walked into fire with the dragon eggs and a point could be made that a targaryan (100%) child would also be "a dragon"

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Frimmel's picture

There was also the part where the child by Drogo that was stillborn was scaled/deformed. So maybe it was a new race of dragon/man hybrid? Lots of incest for the Targeryens. A little more creates...?

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I just rewatched that episode last night.  They said it was born with batwings, too.  Not sure if it was the dark magic that made it that way, or if it really was part dragon.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Frimmel's picture

A fire-breathing man with wings? Sounds like a stallion who could mount the world to me. 

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JakeStevensIsSwag's picture

its led to believe that she can have children in the books. so she probably can in the show.

If i could change my username, i would

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TUNBUCK89's picture

Dany was told "Only death pays for life". I think the show is going to have Dany have a child from Jon since the price has been paid by Viserion's death.

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Or she dies giving birth. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I've been thinking about that possibility for both Danaerys and Cersei.

Cersei's fortuneteller said she would be "choked by the vanquar", which apparently is High Valerian for 'little brother'.  It never said 'her' little brother, which leaves a lot of room to maneuver if you're GRRM.  There seems to be a lot of emphasis on this baby lately.  I wouldn't be surprised if the baby killed Cersei in child birth, just like her mother.

Perhaps Dany has a child, which kills her in childbirth kharmatically for the child she sacrificed for Drogo, and this child is the Prince Who Was Promised.  The one who leads the world out of darkness.  John could still slay the Night King, and their child starts a dynasty that "lasts a thousand years."

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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osu992's picture

When Jon questioned the qualifications of her previous OBGYN, was hoping for a clear-cut "actually, the last kid scarred my uterus pretty good and I haven't bled since." Looks like we're taking the long route.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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logamaniac's picture

We talk about what happens when aegon finds out he banged his aunt but what happens when dany realizes she's been kicked down the totem. 

Does she freak out that it's her nephew?  Does she go back to Essos in shame perhaps pregnant and unmarried?  Does she have a bastard with aegon?

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Frimmel's picture

I think it depends largely on how much of a toss Jon and Dany give about being blood relatives. If they don't at all they'll just rule together. Not unheard of for that family. There will be a re-evaluation but I don't think the news will set Dany and Jon at odds. Bran will likely need to have a "creepy" moment with Dany to prove his credibility. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Just a theory on my part, but if Jon is Azor Ahai, and Lightbringer can only come to life when it's 'thrust into his beloved's heart', does he have to sacrifice Dany with the Catspaw Dagger to kill the Night King?  And does he marry Sansa to unite the Seven Kingdoms?  At least Sansa would only be his cousin, right?

Or, is Jaime Azor Ahai, and he has to thrust Widow's Wail into Cersei, and we find out that he holds Lightbringer?

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

I like Theory #2 a lot better, and it also seems more likely. Cersei is the most expendable main character at this point. She only serves one purpose: complicating the final action by undermining the heroes while the White Walkers are attacking.

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

How do we know a male has to be Azor Ahai? Could it be Dany? I was doing some reading and found this...

Azor Ahai
• According to prophecy, Azor Ahai will appear “when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers.” The first bit is likely a reference to the comet that appeared in A Clash of Kings (though there are other interpretations) and the second seems to be a reference to the Long Night.
• Azor Ahai will be born or reborn “amid smoke and salt,” as you may recall from this scene.
• He or she will “wake dragons out of stone.”
• Finally, the new Azor Ahai will reforge the great flaming sword Lightbringer, which the original Azor Ahai made by plunging the blade into the heart of his beloved wife, Nissa Nissa. It’s safe to assume the new sword will require a similar sacrifice.

Dany fits all of those. 

Daenerys Targaryen
• Appeared when the red star bleeds? In both books and show, shortly after the dragons were born, a red comet appeared in the sky.
• Born amid smoke and salt? She was born on an island in the middle of a powerful storm, so there’s the salt. She was reborn as the Mother of Dragons on Drogo’s funeral pyre, so there’s the smoke.
• Woke dragons out of stone? Yup! Her dragon eggs were thought to be mere baubles, until she, you know, hatched dragons out of them. 
• Sacrificed a loved one to create a powerful weapon? She euthanized Drogo, then stepped into his funeral pyre with the dragon eggs. Now she has three fire-breathing dragons. I’d say that counts.
• Descended from Aerys II? Yes, she’s his trueborn daughter.
• Connected to ice and fire? Fire is the obvious one, and now that the Night King controls Viserion, we’ve got an ice connection.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Prophecies are intentionally vague, just like the Oracle at Delphi.  Nothing says Azor Ahai has to be a descendant of Aeyrs II. And the Prince Who was Promised and Azor Ahai do not have to be the same person. 

The "ice connection" in that theory is pretty weak.  

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I would add this as well, I don't see the dragons as Lightbringer.  It's said to be a sword.

As I rewatch Season 1 there's a lot of foreshadowing. Maester Aemon has a conversation with Jon about "love being the death of duty." He asks Jon what his lord father would do if came to a choice between honor or the ones he loves. It's in the context of Jon wanting to leave to fight with Rob.  But I have a hunch those words will come back to Jon in a climatic event. 

I believe Jon is going to have to kill someone he loves.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

I believe Jon is going to have to kill someone he loves.

Then I really hope he has a secret love for Cersei because I wan't to see that b**** die. Harsh but true. 

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KBonay's picture

Did we still call him Jon? 

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Frimmel's picture

I think we still call him Jon Snow for clarity's sake. There is also the chance folks will get him confused with the original Aegon. If you say Jon Snow everyone will know who you mean while you'd need to specify with Aegon. 

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Rocket Man's picture

I guess I've been out of it and I really thought this was the last season.  

My only downside is that I guess this means we have to wait one more year for book 6

"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad."

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blazers34's picture

I have long since given up hope on the books ever being finished.  Would be a nice surprise though.

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Frimmel's picture

I think we'll get "Winds of Winter." It is too far along I think so unless a health issue comes along it likely will be finished. I have no hope of Martin being the one to give us book seven though. 

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RBloodworth's picture

Is he actually that far along, though?  As far as I know, the only pages that he has completed for this book are the chapters that he cut from A Dance with Dragons 7+ years ago.  There's no actual evidence that he's done any work on the book since then.  I don't think that he's ever going to complete Winds, much less A Dream of Spring.

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Frimmel's picture

There are many "preview" chapters released for Winds. See https://www.cnet.com/how-to/winds-of-winter-chapters/

for links and information on some (perhaps all) of them. So he has worked on the book. Some are as noted cut from other books but some seem not to be. 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

So does the Night King have a story?  Everyone else has one or more reasons for what they do and what they seek to achieve, but what's the real motivation for the Night King (other than just being a dead bad guy of course).

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Buckeyes01752's picture

He was a First Man who was captured by the Children of the Forest.  More on him here:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Night_King

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BBQ_Fan's picture

Thanks, I knew the bit about how he was created, but from the POV of his character, what's his motivation now? What's his goal?  To destroy the Wall? (check). To drive out all the decedents of the First Men from Westeros?  I suppose, but is it for some reason other than that he's a "bad guy"? Seems like everyone else has some additional angle to their character development and motivation. He feels a little like an autopilot villain (albeit a cool one). I don't believe he was in the books although may have been references to his existence.  Perhaps that's why the character is not as deep as some of the others that were featured in the books.

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brunstar's picture

The Night King is completely different in the books.  In the show what you see is what you get.  Bran will have to do some flashbacks if the show is going to build the NK's backstory and motive.

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BBQ_Fan's picture

Yeah unfortunately we are about out of time for backstory and motive....

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Rocket Man's picture

I think his goal is simply to be more evil than Cersei.

Maybe if he lives (un-deads?) another thousand years, he'll reach that goal.

"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad."

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TioSalamanca's picture

I liked the way they left the show at the end.

Samwell and Bran on a mission to tell Jon his family tree, which could create drama w/ Khaleesi.

Jaime knows that Cersei lied to the others, and that Euron isn't on his way home. He'll let Tyrion know.

The Night King and crew are through the wall.

Theon is after Euron.

Arya and Sana are together again.

In the end of season 8 I could see almost all of the main characters still alive and show ends with the War with the Night King over, and the warring between houses starting to ramp up again. I can't see them showing 1-2 people only left standing.

See you all in 12 months!

In the meantime, this show from The Wire crew seems pretty cool.

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almurray10's picture

The Jon scene might've been my favorite from the entire show. Started watching when season 4 was airing, and once I got into all the theories and backstory about Jon, I was hooked. It was so satisfying to finally see true, on-screen confirmation of who he is. Very excited/nervous to see where things go from here, especially with him and Dany. 

Legit thought Jaime was a goner for a second there. Super glad that he's finally ditched Cersei, really looking forward to how his redemption arc closes.

Thankful that Sansa/Arya were playing Littlefinger, and not the other way around. LF's been a great villain throughout the story, but his politics and scheming had no place in the story anymore once the focus shifted to the Grear War.

All in all, very pleased with this season. Don't know how I'm gonna survive another year+ of waiting. Hopefully the Winds of Winter comes out in the meantime. Also, buckeye football will help ;)

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logamaniac's picture

does jaime need redemption?  he has never really been bad or evil and he's the one guy that has arguably saved the most lives in westeros.  many many many people have him to thank for being able to breathe.

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almurray10's picture

I mean there is the whole "pushing an innocent child out of a window" thing.

We as the viewers know that Jaime isn't truly bad, and that his actions had good moral justification. But to the common folk of this world, he is still widely viewed as the Kingslayer, with no other context. So yeah, I'd say from a character standpoint he still has a redemption arc to finish.

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Ahh Saturday's picture

Looking back at that image it just struck me that Bran's path to becoming the Three-eyed Raven began by seeing what he was not supposed to see. I wonder whether that remains coincidental or plays some larger role in the season to come. As the Three-eyed Raven, what is Bran seeing now that he should not see, and will there be more negative consequences for it?

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Frimmel's picture

I'd agree with that. His hand isn't clean but by the standards of Westeros his behavior isn't particularly malicious. Since being beaten by Robb and losing his hand he has tried at least to behave honorably and spoken against Cersei's excesses. He's kind of jerked Bronn around a bit but at the same time Bronn is doing much better than he likely had much of a right to even if he's somewhat ill-used. I don't see Jaime as in particular need of redemption either. 

He'll show up at Winterfell and spill the beans about Euron and The Golden Company, there will be some arguments over whether they should just slit his throat, Jon and Tyrion with a character reference from Brienne will talk everyone down and they'll put him to use. 

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almurray10's picture

You mention that he doesn't need redemption, and that he's likely headed to winterfell. You don't think he'll have to prove himself to all of the prideful, stubborn northern lords that view him as a kingslayer who also had a hand (pun intended) in the murder of numerous Stark soldiers, bannerman, lords, and their king? I agree that he will have useful information to share with these people, but can they trust him? They haven't seen his journey and true moral goodness that we as viewers have seen. He will have to truly prove himself in a way that is meaningful to them. Hence the whole redemption comment. 

Not to mention Daenerys will be there too. He killed her father. She knows he was mad, and that Jaime likely had justifications for doing it, but do you think she will trust him because he's supposedly here to help?

Jaime is one of my favorite characters, and I know he's got a good heart and good intentions. But he's got a lot of ground to make up with some crucial characters.

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Frimmel's picture

Proving yourself to be of value and honor is something you always have to be doing in Westeros. It never ever stops no matter what you've done. I think we're using redemption in different ways. Proving himself to men who only know him by rumor is different than performing actions that actually make up for your crimes and failings. It is a subtle distinction but one I think is worth making.

Yes, when Jaime arrives in Winterfell he will be faced with proving himself but he won't be faced with having some crime he needs to make up for and set right. I tend to consider redemption something of an inner struggle to win not something a character needs to make others feel towards him.

I don't think Jaime has the sort of inner demons or failings he needs to defeat or make up for in the way Theon does. 

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almurray10's picture

I think you're right about the fine line between redemption and proving one's self. I'm currently on my first read through the books, so I might be blending book Jaime and show Jaime together unfairly, since I know the books and show are essentially two different shows at this point, but I do get the sense that Jaime has an inner desire to redeem/prove himself, because all he's ever known as is the kingslayer, and it definitely eats him up.

He's obviously come a long way, but I think he wants to leave behind a heroic memory/legacy that he'll be remembered fondly for (think back to the book of the kings guard members and all their accomplishments), and I don't think he's done anything to deserve that... yet. Which is why I'm hopeful for a heroic/epic ending to his story, whether it classifies as redemption or not. 

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TUNBUCK89's picture

Just wanted to add that Jamie does have something to point out to Jon & the Notheners to convince them that he can be trusted and that he is here to help which is the fact that it was him who gave Brienne Othkeeper and sent her on a mission to find and protect Sansa & Arya in fulfillment to his promise to Catelyn in exchange for his release from captivity which could be considered as mission accomplished and Brienne is there to confirm all this. As for Dany, I think Tyrion will vouch for him and sh'll let it slide knowing that Jamie killing her father was the right thing to do in order to save so many lives which is something she's been proclaiming and frankly doing since her arrival at Westeros in the way she's been conducting her war on Cersei.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

He doesn't need redemption, but I'm glad he finally grew his balls back and stood up to Cersei.  He should have cut her head off in the finale last season, hope that's where the prophecy takes us in the last 6.

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

Season 1 Jaime was a cocky asshole willing to push a little kid to his death (or crippling in this case) to keep his incestuous relationship with his sister secret. After his capture by the Starks he murdered his own cousin as a means of escaping confinement. That's not even touching on when he raped his sister on their son's coffin (such a dumb scene--probably the worst example of the show mangling the source material).

So yeah...Jaime needed redemption.

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

I was late to the GOT party and Season 1 is fresh in my mind still. Pushing Bran out the window was meant to kill him. Bran is going to remember it when he sees Jaime, either through jogged memory or via the Third Eye Raven. THAT will be interesting. Id wager Arya tries to slit his throat at least once.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

What about the whole killing of Ned Stark's men in the street, stabbing a spear in Ned's leg as he fought Jaime, and then blaming everything on the Starks?

Rewatch seasons one and two: Jaime is a despicable, arrongant prick. Yes, He needs some redemption and recovery of his honor. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Him not killing Ned Stark when one of his men stabbed Ned from behind in their fight said a lot about Jaime's honor in season 1.  I think Jaime has always had honor, but he's also had a dire need to please 2 of the biggest PoS in the show.  Those 2 things then conflicted a lot.  Now that he's broken away from that C he calls a sister, hopefully he comes to terms with all the grief she's brought him and kills her for it.

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Redlegs1000's picture

Jaime's motivation for that fight was to fight the guy who "killed" Sir Arthur Dayne. He wanted it to be, in the least, a fair fight. He has matured greatly from the cocky little shit he was early on.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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brunstar's picture

I'm starting to wonder if Bran was changed when the NK touched him.  Bran is the person who told Jon about the WW army being by the arrowhead mountain.  It seemed to me like that was a trap set up by the NK to kill the dragons.  Without a dragon the WW army never goes past The Wall.  Also, what were those ravens actually doing at Eastwatch before The Wall came down?  If they were scouting they were on the wrong side of The Wall.  It seems a little fishy.

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TioSalamanca's picture

Bran is the person who told Jon about the WW army being by the arrowhead mountain

I thought The Hound saw it in the flames and said it aloud on their hike.

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brunstar's picture

Jon went north because of what Bran said.  Jon and The Hound both went to Eastwatch for different reasons.  Jon to catch a zombie, the Brotherhood because of The Hounds vision.

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Redlegs1000's picture

Clegane sees this in the flames as well though.

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Brohio's picture

Was anyone else too angry that the physics of animal flight would have rendered that dragon flightless with that many holes in it's wings to enjoy the last few minutes of the finale? I feel like the dork from class that reminds the teacher that she forgot to assign us homework, but my mind goes where it goes. 

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Frimmel's picture

Well it is a magical creature that has been brought back from the dead by another magical creature.

Perhaps the wings are sufficiently powerful that some loss of wing area does not reduce efficiency to an extent to render the creature flightless. Given the now undead nature of the beast it may be somewhat lighter thus offsetting any loss of lift from the holes. Also given that the NK seems to exercise some control over the wind he may be able to assist the creature with favorable wind direction. 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

So you're okay with a resurrected dragon as long as it doesn't have too many holes in it's wings?  :-) 

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Frimmel's picture

A resurrected dragon that breathes some sort of blue force beam.

I was a little disappointed with the holes as that is a fairly standard fantasy styling for undead winged beasts. It didn't seem very original was more my issue. 

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Brohio's picture

That is exactly what I'm saying. I like my blue beam breathing mythical flying reptiles to be aerodynamically sound. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

I work with engineers and that's exactly what they said about it.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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Barfolomew's picture

I noticed this and I also noticed that it still manages to breathe it's new stuff straight out of it's mouth even though it got stabbed in the fire breathing organ. I thought it would be breathing fire out it's mouth but half of it would be inadvertently going out of its neck.

I try my best to give them a pass on zombie dragon physics, though.

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JakeStevensIsSwag's picture

How do you feel about the wights with absolutely no muscle, all skeleton, walk around and fight etc?

If i could change my username, i would

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Brohio's picture

No problem with that because it's been established that raising the dead is possible in the White Walker universe. However If the NK could just make shit fly that wasn't capable of flying, then why not just make all the White Walkers fly? So there's where I have the problem. The NK reanimates a dead dragon with Swiss cheese for wings and it's flying around with no problem. Like if we're just throwing physics out the window why aren't the skeleton soldiers just flapping their bones and miraculously soaring around like the fucking Rocketeer? They could have flown over the wall 5 seasons ago. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

My problem is more with how the wings got that way in the first place. Falling into freezing cold water, he should have been perfectly preserved.  No deterioration or rot from thetimehe fell to when the NK awoke him.  They didn't need to do that in first place. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Ahh Saturday's picture

Dragon took quite a tumble falling out of the sky. Could've torn a wing then. Still, the holes are both silly and unnecessary.

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Frimmel's picture

He sort of exploded a little bit when he got hit by the NK's javelin. 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

How about the fact that we saw Drogon take a direct hit at close range from and monster crossbow and it just stuck in his shoulder, but the Viserion is killed by an icicle from half a mile away. 

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Frimmel's picture

Didn't the WW wielding a similar icicle disintegrate a man or several in the "Hardhome" episode? It was a magical icicle wielded by a magical being against a magical creature. By what we've seen before there should have been nothing of that dragon left at all. But it was a dragon not a man. 

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sword52's picture

My favorite show of all was HBOs Rome. I am still ticked off that they only ran it 2 seasons. Saying expenses were part of reason. But now they have the money for GOT.

That being said I really enjoyed this season. Some good action for sure. Not crazy about the wait for the final season.

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logamaniac's picture

At no point was Rome anywhere near as popular as thrones.  

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sword52's picture

Never said it was more popular. I said to me it was better. It was popular in its 2 season run.

i

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Frimmel's picture

The first season was stellar and the second season was out in the woods. I think it was cancelled more for hitting a creative dead end than anything else. 

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Sanantonefan's picture

I read there will be spinoffs with prequels of up to 5 characters.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Sanantonefan's picture

Fat finger phone duplicate.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Ahh Saturday's picture

Hey Frimmel, how about one last thread to close this season with predictions/expectations for the final season? 

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Frimmel's picture

Not yet. We've still lots of room in this thread and it is only the day after. Most of the usual suspects have chimed in but we should give some more time for the DVR later folks. A Season 8 prediction thread would get crossed up with finale discussion so soon. Good idea though. 

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stubbzzz's picture

I love this show.  it's weird how I'm so relieved to finally be rid of Littlefinger, but at the same time, I'm going to miss him.  He made me so uncomfortable, yet I still really enjoyed him.  I don't know what this says about me, but I can relate to him a little, in the sense of being obsessed with winning over a woman's heart who doesn't take you seriously, but remaining driven over the course of many years.  In some ways it's admirable, in other ways, it really unhealthy.  It can mess up your mind.  Obviously, it did for Littlefinger, he became a lying, scheming, murderous scumbag.  He did have ulterior motives, to elevate himself until he sat on the Iron Throne.  But I think he really did love Catlyn, to the point where he was obsessed with her.  When she died, his obsession still lived and he transferred that obsession over to her daughter Sansa, probably simply because she resembled Catlyn more than anyone else in the world.  Also, because Sansa could help him achieve his other goal as well, of gaining more and more power.  

His death scene was brilliant.  All season long, he didn't really even do anything, but still made me cringe and hold my breath whenever he was on screen.  But then, when he knew he was about to die, I almost felt sorry for him.   Crazy.   I didn't even fully realize, that most of the events that kickstart all the chaos in this story, were all set in motion by Littlefinger.  Like murdering King Robert's Hand, Jon Arryn, which he foresaw would cause Robert to turn to his BFF Ned Stark to be the new hand, and force Ned to leave Winterfell and go to King's Landing, where he was more vulnerable, in the first place.   

This show is so good.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I was thinking the same thing.  He gave the HBO writers more source material than could use in a lifetime.  I've lost track of so many characters in the book that appear and then disappear/die.  And his grasp of the politics of gaining/holding/losing the throne are amazing.

One scene from the books that got lost is Kevan Lannister's death.  Rather than dying at the Sept of Baelor with the High Sparrow, the Tyrells and everyone else, Kevan is assassinated by Varys "The Spider".  He does it, because Kevan is doing too good of a job as Hand of the King under Tomen during Cersei's imprisonment. Varys wants an evil Cersei in power, so the people will be more willing to accept the return of the Targaryens.  It's a masterful twist, and very unexpected.  I wish they'd kept it.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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brunstar's picture

Book Cersei is completely inept at ruling the Seven Kingdoms.  She is so paranoid that she puts a bunch of morons on the high council.  Her fleet admiral, Aurane Waters, literally stole the royal fleet when she was arrested by the high septon so that he could become a pirate lord.  That's why Kevan was assassinated by Varys.  Cersei is much more clever in the show.

If you want an example of GRRM's genius look no further than Hodor.  GRRM had that plot twist planned from the beginning.  He started writing A Song of Ice and Fire in 1991 and published Game of Thrones in 1996.  Let that sink in for a while.

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Redlegs1000's picture

GRRM's comments that he is a "Gardner and not an Architect" attest to his story writing. He literally could just keep writing the series forever if he wanted. It started with a seed. Now the books have so many branches. This very reason, while a blessing, has cursed us with the fact that GRRM really doesn't know how to tie it all up in an ending. (couldn't think of a gardening metaphor for the "ending")

"If the NBA was on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love on channel 4, I'd watch the the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." ~ Bob Knight

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Jumar's picture

I just started the books and it is incredible how deep and detailed they are. The fact that someone like GRRM, Tolkien and others can think that deeply about a story is incredible. I really hope that he is able to figure out an ending to the books and tie everything up.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Now that you're reading the books, this will mean more.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Jumar's picture

Good stuff.

I just started the first book. The local library had the digital version available for download. When I traveled often I would go through a book a week. Now that I don't really travel it takes more time to get through a book.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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O.N.U. Buckeye's picture

*Spoilers in link*

When I read the series for the first time, I learned that AFFC and ADWD (in the words of the author in the link below) "cover the same time period but split up the characters".  

I stumbled upon a guide to reading the chapters of the books in a roughly chronological order and it made the 2nd (and 3rd...and 4th...) re-reads much more immersive.

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-...

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

couldn't think of a gardening metaphor for the "ending")

Sew it all up? 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

couldn't think of a gardening metaphor for the "ending")

Bring in the harvest?

Reap what he's sewn?

Personally, I'm just hoping Mr. Martin doesn't buy the farm before he finishes.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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O.N.U. Buckeye's picture

"You stand accused of murder, you stand accused of treason, how do you answer these charges ... Lord Baelish?" 

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RunEddieRun1983's picture

I loved the season, I loved the entire episode... Except for a few things...

1. Bran narrating the scene where Dany and Jon were getting it on made it even more awkward than it already was for me.  It was like watching my cousins bang...  Like when random women on the show get naked it's not a big deal, I can move on past it, but when two characters I'm that invested in get naked, it's like my family getting naked.  I was very uncomfortable with it, but then having Bran's weird, pedophile voice over top of it was very unsettling.

2. What is the dragon breathing?  Is that blue fire? If so, why did the ice just smash and break and not melt? Is it ice? If so, why didn't it just stick to the wall, which is already made of ice? Is it dragonglass? Why didn't they clarify exactly what that dragon is breathing?

IMO a better approach would be for the dead dragon not to breath anything, assuming that it died and was frozen and whatever gland/organ inside of it that produces the fire would have frozen.  I would have made the others tear the wall down, use the dragons claws/teeth to break pieces of it down and kill the men on the wall, but have the others get all ravenous and tear the wall to pieces (they had giants, didn't they?).

It was solid all around, but the end seemed like "well, we only have a few minutes left to finish putting the episode together, what do we do? BLUE FIRE THAT DOESN'T MELT ANYTHING! GO!

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

When you put ice cubes into a glass of room temperature bourbon, what do they do? The crack and shatter. 

If the dragon breathes some sort of fire (blue flames come out of my gas stove top, and they're damn hot) then subjecting an enormous, super-cooled, 700 foot tall, block of ice instantaneously to high-temperature heat would likely cause the ice to heat unevenly, crack and shatter as well as melt.

Besides, you've already bought into zombies, dragons, and people coming back from the dead to get this far.  You're going to pick this moment to call out the writers on how an undead, blue-fire breathing dragon (with holes in it's wings), ridden by a 1000-year old dude who chucks ice spears, brought down The Wall.

If you're willing to suspend your disbelief for some of it, you need to go all in.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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niblick's picture

"Besides, you've already bought into zombies, dragons, and people coming back from the dead to get this far.  You're going to pick this moment to call out the writers on how an undead, blue-fire breathing dragon (with holes in it's wings), ridden by a 1000-year old dude who chucks ice spears, brought down The Wall."

zackly!!

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Brandon26841's picture

His breath seemed to be more "atomic death ray" than fire or ice if anything.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

If the breath was anything it's the same powerful magic causing dead dragons to fly and corpses to have superhuman strength and speed and the ability to resurrect. Force bolt kind of thing. As was just said if you are willing to suspend disbelief this far you might as well eat the whole weird taco.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

you might as well eat the whole weird taco.

I'd like the family pack, please. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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Sanantonefan's picture

No Taco Bell either...

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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osu992's picture

They should just pull the 'ol Jaime Casterly Rock switcheroo...abandon King's Landing, let the NK have it...but line the Iron Throne with shards of dragon glass.

Too easy.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

I thought it was kind of weird Bronn went to have a drink and skipped out on seeing the WW. I wonder how much truth there is to this

Jerome and Lena aren’t on speaking terms anymore and they are never in the same room at the same time. It’s a pity because they appeared to have patched things up for a while, but now the word is they should be kept apart at all costs 

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/heres-why-cersei-and-bronn-never-share-a-sc...

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Should have sent Cersei off then, she's ridiculously annoying anytime she's on screen these days.

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osu992's picture

They can put dragons in the room as everyone...I'm sure they could figure out a way to include him in the scene if it was really that bad.

But...the character didn't know exactly what was about to be displayed...and the box didn't make noise while being transported.

But I liked that he left...too many not-kingly people get to be in the room in the show. For instance, Brienne threatened too many higher born characters for insulting whoever she was protecting in a scene because the character took the insults as threats. Or, in this scene, the Cleganes having their exchange...the Hound got called Dog the first two seasons...these guys get little respect from the higher born...yet we should believe it makes sense that the beginning of the scene should involve the two of them take precedence over everyone else? Nah. At least they told Euron to shut it (though, turns out that was just a ploy). My point: I liked that someone acknowledged they did not have a place at the table and should leave the sensitive negotiations to those involved.

New Day for OSU. Same noon for TTUN.

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brunstar's picture

More ammo for Bran is the Night King.

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