Cincinnati Reds Offseason

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Have to move an outfielder. Would love to get Corey Seager to play short stop. Not a big fan of Galvis being an everyday player. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
CardaleFTW's picture

I would love Seager as well, but I think getting him would require Betts to LA, and then the Dodgers would want Senzel or India, which I would be opposed to. I doubt they'll want Winker. I like India to replace Votto at 1B in a few years.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

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NHBuckeye's picture

3-team trade:

Lindor to LA Dodgers

Seager to Cincinnati  

Lux and Senzel to Cleveland 

Fields of Dreams

 

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CardaleFTW's picture

Hmmmm.... I wonder which of those three teams you root for. Haha.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

HS
NHBuckeye's picture

Cleveland probably has to include another player I guess.   But Lindor is a top-5 player in the game and LA gets him for 2 years minimum.  That’s hard to say no to for a team that’s been so close to a WS title.  I think they’d sign Frankie long term actually.   

Fields of Dreams

 

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Gratefulbuck's picture

That’s not a bad trade. Not sure LA would give up Seager. 

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NHBuckeye's picture

Seager and Lindor are both under control for the next two seasons.   LA would make that switch any day.   

My trade may have too much leaving LA so another piece may need to be included from Cleveland.  Senzel is now expendable so swapping him out for Seager would be a good move.   The Reds are ready to contend right now.  

Fields of Dreams

 

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Gratefulbuck's picture

Probably a good move all around as it is. Small market/salary teams need to make bold moves to maximize their rosters. LA can pay top dollar and keep Lindor, who’s probably a small step ahead of Seager. 

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buckeyefan67's picture

NH...now that trade has some interesting possibilities. 

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NHBuckeye's picture

It's funny, but later last night I was reading that a 3-team trade between these three teams actually was discussed.  The Dodgers were sending out Seager and Mays, not Seager and Lux though.  

Fields of Dreams

 

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lamplighter's picture

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

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SilverBullets_PHX's picture

First time in like 7 years there is some excitement heading into the season.  Cant wait!

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WezBuck28's picture

I was kind of excited when we signed Puig and Kemp...and..well....

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stxbuck's picture

Everybody knew Kemp was washed up/a throw in to the deal. Is Wood still on the Reds roster? 
The Reds essentially wound up swapping Homer Bailey for Trevor Bauer, so it’s hard to question that trade!

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Hanawi_'s picture

Uh. They gave up 3 top 100 prospects as well. Both trades were terrible. Bauer is basically the old Homer Bailey with one outlier of a year. Plus, Bailey actually out-pitched Bauer last year. Reds aren't in the position to outspend most of baseball, so they need to build from within, but they got impatient after Jocketty blew the early parts of the rebuild. Just horrible decisions. Hope they win this year bc don't think they can sustain anything after it. 

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stxbuck's picture

I can live w/out dreaming of the future of Jeter Downs  and  Taylor Trammel, thank you very much. You always have to pay the ratio for proven MLB talent.

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Hanawi_'s picture

If they paid it for top-tier talent with years of control, then fine. They paid it for one year of Bauer essentially. I noticed you didn't address any of my points about his actual ability versus Homer Bailey. You're exactly the fan the Reds love. Rather win 85 games this year than 95 in two years. 

Reds cannot spend their way to a title. They must develop talent.

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Sanitarian2's picture

The Reds have been losing this season to win ten more games next season for six years, time to come up with a new strategy and win WHENEVER the chance comes up. They have long term contracts now at 1st(sucks), 2nd, 3rd, CF and RF with team control over the entire OF. They have the Catcher spot locked down(Average at best)

They have their closer signed for two more seasons and Gray for three, Miley for two, AD for a year, Stephenson, Castillo and Garrett for three. This team is actually positioned for a decent run and not just for a single season. Sure, they need some of their second hand pitchers to develop and a few backup position players to emerge from the farm but they should have a nice three year run.

The farm is awash in OF and SS, could move some of that around.

Sani

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Hanawi_'s picture

Jocketty blew the early rebuild by prioritizing MLB ready instead of best talent available. They were finally building the farm system only to now burn it down again. Considering they have 2 top 100 prospects and they are both pitchers, I'm not sure they are awash in talent at any position.

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stxbuck's picture

Bailey was an albatross. Getting rid of him was smart, getting 1.3 years of Bauer and . 6 years of Puig was a bonus. You can’t fill today!s roster holes 3 years later if you want to contend-sometimes you cash in your chips.

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Hanawi_'s picture

Again since you seem to have missed it above. Bailey outpitched Bauer last year. How is that an albatross? Bauer isn't exactly cheap either.

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stxbuck's picture

Bailey had an OK year-he needed a change of scenery and the Reds needed to dump his salary. Would you rather have Bailey back for the Reds this year over Bauer? I sure wouldn’t.

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CincyBuck's picture

Again since you seem to have missed it above. Bailey outpitched Bauer last year. How is that an albatross? Bauer isn't exactly cheap either.

So are you saying you'd rather have Bailey over Bauer this year?  If not, then I'm not sure you're making much of a point.  If yes, I think you're in the vast minority.

Agreed with your general point that the Reds need to develop rather than buy/trade for talent.  And I didn't like the preseason trade last year for Puig & Co.  

That said, the "rebuild" seemed to be in neutral for a good 4-5 years.  And it seems they've assembled a pretty good roster this year -- somehow.  So I'll take it.  

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Hanawi_'s picture

Bauer is overrated. He's a number 3 starter making 17 million. Reds would have been better off just cutting Bailey and holding onto Gray, Trammell, and Downs. If they wanted to trade any of them, they could have gotten someone with more years of control at SS. Could have used the 17 million on a better pitcher.

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CincyBuck's picture

We'll see I guess.  Bailey was hot garbage for several years before he left.  Not sure how he finished the year.  Bailey's been much, much better over the course of the last few years.  It's crazy to me that someone would believe that they're on the same level.

But who knows.  We'll see what happens this season.

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stxbuck's picture

I assume you meant Bauer instead of Bailey when you typed much, much better over the past few years.

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CincyBuck's picture

Yep; good catch.  I guess what I typed doesn't make a ton of sense.  But, yeah, comparing Bailey and Bauer over the last few years, it isn't even close.

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SilverBullets_PHX's picture

Not having to watch Homer Bailey pitch in a Reds uniform was probably the thing I was most excited for last year.  

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lamplighter's picture

Always wanted to find a line on when he would throw his arm out and miss the rest of the season

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

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TBDBITL DAD's picture

Wood is gone. Resigned with Dodgers.

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Sanitarian2's picture

Should be much improved, only real hole is a SS but if Galvis can match his HR swing this season the Reds have the potential to win the division. Could see a true platoon in LF a three man rotation in RF/CF spots combined. Not sure that last years flash in the pan HR hitting RF has a spot unless there's a trade.

Sani

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CardaleFTW's picture

There should be room for 5 outfielders on a 26 man roster, especially considering Senzel will play some time in the infield. Aquino should make it, but Ervin might be the odd man left out.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

I didnt hear of the Castellanos signing until this morning. They definitely improved their O. Only question will the pitching hold up?

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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CardaleFTW's picture

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

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stxbuck's picture

The Reds are entering the season w/ one of the more  solid rotations in MLB. The only concern is that Castillo, Miley and Bauer pitch like they did in May last year, as opposed to September.

The Brewers and Cubs are both weaker than last year, I think the Reds could be getting some revenge this season.

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Sanantonefan's picture

I think the addition of Miley gives them another starting option. If someone goes down, they still have Mahle. Not great, but serviceable.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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CardaleFTW's picture

*Deleted comment*

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

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Sanitarian2's picture

The Reds announced that slugging third baseman Eugenio Suárez had surgery to remove loose cartilage in his right shoulder on Tuesday for an injury he suffered in a swimming pool.

The Reds' statement said Suárez's physical activity will be limited at the beginning of Spring Training but that he should be ready to play near the beginning of the regular season.

Sani

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Evannati's picture

This should quash the Senzel trade rumors.  It is his natural position and his presence would enable Suarez to come back when he is ready.  

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Sanantonefan's picture

Also Moose's natural position. I'd think they would put Moose at third and Senzel at second since he is younger and has more range.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

HS
Spartan13's picture

Be careful man the Browns fans raid every Bengals post to spew hate because of their own insecurities, I imagine the Indians fans will be doing the same 

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CardaleFTW's picture

Lindor for Senzel and we can all be friends :)

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

HS
Dstacify's picture

Just bring up how they got outdrawn by Cubs fans in their home stadium during their last WS. That'll keep them at bay lol.

11 Strong.

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NHBuckeye's picture

I’m an Indians fan but this is a Reds team I could root for.   I think they are ready to break through.  

Fields of Dreams

 

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logamaniac's picture

Cool, preseason hype with horrible results for what the last two decades?   The reds are the MLB wolverines but with worse results.  
 

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stxbuck's picture

Go back to your Tribe thread and watch them bei disassembled.

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logamaniac's picture

I guess this is where Cincinnati is now.  Nobody cares.  Indians fans aren’t rooting against you or laughing at you because you don’t matter.   The tribe will lose assets, retool and moneyball again to compete for another 3-4 year stretch so long as the Sox or Tigs don’t strike gold.  
 

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stxbuck's picture

If you aren’t going to say something intelligent in a thread about a pro team you aren’t a fan of, just stay the hell out. Unwritten 11W rule.

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TBDBITL DAD's picture

Plenty of people care. It's funny the Indians fans that feel they have accomplished something the last 25 years. 2nd place is still the first loser. At least I have seen the Reds win 3 World Series titles in my life time. You'd have to be 80 to remember an Indians Championship. Reds and Indians are equal in titles the last 29 seasons too regardless where they have finished record wise. Titles are all that matters.

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Triv's picture

 It's funny the Indians fans that feel they have accomplished something the last 25 years. 2nd place is still the first loser.

Look man, I have nothing against the Reds and I'm pulling for them to do well. But it's laughably ignorant to say the Reds and Indians have similar accomplishments over the past 25 years lol. "2nd place is still the first loser" is one of the dumbest phrases of all time. There are MAYBE 3 teams in the MLB that genuinely should have a championship or bust mindset. The 2019 LA Dodgers did not have an equal season to the 2019 Detroit Tigers - that is what you're insinuating by say titles are the only thing that matters.

In the past 25 years:

Playoff appearances:
Indians 11
Reds 4 (2 TOTAL wins in those 4 appearances)

ALCS/NLCS appearances:
Indians 4
Reds 0

World Series appearances:
Indians 3
Reds 0

Longest playoff drought:
Indians 5 years
Reds 14 years

Sure, if you want to say the Reds are the more historically successful franchise, I'll give you that. But you chose 25 years, and it's objectively true that the Indians are far and away the more accomplished team in that time frame. It's honestly not even really debatable in any possible metric. "Titles are all that matters" is exactly what people who want to live off of 30 year old championships say, anybody who supports even a mildly successful team understands titles are absolutely not all that matters.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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TBDBITL DAD's picture

World Series titles are all that matters. Ask any player or manager. Nobody remembers second place unless it was your team. I was just pointing out that with all the regular season wins, playoff appearances and W.S. appearances the Indians have had lately, they technically equaled the Reds and I'll add any other team that hasn't won a World Series in the last 29 years. I never said they have been equal on wins, playoffs, etc. Just stated this....

World Series wins last 29 years

Reds-0

Indians-0

If you are happy with your Indians not winning it all I'm happy for you. I'm not happy with second place. I posted my first message because I get tired of some Indians fans, not all of them, thinking they are so great when in the grand scheme of things they haven't won a World Series since the color TV was invented. Until the 90's I only knew one person that was an Indian fan. Haha.

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CincyBuck's picture

Preseason hype?  What the hell are you talking about? The Reds have been picked to finish at or near the bottom for 5-6 years.  You must be getting pissy about a different MLB team.

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Sanantonefan's picture

Didn't dv you, but you should wash your mouth out with soap for putting any Ohio team in with TTUN.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Spartan13's picture

I find the Browns very comparable to Michigan football. For some reason they are always talked about, just a terrible culture, arguably the worst fans in America and pound their chest for no reason, and if anybody else has some success they do whatever they can to trash it. 

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Reds should be very good. Five outfielders that could be everyday guys. Do think Senzel is going to get moved. Shogo is going to start in center. punisher in right. castellano in left. Winker the 4th. 

SS is the big hole. Suarez had surgery today and might miss the start of the season. That probably shifts Moose to third until he comes back. I wish senzel could play SS. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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CardaleFTW's picture

Right now Suarez is the backup SS, so I hope the Reds work out a trade or sign Brock Holt. Not comfortable with Galvis playing everyday.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

HS
stxbuck's picture

On 1410 today they said the Red Sox were looking to move Mookie Betts to the Dodgers, but a 3 way trade  was likely, enter the Reds, w/ them receiving Seager. Ideally, whomever the SS is in 20 and perhaps 21 will just be a quality placeholder for José Garcia.

Dick Williams specifically said Senzel was not on the market.

I’d like to see the Reds add one more strong bullpen arm. 
 

Castellanos is really exciting-led the majors in 2Bs last year w/ 58-they said led league, but he got traded from Tigers to Cubs mid season. .337 OBP, scored 100 runs.

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Maybe the plan is to play Shogo in left, senzel in center and castellano in right. Then bring punisher off the bench. 
 

I do know the reds want Seager badly. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
CardaleFTW's picture

If the Reds can get Seager without trading Senzel, Lodolo, or Stephenson... I would be thrilled. 

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

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Hanawi_'s picture

Greene would be my number one untouchable with Lodolo and Stephenson right behind. They can have anyone else in the minors and anyone but Suarez or Castillo in the majors.

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CincyBuck's picture

FWIW, I have it on good authority from an inside source that the Reds are very close to finalizing a 3-team trade for a top SS that would be "ridiculous."  Likely to happen within the next week -- unless it hits a hitch.

So yeah, reason to be excited!  With Castellanos, Reds seem to be the presumptive favorite in the Central.  With an upgrade at SS, man, is a deep playoff run the expectation?

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CardaleFTW's picture

I’m never been one to trust people who have “inside sources” , but if you’re right on this one, I owe you a beer.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

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stxbuck's picture

I’d have to say it honestly is. The team needed more pop-the front office delivered in a big way, and as you say, might not be done at SS-I was hoping to see Iglesias resigned, but whatevs.

I just hope Bell settles on consistent lineup and tones down some of the analytics weirdness as a result.

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CincyBuck's picture

Yeah...  Bell definitely tinkered too much last year.  Though it wasn’t analytics based most of the time.  Guy just needs to calm down and get out of the way sometimes.

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Triv's picture

Reds are very close to finalizing a 3-team trade for a top SS that would be "ridiculous."

Seager probably is on the outside looking at in as far as "top SS" go (Lindor, Bogaerts, Story, Turner, and Semien if he can repeat last year are probably the top group imo), but he'd be a nice offensive upgrade from Galvis. Rosenthal reported yesterday that the Reds balked at Lindor's potential $25M price tag next year when those talks started, so I have to assume the rumored trade is a Dodgers/Red Sox/Reds deal involving Mookie and Seager, with at least one of Senzel/India/Stephenson heading back to Boston

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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B1Gbuckeye's picture

Sounds like the Reds aren’t sold on Aquino quite yet. He struggled after the league knew to not throw a center cut fastball every at bat. I think he is OF#5 at this point. Shogo, Castellanos, Senzel, and Winker are ahead of him.

The lineup is very good, just have to hope Votto and Barnhart pick up their games.

The strength of this team is the starting pitching. They probably have the best top 3 in the league in Castillio, Gray, and Bauer. The Reds had the highest K/O rate last year, and that will likely continue this year. I’m glad the Reds are trying again!

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CardaleFTW's picture

Aquino could be a star if he takes plate discipline lessons from Votto. Laying off the junk and getting to a 2-0 or 3-1 count where he’s going to get the fastball.

I like a platoon at catcher. Casali was very good against LHP and Tucker was very good against RHP.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

HS
TBDBITL DAD's picture

Sounds like Aquino was stinking it up in winter ball. I haven't seen any stats just heard this from another Reds fan friend of mine,

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stripedwarrior's picture

.209 average in 43 at bats.  Only 1 HR.

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You can't spell chump without UM's picture

I was born in 1996. I've yet to see the Reds win a playoff series in my lifetime (and don't even get me started on the Bengals). The offseason moves have me overjoyed. I'm not saying it's World Series or bust, I'm just happy they'll be competing for the NL Central title for the first time in a few years.
My biggest concern is the bullpen. Garrett and Lorenzen are solid. Robert Stephenson could be a good option to have. But if they stick with Raisel Iglesias as the closer I might vomit. I'm not saying Iglesias is awful, he could be another solid choice as a reliever, but he's not suited to get the final 3 outs of a close game.
Finally, I'll be sad if they trade Senzel. I know it likely means they'll get a big name like Seager or Lindor, but I think Senzel is going to be a stud for the next seven or eight seasons.

Tom Brady lost to John Cooper. Never forget.

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CardaleFTW's picture

Iglesias' numbers were solid last year when he was in save situations. It was the "most important part of the game" pitching scenarios where his numbers really struggled. His strikeouts per 9 innings was the highest it's ever been. I'm expecting a big bounce back year.

It's a beautiful day in Columbus, Ohio... and TTUN still sucks.

HS
Dstacify's picture

I was 3 years old when the Reds won their last World Series in 1990. And unfortunately even that title is slightly tainted just because they were owned by a racist who supported the Nazis at the time. Great win for the city but the downside was Marge Schott got a WS title out of it.

11 Strong.

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Sanitarian2's picture

For Gods sake, you were three at the time, let the dead alone. Her "support" of Hitler was "" he was good in the beginning, but went too far." He was evil but he took a defeated, broke country after WWI and in a very short time turned it into a world conquering regime. Noting that fact does not make her a supporter of Hitler. 

She was a product of her generation and environment, borne in the 1920's. She used, "Jap", the "N" word and every possible stereotype of that age. She also contended that ear rings on men were for "Fruits". She's everyone's Grandmother from that time period and thank goodness we've made great strides but she was not evil, just a sad, old lady.

Sani

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Dstacify's picture

That just makes her ignorant, not sympathetic. You do realize this woman was forced out of ownership of the team in '99 because of her outspoken racial views right (I am old enough to remember that)? I understand it was a different time but she was a Donald Sterling type of owner nonetheless.

11 Strong.

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Evannati's picture

She also had a serious drinking problem.  

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CincyBuck's picture

Schott was a real POS.  But to say that somehow “taints” the Reds’ WS win is dumb.  If asshole owners taint their teams’ accomplishments, there are going to be A LOT of tainted titles.

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KCAlum's picture

I hated Marge Schott as much as anyone, but as a Reds fan, I did not hesitate to celebrate their WS title, it was not tainted at all. Remember how she would always insist on having her dog on the field, where it would often take a dump, necessitating for the ground crew to clean it up before the game? 

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TBDBITL DAD's picture

So every Cowboys, Patriots and Bulls Championship is tainted because they have asshole owners?

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

to me the closer has a special mentality, and Bell was an idiot to pitch Iglesias in non-save situations in the 7th/8th inning. For whatever reason, Iglesias was not sharp appearing in those innings and got hit and as a result I think he lost some confidence. I think he will do well to pitch as the closer and only in save situations. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

A lot of guys can play multiple positions. Moose was a three time all star at third. Suarez can play SS. Could also slide Senzel back to second. Gives you a chance to play three top outfielders plus have Senzel in the lineup. 
 

I like Galvis to platoon, not start. Just not buying him as an everyday shortstop. Seager or of course Lindor would be ultimate. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Dstacify's picture

I'm excited because they're loaded with talent but skeptical of David Bell's abilities as a manager. If they underperform this season in a manner similar to the 2019 Browns it will absolutely be on Bell. Hopefully all this hype actually leads to something great

11 Strong.

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

The Reds need to figure out what they are going to do with Votto if he continues to slide. 

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stxbuck's picture

Nothing they can do but pay the man and acquire talent to legitimately push him further down the lineup. 15-20 HR and a ton of walks-plate discipline from your 7 hitter isn’t a bad thing. DH might be coming to the NL in 21’, so there’s that. I think India eventually takes over at 1B.

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

It wouldn't be so bad if the Reds dropped him to the 7 hole, but it seems they insist on keeping him either 2 or 3. 

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Sanitarian2's picture

Man, now even the Reds are outsourcing work to India

Sani

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buckeyefan67's picture

San2...nice.  Now I have coffee all over my shirt...

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lamplighter's picture

Well Suarez had shoulder surgery today on his throwing arm.  They say he'll be ready for the regular season.  With that I, bet (hope?) they keep Senzel and play him at third until Suarez can play every day.

That said, I don't think they should trade Senzel.  I could even see playing him at 3rd and moving Suarez to 1st when Votto moves on

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

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Buckeye24's picture

I grew up with the Reds in the 70’s - Rose,Bench,Morgan,Perez....I wanted the Reds to sign Castellanos but when they signed the guy from Japan I thought that was it. At least they are trying and just not sitting back. Definitely need to upgrade at SS. I read all the comments but 1 thing I think the Reds need to do is to figure out some options at first base, Votto “has” been great but last year he was really down and thinking well he will bounce back compared to he is on the decline to me is foolish. His contract to me is gonna be a killer the next few years. I hope he turns it around but I’m not counting on it. And no way I trade Senzel. To much talent and versatile. Senzel to 3rd Suarez to first or Senzel to 2nd and Moustakas to first. And of course he can play center....

Artthedart

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Sanitarian2's picture

Signing Votto to a ten year 250 Million dollar contract was an error by the Reds.

Sani

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High Street Street Fighter's picture

I love Big Bob for trying to keep the band together, but he was too much of a fan in that era signing guys like Votto and Homer to big contracts. At least he tried....so that's where he gets my respect. But he was under a lot of pressure from the fans to keep Votto after he won the NL MVP....the Reds hadn't had a player like that since Larkin's early years.

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stxbuck's picture

It was-but the Reds were following the baseball fad of the time-long term mega deals for stars. Times change and GMs collectively wise up. No way the Reds get Moustakas and Castellanos for 4 year deals 10 years ago-the Yankees or Angels or Dodgers would just overpay and eat 4-5 years of non-productivity.

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Sanantonefan's picture

If you use metrics like WAR and monetize it as some (like Doug Gray) have, Votto has earned his money. Is it a drain now? yes, but he was underpaid for those MVP years.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

HS
Sanantonefan's picture

Did a little research. According to FanGraphs, +1 WAR (wins above replacement player) is worth about $9, so a player with a +1 WAR should make $9 million a year. Joey Votto has accumulated a WAR of a little over 60 during his career. Not a math guy, but I think that comes out to $540 million.

I know that these things are not scientific, and not everybody agrees, but from what I have seen, teams do look at stuff like this when it comes to signing free agents, negotiating extensions, etc.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

HS
CincyBuck's picture

Is it a drain now? yes, but he was underpaid for those MVP years.

Yes.  This is how you have to see it.  Because this was the assumption under which it was negotiated.  Everybody (including the Reds) knew it wasn't going to be a great deal in the late years.  But everybody also knew we were getting more than bargained for in the early years.

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ANOTHERMICHIGANLOSS's picture

I'm cautiously optimistic.  Like inside I'm bustling with excitement, but I'm putting a cautiously optimistic front out there for all to see.  I just can't put myself through going into April excited, even more excited when they are competing in April, a couple of injuries and a slide starting in Mid-May that has us in rebuild mode by the all star break.  Stay healthy and be consistent.  Be a competitor when June 1st hits.  Then I'll let the inner optimism flow outward for the world to see.

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stxbuck's picture

I feel ya. It’s always wait till August to get really excited-or not, w/ the Reds for me.

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High Street Street Fighter's picture

The Suarez news yesterday put a little damper on my spirits. It feels like just when things are starting to look great the rug gets pulled out from under our feet.

I'm interested in learning the details of how Suarez got injured in a "pool" accident. Given his age and maturity, I suspect he's got a couple young kids - having a couple of my own, I bet he was launching them off his shoulders, etc. in the pool. Damn...that's a real cruddy way to hurt your shoulder - playing in the pool with your kids.

The baseball Gods must still be mad at the Reds! 

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ANOTHERMICHIGANLOSS's picture

This is why we have to keep our optimism inside.  If we put it out there the baseball gods will slap us across the face.  The good news is they are saying Suarez should be back at the beginning of the season.  But this is the kind of stuff that happens every year and kills the Reds fanbase.

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Jsstull's picture

I am optimistic as well. All comes down to pitching though. 

O-H-I-O

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scarletgray's picture

Those giving up on Votto and in the same breath   cheering for Nick C acquisition are some hard to please sumbitches.  He signs a contract in 2012 that like most contracts pays for the production you already received. Since then has had a total of one sub 280 season while committing an average of 7 errors a season.  everyone knew he he would be 37 in 2020 so i am sure some decline was accounted for at the time he signed.  If your complaint is Bang for the buck,  there is no question that Joey earned every penny by comparison to any other near equal signing this century.  If your complaint is that he is on the declining years of that contract, you can only ask yourself was he worth it collectively over the length i would still say yes by a long shot.  Hell if  any other star athlete was going into year 9 of this contract and producing as he did only 2 seasons ago, they would be wanting to re-negotiate.  The reds have had too many holes to be complaining about Joey V. Are we going to have to hope for a slower decline, heck yes we are but IMHO his 2019 season is about as bad as it will ever get for a career 307 hitter and id try to concentrate on other deficiencies.  I know its a what have you done for me lately world you live in but that question needs asked of 23 other Reds before id get to Joey At least this year.

JDK

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ANOTHERMICHIGANLOSS's picture

Bingo...Votto has earned his pay and deserves to be rewarded for what he brought to this program.  He has been a catalyst for the couple of good seasons they had, and has been a bright spot through some rough seasons.  A year like this where you are bringing up a lot of youth along with making moves in FA, you need a guy like Votto as a TEAM veteran (not a MLB veteran) to bring them all together.  He has the respect of his peers, young guys look up to him, he deserves to be there.  Anyone that starts complaining about Votto, I immediately tune out.

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High Street Street Fighter's picture

I agree a lot of Reds' fans criticism of Joey is unwarranted. My one gripe is not his play or how much he makes per annum but the length of his contract. Like every other player, he's going to struggle playing well into his late 30's but he'll be in his peak earning years. The Yanks and Angels can afford to do that; not the Red legs. 

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Sanitarian2's picture

When he signed his contract .280 hitters did not command that kind of jack, especially when they have limited power and at the time was a poor first basemen. If you want to see how "fair" that contract is at this point just see how many teams are lining up trade for Votto. And for 25 million a year, even in todays market he does need to hit .300 or jack 35 HR's a game.

Votto does seem to be frustrated at himself, his lack of production but to his credit, he's out there trying every game they let him on the field. He's actually only six years into the contract with a club option for 2024, they extended him ten years while he still had two years left on this last contract and increased salary those years.

Sani

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Sanantonefan's picture

This is not a good comparison. Of course teams are not going to line up for a player at the latter end of his contract unless he is outperforming it at this time. I'd bet a lot of teams would have signed him to the deal at the time if they had the opportunity. Also, he has a full no-trade clause.

He more than earned his contract during the early years, Let's just enjoy the fact that we got to see one of the best hitters in the game ply his trade for our team during our lifetime.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Sanitarian2's picture

You can't go back a decade, compare his statistics to what similar players are making TODAY and make that claim. He was given a huge contract for his day, in fact I think it was the second highest ever at the time, He needed to put up numbers to justify it then as well. He was not underpaid for his services, not even close.

Sani

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Sanantonefan's picture

If you're going to extend an MVP talent, you are going to have to pay long-term or he'll walk. I still think we got our money's worth. May not seem like it now, but it did when he was getting votes for MVP every year. Like I said, nobody will take on that contract now, but I don't begrudge him a bit and think he was worth it. We can agree to disagree.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Hanawi_'s picture

Votto was one of the best hitters in the game when he signed that and has finished in the top 3 of the MVP multiple times since then. Any Reds fan that complains about Votto might want to follow a different sport.

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scarletgray's picture

Chris Davis says hello!  Thats what a bad contract looks like and Joeys looks nothing like that.

There is always a speculative nature in a contract, and there is always the players leverage to consider as well  as the  value the competition places on a that player . There are variables.   You dont think the reds after 150 years of being in the baseball business did not think Joey's number would likely come down at 37 years of age?  If Joey is at 285 and put on the market at trade deadline time, the first 3 teams that need a left handed bat or a first basemen would gladly eat that contract if they are in the pennant hunt. That would be 95 mill for four years.  These guys are looking for longevity and longevity is the price the Reds had to pay to fend off the other 35 teams who would have given him the same money . He is not dissimilar for Robinson Cano or Miguel Cabrerra and if you want the good, you gotta take the declining years too because if you dont and the good is Joey Votto good, someone else surely will. I applaud the contract and accept the decline even though i think he gets back on track in 2020

JDK

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Sanitarian2's picture

If Joey can be traded at the deadline this year when hitting .285 with 12 HR's then the Reds need to jump on that with both feet. He's blocked a dozen prospects at first over the last decade and for that 25 million they could get a couple decent starters and fill in his spot with players on the team or in the minors.

It's not personal, Votto clearly competes as hard as he can and short a nervous breakdown here and there has been very durable. He could tone down the "F" bombs on the way back to the dugout ...........

Sani

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scarletgray's picture

i do not disagree with any of this but even so, when you have 315 hitter with 110 hrs in his first 5 years, you sign him for 10 years and hope for the best,  The additional 2 years is simply part of the price you pay for that to happen.  Joey Voto's dont grow on trees. Show me another 29 year old 315 hitter a team let go of.  We can gripe about his production and cost  now but that does not make the move incorrect in 2012

what would this site have said if they let him go in 2012 or after  his 2016 season?

JDK

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TBDBITL DAD's picture

Votto has a no trade clause in his contract.

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Hanawi_'s picture

What prospect has he blocked that has outplayed him elsewhere?

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ANOTHERMICHIGANLOSS's picture

Which MLB team do you work for?  Oh you don't work in baseball?  I'm sure you aren't very well versed on how they approach long term contracts with MVP players to keep them home.  I'm not either, but I don't sit and claim to know exactly what the Reds should or shouldn't have done.  As a fan, which I have to assume you are as well, I see a guy that was integral in bringing the Reds into the postseason after a ridiculous layoff, and therefore the Reds rewarded him.  Back when they first got to the playoffs in 2010 he had a slash line of .324/.424/.600 and 37 home runs.  He made $525,000 that year.  Sometimes in baseball players are paid long term contracts because of what they have done, not what they are expected to do 10 years down the road at the end of their careers.

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Sanitarian2's picture

Sometimes in baseball players are paid long term contracts because of what they have done, not what they are expected to do 10 years down the road at the end of their careers.

Often and it's a poor business decision in the long run as we've seen with Joey. Considering the outcome of the Votto contract and the Reds success/his production the last two seasons.........................

Sani

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ANOTHERMICHIGANLOSS's picture

He signed the contract in 2012...you are disregarding everything he did leading up to the contract signing, and all of the years after up until 2 years ago.  You are looking at a small piece of the contract under a microscope and not looking at the big picture.  There are many instances where the Reds missed, Votto is not one of them.  Not to mention, as a person that played baseball my entire life and has been around the game for decades, hitting is cyclical.  You have ups and downs.  Confidence gets rattled and it can take time to get it back.  In his case, he has not only had that happen but injuries sprinkled in slowing his progression.  

Look, we got it, you don't like Votto.  But ask anyone that has ever had anything to do with baseball if Joey Votto is the problem the team hasn't been competitive and they will laugh at you.  Are his numbers down over the past two years?  Yup.  Is there more to baseball than strictly slash lines?  Yes.  He is a perfectionist, one of the most cerebral hitters in the game.  He isn't a guy going up there and striking out on four pitches regularly.  He burns pitchers out, he takes them deep making them throw pitch after pitch, which doesn't show up on a stat sheet, but absolutely affects outcomes.  The Reds problem has not been Joey Votto, it has been misses on other players, guys getting hurt, and up until this offseason has been handcuffed by trying to build from the ground up with their farm system instead of just going wild in FA.  

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Sanitarian2's picture

I love Votto, he plays through injuries more than any player on the Reds, refuses to come off the field and certainly tries to earn his salary. The Reds simply could not afford him at the price and length that the market dictated.

In 2016 Brandon, Bailey and Votto were taking up somewhere around 70% of the entire salary for the team. Bailey's contract was certainly worse than Votto's as Bailey was a .500 pitcher and inconsistent as hell, No hitter followed by six losses while giving up 7 runs a game and lasting four or five innings.

Sani

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Buckeye24's picture

You all crack me up. “Complaining” about Votto - no - but thinking that management may be looking at the overall production they get out of Joey the last 4 years of his deal is something they have to be thinking. We are talking age 36-39. It looks like we have to many OF’s - but I still think they have to be thinking about different lineups,matchups etc. They gave Votto a lifetime achievement contract and everyone knew the backend would not be what the front end has been. 

Artthedart

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Sanitarian2's picture

Hence, the bad decision when it was made and a handicap to the team for the last six losing seasons. Certainly not to put all the blame on Votto but when he was taking a quarter of their budget it did hurt the team.

The last two years were 284 and 261 with 12 and 15 HR's after averaging 31 the previous three seasons. SO up and BB down, power numbers for a 1st baseman are horrific. I think the fear is that this season we will see the trend continue rather than a break back to average.

In 2016 his and Bailey's mistake of a contract accounted for more than half the teams payroll. Nobody blames a player for taking the jack so long as he continues to work hard and play hard and Votto certainly is not a hang nail, can't play guy.

Sani

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Buckeye24's picture

Just think Moustakas is destined for 1st base. When? What year? Senzel destined for 2nd base again When? Moustakas played basically the same number of games that Votto did last year and hit 35hr’s and 87rbi’s while Joey went 15 & 47.....that’s a big difference especially when you look at all the 1 run games the Reds lost....

Artthedart

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

I would move Senzel to second, Suarez to SS and moose to third. Problem solved. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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matt.green14's picture

It sounds good because Suarez used to play SS but that was 4-5 years ago and he’s added on a lot of weight in muscle so I’m not sure he has the range anymore for SS. Think he’s a perfect 3rd basemen. 

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

I do too...but I also think Galvis is not the answer at SS. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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matt.green14's picture

We’re definitely in agreement there. I think they wait until closer to the all star break and trade for a big time SS. Need the utility player depth right now with Saurez’s injury in the unknown. Could see them signing Brock Holt and just alternating between him and Galvis until the all star break. 

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basketbuck3442's picture

Rosecrans put up a spray chart for Catellanos the other day over GABP and on paper he's going to have a better power year with 81 games at home compared to Comerica.  That's a big get.

Reds are putting together a softball team like the White Sox did in the mid 2000's

As for Marge Schott...Noone liked her that's for sure.  I would, however consider replacing Gapper with Schottzie full time. Maybe bringing back Schottzie is the missing piece the reds have always needed.

In my mind I have never left Mug Night...

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

My guess is if/when Senzel is healthy he plays CF with Shogo in LF and Castellanos in RF.

Castellanos gets reps at 1b for Votto allowing Punisher to play some right. Winker spells in LF and CF. 

Infield when healthy...Votto, Moose, Galvis and Suarez with Blandino, Van Meter and Farmer as the utility players...See how Galvis goes at SS before making a move (unless Seager becomes a possibility). 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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Sanitarian2's picture

Winker couldn't hit left handed pitching and Irvin couldn't hit right handed pitching but both were well above .300 when hitting against the opposite. Irvin is a  much better CF than Winker too, would theoretically make a good platoon.

Sani

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Do they Reds really keep 6 outfielders on the opening day roster? I don't see it. Maybe punisher goes to Louisville...

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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stxbuck's picture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Strop 
The Reds signed Pedro Strop today. Had some injury issues last year, but before that he has been top notch, didn’t have an ERA above 2.9 from 14-18’.
Yesterday Dick Williams was talking on the radio about beefing up the bullpen. 

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Buckeye_bob's picture

The only way that the Reds contend is to dump Votto, he is done!! The guy left more guys on base than anyone on the team last year. Good clubhouse guy but washed up!

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osudray's picture

Hoping to hear about a trade for Seager soon with the recent Dodgers trades. They have to dump a few guys, hope we take advantage

Keep Calm and Buckeye On

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