Roster Talent

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LawClub's picture

Our only weakness in talent is in backup QB.  I know,  RB....  I don't agree.

You're point is right.  Clemson's got talent but we have more.  More than talent needed.  But it's necessary for a NC.

HS
MaineStrength's picture

Our only weakness in talent is in backup QB

I think there are some less talented spots with the projected starters up the middle in the front half with Borland (#324), Werner (#277), Landers (#481), and Hamilton (#998) that aren't super talented.  There are more talented backups, but these are the projected starters at DT & LB.  I think those are OSU's least talented (in terms of recruiting ranking) positions.

Clemson's got talent but we have more. 

I'd agree OSU has more talent than Clemson from top to bottom on the roster, but I think there are some questions on Fields & Day whereas Lawrence and Dabo are a bit more of a sure thing right now. 

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
cplunk's picture

I hear ya, but it 100% comes down to Fields

HS
buckeyedexter's picture

The last 4 recruiting classes by average player are 4, 1, 1, and 3.  So it’s probably the most talented Ohio St team ever by recruiting rankings. Plus we added the #1 and #4 grad transfers. But recruiting rankings aren’t everything.

HS
MaineStrength's picture

it’s probably the most talented Ohio St team ever

I think last year's roster was the most talented, but 2019 might be the second most.  

2019 - #14

2018 - #2

2017 - #2

2016 - #4

2015 - #7

So, you've got the #7 class graduating and the #14 class coming in.  You have transfers in of Fields, Hoak, and Jonah Jackson in and transfers of Martell, Baldwin, Snead, La'Christian Smith, Prater, Barrow, and Keandre Jones out.  You also have 6 juniors from that 2016 class that went to the NFL in Bosa, Haskins, Jordan, Sheffield, Weber, and Jones that are gone from last year's team.  All in all, considering transfers both in and out, early NFL entries, and the #7 class graduating and the #14 class coming in, I'd guess OSU is slightly less talented in 2019 versus 2018.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

True freshmen dont mean that much. Getting bigger years from #4, #2, #2 is more important than the swap. Also we still have some of the best players in the 2015 class in Hill and Cornell

HS
MaineStrength's picture

True freshmen dont mean that much.

It sounds like you're starting to move more towards which will be the better team whereas we were just talking strictly recruiting rankings.

Getting bigger years from #4, #2, #2 is more important than the swap

I still think it won't be quite as talented as last year.  When you consider transfers and early NFL entries such as Bosa, Haskins, Jones, Jordan, etc. I think it will total out in a slightly less talented team by recruiting rankings.  All in all OSU was #1 overall in team talent so it's hard to get any higher than that.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Yeah, I mean if you just think about who left and who is replacing them from a talent perspective, I think the starters here are more talented. Bosa hurts, but he only played 2.5 games. Fields>Haskins. Davis, Myers > Knox, Jordan. Technically Pridgeon>Jackson, but Jackson is the more decorated and better player in most eyes now. NPF>Prince>Bowen. Garrett Wilson and Jaelen Gill > Parris, Terry, and Johnnie (obviously more reliable players, but raw talent from recruiting rankings this is the case. Bosa > guys like Coop, Smith, Harrison but they technically aren't major downgrades talent wise if you are just using rankings. Jones > DTs not named Togiai and Garrett. Okudah/Wade > Sheffield. I think If you accurately weight how much players are going to play, you would see a higher overall this year. That's why I'm skeptical of the talent rankings. Getting credit for two 5 star o-line man that won't play is not an accurate representation of the team youre putting on the field

HS
MaineStrength's picture

 I think If you accurately weight how much players are going to play, you would see a higher overall this year.

You're comparing projected starters.  You're not looking at the entire roster.  Roster talent and projected depth chart talent are two different things.  When you said one team is more or less talented than the other team that means the whole roster.  So, there is a metric for that.  There is no metric for talent by depth chart, which could change week to week.  You'd have to project your own and look at the numbers, but there's often an inherent bias when doing that based on who you project to start.  

That's why I'm skeptical of the talent rankings

Well, the wait is over.  247 came out with it's team talent composite for 2019.  As I suspected OSU moved down from the top spot and was replaced by Bama.  But, OSU only moved down one spot to #2, with UGA #3 and as you or someone else mentioned those 3 teams are by far the most talented as the next closest is a good ways behind.  To my surprise Clemson dropped down from #6 to #9, but with LSU and Texas having really good 2019 classes and Clemson getting a lot of early NFL draft entries I guess it shouldn't be that surprising.  Here's the new list.

https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

I just think that that weighting the 85th man on the roster the same as a starter is just not the most accurate way and I think that weighting starters or contributors over backups would obviously return more predictive value. I attempted to add every player on Clemson and Ohio State that I Thought would play more than like 10% of snaps barring injury and blowouts. Guys that the team would have on the field in the 4th quarter of a national championship. Again, the more you add depth into the conversation, the worse Clemson gets from a talent perspective. Clemson has ZERO elite recruits that are buried on the depth chart that are not just young (and they don't have many of those). 

HS
MaineStrength's picture

That Alabama team was not up to par of others from a raw talent perspective on the defensive side of the ball.

Bama was #2 overall last year in team talent.

On the other hand, people in the media are simply dismissing Ohio State without understanding the talent at hand.

What makes you say that?  They are #5.  Where do you think they should be?

Talent has been HUGE in the CFP and you basically have no shot of winning the playoff without a top 5 talented team in college football. I am dying to fade Clemson against Georgia, Bama, Ohio State, maybe even Oklahoma. Here is a roster comparison of Ohio State and Clemson based on player rankings of their respective class. 

Talent is important and OSU is one of the most talented teams in the country.  Are you familiar with 247s team talent composite?  They rank total roster talent every year.  Last year OSU was #1, Bama #2, UGA #3, Clemson #6.  Their 2019 analysis hasn't come out yet, but I'd expect Bama to reclaim the #1 spot, UGA #2, OSU #3, and Clemson #4-6.  Unsurprisingly those 4 teams are all in the AP preseason top 5 so clearly they recognize the importance of talent. 

It basically sounds like you're saying OSU should be more like #2 instead of Clemson, but I think that's making a lot of nothing.  I mean you're talking about 3 ranking spots in a preseason poll.  I don't think anyone is worried about OSU's talent.  I think folks probably believe Dabo & Lawrence are a bit more of a sure thing than Day & Fields at this point.  But, it's preseason, they'll have their opportunities.  I don't think anything is way out of whack in the AP rankings as it relates to talent.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

I can link you 5 different media figures that when asked about Ohio State say, "well, urban meyer is gone." It's so stupid. The other thing is that Clemson just isnt as good as people think and I dont even think it's close. The sad thing is you wont know until early January. This was just one example of talent oversights that happen constantly in the preseason because of lazy analysts. This Clemson defense from a talent perspective is NOT an elite program. Maybe they all prove to be great, but they havent done it yet. Never said Alabama wasnt good last year, I'm addressing that period of time last season where people were talking about Alabama beating buffalo and how they were the best team in cfb history. They just clearly werent and they should be improved this year. Last year, Alabama's secondary was bad. It was bad all year. They made bad decisions. Were either not talented enough or inexperienced. They didnt play a good enough passing offense to expose them until literally the last game. Im unsure how 247 talent evals work, but I was just pointing towards contributors and if I were to add more depth, ohio States gap would grow. Clemson has 3 players that were viewed at the top 5 of their position in their class. Ohio state has 19. I assume alabama and georgia would be similar to ohio state. If clemson was 6th last year, if it includes all 85 guys, I dont see how they can maintain that spot. They brought in a 89 average class with 27 guys. It was pretty horrible for an elite program. I would think their overall drops. Maybe their rank doesnt because I'm unsure of just how close they are.

HS
MaineStrength's picture

I can link you 5 different media figures that when asked about Ohio State say, "well, urban meyer is gone." It's so stupid.

I think that remains to be seen.  There was clearly a difference between Cooper and Tressel.  There was clearly a difference between Tressel and Fickell.  There was clearly a difference between Fickell and Meyer.  I'm not sure how you can say with such certainty that there won't be any difference between Meyer and Day.  I think it would be unusual if Day turns out to be just as good as one of the best ever in his very first year.

if I were to add more depth, ohio States gap would grow

Agreed, OSU's backups in a lot of spots are more talented than their starters.  NPF, Garrett, Cornell, Togiai, Browning, Mitchell, etc. were higher ranked recruits than their likely starters ahead of them on the depth chart.  

If clemson was 6th last year, if it includes all 85 guys, I dont see how they can maintain that spot.

Because they graduated the #9 class and brought in the #10 class.  Also USC & FSU were #4 and #5 last year and they'll likely drop back.  It's possible LSU and Texas could jump over them because they #7 and #9 last year and brought in the #3 and #6 classes in 2019, but even if USC and FSU dropped back and LSU & Texas replaced them it would still keep Clemson at #6.  It's hard to say where exactly Clemson will fall without doing a more thorough inspection of their roster, but they will be somewhere in the middle of the top 10.

I would think their overall drops. Maybe their rank doesnt because I'm unsure of just how close they are.

Here's the link

https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Extramedium's picture

He’s not talking about preseason AP rankings.

His point is that the guys who get paid a ton of money to do nothing but pay attention and make smart observations about college football on TV, don’t.  They repeat the same things other analysts say, jump to conclusions that since Clemson runs the table in a pathetic conference year after year, that they and Bama out-recruit everyone else on a whole other level. 

They were gifted a first round vs Notre Dame, then were the first team Bama played who was able to take advantage of their relatively weak secondary. 

Clemson will likely run the table again this season, and analysts will likely still not look a centimeter below the surface, and continue to proclaim them one of the best teams in CFB history until they play a more talented team in the playoffs — hopefully us.

HS
MaineStrength's picture

His point is that the guys who get paid a ton of money to do nothing but pay attention and make smart observations about college football on TV, don’t. 

Agreed, your insiders here at 11W know more about OSU than an national media "expert".

Clemson will likely run the table again this season, and analysts will likely still not look a centimeter below the surface, and continue to proclaim them one of the best teams in CFB history until they play a more talented team in the playoffs — hopefully us.

OK, so to get to the heart of it the OP is annoyed that Clemson is touted as a guaranteed playoff team and OSU is lumped into a secondary group below that may make the playoffs or may not.  This frustrates the OP because OSU is more talented than Clemson.  I understand that.  OSU has always been more talented than Clemson and will be again next year. 

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

It's less about Ohio State and more about Clemson. Clemson is just NOT very talented. It's Bama, OSU, Georgia in a league of their own in terms of talent and it's not even relatively close and I have heard this mentioned ZERO times by anyone in national media. Clemson is losing TEN players that were named in All ACC honors and they are replacing them mostly very little talent. I believe that they have THREE top hundred players joining their expected contributors. That means that they are replacing production from 10 all-ACC players with 7 players that were not top 100 recruits and a lot of them are significantly worse than 100. They have 8 guys expected to play that weren't top 300 recruits and have not proven to be much better. If they have, I did not include them in the count. This Clemson team is so much worse than last year's it's laughable and people are talking about this huge gap between Clemson/Bama and everyone else. Clemson is getting this benefit of the doubt that they are retooling like other elite programs and I just don't see that being the case. 

HS
MaineStrength's picture

This Clemson team is so much worse than last year's it's laughable and people are talking about this huge gap between Clemson/Bama and everyone else

While I agree Clemson is not as talented as Bama, OSU, or UGA they still beat Bama twice in the playoffs and OSU once all while being less talented so they've shown they can beat more talented rosters than their own.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Yeah but again my point is that those teams that they won with were much more talented than this one.

HS
MaineStrength's picture

those teams that they won with were much more talented than this one.

The 2016 Clemson team was #9 overall in team talent, which is the same ranking they have in 2019.  That 2016 Clemson team beat OSU who was #5 in team talent and Bama who was #1.  S

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

HS
Dgeneral's picture

Only weakness is backup QB? You must have not watched the LB play last year. It was the worst in 30 years.

Only Harrison was adequate and even he lacks speed that other elite LBs have. Changing coaches is not going to improve how slow a player is or how weak a LB is at fending off blocks.

The talent at LB is below average, There are supposedly players that have talent but they rotted on the bench last while the others played miserable.

Until we see players play significantly better the LB is by far the weakness on the roster.

Dgeneral

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Clemson vs. Ohio State linebackers is VERY comparable from a talent perspective and if you add backups obviously OSU widens gap

HS
Dstacify's picture

I have a feeling if Fickell had been here last season our LB play would've looked much different (in a good way). Bill Davis's coaching was a huge hindrance to the LBs last season.

11 Strong.

HS
Extramedium's picture

It’s pretty much universally agreed upon that the lack from production from our LBs last season was due to coaching and scheme, not talent. And if you noticed, both coaching and scheme have been replaced

HS
Dstacify's picture

I think it's a pretty common assumption across the CFB landscape that OSU is a team with elite talent. They're just questioning whether Day as a first time HC can coach up that talent. But I'll never understand why Harbaugh is often given the benefit of the doubt when he's struggled at times to develop talent at scUM since he's been there.

11 Strong.

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

They don't talk about the talent. Over heard some of the biggest names in the space say things like "Alabama and Clemson have just recruited at another level" and its mindblowing to me. Clemson has recruited worse than the other elite programs, notably Georgia and Ohio State. It's not even that close. Clemson has recruited good star players and theyve had good classes, but this notion the Clemson is just more talented than teams like Ohio State and Georgia is borderline insane. They're not even close athletically this season. Now, maybe 6 kids that were not good recruits will show up after never really playing and be complete studs, but it's real hard to be more talented than those 3 teams if you are COUNTING on that. I get why Clemson is ranked first in the country, but I would be dying to bet on any team they face that has elite talent. Think they would struggle to get to playoff if they swapped places with ohio state, bama, georgia.

HS
estbuckeye74's picture

I think when we see how good our defense is this year it will become clearly evident just how bad the scheme was last year.

HS
rdalchemy's picture

I'd rather be dissed to begin the season than ranked 1 or 2. I love the fact that some knucklehead picked us third in the division. Players see that and it adds fuel to the fire. I hope they pick us to lose to Meatchicken every year.

Zbuddha

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Schizo's picture

2015 OSU. A (or the) most talented team of recent memory and doesn't make the playoffs.

HS
stuckupnorth's picture

Trevor Lawrence is a generational talent. Tee Higgins is a first rounder. Thier RB is in discussion for one of top backs in nation.I know that got 5* DE waiting to get on field. There safety is pretty talent as well. That’s just what I know off of the top of my head. Pair that with the Clemson ability to produce on the field.

OSU is no slouch in talent and can hang with anyone in that department. However until they put up another trophy it’s hard to bet against bama or clemson

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Yeah so basically my point is that on other top end teams in the last 10 years, they have star players but the secondary players that you dont really know are still top 100-200 recruits and guys drafted in the middle to late rounds. Clemson this season does not possess that talent. Why do you think Clemson is recruiting at such a high level this season? They can point to their depth chart at EVERY SINGLE position and a top 50 kid sees a pretty clear path to playing time by his second year, if not before. I mainly reference ohio states talent because I am and the board is more familiar of it than someone like Georgia, but Georgia's results would look the exact same

HS
stuckupnorth's picture

Clemson is recruiting at such a high level because they getting trophies. Sending players to the league. Are WR U. Just had a bonanza at NFL draft. Have a coach who will play best players, if you can ball out he will let you play. They are pulling in the top DEs every year in spite of having pulled in some of the top ones year before. The same goes with QBs. Will they have transfers? Absolutely. However every top QB wants to go there. Even if the number 1 pick is ther for two more years. The same with WRs. They are stacked, have been stacked. 

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Clemson DOES NOT have the elite talent overturn that other programs have had in recent history. The fact that their current depth chart is very weak for a top 5 program AND their success is the reason, along with strange coach retention. Bama has been MORE dominant and developed more draftees. They haven't had a class like Clemson's current class. This is simply because top players want 3 things. Playing time, winning, NFL. Clemson has a lot of openings on the depth chart that teams like Ohio State, Alabama, and Georgia do not have. Any top 50 player that commits to Clemson will see the field next year. They truly lack a LOT of talent and there is no position on the roster besides QB that couldn't use at least a talented young backup that does see the field, if not more. This isn't really debatable, its not close.  When Alabama recruits kids, the pitch is, "hey, you are gonna have to work and you might not play until your junior year, but when you play you'll be on the biggest stage and you'll be a top draft pick in the end" Clemson's lack of elite talent at basically everywhere beside qb, WR, and DL (they don't have a lot of DL depth, just like 2 elite talents, similar to WR really) they can now push "hey, our coaches don't leave, were a top program that sends kids to the NFL, and hey you can play for 3 years here no problem the guy in front of you on the depth chart was the 756th recruit in the country." The guys at the top of the class look at playing time and are NOT afraid of players ranked like that, even if they end up being good. Why do you think Ohio State has an elite WR recruiting class? All 4 of those guys know they will play 6-7 guys and should be competing for reps by their sophomore, if not earlier. Look at Alabama's receiver recruiting since that elite class and then Waddle. Why aren't they getting good receivers since then? Because the top end kids know they aren't playing over ruggs, smith, jeudy, and waddle. When they all leave, you know who is gonna go get an elite WR recruiting class? Alabama. 

HS
stuckupnorth's picture

Alabama is not known for throwing the ball for one. Two Alabama doesn’t always try to get the recruiting site top recievers. They don’t get leftovers though. Yet they will put another one in the first round. The same as the running backs. Elite back after elite back commit  to them. 

Clemson have no problems at wr. To say they only have Two is strange. The thing is they will have two more waiting to play.Tee Higgins and Ruggs are Two of the best in the country.Its a pattern with them. They got another couple waiting. The same with QB. The same with d linemen.They churn em out.  They have a safety that’s probably going in first round. 

With both Alabama and Clemson when you turn out players at three different positions, and in Alabama case even more. You gotta say they have elite talent. 

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. 

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

They have two good incoming freshman. They have two receivers that are proven commodities in Higgins and Ross. Rogers, I believe, tore his ACL. On the defensive line, they have TWO top 100 prospects on their roster. For reference, Alabama has 11, Ohio state has 9. Linebackers? They have a 170th ranked true freshman, nothing even of note past that. They don't have a top end TE anywhere on the roster. They lack elite depth at literally every position on the roster. I don't see a third string high-end recruit that is a third stringer and isn't a freshman. I'm referencing numbers here and its really still not close. Their offensive skill talent at the surface is incredible, but theyre not an elite football team in any other aspect besides the fact that their offensive line could be solid. They have 2 highly thought of player in the back 7. 

The top end of this team is elite, but the worst 5 players that Clemson plays vs. other elite teams isn't close IMO and three injuries just kill this team. 3 injuries for alabama means they are playing the 113th overall true sophomore. That kid would be Clemson's starting at some positions. The depth is not comparable unless ALL of these new starters are diamonds in the rough. A few of them probably are, just not all of them.

HS
stuckupnorth's picture

They may not have elite depth at some positions. I’m not gonna do that much research. I do know that they have enough to be able to beat OSU and thier depth twice with enough on the bench to blank OSU. They also have had enough depth in the last three years to play in the title game and go toe to toe with bama. You can’t do that without depth. As bama brings in five star after five star. If you don’t have depth to match your team will lose. 

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Yeah my point here is not the Clemson hasnt been ultra talented it's that this team is worse than their other teams and people are just ignoring it because theyre doing lazy analysis. If you dont know, dont talk IMO

HS
stuckupnorth's picture

Clemson going to playoff. I am sure of that. If u would like to make a friendly wager on that I would love to take you up. Something as simple as a screen name change 

HS
NorthBerg's picture

Recruiting gives a program the foundation for greatness. Player development makes a great team truly elite. Alabama and Clemson do not lose to teams with lessor talent by scores of 55-24 or 49-20.  One can make statistical analysis to support any conclusion.  Ohio State is a great team with great talent. Yet the sum of the parts do not necessarily translate to being truly elite on the field.

Too much time spent at the North Heidelberg rather than the classroom. SSD 68-72

HS
Kernfan's picture

Well last year OSU had top team talent according to 247, and this year they will be second to Bama.  Still better than Clemson, but not many people would pick OSU over Clemson right now.  So hopefully the new coaches on defense can figure out how to stop big plays and the offense doesn't drop off.  Here are the 247 team talent rankings https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/

HS
Rgeiger24's picture

Again, to clarify, total team talent is NOT reflective of what a team puts on the field. Clemson's back end talent has not been up to par with the top few teams in college football for the last 5+ years. The difference this year, in my opinion based on what I know about all of these rosters, is that this particular Clemson roster lacks elite talent depth even more than they have and this is going to cause a problem late in the season against an elite team that can exploit players that are not up to snuff. Clemson has not played bad players in the last five seasons. The 22+ guys they put on the field are basically all legitimate professional football players on some level. I do not think that this is the case this season, based on just looking at depth charts. Theyre front end talent is still elite, just like it was with Gallman, Williams, Cain, Watson, Leggett years ago. I there is a big difference between your talent dropping off at player 18 and your talent dropping off at player 27 and the overall talent rankings just will not reflect that. I am of the belief that against an elite opponent like Alabama this year, there will be guys in that game on the Clemson side of the ball that will get continuously attacked because they are simply not talented enough and I don't think that Clemson has enough top end talent to take those few guys that aren't good enough in an elite matchup off of the field. Comparing top 25 vs. 25 with Clemson, Bama, OSU, Georgia ect. is relatively close the last 5 years IMO. The difference is that Clemson doesn't have multiple elite players buried on the depth chart like the other 3. It's not complicated, and its something that can be proven if someone took the time. We will see when the bullets fly in January barring them being even worse than I think they should.

HS
RunEddieRun1983's picture

The thing with Clemson, like it or not, they've done more with lesser rosters. They've been better than a lot of the elite teams with worse QBs, and worse RBs, and a worse rotation along the DL. They're really well coached, so even if the names on the roster aren't as pretty top to bottom, they're still a very well coached team. Also doesn't hurt that their schedule is Charmin soft.

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

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Rgeiger24's picture

Hey guys. Just wanted to catch up

HS