Making A Murderer

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Phillips.449's picture

Yep, I binge watched it over 2 days a few weeks ago. I couldn't stop watching.  You can't make this sh!t up!

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Knarcisi's picture

Couldn't stop, myself. Amazing how sloppy the investigation was. No DNA. The Chesinski guy who represented Brandon shouldn't be allowed to practice law again. 

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Adam Smith's picture

Intriguing but one sided. He is GUILTY. 

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Knarcisi's picture

I certainly understand the angle of the documentary. I told my wife that I thought he did it AND that he got framed with evidence to be sure that he was convicted. The police work was sloppy.

The 16 year old kid got totally jobbed, though. Coerced confessions, his attorneys corroborating with Avery prosecution, and no DNA in the house or garage to put him or the girl there at all. 

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Dweinz's picture

Dassey's first attorney might be the worst lawyer of all time

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CC's picture

All the defendants, prosecutors and attorneys we horrendous other than the 2 that were paid for.

I feel like he was guilty, Dassey lied and the prosecutors were corrupt.  The whole thing left me feeling annoyed.

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Knarcisi's picture

True, CC. Even Dassey's trial attorney agreed to use the cut confession tape, when in the remaining part, Dassey told his mother that the investigators got to his head. 

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Knarcisi's picture

I'm upset that Chesinksi is still allowed to practice law. 

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Daniel's picture

Toitally agree Knarcisi.  I think he did it also, and that the police were incredible sloppy.  I feel bad for Brandon, the 16 year old.  I work with special needs people and felt he was coerced into his confession. 

Va Buck

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Elaborate. I'm not saying he may not be guilty, but the complete shitshow of an investigation and behavior of the law enforcement of Manitowoc County suggests strongly that it was not a fair trial or investigation.
 

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NOLABuckeye's picture

I read somewhere that the are a few key things left out such as cell phone evidence that he was stalking her.  I'll have to look for it to provide a cite.

Nothing cleanses the soul like a no call pass interference.

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

If this woman was so scared of Avery, why would she of went to his house alone...

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BuckeyeAsylum's picture

Logic completely dodged this whole incident. I have no idea if he did it or not, but his conviction is 100% bad. Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, for me a lack of blood pools/stain anywhere in the supposed areas is a pretty reasonable doubt for me. Suddenly this 70 IQ guy is fucking Dexter? Nope, sorry, I'm out.

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stxbuck's picture

Agree-the evidence against Avery is pretty damn strong. I just watched 48 Hours revisitation of the case, during which they produced a blood handling expert who tore apart the defense team's accusations of evidence planting/mishandling of blood evidence. The case against the dim-witted nephew-that could be a different story.

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Wayward buckeye's picture

the blood guy couldn't explain the broken evidence tape. if it was officially broken, they should have replaced the tape with the info of when it was replaced and it should be written down somewhere who did it.

whoever got in there could have easily used the same hole to get blood. sounds like doubt to me.

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UniotoTank55's picture

I'm with Adam Smith on this one.  Very one sided, and if you watch any interview with the prosecutor there was much more evidence against him.

I haven't seen the whole series though, just bits and pieces.

"I kind of pulled back, and I think I pulled something." Orlando Pace

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Knarcisi's picture

Agreed, but there were way too many holes in facts, timelines, and the convenient timing of evidence by Manitowoc. Same 2 guys in the deposition on the property every time?  The guy that called in the plate number on the 3rd and the car was found in the 5th. That call didn't sound like he was looking at the car?

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osu07asu10's picture

Holes all over the place. Being guilty and deserving (in a legal sense) to be convicted are two entirely different things.

I believe that (and I have watched the episodes and read as much as I possibly can) he is most likely guilty but that the law enforcement, investigation, and prosecution severely mishandled the case and provided enough doubt that if I was a juror, I could not convict Steven Avery.

At worst, Avery was framed. At best, it was one of the most amateur run and fumbled prosecution and it deserves scrutiny regardless.

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BuckeyeAsylum's picture

This is where I am. I can't go guilty w/o a reasonable doubt with that weak ass job they did. But that is sort of the point here, dude was "framed" guilty in the media before he even was sent to a trial. That jury started jaded, and that bothers me a lot.

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Knarcisi's picture

Actually, according to Jerry the attorney, the jury only stared with 3 guilty(s) and it got swung the other way. Show the dymanics of a jury, too, and how it's not perfect. The 3 people who felt this way we're stronger personalities who convinced the rest of the group. 

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Mosely's picture

Of those three, one is the father of a cop from M County and another worked in the clerk's office.

If you look into it more, other jurors were nervous to hold out as not guilty in fear or retaliation from the county.

For those who say its biased, the women who made it had no idea how this would turn out when they started filming ten years ago.  For all they knew there might of been video evidence that he did it.  They just thought it was crazy that someone who was done so wrongly by the system could end up under investigation again.

They asked the prosecution to be a part of this but they refused.  The best evidence was used if you look into this.  What they claim to be the most damning is that Avery owns handcuffs - just like Dassey said - but the woman's DNA was not on them.  So that wouldn't do anything for me to find him guilty either.

Crazy stuff though; makes you think about who you vote for in local elections.

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GoBucks10's picture

No. Who has time for TV anyway? /s

There's no points for second place, gentlemen.

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Knarcisi's picture

For 2 weeks post surgery, I do!

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Gobucks2204's picture

Sorry, I thought this was a Harbaugh thread. Moving right along now.

"The future is bright at Ohio State."

"Greater love has no one than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends"

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Knarcisi's picture

Oh, he's inevitably in track for a series about him. He and Crean bury bodies. 

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Gobucks2204's picture

I read something the other day that he called his current wife 9 times before she returned his call. That's a bit stalkerish isn't it? 

"The future is bright at Ohio State."

"Greater love has no one than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends"

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NOLABuckeye's picture

...*3 stars.

Nothing cleanses the soul like a no call pass interference.

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Knarcisi's picture

Yeah, he's assaulted some 3 star commitments lately. 

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tvosra87's picture

Makes you wonder if harbaugh was on a "recruiting" trip in Wisconsin October 31, 2005.

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allinosu's picture

It seems at any time you look at the forum list there are at least 3 posts of him. With the damage Mr D has done to us recently you'd think he would be the one we feared.

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Knarcisi's picture

Harbaugh is just too easy to make fun of. The only thing we worry about is not being able to ridicule him.  

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Knarcisi's picture

Also, I did try to institute F Michigan Fridays a long time ago after feeling the same thing, that there was too much unwarranted talk on here about them. 

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

Wether guilty or not, the prosecution didn't even come close to proving "beyond reasonable doubt" that Avery and Dassey were guilty, both should be free men right now. 

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Knarcisi's picture

Where was all the DNA?  A drop of sweat, a shred of hair?

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Dweinz's picture

I read all the stuff that wasn't included in the show. Even if the documentary was one-sided, the defense still did a good enough job to show there is reasonable doubt he didn't do it. And I'm almost 100% sure Brendan had nothing to do with it. 

Basically, I learned that the system works against you if you are poor and below average in intelligence 

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

The sherif was on Dr. Phil this past Wednesday, and literally was caught in two more lies on live tv!

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Knarcisi's picture

All the Manitowoc people involved should just stop talking and count their blessings and move on. 

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Dasniksder's picture

This reminds me of the HBO show, Paradise Lost. The Robin Hood Murders or something like that.. Very one sided documentary series that ultimately released three men from prison after 18 years. The news will tell you they were exonerated by DNA evidence, but that's not true. They accepted an Alford plea to be released instead of going back to trial, because they would've been convicted again. 

The men who were released were all around 18 at the time and they even had what appears to be a false confession from a guy who was borderline mentally retarded, like the teenager in Making a Murderer. However since being released from prison, the guy who guy who was labeled as mentally retarded, enrolled at a community college.  It's not Harvard business it's not too bad for someone who supposedly has the intellect of a first grader.

I do hope everyone who watches Making a Murderer looks into all of the facts and evidence before pleading for their release.  The three guys from Paradise Lost, Damian Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelley Jr. gained support from celebrities like Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder, and the Dixie Chicks who knew little about the case except for what was shown on t.v. and they ended up assisting in the release of three child killers. I hope it doesn't happen again.

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

DAS - That still doesn't take away anything that the documentary showed, coerced confessions, defense lawyers working with the prosecution, tampering with blood evidence, no blood anywhere, etc. 

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Playful_Beginnings's picture

Das,

I would suggest you watch all of the Paradise Lost movies (there are ) plus West of Memphis and do additional research.   To clarify a few things, the only reason the defendants took an "Alford" plea is because one of the defendants was on death row, and betting with one's life is a very dangerous thing, especially after being in prison for that long.   If the state really believed these were child killers, do you think they would of offered an "Alford" plea and let child killers out in the public?    Without getting into too much detail, the DNA in this case pointed to other people killing the boys (hence the reason the Alford plea was being offered), and also coercion by law enforcement.   One of the three hardly knew the other two as well.  

Highly recommend you - and anyone else - interested in this case to watch the material, before you label them as child killers.   These are men who lost 20 years of their lives in prison, and just about everyone who thought they were guilty in the 90s has recanted. 

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daytonbuckeye's picture

Also, if I remember correctly, the Alford plea prevents the defendants from suing for wrongful imprisonment. 

3 85 yards and a cloud of dust.

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KBonay's picture

I think he was framed. But not just by the police. I think the cops think he did it, but fabricated evidence which also assisted the real killer...Scott Tadych

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Knarcisi's picture

Interesting take on Tadych. Did you read somethings further to support that or just a hunch?

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KBonay's picture

Other have same opinion.  I think he and Brendan did it.  He had access to the other burn sites.  He would be the only one who could 'hide' the Rav4 on Avery lot.  If you think about it, he's the ONLY witness whose timeline sunk Avery. 

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

I think that Tadych and Brendan's brother (can't think of his name at the moment) are likely the real killers. Those guys stories didn't even add up.

There's much about Avery that doesn't add up, so if those two killed her, I don't think Avery was part of it. I just don't see him sitting in jail for them. 

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KBonay's picture

Or maybe Ol Avery has just become institutionalized like Brooks.....

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Knarcisi's picture

Oops. Sorry. That was 4 weeks ago so more have probably watched by now. 

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Buckeye.383's picture

Granted I wasn't on the jury and the documentary is bias....I still feel like it is obvious that there is a reasonable doubt in the case. If this system works correctly that should be enough to find him 'innocent'. Either way it is very intriguing!

Born, raised, educated, and will die a Buckeye ~ BuckeyeNation

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TigerSweat's picture

Watched it a month ago. Very compelling stuff to say the least, although I won't go into it in depth because frankly I don't feel like typing that much tonight. I will say that the most egregious part (to me) is the heavily coerced confession of the nephew, without his mother or an attorney present... As far as I know, that kid (now an adult) is still in prison, convicted on a highly illegal bullshit confession. This is how the police operate in my area as well and that's not so much an indictment on the cops themselves, but the entire system in which they operate under. I'm a proponent of the people (us) having the ability to protect themselves from this type of foul shit - Unfortunately, we don't have many option available when the state decides to target the common man. We are supposed to have the constitution, but they consistently find ways to either go around, or straight step on that.

Urban Meyer >Jim Harbaugh for ever and ever, Amen. 0

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Knarcisi's picture

I felt myself angry about Brendon.  Coerced confessions with no attorney, coerced drawings of the scene after he made statements of innocence, no representation from his attorney, collusion from his attorney, no DNA putting him at a scene where he supposedly raped a woman. He at least deserves a new trial. 

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Il_Padrino's picture

How, and why, does this site continue to have repeat posts?  Folks, there is a search function (top right on page) that works... it really works.  Typed in "Making a Murderer" and magically the post that has been running for almost a month (on this topic) came up.  So to answer the OP's question: YES, many have seen it and have commented on it (link below).

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/forum/anything-else/2015/12/65541/making-a...

Living the life!  Go Buckeyes!  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

CPO and CDR, USN (ret)

1942, 1954, 1957, 1961, 1968, 1970, 2002, 2014 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!

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osu07asu10's picture

How, and why, does this site continue to have repeat posts?  Folks, there is a search function (top right on page) that works... it really works.  Typed in "Making a Murderer" and magically the post that has been running for almost a month (on this topic) came up.  So to answer the OP's question: YES, many have seen it and have commented on it (link below).

 

"I believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet"

Does it really sound that bad when I say it?

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Knarcisi's picture

IL Padrino, please excuse my ignorant ass for missing a post from a month ago. Maybe I wanted a fresh discussion  on it with some people that may have seen it over the last month. Don't comment then, next time. 

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

Knarcisi - I agree with you. Nothing wrong with a fresh discussion on this topic, especially with the amount of information that has been released in the past month. plus 1 2 u 

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worldbeTHE's picture

Logged in just to say thanks for saying this. Why some people think that they need to police stuff like this is beyond me. Just don't read the damn post then.

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Knarcisi's picture

Self righteousness. If I wanted to go that route, I'd tell Il Padrino just to be thankful for the funds I and others provide for him to get the free benefit of this site. Yet he has to bitch. 

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osu07asu10's picture

Self righteousness.

Honestly, his comment made me realize why others take beef with when we say comments like that. Mecole Hardman threads? That was different. 4 weeks after the original? I feel bad for every saying things like that before.

I'd tell Il Padrino just to be thankful for the funds I and others provide for him to get the free benefit of this site.

oooph, don't say that KNar!

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Knarcisi's picture

I didn't. Well, my self righteous me did. :)

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osu07asu10's picture

We'll have to pick this conversation up in the PL.

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Playful_Beginnings's picture

I would guess that most people believe that law enforcement framed a guilty man in Avery, which - in our country - is not justice.   Although I believe Avery to be guilty, even with some of the evidence not shown in the doc, there are a few compelling pieces to the puzzle where I don't think anyone can say he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.   First, we are supposed to believe that Avery and Dassey (at best Avery is of average intelligence, and Dassey is borderline mentally challenged) could do this crime (which, ordering to the prosecution, although not presented at trial) included shooting, stabbing, and moving the body, and the only thing found with the victim's DNA is a bullet fragment found months later by a questionable LEO.   Yet the same guys who could swipe DNA off of everything, were stupid enough not to destroy her car / leave big blood spots in her car / not get rid of her key.   Second, the LEO who "called in" the victim's vehicle 2 days before it was officially found is highly suspect.  I've seen the theory that law enforcement and / or the victim's brother and ex boyfriend did an illegal search of the Avery property.

Great series though, especially for people who are just learning about issues in the criminal justice system.  

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Knarcisi's picture

The lack of DNA is the most telling piece to me. 

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apack614's picture

I've also seen some newer things they've found since the trial was over such as the Keychain. There are pics of her with the keys in her hand and there are several keys on it but when they found it at Avery's it was just the one key. Whether he is guilty or not there was no way the jury could decide without reasonable doubt he was guilty.

Earle for MOD in 16', it'll be the last best thing to ever happen to him.

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Knarcisi's picture

Here's my theory. Avery did it, but it didn't go down like they said in the trailer and the garage. He killed her and burned her. He took the car offsite, it was found and planted on his property along with the key. Like someone said above, he's smart and skilled enough to remove all that DNA but is that sloppy with those pieces?

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Wayward buckeye's picture

Not trying to start shit about the other thread , but someone mentioned that there was deer blood in the garage. So they somehow managed to clean up her blood and leave the deer blood ? I don't see how she could have been raped and throat slit/ stabbed multiple times without leaving any evidence that she was ever in the house. 

 So with that in mind , where did he kill her ? If he dumped her body somewhere else , how did the cops ( if they really did find her body somewhere else ) know that Avery killed her? I don't know if he did it , but there is way to many questions to say guilty without reasonable doubt. 

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btalbert25's picture

I don't know exactly what Knarsci is getting at, but I don't think he killed her in the trailer or garage, I think he killed her elsewhere on the property.  Whether he led her there or gave her a blow to the head I don't know, but I think it happened elsewhere on the vast property they had, then loaded her up in her car, placed her in the burn pile.  Piled a ton of shit on top of her and set it on fire.  Took her purse or whatever her phone and things were on and burned it in the barrel, then hid the car in a half assed way on the property. 

I think the cops probably did some illegal searches on the property and found the car, hence why the one cop called in the tags earlier than when the car was actually found.  They found the key and other evidence and later planted it around so that the confession from Dassey had evidence to help connect those dots.  Mind you, it was VERY VERY weak evidence, but it was enough to make it stick in that county. 

So I do believe Avery did it, on his property.  I believe various evidence was found around the property, and I believe after the police bullied/coerced a kid who wasn't mentally able to understand what was going on to "confess", they planted evidence around to make Avery go to jail for good.  So, he did get jobbed, but I think the right man is in prison.  

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Knarcisi's picture

So is this intended to be a series where they will feature another case in season 2?

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Buckeyeneer's picture

That is what they are doing on the podcast, "Serial". If you liked this and haven't listened to Serial, I would recommend that you do.

"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes

THE Ohio State University

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Knarcisi's picture

By the way, I think they should have renamed season 1 "Pin a crime on a dirtball". 

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btalbert25's picture

My dad started to watch it with my mom, and at the begining of the first season when they let the guy out of jail dad said honestly I really don't care if this guy was guilty or not, I'm not watching this guy for 10 episodes. 

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bucks4nuts's picture

Onto Walking Dead.. Finished season 1 Thursday and while I was gone yesterday she binged watched 7 episodes from season 2.. Little chapped 

"To The House"

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Knar don't sweat the dupe, far worse things have and will happen. A lesson to all to search isn't the end of the world. 

Having said that, I just posted this on the other thread, but I'll repost it here since the fresh convo is up in here:

I think that what I learned doing research after the show, reading articles and information online, changed my opinion quite a bit. After watching the documentary, I was leaning towards innocent, but after doing some reading I agree with folks above that Avery likely did it and Brendan Dassey got hosed. 

Some things that bother me still:

1. Why it was OK for the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department to go anywhere near a crime scene that was taken away from them in terms of jurisdiction. 
2. Why it was OK to ever interview Brendan Dassey without his mother, when they said she agreed and she denied that. 
3. Why Detective Lenk had a completely different story about when he arrived at the Avery property when the login/logout incident came to light. 
4. Why they never found blood in Avery's house or garage from Teresa Halbach. 
5. When Colburn called in the plate number of a vehicle he wasn't looking at and confirmed it was a '99 Toyota. 
6. That Brendan Dassey's brother and stepfather were only able to alibi each other. 
7. That the erased voice-mail messages were not explained. 
8. Why her ex-boyfriend gave a camera to one person in the entire search party and told them where to search, which is precisely where they found the vehicle. 
9. The crime scene investigators never put a grid over the burn site, so you don't know where which bone fragments were found (which would determine if that was the primary burn site). 
10. How Brendan Dassey was treated by his own defense team, especially when he was interviewed without his lawyer. That led to his lawyer being removed and the interview inadmissible. Yet, they phone call he was coerced into making on a recorded prison phone was admitted into evidence. 

There is much about the case that doesn't make any sense at all, but one thing is clear - the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department made it their only priority to convict Steven Avery. Guilty or innocent, that much is crystal clear. 

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Knarcisi's picture

Thanks, 3M. Wells covered and agreed. 

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BuckeyeAsylum's picture

Do you by chance have a good link/source that goes more indepth? 

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aznchipmunk's picture

reddit has good stuff (see below, I think 3M posted stuff)

yes, I'm still alive

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BBQ_Fan's picture

I was on a jury once in Chicago that ended in a mistrial. Felt like the defendant and the police were equally scumbags and that both sides were lying on the stand. Afterwards we jurors had a chance to talk freely to both the prosecutor and the defense attorney and I came away shocked at the information that had been withheld from us on both sides.

Regardless of whether you think Avery is guilty or not, the series does a good job of showing the faults in the legal system as well as the power that the state has to bring against the poor and unsophisticated (and sometimes innocent). It also highlights the close knit culture of law enforcement and not in a good way. While they sometimes make honest mistakes, they also can overreach and be too interested in protecting their own and proving their theory rather than necessarily finding "the truth".

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

I was a juror last year and we rendered verdicts that resulted in a fellow going to prison for quite a while. I think the experience was unlike any expectations I could fathom.  Your opinions of people on the witness stand are pretty remarkable, as opposed to how you'd view them in a random encounter on the street. The entire process is eye opening. 

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The Rill Dill's picture

Wait.  You're saying that something was crooked in Chicago? 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

LOL +1. Yeah these guys were almost TV-show caricatures of Chicago cops, like something from Hill Street Blues or The Fugitive. It was a case about a felon accused of possession of a weapon (one of the Avery charges btw and not discussed much in the show). We were allowed to know about only one, not numerous other felonies the guy committed - and not that he was also awaiting trial for attempted murder. He claimed it was a drop gun, and it very well may have been due to the cops not being believable on the stand. However we were also not allowed to know that the cops beat the guy so badly that he was hospitalized for several days and the judge would not allow the defense attorney to discuss this in court.  The jury ended up hung after a lot of deliberation, thus the mistrial, but even the prosecutor later told the one hold out juror that you can only make decisions based on on what you are given.

It's very different actually being on a criminal jury from watching on one on TV as 3M says.  All this reinforces that poor defense counsel dooms many people who may even take plea deals because they can't afford to get proper representation and they need to move on and get back to their families and/or jobs if they have one.

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BBQ_Fan's picture

like something from Hill Street Blues or The Fugitive

OMG I just realized that I have seriously dated myself

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Well, you dated me, too. I followed that analogy all the way. 

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Knarcisi's picture

Yeah, the swearing in part of the process just needs to be eliminated. 

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82spencer's picture

There are so many question marks and examples of police misconduct that no proper jury should have convicted him. I think Steven is innocent and the Manitowic County prosecutors and police need to face trial for what they've done. 

I don't believe in no-win scenarios

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BUCK-I-FAN's picture

I agree. I have watched 5 episodes so far and I don't see how Steve could have done it. I see how the cops could have framed him though.

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NapervilleBuck's picture

Remember, you are watching a documentary which comes in with a point of view and agenda.  I encourage you to review all sources and facts, especially after completing the series.

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Mosely's picture

I think their agenda is to take a hard look at who you vote for locally.

I don't know if the women who made it had any idea what the outcome would be when they started filming.

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worldbeTHE's picture

How about if he did kill the girl, then he gets credit for time served on the first bogus charge?

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

This was just posted in another thread.  It is a solid theory on the sad murder of Theresa Halbach.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/40xtpo/the_most_credible_theory_i_have_seen_so_far/

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bucknut1994's picture

That whole subreddit is awesome. I can spend hours reading stuff on there.

#94Ways

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aznchipmunk's picture

I'm gonna repost this, for anyone who hasn't seen it.  Nice find 3M.

yes, I'm still alive

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bucknut1994's picture

I hate Buzzfeed that was actually pretty damn funny.

#94Ways

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aznchipmunk's picture

don't hate bf.  my brother works for them.

yes, I'm still alive

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

If you're still obsessed with Making a Murderer, two specials will air this weekend

The first (Dateline on NBC) will air on Friday, January 29 at 10 p.m. EST and will feature new interviews with some of the case’s key players including Penny Beernsten (the victim of the sexual assault that had Steven jailed for 18 years for wrongful conviction), Ken Kratz (prosecutor and alleged sexter) and Jerry Buting (Steven’s former lawyer).

The second special--called Steven Avery: Innocent or Guilty?--will air on Saturday, January 30 at 9 p.m. EST on Investigation Discovery and is set to delve deep into critical details surrounding the case. 

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Dweinz's picture

I like the description of Kratz - prosecutor and alleged sexter. That guy really irritated me

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aznchipmunk's picture

Punchable face?

yes, I'm still alive

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Punchable face?

Ask his prey, whose face did get punched.  

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bucknut1994's picture

I'd love to punch this guy in the face. Why he allowed Brendon to be interrogated without anybody else in the room blows my mind.  

#94Ways

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

How he didn't get disbarred is beyond me. 

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BuckeyeinSF's picture

This guy is a sleazy son of a bitch. I honestly cannot believe he hasn't been disbarred. I know we didn't get the whole story, but just from what was shown should be enough to mount an investigation into his misconduct.
 

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bucknut1994's picture

They literally scarred Brendan into saying that stuff. With a lawyer present that doesn't happen.

#94Ways

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

They used psychological interrogation techniques that have since been outlawed, or so I read.  The one in particular that led him so badly was negative reinforcement for every word he said that didn't support the desired narrative, followed by positive reinforcement, praise even, when he said what they liked and wanted him to say.

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bucknut1994's picture

Yeah it got to the point where I think he just told them what they wanted to hear because he thought they would let him go home if he did.

#94Ways

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

That's absolutely the case.  His IQ is about one point away from the state not even being able to use him or his statements.

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The Rill Dill's picture

Hell, he thought if he confessed, he would be home in time to watch Wrestle-Mania.

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BuckeyeAirGuard78's picture

I read an article a few weeks ago that kind of played devil's advocate, where with the plea deal Brendan actually would be in a much better position.  It makes sense, from a "he's guilty" point-of-view.

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John Cooper's lucky pig's picture

This guy looks like a cross between Lou Holtz and Jerry Lundegaard from the movie Fargo.

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NoMad Buck's picture

I don't know what's worse, his face or his voice. 

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aznchipmunk's picture

voice is very punchable.

yes, I'm still alive

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Alleged? Hell, Avery is more of an alleged murderer, sitting in jail having been convicted of murder, than Kranz is an alleged sexter.

No alleged about it. She saved the texts.

He's creepy. 

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aznchipmunk's picture

Who is a worse human being: Kratz (edit) or Hairball?

yes, I'm still alive

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Nice joke. But, Steven Avery is just not a very good person. That doesn't make him guilty of anything though. 

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aznchipmunk's picture

sorry, I edited it.

yes, I'm still alive

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Kratz or Harbaugh?

Talk about Occam's Razor. I wouldn't know where to begin. 

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aznchipmunk's picture

BTW, I think it's Kratz, not Kranz.

yes, I'm still alive

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aznchipmunk's picture

Question: so mod edits constitute as "new comment". hmmm

yes, I'm still alive

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

I think it you edit your own comment before it locks, it shows as a new comment. I've seen it several times. It's not just a MOD feature. 

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BuckeyeinSF's picture

I already have my DVR set to record both of these. It's actually kind of sad how much I'm looking forward to these.

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

I'm going to set mine when I get home (I miss Directv).

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toad1204's picture

The offseason is the longest season.

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BuckeyesRwright15's picture

The kid was mildly retarded and he needed a lawyer or a parent with him, I think his step-father and brother did and framed it on Avery the kids mom didn’t even try to help him by looking at who in her family looked guilty.

We came here for bloood!! And cookies thanx

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Seabass1974's picture

So who watched the dateline special tonight and did it change your stance on this case?

The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes

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Mosely's picture

Missed it, but give me the deats...

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Seabass1974's picture

Buckeye 3m summed it up nicely. It was a seriously weak show that was some sort of viewer grab. Hopefully the other special on ID DISCOVERY is better. I still wonder about the key though. Who has a key ring on it with just one key? Even my backup keyring has 2 or 3 on them. I still think it was the brother and ex-boyfriend or just the ex. They knew way too much from the beginning of her disappearance.

The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes

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Buckeyesondeck's picture

basically, dateline and discover ID are just hitting on jack shit. Money/viewer grab.

The one interesting thing about the key. The picture of her in front of the rav4....shows more than one key on it

the one found (with only avery's dna mind you) has one

BUCKEYES RISE!!!

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Who has a key ring on it with just one key?

People using their spare key, or people who Park in their garage. I don't think either apply to her. 

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Seabass1974's picture

Even my spare key has the car and the house key on it. Is there really anyone out there driving around with a single key? Also I'm sure my spare keys have my DNA all over them and not just one random person's.

I still think it points to someone closer to Theresa.

The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Is there really anyone out there driving around with a single key? 

Me.  

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Seabass1974's picture

I don't believe you .

The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender. - Woody Hayes

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

That could come in handy one day. 

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

I honestly thought it was weak. I think NBC was just cashing in on the momentum of the documentary for some ratings. 

It didn't change my ever-confused position, save the new attorney's confidence that she would get a new trial based on new evidence. 

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Dweinz's picture

I was more encouraged by Brendan's lawyers. They seemed to think he could get another trial. Say what you want about Avery, but I think there's no way Brendan had anything to do with her murder. 

But I agree. The Dateline show seemed like it was more for people who hadn't seen the documentary yet. They didn't really provide much new info

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ScrewTheBlue's picture

Ok, I've never seen this show, and I know nothing about it.

But, I'm going to assume Making A Murder is about the Ohio State/Missagain rivalry over the past decade and a half. I'm hoping James Patrick Tressel and Urban Frank Meyer provide expert analysis.

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Dillon G's picture

Cliff notes? I am familiar with the situation, but that is it. If anybody thinks government to include military and law enforcement will act against their mission for personal political gain, think again.

#walkaway

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

I don't think people actually think the police killed that poor woman to frame him, rather they focused solely on him due to their outstanding history.

I think the prevailing opinion is that Steven Avery was a bad guy who made all the the allegations believable, by his own criminal history. And, the police had a very low opinion of him. 

Thusly, when they had a missing person last seen with him, they zeroed in on him. I believe that the police honestly do believe he did it, but is also seems to me that their conviction was so strong, they were blind to any other outcome, or possibility. 

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KBonay's picture

...and in order to convict, they enhanced evidence, placed evidence and in some instances, just made shit up to get to 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

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Dillon G's picture

Which is known to have happened. I looked it a bit ago up but am curious about the Netflix version. The defense does not deny any of the evidence but says it is a plant. Being guilty of false imprisonment and having a $36 million dollar lawsuit against you is plenty of motive to put him away.

#walkaway

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Wayward buckeye's picture

they had that interview with the expert who said that it was normal to find the wholes in the blood vile. that was interesting. then he said there should  have been evidence tape over it and that it was missing. no one talked about that or asked where the tape was. 

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Oh, and the blood was in an evidence box from the rape trial, sitting in an open office. It wasn't safeguarded in a property room, or even sealed. It was sitting on a file cabinet, unable to close, in a nonsecure area. Chain of custody must be a myth in Wisconsin. 

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Tom Selleck's Mustache's picture

It's one of those things where we will probably never know the truth and that is very sad for the Halbach family.  It's also pretty sickening there are law enforcement officials out there who would conduct themselves in this disgusting manner.

However, what is driving me crazy and no one is talking about it, is the closing song of the show.   There is about a 5 second section where the guitar line sounds identical to Red Hot Chili Peppers "Breaking the Girl".  After binge watching over Christmas, I had that song stuck in my head for two weeks.  There could be worse songs stuck in your head, but for two weeks?  Clearly it is Steven Avery's fault, trying to play mind tricks on viewers.

"Keep your head down in success, and your head up in failure" - Jerry Seinfeld

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Last night's special was just as weak as Friday's. 

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Dweinz's picture

I DVR'd it. Is it not worth watching? 

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

You can watch it, DW. I wouldn't say it's that bad. But, there's nothing really new in it, as it's geared for general audiences, with the presumption they haven't watched the documentary. So, the first 30 minutes is another rehashing of what happened. At the end they talk about the future of the case, and they hit on who else may have done it. But, I was hoping they'd have turned over something noteworthy. 

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Dweinz's picture

that's kind of a bummer. with a title like "Steven Avery: Guilty or Innocent?" you'd think they'd have some kind of new information to share. But I guess it makes sense from a ratings standpoint to try and capitalize on the popularity of this story

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Chime in after you watched it, maybe you'll think it was better than I did. Someone else will likely drop in who watched it to give a second opinion. 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

Television's answer to "click bait"

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BUCKEYE3M's picture

Striking while the iron is hot! 

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Mosely's picture

Did they interview the prosecution?

All I see from the DA who handled the case is the documentary didn't show all the evidence.

From what I've read, they used the best evidence the state had but the defense was able to debunk all of it.  One of their arguments was that Avery had porn.  Oh my, must be guilty.

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Wayward buckeye's picture

they went more into the phone call evidence. the state claimed he asked for her , but you find out she is the only photographer that works for the magazine in the area. he basically said to send the same woman from last time. they claim he gave a false name and number. well , the van that was being sold belonged to his sister. he gave them his sisters name and info.

it had very small new info. like was said earlier, most of the show went over the same stuff.

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