Skull Session: Dual-Threat Quarterbacks Are Better, Former Buckeye Quarterbacks Want a Starter Named Quickly, and Michigan is Getting Too Excited

Comments Show All Comments

Silver Sniper's picture

Let's take this a step further: I'd bet my job that Michigan won't have a better offense than Ohio State at any point in the next four years.

Playing with fire here!...someone please go knock on wood for us... 

HS
BuckInNashville's picture

I don’t know, you think the fact that Alabama has a top (or top three) recruiting class year after year after year has anything to do with their juggernaut status ?

thats just a fact that they do, and now we have been riding a top five wave for a few years with the 2020 class being rated the highest. So I don’t think it’s braggadocio talking here.

HS
AZ Buckeye13's picture

Don’t think he is worried about bragging. More worried about creating an “injury jinx” I think.

HS
Kangarooman's picture

Not to mention Gattis didn’t even call plays last year for Bama.  When the guy who did call the plays left, Saban would rather let Gattis walk then let him call the plays lol

HS
BbBnD's picture

Agreed, 4 years is a long time in college football. The scenario seems unlikely now, but both teams coaching staffs could look very different in 2-4 years. You never know. 

HS
Meek's picture

'any point in the next four years.' is the bold part. 'Any point' could be a Saturday that blue plays but the Buckeyes do not. The Buckeyes won't get any yards and if blue manages a first down that game, Kevin is out the door. I really like your skullies Kevin, I hope you manage to find a loophole to this.

- OSU ISE -+-  Premium Banter -+- OH48 80k -

HS
Kevin Harrish's picture

My team of lawyers is working damage control as we speak.

Dillon G's picture

One day closer to kickoff, and that dopamine coursing through our veins.

#walkaway

HS
PRO8's picture

There are usually 3 Heisman finalist per year so 33 finalist over those years.... I can see dual threats being 9 though they might not have been the #1 rated out of HS but the point is I think that Dual threats are that dominating when you make the comparison with Pro style and there were 9 dual threat finalist (?)... last year 2 of the 3 were dual threat out  of the finalist.

HS
PhillyNut's picture

His span of time is 12 years, not 11. When you include a range of years like that the total is always one more than the difference between the two numbers.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
WorthyBuck's picture

In addition, it might not be 9 of the 12 players who were finalists, but 9 appearances.  A couple of guys may have been finalists multiple times (Deshaun Watson, for example).

HS
Triv's picture

2006: Troy Smith, Darren McFadden, Brady Quinn
2007: Tim Tebow, Darren McFadden, Colt Brennan
2008: Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy
2009: Mark Ingram, Toby Gerhart, Colt McCoy
2010: Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, LaMichael James
2011: RG3, Andrew Luck, Trent Richardson
2012: Johnny Manziel, Manti Teo, Colin Klein
2013: Jameis Winston, AJ McCarron, Jordan Lynch
2014: Marcus Mariota, Melvin Gordon, Amari Cooper
2015: Derrick Henry, Christian McCaffrey, Deshaun Watson
2016: Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson, Baker Mayfield
2017: Baker Mayfield, Bryce Love, Lamar Jackson
2018: Kyler Murray, Tue Tagovailoa, Dwayne Haskins

So I count 8 finalists, unless he was using top 5 in which case there are a couple more in there

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

HS
macdaddybuckeyesupreme's picture

Troy smith dual threat, baker Mayfield dual threat lamar jackson dual threat, johnny manziel dual threat rg3 dual threat, marcus mariota dual threat. You missed several

Successful people do what they have to, whether they feel like it or not

HS
Kugel's picture

I was going to ask the question to whether those guys were considered dual threat without doing the research. My assumption is that they were, so I agree with this.

HS
Triv's picture

Troy Smith was the 8th ranked Dual Threat, so he doesn't meet the criteria of #1 ranked dual threat
Baker Mayfield was the 42nd ranked Pro Style, so he certainly doesn't meet the criteria
Lamar Jackson was the 12th ranked Dual Threat, so he doesn't meet the criteria
Johnny Manziel was the 13th ranked Dual Threat, so he doesn't meet the criteria
RG3 was the 6th ranked Dual Threat, so he doesn't meet the criteria
Marcus Mariota was the 18th ranked Dual Threat, so he doesn't meet the criteria 

The reference to 9 heisman finalists was just for top ranked prospects, not all dual threats.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

HS
Triv's picture

If you can find me a single ranking system that had those guys ranked as the #1 dual threat, I'll go ahead and bold them. That was the criteria, not simply "dual threat" if you had taken the time to read the tweet.

Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite

HS
osusteveb5875's picture

Yes they’re dual threat, but we’re they the #1 dual threat

HS
kareemabduljacobb's picture

Probably top 5, if so Braxton would be in there finishing 5th in 2012.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Finalists aren't just the top three.  It changes from year to year based on the voting.  It's whoever is invited to NYC. Tebow was also there in 2009.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
MichiBuck12's picture

Is it really necessary to name a starter? We all know its Fields. 

Michigan guys thinking they could be the best offense in the country is peak Michigan guys. To paraphrase a famous saying, the beatings will continue until humility improves. They just absolutely refuse to consider the possibility that they might not be the best. You can't get where you want to go if you don't know where you are. I've said a dozen times, until they are honest with themselves about where they are, they won't be going anywhere.

HS
PhillyNut's picture

I don't get them thinking that, at least at this point, when their running back situation is what it is but reality never stopped them from being delusional.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
allinosu's picture

What amazes me is that after reading from their comment section, they think they just discovered a new space age offense. Never mind that most of the country has been running it for years and when they hired Rich Rod no one got behind breaking tradition and it flopped. 

HS
buckeye phi's picture

Great point, Allinosu.  Apparently, skunkweasels have short memories. 

Say what you want about RichRod - but they hired one of the "fathers" of the spread (back in the day) as a head coach and resisted the changes he wanted to make.  Now they're acting like they're on the forefront of of some new offensive concept.  Amazing.

I continue to be thankful that our rivals are being coached by a fool -

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. - Will Rogers

HS
allinosu's picture

The other thing that makes me shake my head is that nobody up there thinks that speeding up the offense will affect their defense. They got away with subbing very little outside a few on the dline. They mainly were well rested after their offense ate up time on the field. They are not that talented not to take hits on defense with added pressure. Reporters are already concerned with defensive depth. They could end up like a middle of the road BIG 12 team if things don't go right.

HS
buckeye phi's picture

Yes!  Just look at the emphasis our coaches make on having a sound rotation (which obviously, requires great depth) - especially, on the D-line. 

Clearly, UM doesn't have that kind of depth.  But to be fair - few programs do -

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. - Will Rogers

HS
J-Buck's picture

"Clearly, UM doesn't have that kind of depth.  But to be fair - few programs do -"

Exactly, only elite programs like ours do.  And definitely not Penn State (per James Franklin)!

I'm a peacock Captain, you gotta let me fly!!

HS
Extramedium's picture

RichRod’s offense was pretty successful, it was his defenses that got him fired

HS
PhillyNut's picture

Just re-read the article and it is a future player saying it about a future class. So now it is not just the players saying wild things, they now have their recruits in on the act.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
Kugel's picture

Recruits are generally the worst, they have nobody to tell them they can't say ridiculous things. I will always remember Kyle Kalis talking trash when he committed to UM, and how did that work out for him? Oh yeah....0-5. Love it!

HS
NorCal Buckeye's picture

That, and they're all HS kids that are really good at what they do so theyre used to feeling like as a big fish in a small pond that their perspective matters a lot. With the advent of such an amazing media format likr Twitter we get the luxury of hearing the opinions of bold 16 year olds.

HS
buckeyedude's picture

The excitement of another mediocre year up here in the 419 from M fans is nauseating. They NEVER learn. 

"If you're not changing, you're falling behind."

HS
MichiBuck12's picture

Up here in the 616 I haven't hardly heard a word about them yet this year. The people around me are very very excited about the Detroit Lions though. 

HS
Scott62's picture

Grew up in the 419 area and life long (a full 56 years) Lions fan here.  Hahahahahahahaha...good one.  I’m not falling for “the Lions are going to be good this year”.

HS
TNT's picture

The mentality is ingrained in the fight songs... "Fight the team across the field" vs "Hail to the victors"

Aka, "give everything you've got to beat the guys you're playing" vs "heap praise upon the winners, which we assume will be us"

HS
MichiBuck12's picture

Absolutely this. I have said this many times. The arrogance with them is institutional. "The leaders and best" is in the fight song too. They believe themselves to be the victors, the leaders, and the best simply by virtue of being Michigan. How can you convince a group of kids to do the things necessary to become the victors, the leaders, and the best when they already believe themselves to be those things? 

HS
Steel City Buckeye's picture

Fields just mentioned in an interview that it takes some time to build trust with the guys before he felt comfortable taking a leadership position. Getting the official nod from coach day would go a long way in bolstering fields leadership position as the past signal callers attested too.

With that said I would like to see Fields lose his black stripe before being named starter.

HS
TURD_BUCKET's picture

Randy Gradishar not being in the NFL Hall of Fame already is criminal.  And he has only been a finalist twice?  C'mon, man, stop the nonsense and get him in there!

“Being average means you are as close to the bottom as you are to the top.” John Wooden

HS
PRO8's picture

 I think this is the situation where the team you play for and how they go ends up affecting how you're looked at by the voters . He checks all the boxes but that optic gets in the way I think. Will Joe Thomas make it in for the Browns  though is one situation where that may not happen though I could be wrong?

HS
PhillyNut's picture

Thomas is a first ballot shoo-in. 10 time Pro Bowler but 7 time All-Pro first team, 3 time All Pro second team. Gradishar was a Pro Bowler 7 times but first team All Pro twice, second team 3 times. Thomas has the longest streak of consecutive snaps played since they started tracking it. The biggest thing in his favor is how stats are now being used (like the PFF) to rate players which significantly reduces the requirement to have played on a contender for most of your career.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
Buckeye Chuck's picture

I don't think being on a contender has meant much when it comes to Canton, as it's understood that football is a complex sport where individual excellence is simply less impactful than it is in many other sports. Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus (drafted by the same team in the same year) were mortal locks for the HoF, and like Thomas, neither ever appeared in  a postseason game.

Gradishar ought to go in; he is certainly deserving. I noticed a few years ago that a lot of excellent linebackers from that general era had been ignored by the Hall, but Robert Brazile getting in a year ago might be a sign that's changing.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

HS
Dillon G's picture

Especially knowing some very mediocre players are in.

#walkaway

HS
allinosu's picture

Maybe with this expansion the NFL will let Pete Rose in there.

HS
Scarlet_Lutefisk's picture

He'd fuck it up at the last moment, like he always does.

HS
Dillon G's picture

I think part of his plea deal was no Hall of Fame. I say no to Pete. Not that it is my call.

#walkaway

HS
GrandTheftHarley's picture

Randy Gradishar not being in the NFL Hall of Fame already is criminal.

Agreed. Same with Jim Marshall, T_B.

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I'm not very smart. --- W.W. Hayes

HS
Hockeybuck's picture

Not a Buckeye, but Ken “Rattler” Riley being 5th on the all time interception list and not being in the HOF is borderline criminal.

HS
GrandTheftHarley's picture

Not a Buckeye

Then, not germane. ;-)

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I'm not very smart. --- W.W. Hayes

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Germaine was definitely a Buckeye.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
GrandTheftHarley's picture

LOL!

"A hit! A most palpable hit!"

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I'm not very smart. --- W.W. Hayes

HS
PRO8's picture

I'm with Day on picking a starter when he wants  at the time he wants.... Day was a QB and is a coach..You want the right guy in the spot .... if you have to make a change then what does that do to the O when that happens or the QB?

OF course in this situation the starter is obvious it would seem  but that may be this way in many situations so why not keep the pressure on of making them perform to the max and see how they react ... they need to be uncomfortable to get their best ... there will be times when in the middle of a game when it won't be comfortable

HS
buckeye phi's picture

Agreed, PRO8.  I'd only add that it could send an bad message to the rest of the team to simply award a key starting role like QB to a kid who hasn't played a game in scarlet and gray yet, just started Fall Camp - and who wasn't all that spectacular in the Spring Game, considering all the hype. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm expecting big things from Fields this season.  But I think Coach Day knows exactly what he's doing, also -

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. - Will Rogers

HS
CandygramForMongo's picture

Randy Gradishar, LB 

Anchor of the Denver Broncos' "Orange Crush" defense, Gradishar helped the team reach its first Super Bowl in the 1977 season and the next season he was named the NFL's defensive player of the year. A seven-time Pro Bowl selection, Gradishar has only been a Hall finalist twice, most recently in 2008.

Randy Gradishar and Jack Tatum should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

HS
TURD_BUCKET's picture

National Championships > than Heisman finalists and Heisman trophies.

“Being average means you are as close to the bottom as you are to the top.” John Wooden

HS
Kugel's picture

To me, the point is that it is better to have a dual threat QB in college. Generally teams with Heisman finalists are in the National Championship picture.

HS
brutus0717's picture

The NFL is just bound and determined (Randy Gradishar not withstanding) to have a Hall of Pretty Good.

"We gotta go win this next game and make the State of Ohio proud!"-UFM

HS
TNT's picture

It's never been a hall of "extraordinary", "great", or even "good". It's a hall of *fame*. Plenty of lesser players on big market teams have been inducted over legends from smaller markets. It's not about how good you are, it's about how famous you are.

HS
blueblazer22's picture

Sandwiches-very disappointed that the French dip is so low on the list. Somewhat surprised that the PB&J is down there also, but with a sample size of 1200 there are bound to be misses. 

Lacuna-wonder which of those possible definitions is the one that fits for the band Lacuna Coil?

Chris Tapley-genius. We need to find out more about this patriot. 

Heisman-since it has become a quarterback award, is it really shocking that the guys who handle the ball the most both throwing and running would be the guys up for and winning the trophy? 

"They say, "these geeks come a dime a dozen.  I'm lookin' for the guy who's supplyin' the dimes." -Classy Freddie Blassie

HS
PhillyNut's picture

Cannot argue much with the list but apparently not enough guys were surveyed. How is cheesesteak not on the list, especially if egg salad made it?

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Not when 57% of the people polled said it shouldn't be considered a sandwich.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
J-Buck's picture

I guess it depends who you are.....

I'm a peacock Captain, you gotta let me fly!!

HS
SilverHaven's picture

Lacuna. 
Is that gap like Dr Seuss with the fafuna baboona in the laguna,
or more like you're going to ruin a hakuna Matata?
 

Ua Mau ke Ea o ka 'Aina I ka Pono. The life of the land is preserved in righteousness. (Hawai'i state motto) Aloha nui kakou.

HS
Sunny Buck's picture

Lacuna; a blank space or missing part. Can't wait for comments on this one.

I'm not trying to win a popularity contest. I'm trying to win football games-- Woody Hayes

HS
JTstan16's picture

I will never get over not repeating in ‘15. We were the best in america by a mile (when we didn’t jackoff). Also, JT deserved a natty as the starter even though we basically won in ‘14 because of him. 

HS
huffdaddy's picture

Any kid committing to Michigan because Gattis is going to change everything is seriously lacking critical thinking. There are two possibilities: 1) It doesn't work that well. 2) It works that well and Gattis is gone by 2021. There is no scenario in which Gattis is an offensive mastermind and sticks around.

"I don't think you necessarily have to get a trophy to be a winner." - Nick Saban 1/2/15.

HS
RunEddieRun1983's picture

I full agree, I think the team is better off with the starter being known and ready sooner than later 

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

HS
southalabamabuckeye's picture

Dual threat QBs are very beneficial at the college level. It is crushing for the defense to do everything right and then the QB takes off for 12 yards and a first down. If the dual threat QB is also a legitimate passer, he will be elite. It's up to defenses to find a way to defend them effectively now.

HS
NorthBerg's picture

Unless I missed it over the weekend, does today's Skully feature the obligatory Liam pix within a pix?

Too much time spent at the North Heidelberg rather than the classroom. SSD 68-72

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

When you go straight to the comments without reading the article. Or even look at the header photo.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
lamplighter's picture

where the hell is the bacon cheeseburger - the most perfect sandwich ever, because of beef, bacon and cheese.

That list is faulty

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

HS
3ydncloudofdust's picture

Not to mention the fried peanut butter, banana...[in my best Elvis voice], Thank you; Thank very much!

"Three things can happen when you pass the ball, and two of them are bad." - Woody

 

HS
Gratefulbuck's picture

It’s right next to hotdog 

HS
BuckeyeDropout's picture

I came up with seven Heisman finalists over that 12 year span. Could be eight if they’re including Cam who was the composite #2 dual threat, but could’ve been #1 elsewhere.

Tebow and Watson were both 2x finalists. Still a pretty crazy statistic. 

What we have currently available is what we have available.

HS
AZ Buckeye13's picture

“It would be beneficial to make it a formality”

Technically speaking, it is a formality. Everyone knows that Fields will be the starter so naming him as such will just be a formality.

HS
buckeyedude's picture

I'm still waiting to hear Bauserman's take on the QB controversy. 

"If you're not changing, you're falling behind."

HS
Meek's picture

Go ring his doorbell and ask him.

- OSU ISE -+-  Premium Banter -+- OH48 80k -

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Those sandwich rankings are clearly preseason rankings.

I had to run away high, so I wouldn't come home low...

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

It would appear that the list of choices was somewhat limited to begin with. How do you offer people egg salad to rank, but not the classic bacon, egg and cheese? Why ask about cucumber and cream cheese, but not a panini?

Also of note, it's worth reading the entire document, especially pages 35 and 36. It's conclusive: 57% of those surveyed stated that hotdogs and tacos should NOT be considered "sandwiches." Case closed.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Hovenaut's picture

I also noticed hot dogs on the outside looking in, a travesty.

I had to run away high, so I wouldn't come home low...

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

I beg to differ. As Grandma used to say, "Lips and assholes do not a sandwich make."  She had a way with words.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Hovenaut's picture

I guess I went too heavy on the spicy mustard, and didn't slather enough sarcasm on my above comment...

I had to run away high, so I wouldn't come home low...

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

My bad.  I'll have mine with ketchup, mustard, onions and kraut, please.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
CandygramForMongo's picture

Navy, I guess your grandmother never had the fried bologna sandwich from the G&R Tavern in Waldo...

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Probably not. She was from Nebraska. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Kevin getting all scientific today inthe links.  

The story about the Marquise du Chatelet is fantastic. Her commentary on Newton truly was a labor of love. Forwarded that to our daughter as she embarks on her college experience this fall.

Funny that scientists are surprised they nearly missed a 300 meter asteroid flying by 400,000 miles from Earth. Like trying to find a grain of sand at the beach. I'm surprised any of them actually saw it.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
TMac's picture

The Tribe, The Browns and the Fans are all having fun in Cleveland right now, hope they all kep rolling!

ONE Not Done!

HS
droessl's picture

#1 Dual Threat QBs from 2006-17 (per 247 composite):

2006: Tebow (Heisman AND a finalist)

2007: Tyrod Taylor (LOL)

2008: Terrelle Pryor (try not to think about what might have been)

2009: Russell Shepard (nope, nothing here)

2010: Blake Bell (results not found)

2011: Jeff Driskel (I believe he watched a Heisman ceremony on TV, but that doesn't count)

2012: Jameis Winston (Heisman and crab legs)

2013: Asiantii Woolard (who?)

2014: Deshaun Watson (He was a decent player, I heard)

2015: Kyler Murray (Yep, another Heisman)

2016: Jarrett Guarantano (dodged that one)

2017: Tua Tagovailoa (decent player)

Heisman wins: 3 (Tebow, Murray, Winston)

Heisman finalists: 4 (Tua, Watson (x2), Tebow)

Consensus All-Americans: 4 (Tua, Watson, Winston, Tebow)

So yeah, that research, at least using 247's data is wrong as hell. 

HS
Buckeye Chuck's picture

Winston was considered dual threat? Sounds like some sterling analysis went into that one.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

As a HS senior, Winston threw for 2424 yds and rushed for 1063 yds. As a junior he threw for 2334 and rushed for 870.
What else would you call that?

https://247sports.com/Player/Jameis-Winston-7406/high-school-4457/

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Buckeye Chuck's picture

That surprises me, because he hasn't been any sort of running threat since then, and the Seminoles certainly never schemed around him being a runner or even being mobile.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

NFL defenses >> NCAA defenses >>>>>> HS defenses

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
AZ Buckeye13's picture

Can't be that great of a threat to run. He couldn't escape that grocery clerk. (of course, to his credit, he was loaded down with crab legs). 

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

This comment is not receiving enough up votes.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Lighteyes's picture

I don't think it's wrong as much as it's very badly worded. The wording certainly implies that if you're #1 overall, you have almost a 50% chance of being an All-American (5/11!) and like a 90% chance of being a Heisman finalist (9/11!)...but the trick is that a bunch of players count multiple times.

  • Heisman wins: 3. This is pretty straightforward:
  • Heisman finalists: They seem to also be counting when you 'win' as a finalist, in addition to counting people several times, so Tim Tebow actually counts three separate times (win in 2007, finalist in 2008 and 2009), Murray counts once (winning in 2018), etc.
  • All-Americans: Again, Tebow actually counts twice here, for both his 2007 and 2008 seasons.

It's also worth noting that they cherry-picked a starting date here. Why did they pick 11 years instead of a round number like "last 10 years"? Because if you do "last 10 years", you miss Tim Tebow. And why didn't they just increase it to last 15 or last 20 years? Because then you pick up a bunch of dual-threat guys who didn't do squat.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

They seem to also be counting when you 'win' as a finalist

Well, aren't you?  If you look at each category separately, then it's a factual statement. 

As far as Tebow and others being counted multiple times, the methodology makes sense. Each season is different, and he beat out Pro Style QBs who had an equal shot at those accolades. We refer to players as "three time all american" or "two time Heisman winner" all the time.

I think his argument would've been more powerful if he'd avoided the whole "#1 dual threat QB" moniker and left it at DT vs PS. You've got Manziel, Jackson, Mariotta, and Mayfield as winners/finalists. Throw in Miller as a finalist/vote receiver.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
AZ Buckeye13's picture

"We refer to players as "three time all american or and one player as two time Heisman winner" all the time.

FIFY Navy

HS
Lighteyes's picture

The problem is that method of counting is completely different from what the statement implies.

If you say "of the QBs from 2006 to 2017, 9 Heisman finalists", sounds like getting the #1 dual-threat guy is a really high chance of success - like a really high chance of success (9 out of 11 were Heisman finalists? really?). But in fact, half of the #1 dual-threat QBs from 2006 to 2017 were complete busts (Taylor, Shepard, Bell, Driskel, Woolard, Guarantano).

The more accurate way to do this math would be to break it down like Droessl did into successes (5), busts (6), and one enigma (Pryor).

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

I think you’ve id’d the quintessential  problem with Twitter. Lack of context and depth. The article is a better read. And if the Twitter poster hadn’t been so lazy, he would’ve linked to the article. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Kevin Harrish's picture

To be fair, if they did 10 years you also lose the one pro style quarterback that was actually an All-American. So it’s tough to say it was too cherry picked, even though I agree, 11 years does seem weird.

I also don’t think there’s anything methodologically wrong with limiting it to the past decade since football has changed drastically since 2005. Obviously pro style quarterbacks would be more successful when most teams are still running out of the I formation. It wouldn’t make sense to include guys from a time when everyone was running a drastically different style of offense. Maybe even more than that, I think recruiting rankings probably got better cause it’s not like most of the pro style guys did anything either lol.

NavyBuckeye91's picture

Shit, if they did five decades of QBs you’d probably get a lot more “Dual Threat” QBs who broke out than Pro Style QBs, especially if you drop the whole #1 in class garbage. Staubach, Horvath, Crouch, Smith, Newton, Ward, Jackson, Mariota, Brown and a bunch of other guys were “dual threat” guys in college. We just didn’t have recruiting service rankings that broke them out that way. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

If you actually read the article that the Tweet references, he used 247's data and quoted it. I believe he's using "finalist" loosely, as in if you received votes not just got invited to New York, you're a finalist. And, if you won it, you were also a finalist; you left off Winston and Tebow's wins as well as Tebow being a finalist twice after winning.

https://www.toledoblade.com/ohio-state/2019/08/04/ohio-state-quarterback...

Here's the correct list by those standards, and it matches the article and the Tweet.

Tebow: 3x finalist,  winner, 2x AA
Winston: 2x finalist, winner, AA
Watson: 2x finalist, AA
Murray: finalist, winner
Tagoviloa: finalist, AA

 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
droessl's picture

Counting Tebow 3x as a Heisman finalist is accurate, but not making a good faith argument. Saying "Of the 12, there have been five All-Americans, three Heisman Trophy winners, and nine Heisman finalists" as the article does implies that nine of the 12 players were Heisman finalists when only five were. 

HS
TNT's picture

Your flawed interpretation of the data does not change the facts. The tweet is accurate. You're nearly as likely to have a 2x finalist as you are to miss out completely, which is extremely valid and good news for us

HS
droessl's picture

Riiiiight. 4/12 were 2x finalists. 8/12 weren't. Those aren't nearly as likely. I'm excited for Fields, but if we're talking likelihoods based on this article, we're *MORE* likely to get Jeff Driskel than Tua. 

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

I’ve got no issue with your logic. I think the Tweet is the problem. No depth and no context. The article explains it much better. He basically says Fields has a much better chance of being a Heisman finalist or AA than the #1 PS QB in his class. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
TNT's picture

"No depth and no context" describes 99% of sports coverage on ESPN, FOX, and certainly Twitter. They all get clicks and likes by torturing stats. I'm not sure why anyone is upset about this one, as this was far less convoluted than most of what we see from sports media in the offseason.

HS
TNT's picture

You're struggling with facts again. I said 2x is almost as likely as 0. You provided stats for 2x vs not. You erroneously counted people who were finalists once in an effort to seem correct. Straw man.

HS
droessl's picture

I'm really not. Here are the 2x finalists: Tebow, Winston, Watson. That's three (3), right? 

Here are guys who were a finalist (or won) once: Murray, Tua. 

Here are the ones who never were finalists: Taylor, Pryor, Shepard, Bell, Driskel, Woolard, Guarantano. That's seven (7) by my count. 

How is 3/12 almost as likely at 7/12? 

HS
TNT's picture

EDITED. My point was addressed in subsequent comments.

HS
High Street Street Fighter's picture

I think 11W needs to try to track down that Chris Tarpley guy who "applied" for the OSU job, and get his thoughts on his email being made public. I did a quick google search on the name, and no real obvious person emerged...so not even sure if it's the guys real name, but it would be a great story if you could find him.

HS
Keyser Soze's picture

Chris Tarpley that has a great ring to it. I believe it is going to be the name I give to someone from now on if I don't want to use my real name. I would hope someone scoops it up for their screen name on 11W

That's how winners play. We convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.

HS
0H-10's picture

Grilled Cheddar & Bacon.

o||||||o

HS
lamplighter's picture

this is really, really good, but

This is a forum post from a site member. It does not represent the views of Lamplighter LLC unless otherwise noted.

peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
 

HS
ScarletGray43157's picture

Full disclosure: there's no way "9 Heisman finalists" is true, because that would mean that only two of the dual threat quarterbacks during that span weren't Heisman finalists, and that's not at all the case.

For example:

Duane Haskins was a Heisman Finalist.

Duane Haskins was not a dual threat QB. 

In old Ohio there's a team that's known throughout the land...

HS
buckeye phi's picture

As the position evolves, I think the line between Pro-style and Dual-threat is beginning to blur a little - at least, at the elite level.  It wasn't that long ago that Dual-threat was considered almost code for "great athlete - but not much of a passer". 

These days, I believe being a pretty darn good passer comes first either way - particularly, for the caliber of teams that have a realistic shot at the playoff.  It's just too easy for elite defenses to shut down one dimensional offenses -

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. - Will Rogers

HS
JTFor President2016's picture

Completely agree. I think the reason is due to the spread offense transitioning into middle-school now. At first, only certain colleges were doing it. Kids weren't being exposed to that offense until later in their careers. Now everyone is running spread attacks. What does this mean? Nowadays, middle school teams are putting their most athletic player at the QB position and teaching him to throw from a young age. That is why you see so many more guys like Kyler Murray, and heck even a Trevor Lawrence, who can throw and run. 

Elliott dots the eye, on this national championship win. 

HS
buckeyepastor's picture

I think the offense knows who to expect under center, and that’s enough.  As Day wasn’t born yesterday, I trust his decision.  If he weren’t a long time QB coach, I might have less confidence, but he knows the QB room and psyche.  

I think it’s a little to do with Fields and Hoak both being new to program. We need to have a starter and backup that are both very comfortable and familiar with the “1”s and that best happens with both getting significant time with them right now.  I think of Baldwin or Martell who had both already been around the program a while were the likely backup, Fields would be named starter.  It’s about getting Hoak the opportunity he needs to be ready when called on. 

"Woody would have wanted it that way" 

HS
Buck-n-A's picture

But SPEED IN SPACE guys!  Who knew that the key to a good offense is getting really fast guys away from defenders and out in the open?  

Bears...Buckeyes... Battlestar Galactica.

HS
IslandBumBuckeye's picture

“I think we have potential to be the No. 1 offense in the nation.”

Any time you use the word 'potential' it gives you license to say pretty much anything. 

"I suppose there's potential for monkeys to fly out of my ass."

"It's always scotch-thirty on my island."

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

I suppose there's potential for monkeys to fly out of my ass.

If your user name was JungleBumBuckeye, I'd say it was likely to happen. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS