Game of Thrones -- Season 8 -- Part 5 -- Aired Episode and Book Spoiler Discussion

Show All Comments

Hovenaut's picture

Also forgot this prediction...it'd be cool if Arya and Nymeria crossed paths one last time.

HS
stubbzzz's picture

I haven’t read the books, but from what I gather, the White Walkers were supposed to have Ice Spiders, as big as hounds.   My guess is that in the books, Nymeria’s giant wolf pack is being set up to join the big battle at Winterfell as like an animal army counterbalance to those giant spiders.   Kind of like the Eagles in Lord of the Rings maybe?   I think that’s probably Nymeria’s only purpose left towards the story, so I’m afraid that’s probably it for the Direwolves.  It’s too bad HBO, for as much money as they do have, couldn’t afford to show us all that epicness.   They can barely even afford to include just Ghost.   

HS
Crumb's picture

I just hope that in a week I'm not sitting here wishing the Night King had won. 

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

Me too. Anticipating a let down. Where's the enjoyment in that?

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

OK, I admit I enjoyed E5 more than I thought I would

HS
Frimmel's picture

The dragon effects and burn stunts are top notch. There were some dangerous stunts in this from the looks of things. I don't think all of that was CGI. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Bringing the heat right from the get.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

How ya like me now?

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Rocket Man's picture

Dany is the Mad Queen.

Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege. 
Tyrion: A wedding. 
Varys: Exactly.

HS
Rocket Man's picture

Arya is very cool.

Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege. 
Tyrion: A wedding. 
Varys: Exactly.

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Where does Diamond Dave buy his pants?

  ... asking for a friend...  

HS
logamaniac's picture

Well aside from one touching scene this episode thus far, sucks.  Hopefully it improves and I’ll update my views for discussion.  

HS
logamaniac's picture

Well I guess the show decided all the prophecy stuff was bullshit.  

Hopefully George decides to finish the literary saga with his own vision. 

HS
RBloodworth's picture

Well, the Azor Ahai prophecy has the Prince who was Promised kill the love of his life to bring light to the world and save it from darkness, so, there’s that.  

GRRM always said that this would have a bittersweet ending, but I fail to see anything sweet here.  It’s actually fucking depressing.

HS
logamaniac's picture

All the talk about who killed Cersei and it turns out, it was gravity.  

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

 I fail to see anything sweet here.  It’s actually fucking depressing

The showrunners won't be able to ruin anything else after next week, that's gotta count for something...

Shandy is not beer

HS
Jumar's picture

Arya needs a happy ending. The rest can die.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Arya needs a happy ending 

Shandy is not beer

HS
BuckeyeChief's picture

Please don’t let Arya die like that.

HS
Jumar's picture

I was going to turn it off if Arya died like that.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
Rocket Man's picture

Welp, I never thought I'd be rooting for Arya to kill Dany, but here I am.

Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege. 
Tyrion: A wedding. 
Varys: Exactly.

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

Yes, feels like could be a setup for that

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Has to be Jon.

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Rocket Man's picture

I believe you are correct sir.

Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege. 
Tyrion: A wedding. 
Varys: Exactly.

HS
BuckeyeAsylum's picture

Could it be her disguised as Jon killing Dany?

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Jon has to kill Dany. Pretty much the end game. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Concur. Jon or Arya, but Jon makes more sense. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Frimmel's picture

Jon and Arya seems a possibility. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Jon killing Grey Worm IMO

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
RBloodworth's picture

Yep.  Jon is Azor Ahai and Dany is Nissa Nissa (and of you don’t get that reference because the stupid showrunners never bothered to mention it, then I suggest you check out A Wiki of Ice and Fire).  Jon kills Dany and walks off to a self-imposed exile in the North like the Man with No Name.

HS
Jumar's picture

Jon kills Dany and walks off to a self-imposed exile in the North like the Man with No Name.

That seems likely. There is no throne, so Dany did break it...just not like she thought. Sansa will rule the north and the rest will be on their own.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Yep. Pretty much going to happen this way 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Oooh.  I have no idea what you’re talking about, but that sounds like a good ending.   No Throne.   

HS
Hanawi_'s picture

If Jon is Azor Ahai, was his rejection of Dany's advances the pulling of the sword out of her? Figuratively. Though if his is a flaming sword, maybe he's doing her a favor. 

Seriously, all he had to do was take one for the team and keep on with the incest. Soon as he rejected the love, she decided to go with fear. 

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Haha so true.  I blame Jon Snow.  If he would have just made out with her by the fire there, when she was at her breaking point, it might have saved thousands of lives.  

HS
stubbzzz's picture

I agree.  Or even Tyrion?  But I think Jon is the only one with enough resolve to do the right thing even if it would destroy his own heart.  Arya has already had her big moment.  It wouldn’t be good story telling to let her have all the big kills, and Jon none.   

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

It wouldn’t be good story telling to let her have all the big kills, and Jon none.

And what do the showrunners say to good story telling?

 Good story telling is still bleeding out alongside Jon Snow in Castle Black

Shandy is not beer

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

7 seasons of Dany character development out the window in 1 episode 

Jaime turns out to be a little bitch

Clegane Bowl was awesome 

Drogon is a beast 

HS
Crumb's picture

My takes as well, CTBuckeyeFan. Everyone was true to their character in this episode except Dany and Grey Worm. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Clegane Bowl was awesome 

I was really hoping for another one of these when he kept stabbing The Mountain and the dude just wouldn't die

Shandy is not beer

HS
Beantown_Buckeye's picture

I agree that the switch was flipped too quickly with Dany (6 episode final season unfortunately will do that) but she's flirted with the "mad" side of the Targaryen lineage throughout the series. I disagree that it is not in line with her character development. This possibility was always there for her. She frequently struggled to suppress her worst impulses. There was always the question of whether her main purpose was doing good or becoming Queen because she felt entitled to it, and doing some good was a convenient companion to that goal.

I also think Jaime's arc ended in an interesting way. He fully understood the choice he was making and why it was wrong. He simply accepted he was the only one, along with their children, who could bring a level of humanity to Cersei and he decided he wanted to go out of the world the way he entered it. Cersei spent much of the past few seasons as a sub-human character with no morality and Jaime gave her some humanity back. I always expected he would kill her but I actually found their ending more satisfying in a way. For all the terrible things Cersei did she was able to die in a dignified way. Not everyone gets their fair comeuppance. 

HS
Frimmel's picture

 I disagree that it is not in line with her character development. This possibility was always there for her. She frequently struggled to suppress her worst impulses. There was always the question of whether her main purpose was doing good or becoming Queen because she felt entitled to it, and doing some good was a convenient companion to that goal.

Thanks for that. I was looking in my posting last evening for just that way to put it about Daenerys. All the folks who were surprised by Daenerys burning it all down didn't seem to be following along to me. I don't remember if it is a book only thing but they lined the way to one of the slave cities for Daenerys with crucified slaves. Daenerys then crucified  a very large number of masters.

She didn't put entire slave cities to the sword but there were undoubtedly masters who were not cruel killed. There was the bit about the slave who wanted his job back. Daenerys had not in point of fact made his life better by freeing him. 

Daenerys did in point of fact steal The Unsullied. What would Dany have done if The Unsullied actually decided to quit? She let her think that was out of love for her and not just, "What else are we going to do?" 

He's been dead so long now it is easy to pretend that Daenerys didn't learn some poor character traits from her brother. What she was actually taught in her upbringing hidden behind the horrors of a forced marriage to a barbarian at the behest of men using her. A marriage that without she'd have gained none of her power. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

A lot of main characters got shwacked today. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Frimmel's picture

Well I have missed a few in the past but I think the butcher's bill for tonight is:

Varys

The Iron Fleet

The Golden Company

Euron

Clyburn

The Queen's Guard

The Hound

The Mountain

Jaimie

Cersei

Dany's Soul. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

TBF, I think Dany lost her soul somewhere near the end of season one when stepped into the funeral pyre with Drogo.  But that's just me.

That list looks pretty comprehensive, though.

I did like Arya calling the Hound by his given name when she thanked him. And Sandor got over his fear of fire enough to kill the Mountain. That was a karmatic death.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Frimmel's picture

One might argue that Daenerys has always been mad. She's just been able to put some idea of a larger goal ahead of her short term rages and such. She just hasn't had the power. There is also the part of how Mereen turned on her and the uprising and such. What was her line, "Fear then." If she's going to rule the realm by fear King's Landing needed to be made an example of.

I've personally seen this sort of decision making from women in my life, "Oh, that's what you think I'll do? You think I'm a tyrant? Well, then since that's what I am. That's what I'll be." 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Jorah also kept her is check somewhat.

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Frimmel's picture

I think she just decided to stop pretending she was a good person and was doing any of this for anything other than her own aggrandizement and revenge. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I prefer to think her perceived betrayal by Jon pushed her into a deep depression and madness was the result of that abject hopelessness she felt.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Frimmel's picture

But that's the mad part isn't it? She perceived what Jon did as betrayal. She perceived who Jon turned out to be as betrayal from the outset. She lost Jon down in the crypts of Winterfell when she put herself before Jon and The Realm and when all was said and done felt she was owed and tolerated no delay in seeing the debt paid. She didn't see love and honesty from Jon in the crypts she saw threat. 

She broached no compromise for Jon as King. She wasn't after her family's throne which should make her all in for Jon. It was about her not her family. Her intent was to rule with Jon as the new version of Daario as mere concubine or servant allowed to maybe run the armies or something to keep him from being underfoot.

She is quite content to sit a throne that she is not entitled to (other than by right of conquest now but she justified her conquest as reclaiming a birthright.) 

You don't get to work through stage two of grief by burning cities. That's madness first and worse weakness in giving in to anger and not doing what is right. 

Do not let her off the hook. She did evil to King's Landing. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
CincyBuck's picture

I think she just decided to stop pretending she was a good person and was doing any of this for anything other than her own aggrandizement and revenge.

Spot on.  To me, everything that Dany has ever done was out of some combination of entitlement, self-aggrandizement, delusion of grandeur, and/or a desire to gain power at any cost.  Quite literally, she sailed multiple civilizations across a sea, away from their homes, to fight a war that none of them had anything to do with.  Along the way, she routinely exhibited a willingness to resort to brutality when she felt like it -- and would've done so even more had it not been for her advisers keeping her in check from time to time.

I think this is a pretty natural character progression for her -- if not the one that's been foreshadowed all along.  Sure, it may have been rushed just a bit this season.  But, hey, so has every other plotline.  So...

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

To me, everything that Dany has ever done was out of some combination of entitlement, self-aggrandizement, delusion of grandeur, and/or a desire to gain power at any cost. ... she routinely exhibited a willingness to resort to brutality when she felt like it -- and would've done so even more had it not been for her advisers keeping her in check from time to time.

Sorry, I'm not buying the "she's always been crazy" line:

  • She chose to free the Unsullied when she could have easily kept them as slaves
  • She turned down the offer a ships, gold and an army from the Yunkaish masters in order to liberate the liberate the city and ultimately destroy the entire slave industry in Essos
  • She chained up her dragons after Drogon inadvertently killed a little girl while hunting
  • When she saw the Dothraki raping and enslaving women after one of their raids she claimed all of the women for herself to save them
  • She has only ever directed her anger and hatred at those who deserved it, while repeatedly going out of her way to avoid harming innocent civilians
    • She even executed a slave that killed a master that was on trial for murder

Were Dany's actions really that much worse than anything Jon Snow (he killed a kid younger than Bran, after all) or any other lord would have done when faced with those situations? Tywin Lannister had his troops sack and rape the entirety of Kings Landing during Robert's Rebellion, and yet everyone other than the Starks and Martells seem fine with it.

This was just too abrupt of a switch to full-on crazy, imho. I could have understood it if she had maybe opted to destroy the Red Keep (with all those innocent civilians inside) after the troops surrendered, but I have a hard time understanding/believing that she would opt to destroy the rest of the city prior to attacking the Red Keep itself.

Shandy is not beer

HS
CincyBuck's picture

Agree to disagree.  Though I think most of those events can be equally seen as someone fulfilling his/her own God complex and/or trying to amass a force to challenge the Westeros Crown.  The fact that she reminds everyone of every one of her alleged good deeds -- e.g., breaker of chains, freer of the Unsullied, inventor of Taco Tuesdays, etc. -- furthers that suspicion to me.  As does her insistence on roasting everyone who doesn't "bend the knee" before they even realize who she is (Random Dude: "what's your name, again?"; Dany: "DRACARYS!")

Your point by analogy to the other characters is well taken.  But, to me, that proves something else.  Pretty much nobody is a traditional protagonist; everybody's kind of a dick.  A lot of the characters were far better before a pure desire for power ruined them.  That is, except for recent Jon Snow, who has almost become too much of a purist to even be believable in the GoT world.

Regardless, now that she is crazy, it'll be interesting to see where it goes from here...     

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Everything you said is valid until your last paragraph about the abrupt switch.  All she did was go all Glenn Close by saying "I won't be ignored" to Jon Snow.  Its just, instead of boiling a pet bunny, she unleashed her own pet.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Frimmel's picture

Everything you've spelled out is convenient to her goals. 

She stole The Unsullied and sacked Astaphor to do so. Killed all the slave masters who deserved it simply for owning slaves? Even owners of slaves like the guy who wanted his "job" back. The man whose life was not made better by being freed. How many masters was that? Just the men or their wives too? 

Where would The Unsullied have gone? What would they have done? Aside from Greyworm do we really know anything about The Unsullied? This week is the first time an Unsullied other than Greyworm has spoken isn't it? The Unsullied of the books are brainwashed and drug dependent. Much like the Jem'Hadar in Deep Space Nine. Ar argument could be made that The Unsullied weren't even conscious when freed. Bronn's conversation with Jaimie from a season or so ago about what soldiers fight for comes to mind. How can you free something from its only reason for existing? 

Daenerys saved the woman and she betrayed her and killed Drogo. 

The dragons would have been hunted and killed like any predator preying on the area's livestock. She'd let them run till they started taking children. She was also paying for the taken livestock but was being taken advantage of as well with all and sundry saying they'd lost animals to the dragons. It was practical to lock up the dragons and she only caught two and those two are dead. 

She'd already chosen to rule by fear with Tarly's men. She executed Randall and Dickon for what exactly? 

Some very old wisdom that was once imparted to me, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."  

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

TBF, I think Dany lost her soul somewhere near the end of season one when stepped into the funeral pyre with Drogo

I blame the horse heart

Shandy is not beer

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Cersei and Jamie death predictable and anticlimactic. 

Dany still has to settle stuff with Sansa and Tyrion. Jon has to stop her. Still need to know Ayra’s ending. Hopefully to Gendry. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
KBonay's picture

He’s one of them. Grayworm has him to rights. 

HS
Jumar's picture

Jon has to kill Grayworm.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

For a hot second, I thought Greyworm was going to throw down against Jon in the city. I wouldn't have put it past Dany at this point to have someone assassinate Jon.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Jumar's picture

Same. Was kind of hoping Jon would take out Grayworm. Wasn't Jon called the best swordsman at one point?

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I think that is coming next week 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
McGrind's picture

Jon is not the best...Pod the Rod..is the best swordsman in the 7 Kingdoms. 

He could of flipped Cersei if given a chance.

Justice delayed is justice denied....#FTP

HS
BuckeyeAsylum's picture

Honestly thought that might be coming in her 1 on 1 with him and after he rejected it she'd kill him or something. Only because this show likes to give a middle finger to characters like crazy,

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

Think there's any chance Jamie and Cersei aren't actually dead yet?

HS
Frimmel's picture

Nope. That's a romantic way to take care of Cersei and Jaimie without needing some sort of execution or trial or whatever. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

You're probably right Frimmel, but I keep thinking that in the books, Stannis was not a confirmed kill. I don't think he died on-screen in the show either.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

You didn't see his head rolling on the ground but you saw Lady Brienne swing the sword

Shandy is not beer

HS
Frimmel's picture

In the books Stannis is not yet dead. The books are only up to the end of Season Five and Jon bleeding out on the ground in Castle Black. Stannis and his men are freezing and starving outside of Winterfell.

Show Stannis going down was botched by a bad edit. Didn't get the body but Brienne confirmed she killed him on screen. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
KBonay's picture

Yep, just like we all predicted. 

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Sooooooo, where the fuck did that white horse come from?

HS
Frimmel's picture

Pretty standard image I think. 

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This show hasn't really been subtle with this sort of stuff. It bolsters an argument for Arya to kill Dany. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

I’m thinking she rides it to Gendry, seeing all that will make her sentimental.

HS
stubbzzz's picture

I hope so.  I’m ready for her to retire from the assassin game and get her soul back. 

But really glad we got to see her and the Hound walking around like a couple of bad asses again.   

HS
JohnnyKozmo's picture

I think she was ready to retire until she saw Dany kill all of the innocent civilians.  I’m thinking she’ll want to also go after Dany.  Jon probably does it in the end, but she’ll be involved somehow.  Maybe taking care of Greyworm so she can use his face so Jon can then get close to Dany?

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

HS
saintstephen11's picture

Arya on the pale horse is symbolic of death (straight from the bible). Dany beware.

Lily White Lilith cometh. 

HS
stubbzzz's picture

true.  Also could have been symbolic of all the death around her in that moment.   Or even better, her finally coming face to face with the many faced god (death) that she’s been chasing all these years. 

By riding it out of there, she’s literally making her escape, but hopefully also a symbolic escape from her obsession with dealing out death, herself.   But it could just as easily be symbolic of her riding Death for one last mission.   We’ll find out next week I guess, but I’m hoping it’s Jon that ends up having to put down Dany.   

HS
awlinBrutus's picture

Over the weekend, yes sick brag ahead, after getting my new $300 75” smart tv, I watched S1EP1 as all fans told me that would hook me. Watched it twice, nothin. I wasn’t ready at all for the brutal violence. I mean lopping off heads left & right. Sunday tried watching it again on my new $240 iPad lol. I get off on sales. Gotta eat bologna sandwiches the rest of the week but hey. 

So I turned my attention to the current EP on my tv right before Danny arrived with her (supposedly) last dragon. That may have won me over. The queen was given an opportunity to surrender, she did not. Nuking the entire city was necessary for those times. Hiroshima & Nagasaki was thought to be necessary as well. After 911 that’s exactly I wanted to see happen to Iraq, Iran & Syria. Carpet bomb the middle east once and for all.

That episode may have made me a fan. What was the back story of these two women? Asking for a friend,lol

MICHIGAN STILL SUCKS

HS
Wargor's picture

See below, but I can't buy into why nuking the city was necessary, for those times or any other.  The soldiers had surrendered and the bells were signalling it.  Any opposition left was in the red keep, but instead of going right there, she starts killing civilians.  Her actions made about as much sense as if we would have nuked Rome (if we had the bomb) after the Germans declared it an open city.  

A closer analogy might be the German bombing of Rotterdam after a ceasefire, though in that case the Germans were at least trying to abort the mission, and the demonstration did lead to quicker surrenders of other Dutch cities.  By killing a couple hundred thousand people she might have an easier time ruling the kingdom she conquered with her foreign armies.  She does reference fear as all she has as a way to govern...Perhaps her breaking of the wheel will give a future of a dragon burning a human face - forever. 

HS
awlinBrutus's picture

Ok, I guess I misinterpreted the bells, I thought the bells signaled “attack, defend the Queen” from the reaction on Dany’s face. Or whatever bells meant back in the day.

As far as nuking a entire city of course it would be wrong, but that has nothing to do with the attackers agenda. If Dany is to control all the cities by birthright, then by her perception she cannot  afford a entire city of disgruntled and treasonous subjects in her Kingdom as well as the offspring of those that died to grow up and cause trouble in her Kingdom. Totally different mindset as people were viewed as being a commodity. 

Wargor, is she hiding more dragons?

MICHIGAN STILL SUCKS

HS
Wargor's picture

Nuking the city was Dany's choice alone, so not really part of any agenda other than hers.  Also, it is hard to really make the case that they are treasonous.  Their city (and continent) was conquered by an original usurper ~20 years ago.  For ~17 years there was peace and order and no reason to believe that either of two royal refugees would ever return.  Then there was a civil war started by fresh usurpers (from anyone's perspective who didn't know what the audience knew).  None of that makes the residents there treasonous.  As for disgruntled, I doubt she killed them all, and as powerful as that dragon is, it isn't going to taste her food for her nor stand watch over her bedchamber.  Yes, she does have some loyal servants to do that, but they are unlikely to be perfect, nor last forever.  

As for people being viewed as a commodity, sure, except that there are several seasons you missed where she herself didn't have that mindset, nor did several other characters.  And I would argue that it is one thing not to worry too much about the little people (our 20th and 21st century leaders in this country haven't always) and yet another to initiate a whole-sale slaughter of them.  This was not a city that had defiantly resisted a year long siege.  It wasn't even a city that ever turned on Dany's father.  Her father made the mistake of opening the gates to let in the Lannisters who then betrayed him.  Her being mad at them makes about as much sense as Hitler's child being mad at the citizens of Munich.  They didn't betray him, suffered at the hands of his enemies, but made the best of the conquest they lived under after his death.  

As far as we know, there are no hidden dragons.

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Given she just found out Tyrion betrayed her, why would she trust what he said about the bells?  seems the bells could have easily been a trap.

HS
Wargor's picture

"Hmmm...might be a trap, I'd better set fire to a few hundred thousand people just in case."

Or:

"Hmmm...Tyrion betrayed me and he was always prattling on about sparing innocents.  I'll show him!!!"

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

"Hmmmm, I care far more for the people fighting for me than the ones sided against so I'll make sure they aren't ambushed."

Nothing in the show to date shows that she would murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people, so if that's what was in the script the writers dropped the ball big time.

HS
Wargor's picture

The final episode will probably tell us, but I don't think we are going to get a sincere, "I was just being cautious."

She stated right in the episode that she had to use fear since she couldn't get love (not that King's Landing citizenry got much of a chance).  She went full Grand Moff Tarkin and I don't think we're going to get a good explanation that wouldn't have here in the docks at Nuremberg. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Sooooooo, where the fuck did that white horse come from?

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Lord of Light sent it. The only time you see the sun during this carnage is at that moment. Wouldnt be surprised if Arya starts her own Brotherhood.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
JohnnyKozmo's picture

Sisterhood?

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

That'd work. I dont see her being another Red Woman (though Gendry probably disagrees lol)

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
stubbzzz's picture

I guess it was the same horse the leader of the Golden Company was riding at the beginning of the attack.  

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Euron was simply a pointless character. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Apparently he can kill a dragon but not a dude with 1 hand.  High quality writing at work there.

HS
Frimmel's picture

Euron was needing the Iron Islands Victarion storyline in some reason but having never bothered with it properly in the first place and the general not great feelings about book four. Or maybe more waffling or not knowing how to ditch the whole thing while still needing some of the ultimate novel results of that storyline. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
logamaniac's picture

The series neutered his character despite all the fans loving his cocksure attitude

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I was just hoping Yara would get her pound of flesh. He just happens to wash up right where Jamie is? Seemed lazy.

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Crumb's picture

That seems to be the theme of season 8; lazy writing. 

HS
McGrind's picture

Captain Jack wannabe.

Justice delayed is justice denied....#FTP

HS
elitesmithie's picture

Reminds me of a line from the cinematic classic Mission Impossible " They're dead!, they're all dead!"

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Thanks, Cers and Dany for a pretty wild Mother's Day.

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Dany is full mad. That means Sansa, Bran, Sam and Tyrion, etc all are marked for death. 

Time for Jon to sack up and do the right thing. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

If Jon doesn't take Dany out, Dany will end the Starks.

The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. 

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
Dmac3212's picture

John is so soft. If he didn't deny Danny she wouldn't have burned kings landing.

They also made the ending so predictable. I am now team Danny. I hope she burns down winterfell, kills everyone, and the show ends with her sitting on the throne surrounded by a burnt down city. 

HS
logamaniac's picture

At this rate Jon gets locked up and or killed for treason and the north goes to war with dany and Arya kills dany.  Episode and series done.  

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

One thing I didn’t like was Ayra getting religion at the very end. 

Her being in King Landing needs to serve a point. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

I think the point is her seeing Dany go mad queen. Maybe it drives her back to Gendry too.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
Frimmel's picture

Arya is our point of view to see what the regular folk of King's Landing were going through. The point of her being there is to be personally touched by the horrors done on the innocents so we can by touched by those horrors and feel for the innocents as well. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I get that. But it will be interesting how it plays out for her. Many were certain she was killing someone in Kings Landing. I wonder if the writers did a 360 on her and she becomes that lady she told Gendry she wasn’t.

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

They seem to enjoy misdirection at the expense of the story.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

They seem to enjoy misdirection at the expense of the story.

Subverting your expectations

They learned it from this guy:

Shandy is not beer

HS
Crumb's picture

This whole season was still better than The Last Jedi. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Many were certain she was killing someone in Kings Landing.

She got some kids and their mom killed...

Shandy is not beer

HS
Frimmel's picture

She just didn't want to die in King's Landing. She didn't want to end up a miserable old shit.  Might go off to marry Gendry but she won't be staying at home with her embroidery. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
G.'s picture

Where is Tormund? Where is Yara? Whatever happened to the Sands?........ I'm lost.

G.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

The Sands? Euron and Cersei killed them off a long time ago.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Tormund and his wildlings are in Winterfell waiting for winter to end so they can go back north.

Yara is in the Iron Islands.

The Sands died last season.

Shandy is not beer

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Aren’t there 8 Sands though?  Or weren’t there?

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

HBO murdered Dorne, crushed the whole country like a melon

Shandy is not beer

HS
G.'s picture

Nobody knows... I'm pretty sure Jaqen H'ghar plays every character on the show.

And apparently Yara is just chilling at some island resort, and Tormund is drinking cocoa waiting to go hunt down the night king, who... let me guess... is probably already dead or some crazy shit like that, while everyone else is fighting to put House Baratheon back on the Iron Throne.

G.

HS
Barfolomew's picture

Not convinced Jamie and Cersei are dead

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Show runners said they are in the Behind the scenes short.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

Kind of thought the same thing but just don’t see what role they’d play from here if they weren’t. Next week will be all about stopping Dany. Arya kills her and that’s probably why her eyes were green in episode 4

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Where the hell is Daario? Bronn??

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Bronn will prolly get to kill Drogon with his crossbow at this rate

Shandy is not beer

HS
logamaniac's picture

Drogon was going to burn everyone alive, but then he took an arrow to the knee. 

HS
Wargor's picture

Someone steal your sweetroll?

HS
Wargor's picture

I don't care about downvotes, but someone obviously missed the reference.

That or I have a serial down-voter.  Which is pretty cool.

HS
McGrind's picture

OSU medical staff ruled him medically ineligible to play. In the TP now.

Justice delayed is justice denied....#FTP

HS
elitesmithie's picture

Anyone wonder if some of Varys' letters got out pre execution? Heavily implied when he talked to the girl he was going to die but be worth it.

Part 2 - where were they sent? The north already follows Jon so somewhere else?

HS
Jumar's picture

For sure some got out. Probably went to Yara, Dorne and Winterfell to confirm she is going mad.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
BuckZealot's picture

Varys and his scene with his' little bird' made me consider also the possibility Varys was trying to poison Dany;  they seemed focused on trying to get her to eat something and the little girl was from the kitchen IIRC.  "With great risk comes great reward."

Enjoy the wins over *ichigan, ....I still remember the dark days of the 1990's....

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Keep going back to the first episode where Ned executes that deserter. Tells his boys to be the one to swing the sword. 

Think that comes full circle next week for Jon. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

The Lord of Light was talking to Arya. It's the only thing that made sense. Her seeing those families getting burnt alive, including the woman who helped her up when she was about to get crushed to death, filled her with a different resolve than what she entered the city for. She saw "the light." Just curious if her bow and arrow practice will come into play.

I dont think Cersei and Jaime are dead. Not at the beginning of the last episode anyway.

Jon is doomed.

Euron got beat. Jaime, despite losing a hand, was still a great fighter.

Bronn's story still needs to play out.

Tyrion is doomed

Jon vs.Greyworm deathmatch would be great to watch. I dont know if we will get it. 

Dany snapped. The short preview of the last episode reminded me a bit of the scene in The Force Awakens when Hux rallies the troops just before he wipes out half the galaxy. Dany is going to start persecuting everyone who opposed her.

If I were writing the ending of the Clegane Bowl that's how I would have written the ending. Sandor deserved to go out in a blaze of fucking glory taking The Mountain with him.

If Dany is killed what will Drogon do? Will he seek revenge on her killer? Will he die? Will be fly off to never be seen again because he is no longer under Dany's control?

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I dont think Cersei and Jaime are dead. Not at the beginning of the last episode anyway.

Show runners said they are.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

If Dany is killed what will Drogon do? Will he seek revenge on her killer? Will he die? Will be fly off to never be seen again because he is no longer under Dany's control?

good question. Could Jon possibly ride him since he’s a Targ

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

If Dany is killed what will Drogon do?

Drogon and Ghost are getting their own spinoff

Shandy is not beer

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Ghost Rider 3?

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

New Netflix series through Disney, Drogon & The Ghost!

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
stubbzzz's picture

I would watch that show.  

HS
Crumb's picture

And what will the Dothraki and Unsullied do? And what will happen in Essos? I don't think we're going to get most of these questions answered and that's not cool.

HS
Independence Village 22's picture

Satisfying yet a bit depressing. Hoping for something uplifting in the finale. Has to be a point hitter..

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Agree. What was that Ramsay line, "If you were expecting a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

It was a pretty devastating episode; all the deaths that were spared in the Battle of Winterfell were played out tonight in technicolor. Apocalyptic. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Hoping for something uplifting in the finale. Has to be a point hitter..

Shandy is not beer

HS
BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

It’s crazy how quickly I’ve gone from wanting Dany to be on the throne to hoping she gets whacked next episode by Jon or Arya

HS
Hanawi_'s picture

Not going to lie. I almost didn't make it to the end of that episode. The writing was so bad and they chucked so much early character development in like 3 seconds for a bunch of them.

Arya goes all the way to Kings' Landing and into the Red Keep to stop 100 meters away from getting to Cersei? 

I still can't figure out the motivation for Dany to burn the whole city. She just burned the entire Iron fleet and Golden Company (while artfully evading all of the scorpions somehow). I think burning down the Red Keep with Cersei in it would have been enough to instill any remaining fear in the people. I don't buy the Mad Queen at all. Just don't. 

They probably could have just said Euron died on his boat and it would have been just as dumb. Seems like they sent out an internet fan poll for the season of who people wanted to see fight and have sex, and then crammed it into a story.

Now that Cersei's dead, I guess we'll see Bronn again for the last show. No chance of the actors being on set together.

Seems well set up for Arya to kill Dany in the last show. Not sure how they'll kill Drogon. Maybe Jon will tame him. 

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Not understanding Dany's cruelty and madness is part of it all. It was not going to be her kindgom to lead; it would be if it were Jon's. She then played the "if I can't have it, nobody can" card that we all thought Cersei would play. It would always be an easier kingdom to lead without King's Landing in the picture. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Seems like they sent out an internet fan poll for the season of who people wanted to see fight and have sex, and then crammed it into a story.

There's a reason why GRRM hates fan-service...

Shandy is not beer

HS
Jumar's picture

Maybe he could have finished the books to have it done correctly.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Maybe he could have finished the books to have it done correctly. 

Shandy is not beer

HS
Buckeyebull64's picture

Don’t think we’re supposed to get her motivation at that point, cause she’s now insane. So it made sense that she would rampage. I’m just don’t get why it was the bells that set off the psychotic break.  

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

I think it was to put her insane cruelty on a pedestal. It truly establishes the inhabitants of KL, and even the troops who dropped their swords, as innocents, and, then Dany carpetbombs the city all the way to the Red Keep, the pivotal spot that she could have just roasted right after the gates were breached. It was never about victory, it was about annihilation. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Insanity doesn't need logical motivation.  That's the definition of insanity, isn't it?  That facial shot of Dany after Tyrion talks to her was clearly the look of an insane woman wasn't it? 

I knew a guy whose batshit crazy ex-wife had that look.  Good thing she wasn't the Mother of Dragons.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

I’m just don’t get why it was the bells that set off the psychotic break.  

Dany realized that someone, Tyrion or Jon, had gone behind her back again and it was going to cost her everything. Tyrion had asked her to stop the attack if the bells rang. He asked Jon to stop if they rang. Dany stopping could have allowed Cersei to drag things out or escape (which Jamie was trying to do with her). Dany was done restraining herself at that point. The bells were just the last straw (and yeah she went nuts).

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
tkrussell's picture

Except for the fact that Tyrion directly told both her and Grey Worm about the bells before they left Dragonstone. She looked at Grey Worm and nodded, though it was unclear at the time what that nod actually meant. 

HS
Crumb's picture

I'm with you, Hanawi. More than burning down the city they burnt down every previous episode. Dany's character arc just went out the window for the sake of them trying to not be predictable and to not have a completely happy ending. 

HS
KBonay's picture

But that’s just it. Jamie or Arya kill Cersei everyone complains it’s too predictable. A series this big with this many fans is bound to disappoint those who choose to question every outcome. 

I cant wait to finish the books to see just how close or far this ‘outline’ has strayed from the original premise that Martin intended. 

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

It's war. Not only is death omnipresent, but also the notion that it could all go terribly wrong. I thought the tone of the battle was set up when the gates are torched and you realize it's going to be a joyless, non-heroic rout. By then, you can see Dany is on psychopath autopilot. 

HS
Crumb's picture

At some point predictability is okay as long as it's still a good story. Whenever one starts using a plot element such as predictability (or any other plot element) so much and they do it just for it's own sake, it tends to make awful what could have been decent or better if they hadn't bent themselves to said element. 

HS
KBonay's picture

What wasn’t good?

Arya chose life over revenge

The Hound sacrificed himself to his worst fear in order to defeat his biggest enemy. 

Cersei died at the bottom of the very spot she risked everything for. 

Dany, alone and afraid, finally showed what they had hinted for 8 seasons but we were all to stubborn to see it.  She went mad-queen. 

Jamie died the way he wanted, in the arms of the one he loved. 

Euron went out like he came in, with a crazed smile. 

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I thought it was a beautiful disaster. 

HS
CincyBuck's picture

After reflection, I agree with your general premise.  Overall, the episode was pretty well done.  And I think the vast majority of what happened was true to the characters, artfully done, etc.

That said...  if I'm picking nits...  (1) the Euron/Jamie thing was pretty dumb -- I almost think having him be roasted by the one remaining dragon would've made more sense; (2) dragons went from mediocre to absolutely and utterly unbeatable in one episode, which was...  convenient; and (3) the fact that a story that has gone to such great lengths to "connect the dots" and foreshadow future events, yet essentially ignored its own prediction of Cersei's death (let's not readout key portions of the prophecy to get to this result), is...  disappointing.

HS
KBonay's picture

dragons went from mediocre to absolutely and utterly unbeatable in one episode, which was...  convenient

I think this was a tactical change made by Dany.  She came in from above before they could reroute the scorpions.  Then circled behind them before they could turn them around.  When she attacked the shore, she came in low, when they adjusted down, she went up.  Pretty much did what we all complained she didn't do in E4.  

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Yeah.  And once she was inside the city, the scorpions were all pointed away from her anyway it seemed like.   They were pointed outside, while she was already inside.   

HS
JohnnyKozmo's picture

She also came in with the sun behind her.  They literally couldn’t see her on her first run. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

HS
Rocket Man's picture

worst episode ever

Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege. 
Tyrion: A wedding. 
Varys: Exactly.

HS
Crumb's picture

I may be a cold old jerk but I didn't feel bad for any of Cersei's soldiers and had trouble feeling bad for King's Landing. A lot of it reminded me of stories I've heard and read about WWII where Nazi sniper's would pick off Allied soldiers only to surrender at the last second. In all those true stories, I never could fault a G.I., a Tommy, or an Ivan who'd plug em. 

I've been writing a historical fiction short story about the Fall of Berlin and saw a ton of parallels to this episode. 

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Great post, Crumb. To me, this had allusions to Dresden bombings as well.

HS
Crumb's picture

True, and maybe that is why I had a hard time feeling bad for King's Landing, because when you harbor evil tyrants that burn the lives of others, it's going to come back to get you eventually. The Second World War is full of examples. 

HS
Wargor's picture

This seems pretty harsh to me concerning the civilians.  We aren't talking about the people who elected Hitler or a culture invested in its own racial superiority.  These are the merchants and peasants of a feudal society with hereditary monarchy at its core.  They have no Rousseau or Locke you can point to and claim that they should have gained literacy to read if they didn't want to die in dragon fire.  They also don't have radio free King's Landing to to tell them that the foreigners outside their gates are there to liberate them from...how much did Cersai oppress them, by the way?  Compared to any other monarch they'd had or could expect?  The Targarians did do some serious oppressing in living memory.  What did the Lannisters do to the people of King's landing that was so bad that they should have overthrown them for...who?  We know the Lannisters are evil because we know that Eddard was good and right.  We got to see Jamie push Bran out that window.  What did the baker and his daughter on King's Row in Fleabottom get to see? 

They see the North rise in rebellion against Robert's true-born son.  Yeah, that son is a POS, but how many hear about hookers killed with crossbows in the red keep?  We also see Renly and Stannis rise up against their rightful king.  Stannis tries to invade, which would have gone badly for King's Landing, but who saves them?  The Lannisters.  I'm not sure what the common people of King's Landing are supposed to make of the sparrows and the explosion of the temple, but history is written by the winners, and we get no other 'crimes' against King's Landing we can lay at the Lannister's feet.  This isn't a war of conquest gone badly like in WWII, it is a civil war, and we get to know that the Lannister claim is built on a lie, but the people don't.  These aren't free Alabamians in a democracy seceding to protect slavery here.  These are peasants in a monarchy where the other side started the war and invaded in a power grab.

Also remember that 'evil tyrants' are pretty easy to describe when we're talking about the losers in WWII, but all sides in that war "burned the lives of others" and the term gets a lot more subjective after the easy examples on the Axis side in WWII.  I don't want to get into a 'hot button' issue, but think about your phrase 'harbor evil tyrants that burn the lives of others, it's going to come back to get you eventually' from the perspective of someone in Vietnam in the early 70's.  We dropped twice as many bombs there than in all the theaters of WWII combined.  I have to presume they'd have cast Johnson and Nixon in the role of burning tyrants, and their sympathy for us would presumably be in short supply since we not only harbored them, but actively elected them.  I only bring that up to highlight how perspective colors these kinds of broad judgments, not to litigate the morality of that conflict. 

Ultimately, I think you are taking too many liberties with assigning who the good guys and bad guys are such that the citizens of King's Landing have much in the way of culpability.  

HS
Frimmel's picture

There was an episode of the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles where Indy ended up riding with Pancho Villa and some farmer was angry they were taking his chickens and Indy watching all of it was confused they're trying to help the farmer. And the farmer said so and so came by doing things for me and stole my chickens, then so and so came by to free me and stole my chickens, and now you come along to free me and steal my chickens. I don't care who's in charge as long as he stops taking my chickens. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Crumb's picture

Wargor, the thing is and this is especially true after the Lannisters left Casterly Rock in season 7, these people have been the epicenter for the suffering of the Seven Kingdoms for years. War in the North. The downfall of the Baratheons in the Storm Lands. The Mountain raping and pillaging in the River lands. The war in destruction of the Tyrell's and their lands. The same for Dorne. Basically everywhere else in Westeros has suffered because of the Lannisters and their regime and nowhere outside of Casterly Rock supported that regime more than King's Landing. That's not to say that the civilians deserved to be burnt and killed. They didn't, especially after it could have been avoided once the bells rang. I'm just saying that in total war, they aren't all as innocent as children. They're the same people that cheered for Ned Stark's head being chopped off in front of his kids, but also are the same people who rioted against Joffrey and tried to kill him. So they have more responsibility for the actions of themselves and their city than has been shown recently, especially this season. And I think that's why they went full on Emperor and had Dany do the most destruction. If it had just been the soldiers who were avenging fallen friends and murdered family members and neighbors like in WWII it would have been a much more tragic and not particularly any specific person's fault. Your point about the lack of detail available to every average person is very valid. At the same time, many of the people either themselves probably directly contributed to Cersei's war efforts or had family who did. But that doesn't excuse Dany, it wouldn't even excuse an army of the people the Lannisters had oppressed, it just makes it more understandable for the people. I doubt the show will doe this but I imagine the people of the seven kingdoms will be split in their reaction to the news. I think almost all would be like 'yeah, the Dragon Queen is scary and crazy.' but half would be like 'Cersei's regime had it coming!' and the other half 'Wow, that's way too far!' 

HS
Wargor's picture

Good points, and in an era such as that, the rest of the world that didn't see it might not care too much.  

On a few of your points though, the Barathians brought their downfall on themselves by trying to usurp the throne.  Renly was even trying to usurp the usurpation from his brother.  The fight against Rob was a fight against rebellious provinces that tried to break away following the treason of Ned Stark.  I'm sure the people of Atlanta wouldn't have shed any tears if the British came in and burned Washington again in 1864, but the people of Washington were only supporting a legitimate effort to suppress treasonous insurrectionists.  The Union armies put quite a bit of suffering on the south, but at least our modern sensibilities put a lot of onus on the people who started a conflict.  That's why we clutch pearls about the V1's and V2's falling on London even though the British and Americans were visiting far worse on Germany at the time.  

Ned was charged with conspiring with the Berathian brothers, which was a real thing.  He did try to take the throne away from Joffree, who was as far as anyone knew, the rightful king, and he did it in plain view.  We still have the death penalty for traitors in 2019.  If there had been an American conspirator for 9/11, how much blame do you want to take for cheering his execution?  And if you aren't the sort that would, you know millions of your countrymen would have.

Obviously there is less defense for the Mountain's conduct concerning the riverlands, and very little for the surprise turn to High Garden by the political leadership (of which the populous had zero input).  When Hitler invaded Norway (as an example), allied people could say, "look Germans, you may not have expected that, but you elected the people who did it."  As Monty Python taught me many years ago, you don't vote for Kings.

I also want to dispute the notion of 'total war' you use.  A case can be made that our first total war was the Napoleonic wars of the early 1800's.  At that time London had a population twice that of King's Landing and Napoleon was able to field an army greater than 500K for the invasion of Russia while still defending the rest of his conquests.  The Golden Company's 20K was a big deal.  The industrial revolution was in full swing in the UK and catching hold elsewhere.  I don't think we can put our 21st century perspective of total war on the people of Westeros.  We would think of the enlistment office or a draft where citizens show up after getting a letter.  They're more likely dealing with press gangs.

I know you said she's not excused, but I think what she did is less 'understandable' than what you've laid out, even by Westerosy sensibilities.  

HS
logamaniac's picture

The Baratheon’s weren’t usurping.   At least once Robert was recognized as king.  Robert was a usurper of course, as he it was one of his “titles”. 

HS
Wargor's picture

Renly and Stannis were.  At least from the perspective of King Joffree, Son of the lawful Robert.  

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Renly and Stannis were.  At least from the perspective of King Joffree, Son of the lawful Robert.  

I always found it amusing that Myrcella (and possibly Tommen) figured out who their real father was, but Joffrey never did.

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Definite parallels to the fall of Berlin. I saw even more parallels to how the Nazis treated its own citizens during the Battle of Berlin, Cersei closing off the city and access to the Red Keep by closing the gates and trapping her people to be slaughtered. That's exactly what the Nazis did during the Battle of Berlin in 1945, closing large parts of Berlin so the Russians couldn't get to Hitler's bunker and thus leaving their own people to face the wrath of the Red Army.

I did feel for the women and children in Kings Landing. That scene of the woman and child who helped Arya get burned alive filled me with anger and disgust at Dany. But then we forget its war and collateral damage happens in war. That's what makes it so horrible. Nobody ever really wins a war. Everyone suffers, even the people who win.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
stubbzzz's picture

I think the show runners specifically said they were thinking of the bombing of Dresden as a reference.  It was either in their after episode commentary, or on YouTube, they've been posting longer videos, about the making of each of these last episodes.

HS
Wargor's picture

I see the connection from a fire-bombing standpoint, but even with the controversy around the Dresden bombing, King's Landing was not a city miles behind the front with months to go in the war.  With her own troops in the city and the way she was spreading fire all over the place, it is likely she killed more of her allied troops than would have died in mopping up / pillaging a city that was surrendering.  

HS
stubbzzz's picture

That’s awesome that your writing a book! 

HS
Crumb's picture

A short story, more like a chapter of a book haha. And I may end up being just as bad a writer as the GoT guys haha who knows!

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Speaking of which, did you ever read David Benioff's City of Thieves? Pretty entertaining stuff.

HS
BuckZealot's picture

YES!  I thought that was one of the best books I ever read....Couldn't put it down, and mostly based on a true story reportedly.  A friend lent me that book and its made the rounds to at least 5 or 6 readers since.. all loved it.

Enjoy the wins over *ichigan, ....I still remember the dark days of the 1990's....

HS
MiamiBuckeye's picture

I felt very bad for everyone involved, with the exception of Cersei who died far too peacefully for all the suffering and hardship she's been directly and indirectly responsible for. I think this episode powerfully captured how often war can erode any moral distinctions between sides. While no one should be surprised to see the Dothraki up to their old tricks or see a bloodlusted Greyworm lead his Unsullied on a rampage, the Northern Armies absolutely lost all semblance of discipline or restraint (the moment where that one Northerner even tries to attack Jon for intervening is especially telling--the guy recognized his king and didn't care, he wasn't going to let anything stop him from looting and raping), and these are the supposed "honorable" Northerners we've been rooting for from day one. 

Basically there were no good guys or bad guys in this fight, only the victors, the defeated, and the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. 

I write historical fiction too, just finished writing a horror story set in WW2 Belgium. 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Man, that was intense.  Dany is breaking my heart.  And Jon and Tyrion’s too.  

At least I’ve continued my streak of all my best predictions always being wrong.  

I was right about how Jaime would die but wrong about Cersei.  I knew they would die together, but I thought Cersei would have some plan like, “if I can’t be Queen then nobody can” kind of thing, where she threatened to kill the whole city with Wildfire, and then Jaime, would be forced to choke her to death with his golden hand.  ( I didn’t anticipate that Dany would gladly do all of the Mad Queening and destruction for her)   That would have resolved both of their “Mad Queen” and “Kingslayer” story lines.  With the Kingslayer being wrongly slandered for saving everyone the first time, but this time being redeemed by repeating the same action, having no choice but to kill the person he loved most in the world, and again saving everyone, but this time actually being recognized for it.    

Plus, why even give a guy a golden hand, symbolizing his family’s wealth and greed, in the first place, if he’s not going to ever use it to dramatically choke, his evil twin sister/lover/queen?  Amirite?   But I guess I should have seen my wrongness on that one coming a long time ago, considering the fact that the thumb was not really open wide enough to fit her neck in there anyway...

i also had a really good theory about The Hound, The Mountain, the Night King controlling the undead Mountain like a wrecking ball, the Hound’s mortal fear of fire, The Dead being able to be killed by fire, The Hound, The Lord of Light, and Flaming Swords.   

I was wrong about that one too, but at least it still ended in fire, and we got a good long fight, with an epic backdrop, and a great ending.

I still like my ideas a little better, but the shows ideas were still pretty good.   Good enough that I still feel satisfied.  Even though I’ve guessed wrong more often then right, this is still such a great and enthralling story, and still the best TV show I’ve ever seen.  

I have no idea what’s going to happen next week, to end it all.   I guess Dany has to die now?  She can’t get away with that can she?  I feel like she has finally crossed the line that she can’t come back from.   

HS
Crumb's picture

The thing about Cersei's death that I think they under emphasized and will get overlooked because of how they're writing other characters is that those tears in the end were for herself and herself alone. She didn't give a crap about anyone else, and if they were trying to make it seem like she regretted her life of evil at the end, then this is one time I'm glad they failed. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Tyrion's words almost sound prophetic, now:

Shandy is not beer

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Oh!  Good Call!   Damb Quad, you're on fire tonight...

HS
Crumb's picture

How about in season 7 when he and The Hound discuss the possibility of The Hound dying in King's Landing?

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Yeah, what if Tyrion knew that the Red Keep would collapse and would crush Cersei as she tried to escape? That'd require some hellacious clever thought. And yeah I know that would suggest Tyrion planned for Jamie to die too. But maybe he felt they deserved each other nonetheless.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
JohnnyKozmo's picture

I don’t think Tyrion knew or planned the collapse.  There was a dingy by the water like he said there would be.  

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

HS
BuckeyeinSF's picture

Agreed. Jaime was only one of two people during the course of the show who Tyrion truly loved. There's no way he would've sent Jaime there to die.

HS
stubbzzz's picture

that's some good insight, my man.   

I just realized though, if next week, Jon does end up having to kill Dany...  then my idea of Jaime having to kill Cersei, would be a bit redundant in the context of the overall story.  You can't have both Cersei and Dany go out the same way, back to back.  So if that ends up being true, then I can see why the show runners made the decision they made, to save the lover heartbreakingly killing lover story beat for the two main characters.  Makes sense.   Ha, but like I said, I'm always wrong, so who knows?

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

This isn't directed at you stubbzz, its more of a general observation.  There's been alot of complaining and criticism on why have this if you're not going to continue the storyline to a conclusion; why have that if it just hangs at the end.  I actually think that these are intentional.  Its a morality play about the pointlessness and nihilism of the pursuit of power through war.  All these things add to that feeling of pointlessness.  Its almost as if GRRM and the showrunners/writers grin everytime someone complains about that.  An evil laugh and "Good, good, let the hate flow through you. Its supposed to be pointless.  We were effective.  muwahahahahahah."

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Haha yeah.   There is definitely a running thread of that, that is intentional.  I can see that.  Like when Joffrey finally died, it was a huge relief but not very satisfying.  Because there was no heroic moment for anyone, no revenge for anyone, it just kind of was what it was.    

I can respect a deep and artistic approach to anything, but even still it’s only human nature to want to be satisfied in the end.   

But I feel silly complaining about something I thoroughly enjoy as much as Game Of Thrones.   It’s still the best show I’ve ever seen.         

HS
stubbzzz's picture

Also, to your point, GRRM named Rickon’s Direwolf, Shaggy Dog.   And if I’m not mistaken, in literature, a Shaggy Dog story is what they call a story that intentionally has a pointless ending.  So that’s some food for thought, that might actually reinforce the point you’re making.   

HS
Crumb's picture

And the more I think about it, the more The Hound stole that episode. While other characters were either staying the awful people they were or becoming awful people or going back to being awful people or doing the same with stupidity, he was the one with words of wisdom to Arya at a critical moment. 

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

He cared about someone else and did something about it. Arya did, too, but it was not successful. Jamie did, but it was self-serving in a Lannister way, as was Tyrion's decision to free Jamie. Jon had a bad episode all around. I'm looking for a big rebound in the finale. 

HS
Crumb's picture

EvanstonBuckeye, that's what makes character arcs like his, Theon's, and so far Arya's work so well. They keep the good parts of themselves and improve. Jamie and Tyrion haven't really changed all that much. If Jamie had, he'd have stayed with Brienne but he was like a dog returning to its vomit. Tyrion and Jon have been fairly consistent and so had Dany up until this episode. She always had a temper problem and dealt out capital punishment when she had to, but she did a Jesse Owens long jump past the line of tough/crazy and all in one episode. It felt sort of rushed. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Jon had a bad episode all around.

Highest paid extra in television history

Shandy is not beer

HS
stubbzzz's picture

The Hound is the best.   What a great character.   I think he was named after this mythological Irish hero, named Cu Cullen, which means the Hound of the King, (Cullen was the name of the king at the time).  Like a mad dog warrior / body guard for the king who also, has epic and tragic stories.   So I expected the Hound was ultimately going to die...  but man, he might’ve just been my favorite character.   So many great ones it’s hard to choose though.

R.I.P Hound...   tonight, may you feast on all the chickens at that great big medieval pub in the sky

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

R.I.P Hound...   tonight, may you feast on all the chickens at that great big medieval pub in the sky 

Shandy is not beer

HS
Crumb's picture

I just loved that he evolved as the show went on and ultimately showed it by fighting for Arya, in the North, and telling Arya when the right time to walk away was. And poetically, in the end, he pushed his brother's face into a much bigger fire!

HS
InfantryBuckeye5150's picture

That was no battle! That was an orgy of violence...

Well, Columbus wasn't looking for America, my man, but that turned out to be pretty okay for everyone.

HS
GareBear's picture

Devil’s advocate here, but did anyone else see the wildfire explosions around the city? Wonder if Dany didn’t make the right call in saving her troops by razing the city? Who knows what damage those would have done to the “good guys?” 

Michigan sucks

HS
Crumb's picture

I noticed. It'd be nice if they did something with that fact next week, at least mention it, but I don't expect much. It's a good point though. You put those at certain choke points and you're gonna mess up the enemy army big time. 

HS
GareBear's picture

Yeah, either they put in those green explosions just as a nod to fan theories about Cersei blowing the place up, or they plan on mentioning it next week. Otherwise, don’t see much point. 

Michigan sucks

HS
Crumb's picture

Time will tell. I'll look for ya in next week's thread! 

HS
logamaniac's picture

With how the writing has been since the source material dries up I imagine they think we’re dumb enough to just be reminded about the mad king wanting to kill everyone with wildfire.  With Dany basically finishing his work now, with a dragon.  

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

So after all of that, it occurred to me that they never showed the actual Iron Throne during the destruction of KL.  The Red Keep was totally destroyed, but I think the Great Hall was elsewhere. So what happened to the Iron Throne? Did Dany use her foldable tourist map of King's Landing while on the back of Drogon and avoid it, or does is appear in a smoldering pile in the finale?

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Dany had a vision a while ago that see saw the Iron Throne covered in ash. The Red Keep is toast. Watch what is happening behind Clegane and the Mountain falling to their deaths.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I think no matter what happens people are going to be disappointed. This season has felt rushed and them trying to get things done. And not having the books finished has been something they have had to work around. 

If it ends like I am pretty sure it will, it will be good enough for me....(plot line wise). Hoping the writing comes out pretty strong for the final. 

As for character arc...in the end Jamie could not give up his addiction. Tyrion is still the smartest one (although selling out Varys was shitty...he should have been listening to Varys). Ayra seems to be done with that violent lifestyle...one episode after turning down Gendry (although I think that will be her end game).

And Dany has been transformed into being more cruel than Cersei is just a few episodes. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

This season has felt rushed and them trying to get things done.

Couldn't agree more. It's made all the more obvious considering they had 2 years to work on this season, and the fact that HBO wanted a 10 episode season but the showrunners adamantly refused to do more than 6. HBO even gave them a significantly larger budget to work with. The showrunners were done with the series and it absolutely shows.

As for character arc...in the end Jamie could not give up his addiction.

His arc was so complete that it formed a circle.

Hoping the writing comes out pretty strong for the final. 

LOL, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

And Dany has been transformed into being more cruel than Cersei is just a few episodes. 

Agreed. I'm not upset that she turned into a mad queen, but I adamantly hate how the writers went about it. Throwing away 7 seasons worth of growth and flipping the crazy switch for absolutely no reason is far less satisfying than a gradual / deliberate approach that slowly builds over the course of a couple seasons.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I donj't think they flipped a switch.  You could see it coming ever since she fried the Tarleys for refusing to bend the knee.  As Samwell says to Jon, there were other ways to address that.  Jon, blinded by love/lust, continues to make excuses for her.  Dumping her, is what pushed her over the edge.  But she's been walking towards it for awhile.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

I donj't think they flipped a switch

Then why did she burn the city? Every distasteful thing she has ever done, she did for a reason. Every single time. What was her reason/rational for burning thousands of innocent people, including countless children. There is absolutely nothing over these past 7 seasons to suggest she would even be capable of such a horrific action, nothing.

If she was pissed about Cersei's betrayal and the murder of Missandei then it would have been somewhat plausible to have her turn the Red Keep, but not the city AND the red keep itself. If the writers wanted her to burn everything - and have it be believable given her character arc - then you have to build up to that shit. Even having her attack the Red Keep first and then move on the city would have made more sense than this. This is just bad, lazy writing.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Because just like her Dad, she's a Mad Targareyan.  Her advisers, Tyrion, Varys, Melisandre and Joran (who she leaned on the most) are all dead or detached from her (in Tyrion's case by her).l  But they were the people that kept her grounded.  But she has shown signs from the beginning of being blood thirsty.  And the show writers AND GRRM repeatedly warn us that this is the way of the Targareyans.  The comment about the God's flipping a coin every time one is born.  Its a familial pattern.  SO its certainly within the realm of concievability.  

You act like you have a crush on her and are pissed because you feel that the show runners invented this out of the blue.  I'm telling you, with hindsight of what we've seen for the last couple of seasons, this isn't a complete surprise.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

the show writers AND GRRM repeatedly warn us that this is the way of the Targareyans.

The writers have also repeated said how her character is so much different from that of her father and brother, even referring to her as a "good Targareyan". This is a direct quote from one of those "Inside the episode" things:

She's not her father, she's not insane, she's not a sadist, but there's a Targaryen ruthlessness that comes with even the good Targaryens.

Yes she's ruthless with her enemies and those that have wronged her but she has always checked her worst impulses. She has always done her best to spare "the innocents". Have there been subtle hints that she could go crazy? Sure, but until that's all there has been: hints. Those hints should have been built upon with progressively "worse" actions over the course of several episodes. You can't go from "normal" to completely unhinged over two episodes, especially when you don't provide a plausible trigger.

You act like you have a crush on her and are pissed because you feel that the show runners invented this out of the blue.

That's funny, no, but I do get annoyed when I invest so much time in something only to see the creators piss all over it with half assed attempts towards resolution with lazy writing. Even the actors themselves are complaining how bad the writing has been these past 2 seasons. Peter Dinklage, Conleth Hill, Kit Harington, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Emilia Clarke have all made comments to that effect in interviews and articles.

I'm telling you, with hindsight of what we've seen for the last couple of seasons, this isn't a complete surprise.

And I'm telling you that being ruthless with and destroying your enemies / those who have wronged you is one thing, but going full homicidal maniac on innocent people after you've already won is something else entirely. If the showrunners wanted to go that route the writers should have started building towards insanity over the course of an entire season, don't wait until you only have 3 episodes left in the series before making such a change.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

If the showrunners wanted to go that route the writers should have started building towards insanity over the course of an entire season, don't wait until you only have 3 episodes left in the series before making such a change.

You don't think a betrayal by her lover couldn't trigger an Targeryan madness?   It certainly makes sense to me.  I've seen enough batshit crazyness in my life (Friends, not me) that seems to always be triggered by love/sex/both.  This all fits the narrative.  If you can't see that, you're either choosing not to, or are way too invested in her character.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

People just snap. A lot of times it doesn't even take a traumatic event to cause someone to go over the edge. They just wake up one morning and decide to kill a bunch of people. In Dany's case she did have a slow progression. The anger, narcissism, resentment, and arrogant entitlement was always there. How indifferent she was seeing her own brother brutally killed. How she used Dario was another case of truly how heartless she really is. She just wanted his soldiers. Everyone thinks she's a Disney princess who deserves some kind of redemption or to get a happy ending or a 10-episode story arc explaining why she went off the deep end. That is complete crap. Losing Jorah then Messandei the way she did was all that it took to trigger that cray cray. Adding 2 more episodes just to stretch that out wouldn't make it any more believable. 

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

People just snap. A lot of times it doesn't even take a traumatic event to cause someone to go over the edge. They just wake up one morning and decide to kill a bunch of people.

Yes I'm sure a person that couldn't even stomach watching 2 people fight in the fighting pits would totally just snap and be all to happy to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children with dragon fire. Completely plausible.

How indifferent she was seeing her own brother brutally killed.

Her brother had literally just threatened to cut her baby out of her womb and then kill her. Earlier that day he told Dany that he would have happily let all of Karl Drogo's men AND THEIR HORSES rape her if it meant he could sit on the Iron Throne. Dude was a complete sociopath that used to beat and molest her before selling her into a forced marriage that she did not want. There was no love there.

How she used Dario was another case of truly how heartless she really is

Dario was her fuck-buddy, they both got exactly what they wanted out of that relationship. And no, she didn't "just want his soldiers" because if you remember she left Dario and his men behind in Essos to watch over the Free Cities for her.

a 10-episode story arc explaining why she went off the deep end. That is complete crap. Losing Jorah then Messandei the way she did was all that it took to trigger that cray cray. Adding 2 more episodes just to stretch that out wouldn't make it any more believable. 

Remember that time when they wrote a fantastic series about this character’s slow descent into evil without suddenly ignoring previous character development? But yeah you're right, they could have crammed that series into just 2 episodes and achieved the same payoff.

Shandy is not beer

HS
logamaniac's picture

so Jon's "not tonight, i have a headache" is a betrayal? 

or maybe youre talking about her asking him not to tell anyone about his lineage, which he told her outright he had to tell his family and that it didn't change his allegiance to her?  its hard to call it a betrayal if he tells her his plan outright and then follows through with it.  She certainly never commanded it which is something I fail to remember at least, if she did command it, which i found strange considering her position.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

If you can't see that, you're either choosing not to, or are way too invested in her character.

OR maybe I just happen to like good writing/story telling.

For the millionth time, I have no issues with Dany turning into the Mad Queen - so long as it is done in a plausible, believable fashion that does not contradict earlier character growth/development or parts of the story. Her character has always gone to great lengths to protect the innocent, particularly children. To have her throw all of that away and launch a scorched-earth campaign intentionally hunting down and burning innocent people and children is simply not believable given her existing character arc.

Shandy is not beer

HS
SonOfBuckeye's picture

This all fits the narrative.  If you can't see that, you're either choosing not to, or are way too invested in her character.

Dude 1, who is too invested in a tv show to perceive its narrative flaws, argues that Dude 2 is too invested in a character to see that her narrative arc makes sense.

HS
Wargor's picture

It'd be even funnier if a week ago Dude 1 had said, "Because I find this nerdfest absurd on a myriad of levels."

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Jon, blinded by love/lust, continues to make excuses for her.  Dumping her, is what pushed her over the edge.

Uh, what? If he's "blinded by love/lust" why would he dump her?

Having Dany go on murderous rampage because she got dumped makes even less sense considering this was her reaction upon learning that her dragons killed ONE kid:

Again, I have no objection to Dany turning into The Mad Queen (and I think it's quite likely that's where GRRM is going in the books) but you have to do it intelligently and in a way that doesn't insult viewers. Having Dany lose her mind because her nephew wouldn't bang her is NOT intelligent.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Frimmel's picture

She wasn't crying over the child. She was crying about having to lock the dragons up. She didn't shed a tear for that child. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

I wasn't talking about her crying, I was talking about her locking her dragons up. Sorry, I should have clarified that for you. The fact that she is crying about locking up her dragons furthers my point though - shows that it was a painful decision.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

And losing another one was just another traumatic event in a short time.  (On top of Jorah and Missendreh).

BTW, she even said to Tyrion that she viewed Jon's disclosure as a betrayal.  And then he refused her advances?  So now, on top of a disagreement, (which she's not sure is the first step to him usurping her claim), she feels she's lost him as a lover.  She has just had trauma after trauma piled on top of her.  Add to that, her heritage and your stupid graph is total nonsense.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
armyvet83's picture

Wow. This was a pretty intense episode. Agree with most that there was some lazy writing but all in all not bad.

Here is a theory that wasn't brought up. While I feel Dany lost her marbles. I feel she destroyed King's Landing the way she did to completely destroy the wheel she mentioned in the earlier episodes. Maybe in her own way of thinking that King's Landing was the hub that supported all the spokes. So maybe her intent is to move the Iron Throne from KL. Who said the Iron throne had to remain in KL? Just a thought.

Interesting to see how this ends for all characters. What happens between Jon/Dany? Tyrion/Dany? Sansa/Jon? Still much to tie up on the last episode. My big question is: Does it finally come out if Tyrion is a Targaryen? Imagine Dany finding out that Tyrion released Jaime and sentence him to death and gives the command and Tyrion survives? Wow that would be pretty epic.

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Jon has to make a choice...back someone that is crazy and now cruel beyond anyone else on the planet or do the right thing. 

Dany cannot survive. After what she did, her death is required. 

Tyrion is a survivor, like Ayra. He makes it out alive IMO.

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

Agreed, but would not be surprised to see this take another turn just so there is more misdirection.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
RBloodworth's picture

Having watched it again, the episode was extremely well-made, but, the problem with both it, and the entire last two seasons, is that Benioff and Weiss made the decision to cram about 30 episodes of material into 13 episodes.  I understand that both the actors and showrunners wanted to do other things, but HBO was more than happy to give each of the last two seasons the budget for a full 10-episode count, so the decision to rush everything was unnecessary, IMO.  Dany’s heel turn tonight could have been WAY more impactful and tragic if the story had more time to properly build to it.  That said, it would be interesting to see how the fans and critics who are absolutely HATING this turn in the plot (this is by far and away the worst-reviewed episode in the history of the show so far) would have reacted to the Red Wedding if it already hadn’t been spoiled in the books 10 years before.

HS
Frimmel's picture

Dany didn't make a heel turn last night she just finally stepped over the line. She finally got fed up with listening to folks telling her she couldn't do what she wanted to do. Is no one else hearing Dany's inner monologue in this episode?

"I'm the Queen. I know best. If I'd  never listened to all of those dishonest no good betrayers I'd have all my dragons and my BFF and my beta orbiter and my heart wouldn't have been broken by that stupid bastard who thinks he's a real Targaryen. And then they were all worried I might not be a good Queen? Worried I might be mad like my father or weak and useless and stupid like my brother. Well I showed my brother didn't I? I raised and army. I came back to Westeros. They think I'd be a bad ruler? They think I should spare those disloyal people in King's Landing who betrayed my father? I'll show them. I'll show them all."   

And she fulfilled her father's dying wish and burnt down all of the disloyal souls in King's Landing who betrayed her family. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
MJTampa's picture

She finally got fed up with listening to folks telling her she couldn't do what she wanted to do.

Yes, she did...because every bit of strategy and advice that she listened to from everybody else (like Tyrion, a Lannister that, instead of killing, she gave the honor of "Hand" to, or Jon, the man she loves who doesn't want the throne but yet still refused to keep his lineage a secret and now can barely even hug her) completely blew up in her face. If she had done what she originally wanted to do, she would have taken three dragons and wiped out the Red Keep (without destroying the entire city) and taken the Iron Throne. Instead, she lost 2 of her 3 dragons, her best friends, most of her army, the affection of the love of her life, everything. Then she gets to sit at the celebration table after Winterfell and see everyone love Jon and brag about him for riding dragons (I mean, she basically invented riding dragons), while she sits alone and shunned. It's over for her...she has nothing...she knows she can't be a loved queen because everyone wants Jon, and she knows she can't even give up her life-long desire for the Iron Throne and just marry Jon to be his queen because he's not attracted to her anymore due to the revelation about them being related. At this point, all she can do is either disappear completely or become a tyrant queen. She apparently chose the latter. No doubt she flipped out and lost it...not denying that. And no doubt she has always had a "fiery" personality (pun intended). But she had done an admirable job sticking with her ideals about "breaking the wheel" and freeing slaves pretty damn well...until all the sacrifices and tragedies and losses became too much to take. I think it's a tragic story about someone reaching her breaking point due to events out of her control, until she became out of control herself.

HS
Frimmel's picture

Well she could have had better plans. She was not wise in that she never really understood when to take counsel and when to ignore counsel and when to tread a path between the two or find another. She then blamed others for failing her instead of taking it on herself for having made the wrong decision. What does she really know about leading armies? Did she really try to learn? Has Daenerys ever really understood the difference between being in charge and leading? Events aren't out of her control. She's The Queen isn't she? 

Daenerys is a spoiled little girl who didn't get the love she wanted and so decided to tear it all down. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
MJTampa's picture

Well, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. You're asking "What does she really know about leading armies?", and then you're saying "Events aren't out of her control...she's the queen, isn't she?" The fact is, she was smart enough to realize that maybe she didn't know as much as she needed to, being so young and new to war strategies, and she was wise enough to listen to experienced counsel. But after that counsel repeatedly gave advice that was much worse than her original ideas, causing incredible losses on her part, she'd had enough. 

Again, she shouldn't have "lost it" so badly at the end, but that's the whole point of "losing it"...you're out of control. To ignore the multitude of reasons she became out of control and just call her "spoiled" is a pretty shallow look at 8 seasons of character development for her. 

PS...not my downvote, by the way

HS
Frimmel's picture

Events were out of Dany's control because Daenerys didn't do her due diligence to make sure events were in her control. When she takes the advice of counsel then it is on her to make that plan a reality, to make that happen, to have a plan for if that goes wrong, and to shoulder the burden for the results both good and bad. 

She didn't get the boy she wanted or any of the love she wanted and so she burnt it all down. They didn't immediately recognize her as savior of King's Landing from Cersei so she put them to the flames. The citizens of King's Landing didn't offer their love freely and she hurt them for it. She thinks devotion is hers to demand. Seeems spoiled to me.   

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

I want to buy her a cup of coffee.

It can be Starbucks, I don't care.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

DANY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Too soon?

Shandy is not beer

HS
BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

I'm assuming Jon has to kill Dany next episode right? He was brought back to life and he hasn't really served his purpose, yet. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Needed to sleep on it before diving back in.

Hey, I'm good. I was just hoping Dany and Drogon wouldn't go down quickly...wasn't expecting all that.

Cleagane Bowl lived up to the hype. The Lannisters was underwhelming, but it is what it is.

Euron Greyjoy was who he was, thanks for stopping by dude.

Tyrion and Jon have some things to think about, while it looks like Arya is poised to take down the new threat (that is Daenarys the Insane).

Nothing ends on a good note, otherwise it wouldn't end. Hoping next week lies somewhere neatly between Seinfeld and the Sopranos.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

GoT episodes already end like the Sopranos finale. Sudden black screen. Show over lol.

Still think Arya's bow and arrow practice was for a reason.

If they do kill Dany I really wonder what Drogon and the surviving Unsullied and Dothraki do. Do they avenger her? Do they walk away?

Jon vs. Greyworm deathmatch is almost assured.

Tyrion is toast

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
Hovenaut's picture

I'm not trying to overthink it, but maybe Dany's destiny had to be bloodthirsty all along...and forget the genes, that girl has had a tough life.

Thinking the Unsullied and Dothraki fight until the end...it's all they know.

Also agree on Jon vs Greyworm, and Tyrion had better get some serious distance from Dany.

HS
GareBear's picture

think Dany would even realize what Tyrion did? Jaimie is dead, so is Cersie... though maybe she’s just bloodthirsty enough to not care.

Michigan sucks

HS
JohnnyKozmo's picture

He’s dead but no where in camp.  She doesn’t know he’s dead.  

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

HS
Frimmel's picture

I don't see us getting a M*A*S*H or Star Trek:The Next Generation ending out of this next week. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Probably not, but I can't complain - GOT still will rank high on my list.

It'll be good to get back to the books (they've been collecting dust on my night stand for far too long).

HS
Frimmel's picture

I think we'll get a real release date for the next book after this all wraps up. If I were a betting man I'd wager on it being here in time for Christmas. I think it did take longer than they thought but they didn't want to release it and spoil things or create more unfavorable comparisons as the show wraps up. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if the last two books came rather on top of one another by comparison to what has come thus far. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
saintstephen11's picture

I predict that the fat man dies before the 7th book is finished. 

HS
Wargor's picture

From the scenes from next week, where'd all those dothraki come from?  I saw a hell of a lot of flaming swords extinguished two weeks ago.  I know there were some survivors, but seems like there are too many left in that brief scene.

HS
MiamiBuckeye's picture

I seem to recall it being said that Dany had an army of about 100000 Dothraki before the Battle of Winterfell. It's entirely possible we only saw half of them at Winterfell and the rest survived to be present at King's Landing. 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

From the scenes from next week, where'd all those dothraki come from?

Same with the Unsullied. For an army with no genitals, they're multiplying at an alarming rate:

Shandy is not beer

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

So the Big Bear has to be in next week's episode right?  Or did I miss him already?

HS
Brandon26841's picture

He was in the background of episode 3 for about .5 seconds according to him. 

HS
DeacBuck's picture

No one is mentioning how much Missandei's death led to what happened last night. Her last word(s) were fulfilled.

It's going to be really brutal if Arya is able to kill Drogon with a regular arrow through the eye, but I could definitely see that happening. 

Go Bucks, Deacs, Panthers, Braves

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Re: Arya and her (likely) coming fight with Dany/Drogon...

Maybe I missed it/didn't pay full enough attention, but did we ever really see the weapon she asked Gendry to build for her? I thought she was looking for a spear-like weapon?

If so, seems like she might want to employ that now.

I really hope that if Dany does perish, that Drogon survives and flies away to live freely.

Also holding out hope for one last appearance by Ghost and Nymeria.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Arya had that weapon when she fought the Army of the Dead. She was doing all those cool moves with it. It got broken in the battle and she lost it IIRC.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Yep, that's right...I lost it all in the dark...

She's in the mix (again), no matter what weapon she rolls with.

HS
Ahh Saturday's picture

No way Drogon survives. Arya gets him through the eye with an arrow, though she might not survive the fight. Could be a little foreshadowing with  Lil Lady Mormont and the way she went out taking down the giant.

Think Jon takes out Dany, probably with his dying breath having been mortally wounded fighting through Grey Worm.

Tyrion is a Targareyan. Sansa is the Stark in Winterfell. Ice and Fire come together in the end to unify Westeros.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

No way Drogon survives.

Bran wargs into Drogon and eats Dany

Shandy is not beer

HS
GareBear's picture

Another good point - what good has Bran done? I keep forgetting he’s been there. 

Michigan sucks

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

what good has Bran done? I keep forgetting he’s been there. 

If the spoilers are to believed - and they have all verified thus far - it will be impossible to forget about Bran after next week.

Apparently the Night King was only trying to warn us:

Shandy is not beer

HS
BGSUBuckeye08's picture

How bout don't post anything related to alleged spoilers or leaks. That's a pretty dick move. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

If you consider "mentioning that a main character will be memorable in the series finale" to be a spoiler then I don't know what to tell you. If you're that sensitive maybe you shouldn't even open these threads.

The thread description even says it's a discussion about spoilers.

Shandy is not beer

HS
MiamiBuckeye's picture

If Tyrion was a Targareyan it'd have come out by now. It's a neat fan theory but it's entirely unsupported by the show's canon. 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Disagree that its totally unsupported by the show's cannon.  There have been things said and done that are very subtle that indicate the possibility.  I'm not saying its definitely the case, but if it does pan out that way, we'll all go back to those incidents and say, "See, this was a foreshadowing."  Theories and interpretations are fun and all; but just watching the episode unfold and seeing where it goes is fun too.  Don't be so quick to try and stay ahead of the story.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Disagree that its totally unsupported by the show's cannon

This guy sets up that particular theory pretty well and then explains why it is extremely unlikely that Tyrion is a Targaryen.

TL;DR version: that's not GRRM's style, it goes against how he develops his characters. While it would explain why Tywin hates Tyrion so much, it does so at the cost of totally undercutting and cheapening their relationship.

Shandy is not beer

HS
logamaniac's picture

This season feels like a show that got cancelled mid season and is doing a quick albeit half assed scripting job of sewing up a finale. 

How about that amazing golden company or the iron bank that paid for them?  How’s essos?  How’s kinvara?  Greyworm mad at some random dude for following orders and surrendering?  White horse with some blood on it but otherwise unharmed for Arya?

HS
CTBuckeyeFan's picture

HBO is great at creating hit shows, but its terrible at wrapping them up.  Just ask Tony Soprano, Vincent Chase, Sookie Stackhouse or Kenny Powers.

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Add Boardwalk Empire into that also. Great show with a poor ending. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
MiamiBuckeye's picture

Disagreed, somewhat, on the ending of Boardwalk Empire. 

While it was incredibly disappointing that they cut the show short (we skipped past Arnold Rothstein's death, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, the Atlantic City Conference, and a bunch of other momentous moments in Gangland/prohibition history), the actual ending works perfectly. Nucky's original sin (selling out the girl who looked to him as a guardian in exchange for the power he desperately craved) comes back to do him in. That's what Aristotle calls "unexpected but inevitable." 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Like you said...it felt rushed. Left out quite a bit of good stuff. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
UFest57's picture

To be fair, Showtime really botched Dexter, too. 

HS
BGSUBuckeye08's picture

Dexter had by far the worst ending to a otherwise phenomenal show that I can think of. Such a disappointment. 

HS
BTBuckeye's picture

Soprano's was a great ending. Nobody got it that fateful Sunday night, but in the aftermath and after much analysis, it was perfect imo. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

How about that amazing golden company

Samwell Tarly killed more people than the Golden Company

Shandy is not beer

HS
BGSUBuckeye08's picture

I am guessing that Dany's descent in to madness and destruction is exactly the ending we were headed for the whole time and is the same ending that GRRM will use. There was a meeting a few years ago where GRRM gave D&D 3 "holy shit" moments. Number 1 was Stannis burning Shireen alive, #2 was "hold the door", and #3 was said to happen at the very end. It had to be Dany burning KL to the ground. Though I'm sure GRRM will do a hell of a lot better job documenting and explaining this downward spiral. It seems like D&D are giving us the cliff notes and expecting us to fill everything else in which is disappointing for a show of this caliber. 

HS
KBonay's picture

Couldn't agree more.  Everyone bitching about how HBO/writers came to this ending and I think we are all going to find out it was GRRM's plan this whole time.  Mad Queen angle is right in his wheelhouse.  

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

You nailed it

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
logamaniac's picture

I don’t think most people are upset with the results but the journey to get there.  

It’s like if you’ve been watching an game on TV and the cable goes out before the final period and comes back on to Al Michaels asking if you believe in miracles.  

HS
Frimmel's picture

Or there's a bigger one to come next week. A Targaryen child of a Stark killing a Targaryen to end the series of events started by a Targaryen kidnapping a Stark. Jon killing Daenerys would be pretty big if you hadn't watched last night's episode or even written it yet. 

The show has to give us The Cliff's Notes version since they've dropped entire threads of the story in Victarion and his dragon horn, The Dorne conspiracy to bring back the Targaryens, the fake Aegon, the trials of Cersei and Margery Tyrell, Lady Stoneheart and Arianne and all the warging of Jon and Arya.  

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
I'm Ron Burgundy's picture

Dany's descent into madness will definitely be easier for GRRM to build to and "explain" in book form.  Not defending the show runners here, they just have a tougher job to do when it comes to characters frame of mind.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Not defending the show runners here, they just have a tougher job to do when it comes to characters frame of mind. 

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Listening to them talk you can tell that they are trying very hard to weave an intricate story. People may be complaining about the lack of GRRM source material affecting things but I have loved the post GRRM-book story so far. I think most nitpicking is precisely that. If I have a complaint, it's that they might've been better off stretching this into 8 episodes. But looking at what they have spent on this season and the sheer scale of it, I think spending $100M for a full 10 episodes in epic scale mightve put HBO out of business. This is a TV show after all.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Listening to them talk you can tell that they are trying very hard to weave an intricate story.

More like they are trying very hard to form complete sentences. They have given made of the most asinine, illogical explanations in their "Inside The Episode" segments. It's not at all unusual to hear them to directly contradict parts of an episode.

This is a TV show after all.

Still doesn't excuse lazy writing

Shandy is not beer

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Shandy is not beer

HS
BGSUBuckeye08's picture

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-has-finished-the-/1100-6466841/

Interesting article here that basically says the actor who played Barristan Selmy recently said that his understanding is the GRRM has already completed BOTH Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring but came to an agreement with D&D not to release them until after the show is over. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Such an agreement wouldn't make any sense, why would HBO care (at this point) when he releases his books? If anything they'd want them released during this season, or (preferably) prior to the season to get more people talking about GOT.

Shandy is not beer

HS
KBonay's picture

My two biggest questions

  1. Where is the Bosa cameo? Apparently, Aaron Rodgers was in last nights episode. 
  2. How did that many extras keep the 'Mad Queen' under wraps?
HS
OSU_Hammy's picture

Bosa was in the battle of Winterfell episode as a soldier you could barely see. It was even less noticable than Aaron Rodgers.

Buckeye Til I Die

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Bosa tweeted that you could see his nose lol

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
BTBuckeye's picture

Thought that episode was pretty nuts. Loved it. But I just watch the show and tend not to pick every detail apart. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Isn't there a version of Sim City where you can have your city destroyed by Godzilla?

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I just wanted Cersei to suffer a bit more. I wanted her to die at the hands of a Stark for all the shit she put that family through. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

I wanted her to get eaten by Ghost for killing Sansa's wolf in Season 1

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Shandy is not beer

HS
EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Cersei's suffering is not having the Iron Throne in the end. Not enough suffering for us, perhaps, but plenty for her. She wasn't crying for Jamie at the end. 

HS
KnuckIfYouBuck's picture

Anyone have any ideas on what the risk Varys's little bird was taking for him?

Maybe we will figure out next episode, but someone suggested that he was trying to have her poison Dany. They pointed out the fact that the little bird said that Dany still wasn't eating. I think that is kind of a stretch and that line was to show the severity of Dany's grief/ depression.

Another person suggested that the little girl who we saw several clips of her and her mother trying to get into the Red Keep was the little bird . Apparently, she was supposed to deliver an important message to someone.  I'm not sure about that one either, aren't the little birds orphans?

"Life's a garden, dig it." -Joe Dirt

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

The little girl was poisoning Dany's food because Varys was trying to assassinate Dany so Jon could become king. His note writing was a last resort to get the news out about who Jon really is, as a way to destabilize Dany. Varys knew he was toast.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
Frimmel's picture

As a kitchen girl whenever she is not in the kitchen she likely draws some attention to herself. No one minds too much because she is a child. For her though she knows she is doing something that would make folks mad at her or get her into trouble so she is hyper-conscious of being conspicuous or under suspicion. Like the difference between your vigilance on the road regarding LEOs when speeding versus not speeding. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Brandon26841's picture

I thought it was hinted at pretty heavily that he was trying to have Daenerys poisoned. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

the little bird said that Dany still wasn't eating

I smell a Snickers commercial:

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Emelia Clarke did play that scene really well. You could just see the apocalypse was coming.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

The poisoning theory fits the dialogue AND the plot from Varys' point of view.  I think I'll buy it.  At least it dooes both fit the plot and the dialogue, unlike some of the other cockamamie fan theories.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Was that really a theory? Seemed like a deliberate implication to me, otherwise I'm not sure why Varys would have said "we'll try again at dinner". At the end of the previous season he essentially told Tyrion that he's going to work to remove/eliminate her.

Shandy is not beer

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

At the end of the previous season...

Episode, not season. Stupid 10min edit window.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Yeah, its only a theory because its inferred.  It was never stated factually within the story.  You don't know what Varys planned.  You only know that he lost faith in her and wants Jon Snow to make his claim.  But you don't KNOW how he planned to accomplish that.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I could see some sort of trial by combat where Jon has to champion Sansa and Grey Worm Dany...much like Tyrion's trial in previous seasons. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
saintstephen11's picture

Don't be surprised if the story ends with Dany on the Iron Throne. This could be the story of how the Targs lost and won the throne.  It doesn't have to have the happy ending everyone is hoping for. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

I'm with this. As weird as it's closing, her surviving and gaining the throne seems to be the easiest ending based on what we're left with.

So much for that better world Tyrion hoped for.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Korg to the people of Kings Landing

Shandy is not beer

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Really would have been a better thing to break this into two seasons. One major battle per. That way it would not have felt rushed as well as overkill with the battles. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

The Battle of Winterfell (and the run-up to) should have been last season, then they could have dedicated an season to Dany vs Cersei

Shandy is not beer

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Meme checks out...

Shandy is not beer

HS
Rocket Man's picture

Offtopicland. Remember: no politics, religion, or hot-button social issues.

Does this mean there is to be no discussion of Melisandre, Thoros of Myr, or weird trees with bloody faces carved into them?

Varys: I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege. 
Tyrion: A wedding. 
Varys: Exactly.

HS
CALPOPPY's picture

I could always start ranting about conspiracy theorists and measles.

But that probably wouldn’t be the best idea.

Memento mori

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Speaking of conspiracies:

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

That's a pretty large tinfoil hat. One that Drogon wouldnt be able to wear.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
Crumb's picture

Quad, you've been spot on in most if not all of your takes and posts. +1 sir! 

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
McGrind's picture

Time for Pod to get knighted. 

Justice delayed is justice denied....#FTP

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

The last one is the best

Shandy is not beer

HS
Zimmy07's picture

Looks at Captain America,  Looks at Puerto Rican flag...  Captain America is REALLY Captain Puerto Rico!   (This is the right genre?).

HS
Wargor's picture

Puerto Rico really is America.  We got it fair and square as spoils of war.  And we didn't have to burn San Jaun to the ground either, despite our 7 dead in taking the island away from the Tyrells Spanish.  

HS
Bucktater's picture

Probably been covered elsewhere but can someone tell me why Bran can't just 'warg' into the dragon and set things right?  Seems pretty simple.

If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles. - D.Larson

HS
Wargor's picture

My theory on Bran is that he's so meta at this point that interfering in human politics is largely beneath him.  Certainly gives an out for any questions like yours and others on why he isn't being used to warg or just have great recon.  Or perhaps dragons are too strong willed to warg.  Hodor is the only human we've seen him warg, and he was mentally damaged.  

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Probably been covered elsewhere but can someone tell me why Bran can't just 'warg' into the dragon and set things right?  Seems pretty simple.

Not sure how Drogon could be used to set things right at this point - I doubt he has the requisite construction skills to rebuild/undo all of the damage he caused, nor magical healing abilities to bring people back to life.

Shandy is not beer

HS
Wargor's picture

When your only tool is a dragon, all your problems start to look like defenseless cities.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

If Bran were going to do that he would've done it before she torched KL, not after. Dragons in this universe are sentient, intelligent, clever beings, not animals. They think and they communicate with one another. Bran likely cant warg strong-minded creatures, much like how the Jedi cant mind trick strong-willed individuals.

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
hetuck's picture

I keep going back to Varys putting his rings in the cup before they arrest him. What was the point? Why show it? I think Tyrion finds them & uses the poison to kill Dany. Then Jon, being a Targ, can fly Drogon back to Winterfell, now the capitol of the Seven Kingdoms. Reunites with his family and Ghost. The end. 

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

HS
logamaniac's picture

although it doesn't make any sense, I think it was to show he was preparing to be executed.  Kind of like what al Pacino did in donnie brasco which made sense because he was leaving all of his identifying materials and anything of value for his wife, knowing he'd never be seen again.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Watch the ending of Donnie Brasco. Al Pacino knows he's about to be whacked because he harbored an undercover FBI agent. The first thing he does is take off his rings right before it happens.

Edit: You beat me to the punch Logan 

"You're the patron saint of the totally effed" - Hot Tub Time Machine

HS
BBQ_Fan's picture

although it doesn't make any sense

Is this the TL;DR for Season 8?

HS
CALPOPPY's picture

Barf, are you just trying to get Quad to comment on this further?

;-{)}

Memento mori

HS
saintstephen11's picture

I loved that she torched KL. I still hope she sits on the throne when all is said and done.  Tyrion would be the only other one that would be acceptable. Jon, Bran, Sansa, Gendry would all be bad conclusions to the show.

HS
Crumb's picture

Is anyone else surprised that Tyrion and Varys didn't even try to tell Jon. 'Hey take one for the team and marry her, she's really on the brink with all of her friends dead, she needs someone to care!' It seems like that would have been much more sensible than just doing crap that's going to push her even closer to if not off the edge. Tyrion barely mentions joint rule and then it's completely forgotten about. I wonder if they had done a 10 episode season if we could have seen that attempt to play out a little more. Wouldn't have made things seems so abrupt and semi out of left field. 

HS