Follow Up to the Other Threads on Parental Behavior

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NewPhilaFan's picture

My question to those complaining about officials: where do you think the better officials that you desire are hiding?

What we have now is the best we will ever see. It can only get worse as more and more people leave the fields and courts due to the abuse.

Let's Go Bucks

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Exactly right NPF.  People don't realize who critical the situation is becoming.  There are two effects from this shortage.  

  reduced number of opportunities for kids to play which will lead to more elitism on the field as the average kid will get shunted aside.
massive increase in costs as the next step to retaining officials is to significantly increase their fees.

Either way, its not good for the kids.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Sanitarian2's picture

I recall you being in heat regarding how terrific officials are and how you never made an incorrect call in your career, in your opinion. I don't recall you taking alot of heat regarding referee "abuse" though I suppose how you define abuse might differ from others. 

It's clear that parents and players can abuse an official and it happens far more often than it should as it's clear that officials make errors in virtually every game they work. It's clear that there are some horrible referees working out there but the answer is not physical abuse. 

If you or they cannot handle a few, "This isn't golf blue" or "Where was that one" , "He mugged him, let's call it even" then perhaps they can't handle life in general.

Sani

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

As every official in a leadership position will tell you; at the youth level, there is ZERO reason for a parent/fan to say AnYTHING to an official.  It’s not a question of if you can't handle it get out.  Which is a pretty stupid position to take with the severe shortage of officials.  It’s just wrong.  Period.  Unless you’re in a Vulcan mind meld, you didn’t see what the official saw.  And believe me, angles change everything.  

What kind of life lesson are you teaching kids by yelling at an official?  What is it you think you are accomplishing?  You have no authority over that official.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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HS
Sanitarian2's picture

As an official you may be temporarily in charge of the game but  you are not a God, you make errors and there's nothing wrong with civil discourse regarding those errors. Granted, the COACH should be the one that protects his players and he or she should ALWAYS discuss 'issues" with the official in a respectful manner. I've performed your function in softball, baseball and  soccer and more than one night I've fretted over a call or two. If you have never done so then I would contend that you are not half the official you think you are/were.

As a parent the only thing you can teach your child is that the official messed up just like your second baseman when he made the error that let two runs score and lost the game. Someday it will be your turn to mess up, it's human nature. You try to adjust to blues strike zone, if he let's you and doesn't change it inning to inning. Perhaps you teach your child that life is not fair, how to adjust to it.

Sani

HS
GulfCoastBuck's picture

25 years officiating and I can honestly tell you every rule/law of the game I’ve screwed up or interpreted wrong at one point or another. I convey to all new referees that fact. You’re going to make mistakes, learn from them and you’ll get better. I don’t care one bit which team wins or loses, ever, my only job is to interpret what I see to the best of my abilities and to the local rules of competition ensuring the safety of all those participating.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

As an official you may be temporarily in charge of the game but  you are not a God, you make errors and there's nothing wrong with civil discourse regarding those errors.

Couple of things.  There's nothing temporary about it.  From beginning until I leave the court, I am in charge absolutely.  There's no temporary about it.

I'm not GOD, but I am the sole arbiter of the game.  Not the coach.  Not the players.  Not the fans.  just me and my partners.

There's nothing wrong with civil discourse about the game and our decisions with THE COACH.  The fans have no standing in the rules or in life.  Therefore they have no right and the officials have no obligation to communicate with each other.  In fact, if you truly were an official, then you know that you were instructed NOT to interact with the fans.  

I don't know where you get off accusing me of claiming to be perfect.  I never have.  I've blown calls.  I have two eyes and I'm trying to watch ten players, six of which might be in my primary.  Your repeated claim that I did say I was perfect is disengenuous.  so please stop.  Unless its an intentional attempt to muddy the water.

Fretted over a call?  Nah.  Recognize it might have been wrong and discuss it with my partners?  Yeah.  Its how we got better.  If I had a good relationship with the coach, I might get a game tape to review my performance.  But just fret?  Never.  That's pointless.  And doesn't so anything for your ability to adjudicate a game.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Wargor's picture

As an official I was instructed that it is okay to talk to the fans.  Like everything, there is a time and a place, but it certainly isn't forbidden or discouraged for youth soccer.

HS
CALPOPPY's picture

If you or they cannot handle a few, "This isn't golf blue" or "Where was that one" , "He mugged him, let's call it even" then perhaps they can't handle life in general.

Gotta agree with TNB, here. What use is it to even make that comment at a youth sport event? You aren’t gonna change the outcome, and you have the possibility to teach the kid a sense of entitlement. Sure, the official can get over phrases like you suggest above, but they show a high level of condescension for the officials, which I personally think is pretty rude. And it’s one thing to get a little heated and say something once...but my guess is that these things get repeated and officials have an issue when the situation gets escalated past this.

Mistakes will always happen, and they don’t always seem fairly distributed between two teams. But it’s not usually the case that someone is trying to screw over a specific side. So let the coaches comment to the officials, and just hold your tongue. Accept that you are going to receive some bad calls, but so is the other team. And unless you want to pay a lot more for better officials for youth sports, then why worry about some bad calls? It’s not going to impact the skills of your kid.

Memento mori

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I'll send you a $100 if you can reproduce the post where I said I never made a mistake. 

Let's talk about abuse.  I ran into a coach at a local watering hole after I did HIS Boys varsity game.  He wasn't a friend.  He wasn't a notorious referee abuser.  Just an average coach.  I was there with an out of town friend who had come to watch me work while he was in town on business.  The coach saw me and sauntered over.  He asked me if he could talk to me for a minute.  I told him to pull up a chair.

He started asking me questions about how to "handle " us.   When he said handle, I first said to put on rubber gloves which got him to laugh and ease his nervousness.  So he asked me, how should he approach a referee if he disagreed with a call.  So we talked about that for awhile.  Somehow the conversation turned to the subject of anger and control and "magic" words.  I told him that there really is only one magic word, and its not the one you think it would be.  Everything else is tone.

Care to guess what that magic word is?  Its "YOU".  And sentence that starts with you, directed at on official isn't going to end well unless its, "You are the best referee I've ever had work one of my games."    So, I told him, think about that when you talk to an official.  That really goes for fans/parents too.  Maybe even more so.  I've not sure I've ever heard a fan start "talking"  to an official with the word you that wasn't abusive.  So there's my definition.

Here's a something fanboys never think about.  Every official, no matter how good or bad WANTS to be right.  Some are better at it than others,  But making a call is all about the angles.  Knowing how to position yourself on the court/field/pitch is what separates a great official from an average to poor one.  So, just because you, sitting 75 yards away from the play saw something, you more than likely didn't see what the official saw.  So yelling about it is absurd.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Major H's picture

I remember hearing a very long time ago about "you" being the magic word. IIRC it was a professional baseball umpire who said he didn't mind a coach saying, "That was a dumb ass call!" But if he said, "You are a dumb ass!" that's when he would eject the coach.

But what power do the youth league refs have? It seems virtually none. My granddaughter was in a 11-14 y/o youth soccer league. (Season ended at the end of the school year.) They had the same ref for every match and he was very fair in all of the games. He'd even take a second to school up a kid on the mistake he just made and why he called a penalty. Not once in the past 3 years have I heard a parent give him crap.  Universally liked by all the parents.

I'd rather be an hour early than a minute late.

HS
Sanitarian2's picture

A good official is either invisible or cherished by BOTH teams. Most fans and coaches will give an official a few close calls without too much grief, it's the clear bonehead mistakes that from any angle were clearly wrong or the last second lose the game because of a bad call that fans can't handle. Everyone that follows high school sports knows how a game is going to go based upon the officials hired to call the game. I see this in basketball and baseball more so than football, track. 

Look honey it's that short ump that calls the low strike or the tall, skinny guy that calls the outside strike. It's the football ref that's trying to earn extra cash officiating a Basket ball game, this is going to get ugly. 

As a coach I've only ever been "warned" by blue once and that was for yelling out to my pitcher, "Nice location Tim, put it there again, next one's yours" I was told to shut it up or I'd be out for encouraging my player. That ump didn't last long, ego far too large.

Sani

HS
GulfCoastBuck's picture

I’ve coached for about half the time I’ve officiated and my advice to you and all coaches is to not make your disagreements “public”. By this I mean have that discussion with the official not directed at the official where the majority of spectators hear it. There’s a vast difference in how most officials will interpret those disagreements.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

This is patently untrue.  There was many a time where we were the enemy the moment we walked onto the court 15:00 before the tip.

As a coach I've only ever been "warned" by blue once and that was for yelling out to my pitcher, "Nice location Tim, put it there again, next one's yours" I was told to shut it up or I'd be out for encouraging my player. That ump didn't last long, ego far too large.

Aren't you just full of yourself. 

it's the clear bonehead mistakes that from any angle were clearly wrong

You're full of shit on this one.  Unless you can teleport, its physically impossible for you to know that "from any angle" the call was wrong.  Here's a dirty secret (and the fact that you don't recognize this tells me all I need to know about you on this subject)

Last second calls are rarely wrong.  The referees, if even ONE of them is competent, will have their partners so well prepared and ready for the situation, that there's rarely a problem.  I've been on the floor when one of my partners choked on a last second play.  In one case that i'm thinking of, I was seriously scared for the head coach.  I thought he was going to stroke out.  but what do you want us to do?  We couldn't reverse the call.  We could only explain what happened and then move on.  The fans screaming at the poor guy who blew weren't making have a better game afterwards.  he was so flustered, he struggled through the overtime that his bad call caused.  Shit happens.  But fans yelling at him didn't give their team 2 points.  Didn't help him finish strong.  It did nothing positive.

Protip for basketball officials (and fans).  Whenever I heard fans calling for 3 seconds (of which less than 5% of fans even know the entire rule) I waited until I had a chance and made sure that the first time I called it, I called it ON their team.  They sometimes got the message.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Sanitarian2's picture

Wow, your ego is amazing and the fact that you waited to make a three second call on "their" team just to get your passive aggressive jolly is disgusting. It's also dishonest and clearly shows that you have no business officiating at any level.

Sani

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

It wasn’t dishonest.  It was a legit call.  The difference was instead of repeatedly telling a player to get out of the key like we normally would, I’d tell him once and if he didn’t listen, I call it.  

From the Get go you’ve been gunning for me.  Personally, I could care less.  But a lot of iwhat you type is bullshit, and this subject is too important to me to let that go.

Youth sports is a very important part of growing up.  The behavior of parents and fans is jeopardizing that.  I will never ever let that go.

 You don’t know me from Adam.  You continuously pick a fight with me outright lie about and twist what I say and then claim I’m some kind of asshole.  Well, I might be an asshole.  But I’m an honest one.  The bullshit you type tells me I can’t say the same about you.  By the way, my $100 offer still stands.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Sanitarian2's picture

Protip for basketball officials (and fans).  Whenever I heard fans calling for 3 seconds (of which less than 5% of fans even know the entire rule) I waited until I had a chance and made sure that the first time I called it, I called it ON their team.  They sometimes got the message

You WAIT until you had a CHANCE to call it the FIRST time on THEIR team to give the fans a MESSAGE. Sounds like a problem with your officiating to me and the very fact that you admit such on a public forum tells me how special you feel about yourself. When I worked I had the opposite problem, I tried to be as fair as possible and was willing to at least consider that I had missed a call. You're right, I don't know you personally from Adam but I know you from years of work and coaching, I know you very well.

None of that excuses fans from anything more than minor verbal grumbling though, everyone is correct about that.

Sani

HS
Wargor's picture

Protip for basketball officials (and fans).  Whenever I heard fans calling for 3 seconds (of which less than 5% of fans even know the entire rule) I waited until I had a chance and made sure that the first time I called it, I called it ON their team.  They sometimes got the message.

This sounds like retaliation, and is antithetical to the instruction I got as a ref.  Seems unfair to the players to let the fans influence how the game is called.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

For the three second call, we were instructed to NOT call the rule unless necessary.  (If you're a literalist as your anger implies, then THIS should piss you off) We were instructed tp try and get the players to "get out of the key" as much as possible and only actually enforce the rule when the players wouldn't respond to our attempts to NOT call it.  If the fans got too crazy, I'd just enforce the rule.  No different than calling a game tighter if the game was getting chippy.  Basketball officiating is as much art as it is science.  I didn't invent a violation that didn't happen.  I didn't make up a rule.  I just called the violation when I saw it.  Its called preventative officiating.  This time in an attempt to prevent the fans from getting too stupid.  Its actually a whole chapter taught in referee school.  So, don't get your panties twisted.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Wargor's picture

What anger?  There does seem to be some anger in this thread (not just you), but I didn't have any in my post.  I don't ref basketball, so I can't say how that should go for sure, but selectively making the call based on the fan reactions is not something that is encouraged in soccer reffing.  As I said, seems unfair to the players.  

As for the lack of difference between that and calling a chippy game tighter, would you let the fan reactions dictate which team you start calling more fouls on?  If I feel a game getting chippy, I work to shut that shit down quickly, but I don't let the fan reactions dictate the call of the play.  They may well need addressed separately (your story about getting the guy removed is a good one), but I can't get behind a philosophy of calling a game with an implied, "that showed 'em".

That said, I see what you are getting at and it isn't exactly a mortal sin or anything.  As I have stated elsewhere, lack of safety and laziness are the two things I can't stand, and I find the first far more troubling than the second.  Keeping control of a game environment in the method you describe is neither of those, and not something I'd consider as anything different than an ump who called strikes and balls a fraction tighter against an asshole coach; part of the human nature of the game and a good reason not to be an asshole.  Another reason, if basic human decency wasn't enough, to be respectful of refs; because they are human, and every one of them won't be 1,000% neutral in the face of assholery.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

wasn't direct at you Wargor.  I think one of the main differences (as someone else demonstrated talking about his Dad) between soccer and basketball is EVERYONE is an expert on the basketball rules and most people can't even recognize the correct offsides call in soccer.  So the fan reactions are a little more quick to escalate in basketball.  

You know what's funny.  I played and coached basketball before I became an official  I was absolutely STUNNED by what i found out I didn't know with regards to the rules of basketball.  The "over and back" rule.  The "Over HIS back" call.  How those are addressed in the rules isn't at all the way the average fan thinks.  And idiots on TV who add to that ignorance don't help.  (Looking at you Van Gundy)

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Wargor's picture

Yeah, that is a slight advantage to being a soccer ref.  Everyone thinks they know all the baseball and basketball rules, and there are actually a fair number who know quite a lot of them.  With soccer you're right, no one really knows them.  

I had both of my kids take the ref classes for soccer and it made them both better players.  

Of course, lack of knowledge never stopped idiots from being idiots, so I have no shortage of "hand-ball" calls from the sidelines for even the lightest of incidental contact in the middle of the field.  Especially in the younger games these same fans wouldn't want me stopping the game as much as they think they want. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

My very first game I ever officiated was a 6U co-ed game.  These kids weren't even strong enough to dribble the ball correctly (except for one girl who was bigger than everyone else).  So we would ignore travelling and double dribbling unless it lead directly to a basket.  Everyone except Daddy to big girl understood this.  He wanted us to call everything.  Now, remember, this was my first game EVER.  ididnt't even know HOW to handle this guy, so I just asked him to leave.  He refused.  I stopped the game until he left.  He said fine but he was going to kick my ass in the parking lot afterwards.  Some other parent took him alot more seriously than I did.  When I was leaving the rec center afterwards, he was sitting in the lobby with two of Westlake, Ohio's finest; HANDCUFFED!  They askecd me if he threatened me and I laughed and said yeah, but I didn't believe him.  They said, "Well someone did, because they called us."  And they hauled the guy off to spend the rest of the weekend in jail for inciting a riot.  (Talk about overkill)  He was banned for life from ever setting foot in the Westlake Rec Center ever again.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

A good official is either invisible or cherished by BOTH teams.

One of the greatest high school offiicials of all time used to say to his wife afterwards.  I know I had a good game because both teams hate me.  He shared that with us when i was in referee school.  God rest his soul.  he's in the OHSAA Hall of Fame and was considered one of the best.  So your statement there is bullshit too.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

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Sanitarian2's picture

Perhaps he wasn't as great as you thought, a great official is hated by very few fans. A great official is one that the fans recognize when he or she drives up and they are pleased to see him or her. A good official is one that the AD's push for, that the head coach knows is going to call a good game. A great official is the one that the fans begrudgingly admit called a good game even when their team loses.

A BAD official is the one that causes both teams to cringe when he/she walks out on the floor, where opposing fans turn to each other in the stands and talk about how we are in for it tonight. Hell, a bad official is the one where the winning teams fans laugh about how they got all the calls tonight.

It's clearly a circle that continues to amplify the problems to the point that you are correct, it's getting tough to find any officials, let alone good ones. Poor officiating leads to poor fan interactions which drives away good officials which dilutes the talent level that leads to even more official abuse by the fans..............................Or Poor fan behavior that drives away good officials if that egg make you feel better than the chicken.

At least we have those effective PA announcements before each game telling everyone how these are honored opponents that just want to play nice.

Sani

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Perhaps he wasn't as great as you thought, a great official is hated by very few fans. A great official is one that the fans recognize when he or she drives up and they are pleased to see him or her. A good official is one that the AD's push for, 

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about and apparently wouldn't recognize a good official if he walked up and bit you in the ass.  The guy I'm talking about did numerous state championship games and made the Hall of Fame before he died and was universally revered.  Oh, Ad's don't push for officials.  In fact, in one conference I used to work, if a school requested a certain official, the assignor would NEVER send that official there.  Assignors are like assholes.  Everyone needs one, but they all stink.  Assignors are our bosses.  We call the game the way THEY tell us to.  If we don't, we don't work in their conference.  As officials, we don't like going to the same school more than twice.  So most fans don't see us that often.

The coaches know us.  Every official has a scouting report.  How he calls a game.  What he'll tolerate and what he won't.  How he interacts with coaches and players.  Most good coaches go over that in their pregame meeting with their teams and coaches.  This guy hates taunting and trash talking.  That guy tends to call the charge more than the block on close plays.  this one calls it tight.  That one lets them play.  There's so much gray area in the rule book, its all within the rules of the game.  For instance, what's incidental contact?   

But, unless the assignor decided that an official was too poor to work at his level, he's not pulling him from the rotation.  And if a coach says, don't send THAT guy, he can almost be assured he'll see him at least once.   But your whole screed here just shows how little you know about high school basketball.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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HS
NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

To me this sounds like the guy was a crappy ref, but was consistently crappy and didn't show bias on making crappy calls against both teams. I would rather have a ref like Ed Hightower than a TV Teddy Valentine. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Just the opposite.  He knew if both teams were unhappy with him then he was making the tough calls and not pussying out.  The officials that were afraid to upset the fans weren't good officials.  They couldn't make the call that needed to be made.  That was his point.  So you're wrong.  

If neither team was upset with you, its not a guarantee (depending on the conference and style of play) its likely you couldn't make the tough call and had a crappy game.  Sure there were games where nothing happened.  Those were sleep-walking games.  

I guarantee you a Shaker Hts v Cleveland Hts game or a St Ed's vs St Ignatius or a Walsh Jesuit vs Hoban or a Massillon Washington vs Jackson Twp there was no way you were getting out of there without both sets of fans upset at you.  one of the worst in my experience was North Ridgeville vs Avon.  Rivals that hated each other.  The pressure to officiate those types of games was immense.  But also the types of games I lived for.  They were the most exciting to work.  It was an adreniline rush.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

Just the opposite.  He knew if both teams were unhappy with him then he was making the tough calls and not pussying out.  The officials that were afraid to upset the fans weren't good officials.  They couldn't make the call that needed to be made.  That was his point.  So you're wrong.  

Wrong for an opinion? Interesting. You say he was making the tough calls, perhaps he was making the wrong calls?? So you're wrong. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I'm telling you what he was teaching us.  I was there. You're making it up out of whole cloth to fit some personal agenda

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

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NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

I have no dog in the fight and have no personal agenda and have no doubt he was teaching you what he thought, I just have a different take on it. Have a good day!

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Takes usually require facts and personal knowledge of the subject.  Having none of those but still having a billigerent hot take is just trolling.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Sanitarian2's picture

Don't talk about his mentor that way. 

Sani

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Why are you being such a dick?  I answered him without your asinine butt-in.  He wasn't my mentor.  He was done reffing by the time I started.  He just was a guest lecturer at referee school and would speak at the State mandated association meetings to hundreds of officials.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Sanitarian2's picture

I suppose I am following your model for success. 

Sani

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

You've taken one unsolicited shot at me after another while I'm answering someone else.  Clearly, I must've stolen your teddy bear or something because your juvenile posts have shown that its past your beddy bye time.

The only success you've had is proving how little you offer this site.  Why don't you just do us all a favor and take your short bus intelligence to some other site more fitting your level of post; like MgoBlog.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Buck61's picture

as a former official i rarely complain about an official missing a call, we can all make errors in judgement at any time, i will however complain about one who is out of position and makes a call. in every sport each official has responsibilities for certain sectors of the court / field at any given time and situation. do you best to get your body in the right place at the right time to see the play unfold. being lazy and not putting in the effort is a quick way to get bad evaluations and no future assignments by observers / assigners.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Totally agree.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

But what power do the youth league refs have?

stopping the game.

Another story...sorry if they bore everyone.  I'll stop if you want me to.

I'm doing a Christmas CYO tournament championship game.  8th grade girls.  Two parishes that are famous for good programs.  So, there's an idiot in the last row behind the one team's bench who starts in on us BEFORE THE JUMP BALL.  "You better toss it straight."  "You guys don't look too swift."  One of the problems is that we face as referees is that we were taught to ignore the idiots.  The problem is, that that worked before things got worse.  Now, I believe that a little bit of street justice needs to be used. (I'm a big believer in street justice..particularly with regards to bullying.  But that's another issue)  Zero tolerance of stupidity needs to be applied to slow the shit down.

Anyway, we were ignoring idiot; and his team takes an 8 point lead at halftime; which for 8th grade girls is significant.  at the start of the second half the other team steals the ball and goes down for a layup an the shooter is fouled too.  He thought is was a bad call and started in on us.  We tried to ignore him until the next foul call on his team and he's yelling at us and the scorekeeper and scoreboard operator are looking at him instead of me as I'm trying to report the foul.  Ok, now he's interfering with the game.  (His team is still winning by 7. )  I told him he needs to knock it off if he wanted to stay in the gym.  His response?  "This is America.  I can say what I want."  My response to him?  "Not in my gym.  Goodbye."

"I'm not leaving."

In my loudest voice for everyone to hear, "Scorekeeper, put :30 on the gameclock and start it.  If the horn goes off and he's still in the gym, the game is over and its a forfeit."  Three Dad's bodily carried him out of the gym.  

Now I'm an experienced referee.  I do high profile Varsity Ball.  The only reason I'm doing this game is because its at my home parish and they asked me to work it.  Imagine if some newbie had to deal with that guy.  How would that have affected his outlook on this new job he just started that year.  

That's the kind of shit we as a society of parents and sports fans are facing if things don't change and soon.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Man, there are some butt hurt people here.  How in the world could this post get a DV. ?  That's OK.  I collect them like medals.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Buck61's picture

probably the same people who can't pass the rules test

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CALPOPPY's picture

Man, there are some butt hurt people here.  How in the world could this post get a DV. ?  That's OK.  I collect them like medals.

TNB, I agree about the DV, but it’s not even worth a comment.

Memento mori

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Sanitarian2's picture

Wasn't me, you're entitled to our opinion and life experiences. I played in the CYO state tourney many years ago. Was from a little farm village and we won our region and even our first game and then played a team from Cleveland. We were all lily white farm boys with zero experience with any other race or culture and the other team started a 6'9" AA, a 6'5" PF and an all state LB. I took a charge at half court from the 6'9" guy(I know, some on this forum consider charges to be weak) and later the LB undercut me while I was sprinting down the sideline and I flew eight feet in the air, came down on my head on a metal folding chair and then bounced off the floor, on my head. Don't remember the rest of the game, Good times.

Sani

HS
Zimmy07's picture

“we were taught to ignore the idiots”

I figured as much.  When I was at my kid’s football games I would yell out “holding!” Or “facemask!” If I saw it maybe hoping to draw attention to it.  It never seemed to work.

I think I lost it only one time.  One of my sons played D-Line & was undersized for that but we had practiced exploding off the line as soon as he saw the ball move. He got into the backfield a lot because of that.  Some teams started cut blocking him to stop that & I told him to pin the player down, find where the ball was going, & go that way.  If it was a pass, he could risk jumping the guy, try not to step on them, but not overly hard.

During one game I saw him get stonewalled & pushed backwards & thought - dang, he’s finally up against someone good.  But after the whistle I saw him on top of a guy.  Weird, I thought.  Next play I watched more closely & they were chop blocking him.  That pissed me off - it’s dangerous & I feared for his knees.  I was screaming at the ref about “They are chop blocking - you can’t block high and low on the same player!  It’s a chop block!”  I was legit enraged.  I never verbally attacked the refs by saying anything about them, though.

They never called it.  The other team stopped doing it after that series, though.

HS
Sonof'47alum's picture

I guess I will never understand parents who get worked up over refs in youth matches or high school games or anything of that nature.  

The first time I ever recall seeing something involving a parent was when I was in 9th grade in the 1960s when my local high school won the state soccer title over our arch-rival, which was located in the next town over.  It was naturally an intense match.  Our team won 3-0 and shut down our opponent’s top player who was the state’s leading scorer.

At the game’s conclusion, the father of that top player ran out in the field and verbally accosted the refs.  He was a Greek immigrant, so people tried to minimize it by saying, in essence, well that’s the kind of stuff that goes on in European or South American soccer matches.  In other words, it was viewed as an aberration and wasn’t the type of conduct we’d expect to see here.

Little did we know that berating refs would ultimately become so commonplace at youth and school games here.

HS
Wargor's picture

On the winning and losing, I agree, hard to understand how some people get so worked up.  Watching a soccer game between 11 year-old girls get physically out of hand and worrying that I was going to run out of fingers to count the concussions...yeah, there were some worked up parents.  Laziness and safety (lack there-of) are the two things that bother me in officiating.  

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

As time goes on people in general really do need supervision in certain areas. Cities and towns may have to start staffing all youth sporting events with police/sherriff's to stop this stupid shit. 

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

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NewPhilaFan's picture

Because of cost cutting in our area, there aren't enough police officers to staff all youth games.

Let's Go Bucks

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GulfCoastBuck's picture

I feel compelled to chime in on this thread. I have been officiating soccer games at various levels since 1993 to include NCAA and lower level professional leagues. No referee, regardless of experience or skill, will get every call right, ever. I can say that parents have gotten consistently worse over the years, and that attitude has started to bleed over to the kids participating at all levels. In my area of Louisiana, there is a dire shortage of officials, and I’m not sure what the solution is to fix it, but over the last 10 years we lose 60-75% of new referees during their first year of officiating games.

HS
Lifetime45's picture

A few thoughts...

1. Your kid is not going pro so stop with that fucking pipe dream right now. It is the odds of a lotto ticket at best.

2. Never put yourself in the position that the ref decides the game. Your fault; not the ref.

3. Eliminate all replay reviews, VAR, etc. Human error is part of the game, including the ref.

4. If you get so mad at the result of a “game” that you fight other people, break TV’s, sulk for 3 days... get a fucking hobby. Build ships in a bottle or take up needle point.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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IHadToGoogleArchiesMiddleName's picture

2. Never put yourself in the position that the ref decides the game. Your fault; not the ref.

100% agree with you. I coach middle school and I will go to my grave saying this no matter what level I end up coaching.

I also won't tolerate a player giving any sort of verbal or non-verbal response to a call toward a referee. They can share their complaints with me and if I deem it necessary, I will discuss with the official. I was taught that you play the game and if the refs mess up, that's part of the game... and if my coach thought the missed call was egregious, he would let the officials know. End of story.

We have some officials at the middle school level that aren't great and that causes frustration at times, but the thing that makes it a thousand times worse is when mom or dad sits in the stands and argues every call against their little princess, because all of a sudden little princess thinks she can do no wrong and her absolute shock and dismay at any call against her is completely justified. But, as I have to tell them over and over, at the end of the day, if the ref says you fouled or traveled, guess what? You fouled or traveled. Either get over it and continue playing hard or hurt your team by sulking and complaining and then you'll get to spend some quality time with me on the bench. Your choice.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

A very famous high school football coach around here has a preseason parents meeting.  One of the things he does is ask the parents, “What’s the definition of holding.”  Invariably some smart Dad will give a text book answer.  The coach will wait until he gets three or four good answers and then he’ll say, “Those are all good answers.  But you’re all wrong.  The correct answer is whenever the official drops his little yellow rag and grabs his wrist.  Once you come to terms with that, you, your son and I will all enjoy the season more.”

Always thought it was a great exercise.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
IHadToGoogleArchiesMiddleName's picture

Parents that think they know the rules are the absolute worst. I lived in the middle of nowhere PA for a while, and all the parents there had literally zero knowledge of basketball but would incessantly yell at the refs for every call. At one point, in a high school game mind you, one of the kids on our team very clearly stepped over the baseline while inbounding the ball and got called for it and one of the moms yelled out "what, did he breathe on the defense the wrong way?" I was stuck halfway between busting up laughing and moving away from them due to embarrassment.

Needless to say, none of the kids had any idea how to play through calls (or even knew the rules) because all they ever had modeled to them was that it's always someone else's fault and never their own. It was pretty sad.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

One of the things i learned a long time ago, (before I put on the zebra stripes)  teams take on the characteristics of their coach.  If he constantly whines at the officials then they will too.  And if they're whining  at the officials, they're not fully engaged in the game and looking to get their assess run out of the gym.

A former referee , who was a bit of a loose cannon (part of the reason he's former) one time got tired of a coach screaming about every call against his team, stood in front of the coach's bench during a substitution and yelled loud enough for the whole gym to hear,"That was a Stupid substitution!  Why did you do that?"  The coach was shocked.  Some of the crowd laughted.  HE committed the fantasy act many officials dream about.  He didn't last long as an official though.  legendary.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
erniefurgler's picture

Much easier to "call" a game from the stands vs. being on the court/field.   The most abuse I see/hear is in basketball.  With the speed of the game, there are going to be some questionable calls and the ref's gonna miss one once in a while

My main issue with officials is when they act like people paid to watch them officiate.  Let the kids decide the game.  The official 10'  from the play doesn't make a call, yet the guy 40' away comes running in & blows his whistle.   The better officials I've been around (and I have coached HS basketball) are the ones that warn a player (keep you hands off, shut your mouth, etc) and talk with the fans during timeouts.  I'll have more respect for an official that admits they didn't have a good angle to make a call than a guy that acts like he is all-knowing. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

This is exactly right.  Everything you said is true.  The only caveat I would say, is "let the kids decide the game" means different things to different people.  The obvious one is the call right at the end of the game?  The fans of the fouled team like the call.  The fans of the offending team are yelling let the kids decide the game.   Of course, what they choose to ignore is if the player DID commit a foul, he DID decide the game.  If the official swallowed his whistle at the end instead of calling the foul, then he gave an advantage to the offending team and HE decided the game. 

What I miss the most is the interaction with the players and coaches.  And frankly, I loved messing with the cheering sections of the schools.  I go over to one and say that from the floor it sounded like the other side was louder.  Or I'd tell one of the guys dressed stupid (like some schools do)  that the cheerleaders from the other team were laughing at his outfit.  I had fun.  But most of all, I missed the comraderie with my partners.....well, most of them.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
erniefurgler's picture

Agreed...if it's a foul with 4:03 on the clock, then its a foul with :03 seconds on the clock as well.  I've been part of games (playing & coaching) where the officiating was inconsistent, but I've never witnessed a game where the ref's "decided" it.  The losing team tends to forget the 15 turnovers & 10 missed FT's they had throughout the game

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

The other one I always liked was, “Ref, you’ve called 6 fouls on us and 1 on them!”

i always had a couple of pat responses.

  1. i don’t count them coach.  I just call them.
  2. Well, tell your team to stop fouling then.

The second one was a little more inflammatory, so I would only use it in certain situations.  

One team plays an in your face high pressure man to man and the other is in a passive 2-3 zone.  The foul differential is going to be significant.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
NorthPoleBuckeye's picture

Agreed...if it's a foul with 4:03 on the clock, then its a foul with :03 seconds on the clock as well. 

Yep! It bothers me when someone insists that the players be "allowed to play" in the last minutes like it's a free for all. A foul is a foul is a foul, no matter when it occurs. 

HS
Buckeye_Condor's picture

TNB as he prepared to post this. 

Connor Brown

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

LOL.  I wish.

More like:

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
allinosu's picture

The problem on the other thread wasn't your position but your attitude toward others like GoFor3. His take wasn't as nearly what you made it and you came off like those in the video that you were so adamantly against. 

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CedarBuck92's picture

All I want to see is the rules equally enforced. 

HS
Buck61's picture

i know that this a little off topic, back in my time many places never had a place to meet,  a place to change clothes or shower, especially at the lower levels. I was never a big fan of showing up in my officiating uniform and going home in a sweaty one after a game. Putting that uniform in the locker helped change my mindset and helped me focus on the upcoming game. It was also an easy way for that deluded parent to see you easier in the parking lot before or after the game.. When I was working my way up as a jv official I always tried to watch the varsity game and watch the more experienced people work a game from the bleachers, much easier in street clothes to blend in.

The schools need to provide a decent ( ie clean) place to meet with my partners pre game, a place to change into my uniform from street clothes and take shower after a game and leave in my street clothes. I can understand at the community level where the kids just shop and play there are often no locker rooms. If a school provided towels and water or a beverage that was icing on the cake. Usually brought your own to a location i never worked before.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

The OHSAA required schools to provide a place to change and meet for a pregame and postgame conference.  Most provided a shower as well, although there were a couple of places where discretion was the better part of valor and we just passed on the shower, LOL.  But you are right, treating the assignment like a professional was part of what was expected of us, and arriving at a school already in gear was a big no-no.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Bigmarty's picture

This is just a reflection of the entitlement era, not just in sports.  My son coaches and runs a soccer club with 1,000 girls.  The stories he relates about parents attempts to interfere because "She is my daughter", make me sick.  Many of these same parents attempt to be the worst during games.  Unfortunately for their daughter, they are banned from the games or asked to leave the club.  I don't see this as a sport or referee problem but a societal one, almost as bad as using a sport for a political statement.  Just play the game and shut up.

HS
Wargor's picture

I don't know, I find bad behavior by parents at games much worse than political speech associated with sports.  As an example, some parent making an ass of themselves is far worse than a politician sponsoring a race car.  Free speech can be messy and is rarely received well by those who disagree with it, but it is a cornerstone of a free society; being abusive on the sidelines of a kid's game has no redeeming value.

HS
Sanitarian2's picture

Agreed, the only real question is where that line is between free speech and abuse of officials is located. I don't think anyone thinks that a couple fans yelling, "Three Seconds" is abuse, even in todays society. Foul language, attacks on the officials physical features or ethnicity or screaming at him or her all game long certainly crosses that line. 

Sani

HS