Utilizing the Young Guns

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stxbuck's picture

If the returnees are being productive on the field, it will take longer for new guys to work their way into the rotation. If a returning starter at WR is producing up to expectations, the staff isn’t going to give his minutes to a frosh just because the frosh looks good in practice. Circumstances-ie-the need for better production from the position will dictate how quickly young guys get the chance for major minutes. I imagine Garrett Wilson will see the field against FAU. How much-that remains to be seen.

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TSwerve's picture

And while I see your point, the image of Olave catching that TD pass against Scum is buried into my brain, how long would it have taken Dobbins to be perceived as the better back had Webber not been sidelined. This day in age I just feel like the great teams have star Frosh making big plays IE the Trevor Lawrence’s the Jerry Juedys , they are only gonna be here 3 years. Develop those with the talent that OSU has recruited immediately. 

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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Buckeye06's picture

So you would have had Olave playing in front of whom? Terry or Johnnie? Or Parris?

We’ve had freshmen show out. Both bosa kids were sensational freshmen.  Jordan started at guard. You are just picking and choosing your options

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TSwerve's picture

I'd have Olave stealing reps from Victor and Mack and Johnnie, not saying these guys need to start but get them in the game

EDIT: assuming he could play X and Z

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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Steel City Buckeye's picture

The issue I think is that older guys practice better and thereby "earn" their snaps. It takes time time to learn the playbook and practice/play at full speed. That however doesn't mean that these supremely talented guys can't make an impact when they get a shot. I will be disappointed if Harrison and Wilson don't get a chance to shine.

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buckslan's picture

The best players play, that's how it's always been. Clemson wasn't really loaded at outside receiver prior to last season, same with Bama. That's why those freshman saw the field. OSU is having back to back seasons of 3 senior receivers. It's hard to come in during your first year and supplant those guys.

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TSwerve's picture

Alabama probably had the best receiving core In All of CFB last year, so your telling me there wasn’t an upper classmen that earned time outside Juedy?

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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GunnerBuck's picture

Juedy, Ruggs, D. Smith all class of 2017. Waddle, class of 2018. The only player in Alabamas top 5 receivers earlier than 2017 was Irv Smith who was the class of 16.

IE 3 of the 5 were SO's, 1 was a FR and one was a JR. 

Same can be said for Clemson. 2 of their top 5 WR's were class of 2018, 2 were 2017 and the other was Hunter Renfrow, the 15 year senior.

"Come on, you sons of b!tches! Do you want to live forever?" -- Dan Daly, WWI

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TSwerve's picture

Clemson just moved a 5 star Wide out to DB, they are waiting around to see if he'll compete with Higgins and Ross they already know. "Derion Kendrick"

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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stuckupnorth's picture

Clemson is always loaded at outside reciever.Same with Bama. The reason those young guys played is because Saban and Dabo don’t care about stupid leadership gimmicks. They play the best. That’s why they win. Look at the recievers that have come off both those squads in the last few years. 

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BuckAlum09's picture

The best players play, that's how it's always been.

I would challenge that sentiment slightly with a couple decisions over the past 4 1/2 years.

But in general, yes that's how mostly it goes and how it should always go.

"...and when we win the game, we'll buy a keg of booze. And we'll drink to old Ohio till we wobble in our shoes."

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BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

Every time a fan favorite or PURPORTED stud isn’t playing, does not mean it’s because Coaches defaulted to upper classmen.

Too bad PT isn’t determined by hype, ain’t no telling what the records would be.  Besides, with all the success and even the blowouts, I wouldn’t attribute the losses being because the “younger” guys didn’t play; unless there’s a willingness to talk QB play (which is sacred grounds around these parts).

Hail, I remember a time when there were loud chants for Mack/Victor to replace Campbell/Dixon/McLaurin.

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UrbzRenewal's picture

Hail, I remember a time when there were loud chants for Mack/Victor to replace Campbell/Dixon/McLaurin.

Huh? They play different positions. Mack/Victor were Xs, McLaurin/Dixon were Zs, Campbell was an H. 

Any fan clamoring for one over the other was severely misinformed. Mack is only now starting to learn Z in addition to X. 

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BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

I know they played different positions, didn’t say otherwise.

My point was, there was a time when folks were clamoring for Mack/Victor over the recently departed guys.  Fast forward, and even with PT, Parris/Terry/Johnnie weren’t supplanted by Mack/Victor and both are in their last season.

At the time, the narratives were a plenty, it was they couldn’t get separation, couldn’t get off the line and some of everything else’s. They were impeding the young pups progress.

There was the coaching change and the narrative (semi) switched to it was primarily Hartline effect.  Yeah he played a role, but I’m going to walk on hallowed ground, the biggest difference was that the offense got a true passing QB.

And now, BOTH the passing QB and much maligned WRs are in the league via the Draft and as an UDFA.  I’m as happy as hell for those guys!

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JTFor President2016's picture

The issue in analyzing playing time, is that we don't see practice. Who knows, maybe Olave was running some wrong routes early in the season, maybe Run DMC isn't a great practice player. or maybe Tuf Borland practices better than other LBs. Additionally, it's tough in CFB, when you only get to play a few easy games (if you're lucky) before you have to be at your best. CFB coaches don't get the luxury of seeing guys play 4 preseason games to see how young guys play in action. Also, losing one game can ruin a season. I'd imagine it's tough for coaches to trust throwing a freshmen into a big game, with only seeing him play 1 or 2 times in front of 100K. As in the case of Olave, it was probably a product of coaches gaining more and more trust, as he was able to play late in some blowouts. 

Yes, the best players should be on the field. But I can understand if a coach has reservations about playing a freshmen early in the season, when every game means so much in CFB.

Elliott dots the eye, on this national championship win. 

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extemporary08's picture

Who can honestly tell themselves that J.T. Barrett was better than Haskins 2 years ago? How long did it take for Von Bell to start at Safety? The list goes on... Like it or not, Meyer really had loyalty to a fault (cough Zach Smith cough**) and to a detriment of the team at times IMO. One thing I remember reading is that in the Big 10 (I believe that) once a scholarship is given it cannot be taken away arbitrarily, and if I understand correctly the SEC does not have that rule, and that could be a big reason.

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Buckeye06's picture

Well to your first question, Haskins will tell you straight up he wasn’t ready and has said so more than once

The bell one makes me laugh.  That was really Meyers first recruiting class and Bell was one of his stars.  Why would Meyer have loyalty to one of Tressel’s guys over a kid he personally led the recruitment for 

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BrewstersMillions's picture

I can. Dwayne can too. JT Barret broke Drew Brees' records for gods sake. Can we let that body rest in peace?

Proudly dispensing unbridled arrogance since 1983.

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stuckupnorth's picture

08 you wasting your breath. Haskins was ready even if he said he wasn’t. He is being political and not throwing his coach under the bus. What do people expect him to say yeah I’m better than JT. Yeah I don’t know why I ain’t playing. The whole country saw JT limitations and Dabo laughed about it. Then went and blanked OSU.Remember when dealing with JT. It was ESPN, SEC, Refs, Zone Six, Zack Smith, Tim Beck, Officiating, O-Line, lack of running game, Nick Saban, Cheerleader, or the popcorn Vendors fault. It is not Meyer or JT. Remember records(against vastly poor competition). We can go into how he done against the big boys. But the fan boys will point to records and leadership. 

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Buckeye06's picture

I mean, was Barrett not fing amazing in 2014 when he had proper coaching? 

He was 16/26 with 3 TDs passing and another 80 yards rushing with 2 more TDs against a top 3 Michigan State defense AT Michigan State.  He broke records with Herman as his OC.  2015/2016 we all agree (except maybe you it seems) was a cluster with the offensive brain trust we had and Zach Smith has apparently doubled down on that with his podcast saying Ed W couldn't call a play to save his life.

I will never excuse a guy for doing his absolute best for the university.  He was a great leader for that team through what sounds like a shitshow in all aspects.  Clemson was better than us in 2016, but that game got out of hand quick with missing FGs and fumbles etc.  Shouldn't have gotten that bad that quickly

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stuckupnorth's picture

I’ve never said JT hasn’t had his moments. Most D1 QB have good games as well. JT started a lot of games eventually he gonna have a good one. PSU was another example he played well. However he had a proven track record of not performing in big games. He didn’t do anything against Wisconsin usc or Michigan his senior year. Clemson nothing. The list goes on. Lagos or whatever his name was from Indiana torched an NFL all pro secondary. Doesn’t mean he performed well against great competition. He had a good game. JT was the same. He beat up inferior opponents and struggled mightily against good squads. Even in the wins he didn’t do much. Dude played his guts out. When you look at how he fared against good competition his stats are underwhelming. I would challenge you to look up what he did in bowl games. Then compare what he did to common opponents. Example look at his numbers against USC. Then look at what every other school did against the same usc defense. I have done it and he cares very poorly. The same can be said about Oklahoma the second time and Michigan, Wisconsin, MSU. The numbers don’t always tell the whole story. However when you compare it to common opponents you will see that he wasn’t very good. I know people want to like him and will always point to a couple games but the evidence of his whole career dictates that he wasn’t very good. In spite of records he was just an average QB in Meyers system as well. He just played in a lot of games.When looking at the QBs Meyer coached. Given the same amount of games played as JT played the other QBs would have smashed records as well. 

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BuckAlum09's picture

Why do people always seem mistake honesty and justified comparisons with "you hate the kid! How dare you?!"

I'd let JT marry my daughter (if I had one) and take my mom to church (if she went). He'll forever be one of my favorite players. He wasn't just the team captain, he was OUR captain... But he wasn't the best quarterback in the position room with Haskins waiting in the winds. JT did get exposed as a sub-par and inconsistent passer of the football. His skill set handicapped our offense.

That doesn't mean I hate him and have forgotten all the great things he did for us. 

"...and when we win the game, we'll buy a keg of booze. And we'll drink to old Ohio till we wobble in our shoes."

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CedarBuck92's picture

I think there are two issues. 1. People on both sides of the argument are unable to separate JT the leader and person from JT the QB. 2. The negative side can at times come across as "Idgaf about any records or any leadership or anything. Give me a QB with zero leadership skills and a Howlitzer for an arm over JT" People tend to only care about the stats that support their side. So we talk about how amazing DH's arm was but don't talk about how our run game suffered with his lack of running threat etc. 

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stxbuck's picture

Truth, that some on here still can’t process.

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Steel City Buckeye's picture

Haskins got pulled in garbage time the first time he played in 2017 because he couldn't get the team lined up, it was a shit show.

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BuckAlum09's picture

Did you catch that Michigan game in 2017?

"...and when we win the game, we'll buy a keg of booze. And we'll drink to old Ohio till we wobble in our shoes."

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Steel City Buckeye's picture

Yes, he clearly learned and progressed through out the season. I am a huge Haskins fan but just because he was good at the end of the year Doesn't mean he was ready to start at the begining as his play dictated. What's your point?

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BuckAlum09's picture

Well you mentioned one game where Haskins "got benched" without speaking at all objectively to his body of work that season (70% completion, 4TDs, 1int, 174 QBR)... or at least mention one other game where he was thrown in to perhaps the biggest test that exists at OSU for a QB. And what he did when he got in. As a RS Freshman... Down by a TD late... At UM.

I believe you made a point about him getting benched, which I assume you were using to say he wasn't ready? I made a point to the contrary. What he did at Michigan was waiting in the stables all season. And I would argue that the JT offense was very predictable and handicapped our offense versus Oklahoma, Iowa, and UM (you remember that first half and the 3rd quarter I assume). Of course the JT comeback vs Penn State will be one of the greatest things cemented in my Buckeye heart. JT had finally shown us what we had been waiting so long to see. Jt the QUARTERBACK... And then Iowa happened.

Would Haskins have hung 60 on Wisconsin, instead of the 27-21 win in Indy (46% passing, 3 INTs, only 211 yards)? Who knows...

"But JT was injured in Indy... You can't count that..."

I was hoping you would say that... Which some would say is the entire point of this whole debate. Were the best players on the field for that entire season? Of course any answer to this is all opinion based off armchair observation. I have no clue what actual discussions happened behind closed doors, or if anyone was advocating for Haskins in Urban's ear... Knowing that Urban would never sit JT so long as he had a heart beat.

"...and when we win the game, we'll buy a keg of booze. And we'll drink to old Ohio till we wobble in our shoes."

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allinosu's picture

Let's not forget that Olave drew UMs weakest (slowest) DB. He was not a focal point for help like our other WRs. That DB was picked on who ever he was covering. Olave's real opportunity came when Mack was injured and he did very well. There is a lot of attention given to 5* with the feeling they should take over as soon as they step on campus even with a black stripe still on their helmet. That's where I see most of this thinking. We will soon see how different (if any) Day is from Urban on playing freshman and how long do starters stay in the game when it's out of reach.

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TSwerve's picture

Olave was a 3 star though, Crowley was a 3 star before he got the TOSU bump... these are the best kids in America, Day has recognized the talent, lets not wait to see if Maurice Hall pans out

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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stxbuck's picture

I seem to remember Campbell, Dixon, and McLaurin having big games against scUM last year too. You know, the seniors who likely looked as good or better than Olave in practice.......

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TSwerve's picture

They supposed to man ? They are Seniors ? Your missing my point entirely! We can get similar production out of the Freshmen with a higher ceiling! Tell me what those 3 guys did against meat chicken as Freshmen? Don’t worry all wait

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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stxbuck's picture

Similar production from freshmen? If you are going to base all your assumptions off of one game, at the end of the year, from one player. This isn’t x-box, plug n’ dominate doesn’t happen for 99.8% of all CFC players.

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TSwerve's picture

Not everyone, a select few. Everyone who follows OSU heard about Olave in pre season camps last year True or False? Everyone heard about Dobbins the year before that . What’s the difference? Mike Weber was hurt so we got to see him early and often.  We already know that Garret Wilson and Marcus Crowley are studs, and I will be the first to eat crow if I’m wrong. 

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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stxbuck's picture

Olave is a nice player. He isn't on the same level-at least coming out of HS, as Garrett Wilson or Julian Fleming.

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Buckeye06's picture

What’s the difference? Seriously? The top 6 WRs returned last year and when dobbins came in it was only really he and Weber and Weber’s ankle blew out.

wilson is going to be in the rotation this year so I don’t know why you’re preemptively acting like he isn’t getting a fair shit.  Crowley needs to add weight but I think he can be productive in time

you realize freshmen make more mistakes too right? One blown assignment can cost you a game 

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TSwerve's picture

my point is we underutilized Olave last year, who else did we do that to? That situation is different like you say, bc while I believe he will be better then all those guys listed, those guys played well for TOSU in 2018 see record books for Haskins. The Point I'm making is not that if Garret Wilson is showing to be just as good as Victor or Mack then he should start.

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

Those guys didn’t do a damn thing against Michigan as Freshman, because they were redshirted.  And as RS-Fr, they sat behind the vaunted Thomas, Marshall, Smith, Miller H-back experiment.

Well, those guys are gone and getting NFL paid and now the Olaves and Wilsons will have plenty PT for the taking.  We’ll see how they perform when they’re having to play entire games and Seasons and are focal point of the Defenses.

A lot of b-ball players look like Jordan with no defense, what do they look like with attention.  It’s that differentiation that makes the Jordan and Brady’s who they are.

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TSwerve's picture

While I love all those players, Braxton is my favorite of all time, Thomas is the only one making a name in the league. 

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

Thomas may be the only one making a name, but Samuel is still getting paid.  Ironically, Braxton has some work to do if he wants to stay in the league.

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allinosu's picture

He turned out to be a diamond in the ruff for sure.

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Steel City Buckeye's picture

In my opinion a 5 star should be able at least physically come out and play immediately for most teams but that bar is a bit higher at OSU and the other top 5 teams (who ever you want to include). Playing as fast as veterans within a college system takes time to learn those keys and act instinctively.

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RunEddieRun1983's picture

I think the biggest problem is, it takes a while to know what you have even when it's right in front of you.

If a freshman is going out and killing it in practice, that's awesome, but does that give the coaches all the confidence in the world they can come out on a Saturday and do it in front of 100k+? That's the question.

That's why garbage time is so valuable. Hopefully the coaching staff gives the Freshmen a fighting chance in camp, and then gives them those so valuable snaps in GT. I think the new RS rule will be a huge boost in that department. 

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

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Afonzai's picture

I think the new RS rule will be a huge boost in that department. 

You sir hit the nail on the head. The new RS rule allows coaches an opportunity to evaluate a Freshman on the playing field without losing a year of eligibility if they do not show out as they we (fans) expect.  

Thumbs up

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Olave wasnt starting over NFL draft pics and 5th year seniors Campbell, McLaurin, Hill, and Dixon. It took Austin Mack's injury for Olave to even seen the field. Dont think it was a case of Olave being snubbed at all.

Zach Harrison isnt ready yet. Might not be this year. He's just too raw.

I think the reason guys like Brendan White didnt play as much to start the season last year had more to do with the crap going on within the defensive staff last year. Urban just didnt care or want to fix it.

We dont have Trevor Lawrence. Dont be one of those OSU fans who wishes we had Clemson or bamas players. We dont. Get over it.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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TSwerve's picture

We don't have Clemson or Bama Players? Get Over it? Pretty sure our Team Talent composite on 247 last season was listed as number 1 in the country.  We do have Clemson and Bama players, in fact I will go as far as to say we have better players then Clemson as they are just now getting the same type of talent as us and Bama. That's the problem, the 4 and 5 stars that were studs didn't wait to play at Clemson, Dexter Lawrence started day 1, even though they had other older guys who could have filled that role. Bro I'm an OSU fan that can only follow recruiting to bide time till game day in the offseason. When you see a guy like Crowley or Wilson be the best player on the Field against elite competition in High school there has to be a sense of urgency.

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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Buckeye06's picture

 When you see a guy like Crowley or Wilson be the best player on the Field against elite competition in High school there has to be a sense of urgency.

This is a hilariously bad take.  Teague and Dobbins dominated elite competition in high school, as did Victor, Hill, Mack and every single other player on the OSU roster.  You don't end up at OSU unless you dominate in high school against good players 

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TSwerve's picture

I’m not talking about being a great High school player ... I’m talking Elite HOF potential ... go look at the list of Gatorade Florida Players of the year then come back and talk to me about Ben Victor and Austin Mack... Crowley was THE BEST player on the field against THE BEST players in the country. Go look at Trinity’s schedule last year before you comment. We watched Garret Wilson making Odell catches in the All American Game, I’m not talking about a high 4 star I’m talking about the next Chris Carter and the next Eddie George 

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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Buckeye06's picture

You keep arguing about Wilson as if it is July 2020 and he didn’t get any snaps.  He’s getting snaps in the fall as long as he’s healthy 

I’m a huge Crowley fan and have been for a long time you can check my posts on him.  He didn’t play in the top HS division in Florida.  His school had less than 800 kids vs the big time Florida schools who have 4000+.  So stop talking about things you don’t know.  STA in FLL would have killed Crowley’s team.

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TSwerve's picture

The title of the Thread is Utilizing the young guns, and I asked if they will so that's what I'm arguing. The hype that I hear surrounding Crowley is he was the best player in Florida and every game they played he was the best player on the Field. I know Jacksonville area isn't South Florida but its still has a handful of schools ranked in the Florida top 25, so If everyone is saying he's the truth then I'm of the opinion we see him play. Stop talking about what I don't know? I made the Thread and you are commenting so if you don't like my opinion argue against it or don't post man, I don't know what to tell you

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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UrbzRenewal's picture
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milhouse4588's picture

Urban did have a problem becoming too loyal to certain players. We will never know beyond speculation where that came into play or not unless he admits it himself where he chose the incumbent instead of someone more talented.

However, Ross from Clemson, JJ from Bama...those guys are legit studs and we haven't had someone come in as polished as them as a freshman except for possibly Wilson this year. And he'll play.

Fact is our studs that start as freshmen and play well just haven't been at the flashy positions like WR/QB.

To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

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MaineStrength's picture

As a former D1 college strength coach I've had this conversation with coaches.  The coaches play the best players.  This is true.  However, how they evaluate the best players is not based on how fans often view talent.  The coach's job is to win, not necessarily have flashy plays.  If a guy is just as likely to make a mistake as a big play he won't play if there's a more reliable option.

Most of the time what they see is from practice with the younger guys since they often lack game experience.  Often times as fans however, we look at recruiting rankings and think the most talented ones are ones with the lofty rankings.  Usually those are the guys with ideal height, weight, and/or 40 times, but that doesn't mean they are the best players.  Sure, if they could read, diagnose, and react to plays in live time with ideal speed they'd be able to apply their athleticism to the game, but that's not always the case. 

The other problem with younger guys is although some may have higher ceilings they also may make critical mistakes where a fumble, interception, or blown coverage could cost the game.  And, there are some guys who are great practice players, but not as good in the game.  A practice situation is more predictable than a game where the opponent is trying to fool you.  There are also guys who tend to get bored with practice, but come alive under the bright lights of the game.  From a psychological perspective these tend to be the more talented kids whereas the grinders don't mind proving it in practice because that's how they made a name for themselves.  Think of Iverson's "we talking bout practice".  Iverson didn't care about practice because he didn't need to.  He was talented enough not to have to worry about it and probably found it boring.  But, you put him in a competition and his competitive spirit and talent come alive.

So, while the coaches play the best players they have to balance ability with decision making and understanding the scheme.  They can't sacrifice mistakes for big play ability because you never know which will happen.  Until a guy is proven to be reliable and understands the scheme it's hard to get them significant, meaningful snaps.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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TSwerve's picture

Great input, In your opinion is there any income Freshmen that you might see fitting the early and often mold? Also are there any that you see in previous years that you feel should probably have seen the field more? Obviously its mostly speculation because we don't see what the coaches see, but just as an opinion I'd be curious to hear what you think?

“It does not matter the size of the man, rather the amount of effort the man is willing to put forth” - Woody

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MaineStrength's picture

I'm a rival fan, so I'm more familiar with their roster than OSU's, but a guy like Chris Olave may be a decent comparison.  Olave was an undervalued recruit because he was a bit undersized (170 lbs), didn't have junior film, and didn't have elite speed (4.7 40) or explosiveness.  But, he's proven quickly he is an excellent football player.  I haven't watched enough film of him but I'd guess he has great motor control, is really good at anticipating what other people on the field will do, and has very quick processing time.  To find your underachievers look at guys that were high recruits but have yet to contribute by their 3rd years, assuming they've been healthy.  A guy like Jason Cornell or Baron Browning comes to mind.  It may be still too early on Browning, but Cornell had elite size as a HS recruit, but has not developed into a good college player yet.

Strength equipment is expensive & guarantees you nothing. A strong will is free & will give you everything you need.

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CedarBuck92's picture

If the young guns are better than the old guard then let them play. But as long as the old guard is better they should play. They have earned that. Loyalty to a fault is a problem but loyalty is not. 

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

I think they will play only when they know the playbook, show out in practice, and are able to do everything the coaches want them to do. For instance, If a receiver can't master his blocking assignments, I doubt he will see a lot of playing time.

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BUCKAROOTIMESTWO's picture

But if he shows out in the Spring Game, doesn’t that make a player a stud.

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