Joel Klatt to Cowherd: Historically, TTUN's Only Been a Good Never Great Program

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cajunbuckeye's picture

The truth hurts once, but a lie stings forever...

An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches

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DWright's picture

Easy for me to say after this video - But I really am a fan of this Klatt fella. He is one of my favorite CFB talking heads.

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Hovenaut's picture

Klatt is a great listen...all pragmatic, no need for the big sound bite, knows his stuff.

His context here is excellent - thanks for the share, SB.

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Ohio_Against_The_World's picture

God I love Klatt, and Gus, but Klatt is the man. He’s the one guy that always has the BIG10’s back!

When in doubt... Muck Fichigan

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BuckeyeESQ's picture

Don’t give him too much credit. He picked this same Michigan team to win the BigTen and picked them to participate in the CFP (and beat OSU this year) just prior to this season commencing.  9 weeks later, this is where he’s at.  Not a good look for Klatt with that context.  

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buckeyecityterror's picture

He is not the only one. And it honestly wasnt that crazy of a prediction. Justin fields and the defense were big question Marks that have been answered now. Things change literally every week. Rankings are super fluid.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress.

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Das Hufeisen's picture

Well I just chalk that up to "It's easier to analyze 125 years of history than to predict the future"

AKA the Horseshoe, the Shoe, and the House That Harley Built

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ohiowhitesnake's picture

I’d call that fair analysis. He’s changed his view on several teams this year, including Ohio State. Would you rather him double down on Clemson or Bama, like Danny Kanell continues to do? Or even our beloved Joey Galloway?

Feed the trolls

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Ohio_Against_The_World's picture

Yeah, I don’t think that’s fair. I believe most of the 11W staff even picked TTUN to win the conference. On paper before the season a lot of people knew that TTUN should be a competent team, maybe even a great team. OSU has a lot of questions to answer with QB, defense, and new coaching staff. Also, how would this team look after losing a legendary coach like UFM? Ryan Day wasn’t exactly “proven” until now. It wasn’t like we were getting a coach that had 5 years of head coach experience and we’ve seen what they’ve done prior.... Klatt is knowledgeable, honest, and doesn’t kiss SEC ass. He has Clemson at 7th (awesome!!!) where they should be. Joey Galloway even has Clemson still at #1... Gotta love how real Klatt is. 

When in doubt... Muck Fichigan

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

Let's not act like we knew Ohio State would be what it is now at the season's start. 

When the season began I told myself I'd be happy if we ended the regular season 10-2, as long as one of those losses wasn't to Michigan. Now with what I've seen my expectations have changed dramatically, and anything less than a playoff appearance will be a huge disappointment. 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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Byaaaahhh's picture

Yeah, he was real wrong on that but I can't really judge; I thought they'd be better too. I also thought both NUs would be way better than the disappointments they turned out to be. I thought Penn State would take a big step back. I literally never even thought about Minnesota yet here they are at the top of the West. 

I do think that should still count against him as picking Michigan over OSU requires such a leap of faith... but given the circumstances, this would be a year to do it. Lot of reasons to, though I'm not sure many of them are that great. You have Ryan Day at head coach for the first time ever but he's been in the program and always referred to as a genius. You have a newly-starting quarterback with very little college experience but he's one of the most talented high schoolers since people started looking at that stuff and he's being tutored by two proven quarterback coaches while at school and one trainer with credibility in his personal time. You have a defense coming off the worst season in school history but you also have several rising defensive stars and one genetically modified creature designed for killing quarterbacks. 

That much to say that I understand him being high on Michigan and being apprehensive about OSU, but looking at the whole picture, there's plenty of reasons to pick OSU (and be correct). 

That said, there's still half a season to be played and anything can happen but there's no reason to be anything but confident in the players and staff and trust that they'll keep building and fixing things. I'm trying to temper expectations and just enjoy the good football we're watching but man, it's hard not to get ahead of myself when I see this team. 

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Dmac3212's picture

Its such a crazy concept that someone beliefs/opinions can change. 

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BuckeyeBulldog's picture

I for one give him props for changing his mind, and acknowledging he had mistakenly believed Michigan would be good this season. He ditched the hype pretty quickly after he saw them play against army, and even more after the Wisconsin loss.

Few people change their predictions despite evidence on the field, let alone talk about how they were wrong and give solid evidence for why.

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buckeyeEddie27's picture

File this under Things Buckeye Fans Have Known for Years.

I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.

I Believe In Ohio State.

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NHBuckeye's picture

Klatt is simply fantastic.   He is so damn good. 

Fields of Dreams

 

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buckeyeEddie27's picture

Also, ttun could start by appearing in the conference championship game before thinking about winning one. THEN think about playing in something other than the outback bowl. THEN think about winning a bowl.

Do that consistently for a few years and then we can talk about how Michigan is "back". Cause that's what it would be for them to be back. Forget titles. Forget playoff. Just win the big ten and a top tier bowl.

Until then, they can f right off.

I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.

I Believe In Ohio State.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

The only sniff of Indy they've ever gotten is as they drive by on the way to Bloomington every other year.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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ShawneeBuck74's picture

A lot of folks were wrong about TTUN. People remember Harbaugh at Stanford and his first few years at SF and believe that now that he has his guys etc., it would return TTUN to the promise land. Basically, with our new coach/QB/defense, no one could predict well. 

The main point about the video is that TTUN under Jim IS back. Their program is 9-3, 10-2 team historically. only 5 eleven win seasons.  Never won 12 games. All their coaches had losing bowl records.

  They’ve. Not been on our level of play for a long long time. The thing he’s failed at is the rivalry game. That’s the thing that keeps TTUN “good” but not “very good” under Jim.  

You win with people. 

And so forth...

9 Units Strong!

 

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rkylet83's picture

Totally agree.  Take away 1997 and their greatest wins are all upsets of us.  To quote Mike Valenti, “they’re a regional program with A+ marketing.”

Harbaugh has them where Lloyd, Bo and Moeller had them.  The difference is we’re better and the B1G is better overall than the 80’s and 90’s when they were winning conference titles.  

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manbearpig1988's picture

I’m headed over to mgoblog to see the reaction 

Silver Bullets

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tcm1968's picture

it's just more evidence to support what a lot of Michigan fans are saying right now... "we could do a lot worse... but we sure aren't getting what we paid for with Harbaugh"..

Go Bucks!

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rkylet83's picture

I’m not sure if Klatt was on the early Harbaugh wagon (I don’t remember him pre 2017) but I know Cowherd was.  The national media covered him and anointed him before he played a game.  He WAS going to turn them into a title contender and play for championships.  That was the expectation they put in place with support from the UM fanbase.  Now that it’s clear that none of those things will happen, they’re back tracking to say he’s still great and doing all that can be done at Michigan.  Kind of cheap and lazy.  Just own your mistakes and move on.  

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OhioStGoon's picture

Don't tell scUM or even some old OSU fan's that. Half a championship in more than 50 year's and have never made a playoff of BCS game before that.

GO BUCKS

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BuckeyeGoneNuts's picture

I like Klatt a lot as an analyst, and I don't have a problem with him picking TTUN to win the conference at the beginning of the season.  Most did, and lets face it, hindsight is 20/20, but there were a LOT of questions about the Buckeyes this year.  They've all been answered (so far) in a phenomenal way, but nobody knew that for sure prior to the season.

I agree with Klatt 100% that Michigan is a good not elite school and has been forever.   However, I do have an issue with using yearly win totals as a measuring stick to compare over time.   It doesn't make sense.   Back in the day the teams had 9 or 10 games in a season, now with playoffs and such you can have 15 games.  With the schedules also being so diluted, it's not at all difficult for a coach at a top echelon school to win 9 per year.  Heck, any of us could probably coach the Buckeyes to a 9 win season.  So many of the opponents are just vastly inferior, so of course Harbaugh can average 9.5 wins per season --- the question is, how many does he win against opponents with a pulse??   From a total wins perspective, JH has done great, bringing them to 9.5 wins per season.... but his record against decent opponents is abysmal.

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LMS1971's picture

Thanks for posting this. Not a Herbie hater, but Klatt is giving him a run for the money. Although, if Klatt had played at OSU, he may have to be more circumspect in his analysis as I believe that Herbstreit has to be about OSU. Don't forget that Fox (Klatt) is the B1G/Big12 network, CBS (Danielson) is the SEC network, and ESPN/ABC is a little bit of all of them. You always gotta remember who cuts your check.

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

Klatt and Gus calling the OSU game Saturday?

2x account suspension survivor 

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ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

Don't forget how he juxtaposed their five 11 win seasons historically to ours. He said we have like 15 or more... gives you perspective

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

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AZBUCKFAN's picture

Well, the idiotic Michigan fans would just say that is because they play a tougher schedule. They can NEVER accept the reality that their program is NOT elite. 

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Buckeye Chuck's picture

Well, in the sense that they play Ohio State every year and we play Michigan, their schedule really is tougher.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

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Anglefan's picture

This will be our 19th season winning 11 or more games. 

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

It was easy to pick scum as the favorite before the season began because Ohio State had some unanswered questions about players and coaches, but those questions have now been answered and Klatt changed his tune like a competent analyst should do. 

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RJerome-15Alum's picture

Great stuff! Thanks for sharing

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MongosMagic's picture

Is this on mgoblog yet?  I hope it is.

"Mongo only sausage in bowl of soup"

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BuckeyeIn NY's picture

Here's one take over there.....

Yes we used to be but used to be and where we are today are two very different things. OSU is among the elite teams with Alabama and Clemson and unless we want to cheat or compromise on academics we aren’t getting there. Choices have to be made and I like the choices UM has made to stay true to its principals. There are things more important then winning football games 

it's all the fault of academics, or the refs, or Jim Delaney, or the weather, or the Big Ten, or Paul Finebaum, etc, etc, etc,....

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NHBuckeye's picture

They really are a bunch of lunatics aren't they?  And whatever happened to Shoe-gate?  It's as ridiculous as tat-gate honestly, but those F'ers up there still torture us for that...

Fields of Dreams

 

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saintstephen11's picture

You'd think that someone who graduated from an elite academic institute would know the difference between "principals" and "principles".

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JarheadBuck's picture

Oh c'mon man...they were a terror (before the invention of the face mask or the forward pass).

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HWTOH's picture

That's right. They were great in ancient times, in the days of Fielding Yost and Fritz Crisler.

HWTOH

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OSU56's picture

Enjoying daily the back to back ttun beatdowns.

 

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ShawneeBuck74's picture

Seriously, Jim has returned them to their historical norm of 9-10 wins per season. They're good. To get to "very good" they need to be able to beat us occasionally. That's why they're not "back" to their historic standard of "very good" (when they're at their best).

That's it... because:

+ Bo/Mo/Carr only had 1/2 of a national championship between them

+they've only ever had five 11 win seasons

+they've mostly been bowl game/top 10 game type losers

National Championships, 11-plus win seasons, winning bowl games/games against top 10 teams is what takes a program from very good to great, elite, etc. and thus, TTUN has NEVER been elite (FACTS not FEELINGS).

You win with people. 

And so forth...

9 Units Strong!

 

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RBloodworth's picture

They haven't been an elite football program since before World War II, but you'd never know that by the way that the national media covers them.  The dirty little secret about the Wolverines is that they are largely a product of a long-time branding and marketing campaign perpetrated by Michigan alumni who work in the national media.  The level of hype just doesn't match the results on the field, and hasn't for a LONG time.

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ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

I am waiting for the "but they didn't play 12-14 game seasons back in those days and if they did they would have more 11 win seasons for sure!" - uh.. yea, against high school and med school teams ..

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

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Buckeye Chuck's picture

The thing with Michigan is that the "Ten Year War" era looms very large in everyone's memory: not just Michigan fans, but Buckeye fans and people who follow college football generally. And that was, by far, Michigan's best phase in the last 100 years, an era when they really were a nationally elite program (probably not a coincidence that it was also the last era before black players became a significant factor at schools in the South). There's a generation of sportswriters who grew up with Michigan as one of the power teams, and they can't break the habit of thinking of them that way.

But aside from the first half of the Bo era, they've been just sort of ... OK. Prior to Schembechler coming to Michigan, they had only won one Big Ten championship in the first 18 years of the Woody Hayes years. And the last 18 years speak for themselves. Their best teams of late (2006, 2016) still couldn't beat the Buckeyes.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

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SaltyD0gg's picture

Klatt is the most reasonable, matter-of-fact analyst in the business. He consistently makes more sense than anyone else. He's like the operations guy at work that just looks at the information available and tells it like it is.

Pain of Discipline

Pain of Regret

Take Your Pick

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NHBuckeye's picture

He also never gets trapped by the show host and he is extremely good at thinking on his feet.  I am really impressed with Klatt.  

Fields of Dreams

 

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Kopav's picture

I'm an OSU fan but there is a fallacy with the bench mark of 11 win seasons being the historical measure for how good a program is.

The problem is teams didn't really start playing 11+ games in a season until the 1970's.  So yes, now that is a 50 year chunk of time.  And it shows that recently Michigan isn't the powerhouse they believe themselves to be and a lot of their "glory" days go back a LOOONG time ago. 

But to measure their historical success by a benchmark that only applies to modern football is kind of silly.

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ISURVIVEDCOOPER's picture

Sure, and as I stated above, if they would have had as many games back in those days, the wins would probably have come against more high school,med schools, and what not. So in the post-war era, their best looked like .. Bo/Moeller/Carr... Context can be a beatch when looking at history

I think the only reason we may give any credence to their significance more than anyone else is because we are their rival and we care how we look against them. The 10 year war and it's aftermath under the Cooper years was like a star burning hottest and brightest before going into dwarf mode. They have been looking like a black hole now when measured against expectations, but normal to everyone else (minus rivalry wins, bowl wins, and championships - I mean swap them with Wisconsin or another B1G team and I wouldn't know the difference in a blind taste test)

"I don't apologize for anything.  When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

So if every team starting playing 11+ game schedules at the same time, how is that a problem? They have had the same opportunities that Ohio State, Oklahoma, Bama, etc have had, they just couldn't get it done.

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bucknutz18's picture

Since 1949 Michigan has .5 national championships. I think people tend to over estimate the amount of modern success from the Michigan football program. They are always listed in top program lists, most wins, loads of natties etc but I often tend to think the overwhelming success of the program early on is skewing the external opinion of the modern Michigan football program.

Comparing them directly to a program like Ohio State who has won 7 national titles since 1950 is not really fair at this point. Since Woody took over in 1951, OSU leads the series 38-27-2.

Michigan is obviously a top 10 program in modern college football, however they are a step behind the truly top 4-8 programs of the sport since WW2.

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Kopav's picture

Agree, and that's one of the best responses to TTUN fans, that TTUN's success and glory days were before they were ever born and are irrelevant in modern football.

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BuckeyeAsylum's picture

So, did anyone actually look up ttun records? They have 9 seasons of 11+. I mean maybe the Wiki is wrong, but I generally consult that. Would love to know where he got only 5?

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

I don't think he was putting much stock in those 11 win seasons from 1900-1905, though I bet those wins over Albion, Case Western, Carlisle and Beloit were really impressive.

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BuckeyeAsylum's picture

Well yes, but if you're going to state a stat spanning the lifetime of the program, you really don't just omit part of the span. Entirely agree they are a joke, but just confuses me why you'd mention in their entire history with an exclusion and not mention that exclusion. *shrug* I also didn't catch that the deduction of those would fit his 5 count, so I get that a bit more now.

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MaineStrength's picture

Said this in the other thread where this topic was mentioned.  Klatt is right about the record and the NCs.  But, he failed to mention the record against OSU and conference championships.  JH's record overall and lack of NCs is on par with UM's history.  But, UM historically has been competitive with OSU and has been able to win conference titles and JH hasn't.  I think that's where fans get frustrated.  If JH had the exact same record, but was 2-2 against OSU I doubt fans or national media would see any big problems.  As we all know on both sides of this rivalry you can't lose all the time and survive.  Eventually you have to win or leave.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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Kopav's picture

They did address the lack of being competitive with OSU within the context of pointing out that in a rivalry, generally when 1 side is up, the other is down.  Very rarely do you see both teams in a rivalry being at their apex.

And starting with Jim Tressel then continuing with Urban Meyer, OSU just has been so dominant there isn't much TTUN can do about it.

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MaineStrength's picture

They did address the lack of being competitive with OSU within the context of pointing out that in a rivalry, generally when 1 side is up, the other is down.  Very rarely do you see both teams in a rivalry being at their apex.

I agree with Klatt's general argument that UM fans are asking JH to be something UM has never really been.  However, I think the latter part about the rivalries not being both good at the same time is a bit hot take-ish.  There is plenty of times that both UM/OSU and TX/Okla have both been ranked in the top 10 during their meetings.  UM has been ranked in the top 10 in 3 of the last 4 years (2018, 2016, 2015), including last year.  They went through a bit of a dry spell with Rich Rod and late Hoke, but they they were ranked in the top 10 a lot in the early 00s as well and still lost.  So, I do think both teams were up at the same time a lot.  I mean OSU was the underdog last year.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS