Harbaugh Attempts to Throw Fickell Under Bus.

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OSU-Arts's picture

Very strong and accurate presentation. Harbaugh continues to grab any possible glory and deny responsibility for any of the failures.

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hnyg8modonwelfare's picture

It's a desperate look, even for him.  I hope this backfires recruiting for him. 

This quote is mind-boggling: ‘What’s most important, your personal beliefs or what’s in the best interest of the kid?’ And I can answer that: What’s most important is the truth."

Harbaugh held the kid back for no reason at all but out of spite.  He's making $9 mil a year.  He ought to be ashamed of himself.

Thank you Urban Meyer and Gene Smith

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Byaaaahhh's picture

If the truth is not the same as what's in the best interest for the kid, you're in a hard spot. Recruits ought to take note. 

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

what difference does it make how much he makes per year? If he didn't act in the best interest of the young man, he should be ashamed no matter what he makes. 

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MaineStrength's picture

Are we really expecting head coaches to lie to help kids play?  That's the sort of stuff that makes NCAA rules and enforcement a joke.  If the powers that be want a kid to play then they should change the rules.  They should not expect coaches to lie.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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allinosu's picture

I didn't like the Bo and Carr comment. Bo lived in a different era along with Woody when coaches were tough minded and I always liked Carr the most of all the UM coaches because he was a good man and coach. I don't like Harbaugh because of things like this. He's hard set in his ways and doesn't  give a shit outside his views, even if they are questionable. I doubt seriously if Fickell was wanting Harbaugh to lie but to try and help this young man by easing up on his hard nose philosophy, which is 'the kid didn't come to me or my staff so he is lying' even though his mother was refused last fall. By looking at this I would say it pissed JH off that the kid wanted to leave and we will not give our blessing on this transfer which does affect decisions the NCAA makes in these matters. It's like the kid fell in the water and the rules state we don't have to throw him a life raft. Jim will never err on the side of caution and that's what makes him a bad person as well as coach and will be his eventual downfall. Regardless what he thinks, public opinion can be a bitch. Especially in recruiting.

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Ohiostate1957's picture

Agree with you on Bo and Carr.

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MaineStrength's picture

I doubt seriously if Fickell was wanting Harbaugh to lie but to try and help this young man by easing up on his hard nose philosophy, which is 'the kid didn't come to me or my staff so he is lying' even though his mother was refused last fall. By looking at this I would say it pissed JH off that the kid wanted to leave and we will not give our blessing on this transfer which does affect decisions the NCAA makes in these matters.

Upvote for a logical and reasonable take :)

Jim will never err on the side of caution and that's what makes him a bad person as well as coach and will be his eventual downfall.

I don't think that makes him a bad person, I just think that means he has a strong conviction.  This sort of unwillingness to compromise can make it difficult in dealing with others at times though.  Short term this gets you criticism, but in the long run most people respect those that don't compromise their values, even when they disagree with them.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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ScarletnGreyTexan's picture

What convictions? To be a stubborn ass? because that is what I see. I've followed this case pretty close and as far as I can tell everything that resulted from that initial meeting with JH and the Hudsons supports the Hudsons in their telling of the timeline. 

The Kid got recruited to play the Dline and gets on campus and is switched to the Oline. As we all know that isn't a simple switch which I'm sure sent him into a little bit of a tailspin emotionally and mentally. At that point you see kids getting recruited to the position you are being switched to and you are working your ass off but don't see much results. It compounds itself and he slips into a depression. As far as I can tell the Oline coach did nothing to develop a relationship with the kid, at least not enough of one to truly see how he is doing and offer some encouragement. The kid felt he was on an island and drifting around with no direction. He never has once said I wish I could go back to the Dline but when you switch a kid after being recruited as one thing to another the coaching staff needs to make sure that the player is not only physically grasping it but mentally in the place they need to be to succeed. Hudson appears he wasn't.  

Now let's not ignore the other reports we have seen about how harsh Harbaugh can be and tries to create this mad max thunderdome environment where we make men up here and I'm gonna toughen them up. Look I'm not opposed to that approach, hell I'm a US Marine where nobody gets coddled, but in this instance they had a young man who was struggling and with mental health and depression still being a taboo thing in society its reason enough to think that in their program nobody is going to come forward and say hey coach I'm depressed. Hell, Hudson may not even KNEW he was depressed. There isn't a test or there isn't a machine to get hooked up to. 

So here we are now where UC, Fickell and the Hudsons are laying it all out on the table and Harbaugh takes the company line by saying hey it's not up to me, you are right Jimmy, it isn't but like a lot of other coaches you could have helped the kid by writing a letter in the situation that said - Hey great kid here and really disappointed it didn't work, we recruited him as a Dline guy but we switched him to Oline and it isn't working out. I really hope you allow him to have eligibility immediately as he deserves it. Nope didn't do that. 

THEN on top of all of that he does the most predictable Harbaugh thing and comes out at the B1G media conference and says I'm all for kids getting a one time opportunity in the portal because we don't want kids using things like Mental health issues to get those transfers when they may not have them. Good Lord, why don't you just call up the Hudsons and say your a liar kid. F U Harbaugh. he had NO REASON to make that comment other than to stroke his own ego and pat himself on the back. 

I sincerely hope every kid sees this and thinks long and hard about going there. This was a shit move by a shit coach. the fire had already consumed the Hudsons with your help you didn't need to throw a can of jet fuel on the damn thing. 

Sorry, I have always tried to maintain a decent level of respect for TTUN as my Dads best friend played for Bo and was one of the better O Line guys that went thru there but I have lost damn near all respect for the school after this. Oh and lets not forget that it was JH and TTUN that helped Patterson get there and I'm sure said whatever they needed to say to insure that happened and that he got immediate eligibility. 

"it matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
GO BUCKS!!!!!

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OzzyGuy's picture

As far as I can tell the Oline coach did nothing to develop a relationship with the kid, at least not enough of one to truly see how he is doing and offer some encouragement. The kid felt he was on an island and drifting around with no direction.

This is quite the speculation on your part. Unless you have insider information, it's a bit audacious to talk about the relationships (or lack thereof) between players and coaches.

So here we are now where UC, Fickell and the Hudsons are laying it all out on the table and Harbaugh takes the company line by saying hey it's not up to me

It literally is not up to him. It is up to the NCAA. The school submits the waiver on the player's behalf with the details behind the transfer. The school submitting the waiver (Cincy) can contact the school the player transferred from (Michigan) for details about the transfer. Let's look at a quick timeline.

October 2018 - Transfer announced

December 2018 - Hudson confirmed transferring to Cincinatti

March 2019 - Fickell calls JH

May 2019 - Hudson releases tweet about being denied immediate eligibility

Hudson himself said that he did not make aware that he was struggling from mental illness. So, at the time the compliance office came to JH asking "hey, why is this guy transferring," what do you expect JH to say? All the signs pointed to the position change and the lack of playing time. We don't know what (if any) discussion with Hudson entailed, but we know for fact from Hudson himself that mental illness was not brought up.

This is a direct quote from Hudson's tweet:

Like many football plaayers I was afraid to speak up about my depression not wanting to look weak. Now the NCAA is tellilng me that my courage to step forward and speak about my issues was done too late and subjectively my "Circumstances do not warrant relief."

Harbaugh had not been aware of Hudson's mental illness at the time of the transfer or any time while at UofM. So when asked about reasons to transfer, you think it's appropriate to lie or send an additional letter saying, "oh yeah, and he was struggling with mental illness and should be granted immediate eligibility"? Firstly, I'd call that unethical, since it was unknown to Michigan that he was struggling at the time and there was seemingly no indication that it was the reason for transfer. Secondly, even if JH did say that, it's not up to him, it's up to the NCAA.

JH went on to say that he thinks every player should have one free transfer, without waivers. It helps cut out these situations where a player may have very good reasons to transfer (mental illness) but be blocked because the NCAA decides he shared it too late. It's not fair to the player and creates a mess for players, coaches, and the NCAA alike.

The uproar against JH is misdirected, though. He shared what he knew at the time. The NCAA has created a mess and should allow the players to transfer as easily as coaches can.

@StephenToski

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HopCassady40's picture

Michigan had to wait for MONTHS before the NCAA decided to allow Shea Patterson to play last year.  

I think OSU has so much animosity or outright hate for UM in general and JH in particular that it clouds everyone’s judgement.  UM has three major rivals with OSU the biggest but MSU not far behind and Notre Dame.  They do not like Ohio State but do not share the out and out animus toward them as OSU does for “SCUM.”

If nothing else, Harbaugh plays by the rules.

HopCassady40

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hnyg8modonwelfare's picture

Schembechler called Jim Tressel, “a snake in the grass,” when he was hired by OSU.  

Carr threw Tressel under the bus with dog gate, doubted his word publicly, and on many other occasions attacked is character in subtle ways. He also whined when Tressel would not endorse TSUN for the NC game in 2006.

Both “Michigan Men” have implied OSU as inferior off the field many times.

Harbaugh, while maybe a psycho, hasn’t been as nauseating as the other two when it comes to the disrespect of OSU people.

Thank you Urban Meyer and Gene Smith

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Ohiostate1957's picture

 Schembechler also described Tressel as a nice guy, very charming and a "helluva recruiter."

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

How would Carr ask Tressel to endorse Michigan for the title game when they lost to you guys. It was 1 vs 2 at the time am I missing something?

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Fight To THE End's picture

With all due disrespect, Harbaugh is much worse than Bo and Lloyd. I enjoy watching the dumpster fire.

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andretolstoy's picture

Lloyd and Bo shouldn't even be in this conversation. You're comparing real men to a dude that farts when he walks. 

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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buckeyefan67's picture

Andre...I dislike Hairbaw as much as the next guy.  But I am here to inform you, as you get older flatulation when you amble does occur.  Unfortunately, I speak from recent experience but I'm afraid my immediate  fake heavy "cough" wasn't  too convincing in the store.  Perhaps you can do better when you are of retirement age ;)   This has been a public service announcement.

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andretolstoy's picture

Duly noted and acknowledged 

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

No.  What we are expecting is for coaches NOT to lie and do what’s in the best interest for the kid.  Because I fucking guarantee you, when asshole sat in Hudson’s living room recruiting him, that’s what he told his Mom would happen.  I find it interesting that even Satan helped his player be immediately be eligible.  But not Asswipe Hairball.

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MaineStrength's picture

No.  What we are expecting is for coaches NOT to lie and do what’s in the best interest for the kid

I'm confused...what are you suggesting JH lied about?  By all accounts it looks like he didn't lie about anything and was unwilling to go along with the mental illness thing because he didn't know about it and/or was never told.  What's he lying about?

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

He lied to Mrs. Hudson that her son's welfare was a concern of his when Hairball was sitting in the Hudson living room on their in-home visit.  So when she comes to him for a meeting about something SHE'S PROFESSIONALLY EXPERT about and he just blows her off.  THAT's a lie.

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andretolstoy's picture

That's because Saban is actually a man of character too. You don't build a program like he does being a used car salesman. I really can't believe I just wrote this … 

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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kmp10's picture

I agree, MS. Harbaugh, petulant little bitch though he is, shouldn't be taken to task because he wouldn't 'lie' in order to enable a player to gain immediate PT elsewhere. It seems that Fickell wanted Harbaugh to back up Hudson's depression claims, and Harbaugh said, 'I didn't know anything about those claims and I'm not going to say I did just so the player will be immediately eligible for you.' To me, that's a reasonable position to take... but not necessarily one with which I agree.

Some people, Jim Harbaugh included, apparently, take the position that it's never okay to lie... and those people are wrong, imo. There are myriad scenarios where lying is the preferred option to telling the truth; protecting someone's feelings, protecting a friendship after a disagreement over something totally unimportant to you, but extremely important to the friend with whom you're arguing, lying to someone who's out of control in order to get them to calm down and not hurt others, exaggerating praise we give to kids in order to encourage them to keep going regarding a particular sport they're playing, but at which they are not yet very good. These are all lies, and they're good lies, imo, as the end result of these lies is better than hurting someone or discouraging someone because one feels it's important to "always tells the truth." Jim Harbaugh says the people with whom he's dealing will always get 'truth' and 'honesty' from him, and in general that's a fair policy, but sometimes the 'truth' that Harbaugh feels he must tell leads to totally unnecessary negative consequences. People who live in black and white worlds always amaze me. 

When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's 

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cricejr's picture

He obviously lies, as he's previously told their teams that they're good and that they could beat THE Ohio State University.  Hell, he lied at B1D days when he said Michigan should be considered the best team in the conference. So what I take away is that the only time he lies is to his own personal benefit.  But then again, who knows if he's lying about the kid telling him about his issues?  Perhaps he construed what the kid told him as something else and not mental issues. 

I bleed scarlet...literally

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EZE4TD's picture

Saying they will beat OSU and that they will compete for a playoff spot doesn't make him a liar if he truly believes it. It just makes him dumber than shit.

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LandonTruckedCollins's picture

People who live in black and white worlds always amaze me.

I hope nobody takes this the wrong way or is offended but typically people with autism live in black and white worlds.  I've always wondered if Harbaugh was on the spectrum.

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MaineStrength's picture

typically people with autism live in black and white worlds.  I've always wondered if Harbaugh was on the spectrum.

It's called splitting, which is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together positive and negative qualities into a realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism.  The person tends to think in extremes, like an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad.  This can also cause instability in relationships.  I could see him having a degree of all that, but it sounds more like a personality disorder rather than autism, which have some parallels.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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MaineStrength's picture

Upvote for a reasonable and unbiased take! :) 

Jim Harbaugh says the people with whom he's dealing will always get 'truth' and 'honesty' from him, and in general that's a fair policy, but sometimes the 'truth' that Harbaugh feels he must tell leads to totally unnecessary negative consequences.

I'm all for scrutinizing other stuff, but it's hard to knock a guy for following his beliefs.  People may not like him, but most people will respect someone that follows their beliefs. 

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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PhillyNut's picture

No.  But often the delivery of the message can sway things one one or the other.  Why not "Look, we do not have documentation that the player approached any coach or anyone in the administration that he was struggling with depression or any other mental challenge.  That said I am not in the position of saying that he was not having challenges.  Ultimately we have the best interests of our players at heart and in this case the player and his parents decided that he needed a change.  We wish him the best and fully support his desire to transfer."

Harbaugh does that and he (1) is not lying about what he knew, (2) he shows that he and ttun support the player, and (3) he cannot be shown as being an obstacle. Sends a good message all the way around.  Harbaugh's problem is that he cannot get out of his own way and actually think through things.  And he in no way helped the situation when he made the comment about kids making up mental health issues just to get immediate playing time.  Newsflash Khaki, that is not your concern.  That is up to the NCAA to worry about.  All it does is actually indicate that you want to be judge and jury when you are actually neither.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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Chic'sGhost's picture

There was never an allegation that in order to allow transfers, coaches had to lie.  Nowhere.  

Some see it as believing or not believing a kid's assertion that depression or other mental condition comes into play. If Harbaugh didn't believe this player's story, he could choose to still let him go giving him the benefit of the doubt, or he could just simply block the transfer because he didn't believe the story.  I don't think that a coach has to lie in order to allow a transfer. 

Maybe Dobbins will get tired. Michigan Man, 11-30-2019

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MaineStrength's picture

If Harbaugh didn't believe this player's story, he could choose to still let him go giving him the benefit of the doubt, or he could just simply block the transfer because he didn't believe the story.  I don't think that a coach has to lie in order to allow a transfer. 

From all accounts he did nothing.  He neither persuaded compliance to let him transfer nor held him back by saying he shouldn't.  He just let the system handle.  So, it appears he would have had to persuade them to let him go, which seems to require lying about the mental health issue.  That's how I took it.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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Extramedium's picture

The story is that Harbaugh didn’t know about the mental health issues because Hudson didn’t say anything, and so when asked by the NCAA, he told them the truth that he wasn’t aware of anything.   I have no idea if he actively tried to block his eligibility or not, which would be incredibly petty... but if he truly didn’t know about the depression because the kid never told anyone or sought help, I can’t see that he did anything wrong.  In this instance at least.

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BornAndBredABuckeye's picture

It would be a little bit different if Blue Smith didn't leave OSU for a similar reason and had no problems getting cleared. Harbaugh and Michigan suck, end of story.

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Snake64's picture

Blue Smith had recorded information that documented he was having mental health issues. James Hudson did not and TTUN has a very solid mental health program for the athletes. For whatever reason Hudson chose to never use this resource or reach out to the coaching staff and inform them. OSU helped Smith because there was evidence, Harbaugh did not help Hudson because it would have forced the school and himself to lie and make stuff up to prove Hudson supposed mental health issues. I really don't understand some of this fanbase. It seems pretty cut and dry, Fickell asked Harbaugh to lie for the kid and rather than risk getting in trouble he chose to tell the truth that he was never informed of any issues nor was the school.

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BornAndBredABuckeye's picture

It seems cut and dry? How so? Because you only heard what Harbaugh said? That must be the entire story. We may never know the truth, but just because the kid didn't seek help doesn't mean he doesn't have mental health issues. There are probably millions of people in the world with mental health issues that chose not to ask for help because of the stigma that still exists.

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Snake64's picture

I read both sides of the story at this point. I'm not trying to take Harbaugh side because i don't want to but it's hard not to at this point. I'm not saying the kid doesn't potentially have mental health issues but since there's no evidence to support his claim while there is a pretty nice program at TTUN to help student athletes with mental health it's hard to support his claim. It's even harder to see a coach ask another coach to lie about it to help the kid especially if Harbaugh was never aware of the situation in the first place.

If evidence comes out Harbaugh or the school had evidence then i'll change my tune. As of now Blue Smith had the evidence of mental health issues so it's easy for OSU to support it and back it. Not so easy if the kid chooses to either "hide" it or make it up later.

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Matta World Peace's picture

The most important piece of the puzzle IMO is the meeting that Glenda and James had with Harbaugh and Warriner. The Hudson's frame that meeting as a discussion about him struggling with his mental health, Harbaugh seemed to take it as he's struggling with the position switch and playing time, but didn't register any discussion of a mental health issue. Harbaugh is such a football nut that I guarantee he goes into that meeting expecting to hear a kid and his parent talk about playing time (which is understandable -- it's a tale as old as time..) That's what he was expecting to hear, so he didn't hear anything else.

Bottom line, the same meeting happened and there two different versions of the 'truth.' Harbaugh won't empathize enough with the kid to see his perspective on the conversation as anything but a whiny complaint about playing time. He could have (should have?) had paperwork to support the kid's transfer if he had opened his eyes beyond football. 

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The Rill Dill's picture

Why would Harbaugh block a kid from going to Cincinnati? What a dope. 

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Snake64's picture

That's kind of my entire point. There's no reason for him to "block" or make it difficult for him to transfer. Hudson will never be on a Cincy team that plays Michigan so it doesn't affect him in any way. Saying otherwise is dumb and just being an ass to be an ass. Especially when higher rated players have already transferred within the conference and the division and gained immediate eligibility. If he was going to block anyone it would be those kids not Hudson.

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allinosu's picture

Did you not read Fickell's side. Every time he wanted an answer to a question Harbaugh went on a rant the he won't lie which had nothing to do with the question. Just reviewing a few of Harbaugh's press conferences should be enough for you to see it yourself.

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Snake64's picture

Not even going to dignify your comment with a real response. I clearly pointed out in this very thread two comments ago that i read both sides. *FACEPALM*

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allinosu's picture

Dignify nothing,. You have no footing. 

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Snake64's picture

Not even going to dignify your comment with a real response. I clearly pointed out in this very thread two comments ago that i read both sides. *FACEPALM*

Harbaugh is an idiot most of the time. But in this instance he chose his program and university over a former player, that was asking him to potentially lie. This is the type of thing we preached we wished Urban would have done with ZS. Instead he chose to protect ZS and it hurt him, the program, and the university.

I'm not trying to necessarily defend Harbaugh but i am against this crazy hypocrisy within our own fanbase. 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

What lie?  Are you saying that Ryan Day and Nick Saban lied for their former players?  Or did they just go to bat for them because they still care about their future?

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allinosu's picture

What's crazy here. I know the multiple threads about him on here is plain bullshit but there are ones such as this one that have merit just by his normal attitude on display in press conferences. The same could be said on the UM boards about Urban. I would not hesitate to take Fickells word over JH ever. Not because of the OSU UM thing but because of their individual past histories. Do you really (deep down) think Luke called up JH and said 'will you lie for this kid' (Luke is smarter than that knowing full well Jim's nose is already out of joint about the situation )? Or is it more likely JH went on a rant of I won't lie to every question (which he already asked Saban and Day) about the problems the kid was having at UM so he could help him? Which REALLY sounds like their personality? To me it's a no brainer and not because of JH's history as well as Fickells. I called out this post in an above comment about BO and Carr because I believe they were GOOD men as well as coaches but JH is no where near them in that regard.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

First of all, as the parent of an athlete that battled depression, one of the many symptoms that can manifest itself is an unwillingness to “confess” to the program that there is a mental health issue.  The stigma is an obvious reason.  But also, showing “weakness” is anathema to an athlete in a highly competitive situation.  So not consulting the support staff should not be a reason to fight the transfer.  If you truly cared about the player, and didn’t think about him as anything other than “meat on a hoof”; then this would be obvious.

anyone who has ever dealt with depression, either personally or through a family member should be appalled by this story.  But then it’s the weasels so nothing should surprise you.

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ScarletnGreyTexan's picture

who the F would down vote your comment? I agree completely.  as someone who has actually dealt with depression it is the hardest thing in the world to 1. open up about 2. recognize you are. 

There are so many people in this world that still believe the solution is to "toughen up" or "quit being a bitch". It isn't or doesn't have anything to do with it. 

I lost my job, a job that I was great at and excelled at in multiple ways but the new president didn't understand our business and decided to make cuts based on his own beliefs of the direction we should have gone. To say I was caught off guard when I got laid off is an understatement. It also coupled with the fact that it was a bad time in our industry so there weren't other jobs to find. I sank into a seriously bad depression and thankfully it was my Dad who recognized it and confronted me. ironically he was the one guy I thought who wouldn't think I was depressed and would tell me to suck it up but when he finally talked to me it was like a weight was lifted off my chest and I emotionally crashed. I wasn't scared of any stigmas anymore and I finally reached out to find help. I still get worried and now have developed some anxiety issues but having the ones you love and trust BELIEVE you and allow you to be open about it is nothing like anyone can imagine. It is life changing

"it matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
GO BUCKS!!!!!

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Ohiostate1957's picture

Which is exactly why you two  cannot be objective about what happened here. You are letting your personal emotions and dislike of Harbaugh color your judgment on this.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

LOL.  Yeah, I can’t comment on a subject I’m familiar with because I can’t stand Harbaugh.  They’re mutually exclusive opinions.  You don’t know me from Adam; but you can tell that my judgement on this issue is colored by personal animosity.  Who the fuck are you to make THAT leap of logic?

i know a lot about athletes and their mental health because one of the most important persons in my life dealt with this exact situation.   So screw you and your son Hairball.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

No.  Just pointing out stupid asshaterry.

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cricejr's picture

It's hard to believe you know the goings on in ann arbor, or what the kid told harbaugh. 

I bleed scarlet...literally

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OSU56's picture

Here's what Fickel had to say, via Fletcher Page of the Cincinnati Enquirer:

"We had a couple kids (get hurt) yesterday and I spent time with them, spent time talking with their families," Fickell said. "That, to me, was more important than what Jim Harbaugh had to say about us and our program or me in general. But I know where we stand. I know that James Hudson has done a lot of things and it’s a shame, and I know guys can get eligible... It has a lot to do with the programs they’re coming from. That is what it is, and if we’re not going to get any help from them – which we didn’t, James didn’t – then it’s pretty much a moot point." 

...

"There’s a reason why I called," Fickell said. "Just like I called Coach Day at Ohio State and Coach Saban at Alabama. I did nothing different than what I did with those guys and the results are different," with Hudson and Michigan. 

...

"I’ve got notes if you want them," he said. "Nothing more than asking, 'hey, what’s your stance on James? Are you going to help the kid?'

"It wasn’t like pleasant or anything. It was kind of cold. It was short. It wasn’t a long conversation. It wasn’t hard to figure out what their stance was. They supposedly weren’t going to hold (Hudson's waiver) up but they weren’t going to help him."

...

"We saw how it works with coach Day at Ohio State and how they helped Blue Smith out, to be honest with you," Fickell said. "So, whether people know a lot about that, they wanted to help the kid. They didn’t want to lose him, but they wanted to help him. They did stuff to help make him eligible here and gave him an opportunity to be eligible."

Enjoying daily the back to back ttun beatdowns.

 

HS
tcm1968's picture

I don't think Harbaugh blocked the kid. I just think he didn't do anything AT ALL to help. OSU has gone to bat for every kid who has wanted to leave. Harbaugh is just being Harbaugh... You want to leave.... screw you.. I'm not lifting a finger to help.... total turd.. 

Go Bucks!

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hnyg8modonwelfare's picture

Right. That's how Fickell put it apparently:

Fickell said in the story that Michigan “didn’t back the waiver. They can say what they want to say, but the only thing they said that was positive was that if the NCAA chooses to make (Hudson) eligible, then they would accept it — that they didn’t have an angle. They are just trying to cover their ass. They can say they didn’t undermine it, but they didn’t work to help the kid out.”

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/201...

Thank you Urban Meyer and Gene Smith

HS
Snake64's picture

He didn't help the kid lie. That's all he didn't do..... I don't understand the backlash other than our dislike for the program. I think this pretty clearly points out that Hudson was transferring and tried to make up a reason for immediate eligibility. Probably the entire reason for his remark at the media day. 

OSU has gone to bat for every kid? we only know of one and that's Blue Smith. I bet Baldwin would like a  word with you about the university going to bat for him...

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Squirrel Master's picture

Reading your posts, you definitely have a negative attitude about OSU and what the program does. You say we alot but you dont seem to enjoy anything about the team.

Trying to help the kid lie, how about letting the kid move on and helping him without being a jackass about it. It doesn't have to be a lie as much as just move on and stop road blocking kids.

And every kid that has transferred from OSU in the past two years outside of Baldwin has been approved for immediate eligibility with help from OSU. William's, Burrow, Tate, etc. Baldwin had help from OSU but NCAA changed its rules. Wasn't OSU doing what Harbaugh and UM did, not help!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

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Buckeye Hill's picture

I agree with Snake we don’t know the whole story. If Fickell wanted the TTUN coach to lie about Hudson situation, I wouldn’t have done it. 

As far as us we don’t have enough information to say what our coaches did or didn’t do regarding transfers. 

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Squirrel Master's picture

We have plenty of evidence of what OSU did to help transfers from the players and coaches saying...OSU helped in every situation. There has also been plenty of evidence that Harbaugh, maybe not Michigan as a whole, has been divisive and unwilling to help players who dont help him with his agenda.

I dont know the whole story, that is true but the I do find it funny that Harbaugh seems to have issues backing and helping kids if they dont meet his needs.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

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Snake64's picture

Love the program, can't stand a large portion of this fanbase. There's a reason OSU fans were "voted" most annoying and it's not because we win a lot. A lot of my opinions seemed to be shared in secret as shown by the vast amount of people in agreement on the forum topic "Unpopular OSU opinions". I just happen to not be afraid to say what others are truly thinking. 

I don't see where TTUN didn't support the kid they just didn't lie for him. I have seen nothing from either side that claims he's "road blocking" him. If by not blindly supporting a potentially false claim and then being asked to lie about it is "road blocking" then i guess they can actually use the moral high ground here. Personally i think there should be no restrictions on a player transferring 1 time without issue and Harbaugh is on record saying the same thing. He's had too many kids transfer to other programs within the conference or in the division get immediate eligibility for any of us to say he's being petty and blocking someone his team will never play.

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Triv's picture

 If by not blindly supporting a potentially false claim

You do realize it's entirely possible (and is the norm for the vast majority of people with mental illness) that Hudson has struggled with mental illness but was afraid to seek help, right? Even calling it a potentially false claim is a slap in the face to every single person who has ever struggled with depression or another form of mental illness. People with your mindset are a part of the problem that created the stigma against mental illness in the first place.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

HS
Snake64's picture

I entirely realize that it's entirely possible he is suffering from mental health issues. The problem is Michigan has plenty of stuff in place for the young man to go get help. The university has a program specifically in place already for athletes with mental illness and by him not taking advantage of the situation while at the school is part of the issue. Over 20 student athletes are involved with the program so he was well aware it would be ok for him to check in. Why wait until after you leave to then come forward? I don't know why I have to repeat myself on this. He did not alert anyone of any issues and that's the problem with his waiver. Harbaugh nor Michigan are in a position to lie on his behalf and say he made them aware when in reality he didn't. Blue Smith had made it known while at OSU he had was suffering and that's been the difference between the two getting eligibility.

I guess you would be better served to know that I personally have been diagnosed with general anxiety and mild depression. So POSSIBLY I actually understand this situation better than you do with your high horse and self righteous attitude. 

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OSUlewis's picture

Why are you trusting in Harbaugh’s word but not Hudson’s? You keep clamoring about Harbaugh saying Fickell asked him to lie. From the article, I only get the impression that Fickell wants Michigan to support the waiver. It doesn’t require lying to support a student athlete who says he is suffering from depression. 

Also, was it stated somewhere that Hudson knew of 20 teammates currently being seen for mental health? Maybe I’m wrong but I doubt the players would be openly talking about it.

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

20 student athletes. Not necessarily football players. Ya, Fickell wanted Michigan to support the waiver. By supporting the waiver, that would mean to go along with the things Hudson is saying even though Michigan and Harbaugh have no evidence that he was depressed. That is Harbaugh's point, this is on the NCAA, not Harbaugh.

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GlassCityBuckeyes's picture

I guarantee that if Fickle wasn't the coach Hudson would of had more support in his transfer. It's nothing more then sour grapes over two decades of mediocrity and not looking out for the interest of the kid. He don't want to play for that delusional scum bucket and I don't blame him. Get over ficks former affiliation to tosu. And Harbaugh is a flat out lier, when he says he wasn't involved in Patterson's transfer. As I distinctly remember the team charter in Oxford when it surfaced he was in the portal.

Ann Arbor is America's asshole.

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GlassCityBuckeyes's picture

Matters a fact here's a article of when Jimmy showed up at Patterson's apartment.https://theathletic.com/671176/2018/11/23/the-inside-story-of-how-michig...

Ann Arbor is America's asshole.

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OSUlewis's picture

Harbaugh/Michigan can support the waiver even if they didn’t know about Hudson’s depression. To support him does not mean that Michigan does not take mental health/depression seriously, if anything it speaks to the contrary.

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Triv's picture

So POSSIBLY I actually understand this situation better than you do with your high horse and self righteous attitude. 

It's not high horse or self righteous to have a general enough understanding of our world to know that the vast majority of mental illness goes undiagnosed because people are afraid to come forward due to the stigma. I'm actually quite happy that you had the strength to talk to someone about it, but I would also think you'd understand better than the average person that admitting it to someone other than yourself is extremely difficult.

Also, assuming you're the only person on this board that has ever struggled with mental illness and therefore are the subject matter expert here is wildly ignorant too. Many of them also have probably never sought help for it, which makes those people infinitely more qualified to talk about what Hudson may have been feeling than you.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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Snake64's picture

I'm not claiming Hudson doesn't have mental health issues. If i did say that or insinuated i apologize. Wasn't my intent. My entire point is he had multiple opportunities to get help. Didn't even necessarily have to be at Michigan. He could have chosen a personal doctor or a therapist but he's done none of it so it's awfully convenient this comes out AFTER his appeal was denied. That's my point. The facts of the situation do not add up.

And i'm not assuming i'm the only person on this forum that has dealt with it. Didn't say that either so please stop trying to put words in my mouth. 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Are you positive he's never seen a Dr or therapist?  How do you know this?  Did he say that, I haven't seen him say that.

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Snake64's picture

If he did then he would have evidence to support his claim of mental health. The fact that he has no evidence which is the reason his claim got denied shows he never saw a therapist or a doctor.

Was that really that hard to come to a conclusion? No. We wouldn't be having this discussion if that were the case. wow.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

He never saw a Dr before he left Michigan, does that mean he hasn't since?  

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Snake64's picture

Does he have any evidence of it prior to his appeal? I'm just asking. That's the important part to his eligibility concerns.

If he hasn't seen a doctor yet and is claiming mental health issues that's a problem. I hope if he has real mental health issues that he has since reached out to professionals as his health is more important than his potential of playing football. 

If he has gotten help since leaving Michigan it doesn't change what Harbaugh or the university knows about his issues prior to his appeal. Saying they knew when they didn't is wrong. What if this kid really doesn't have issues and he's trying to work the system? Don't you see that as a potential issue? I do because it invalidates people with real issues and makes people less likely to believe them. 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Not having evidence of him having mental health issues is not an excuse to insinuate he's lying about them. Admitting he is suffering from it was a huge step in the process, normally you don't seek help until that happens.  No one is saying they should have admitted anything they didn't actually know, I seriously doubt even Fickell asked him to do that.  Not helping a kid you supposedly care about at all is a real PoS move though, especially if they could be going through something like this.  The harm of accusing him of lying about it is far greater than any damage caused by him working the system.  We've seen players here not come forward with their struggle first hand, and the results were tragic.  Doubting their struggle because you didn't see it or they didn't tell you about it can also discourage others from coming forward.

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Ohiostate1957's picture

Exactly - why didn't he get a psychiatric evaluation and submit it? His mother is in the mental health care field. I do a lot of personal injury litigation work - medical experts are easy to find and retain. Perhaps they didn't really believe it themselves. Or maybe they did have an evaluation done and it came back negative. a layperson is not qualified to make a self-diagnosis (a least not in the legal field).

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Could be numerous reasons he didn't ask for help, we've seen it play out here too.  Doubting the validity of his claims because he didn't ask for help is a really stupid course of action though.

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PhillyNut's picture

I do not know if he does or does not have issues. But having had a mother and a sister ultimately diagnosed as clinically depressed but taking years before they finally agreed to see someone I know it is not a simple situation. Consider the number of people who have committed suicide who never would see someone and there were only small things to indicate that they might be having issues. The last people who should be passing judgement/commenting on another person's situation are us lay people. All Harbaugh had to do was state that the player never approached him or the university. He did not have to question in the media the motive of players stating they had mental issues. He is the one who opened Pandora's Box that then raises questions about his own motives and role in the kid not getting the waiver.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

As a sufferer of “mild depression “ as you put it, then you shouldn’t forget that an unwillingness to confess your problem to people in authority over you is an extremely common symptom.  So, either you did forget that; or I call bullshit.  Or you don’t care about the subject and just want to push the weasel narrative.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Snake64's picture

I didn't forget any of that. You're missing the point. It is entirely possible he is suffering some mental health issues but if he failed to signal it to anyone. Be that at Michigan or to a personal doctor prior to attempting to gain immediate eligibility then it's hard to support the claim. 

I know very well how hard it was to go get help for my issue. I suffered for about 4 years before a former girlfriend kept on me to go get help. It's awfully interesting how you seem comfortable claiming i'm an asshole for not fully believing the mental health issue of Hudson. Yet are so comfortable denying my claim. 

Smart you are not. You're just an asshole clearly.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I know very well how hard it was to go get help for my issue. I suffered for about 4 years before a former girlfriend kept on me to go get help.

Thanks for making my point for me.  You, in an environment nothing like a Div 1 football program took 4 years to get help.  yet you seem to think Hudson has an unsupportable claim of mental health because he took 3 months???  And I'm the asshole?  (well, maybe.  But that's independant of this issue)

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Snake64's picture

Dude you are so clueless it's appalling. You're taking one thing and making it another. I said it took me 4 years that is no reflection of how long it did or didn't take Hudson to realize or not realize he has depression. I'm specifically commenting on the fact he had nothing to support his claim of depression before he filed for eligibility. That's my argument jesus christ man. If his argument for immediate eligibility was that he was depressed then there needed to be some kind of documentation before the appeal not after. That's all 

I also did NOT say he had an unsupportable claim i'm just simply pointing out why he most likely got denied by the NCAA. No prior evidence unlike Blue Smith. Half our fans only give a shit about this because it's coming from TTUN and the kid transferred to a school in Ohio. If this was a Wisconsin kid transferring to NIU nobody would give a damn. 

You're an asshole because you're taking my words and spinning them. Either you're doing it on purpose or you're delusional. It's only one of the two.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

'm specifically commenting on the fact he had nothing to support his claim of depression before he filed for eligibility.

IT SHOULDN'T FUCKING MATTER THAT HE HAS NOTHING TO SUPPORT HIS CLAIM.  Neither did Kosta Karigeorge.  IF he says it, that should be enough.  YOU ALL PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THAT.  Why can't you (or why do you refuse to) recognize that his claims of a mental health issue should automatically be taken at face value and accepted by Hairball. His public comments are reprehensible.  The fact he's the weasel coach doesn't change that.  But it fits the profile.

And calling me an asshole isn't helping you make your case.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Ohiostate1957's picture

"IT SHOULDN'T FUCKING MATTER THAT HE HAS NOTHING TO SUPPORT HIS CLAIM.  Neither did Kosta Karigeorge.  IF he says it, that should be enough." Are you for real? What alternate universe are you living in? If that is how you approach life you are in for a bucket full of disappointment son.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

As an administrator, if someone says they are suffering from a m/h disorder; it’s not your job to cure it.  But you damn sure better take it seriously.  

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
BlueBayou's picture

Just for clarification. James Hudson did not seek help for depression at Michigan.  Hudson’s mom had her meeting with Harbaugh after her son left the team and school, with that being the first time it was ever mentioned.  Harbaugh’s last dealing with Hudson as a player for his team was Hudson quitting the team and leaving school within 48 hours after he was demoted to third-string. 

The mental health narrative came AFTER Hudson had already left. Those are the facts that the NCAA ruled on, and none of the involved parties dispute that. Harbaugh and Michigan shouldn’t lie or fabricate evidence to support the transfer.  They provided just the facts and and even James and his mom don’t dispute that. They have just voiced they think Harbaugh could have done something to help get him his eligibility.  Harbaugh’s answer to that is Jame’s shouldn’t need Harbaugh’s help, James should have the right to transfer one time and be immediately eligible to play.. The system needs to be fixed so student athletes for the revenue generating sports get the same rights as their peers, both in academics and in the non-revenue generating sports.  

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

WTF do you call the meeting Mom had with Hairball?  It sure as fuck wasn’t a meeting to discuss transferring; unless you want to now call Mrs Hudson a liar too.  That was the first tentative step to an intervention.  But your M-man head coach is too much of a self-absorbed douche bag to recognize it or care.  But go ahead; keep whistling as you go past the graveyard and ignore the mounting evidence that as head coaches go, yours is closer to Hue Jackson than Urban Meyer.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
ScarletnGreyTexan's picture

Then YOU should know more than anyone how it isn't easy to one recognize or come forward about.  You don't get to judge someone else and critique whether or not they are or are not depressed because you have been. Good Lord, you are personifying the VERY THING PEOPLE WHO STRUGGLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT, being questioned or not believed. JFC man, stop typing and just let it go, we get it you don't believe Hudson had issues or he would have announced it to the school. One of the biggest problems with diagnosing depression is the very people who are don't recognize they are and don't seek help. It has been beat into every athletes mind that if they aren't good or being successful it's because they aren't trying hard enough or aren't good enough. Just quit commenting on this

"it matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
GO BUCKS!!!!!

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Squirrel Master's picture

I have no problem with the ugly truth, you just seem to have a lot to say about "the truth" yet I see little evidence of your love for the program. No excitement towards the good topics or positive stories. Just negative comment after negative comment about the problems in the program or its fanbase.

Me personally, voted the most annoying fanbase on an online poll doesn't resonate with me. That has no bearing on me and my fandom. I haven't said anything on here that has been rose colored in anyway. I just prefer not to harp on the BS..all the time.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

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Snake64's picture

Admittedly i can be seen as more of a pessimist or simply playing Devils Advocate. Majority of my posts aren't positive to most of this fan base but they are hard truths. I guess i don't see a need to blow rainbows up other members arse on this site. There are already too many scarlet and grey colored glasses on the site i don't think we need to continue to add to it. Lest we find ourselves as delusional as those up north. 

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Squirrel Master's picture

Well the difference between fans on this site vs those up north is that our team does win more often than not.

If you feel there is too much positive commenting and slanted talk on here, why even visit and provide pessimistic comments. Just dont comment. I'm confident we have enough hard truth on here with many posters who also like to make positive comments. I dont think there is a need for pure pessimism.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

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Monclovabuckeye's picture

Does Eleven Warriors keep records on most down votes earned in a single thread or day?

I don't give a damn for the whole state of Xichigan.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

They retired the trophy and gave it to me.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Aren’t you just full of yourself.  There’s a difference between hard truths and hot takes.  Based on this thread, I’m not sure you know that.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
PhillyNut's picture

OSU did support Baldwin, the rules changed impacting his reason to apply for immediate eligibility. Harbaugh and ttun did not have to lie to support the transfer. They simply could have said we support a player who has decided that where they are is not the best place for them and that they need to try another school. Then you let the NCAA do what they are going to do. But they chose to do nothing but leave it at the feet of the NCAA.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

Harbaugh has already "supported" better players transferring to teams within the conference. So tell me why Hudson going to Cincy is the one Harbaugh is going to try and stop at all costs since that's what people seem to think.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Well Harbaugh admitted he stayed out of it completely, why would he do that?  Why not go to bat for him like Day and Saban do for their players seeking transfer?  Seems like something you absolutely do if you care about the players you recruit.

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

Lets say what if Harbaugh went to bat for him, then it comes out somehow Hudson made it up? Harbaugh left this one up to the NCAA because he had no prior knowledge of his condition. It's been said over and over.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Harbaugh left this one up to the NCAA because in his own words "thats how he understands the process to work".  His rationale was because Ole Miss didn't help Shea Patterson, he shouldn't help anyone either.  He openly said these things, then hides behind his belief that Hudson was lying.  Real PoS move imo.  Even if he helps the kid and it comes out that Hudson was lying, what does Harbaugh lose if he truly wants whats best for him?

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

You can want what's best for someone and still not want to go along with a lie if that's what you believe in...Integrity. To me, this one is on the NCAA. I don't even like Harbaugh but what is he supposed to do, walk into the NCAA office and beat them over the head until they say yes?

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Is that what you think Day and Saban did?  Or did they simply support their former players in the process?  Something Harbaugh has admitted he didn't do.  I would love to know why everyone is so sure Hudson is lying too.  

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

I didn't say Hudson is lying. How is everyone so sure he is clinically depressed? We can sit here and play that game. Its all speculation. If Harbaugh isn't buying it, then he's standing mute and letting the NCAA decide. After all, it's ultimately their decision anyway.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Which is a PoS move if you care about your players.  Especially when you're on record that anyone should be able to transfer for no reason whatsoever.  Then trying to claim some moral high ground after admitting your true reasoning was you shouldn't have to help him because no one helped Shea shows without a doubt he only cares about himself.  No one has ever even asked Jimmy to lie, Fickell just asked him to support the transfer like Saban and Day but since ole Miss didn't do that Jimmy shouldn't have to apparently.  You can still support the transfer if you don't believe Hudson, especially when you apparently think Hudson should be allowed 1 free transfer for whatever reason he deems worth transferring.

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allinosu's picture

If you could read without bias you would know that OSU did back Baldwin's transfer.

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tcm1968's picture

OSU went to bat for Martell and Fields... Reports are TCU didn't go to bat for Baldwin because they didn't have to ( he had surgery and they already have a 5th year senior QB. The were fine with whatever the NCAA decided). OSU was engaged in his transfer.

It's not about Harbaugh "not lying". He wasn't interested in the process. Read his quotes. He said it's up to the NCAA, that he shouldn't be bothered, didn't understand why Luke was calling him... 

What Harbaugh should be doing and saying is/// "I signed this kid, brought him into the program, told his parents I'd take care of him.. if Michigan isn't a good fit I'll do WHATEVER I can to get home someplace else".....

Instead he just seems bothered by the whole thing.. 

Go Bucks!

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Fight To THE End's picture

Agree - Why couldn’t he support the transfer even if he wasn’t aware of any mental health issues? He said he believes players should be able to transfer once without penalty - Why doesn’t he backup this claim with actions? IMO, he’s hiding behind this excuse when he could just offer his support a transfer without acknowledging any awareness of depression, etc. Why does it matter if he was aware or not? If it doesn’t impact the NCAA’s decision, at least he could say he offered his full support but was out of his hands. Who wants to play for a guy like that? Coward. Good for Fick for standing up for the player and calling out Harbaugh.

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Seattleosufan's picture

Harbaugh is such an abrasively smug person.  No wonder no one likes the guy outside the fart huffers in Michigan. 

Deserves got nothin' to do with it

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mr.green's picture

Harbaugh is VERY different from Bo and Carr. They actually won Big Ten  championships 

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Jabba1977's picture

HAIRBALL IS A COMPLETE MORON!!!!!!!!!!

SECHATER77

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Byaaaahhh's picture

A coach possibly lied to the media? I know one renegade reporter with incorruptible virtues who will definitely not stop until the truth is revealed. 

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GlassCityBuckeyes's picture

But those who stay will be.....

Ann Arbor is America's asshole.

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Eph97's picture

Harbaugh also taking a lot of heat from the alums for praising Steve Ross after Ross said he was hosting a $250k per plate fundraiser for Trump. That's going to go over real well with recruits!

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

Why's that? Do recruits decide on a school depending on if their coach supports Democrats, Republicans, or Liberals?

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LandonTruckedCollins's picture

First UV for a Michigan fan on this thread.  That was just stupid, implying that no recruits are Trump supporters and all recruits care enough about politics to make an issue out of that.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Yeah, boy, Urban's politics sure hurt recruiting, didn't they.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
aboynamedtracy's picture

Harbaugh is just mad that Fickell called him to talk about the transfer instead of inviting him to discuss it at a sleepover...

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MaineStrength's picture

I think unsurprisingly you'll find most fans there are probably blaming Fickell and most here are probably blaming JH.  You may see a few scattered free thinkers that will venture out and give a more objective take, but fans will be fans.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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MaineStrength's picture

I've noticed you rarely let a UM related thread go by without a comment and you obviously follow MGB.  I'm curious, do you ever post there?

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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FieldsofJreams's picture

I peruse the board for a laugh, but I know to stay in my lane.

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MaineStrength's picture

You clearly have a strong interest in topics that involve UM.  I think posting there would add other perspectives to the board.  I'd welcome you to do so.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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FieldsofJreams's picture

1. Not enough time in the day.

2. I’m only interested in observing the bias and delusions of TTUN fanbase.  Some say the Buckeye fanbase is also delusional, however it would be better classified as rabid, due to the program being the most consistently dominant in CFB history.

3. There are only two types of users allowed on that site, preseason national champions and woe-is-me.  

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MaineStrength's picture

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a UM fan and poster there I'd welcome your input.  Come participate anytime if you change your mind.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

I don't like MGOBLOG but you have to ask why they would comment on sexual assaults at MSU, and not this Hudson thing which isn't much of a story?

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BlueBayou's picture

It is being talked about on the boards at MGoblog.  It has also been previously discussed there.  MGoblog isn’t as good as 11W on addressing current and emerging stories so they typically tend to be late.

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FieldsofJreams's picture

The thread was created several hours after I made my comment.

 It’s pathetic how they’re defending their made-up narrative, when they blasted Urban for every little shred of controversy.  I guarantee that if tOSU was the negative outlier on transfer-applications, they would be tearing into us.

It says a lot that Mgo has 3 separate threads going on the “The” patent w/ 150 comments, while only 100 comments on the Fickell/Harbaugh ordeal.

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OzzyGuy's picture

From The Athletic, here's a quote from Tom Mars (attorney who represented Patterson & Fields in their transfers):

I'll admit I haven't followed this as close, but Mars seems like a guy who would know these sorts of things.

@StephenToski

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Zonabuck's picture

Mars’ parents were both TSUN grads. He’s a lifelong fan. 

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BlueBayou's picture

Well, Mars is probably the most qualified person in the country when it comes to gaining immediate eligibility. He has been in both sides of this conversation and has all the access to the pertinent information. Everybody else is just speculating.

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Triv's picture

You're right, he is probably the most qualified in the country.

But I didn't see a single UM fan defending Fields eligibility waiver when Mars said "if people knew the whole story, they would have no problem with Justin getting a waiver."

You can't in good faith take that Mars quote about Michigan as fact, but also dispute Fields waiver without being hypocritical. It's both or neither.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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OzzyGuy's picture

Did Mars represent James Hudson, legally, in obtaining the waiver? I haven't been able to find anything that says he has; the context for which Mars spoke about Hudson, then, is a bit different than a quote about Fields (someone he DID legally represent).

It's still possibly hypocritical, but the context is important, as well.

@StephenToski

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NativeSon's picture

I believe it’s in the story that Hudson’s mom reached out to Mars but he declined to represent him because he didn’t have enough time in his schedule, but I could be wrong.

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BlueBayou's picture

Agreed. Mars knows what works for eligibility in this system.  He was able to successfully argue for eligibility for Fields and now says Hudson’s request wasn’t strong enough.  Does that have to do with where his pay check is now coming from?  Likely, but his fandom didn’t make him any less willing to help Fields get into tOSU, so I don’t think it applies to Hudson as well. He does have to maintain credibility with his new employer so lying to protect Michigan could only serve to hurt him in his new role.

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NativeSon's picture

He contradicted himself. First he says he can’t speak to the specifics of the case because he doesn’t know all of the facts, and then makes a comment specifically about the case from anonymous sources from one side of the story. 

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Triv's picture

Okay, if Mars word is law, where were the UM fans defending Mars when he said this about Fields?

Mars noted that other factors will play into the case, saying, "Nobody who's on social media would have a problem with Justin getting a waiver if they knew the whole story."

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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MGOBLUE0205's picture

I never had a problem with Fields getting immediate eligibility. Where are all these Michigan fans you speak of that have an issue with it? A few idiots on MGO?

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Triv's picture

It's not about whether they have an issue with it. If Mars word is gospel as it's being cited here, they should have been supporting it, not being indifferent. But that's beside the point.

If you think only "a few idiots on MGO" took issue with Fields getting eligibility, you didn't spend much time on the internet when it happened.

Here is one of the many reddit threads on the topic. It's littered with many fans, not just UM, calling the NCAA a joke for this decision.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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ScarletnGreyTexan's picture

All that quote proves is the Mars is a Lawyer in that he directly contradicts himself in one paragraph. 

"it matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
GO BUCKS!!!!!

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FieldsofJreams's picture

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/27382723/lie-transfer

Harbaugh made the front page of ESPN tonight at 10:40 PM.  Nice to be on the other side of a witch-hunt for once.

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PsyBuck's picture

Really makes me laugh when the scUM program and their entire fanbase constantly take the high horse approach to literally everything even though they are no strangers to their own well documented controversies.

The level of delusion it takes to believe that program is squeaky clean is staggering, but I'm convinced there aren't 10 fans of that team that don't actually believe they're perfect in every way in regards to ethics and scandals.

Oh well. I guess I'm inclined to continue letting them lose "the right way". Just think it's funny they believe their own BS.

"No we don't give a da*n 'Bout the whole state of *ichigan"

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MaineStrength's picture

Really makes me laugh when the scUM program and their entire fanbase constantly take the high horse approach to literally everything even though they are no strangers to their own well documented controversies.

Are you suggesting that JH is less ethical because he wouldn't lie to help Hudson?  That doesn't seem to add up.  If anything I'd think Fickell trying to coerce JH to lie would be the less ethical position.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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allinosu's picture

It appears you read one version and discarded Fickell's. Fickell said he always reaches out to the coach of kids that transfer this way to find things helpful for the student like he did Saban and Day but Harbaugh kept repeating I will not lie to every question Fickell asked. If you haven't seen that behavior just in his press conference than you are blind.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

What "lie" did he need to tell?  OSU didn't "lie" to help Martell or Smith, so why would the dumbass up north need to "lie" to help Hudson transfer?  What "lie" was Fickell trying to coerce Harbaugh to tell?  Harbaugh openly admits he stayed out of it completely, which is what Fickell said he did, what "lie" do you believe Jimmy is talking about?

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

That Harbaugh thinks the kid was lying about his depression?

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Of all the stupid shit we've seen that clown do since they hired him up there, this is the worst.  He just showed his true colors to the world, we always just figured he was a PoS because he's from there but now we have proof.

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MaineStrength's picture

leave it to TSUN to throw another coach under the bus for something as petty as a waiver.

I believe it was Fickell who threw JH under the bus first.  

This is all he said, she said.  This is what everyone should have said:

Hudson

Yeah I was unhappy because I wasn't playing and I didn't ever tell anyone because, duh.  But, the real reason I want to transfer is to play, like duh.  I said what I had to try and get immediate eligibility, which isn't technically a lie, but also isn't totally transparent.  I wasn't any more depressed than anyone else sitting on the bench.

JH admits 

Yeah I could have helped him by going to my compliance office and saying the kid was depressed,  I know that would help his case.  But, I didn't want to do that because I have no evidence of his depression and I don't think that's right.  I think he should still be eligible, but I don't think I should have to make up a story about it.

And, Fickell says

I called JH to try and get him to go speak with his compliance department to support this mental health argument.  We all know it's really about playing time, but who cares...the kid's already gone.  What does it matter why he transferred?

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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Triv's picture

Hudson

Yeah I was unhappy because I wasn't playing and I didn't ever tell anyone because, duh.  But, the real reason I want to transfer is to play, like duh.  I said what I had to try and get immediate eligibility, which isn't technically a lie, but also isn't totally transparent.  I wasn't any more depressed than anyone else sitting on the bench.

Wait... are you seriously insinuating that because it's not documented, that Hudson is without a doubt lying about his depression? That's a very dangerous stance to take, as the vast majority of people struggling with mental illness never seek help.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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MaineStrength's picture

Wait... are you seriously insinuating that because it's not documented, that Hudson is without a doubt lying about his depression?

No, I'm reading the tea leaves and making a tongue in cheek comment on what Hudson should have said if he was being 100% transparent.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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Triv's picture

That's extremely poor taste if your version of "100% transparent" means he doesn't actually have any mental health struggles.

I generally disagree with a majority of the times you get downvoted here, but this comment deserved every one that it got.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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MaineStrength's picture

That's extremely poor taste if your version of "100% transparent" means he doesn't actually have any mental health struggles.

My take doesn't assume Hudson does not have mental health struggles.  My take assumes it APPEARS the reason for the transfer is playing time and the potential mental health struggles were exasperated by not playing.  It was meant in a joking way, but you're right it probably was insensitive.  Sorry if I offended anyone.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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FortMeyer's picture

Harbaugh has historically taken the low road on several occasions. Why would this be any different? 

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HopCassady40's picture

Is this possibly much to do with Fickell’s deep hate for Michigan/Harbaugh?  I’m not a fan of Harbaugh but, although a major disappointment to date, he does run a very clean ship.

HopCassady40

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BlueBayou's picture

This isn’t an accurate representation of the article.  This isn’t unprompted by Harbaugh, Fickle is the one that started it, one, because he isn’t happy Michigan wouldn’t lie and it also makes for some great negative recruiting.  Fickle isn’t advocating here out of the kindness of his heart, and I’m sure it isn’t a stretch for everyone on this board to think the type of “backroom” conversation Fickle tried to have doesn’t go on elsewhere.  Harbaugh and Michigan don’t need to lie and fabricate evidence to help the transfer go through. 

What Fickle should instead be saying is he disagrees with the denial and that he too supports a rule where student athletes get one free transfer no questions asked.  He instead is doubling down on these back room proceedings and the need for student athletes to pay lawyers to increase their odds.  The NCAA representative is on record saying Michigan didn’t do anything to block it.  It is an NCAA decision.  Players have transferred from Michigan and gotten immediate eligibility. Drew Singleton is an example from this past year.  Just like tOSU has examples of players that transferred and weren’t granted immediate eligibility.

I say players should be allowed one transfer no questions asked.

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allinosu's picture

I have to ask you. Do you really think Fickell is the type to ask someone to lie or is it possible that JH is doing his thing again? I'm legit about this.

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BlueBayou's picture

I don't think Fickell thought anything of it.  I think Fickell's approach is becoming the norm because the coaches are operating in a flawed system and all he was attempting to do was influence information coming from Michigan.

Think of it this way and why these backdoor "deals" for lack of a better word for it, are becoming the norm.  In the current recruiting landscape, your P5 programs are consistently recruiting over their available scholarships.  This means that as a mechanism, it isn't a stretch to think that coaching staffs may help to get a student-athlete immediate eligibility at another school so they can open up a slot for the incoming class.  

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allinosu's picture

It still doesn't bode well for JH. His anger over this shows him a sore ass.

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BlueBayou's picture

He’s probably more angry that people want to talk about the Hudson case specifically, which is drowning out the key message.  Players should not need to justify their first transfer in order to gain immediate eligibility.  Just grant them their first transfer as non-conditional.  It is already being done for the non-revenue generating sports.  These players are not being treated fairly to their peers in these other sports.

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Crowd Threatening Bauserbombs's picture

Yeah but there is no one transfer rule. So you either help the kid or refuse to help the kid. Saying “we did nothing wrong because we didn’t object” isn’t helping the kid. That’s like saying I didn’t step on a drowning persons head when trying to explain why it’s cool you let them drown in front of you.  Nobody has made a single statement saying they actually helped. 

It’s weird almost every OSU transfer gets approved but Scum just can’t get it done. It must be because OSU as a school and program entirely lies to help all these kids who leave the program, even the ones who do on bad terms like Martell, and that Scum is the white pillar of honesty so they just can’t help these poor kids.  

OR, Harbaugh is just a vindictive asshole who won’t help a kid he obviously isn’t going to play anyway go play for an “inferior” school.  

Which one sounds more plausible?

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BlueBayou's picture

I don’t think any of this is vindictive. All parties involved agree on the most pertinent information to this case.  Hudson and his mom, Harbaugh, Michigan, Cincinnati, and the NCAA all are on the same page that Hudson did not seek help for depression while he was at Michigan. Case closed no matter what anybody wants to speculate.   That is a fact that all parties have stated is true.  That is the reason why his waiver was denied.  Hard to create a villain there when it is as simple as that.

The only way to have offered more “support” would have been to lie and say Hudson sought help for depression while there.  That is not ethical.  It might not be fair that Hudson has to sit out a year, but that is the system.

Now for me, I think it would be interesting to gather the data around the success of getting a waiver based on if their transfer opens up a needed scholarship for the incoming freshmen class or not.  I wouldn’t be surprised if players that are “encouraged” to transfer get more help from their old school to gain immediate eligibility than if it is unwanted attrition.  This conflict of interest for the schools is one big reason why student athletes should get one non-conditional transfer to play elsewhere.  Then you don’t need these behind closed door deals and the player will have more options.

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allinosu's picture

So are you also calling Glenda Hudson a liar also when she said she went to Harbaugh to tell him there was something wrong with her son and that he was depressed last October and they blew it off thinking it was because of the lack of playing time and didn't document it? Fickell didn't say UM tried to stop the transfer, only that they could have done the stand up thing and gave their blessing to the NCAA. Harbaugh (out of context ) replied to every question by Fickell, 'I will not lie' which had nothing to do with the question. That is not asking him to lie but a butt hurt coach making things difficult for everyone because he can. Though he did nothing against a rule, the bigger rule of being a stand up person was violated. 

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BlueBayou's picture

I’m not calling Mrs. Hudson a liar.  James left Michigan last October. The sequence of events were the following.

October 20th - Game - Starting right tackle gets hurt.  Andrew Steuber goes in, Hudson had been competing for the backup role, but this is first time it is clear he is 3rd string.

October 22nd (Monday) - it is announced James Hudson decided to leave immediately and will seek a transfer. This is 2 days after Hudson was bypassed on the depth chart.

After October 22nd - Hudson’s mom tries to discuss her son with Harbaugh AFTER James already told the coaching staff he decided to leave. As a parent, I’m sure she felt her son made a rash decision and was trying to reverse things.

Based on timing on how things happened, It is logical to speculate that James communicated to the Michigan coaches about not being happy he was bypassed on the depth chart and then told them he was leaving.  James has already left the team prior to Mrs. Hudson trying to talk to Harbaugh.  Why would they document it at that point when the conversation was after James left, and it was with his mom not the actual player. He was no longer a student there.

So yes, Hudson did not seek help for depression at Michigan, he left within 48 hours of being demoted to 3rd string, and his mom’s conversation happened with coach after Hudson had already left the team. The Hudson family isn’t even arguing the facts here. Im sure they had hoped Michigan would do more, but there really is nothing for them to do.

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allinosu's picture

You got your facts mixed up. Hudson didn't leave the team until December (Just read it from the Detroit news)and was a student with no one reaching out to him. There answer was to pull his room mate away immediately. Secondly according to Harbaugh the problem started with the position change from defense to offense much earlier so they knew he was struggling. Yes he said he was fine with it but it was noticed that wasn't the case. I have depression at times and it can be overwhelming and usually it needs a trigger and time to fester. The thing that amazes me is fan bases that go completely out of character for their team. I've seen it here at times also. At best UM missed the signs right in front them. I've only thought UM had two bad coaches (not by record but men with character issues) Gary Moeller and Jim Harbaugh. Jim will end up being a huge embarrassment for UM in the future.

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BlueBayou's picture

I might be wrong about the timing of when he left the school, I’ll have to go look. The timeline of Hudson quitting the team is accurate though. He quit in October within 48 hours of being demoted to 3rd string. Easily found on the internet.  It had been reported he left the school too, but makes sense he stuck it out to maintain good academic standing for a transfer.  It is also true that Mrs. Hudson’s conversation with Harbaugh was AFTER he had quit the team.  So at that juncture he wasn’t a player on the team.  If he is not on the team all Harbaugh could do is make recommendations, but he no longer has all the tools of the athletic department at his disposal.

As an additional question, since Mrs. Hudson’s conversation was in October and James stayed until December, why didn’t he seek counseling services through the school? They offer them for free to all students.  At least it was well publicized to the entire student body while I was there.  Maybe it isn’t free anymore, but it is a resource I used when I was there.  They also could have privately sought help right then as well, but all indications are that they still didn’t seek help then either.  Potentially Mrs. Hudson thought she could help him since she is a professional, but she also would know that you aren’t supposed to treat family members.  

The biggest facts that lead to Hudson not getting his waiver is that he never sought treatment for depression   while at Michigan or within so many months after leaving Michigan.  That is what the NCAA ruled on.  Mrs. Hudson would have told the NCAA about her conversation with Harbaugh after her son quit, And Michigan did not deny the conversation happened.  The NCAA did not grant the waiver even then.  

The other part everyone is completely ignoring is that Harbaugh is actually advocating for Changes in the system that would have benefited Hudson and will many others.  He just doesn’t believe he should have to massage the truth or lie to help a player get immediate eligibility.  He just believes they should have it regardless.

so here is the question for you. Why is Fickell not also leveraging this case to advocate for non-conditional transfers? Something that on the surface would clearly benefit his program as a landing destination for players that would transfer out of P5 programs?  Could it possibly be that he believes he is getting a competitive advantage in the current system?  Building a pipeline to tOSU and Alabama for players that get processed out?  Him not taking the same stance as Harbaugh in transfers and not wanting to change the system says something about something.

By the way, if players are getting processed this way and programs help get immediate eligibility for these players, I think Michigan probably does that too. Just maybe a different location than Cincinnati.

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allinosu's picture

Entering the portal and quitting the team are two different things. UM pulled his scholarship the instant they found he did which is within their rights when you just want to be asses. The thing you are ignoring accidently or on so much damage control you chose to ignore why they call it mental health for a in the first place. I had many of my patients claim they were OK and didn't need help when they were clearly in an altered mental status. When you take on these kids you take on the responsibilities that go with it. You err on the side of caution.  Instead of reaching out to him when he was clearly unhappy to make absolutely sure (even after his mother went to JH in person) they chose to isolate him by pulling his scholarship and his roommate. They dropped the ball period because he was still a student. Then to make matters worse JH pulls a crap thing like he did on his interview Cowherd and be a total butt head answering every question about the kid coldly and saying 'I won't lie" to every question about the kid. The reason I believe Luke over Jim is because of their history and personalities. IT WASN"T the stand up thing to do. Just by reading your answers your morals are compromised by loyal blindness and I am convince you think you are in your mind ight that JH did nothing morally wrong here.

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BlueBayou's picture

James Hudson quit the team. There was no pseudo state where he was still on the team and put his name in the transfer portal.  James quit and put his name in the portal later. 

While James was still a student when his mom visited with Harbaugh, he had already quit the team. Harbaugh did not have to take that meeting with his mom since her kid had already quit, but Harbaugh did. Also, at that juncture, It is highly possible James directly told them he was quitting and transferring because of playing time. Hence why Harbaugh would phrase that to Mrs. Hudson because that is what he was told.  

Additionally, what is the expectation in that scenario? If I quit my job should I expect to still receive the same perks from that company? No. Should I expect them to help me obtain another job? No. In the real world, depression or not, your choices have consequences. Could Harbaugh have said nice things to the NCAA? Sure, but he doesn’t have to and it doesn’t make him a bad person. That is how the system works. This scenario also doesn’t make Luke Fickell a good person because he has a personal interest in Hudson being eligible. Hudson is slated to be their starting left tackle. You can’t act like he has his stance out of the goodness of his heart. He personally is impacted by the decision.

As an aside, as a student at UofM, I had a period where I suffered from depression. I didn’t know what it was, nobody caught it and told me what to do.  I sought help through the services of the University. Now move forward to now. My college age son suffered from depression while attending college. His college didn’t catch it, we didn’t catch it, and he made choices during that period that lead to him to dropping out of college. He is getting the help he needs now, but he now has to work through the challenges that were created due to the choices he made during his depression. He also needed the time off from school to focus on himself and getting through his depression. No school is offering to reset his standings or fix things for him. He has to put in the work, learn to cope with stress, and push forward. This isn’t any different than what is being asked of James Hudson now. Do student athletes deserve to get special treatment when they make choices fully knowing the potential consequences?  Hudson is getting a real life education right now through this that will benefit him longer term and at the end of the day, these consequences aren’t going to harm him. I see that through what my son is learning.

Here is the deal, having a differing opinion in this situation does not create a moral high ground. My morals are not tainted by my fandom. If they are, then I would say yours are clearly tainted as well. Do I feel bad for Hudson? Yes.  Do I hope he gets the help he needs? Yes. Do I think he is being harmed by needing to sit out a year? No, in fact it can only help him be more focused on developing the coping skills he needs for better personal mental health. Do I think he has a right to immediate eligibility in the current system? No. Should he have the  right to immediate eligibility? Absolutely.  So instead of focusing on a single incident that impacts one person, why shouldn’t the focus be on fixing the system that clearly is not right?  

Again, I ask you, why isn’t Luke Fickell also advocating for student athletes to have one non-conditional transfer? He currently has a platform for progressing it and It is the right thing to do.  Instead he would rather point fingers at others and appears to want to keep the system as is.

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allinosu's picture

Where you and I differ is you go by quitting the team is quitting the school. He was still a wolverine until semesters end which still leaves the responsibility on the school and Jim Harbaugh. I always refer to Michigan as UM and not names like skunk weasels and so forth. I call a spade a spade when I see it. I didn't like everything Urban did but I see why he did them. I don't think Tress is a cheater because I think he was trying to help the athletes and took a bullet for it. Lloyd Carr (and BO)was a fine man as well as a teacher of young men. I don't see Harbaugh in the same light or anywhere near it. He's a bully who skirted the rules as much as possible to gain an advantage which is the reason the rule books are as big and complicated as they are. I think he would bully Luke if it wasn't for the fact Luke would burry him in 4seconds. Harbaugh hid behind the one non-conditional comment just to take a shot at Hudson faking depression. What big man he is for that. Your blindness is in the MULTIPLE crap things Harbaugh has said or done that proves what an ass he is. Luke said he was for the rule to be changed but that had nothing to do with trying to inquire about Hudson's problems at UM. I've said in other post the kid should get himself together before playing again but that has nothing to do with JH or UM doing the right thing and send him off with what ever help they cim since he was once a wolverine. There is no way to spin this that the welfare of a wolverine (whether past or present) was on their minds. 

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BlueBayou's picture

I can see making the distinction that Hudson was still a student for 6 more weeks at the school. At some point though, where does personal accountability come in? Hudson’s mom is a professional and she didn’t get James to seek counseling right away when she was concerned about him being depressed? Why does Harbaugh bear a higher responsibility to get Hudson into counseling than his own mom who first thought he was depressed? He had free counseling to him for those 6 weeks at school.  Who knows, Mrs. Hudson might have made the decision it didn’t make sense to start his counseling there since he was leaving the school shortly.

while you only see Harbaugh as a coach and a competitor, you haven’t gotten the chance to see the person he is when he is outside of work.  Everybody will tell you that he is a very active, loving, and present father to his kids despite a job with high demands. He contributes to the local community, annually does a mission trip to South America, and became a loud advocate for accessible legal aid to the poor.  A good portion of his players talk about the positive influence he has had on them. He will definitely use tough love, and that just doesn’t work for every player.  All of that also makes up who he is. Nobody is perfect, but he isn’t a total asshole. Harbaugh was not trying to say anything about Hudson when all of this started. He was trying to say why he thought the system needed to be changed, and it wasn’t hard for reporters to connect the dots on what recent experience/player he might be thinking about when giving that example. He isn’t the best speaker and I’m sure he would find a better way to make his point if he had another chance.  

Also, Harbaugh did not hide behind the one non-conditional transfer. It is his advocating of it that started all this. He first advocated for that rule.  The very next day he was asked to explain his thoughts about it, and it was that explanation that lead to all of this. So that is a pretty large leap to say he is just hiding behind it.

As a last point, what is the right thing can be subjective, and sometimes the right thing is to ethically follow the rules. Just because Jim Tressel had good intentions doesn’t mean he made the right choice. He practiced poor ethics while attempting to protect his players.  I understand why he did it, I don’t harbor any negative thoughts about him for it, but ethically he was wrong and he rightfully lost his job over it.  I do still think he is probably a good person. If you measure Jim Harbaugh in the Hudson saga, it can be said that Harbaugh did the opposite. Harbaugh strictly followed the rules in an ethical manner and for his job it was the right thing yet he also is criticized. Why, because It wasn’t the most personal way to handle things and he probably could have had a softer touch, but a lot of people these days are saying college football is a business and that is how businesses are run.

Finally, I think this is where we are going to agree to disagree.  I appreciate and respect your thoughts and the willingness to have a well thought out discussion on this.  I also think we both will agree that we hope Hudson gets better and is able to be successful in life.

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allinosu's picture

o be fair I think Hudson is just mad because he got pushed into a position he didn't like and then got passed up on the depth chart. My whole point was JH was also pissed because the kid chose to quit instead of fight it out. That goes against everything JH believes and stands for and he just couldn't go with out one last dig and covered it with deflection. That's called passive aggression. I believe about half of what you said about him being so wonderful. Yes, I'm sure to those close to him he is very faithful and would lay down his life but this isn't war and things like attacking Gene Smith in the press is way over the line. If you ever watched him interact with his brother you can see that John has to pull Jim out of his skin for brotherly love. You got the wrong Harbaugh. The other one is the guru and I would shit myself if they hired him. The thing is that once a college receives a scholarship from a student both sides have a responsibility to each other in the welfare of the whole process. Pulling the kids roommate and isolating him when there could be a problem was NOT the right or standup way to go. What if he was worse than thought and committed suicide sitting in that room alone? You must err on the side of caution. He wasn't allin (sorry I can't help it) and they are better off with out him so give him all he needs to turn the corner and move on.

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ScarletnGreyTexan's picture

OR if Harbaugh really cared about the kid he could have been honest and wrote a letter of support that said " James is a great kid and I want to encourage you to allow him immediate eligibility. We recruited him to come to "TTUN" to play defensive line and upon his arrival we switched him to O Line. We have no objection to him leaving or getting eligibility"...where is the lie in there? there isn't but I can tell you this it would have gone a long way I bet. 

JH is only for making sure glowing praise is heaped on players when they are transferring TO TTUN

"it matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
GO BUCKS!!!!!

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

It’s a weasel narrative that the kid lied.  I’m stunned that so many on here are buying that shit.  Clearly, either you don't know anything about depression, or you are choosing to trash a kids reputation for nefarious reasons.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Harbaugh is banking on the kid lying about depression. But what if the kid really is suffering from it? Slippery slope and a poor look for Harbaugh either way.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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Ohiostate1957's picture

This whole thread is pointless. Everyone is speculating on what really happened. Would a kid play the "mental health" card to get immediate eligibilty? No more/less than people playing the "mental health" card to get a comfort animal on a plane or an apartment IMO.

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FieldsofJreams's picture

Your comment is pointless.  Nearly everything about CFB is based in speculation.

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Ohiostate1957's picture

Hudson’s mother, Glenda, who’s worked for 32 years in the field of developmental disabilities and mental health only said she was "concerned" he had depression. Clinical depression (i.e. diagnosed for which medication can be prescribed) is different than situational depression (e.g., lack of playing time). Don't you think if Hudson truly had diagnosed depression his mother of all people would know? Also aren't coaches/schools limited in what health information they can disclose/discuss about a player (e.g. under HIPAA)? In those types of situations one is better off not saying anything one way or the other. Time to give this topic a rest. DVers already having a field day with me LOL.

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Triv's picture

You're getting DVed for insinuating Hudson is lying about being depressed.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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Ohiostate1957's picture

Being depressed due to lack of playing time (situational depression, which we all deal with from time to time) is much different than being diagnosed as having clinical depression. Situational depression is not a valid reason to cut and run - you have to deal with life's adversities like that. You can't snowflake your way through life. If he has been diagnosed with clinical depression why didn't his mother say so? 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Do you need to be diagnosed with Clinical Depression to actually be suffering from it?  Who says he was only depressed because he wasn't playing?  I don't remember Kosta Karageorge ever being diagnosed with clinical depression, do you deny he was suffering from it?

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Triv's picture

If he has been diagnosed with clinical depression why didn't his mother say so?

It's pretty well documented that he never sought help, which makes it hard to be diagnosed. Whether that was because he wasn't comfortable talking about it or just was afraid of the backlash, we probably will never know.

That doesn't mean his depression was solely linked to PT and therefore strictly situational. hundreds of thousands of Americans every year never seek help for mental illness. That doesn't make their illness any different from someone who was able to find the strength to talk to someone about it.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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FieldsofJreams's picture

Situational depression is not a valid reason to cut and run - you have to deal with life's adversities like that. You can't snowflake your way through life.

Was Zach Slagle a snowflake?  

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BillShermansGhost's picture

YOU are part of the problem, and I do my best not to point fingers or call anyone out on here.  Part of the reason people don't seek help is comments like this.  Situational depression is still depression, and it helps to talk about it.  But according to you, people are snowflakes if they don't tough it out.

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Ohiostate1957's picture

Maybe its generational but I see a lot of younger people on the internet melt down in situations where I truly believe they need to "man up" - too much "safe space" mentality for my money. If you hurt someone's feelings you are the bad guy? Does everybody deserve to be believed no matter what? Does that go for Harbaugh too? You can't have it all.

Even if he had depression why is that a reason for a waiver? Won't he still have depression if the waiver is granted? How is the waiver going to alleviate his condition? If the only reason he has depression is not starting at his preferred position he will be having a lot of disappointments later in life. He had better learn to deal with that now rather than later.

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BillShermansGhost's picture

You still don't get it, it's clear you are watching the news and taking sensationalist stories as what is truly going on.  The people who are "manning up" are repressing these mental issues, and sometimes it leads to serious consequences.  So to answer your questions, it's just better to keep opinions to yourself.

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aj99's picture

It's not an age thing. It's not that simple. Sometimes people who are depressed don't fully understand the reasons for their depression. That's part of the whole counseling process.

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NativeSon's picture

Just wondering, do you have the ability to diagnose mood disorders or did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night? 

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NoVAsmitty's picture

Here's a question for you 1957.  Say you are a 14 year old girl (or boy).  You are being bullied at school and on social media starting at the end of your 7th grade year and accelerating through your 8th grade year.  You don't say anything to anyone because, well people who are depressed don't want to be a burden on their friends and family.  (That's ultimately a big reason why they commit suicide so as to not be a burden on others.)  About a month before the end of your 8th grade year, you are so upset in English class that you turn your desk to the wall and start crying.  Your teacher (a female and mother) sees this and thinks "oh middle school girls.  They are so emotional."  At that moment, was that "situational depression" or "clinical depression" or did it become "clinical depression" a month later when my daughter tried to kill herself?  When did she go from being a snowflake to being clinically depressed?  

“I intend to make Georgia howl.” General William Tecumseh Sherman

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NativeSon's picture

Since I’m assuming you’re not a subject matter expert on mood disorders I went ahead and consulted a licensed independent social worker that has a masters degree in social work and is currently a practitioner in the mental health field. I don’t want people to read your post and assume you’re right just because it’s on the internet.  I’m not a fan of arguing on internet boards but too many people have undiagnosed mental health problems to let it slide.

There’s way more to depression than just clinical depression and situational depression. I’m assuming by situational depression you meant adjustment disorder with depressive mood/stress response syndrome. Adjustment disorder with depressive mood is usually temporary and is due to difficulty coping with a life change. The attachment of depressed mood means someone is depressed as well as having difficulty adjusting. It’s generally treated with therapy but, while you can’t treat the adjustment disorder with medication, you can treat the depressive mood with medication if the person doesn’t respond to therapy/having suicidal thoughts and the episode may last for a while. Adjustment disorder can be removed once the symptoms are treated. 

Clinical depression, aka major depressive disorder, is a more long term disorder that’s can be treated with both medication and therapy. While this type of depression can be in remission, it can’t be removed.

Both of these disorders have similar symptoms but can have different causes. To simply say one can be treated with medication and the other could be caused only because of playing time is a very, very oversimplification of very complex issues.

We don’t know if James had one of these, or neither of these. But both of these are serious conditions that people should seek professional help with. I’ve been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and adjustment disorder with anxious mood. To anyone out there struggling, trust me, go talk to someone. 

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Dstacify's picture

Regardless of whether Harbaugh is right or wrong in this situation he's handling it like an unprofessional jackass (but then again what else is new, see his B1G Media Day behavior). Throwing another coach under the bus is just icing on the cake at this point. This guy deserves nothing more than to go winless against OSU for the entirety of his run at scUM and be forced to do a Walk of Atonement down the streets of Ann Arbor as punishment for it lol.

11 Strong.

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Sanantonefan's picture

Harbaugh is a dweeb. Not necessarily because of this thread...just because.

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

He's always been a strange guy, this situation just shows he's a terrible human.

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NoVAsmitty's picture

Harbaugh, Michigan, and their fans are pushing a false narrative.  Harbaugh stepped in it at B1G Media Days and continues to step in it.  As we know, football coaches are bad at PR and apparently even worse at listening to PR advice.  

Something that jumps out at me when I read Harbaugh's rambling statement in the tweet that Kevin posted in this morning's Skully.  Read it a second time.  I did.  So, the narrative Harbaugh and Michigan are pushing now is that Fickel or Cincy wanted them to lie and say Hudson was suffering from mental illness.  Wait a minute crazy Jimmie, where in your statement do you say that Fickel asked anything about Huson's mental health?  According to Harbaugh, Fickel asked him one question and one question only - about the position switch.  If Jimmie was never asked by Fickel anything about anything else other than a position switch, exactly when was it that Fickel asked Jimmie to lie about James Hudson's mental health?  Exactly who is lying Jimmie?

Coaches.  They just don't know when to shut up.  That whole Harbaugh and Michigan narrative is destroyed by that one tweet.

I don't know a lot about this situation.  I really know nothing at all other than having personal experience with someone dear and close to me who suffered from it, and it's always in silence.  

Something else that I do know, and I learned it early in my career.  It should apply equally as well to college football teams, coaches, and players.  When an employee decides to leave, the employee and the employer never burns the bridge.  As an employer, you treat them right, help them out.  They may want to return one day.  They may become a client one day.  You may want to hire another graduate from their university or someone your former employee knows.  Michigan can kiss goodbye ever getting another recruit from Toledo Central Catholic.  Michigan can kiss goodbye any recruit who suffers/has suffered mental illness or who knows a family member or close friend who has suffered.  And Michigan fans on this site, there are unfortunately way too many of those kids out there.   

“I intend to make Georgia howl.” General William Tecumseh Sherman

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Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

It's not something I talk about often but I've also never made any secret of the fact that I played for Stanford at the same time as Dave Shaw & I was friends with some of the mid 90's football players & wrestlers. I know Luke well and I've met Jim several times and have know quite a bit about him through the Cardinal grapevine.

Luke Fickell is one of the better human beings you'll meet. Jim Harbaugh is not.

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Triv's picture

Jim Harbaugh is not.

While on vacation one year I met someone who played for Harbaugh at San Diego. He told me that Harbaugh preached a system to his players on how to choose a woman, called BLAME.

B: Breeding, choose someone who can produce an athlete
L: Lettuce, make sure her family has money
A: Age/Attractiveness of... (continue to M)
M: Mother, that's what she will look like at that age
E: Education, book not street smart because a street smart girl doesn't need you

I'm not shocked he wasn't well liked.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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BillShermansGhost's picture

This reminds me of the DENNIS system.  (Always Sunny)

"The D.E.N.N.I.S. system refers to a fool proof system enabling men to obtain a woman's undying love, accompanied by life love devotion (if the man so desires). 

D- Demonstrate Value 
E- Engage Physically 
N- Nurture Dependence 
N- Neglect Emotionally 
I- Inspire Hope 
S- Separate Entirely

The way to win any girl's heart."

For those who have never seen the show, Dennis is best described as a sociopath.

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Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

Be desireless. Be excellent. Be gone.

(Also yikes, my initial post really needed some proofreading. )

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analyticalguy's picture

There are just so many reasons to be disturbed by that "BLAME" system.

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OSU56's picture

Desperate people do desperate things, in hairball's case, he likes using excuses and diversions on why he can't beat top tier teams, and here is another example.

Enjoying daily the back to back ttun beatdowns.

 

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MrNovak's picture

The article in the Athletic made Harbaugh look horrible..It shouldn't be a big deal because I couldn't see opposing coaches showing this to potential recruits parents.

Buckeye Alum from Cleveland

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LandonTruckedCollins's picture

I couldn't see opposing coaches showing this to potential recruits parents.

James Franklin says LOL

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gobucks96's picture

How sad, his new rival is UC...What a tanlged web we weave..

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Capt. Kline's picture

Depression is a insidious disease. Our son was diagnosed as clinical. Flunked out of college because he would sleep in his room for a week straight .

We lost him to suicide 20 years ago. Discovered he quit taking his meds, (two full prescriptions), because he "felt good and didn't need them". Common occurrence in the severely depressed.

Hole in the heart gets smaller and the edges smoother over the years, but there is still not a day that goes by that something/someone reminds me of him and generates good memories. 

Born and bred a Buckeye - Buckeye 'til I die

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I had a college athlete child quit because of clinical depression.  When the school insisted we get professional help, the test showed off the chart depression!  My wife and I had no idea.  She had been battling it from the start of her senior year in high school.  We just thought she was a moody teen.  The fear we had going through that process!  I feel for you Captain.  

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Capt. Kline's picture

I know what you mean about being in the dark. We just went back to Ohio last week. Stayed with a co-worker that lost his wife a couple of years ago. Now dating someone that we casually knew. Her 18 yr old daughter came home from first quarter at college, took her father's pistol and went out behind some pines on their place and ended her life. They were both home at the time. They were absolutely devastated and had no idea that she was suffering that much.

Suicide is still looked upon as a stigma/stain/fault of the victim. No one will willingly talk about it. Except someone else that had, usually, a family member that completed it. 

We had three people that came to talk to us after the loss of our son from the neighborhood. They all had it happen to loved ones in their lives but, never could discuss it with other survivors.

Hope your daughter has gotten the help to combat depression and is living to the fullest.

Born and bred a Buckeye - Buckeye 'til I die

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Yes she is.  Thanks for asking.  She is now married and has given me three beautiful grandsons.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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buckeyenut74's picture

Hate that state and that school. Not that I needed another reason to root against them, but I’ll add this to the list. 

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OSU56's picture

This I Fully expected from him as usual.....he's definitely out there in left field....

Enjoying daily the back to back ttun beatdowns.

 

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aj99's picture

This is just the next step in decline of the Harbaugh era. Everyone sees through this and knows that he's full of crap and that he was just being a jerk. Everyone knows that he could have helped this kid but he didn't. Everyone sees him digging in and looking like garbage. They know he's trying to cover up his true intentions which were to screw this kid for leaving. It's the MO up there. News will get around. He'll lose recruits. He'll continue to lose games. He'll lose the locker room. The guy is a stooge and everyone sees it.

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Bringer of JUICE's picture

Harbaugh could have easily said, while still being truthful mind you, "Although we do not have documentation of James Hudson's mental illness during his time at UM, we are in full support of his stance and would strongly encourage the NCAA to grant him immediate eligibility."  I think this is the crux of what Fick is getting at; no one, at least from my perspective, was saying to compromise your morals, but to actively stand in support of a kid.  

Oh and by the way, one could reasonably infer that, Harbaugh by stating that he was not going to lie or however he worded it, doesn't believe the stance that the Hudson's are taking.  Just my two cents

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MaineStrength's picture

Harbaugh could have easily said, while still being truthful mind you, "Although we do not have documentation of James Hudson's mental illness during his time at UM, we are in full support of his stance and would strongly encourage the NCAA to grant him immediate eligibility."

You're the first person I've read to suggest that.  You're absolutely correct that he could have done that.  So, clearly there is some dislike for the situation by JH about this.  Either he's frustrated with Hudson for transferring or he's frustrated with Fickell for pressuring him.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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Bringer of JUICE's picture

Absolutely! It screams of sour grapes on his part by not going the extra mile.  Remember, effort is free.  

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Port Richey Buckeye's picture

The only thing being thrown is Buckeye td's at Hairballs team.

Fuck eSECpn and fuck Mythigan.

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BuckeyeVet's picture

Well, now. Quite the thread, Must be the offseason.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."          - Groucho Marx

"The recipient of Oyster's ONLY down vote".

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NoVAsmitty's picture

Last I’ll say about this. Have probably said too much. All of us can benefit from self awareness. This is an opportunity for Harbaugh and his program to look within and ask “what should we do differently?”  He is obviously not. Michigan is a fine university with mental health programs to help their students and athletes. But the real question here is this:  “Blue” Smith had an apparent mental illness challenge well documented by the university and he was supported and helped by the football program. The common refrain from Harbaugh and Michigan fans about Hudson is “we didn’t know.”  That’s telling. Why didn’t they?  Of course Harbaugh and his fans will say because Hudson never said anything. People suffering from depression rarely do say anything. But how come Ohio State knew about Smith’s difficulties?  Why did he say something and not Hudson?    This is one of those opportunities for an institution to look within and ask “what could/should we have done differently?”  Instead, they are chugging down the tracks on the denial train. 

“I intend to make Georgia howl.” General William Tecumseh Sherman

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MaineStrength's picture

Last I’ll say about this. Have probably said too much. All of us can benefit from self awareness. This is an opportunity for Harbaugh and his program to look within and ask “what should we do differently?”

I think you've got a great point that it is an opportunity to improve.  All "failures" are.  But, JH's response seems like a defensive posture.  He's not going to give an inch because he feels like he's being attacked and he feels like he has a leg to stand on.  A more flexible/big picture response would be to say he feels like he met his responsibility, but that he probably still should have done a better job handling the situation.  He obviously didn't do that, so there is some criticism for him there.  But, despite not being willing to publicly admit that, it doesn't mean that behind the scenes he is not doing just that or won't in the future.  It's not uncommon that when attacked people get defensive and later come to learn from that situation, but it generally takes getting some time and distance from the situation to allow that more critical thinking to take place.  

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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OSU56's picture

My daughter is/was a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She was in the program helping others for about 4 years, after receiving her MBA in the program and then taking the state exam to be licensed in the state to practice and eventually left and went down another career path. It was dragging her down mentally with what she had to deal with and the low amount of resources and support provided to them to help deal with those that needed help. She did her best to help, but eventually she had to move in a different direction.

I support what coach Day has started with the Day Family Fund-there are many who need assistance and maybe some day there will be enough resources to help everyone. It is a large step in the right direction and much needed.

Enjoying daily the back to back ttun beatdowns.

 

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andretolstoy's picture

Ok. I'll just come out and say it. After this exchange between Fickell and Harbaugh I couldn't help it, but thought just popped in my head, "Good Lord, Fickell is going to be the next Michigan coach!" 

Make this go away …. 

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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buckeyenut74's picture

I would lose my respect for Fickell if he coached up there, yes, I’m serious. 

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dschuetz11's picture

Harbaugh did not BLOCK the waiver!

James Hudson WAS suffering from depression and anxiety, but did not tell Harbaugh, or his counselors, or seek any help, because he perceived that this would be seen as weakness!

He DID share his depression and anxiety, freely, with his friends and colleagues on the football team, and his mother!

Part of Hudson’s depression is that he was unhappy at Michigan, and did not like switching from defense to offense—a switch he NOW accepts—since he remains an offensive player at Cincinnati!

Fickell wanted Harbaugh to acknowledge that he knew about Hudson’s depression!

Harbaugh says he did not know! 

The NCAA blocked the waiver because when one transfers to another school, because of depression, one must attend a school within one-hundred (100) miles of one’s home-town—Cincinnati does NOT qualify—and without Harbaugh’s acknowledgement—there must be record of the student seeking help and treatment—there was NO record of Hudson seeking help and treatment for depression!

This was an NCAA decision, and Harbaugh was not going to LIE, even, if in some people’s minds, this is in the best interest of the student!

The BIG issue is that Hudson gets some help! His well-being and future depend upon it!

Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining!

~Judge Judy~

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blueinsconsin's picture

I can't believe Harbaugh blocked Baldwin's transfer too

Not here to troll...Go Blue

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Triv's picture

The fact that so many UM fans struggle to differentiate between "supporting" and "blocking" is laughable when they call themselves the country's premier public academic institution.

There is not one single rational person saying Harbaugh blocked the transfer. He did however, choose not to support the waiver. That's an objective fact. He's not required to by any means, but it goes a long way in the NCAAs approval process.

Also fun fact, it's well documented that OSU supported Baldwin's waiver. We now have two families on record saying Michigan refused to support a transfer waiver (Myles Sims family has now come forward as well).

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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blueinsconsin's picture

Yawn

Not here to troll...Go Blue

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Triv's picture

Yawn

So edgy. I'm in complete awe at how edgy you are, failing at trolling on an Ohio State site after two decades of failure

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

OSU helped Baldwin and the NCAA screwed him over. Harbaugh decided to be a fuckhead and screw over Hudson. Big difference.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Apparently another transfer's family has also just called out JH for the same thing. I'm unable to post now, but perhaps someone else can link it?

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