Game of Thrones -- Season 8 -- Part 4 -- Aired Episode and Book Spoiler Discussion

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Frimmel's picture

If a mod can close out The Long Night of our episode three thread, we'll see if we can keep pace with last week. See you in a bit Buckeyes. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Good to go.

Let's do this.

Hindsight is, and in, 2020

There are times where the worst thing that can be spread is misinformation

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Aftermath and set up for Episode 5. We are getting closer. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Frimmel's picture

I'm anticipating petty squabbling myself. Exposition will be expositiony. Though the episode is supposed to clock in at an hour twenty minutes. We might get something good. Euron sinking Yara and the fate of the Iron Islands maybe? 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Good guess on Euron. I knew the ballista/scorpion would come into play again.

The scene with Bronn played out about as expected.

I expect Varys to die at Dany's command, and that will be what turns Tyrion from her.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Frimmel's picture

Varys. For not having any junk the dude sure has some stones. 

Bronn playing both ends against the middle. 

I don't think I was really calling this outcome for something with Euron. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
BuckeyeChief's picture

Somebody rockin knockin the boots!!!

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Damn Lannister... you're a smoothie.

Hindsight is, and in, 2020

There are times where the worst thing that can be spread is misinformation

HS
Hovenaut's picture

Damn.

Hindsight is, and in, 2020

There are times where the worst thing that can be spread is misinformation

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Shit. Is. About. To. Hit. The. Fan.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Well ok. Cersei fired both first shots. Jamie setting himself up to either kill her or be used  by Ayra to kill Cersei. Still think it will be Jamie in a moment of choice. 

Hound v Mountain coming. 

Wildlings going to come south for the fight. 

Greyjoy needs to die by the hands of Yara. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

Was not expecting it to go down like that.

Dany's eyes sure looked a little green at the end.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Yep...always felt like when Ayra said she going to the kill the queen could be Dany....Dany is turning into her father. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

Jamie kills Cersei and Arya kills Dany after becoming the mad queen. Would be a decent way to end it.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Interesting move by Cersei. She went full Ramsey and got into Dany's head something fierce.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

But it also reinforced she is THE evil on the show. Not the Night King. It has always been Cersei. 

Dany turning into the Mad Queen. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

She knew it would make Drogon vulnerable. Dany is too emotional to not burn it all after seeing her best friend beheaded.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Frimmel's picture

Cersei wants to see it all burn as long as she's Queen of The Ashes. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Yep. She enjoys it. Just like when she blew up the sept. If she cannot have the throne or KL she will make sure there is nothing left for anyone to have. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Frimmel's picture

He certainly didn't waste to much time moving on though. Tyrion topping off his drink was pretty funny. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
buckeyeboy31's picture

He will kill Jamie when it’s all over 

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

He upgraded 

2x account suspension survivor 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

At least Jon can honestly tell Dany that he wasn't the one to tell Arya and Sansa. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Frimmel's picture

He told Bran to tell. I'm not sure he can loophole out of that. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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Jumar's picture

He's too much like Ned to say anything but the truth.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Bucknut20's picture

My favorite episode so far this season.

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BBQ_Fan's picture

Wouldn't it be pretty easy to use Drogon at night to flame all the ships and ballistas?

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Jumar's picture

That's a good point. Hard to shoot at something you can't see. They might be able to have enough fires in the city to keep it dimly lit at night though.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
Sanantonefan's picture

How about flying high and coming on a more vertical path above the launch angles of the weapons?

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Yara coming for that Euron fleet of ships. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Frimmel's picture

So that was not expositiony at all. 

First off I was totally wrong about Ghost having bit the dust. Kudos to everyone who spotted him in the preview. I didn't. I hope he enjoys his retirement in the North. 

Second. I guess I got to put Gendry on the board now that he's lord of Storm's End. Didn't see that coming. The Hound setting him right was pretty funny.

You're on a dragon flying cover on your fleet and you don't notice what's left of the Iron Fleet sailing up on your anchorage? Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Plot first I guess.  

Dany being as all mad queen as she was was somewhat expected but I didn't think it would go that far.

Sansa was right. You got half an army barely standing you don't march them to King's Landing without some down time. 

Sansa blabbed way quicker than I though she would. 

Jaimie. Just when I thought he was getting his head out of his ass. He'd better put Cersei in the ground or be instrumental in putting someone in position to put Cersei in the ground. 

Daenerys and Cersei deserve each other. 

Missandei didn't deserve that. 

Vomiting is celebrating! 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Also think we see the free folk join the battle. Sansa working behind the scenes..prolly with Varys. 

Jamie has to kill Cersei like you said. If not his entire story arc was bullshit. 

Ayra going to kill Dany...just feel like that is the "green" eyes...

I honestly think Sansa could end up on the throne. The whole speech with the Hound showed how she knows how to play the game...

Grey Worm going to HAM...Can't wait to see the Hound v Mountain. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

Sansa on the throne might be best at this point. Let Jon rule the north, go back to Castle Black or go live with Tormund. He is tired of the fighting and wants no part of politics.

If Sansa takes the throne, does she officially marry Tyrion? 

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I think so. Think the foreshadowing of a married couple ruling could come into play with those 2 not Jon and Dany. 

Jon and Dany are done. She has lost her damn mind. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

It was over once she gave the ultimatum.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Frimmel's picture

I had that thought as well. She flipped Varys in the war council when she came down on Sansa for a very sensible suggestion. Jon Snow didn't handle that very well. He could have agreed with Sansa while still saying he'd keep his word to fight. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Jumar's picture

Bran showed Jon the crazy/hot scale. He knows she will go full crazy with any disagreement.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Sansa wants nothing to do with King's Landing.  She just as soon burn the Twins to the ground so no one can ever cross the river and come north again.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Jumar's picture

Agreed, but she is playing the game of thrones now. She is trying to overthrow Dany by telling Tyrion who Jon really is.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

She learned from the best...Littlefinger 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

How about the Wildings fight for Jon Snow against Dany?  If she goes all Mad Queed, JS COULD turn on her.  OR she turns on him first in her madness.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Frimmel's picture

Tormund and the Wildings went home. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I would be shocked if we don't see Tormund show up in KL to fight along side Jon. They way he went on and on about Jon to me was just foreshadowing that he was going to eventually show up. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
Jumar's picture

Tormund had to come back to take Jamie's place with Brienne.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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BBQ_Fan's picture

Tormund and the Wildings went home. 

That seemed a little fast. I'm not sure we've seen the last of the Wildlings. Then again, they're rushing so much with so little time left.

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Tormund and the Wildings went home. 

No, Jon Snow left.  We never saw them leave.  We heard Tormund SAY they were going home; but that was in the context of Jon Snow leaving with his army for King's Landing.  Nothing says the Wildings can't change their mind.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Frimmel's picture

Point conceded on Tormund just saying they were going home. Not seeing them changing their mind though. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

We heard Tormund SAY they were going home

Correct, he said they'll leave to go north of the wall (through Castle Black) once the winter storms end.

Shandy is not beer

HS
elitesmithie's picture

Good point. They are going to leave but not until after the storms. Could be help if needed?

HS
CincyBuck's picture

You're on a dragon flying cover on your fleet and you don't notice what's left of the Iron Fleet sailing up on your anchorage? Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Plot first I guess.

Seriously.  Maybe I'm thinking about this with considerations that are too realistic.  But how do multiple ships get an angle to shoot ballista bolts at a dragon, yet you don't see the frigging fleet beforehand?  Pretty absurd...

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Wargor's picture

We always talk about the glories of plot armor, but don't discount the Vorpal Plot Ballista of Death +1, +3 vs. Dragons.  

Of course, while we're on the subject, how'd the Targarians get so far with Dragons all those years ago when they are so easy to kill?  Also kind of strange that everyone in Essos was too dim to come up with giant crossbows

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saintstephen11's picture

in the books, they are almost impossible to kill. They took liberties on the show.

HS
CincyBuck's picture

I don't read the books.  So I can't speak to that fact.

But yeah, definitely taking liberties.  First and foremost, Dani's tactics defy any semblance of common sense.  Even then, though I didn't assume them to be immortal, I thought each dragon could easily kill thousands before any risk of defeat.  Turns out, hitting a dragon with a ballista bolt is equivalent to an 80MPH fastball right down Broadway in the MLB.  Euron and his team couldn't miss.

Makes you wonder how the last dragon will really help that much, given the number of turrets currently on King's Landing's walls.  Taking down one dragon should be easy with that many.  Of course, the show's writers kind of do whatever they want at this point, with no regard to whether it makes any sense. 

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Wargor's picture

Yep.  Someone else mentioned this, but a night attack with hit and run tactics would be brutal if you have the time.  Dive bomb the turrets and anything else for 30 seconds and then be off till the next night or the night after that.

Not to mention how effective a strafing run of dragon fire would be against a wall preparing to defend against scaling.  All those archers and soldiers up there ready to defend against a charging mass instantly engulfed in flame.  By the time the flames are dying down the invaders are halfway up the ladder.  

"Anyone who has to fight, even with the most modern weapons, against an enemy in complete command of the air, fights like a savage against modern European troops, under the same handicaps and with the same chances of success." - E. Rommel

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Of course, the show's writers kind of do whatever they want at this point, with no regard to whether it makes any sense. 

I'm fully expecting Gendry to make some special heavy-duty dragon armor for Drogon next week

Shandy is not beer

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

QuadCities, that's the only thing to me that would explain Euron's shocked look in the preview for the next episode. The other 2 dragons arent magically coming back to life. They may try to turn Drogon into an F-16 LOL

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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CincyBuck's picture

I'm fully expecting Gendry to make some special heavy-duty dragon armor for Drogon next week

Damnit.  I could definitely see that.

But hey, maybe it'll be made out of dragon glass.  Then the armor will have a nice "For Us, By Us" (for dragons) thing going on.  

HS
TobyMagic's picture

I'm the all aboard the Jamie takes out Cersei, and Arya takes out Dany.. seemed a lot of emphasis on their green eyes tonight.  All we know is Arya is killing someone important with green eyes (has to be one of those two), and Cersei is getting strangled by her 'little' brother..

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Arya - "I'm not a lady."

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

Whomever Ayra kills is dying by the crossbow or bow and arrow. She been working on that all season. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
stubbzzz's picture

According to Tom Jones,  she’s a lady.  “Whoa Whoa Whoa...”.    

Haha....  aaaaaaaaaahhhhhh....                      sorry.   

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I am on the fence if Jon survives or not.

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Gendry, Last Man Standing, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Jumar's picture

Even if he does survive he goes north. He won't take the throne.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Frimmel's picture

He's not going to have a choice. Dany wasn't all there this week but she was right about the thing taking on a life of its own. Varys said the same thing. The news made him do a 180 before Tyrion finished the story. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Jumar's picture

He gave his life for the Nights Watch and reluctantly became king of the north. I don't think he does it again.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
Frimmel's picture

My mojo for how this whole thing is going to play out is feeling pretty much out the window. He certainly doesn't want to be King. But he is an honorable man and if honor doesn't provide him a way out he'll take the crown. He told Sansa and Arya because that was an honorable way out. But he's not very bright and didn't listen to her about the thing taking on a life of its own. 

Does anyone have to sit on the throne? 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
Jumar's picture

Dany said she was going to break the wheel. Maybe no throne but a 7 kingdoms council instead.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
stubbzzz's picture

With Lord Bron of Highgarden, acting as treasurer.  

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Giving away your dog is a bad omen... in any context.

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KBonay's picture

More questions than answers.  Loading up for E5

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KBonay's picture
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stubbzzz's picture

At first I thought Dany wanting the Throne too much, and all the tension with her was just a misdirection by the writers....    I just assumed like Tyrion said, they get married, rule together... problem solved.  I still hope that’s what happens and she eventually snaps out of it.  

But with each passing episode this season I’m less and less sure if Dany is even going to survive.   I think back to what Daario once said to her... “You’re a conqueror, not a ruler”  I wonder if that was foreshadowing?   I guess we’ll find out next week!  

R.I.P.   Missandei.   That was a beautiful head that got chopped off tonight. 

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KBonay's picture

Yes, she deserves a a tribute.

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OSU_Hammy's picture

People can say what they want but she is hands down the best looking girl to be in the show. I would take an arrow or two for her.

Buckeye Til I Die

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Jumar's picture

You're not wrong.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

 I think back to what Daario once said to her... “You’re a conqueror, not a ruler”  I wonder if that was foreshadowing?   I guess we’ll find out next week!

Yes, it was.  Have brought up that quote several times this season.

Varys will turn on Daenarys, and will die for it. Melisandre's final prophecy will be fulfilled. "You will die in this country, just like me."

Grey Worm and Missandei making plans before e battle of Winterfell was a bad sign. One of them was bound to die.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
aboynamedtracy's picture

So as a rule, I don't comment on threads about which I don't care. For example, I don't give a care about baseball and therefore don't read or comment in those threads. I can't stand ppl who like to pop into soccer threads to say the sport sucks.

With that in mind, this is the last GoT thread I'll post in. Man, I loved the first 4 seasons, and still quite enjoyed 5 & 6. I thought 7 was the weakest, but figured it was a bit rushed and might make season 8 all that more amazing by comparison. Well, fuck me... this has turned into mindless tripe and I'm soooo fucking out. As The Throne Turns ain't my bag.

Ok, done bitching, and good on you if you're still enjoying it. See you in a football thread.

HS
IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Thanks for your amazing contribution.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

HS
Hanawi_'s picture

Haha. Once that got away from the books, it's been much weaker. I particularly don't like the direction that they've taken Varys and Tyrion. But I still enjoy watching and talking about it.

HS
saintstephen11's picture

If Martin ever gets off his fat ass and finishes the books they will look nothing like the show.  

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KBonay's picture

I am guessing the books are (nearly) done.  I am sure he's under contract with HBO not to release anything until the show wraps up.

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Hanawi_'s picture

That's my thought as well. Think he'll drop the next book pretty quickly after the show ends.

HS
cpfanatik77's picture

Yeah, he tweeted out a headshot a few weeks ago. I'm betting it will be out sometime in late summer/early fall.

HS
elitesmithie's picture

So much for the Golden company turning on Cersei.

Also, percentage that Dragon 2 survived and that is what Euron is freaking out about in the "next week preview"?

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stubbzzz's picture

Dude.   Pretty sure that dragon dead.  

Buuuuuut that would be sick if it resurrected.  It is Jon Snow’s Dragon, after all.    Not likely, but it would be pretty bad ass.   I hope you’re onto something there.  

HS
Crumb's picture

I'm with you. That would be a fun fan theory if it came true and would really mess with Euron (Coming up out of the sea, "What's dead may never die, etc.) but I don't see it happening. Sometimes fan theories are more fun than the thing that actually happens. Like the one I saw about Jaqen H'gar being Rhagaer Targaryen. Good times. 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Show runners said in Behind the Game of Thrones that the dragon is dead.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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mizzer's picture

Nah, Varys connects with them after his talk with Tyrion.  They’ll join Jon outside the city to support Jon’s original desire: blockade the city until the people turn on Cercei.  Ironically, it is this very thing that causes Dany to lose her mind (don’t know how that will play out).  The chaos in King’s Landing is cover for the Jaime, Arya, and Hound story arcs inside the city.

HS
Hanawi_'s picture

They've now killed the 3 hottest women on the show. Lame.

I'm rooting for Dany. Eff the rest of them. Burn it down. She could have been on the throne already if she didn't go North. Also, it would be a copout for Dany to be the green eyes that Arya kills since she has violet eyes like all the Targs in the book.

Sansa has basically become Littlefinger at this point. I hope she dies next episode.

HS
Crumb's picture

Yeah, Dany seems to be getting crapped on by a lot of people here. I mean is she had decided to take KL first like she wanted, she'd still have all her dragons and more of her army than she has now. She sacrificed a ton for everyone else but they seem rather like a bunch of ingrates. 

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GareBear's picture

UV for ya, though I disagree. She ignored some sensible advice from Tyrion and Sansa that could have prevented some losses. Likewise, she also seeks not to care at all about citizen deaths in the battle for KL... 

... then who knows. We haven’t seen or heard anything about this final battle for KL. So, something makes me think there actually won’t be a battle...

Michigan sucks

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Hanawi_'s picture

They didn't want to burn the citizens, so instead they planned to starve them all? Dumb. Sansa provided zero advice that would have helped prevent the loss of the dragon and Missandei. Tyrion hasn't provided good advice since the show deviated from the books. And he's too close to Cersei. 

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GareBear's picture

You don’t think holding off and allowing time to rest the troops and scheme might have given them the opportunity to sniff out an ambush?

Michigan sucks

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Crumb's picture

That's a good point but the counter point provided that the longer they leave Cersei unchecked the more dug in and difficult to dislodge she'll be. It's quite a catch 22. That being said the death of Rhaegal, while heartbreaking and driving emotions, made no other sense whatsoever. 

HS
GareBear's picture

That's fair. I suppose that as a common plebe, myself I just wanted the poor soldiers to have some rest before heading south. 

Then again, there are only 2 episodes left, so ain't nobody getting any rest here :)

Michigan sucks

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Crumb's picture

Yeah, and even they may rather attack a weaker town while tired than a strong one while well rested. Either way this season is going by fast and it's taking names along the way!

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GareBear's picture

True! Honestly, was somewhat afraid for Jon Snow in close quarters with Dany... Not sure why, but I just couldn't help feeling like she had a dagger up her sleeve.. an unreasonable fear, I know... But hey. 

Michigan sucks

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Hanawi_'s picture

Not really. They could have just built twice as many scorpions in that time. Theoretically, Dany flying around on Drogon should have been able to sniff out the ambush anyway. Frankly, that whole scene was pretty weak. Why go to Dragonstone to begin with? It's right by King's Landing. Could have gone to the Vale, Dorne, or Iron Islands instead. All are held by allies. How did they manage to shoot a dragon with three perfect shots while they couldn't see the ships? Similar to the Gendry superspeed from season 7. They're trying to cram too much into too few episodes and it makes for poor writing. Or else trying to even the odds so it seems like a fairer fight.

HS
Frimmel's picture

The idea was the starving populace would revolt and do the work of removing Cersei for them. Then they'd let the food in and be saviors. 

What would have prevented the loss of the dragon was good intel on the Iron Fleet. Maybe a garrison at Dragonstone with watches that would see an enemy camping your anchorage. Maybe a bit more skepticism about Yara and the Iron Islands. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

HS
actionstanleyjackson's picture

I would think Varys and his many spies around the realm would have gotten him some intel about that whole ambush

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

HS
QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

He lost his network of "little birds" / spies while in Essos, he talked about losing them in season 6. He hasn't been back in Westeros long enough to recruit a new network.

Shandy is not beer

HS
NavyBuckeye91's picture

Varys? How about hooking Bran up to that Heart Tree and watching Cersei's converstations with Euron? Maybe taking a look at the Iron Fleet to see what they've been up to? Maybe checking out King's Landing's defenses and seeing a couple dozen ballistas on the ramparts? 

You have the single greatest Intel asset in the history of warfare, and you're not using him.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
CincyBuck's picture

Good frigging point, Navy. 

Though it further calls into question what role Bran plays in the show's outcome.  Is he just lazy and/or has bigger priorities?  Does he not care who wins?  Is he some greater good/evil that will otherwise influence events in the last two episodes?

Is it just bad writing?  My money's on the last one...

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I'm Ron Burgundy's picture

I'm going with bad writing too.  He seems quite underutilized, by both the characters in his world and the writers of the story.  If there's limitations to what he can and can't do, they've done a pretty poor job of explaining that.  Which wouldn't take much screen time to establish.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

He seems quite underutilized, by both the characters in his world and the writers of the story

Not like this is the first time, they forgot he even existed for an entire season (5), he disappeared part way thru season 4 and didn't resurface until a few episodes into season 6.

Shandy is not beer

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Of course they're ingrates.  She's in the North.  As far as their concerned, she's not their queen.  Both Lyanna and Sansa have made that clear over and over.  So she's not being very politically aware or astute in how she just forces that point down their throats.

Don't you see her legitimizing Gendry as a cynical attempt at showing the North how generous she was?

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Frimmel's picture

I've been less than enthusiastic about Daenerys because she loses her shit anytime someone tells her something she doesn't want to hear. Just like Cersei. 

And without the dragons and armies The Night King wins in the north and then The Night King wins and neither has a kingdom to rule. Wanting to rest troops after a battle and allow the wounded to heal and bolster the ranks before marching them south in winter is not being an ingrate. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Her judgement can be flawed. Rushing into battle last week not sticking to the plan...rushing into battle this week...and she is playing into Cersei's hands...Cersei wants her to burn KL down...if Cersei is not on the throne her plan is to not have a throne...or city. Dany is giving her that. She is falling for the bait. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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tkrussell's picture

That may be the exact reason they decide to have Arya be the one that kills Danny. D&D have  made it pretty clear the last 3 seasons that they are trying to put their own personal stamp on the end of the story. Because that original conversation with Arya and Mellisandre doesn't even take place in the books so thats exclusively theirs. They seem to be placing some importance on show only details at this point and they could cherry pick the brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes quote again like last week and pretend it was foreshadowing when they "subvert our expectations". Kind of seems like their m.o. At this point

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

D&D have  made it pretty clear the last 3 seasons that they are trying to put their own personal stamp on the end of the story.

They don't really have much of a choice, they ran out of book material in Season 5

Shandy is not beer

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tkrussell's picture

Absolutely, but I was more referencing the addition of things that won't or could not possibly happen in the books being added even with George's bullet points. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Sansa has basically become Littlefinger at this point. I hope she dies next episode.

Her character has always annoyed me, was really hoping she would end up with the Night King just so she could keep going from bad-to-worse with her relationships.

Shandy is not beer

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Hanawi_'s picture

Still thinking Daario might be back to help with his recruits. But, it's getting late in the game.

Curious what role, if any, Bran will play in the next two episodes since he isn't in Kings Landing. Or Sam, for that matter. He's kind of been dumped off to the side.

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hetuck's picture

Euron screwed up by shifting fire before he killed all the dragons. 

Tyrion is a miniature Sun Tzu wanting to win without fighting. Perhaps he offers the Golden Company double, leaving only Euron's bunch. 

My money is on Arya killing Cersei after taking the face of her Maester Hand. If the Hound takes down the Mountain, that should take care of her list. 

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Euron is a full of himself. It will be his downfall. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

"The Greyjoys aren't good at anything."  - Jaime Lannister

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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BBQ_Fan's picture

I enjoyed the write up in the NYT which likened the after-funeral action to turning 

Winterfell into a party house from some ’80s teen comedy. Tormund sloshed wine everywhere except his actual mouth. Tyrion and Jaime played drinking games with Brienne and Podrick. (Another Season 1 callback.) Attractive young women fawned over schlubs. (Apparently Tormund and the Hound are irresistible to nubile young Northerners.) Everything — and everyone — got trashed. And, of course, it all ended with someone losing their virginity.

LOL

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/05/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4-missandei-recap.html

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Frimmel's picture

Those girls were whores in the service of Lady Sansa. At least the scene played like that to me. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Frimmel, that dawned on me too. She picked up a lot from Littlefinger. Prostitutes are excellent for information gathering in those settings.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

The NYT of all places is offended because the world of GRRM has different sexual mores than real life?  Oh, and after the entire North thought they were going to die, don't you think there would be a celebration that "got out of hand"?  That seems pretty realistic to me.  That looks like the writing of someone looking to complain to demonstrate their sophistication.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

Oh C'mon, it's a funny take. The rest of the write up was pretty straight.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

The NYT never does anything funny.  (Well, not intentionally anyway).  They are always serious.  Just ask them.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

You have to read past the first page.

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

I think it was more the irreverence of the scene played against last week's dark carnage. Drinking games and hooking up. Winter Break. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I've been to a couple of combat theaters.  That scene was dead, balls-on, accurate. That's what the survivors do.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

They have gone out of their way to show Dany breaking...she is paranoid and not listening to good advice. I am afraid her descent into madness will have her try to kill Jon during this next episode or 2. That is where Ayra might come into play...

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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EvanstonBuckeye's picture

Also, they've shown Dany to be incapable of alliances unless they have a master-slave dynamic (her "freeing" the Unsullied), whereas Jon has proven his genius at creating partnerships with even enemies. She's all alone at the post-battle bash, which is foreshadowing for how she'll fare the rest of the way. 

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Frimmel's picture

One of the things that has been  bothering me so far this morning is Bronn being handed Riverrun. What exactly happened to Edmure? And wasn't there a legit heir of the Tully's though a pawn of the Lannisters in Riverrun? That heir being Edmure's child from his wife of The Red Wedding. Edmure surrendered the castle to save his child but didn't all of that get left hanging afterwards? 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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logamaniac's picture

The final agreement was on highgarden, but all the promises are moot until it’s over and time to pay up.  That’s when the logistical nightmare will begin, because I thought it strange for Tyrion to just dole out lands and title without consulting his queen first.  

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Wargor's picture

Staring down the groove (?) of a loaded crossbow can encourage people to set aside the chain of command.

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Frimmel's picture

I caught what the agreement was. What I don't get is how can they give Riverrun away. It is already in the hands of one of their people who is also holding it by right. 

I also thought Clyburn had just brought Bronn a chest of gold with promise of more gold and did not promise him lands and title. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

All Clyburn promised was the gold, which he paid up front. Didnt Bronn say once that paying him upfront is a bad idea, or something along the lines?

In the S7 episode where Drogon destroys the Lannister Army, Bronn asked why he couldnt have Highgarden then. Jaime shot him down. I think Bronn really wants Highgarden.

And Edmure didnt die that I know of. Maybe they just feel he would be easily disposed of and replaceable?

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Frimmel's picture

Highgarden is one of the wealthiest of The Seven Kingdoms. It is where all the food grows. Everyone wants to be Lord of Highgarden in a manner of speaking. Bronn was in line for something more on the lines of The Last Hearth. 

Bronn is in a pickle because as he said he can't get paid if he kills the likely winners. He also can't not go look or otherwise directly thwart Cersei. Bronn's a bit caught in the middle. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Who's to say Bronn isn't bluffing Jaime and Tyrion with the whole "Cersei promised me River Run" line? Bronn's a sellsword, a cut throat and a gambler.  If he wanted Tyrion to promise him High Garden, of course he threw River Run on the table, even if if it wasn't his already.  How are Tyrion or Jaime supposed to call him on it?

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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cpfanatik77's picture

I think Edmure is at Casterly Rock living comfortably as a prisoner per his arrangement with Jaime Lannister. Riverrun went to one of the Freys after Edmure handed it over in S5. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

That's just it. Didnt Arya wipe all the Freys out?

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Hanawi_'s picture

They already took casterly rock with the unsullied.

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cpfanatik77's picture

That's where they sent him, though. Who knows, with the writing of the last few seasons.

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

Def. going to be a good episode coming up. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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Wargor's picture

So has Jon's purpose in being brought back from the dead been served?  I'm thinking not.  I'm wondering if the discussion about the lord or light between Davos and Tyrian might play on that.  

Arya killing Dany seems likely, but I don't think she survives the show. 

Sansa and Tyrian on the throne seems plausible, somehow.  If Jamie and Cersai are both dead can Tyrian command the Lanister loyalty?  Lanister and Stark joined together certainly would be a shock from the first season.

Do we see Bron again?  I think we have to, and I think someone has to die at his hands.  Tyrian sharing the throne certainly enables the promise he made to him, which we haven't seen Dani informed of...

Varys is definitely toast at some point.  Between the red woman's words to him and the opportunity for noble sacrifice (inspire Tyrian) it seems almost certain.  

We all want Clegain bowl, and certainly the mountain dies somehow, but does the hound survive the season?  I think perhaps so.  He'd make a pretty good Queen's guard for Sansa.

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BuckeyeRealist13's picture

Where is Bran? How recent into the past can he see? I fill like they are not taking advantages of his capabilities.

Episode 5 has the potential to be epic 

2x account suspension survivor 

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Wargor's picture

Got theirs before Wakanda too.  

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

That cup is totally gonna die next week

Shandy is not beer

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Mastro16's picture

Does it have betting odds to end up on the iron throne? +2500?

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Shandy is not beer

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BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

Jon says he doesn't want the throne, but I think Dany gets killed and it will light a fire in him. Think he is on the throne at the end. 

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KnuckIfYouBuck's picture

How would Gendry's surname be Rivers?  Shouldn't it be Waters since he was born and raised in KL?  Even if they called him Gendry Storm, that would have made sense but not sure what ties Gendry has to the Riverlands.

"Life's a garden, dig it." -Joe Dirt

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

How would Gendry's surname be Rivers?  Shouldn't it be Waters since he was born and raised in KL?

Gendry was never acknowledged by Robert Baratheon so he can't use the Waters surname, his surname is instead based on wherever his mother is from

Shandy is not beer

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KnuckIfYouBuck's picture

That makes complete sense why it wouldn't be Waters but why Rivers?  Remind me if I don't recall correctly but I thought we don't know who Gendry's mother is or where she is from. 

Is it Rivers because it can't be Waters or Storm (due to not being acknowledged by Robert) and he gets to take on the surname of the closest kingdom? 

"Life's a garden, dig it." -Joe Dirt

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

but why Rivers?  Remind me if I don't recall correctly but I thought we don't know who Gendry's mother is or where she is from.

You remember correctly, we're never told who his mother is, but the implication from this episode is that she was from somewhere in the Riverlands.

There was a fan theory that said Cersei was his mother (season 1, episode 2 she mentions having a lost her first child with Robert -- a beautiful babe with black hair) but that theory doesn't really make sense now since his name would be Hill rather than Rivers.

Shandy is not beer

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

After sleeping on last night's episode I've come to the following conclusions:

Definitely a reason Arya has been practicing with the bow and arrow. She never used it once at the Battle of Winterfell. She had that spear thing and her dagger. Could be to kill Dany or Cersei. Might be to kill The Hound to put him out of his misery if he's mortally wounded protecting her one last time (would be a fitting end to their story arc after she abandoned him earlier).

Dany is done. She is mentally compromised, Cersei is in her head and she has lost all her voices of reason or lost faith in them. In two episodes she has lost four of the most important things to her, her dragon, Jorah, Missandei, and the clear path to the Iron Throne. The final straw will likely be her finding out Jon told everyone about his parentage. It's a fair bet that Jon dies by Dany's hand (Drogon wont kill another Targ).

Not a spoiler (I dont read those for this) but isnt there STILL a large cache of wildfire under Kings Landing? Tyrion, Cersei, and Qyburn are the only 3 who know it still exists. Wondering if Cersei or Tyrion does something rash with it.

The next character death: Varys. That conversation with Tyrion was foreboding as hell.

Safe money bet who wins the Iron Throne: Sansa
Dark horse bet: Bronn (he finally gets his castle after everyone else is dead)

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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JDD419's picture

She did use the bow when she shot a flaming arrow at a wight to save the hound.

I like the idea about the wildfire. I think that could play a role in the last 2 episodes. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Drogon wont kill another Targ

Targaryens have used their dragons to kill other Targaryens before... I could have seen Rhaegal refusing to kill Jon but not Drogon

Not a spoiler (I dont read those for this) but isnt there STILL a large cache of wildfire under Kings Landing? Tyrion, Cersei, and Qyburn are the only 3 who know it still exists. Wondering if Cersei or Tyrion does something rash with it.

Didn't she use it all when she blew up the Great Sept?

Shandy is not beer

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Wargor's picture

I don't think so.  Wasn't it supposed to be in locations all over the city such that the entire city could be burned?

I'm not sure wildfire comes back into things, but I think it plausibly can if they want it to.

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Frimmel's picture

I'm also of the mind she used it all when she blew up the Sept. I think Clyburn gathered it up from the locations The Mad King placed them in for her demolitions work. Also Tyrion had used a great deal of that same stash for The Battle on The Blackwater. I don't think in the show they've really had anyone manufacture the stuff. 

Though as noted Cersei would be quite content to be Queen of The Ashes so if she can't have it no one can doesn't seem a stretch. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

A couple thoughts on how this is all probably going to play out: 

Some of my friends took Jaime's speech as a declaration of him returning to Cersei, and maybe Brienne took it that way too, but while I do think he's returning to Cersei, he's only going back to kill her. He was trying to make sure Brienne wouldn't follow him because he knows he's not coming back from this. Because GoT loves its callbacks and poetic justice, I think Jaime and Cersei will die in each other's arms. Jaimie will embrace Cersei and then jump off the ramparts of the Red Keep with her, falling down just like when they were kids and they dared each other to jump into the ocean. 

It follows that Arya won't kill Cersei, though she'll certainly try. Arya isn't going to get to off two big bads. She might die in the attempt, but I think she'll at least kill someone. Not Quyburn, since he's going to get shived by the little birds who have always been loyal to Varys, and probably not the Mountain, because the Hound will take care of him. So who does that leave? Euron, maybe? But then Euron probably has to be killed either by Dany/Drogon or by Yara. So I'm really not sure who Arya is going to kill. Dany, maybe? 

Again speaking of Cersei, some people seem to believe that the showrunners are going to pull one over on us and have Cersei win. I don't see that happening, even though this last episode seemed to tip the balance of power decidedly in her favor. The series loves its prophecies, and Cersei has been prophesied to be deposed by a younger, more beautiful queen. Cersei originally took this to mean Marjory Tyrell, and most fans have always assumed that it referred to Dany, but I'm actually starting to think it refers to Sansa. Of all the non-Lannister characters, Sansa has had the closest relationship to Cersei and probably the most animosity. When Sansa was still an innocent girl she saw Cersei as her protector, and Cersei instead ruined her life and tried to have her killed when she really didn't do anything but play her role as a hostage. I can envision a scenario where Dany dies in the battle for King's Landing (or goes mad and is killed by Jon/Arya/Tyrion) and Jon doesn't want to rule, so Sansa steps in as the only qualified person left with any acumen for ruling, and possibly she gets to personally oversee Cersei's execution (again though, I think Jaimie kills Cersei). 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

I would be disappointed if every bad character met with a "poetically just" demise. Some of what you propose, I would agree with, especially Jaime killing Cersei.  It fits the prophesie, it completes his redemption, and he is, after all, "The Kingslayer."

I don't see Sansa ruling the Seven Kingdoms. The North, yes. The Riverlands and the Eyrie, maybe. Definitely not the South. She doesn't want it, and they won't fear her they way they would fear Daenaerys.

Jon is the embodiment of Fire and Ice: he's both Stark and Targaeryen. 

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Cersei simply being shot with an arrow or having her throat slit would be a totally unsatisfying demise for her. It's too quick and too merciful. The carnage and misery she has caused since Jamie pushed Bran out that window in S1 would require a demise that I cant seem to fathom right now. All I know is she deserves something truly horrid after what she did to Missandei

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Wargor's picture

Yeah, the arrow isn't for Cersai.  Might be for Drogan's eye.  Might be to help the hound against the mountain.  

Cersai is dying by either Jamie's hand or Arya's wearing someone else's face.  Klyburn, Mountain (physics problem here), or Jamie's.  

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Cersei simply being shot with an arrow or having her throat slit would be a totally unsatisfying demise for her.

I wouldn't be opposed to Drogon eating her

Shandy is not beer

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stubbzzz's picture

I agree with your take on Jaime.  He’s not going back to join Cersei, he’s going to kill her.  

As far as Arya goes, It occurred to my buddy that she’s just going to help the Hound.   The Mountain is on her list too.  

I think people are taking the different color eyes prophecy too far.   Arya’s killed tons of people, for the brown and green eyes to have been met already, it doesn’t necessarily have to be main characters.  I’m sure there were a few Frey’s that had green eyes.   

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

He’s not going back to join Cersei, he’s going to kill her.  

The directors / showrunners sure made it sound like Jaimie was going back to join Cersei in their "Inside The Episode" last night. Said Cersei is an addiction that Jamie just can't break, no matter how hard he tries or how much he wants to.

Shandy is not beer

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stubbzzz's picture

Yeah I saw that too, and I could understand that mindset of being addicted to someone that’s bad for you.   But I think they just want us to think that until after next weeks episode airs.   Even if Jaime really is intending to join Cersei, I’m convinced he’s still going to end up having to kill her.   

But the way I interpreted that scene was like this, being up North, bonding with all the good guys, being with Brienne, put enough psychological distance between him and Cersei that he’s snapping out of it, and realizing how good life can be without her, and how good he can be.    So he’s spooked when he hears that Cersei killed a Dragon and destroyed a fleet, full of good people who he had just fought along side.   He’s afraid that Cersei might actually be able to win the battle now.   So as he’s sitting there staring at the fire and thinking, Brienne is in the background, representing his chance at redemption and anew life.   And to me it didn’t seem like he was wanting to reject that new life but preserve it.  Or at least preserve it for people who deserve it.  I’m not sure if he feels like he does deserve it.  (I could see this being the angle too... “I’m leaving because I’m a terrible person and I don’t deserve a good life...).    I don’t remember every line he said to Brienne, but he listed off all the terrible things he did for Cersei.   He never used the word love.   Back at Riverrun he gave a similar speech to Edmure, but he said he did it because he loves Cersei.  This time it sounded more like a realization that every terrible thing he’s ever done, was done in service to Cersei.  She’s a monster and she made him a monster as well.  With the threat of Cersei actually winning now being real, he realizes she must be stopped at all costs.   I think that’s what’s going through his head when he’s sitting there thinking.  And as he leaves he says “she is hateful, and so am I”.    Not exactly the same as “she’s not so bad and I love her”.    Since we’ve already seen Jaime do this cycle of flirting with the good guys and then always going back to Cersei, we’re conditioned to expect him to stay loyal to her...  but this time seems a lot different.   I think being with another woman, especially someone honorable like Brienne finally snapped him out of it.  

If not, if I’m wrong about all that, his misguided loyalty is going to get him killed.  Which I guess is a less poetic but more realistic way for his story to end.  

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Olenna told Jaime that Cersei was going to be the death of him. He seemed to agree.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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stubbzzz's picture

Ooh.   Good point.  

Man if everything goes down next week I have no idea what the last episode will even have left to do.   

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I'm Ron Burgundy's picture

From a pacing standpoint, this is where I think the theories of Jamie kills Cersei, and then Arya (or someone) has to kill Dany make sense.  They win over Cersei at great cost in episode 5, but Dany is in full Mad Queen mode so she has to be put down early to mid episode 6.  The rest is wrap up.

I just think they will leave at least one last major surprise / death for ep 6. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Man if everything goes down next week I have no idea what the last episode will even have left to do.   

That's generally how things have gone for the entire series, the penultimate episode of every season has usually been the one with the biggest events.

Shandy is not beer

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Ahh Saturday's picture

Three questions for anyone who wants to answer:

  1. Who do you think will end up on the Iron Throne?
  2. Who do you want to end up on the Iron Throne?
  3. Who do you think would be the best leader?
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Jumar's picture

1. Dany or Jon
2. Nobody. The throne should be broken.
3. Tyrion. Jon is the most noble but too gullible.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Who do you think will end up on the Iron Throne?

Ser Pounce (Tommen's cat)

Who do you want to end up on the Iron Throne?

Bronn

Who do you think would be the best leader?

Tyrion

Shandy is not beer

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Barfolomew's picture

Jon
Cardale Jones
Night King

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Mastro16's picture

1. Sansa

2. Tyrion

3. Jon

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elitesmithie's picture

1. Not Dany

2. Tyrion plus Sansa with Sansa controlling the North

3. Gendry 

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Frimmel's picture

Who do you think will end up on the Iron Throne?

Jon Snow when it is all said and done. Daenerys is going to fumble it at the goal line. Or maybe more blows a big lead thinking the game is won. Maybe circumstance just makes it seem like Snow is who made the victory possible and has greatness thrust upon him. 

Who do you want to end up on the Iron Throne?

Jon Snow. Hard after all this time not to see him as the hero of the tale. Folks like stories where the good guys win. 

Who do you think would be the best leader?

Jon Snow. Jon knows being in charge takes both sticks and carrots. He understands there is tedium that has to be overseen. He understands that being in charge doesn't mean he gets to do whatever he wants. He understands it doesn't mean you get what you want instantly. He understands even a king needs the consent of the governed (back to Navy's comments about a conqueror versus a ruler.) 

Who actually ends up running things? 

Sansa as Hand of The King and Tyrion as Master of Coin. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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MiamiBuckeye's picture

Sansa will not be Jon's Hand if Jon ends up on the throne. She's not leaving Winterfell just to be the king's Chief of Staff. Anyway, Jon would never ask her, he'd ask Sam or Davos. 

"porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra."

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Frimmel's picture

Davos can barely read. I see Davos and Sam perhaps as key advisers but don't picture them as running the small council material. Jon would send them to council meetings trusting them to brief him properly on the goings on and speak on his behalf. But Jon would not be absent like Robert or useless like the boy kings. 

If Dany isn't Queen by conquest or marriage current zeitgeist in entertainment suggests at least one woman in charge somewhere. The Hand runs the realm. It is more than Chief of Staff. That suggests Sansa to me. It is a fair point though that she'd likely prefer to stay in Winterfell which would also fit the zeitgeist. Dany in King's Landing more chance of Sansa in Winterfell. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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logamaniac's picture

Davos has more to contribute than reciting nursery rhymes for the kingdom though, hes got a good mind and hes able to read people and play his position well enough given that hes survived thus far from where he arrived from.  hes also extremely loyal and unlikely to move in a position ulterior to what Jon would want should he end up being Hand.

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Frimmel's picture

That's a fair take on Davos. You need someone around to help you see who is feeding you a load of bull. Davos is your right hand man and goes pretty much everywhere with you. I just don't think Davos would be much of an administrator which we have seen Sansa being at Winterfell for some time now. The Hand has to "handle" The King. Davos's loyalty and character aren't geared for that. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

The Hand has to "handle" The King. Davos's loyalty and character aren't geared for that. 

Davos was his de facto hand during Jon's reign as "King of The North"

Shandy is not beer

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Frimmel's picture

Over the last seasons we've lost a bit of sight of the what I mean when I say "Hand of The King" in the context of how this whole thing shakes out.

I'm back on a first season Jon Arryn take for "Hand of The King." The Hand essentially runs the realm with or in the case of Jon Arryn under Robert for The King. Tywin when Geoffery or Tommen were King for instance. 

To compare it to the US government. The Hand is Vice-President and The Small Council is The Cabinet though in Westeros they are simply appointed and serve at the King's pleasure. Davos in my reasoning would be Assistant to The President and Chief of Staff. 

In your video both Tyrion and Davos are more buffers between their monarchs and the others in the room. We have not seen Tyrion or Davos acting in the role of hand in the same way as Ned Stark in season one. In your scene above Davos is more of cross between Tyrion and Missandei taking on some of the role of each. Missandei is Gatekeeper to The Queen. 

I think it is a reasonable take though for Davos as hand as I mean. Particularly, if Sansa doesn't want the job. I just see Davos as more Missandei than as Tywin.

I mean no disparagement of Davos with any of this either. He's one of my favorite characters both in the novels and the show.    

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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Frimmel's picture

Maybe Davos just gives up politics and opens a home or hospital for kids with grayscale in memory of poor little Shireen. Gathers up a bunch of maesters to research a cure. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

No need to research a cure, Samwell already figured it out

Shandy is not beer

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

To compare it to the US government. The Hand is Vice-President and The Small Council is The Cabinet

Agree with the Small Council / Cabinet comparison but disagree with the VP analogy. The VP has no actual power beyond being able to cast a tie-breaking vote in the Senate, until the President is no longer capable of performing his duties. Chief of Staff might be a better comparison but even that is largely "behind the scenes" power and/or policy influence. Maybe the UK Prime Minister would be a more apt comparison, save for the whole "being elected" bit.

Shandy is not beer

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Wargor's picture

As one former office holder once said, the office is "Not worth a bucket of warm piss."

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hetuck's picture

Actually, he said warm spit, but point taken. 

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

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Frimmel's picture

Well the Cabinet doesn't actually technically run the country unlike the Small Council and I believe that The Vice-President is the chief cabinet member though he's largely decorative. I did make a fairly stretched analogy.

None of that is here nor there but as long as you're seeing the distinction I'm trying to make between Hand of the King and The King's Personal Secretary. I'm seeing Davos more as King's Personal Secretary and Sansa as Hand of The King. The Hand of The King would have to make an appointment via Davos to see the King in a very formal version of my framework. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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BBQ_Fan's picture

She's not leaving Winterfell just to be the king's Chief of Staff

Ned Stark was not thrilled to leave Winterfell to become HotK either.  But duty calls.

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logamaniac's picture

I don't think Sansa would be willing to leave Winterfell to anyone though as she would have to if she took that roll.  Id be more apt to believe Davos as Hand than Sansa although I think she'd be good in the roll and shrewd as Hand, not making the same mistakes that Ned made.

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Cmarti1961's picture

I agreed with you earlier....Danny should just burn it all down like a fire breathing female Patton.  Cersei is evil, Euron repugnant, and the North does not acknowledge she lost half her forces.  I know that that will not happen, even if it would make me feel better. 

But Jon Snow as a ruler?  Maybe Secretary of State, to put coalition armies together.  He is a player's coach, and the players are willing to die for him.  Unfortunately they do.  Knuckehead Stark men have killed more good people with honor than they could save with smarts.  Sansa, far smarter and hopefully not to bitter to rule.

Sansa would be safe money as we head down the stretch.....barring disqualification.

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I am not very smart.

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Frimmel's picture

I don't think I suggested that Daenerys should burn it all down. I do suggest that Cersei doesn't care if all gets burned down as long as she's Queen of The Ashes. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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saintstephen11's picture

Jon is kind of a dope though. He has had his ass bailed out repeatedly throughout the series due to dumb or irrational decisions. Way too principled to be a leader.  A ruler has to be able to be more practical.  If you are too rigid in your principles, then you can't get shit accomplished effectively and make unwise decisions.  My wife and I have these arguments all of the time (principles vs. practical).      

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logamaniac's picture

i think what most people fail to realize is that being king or queen of the 7 kingdoms dont require you to be the best fighter, best strategist, most feared, most kindest or smartest person in the kingdom.  But a good ruler surrounds themselves with those people they trust to hold up each of those tenets and I think Jon would do that. 

Ultimately he would make decisions that were best for everyone and he also wouldn't care about the title and people fawning over him which is why Jon as a ruler would be better than alternatives aside from perhaps theoretically tyrion.

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Frimmel's picture

I think Jon understands principle and practical. I think where Snow has gotten in trouble is there was only one way forward in fighting The Nigh King. With that over he can afford a bit more flexibility. As King with the realm at peace he'll be less locked into one way forward. And as King your principles are the realm's principles. That's going to filter down and require less compromise as everyone gets on side as it were. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Jon is kind of a dope though

Would you say he "knows nothing"?

Shandy is not beer

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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SOF_Buckeye's picture

This take right here on Jon Snow is one of my biggest gripes, and it's due to how the show portrays Jon Snow. He is not a dope in the books at all. Yes, he does have honor, but he also makes good decisions, whether tactical or strategic. In the show, it's all about luck and failing/falling upward. In the books, it's about moving upward without because he's the right person, due to his ability and integrity (not his desire to). The show makes many choices of it's own, whether before or after they ran out of book material (some are of no major issue; many for no real reason, or just to simplify the story).

My take, either there is no 'Iron Throne', or someone along the line of Tyrion, Edmure, Gendry, or even Sam rule in a new capacity. If Jon survives, he returns north; either to Winterfell or north of the wall.

"The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender." Woody Hayes

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Who do you think will end up on the Iron Throne?

Jon Snow when it is all said and done. Daenerys is going to fumble it at the goal line.

In which case I wouldn't put it past her to try and impersonate Jon Snow:

Shandy is not beer

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Jumar's picture

She might be too tall to play Jon Snow.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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Wargor's picture

1.  Sansa.  

2.  Jon, with Sansa in the north and Tyrian and Davos on the small council.  

3.  See #2.  Jon will listen to good advise and Tyrian and Davos will give it.  

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

1. Sansa

2. Snow

3. Snow

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Finally got to see this weeks episode last night, really didn't like it.  Honestly may have been 1 of the worst episodes of the series, sooooo many plot holes.  Hopefully they redeem themselves this week.

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logamaniac's picture

way to contribute to the discussion, your post without any substance is highly regarded and we are thankful for your graciously allowing us to read it.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

You took my criticism kind of personally, are you on the production team for the show?  If so, could you explain how the super intelligent dragons didn't spot/smell Euron's fleet from their bird's eye perspective?  Or how Euron was able to snipe Rhaegal with Haskins like accuracy, then turned into Bauserman when he was shooting at Drogon? Or how Missandei was captured yet everyone else took a leisurely swim to shore?  Whoever wrote the episode didn't spend too much time thinking about the details.

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logamaniac's picture

im not defending the episode and theres lots of opinions i dont agree with on here but coming here and dropping a "IT BAD DUEDS BYE" was the issue.  if you have things to complain about then you can add to the discussion by actually discussing them.

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Mastro16's picture

I disagree. You can ignore any comment that you don't find sufficiently engaging. CT offered an opinion or two, so if nothing else, you can get a sense of what his reaction is to the episode. 

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

No he didn't.  He offered a Hot Take with no statement of why.  That's a crap post.  If you don't like something that is sure to fire people up, you at least owe them the respect of stating why.  Otherwise you're just another "You SUCK" Troll.  

Re How Missandei got caught.  In a storyline with a budget of time, is it really worth wasting  two or three scenes showing how she was captured?  Who gives a shit.  What's important is that she was.   

If you were paying attention, Euron was hiding behind an island.  In military manuevers, line of sight is paramount.  The dragons weren't flying high enough to see the fleet lying in wait.  That was a military blunder on Dany; and not her first.  

As far as hitting one UNCONTROLLED dragon versus the one Dany was riding, gee, do you think THAT'S WHY Euron couldn't hit her?  She was able to drop some chaff and avoid the missles.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Post was better than the episode but I digress.

Given she was in the water with every other character, yes it was important.  Why capture her and not try to kill/capture anyone of military value?

Line of sight also works both ways, and it seems Euron had no trouble seeing them.  Given what we've seen on the dragons throughout the series, they would have known they were there far before Dany.  Like when Jaime was charging her after Dany ambushed them leaving Highgarden.

No, I don't think Dany was the difference.  I think they just wanted to kill Rhaegal for dramatic effect and didn't put much thought into how.  Kind of coincides with #2.  Dany was flying Drogon straight at Euron and he couldn't hit him, after going 3 for 3 on a side moving target much further away.  Was pretty stupid.

Like I said, hopefully this writing isn't a sign of things to come in the next 2 episodes.  The overall quality of the show suggests it won't be, lets hope so.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Line of sight also works both ways, and it seems Euron had no trouble seeing them.

Except, he knew they were coming; and knew their destination.  He was prepared for them.  They ASSUMED, he was back tapping Cersei in KL.  

 Dany was flying Drogon straight at Euron and he couldn't hit him, after going 3 for 3 on a side moving target much further away. 

Have you ever tried to shoot at a moving target.  Firing broadside is easier than head-on.  Add the idea that the target coming head-on can incinerate you any second now; not hard to see how his accuracy might suffer.

 I think they just wanted to kill Rhaegal for dramatic effect 

This whole fucking show has been written for dramatic effect.  BFD.  You don't think killing the Wight Troll by Ly Mormont was done for dramatic effect?

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

How did he know their destination?  Was he tipped off?  How did he know they weren't on the Kings Road with the rest of the army?  He ASSUMED they would go back there, he didn't know shit.  Also completely ignores the fact that the dragons would have known he was there far before he had an open shot.  Apparently the wanna be Jack Sparrow is one of the shows biggest badasses now though.

Its harder to hit something closer coming head on than something moving away from you at a much greater distance?  We can agree to disagree on that one, especially given that he landed 3 out of 3 critical shots while he was moving himself then failed to come close to Drogon.  

No shit, but they actually put thought into the details of their scenarios for the most part until this last episode.  The LM scene was absolutely done for dramatic effect, and the feasibility of he stabbing something 2 feet away from her really isn't terrible.  Her surviving his initial hit was a stretch, but thats a different discussion.  

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Mastro16's picture

But just think - if he hadn’t posted it then nothing would’ve started this important discussion about the acceptable standards of quality forum posts. So, he’s kind of a hero, really.

Not the hero we need, but the one we deserve.

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

One thing I am also curious about. When Jon told Arya and Sansa about who he really was it immediately led to Arya leaving Winterfell (and it looks like for good). I would like to see a flash back or something to that conversation and their reaction. Neither Sansa nor Arya looked angry at Jon but they sure were affected by it. I'd be very curious if Jon also told Sansa and Arya that he no longer trusts Dany.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Frimmel's picture

I think Arya was already on her way out the door before she learned Jon is really her cousin. The news may have sped up her departure but I don't think she was staying. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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logamaniac's picture

agreed i think thats part of why she told the unbastard that she couldnt settle down, she knew she was on the move and might always be.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

That line was a call back to season 1 when her dad said that she'll be a lady of a great house someday and have lots of children, to which she replied "no, that isn't me".

Shandy is not beer

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logamaniac's picture

yes but that callback doesnt change the reasoning.  shes got a mission and its not over, might not ever be over.

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oztintacius's picture

GRRM says he "doesn't have time to watch GoT" yet is tweeting about how great Knightfall on the History channel is... that pretty much tells me what I need to know about the shows' writing.

It sucks that the execs clearly got involved and penny pinched to some degree. These "shortened" seasons have been too truncated and the pacing is just bad. Killing off another dragon and sending Ghost to the wall = saving $$$ on that CGI budget. Anyone who has read the books knows how central the theme of the Stark kids and their dire wolves is to the series - and the show is just like "see ya Ghost!". The show really failed to do the wolves justice while giving the dragons (admittedly cool) all the glory.

They just never really seemed certain how to integrate the Wolves... which is a shame... Danny gets to trot out her dragons to intimidate everyone all the time for conversations- Ghost should have been there with Jon when he told her his secret.. staring her down which would have been a GREAT ice&fire counterpoint to Drogon staring down Jon. (You're not the only one with a powerful, mythical creature by your side!)

Oh well, i'll try to enjoy the final two episodes for what they are.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

They definitely killed Rhaegal just to kill him, and didn't put much thought into the how.  They've told us over and over how smart the dragons are, yet they somehow missed Euron's entire fleet from a bird's eye perspective?  Pretty lazy writing.

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Lazy is a generous description. They stopped caring about this series once they were greenlit for the prequel. I mean, no one noticed a fucking Starbucks in the scene? The 2 shitheads mainly responsible for this have joined Michael Bay and Rian Johnson on the short list of 'do not watch under any circumstances.'

LOL at anyone trying to decipher what will happen based on the characters, because hardly any of the characters are behaving as they have for the majority of the show.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

The 2 shitheads mainly responsible for this have joined Michael Bay and Rian Johnson on the short list of 'do not watch under any circumstances.'

I bet you'll love this guy then:

His review of this past episode:

Shandy is not beer

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Already a fan of his work, but appreciate the share nonetheless. In the next day or so, I'm expecting a post from 'The Critical Drinker', who is my favorite at reviews. For reference, this was his S8E3 take:

https://youtu.be/KAVWThwNFHo

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Sanantonefan's picture

I think they purposely left the Starbucks in to be discovered for PR. The internet was buzzing about it!

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Crowd Threatening Bauserbombs's picture

There’s really no basis for a giant crossbow killing a dragon or (perhaps worse) blasting straight through giant wooden ships like paper.  This fact ignores that it’s literally impossible to hit a flying dragon with one arrow from a moving ship. Anyway, in the stories allegedly a dragon was killed by a similar contraption but it was shot in the eye.  Their armor is impenetrable. Here they just get blasted and die instantly so are basically worthless. 

I’m guessing in the books Danys other dragons may be killed or controlled by magic like Euron’s dragon binder but they just didn’t want to mess with it so they said “let’s just have them invent something that is entirely based upon current weapons but somehow nobody thought of in thousands of years”, that could happen!

The show runners really have no concept of the books, magic, or military strategy, they just make up dumb shit to fit their film goals. Say what you want about GRRM but ar least he knew what he was talking about and provided reasonable basis for things happening. 

Ill watch to find out what happens and for the cinema but the story and plot is off the rails bad. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

There are also a lot of people who don't have a coping mechanism to deal when a piece of entertainment doesn't go the way they want (see every Star Wars, MCU, and GOT fanboy/fangirl on planet who get angry over spoilers a year before the movie comes out). Almost like Kathy Bates in Misery bashing James Caan with a sledgehammer for killing off her favorite book character.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Wargor's picture

Good point on the ships.  I'd forgotten that part, but if ballista were that effective at destroying ships I'm not sure gunpowder cannons would have ever gotten a fair chance.  

I suppose we didn't count on there being so much valarian steel lying around such that they could make the 'strings' and bows out of them.

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logamaniac's picture

dragons havent been alive for hundreds if not a thousand years until the three we got introduced to.  Also the Dornish killed a dragon with some sort of projectile, i think it was the dragon of Aegon's sister or sisterwife or something.

so there is literary precedent in this universe for a similar weapon killing dragons.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

There’s really no basis for a giant crossbow killing a dragon or (perhaps worse) blasting straight through giant wooden ships like paper.

let’s just have them invent something that is entirely based upon current weapons

It's called a ballista, it was a real weapon (in the real world), and yes it was mentioned in the books: Dorne used one to kill Rhaenys Targaryen's dragon, Meraxes.

This fact ignores that it’s literally impossible to hit a flying dragon with one arrow from a moving ship.

That's literally an untrue statement. It wouldn't be an easy shot by any means, but it's hardly "impossible".

Their armor is impenetrable

If there armor is impenetrable then how did an angry mob manage to kill 4 dragons during the storming of the dragonpit, as well as a fifth dragon that had managed to escape and was terrorizing Kings Landing? There armor isn't impenetrable, it's just very tough.

Shandy is not beer

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Crowd Threatening Bauserbombs's picture

Yes giant crossbow is a term mocking it.  We know it’s a ballista. If you ever shot a rifle at a moving bird from massive range, you’d know that that shot is impossible, especially if you’re moving too, let alone 3 for the first 3!  That’s maybe your worst statement.  It’s impossible. 

If you read the Dornish story again they hit it in the eye, as I said. A bit different than the chest.  

My bad on impenetrable, but you have to admit it essentially is, especially in the chest.  All armor has weak points. As stated below it wouldn’t have been hard to make it believable. Stationary shot, many shots but most miss, etc.  

In these things everyone gets their panties in a bunch on both sides. I think these points are reasonable, the show runners just didn’t care to make an effort.

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logamaniac's picture

you are still aware that flying dragons are impossible as well right?  Dragons don't exist but they do in the show, its also plausible our real life ballistics rules are different for the show and I don't have a problem with that.

the problem also isn't that the specific rules of dragons differ from the books as many other things have, the gripe with the episode seems to revolve around the consistency of action, or lack thereof.  

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Wargor's picture

And how long would it have taken them to show a few 10 second scenes of them landing the ballistas on the rocky shore at night and then baiting the dragons into attacking the fleet.  The bolts from the fleet miss as it is too hard to aim at a close in swooping target under fire, but on the sweep away to turn around again the dragons are ambushed by the hidden ballistas on the shore when the grey tarps are thrown off.  

Hollywood, here I come!

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logamaniac's picture

for the record, HBO doesnt get a good return on a shortened season of GOT.  If they can stretch out a season into an additional month thats at most its 1/12th yearly earnings, at minimum its saving the loss from cancelled subs from people that only have it for thrones.

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Calgarybuck's picture

Actors are paid on a per episode basis, HBO is making the right call.

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

-I agree...might see the Wildlings and Ghost show back up to help Jon one last time.

-Thinking about the whole Jamie/Cersei thing...she's really selling to Euron this whole idea the kid is his...wouldn't be surprised if Jamie and Euron have a chat about that in Ep 5...with either one of them actually believing the other. I know Jaime should know that chronologically the child is his, but what if Euron convinces him that Cersei wasn't pregnant previously...or Jaime tells Euron Cersei is lying to him about the baby, and that it's Jaimes?  Could easily end in a death of one or the other.  Would the fleet still be loyal to Cersei without Euron, or would they then re-align with Yara?  

-I think the Hound wins Clegane bowl, but either costs him his life doing so, or he dies saving Arya. 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

he's really selling to Euron this whole idea the kid is his

That makes Euron the dumbest person on the show, Tyrion talking about the baby right in front of him yet he doesn't catch on to the fact that she was pregnant before he banged her.  Doesn't have much common sense for a guy they've shown as a great military strategist.

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logamaniac's picture

why would he think she was already pregnant?  from his point of view i mean, why would he have reservations about that?

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Because Tyrion has been gone for months, and as far as Euron knows Cersei just found out she's pregnant.  From Euron's PoV, what feasible explanation is there that Tyrion knows about the baby?

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logamaniac's picture

from Euron's POV, it would be assumed there would be some sort of announcement if the Queen was pregnant.  This universe does have a system for fast message delivery so its not a stretch to believe that he would think the information might be generally known.  We also didn't get to see much of the aftermath did we?  perhaps hes shouting up a storm and asking questions about it once they leave the rampart.

there are a lot of plot holes but i dont think Euron not knowing if the baby is his is one of them.

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Exactly...how fast did word travel to Winterfell about the dragon being killed?  Why wouldn't word have traveled just as fast out of KL that the queen is pregnant? 

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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logamaniac's picture

i get that we as viewers have doubts about the baby's parentage, but thats because we have the luxury of being the viewer.  when you put yourself into the perspective of the individual you realize he doesnt have reason to doubt something that he wants so badly aside from knowing cersei is a serious B.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

I guess it was the same way the word traveled from the North that Jon and Co were surrounded by White Walkers and needed Dragon reinforcements last season.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

how fast did word travel to Winterfell about the dragon being killed?  Why wouldn't word have traveled just as fast out of KL that the queen is pregnant? 

Season 7 established that Westerosi's have mastered light-speed communications, and travel.

Shandy is not beer

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Sanantonefan's picture

​Did anyone notice a modem next to the Starbucks cup??? lol

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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hetuck's picture

I assume the Maester standing next to Sansa brought her a raven message. Perhaps the Maester network doesn't know Cersei is pregnant. 

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

Vince Lombardi

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

I guess it hinges on Euron having complete trust in Cersei, which would be an uncharacteristically dumb move on his part.  Not saying its a plot hole, just bad character development.  He's shown to be pretty intelligent in the other areas, and apparently is an olympic level shot with a giant crossbow when shooting at secondary dragons but somehow blindly follows someone he's seen screw over tons of people.  Weakens him imo, which makes his killing Rhaegal even dumber to me.

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logamaniac's picture

thats just it, i think the dragon killing was a huge hole.  like why didnt they take any more shots at drogon?  what if you miss?  you miss 100% of the shots you dont take.  if youre shooting 100% on rhaegal then id say youre likely hitting Drogon at least once, which would still be better than leaving him unharmed.

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Barfolomew's picture

After Dany dodged all those shots she should have flown behind the ships and torched them. No way they turn around faster than a dragon and they can't see through their sails to shoot backwards.

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Episode 5 should also start with Drogon torching the walls of Kings Landing on a night mission.  Those crossbows are set up in a nice straight line for him to strafe.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Episode 5 should also start with Drogon torching the walls of Kings Landing on a night mission.  Those crossbows are set up in a nice straight line for him to strafe.

Agreed.

Don't be surprised if HBO gives her a pair of "ye olde night vision goggles" for the attack

Shandy is not beer

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elitesmithie's picture

Even if Euron finds out its Jamies he isn't going to stop doing anything. He wants control and power and needs her to give it to him..for now.

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Jsnyde45's picture

This piss poor writing is ruining the show. 

-wtf was that scene with bronn?

- Arya only trusts Stark's but then tells the hound she's never coming home

-the ghost scene was just incredibly poor

-euron 3 for 3 on rhaegal and goes 0 for 20 on drogon

- Dany couldn't see eurons fleet from her bird's eye view on drogons back? 

-cersie decides to keep all of her enemies alive for some reason? All just sitting ducks right in front of her. Makes no sense. 

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SonOfBuckeye's picture
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Hanawi_'s picture

Seems like they are setting up Sansa for the Iron Throne. Give me Grey Worm as the best leader and most deserving of it. Though maybe the show will throw us all for a loop and have Qyburn, apparently the smartest man to ever live in Westeros as the winner. He's basically Leonardo da Vinci reincarnated.

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Only Qyburn was expelled from the Citadel from operating on corpses like Dr. Frankenstein

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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actionstanleyjackson's picture

I want to see a Varys v Qyburn one on one fight to the death. 

Stay golden, Ponyboy.

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

I'd rather see Grand Maester Pycelle and Qyburn throwdown than watch Varys fight anyone.

Shandy is not beer

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Cmarti1961's picture

I can't believe I would question the reality of a show with dragons and white walkers......but to the bow hunters out there;   Try shooting a game bird in flight at 20 yards. Flu flu feathers, wide head and trick shot skill. Now Euron can nail a dragon from a rocking ship at a couple hundred/thousand yards, with a bolt too heavy to have any ballistic coefficient. Oh well....

Rather than worry about it, I have settled on if I can believe some of it, I can believe all of it. 

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I am not very smart.

HS
Wargor's picture

That's the kind of thing though that drives me nuts (not you).  Fantasy and Science Fiction have rules baked into the universe they create.   We talk about suspended disbelief, but we never suspend all of it.  We should no more accept GOT bending physics they've adhered to for 7 seasons than we should accept lightsabers that shoot laser beams, Spock using his ears to fly, or Gandalf remembering he has a teleportation spell in the third movie.  

GOT is a fairly low magic fantasy world where we have never seen the laws of physics substantially broken (outside of flying dragons, which we all accept if we accept dragons at all).  We spend all this time establishing that Arya is a pretty good shot and all of a sudden it is Euron who channels Legolas out of the blue with an invention that can do more damage to a ship than a 18th century brass cannon.

The worst part is that it isn't necessary.  They could have killed the dragon with those weapons with a realistic ambush and destroyed the fleet without the use of a reality bending super weapon.  

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Wargor, what rules have been baked into Westeros? We assume this world is like Earth but it really never has felt that way to me. In The Matrix one of the first things Morpheus tells Neo about the nature of the Matrix is how rules can be bent and broken, which then allows us to believe that Neo can fly like Superman. People bought that because it was based in a computer program. What if this whole series proves to be nothing more than a dream or takes place in the blue eyeball of a giant named Macumber? So people get pissed that the rules of Earth physics and Sun Tzu aren't followed? THAT makes no sense to me.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Wargor's picture

Plenty of rules are baked in.  We see them use horses, boats, walk, etc. so the rule is there that teleportation doesn't exist, or at the very least is so extremely rare that it has never came up.  We meticulously establish that with special training Arya can take a dead person's face.  She doesn't get to shoot fire from her fingers next episode to kill Cersai while riding a centaur.  

More power to you if you are able to just use dream logic to enjoy whatever they come up with (and I do mean that), but science fiction and fantasy that I enjoy sticks to its own rules wherever possible.  And I'm not pissed, but I am disappointed.  

As far as being based on a computer program, that was baked into the Matrix and there was a computer world and a 'real' world.  They didn't just add it at the end.  You going to be completely okay if episode six ends with everything up in the air with a cut scene to a teenager's room in America where an angry parent unplugs the computer and tells their kid to go out and play and not spend so much time on dumb video games?  Hey, the story just ends when the electron flow is cut off, so okay...?

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

She doesn't get to shoot fire from her fingers next episode to kill Cersai while riding a centaur.  

Are you trying to give them ideas? HBO could easily add that bit of CGI before Sunday...

Shandy is not beer

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BBQ_Fan's picture

She doesn't get to shoot fire from her fingers next episode

That would be an awesome trick to heat up her coffee!

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Crowd Threatening Bauserbombs's picture

This is the best comment of the thread. 

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elitesmithie's picture

Perfect example of this is Star Wars. For 8 movies through Rogue One we never hear any issues with fuel use. All of a sudden its a giant issue. The Holdo Manuever brings up why don't we take small ships and destroy large ships all the time? I'll give a pass on the Leia movement through space as she has the force in her but its heavily implied that Lightsabers require the force and a non force user would basically accidently kill themselves when trying to use. All of a sudden Rey and Finn use in 7 no problem. Ok so maybe Rey is a Skywalker(as it calls to her in 7) but again in episode 8 we found out shes nothing.

Back to GoT - we hear how Dragons are the reason the Targs rule for so long and everyone freaks out about how amazing they are. Yea the NK took one out but he is the ultimate bad guy. Then all of a sudden Captain Horny takes one out like its nothing. By that measure how the hell did the Targs rule anything?

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logamaniac's picture

regarding lightsabers, they're built by Jedi and if I remember correctly its a part of their training so obviously they would be the ones to master their use.  however that doesn't mean that others can't wield them.  Prime example was dooku training grievous to use them and kill Jedi with them.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

By that measure how the hell did the Targs rule anything?

Oh, I don't know.  maybe Danyerus isn't as smart as she thinks she is.  Maybe she's too inexperienced in all things war and is overconfident because she has airpower and no one else does.  Except, she doesn't know how to effectively wield it.  And that explains how she can get ambushed by "Captain Horny."  Great name by the way.  I laughed when I read that.  Its great and accurate, which makes it funny.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Its a STORY.  So you're ok with DRAGONS, but have a problem with the physics of the show?  AHAHAHAHAHA.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Wargor's picture

I have a problem with changing physics with no explainable reason behind it.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Ooooh.  The science of a show is not accurate.  But HALF THE SHOW HAS MAGIC.  LOL.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Wargor's picture

It seems like you are deliberately missing the point several of us are making and choosing to mock us for it.  I'm not sure why you feel the need.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Because I find this nerdfest absurd on a myriad of levels.  There is a thing in fiction/drama called suspension of disbelief.  And you guys are so focused on minutae of details, but can't recognize that this imaginary world is what it is.  You can suspend your disbelief regarding dragons and magic, but get upset because the anti-hero was successful at shooting at a target.  That's just patently absurd.

Or that some of you think you know how to construct a show better than two showrunners of the most successful show in the history of television.  Your arrogance is hilarious and deserving of all the lampooning anyone can bring.  You strike me as one of two types of people:

  1. Someone who criticizes everything because you're a miserable asshole
  2. Someone who criticizes everything because you have some need to sound smart.

You might not be either.  But that's how you come across.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Wargor's picture

Well in that case, feel free to dispense with all of the social justice you have decided in your eminent wisdom we deserve for our arrogance.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Cmarti1961's picture

In my best Mel Kiper voice; Todd,Todd, Todd, Todd!  Admittedly, commenting in this thread is an indication of nerdness.....and to question the plot twists of a fantasy is trivial.  However, it's just folks talking about said plot twists, not arrogance.  It's been a great show/run, and this is a conversation on what we like or don't like about how it turns out.  Just nerds having fun!

I am not very smart, but I recognize that I am not very smart.

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elitesmithie's picture

This sounds like when someone goes to a football thread and says "There are homeless people in the world how can you be mad teenagers lost to teenagers from Michigan". Yea you are right but kind of misses the point.

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SonOfBuckeye's picture

"[W]illing suspension of disbelief" ... does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.” He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying (more or less willingly) to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed.
- Tolkien

The problem with GoT's last few seasons is that events seem less a function of the internal logic of the world and its characters and more a product of the writers thinking in ad hoc fashion, "wouldn't it be cool if ..." The stories now feel clumsy in a way that constantly reminds me the writers are just offstage pulling the strings. It shatters the effect they want to create.

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CincyBuck's picture

I have a problem with changing physics with no explainable reason behind it.

^ This.  One can accept the presence of magical stuff, with all other rules being the same (e.g., gravity). 

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

I can't believe I'm going to do this.

Every time Dany or Jon ride a dragon, the laws of physics are violated.  Centifugal Force alone would pull the riders off the dragon back when its only the riders hands that hold them on. (no saddle or stirrups).  NO ONE, not even The Hound has the hand strength to hold onto the back of a dragon and keep the rider from falling off.  particularly when you see some of the manuevers that the dragons due in E3 and 4.  But that's ok.  Its a fictional story.  And within the world of GRRM, it works.  Its all good.  

But God Knows we can't have a pirate fire a weapon that can destroy a ship or hit a dragon!  God No!  That's just too much!

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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CincyBuck's picture

I mean, it is just a show.  And your point about holding onto something while travelling at high rates of speed is well taken. 

But the overall point is suspension of disbelief isn't an all-or-nothing thing.  I have an easier time buying the dragon problem.  Hell, maybe dragons have built-in foot holders.  Much more difficult time buying that ballistas -- which were real weapons in the real world -- could bat 100% against a dragon, high up in the air, and without being seen.  Despite the fact that they were, essentially, slightly more accurate catapults in the ancient world.  I also think the Arya plot conventions are...  a bit tough to buy.  Of course, where someone draws the line (of what is a satisfying/justified plot twist and what isn't) is a matter of preference.

Or maybe some have no line at all.  Kind of like Harry Potter, where anything that happened was just magic.  In which case the writers could just have Tyrian morph into Optimus Prime, and conquer King's Landing himself on behalf of the Transformers -- which, on second thought, might be kind of awesome.

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Wargor's picture

How lame to use Transformers.  We all know a rift from the snap will open up a portal dropping the guantlet into Hot Pie's soup and he will use it to become to first Cylon-Sith to turn the Federation into a Galaxy-wide Empire.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

You can’t have it both ways. Either you accept  that the physics are “squishy”, or you reject it all. Since you accept my observation about holding onto the dragons back, you can’t bitch about other squishiness in the series.  It just makes you a complainer.  And that’s been my point the whole time. You are being over scrupulous about it all.  Just sit back and enjoy the story.  And don’t be such a miserable git.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
Jsnyde45's picture

The problem is that the writers never established precendnce of the scoripions. We know that targs can ride dragons because grrm had established that in his writing. Whenever someone says "well it's a TV show, so..." That means the writing is shitty. And it's a big deal because when d&d were piggybacking off of George the show was phenomenal. Now, since they are past George the writing is not even comparable. 

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saintstephen11's picture

unfortunately Todd can't grasp what is so evident to the rest of us.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Oh, I grasp what you' saying.  I just think you're morons for saying it.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
CincyBuck's picture

You can’t have it both ways. Either you accept  that the physics are “squishy”, or you reject it all.

Not at all accurate.  It isn't all or nothing.  I accept that dragons exist in GoT.  However, if Sansa suddenly flew from the ground for no good reason a la Neo in the Matrix, and 1,000 Agent Smiths showed-up, I'd call BS. 

Since you accept my observation about holding onto the dragons back, you can’t bitch about other squishiness in the series.  It just makes you a complainer.

Not really.  Everybody draws their own respective lines of what is/isn't possible.  I don't know a single thing about riding a dragon or what their backs do/don't have to latch onto.  I do know how gravity works and how it -- and other forces in physics -- impact a flying projectile.  So I'm more willing to suspend disbelief on the former than the latter.  Generally speaking, it's a lot easier to suspend disbelief regarding something that has no grounding in reality.  Doesn't mean that everyone needs to agree.

Just sit back and enjoy the story.  And don’t be such a miserable git.

To the former, I am.  To the latter, I don't know what a "git" is, but I'm not miserable. 

Candidly, I'm pretty disinterested compared to the spectrum of GoT watchers.  I probably would've stopped watching it awhile ago had it not been for family members being super interested in the series.  I've said several times I'm looking forward to it being over so the BS attempts to hype it can stop.

That said, after seasons of building all of this crap up, the writers are appropriately subject to high scrutiny in wrapping it all up.  As with any story, it should be somewhat relatable, believable, compelling, etc.  I think things are fine thus far this season -- with a few difficult-to-believe moments.  Minor critiques don't mean it's a terrible show or that it isn't enjoyable to watch.

More importantly, this idea that one can't question any inconsistency in a story after it has deviated from law of physics once (or even multiple times) is pretty ridiculous.  And a bit of a disrespect to good/great writers.  They go to great lengths and leverage a lot of creativity to construct these alternate worlds, universes, etc.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Every time Dany or Jon ride a dragon, the laws of physics are violated.  Centifugal Force alone would pull the riders off the dragon back when its only the riders hands that hold them on.

There's no such thing as "centrifugal force." It's an apparent or fictitious force. I believe you mean centripetal acceleration.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

HS
Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

HS
BGSUBuckeye08's picture

So I have a theory regarding the ambush of Dany's fleet by Euron. I believe that Sansa is a traitor and that she sent a raven to King's Landing informing them that Dany would be traveling to Dragonstone by sea. Remember, Sansa was in the war council when it was discussed that Jon would head to KL via the King's Road and Dany would take her fleet from Whiteharbor to Dragonstone. Therefore, she informed Cersei and Euron of Dany's plan which allowed Euron to lay in wait to ambush Dany's fleet and dragons. I believe Sansa is so against Dany that she wished to have her killed before she took the Iron Throne knowing that her death would cause Jon to go nuts, kill Cersei, and take the Iron Throne in Dany's honor. Sansa is basically Littlefinger 2.0 at this point and this theory seems like a very Littlefinger thing to do. Thoughts?

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Jumar's picture

Interesting theory. I think her sabotage is more along the lines of letting Tyrion know who Jon really is.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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BGSUBuckeye08's picture

I believe she is working multiple angles with the same end result in mind. By informing Tyrion of Jon's parentage (and by proxy, Varys) she is laying the groundwork for Jon to displace Dany regardless of whether she dies or not. However, her job of promoting Jon becomes significantly easier if Dany took a Scorpion bolt to the dome from Euron. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Dany will defeat Cersei but before she can take the throne Sansa will use her Dark Phoenix powers to kill Dany and her dragon.

Shandy is not beer

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

I like that theory a lot, good call.  Would also make me feel better about being so annoyed every time Sansa talks this season if she becomes a mini Cersei.  I'm already kind of hoping she dies.

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elitesmithie's picture

I could see that. In her mind no matter what happens in KL she has an enemy. In her mind Cersei may be the easier one to defeat after the fact than Dany and her dragons. Plus this doesn't technically directly put Jon in danger since he wasnt there. I don't think the writers have the stones to do this though.

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Frimmel's picture

I think that is really out there and just trying to hamster up a reason for their writing the story so they could save on dragon effects in the next episode.

Daenerys and Sansa might not be getting along but they are not yet outright enemies. Sansa hasn't been shown to be a dummy and I don't think she'd put what's left of the Northern and Vale armies and Jon Snow in a bind by intentionally taking away a dragon and getting part of the force needed to siege King's Landing killed. 

If the ambush fails, and someone rats her out? If the ambush doesn't fail and someone rats her out? How does killing a dragon, sinking Dany's ships, and drowning part of her force help Jon Snow take King's Landing and kill Cersei? 

If they have the means to kill dragons at Dragonstone they have the means to kill them at King's Landing. No need to put yourself in danger with open betrayal when the desired outcome: dead Cersei, dead Dany, dead dragons, Jon Snow on the Iron Throne could be had with no effort or danger and greater likelihood of success for Jon Snow. 

It is not a very Littlefinger thing to do because she does not in point of fact gain by doing it and she harms her ability to achieve her other goals. Terrible theory. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Sansa hasn't been shown to be a dummy

*ahem*

Shandy is not beer

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Frimmel's picture

That was when she was still Little Bird. Now she's not Little Bird. Suggesting you don't march battle weary and wounded troops south is not being a dummy. Getting your allies ambushed is being a dummy. Does Sansa even care to sit the Iron Throne? She seems quite content to be Lady of Winterfell. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Suggesting you don't march battle weary and wounded troops south is not being a dummy

I think that was less about wanting to give her army some R&R, and more about stalling because she doesn't trust Dany

Shandy is not beer

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BGSUBuckeye08's picture

Dany and Sansa are as close to outright enemies as two people who are not actively engaged in war against one another can be. Sansa is in active rebellion against Dany and committing treason by attempting to usurp Dany's claim to the Iron Throne by blabbing Jon's parentage about the Seven Kingdoms. And I didn't say she signed the note "love Sansa". It would be entirely possible for her to send a note to KL via Raven without revealing her identity. 

And how would she not gain by doing it? If the result ends up with Dany dead, that massively helps her cause. Her desire at this point is quite clear, Dany does not sit on the Iron Throne at all costs. If Jon and Dany lay siege to KL together and Dany claims the throne, it will be much more difficult to have her removed and have Jon sat on the Throne in her stead. However, if Dany is dead then there are no other logical suitors to sit on the Throne besides Jon. Additionally, if Jon sits on the Throne then Sansa's power multiplies. If Dany sits on the Throne, Sansa is nothing more than the Lady of Winterfell, if that. 

While a reduction of the army does not help Jon immediately take KL, I don't think Sansa is particularly concerned about that. A reduction in force suits Sansa's purpose of a wanting a prolonged siege of KL to starve out the city rather than a frontal assault. It would also allow the Northern Army to rest like she proposed in at the War Council meeting. With Dany out of the picture she can no longer manipulate Jon as Sansa has already accused her of and Sansa would be in a better position to pull the strings herself. Not to mention the fact that Arya is currently on her way to KL to kill Cersei anyway. If Arya succeeds, you won't need dragons or a large army to take the Throne. 

To cover her bases, in case the ambush of Dany's fleet doesn't result in Dany's death, she also told Tyrion about Jon's true identity. This information in the hand of Tyrion (and Varys) is good regardless of whether Dany is alive or not but particularly if she is not.  

Chaos is a ladder and Sansa is creating her share of chaos. Take her comment to Jamie regarding Cersei's execution for example, don't you think that was intentional to manipulate Jamie to return to KL? He's either going there to kill Cersei himself or to return to her side, either way it suits Sansa's purpose of either removing Cersei or placing all her enemies in one location and away from the North. 

“Don’t fight in the North or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you’ve seen before.” Littlefinger to Sansa in S7. Sansa is living by these words now. 

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Frimmel's picture

You've decided that Sansa betrayed Jon and Daenerys and have created a justification for her to have done so. Betraying Daenerys in this way creates the possibility of not taking King's Landing. Of Cersei winning and of not having an army to fight with if Cersei then decides to come north. 

By telling Tyrion she creates the possibility that Jon can be put on the Throne over Daenerys. But they still have to take King's Landing and betraying Daenerys hurts taking King's Landing. 

You're trying to give Sansa credit for being smart and in my opinion all of things you're suggesting are not smart moves. And Sansa has the option of bending the knee to Daenerys and just keeping on being Lady of Winterfell. 

You're just scheming for the sake of scheming here. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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BGSUBuckeye08's picture

You're damn right I'm scheming for the sake of scheming. Its a theory, one that I believe makes some sense. But then again it could be 100% wrong. 

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logamaniac's picture

to be fair im not sure Sansa cares about the rest of the realm.  If she can get Dany dead and entice Jon to return north due to not having the force or will to take KL I think shed consider that a victory.  Im pretty sure she's said she only cares about the northerners at this point

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

BGSU, never considered this but it's a brilliant theory. And when Sansa gave those two girls to Clegane and Tormund it reminded me of something Littlefinger would do. Question I have now is this, would Sansa also set up Jon for failure because he is not a Stark?

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Frimmel's picture

Why would she set Jon up for failure? Jon on the Iron Throne is good for her and The North. Jon is her cousin. He's still like a brother and family to her. Jon isn't her enemy Daenerys is. Without Jon what loyalty does Daenerys have to The North? Daenerys doesn't owe The North in The Dragon Queen's Mind. The North owes Daenerys. When did Jon stop being on Sansa's side? 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Just touching on the fact that Sansa seems to be playing the game like Littlefinger did -- ruthlessly. She keeps surprising me so I am curious if Jon telling her his parentage might blow up in his face with her or not. Littlefinger tended to use information like that to gain things. Didnt think I'd see Sansa have prostitutes around. But she did.

Of course I could WAY off but it's clear Sansa and Cersei are the ones playing chess here.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Wargor's picture

Still a cousin.  Which if that kind of thing mattered to them might be closer than bastard half-brother.

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NavyBuckeye91's picture

Jon for failure because he is not a Stark?

He's as much Stark now as he was before.

"You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, & in the manner in which you live.
So, live. Live. Fight like hell. And when you get too tired to fight then lay down and rest and let somebody else fight for you. "
- Stuart Scott

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Whether it was Sansa or not, obviously someone leaked that info out of the war room. 

-Sansa?  

-Varys?

-Tyrion? 

Who else was in the room that would have a vested interest in the ambush?  

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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Jumar's picture

Side note JohnnyKozmo - I am in Baltimore this week for work and ate at G&M restaurant. Very good crab cakes.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

Some of the best there.  A little jealous.  

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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Jumar's picture

Best crab cake I've ever had and really good baklava dessert.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Hopefully they didn't use imitation crab meat

Shandy is not beer

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Wargor's picture

I'm not sure I buy that.  Hurts the chances of taking King's landing.  If you are in the war-room you presume you can always put a dagger in her back.  Cersai is definitely evil and those people know they need an army to beat her. 

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elitesmithie's picture

Sansa has the north and the vale should she choose to, plus the North North people.

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JohnnyKozmo's picture

So it was just complete luck for Euron to be sitting there?  That’s like sitting in a deer stand hoping a yeti comes buy with an army of unicorns.  

You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton

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logamaniac's picture

Well it could just as easily be explained by lazy writing

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Crumb's picture

I 'm afraid Logamaniac is right. And I actually think the multitude of fan theories that would sprout up on YouTube and elsewhere would keep this show going despite what they put on TV sometimes and in the last season, knowing there is not going to be another, that parachute is no longer there. 

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Crumb's picture

I would love that to be true but unfortunately I think it'll be chalked up as nothing. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Or maybe Cersei anticipated Dany being too impatient and is playing a better game of chess? As much as I hate Cersei she is a brilliant thinker.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Crumb's picture

Which is why I think she wouldn't divide her forces and would have kept them in KL to bolster their defenses. She knows her best hope is dissension in the alliance arrayed against her, it's part of why she killed Missandei but did nothing to Tyrion. She's wanted him dead a long time so her sparing him in my view had a purpose behind it. 

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Jsnyde45's picture

If she was that brilliant she would have ended the war right there at the gates of Kings landing. Her biggest threat staring her in the face and lets her, her hand, her best general, and her effing dragon walk? Makes zero sense. 

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Crumb's picture

Yeah, but I still think she purposely spared Tyrion. If she thought killing him there would have made Dany's army charge without being a full strength and given her a chance to take out her last dragon she would have done it. But she knew Tyrion enough to know that keeping him alive that he'd give a crap about the people of KL and hamstring Dany's desire to just burn it to the ground. 

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Yeah, except she hired Bronn to kill him, so...

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Crumb's picture

Then why not kill him when he steps in range to try and save Missandei? It's not like killing him then somehow hurts her. If she thinks he's giving good advice to Dany then you've just taken out two of her best people for the price of one. Maybe it'll piss off Dany to charge into Cersei's well prepared defenses and kill her right then and there. Both help her. She had to believe letting him live helped her more. 

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aboynamedtracy's picture

No, she let him live because the goddamn showrunners need him to still be alive and actions no longer have consequences or even have to make sense. Characters aren't who we've come to know them to be, they behave as needed to advance to the next "cool shot bro, high 5' moment.

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Crumb's picture

Aboynamedtracy, that's fair. It says a lot about the show runners when message boards are filling in their plot holes better than they easily could themselves with a single line of dialogue. Exposition might even be better than idiotic silence. 

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Brandon26841's picture

"Why didn't Cersei just kill Dany / Tyrion / the small gathering of Unsullied at the gate, and fire all of the scorpions at Drogon?"

A lot of people are asking that. It would have been an easy fix to all of her problems. I think the reason she didn't is pretty obvious though... they needed to have two more episodes. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

As much as I hate Cersei she is a brilliant thinker

If so, then Cersei is easily the dumbest "brilliant thinker" in the show:

  • Her plan to arrest Eddard Stark and have him sent to The Wall started the War of the Five Kings
  • Her plan to defend Kings Landing from Stannis' fleet was to throw wildfire at his ships. Bronn explained why this was a stupid idea
  • She elevated the High Sparrow to re-establish and arm the Faith Militant because she was jealous of Margaery Tyrell's relationship with Tommen.
  • She had Joffrey remove Barristan the Badass from the Kings Guard (Dany probably would have been killed by the Harpies if she hadn't done this).
  • Her plan to stop Sansa from marrying Loras Tyrell nearly resulted in her own arranged marriage to Loras. It also created a rift between herself and Tywin
  • Her plan to kill Robert Baratheon was to have Lancel get him drunk during a boar hunt. The odds of this working were infinitesimally small
  • Her plan to have Jamie join the Kings Guard instead of marrying Lysa Tully so he could stay in Kings Landing with her, resulted in Tywin resigning as The Hand to the Mad King, returning to Casterly Rock and taking Cersei with him. So much for staying close to Jamie

Safe to say most of her "smart" decisions as of late (ever since Tyrion escaped and killed Tywin) have come from Qyburn and/or Euron (battle tactics)

Shandy is not beer

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Frimmel's picture

How smart is any woman who knowingly bangs her brother? 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Figured that went w/o saying... But yeah, her brother and cousin (Lancel)

Shandy is not beer

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Crumb's picture

I like your theory. It's pretty well thought out and would be very interesting, which alas is why I don't think it's what will play out in the last two episodes. 

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Crumb's picture

FWIW I've thought Dany is a goner the second Arya killed the Night King. It's just my take but when she killed him, I asked myself later; 'Was that because she's so lethal? (Which is what I hope they were thinking, and is the reason in my mind) or was because they decided Dany was going to die and didn't want to make themselves seem sexist by having Jon live and kill the Night King. 

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Jsnyde45's picture

Dany has been a goner for a lot longer than that imo. Jon is the hero of the story, Dany his adversary. The song of ice and fire. 

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Crumb's picture

Maybe But this vilification of her in the final season seems a little too rushed and a little too much of a reach. 

I mean, I know it's hindsight but she would have been better off ignoring Jon and taking out Cersei when she got to Westeros. 

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Hanawi_'s picture

Agree. I'm rooting for Dany to win. Think she's been screwed over because she decided to give a shit about the North and not just blasting the Red Keep as soon as she got to Westeros.

I'm kind of wondering if Tyrion is playing both sides at the moment. There had to be a shocking end for TV purposes. I'm trying to think of the most inane one these guys could come up at this point. Because that's probably what will happen.

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Crumb's picture

Exactly. If she had just let Jon fight the Night King alone, the North would be on the Wall and in better shape than the Night's Watch was against the Wildlings and she'd have her entire Dothraki and Unsullied Armies, all three dragons, the Tyrells, and Dorne, while Cersei would only have KL, no Golden Company, and the Iron Fleet would be at the bottom of the sea, she'd be surrounded with no way out. 

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

With no unsullied or dothraki, how long would Winterfall last?  Five Minutes?  And then the WW would be marching south to defeat Dany and then Cersei with a wraith version of all the northern heroes.  Yeah, that would work out well.  The ultimate divide your force blunder.  The only option they had militarily was to stand together.  Its why they had hoped for Cersei to join them.  The fact she betrayed them may have been inevitable.  But the Targeryan forces going north was really the only way to beat the NK militarily, other than more of your lamented unrealistic writer's magic.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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Brandon26841's picture

I agree with this. People keep talking about the sacrifice Dany made by fighting for the north against the Night King and the WW's first... but it was something she was going to have to deal with one way or another eventually anyway. Sure, she had a choice, but it wouldn't have been long before the dead army got down to King's Landing. 

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Did you really just hang your hat on the military might of the Dothraki as having been key to the defense of Winterfell? That's pretty rich given you somehow think other ppl are morons and yet we actually saw, on screen, the Dothraki get obliterated in under 2 mins.
The real answer is that the northerners could have defended Winterfell for quite a long time with a sound strategy. You know, like perhaps by keeping their forces behind a well fortified wall. Are you keeping up with me so far? And then maybe, actually actively trying to kill the Night King instead of hoping he shows up exactly where they need him to be at exactly the right time for Arya to unleash her newly discovered teleportation abilities.
So maybe give your balls a tug and get over yourself, and let the ppl who identify bull shit for what it is have their say.

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Todd-Not Boeckmann's picture

Your tactical military knowledge maybe legendary in your own mind, but the STRATEGIC ramifications of what you're saying is totally moronic.  Nice Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

jebes Michigana

jebi rak

Ako ne možete postavljati bez gluposti ... nemojte

Ako vièeš na suce, ti si šupak
 

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CTBuckeyeFan's picture

Left side of the mouth: "You guys are morons for questioning anything the GoT writers put on screen."

Right side of the mouth: "Without the Dothraki, Winterfell easily falls."

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saintstephen11's picture

according to Todd nothing has to make any sense because the show has dragons ... and they don't exist in the real world.

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Crumb's picture

How would the Night King have ever gotten past the Wall that had been holding him back magically for thousands of years? If Dany just doesn't believe Jon then he never goes north of the wall to try to capture a wight to convince her and Cersei, if he never does that than Viserion never joins the NK's army, and he never has the power he needs to take down the Wall. And let's say he attacks the Wall like the Wildlings did earlier. The entire North and Wildlings would be defending said wall and the gate at Castle Black blocked. So there would be a stalemate there that her forces could've helped brake when there was no longer a threat in the rear. 

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logamaniac's picture

We don’t know the undead dragon was what allowed him to bypass the wall as a barrier.  We don’t know that he wouldn’t have been able to bring it down anyway considering he marched all the way to the wall to begin with.  

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Crumb's picture

True, but we're forced to make assumptions. The Night King only showed up personally at things when he had what appeared to be overwhelming force. And I may be wrong, but I don't think he can get past the wall without the power of an undead dragon. 

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Jumar's picture

I think marking Bran got him past the wall. Similar to how he killed the previous three eyed raven. He couldn't get to him until Bran was marked.

If you continue to think what you always thought, you will continue to get what you always got. #AlumforStaff

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logamaniac's picture

Exactly, for whatever reasons the wards barring him were broken.  I think that’s why he went on the offensive, given the story we have seen unfold so far. The dragon just made it easier. 

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Crumb's picture

Respect the take. I still don't think he gets past the wall without Viserion, warding effectiveness aside. 

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BurningRiverBuckeye's picture

Not sure if this was covered yet or not, but there's some speculation there could be more dragons which could be the reasoning behind Eurons shock in the Ep 5 trailer. 

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27414500/game-of-thrones-season-8-th...

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Frimmel's picture

Three small dragons and one big dragon and a comet. That would make the big dragon Daenerys aka Mother of Dragons and then the three eggs she hatched and the comet which heralded their return. That image is of the past not a portent of the future. 

You've got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Yup, the image is depicting the rebirth of Daenerys when she emerged from Khal Drogo's funeral pyre with 3 baby dragons - it most certainly is not showing events yet to come.

Unlike the previous seven season's which used the astrolabe for a mini history lesson in chronological order (Doom of Valeria -> Roberts Rebellion -> Robert on the throne) the astrolabe for season 8 runs in reverse (Viserion destroying the wall -> The Red Wedding -> Rebirth of Dany).

Shandy is not beer

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logamaniac's picture

the theory that there are more dragons, currently alive no less, is shit thrown against a wall.  there would be reports of wild dragons terrorizing a populous and we would hear them discussed in the show as well.  Also adding 3 more dragons would add to the CGI expense and defeat the purpose of removing rhaegal out of nowhere for seemingly that exact reason.

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Spartan13's picture

I understand there are things to nit pick that don't make sense in the show but even more egregious mistakes were made in the first four seasons and people were willing to ignore and call it the best show ever to turn around and say is ruining this season. In the battle of the blackwater Davos sails the entire fleet into the bay and doesn't suspect a trap, something book Davos said was a stupid thing to do when he wasn't in charge. In season one within one episode Ned Stark told Renly Baratheon to leave and he wont accept his help taking over the Red Keep and Joeffery only to turn around and ask Littlefinger to get to gold cloaks to help him control the Red Keep and Joeffery. Season 4 has Stannis land at East Watch with his 4,000 men, rush his men hundreds of miles west to castle black and sneak up on 100,000 wildlings who had giants and siege weapons and beat them instantly. Battle of the Bastards which is loved by almost everybody had to be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen, a literal mountain of corpses in one spot and then Jon's entire army was surrounded and WunWun couldn't break through a line of men 5 deep? To be followed by Ramsay choosing to kill a dying giant instead of shooting Jon when he had a clear shot? Ridiculous. 

I understand questioning the show but it's a tv show you cant be 100% realistic and the show has never been 100% realistic. The explanation that "Danny forgot" about Euron's fleet is annoying but no worse than Davos sailing an entire fleet of ships into a choke point. If you hate watch the show you will find what you want and you can nitpick every single detail and it will end up bad. I have enjoyed this season so far, not a fan of how The Long Night ended but it was a fantastic 9/10 episode, episode 2 and 4 were both great and no worse than 8/10. Jamie not killing Cersei would be a huge mistake by the show runners and the only thing that could ruin this season for me, in the book Jamie hates Cersei already and porbably wouldn't hesitate to kill her, she also threatened to kill him last season so if they make him love her again I will join the this season sucks train. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Davos sails the entire fleet into the bay and doesn't suspect a trap

Davos was expecting a full-on naval battle, it's not like the thought they were going to be sneaking up on anyone. He fully expected to lose men and ships. If anything I'd question the wisdom of Stannis putting Davos in charge of his fleet - he's just a smuggler with no combat experience.

Had it not been for Tywin showing up with the Lannister army Stannis would have taken Kings Landing.

In season one within one episode Ned Stark told Renly Baratheon to leave and he wont accept his help taking over the Red Keep and Joeffery only to turn around and ask Littlefinger to get to gold cloaks to help him control the Red Keep and Joeffery

Renly wanted Ned to arrest Robert's "kids" and start a coup in order to back Renly's claim to the throne; whereas Ned considered Stannis (as Renly's older brother) the rightful successor to Robert.

Ramsay choosing to kill a dying giant instead of shooting Jon when he had a clear shot? Ridiculous.

Ramsay was just a sadistic POS, he killed Wun Wun just to piss off Jon:

Shandy is not beer

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Spartan13's picture

In the books Davos isn't given command of the fleet some random lord is. Davos said it was dumb to sail the entire fleet into the bay as it could be a trap(wildfire) and they should send a couple scout ships in first to see what it looks like is going to happen. Davos was angry at how stupid the commander of the fleet was for doing exactly what he did in the show which was stupid. Davos should have been in charge of the fleet because he is smart, then he became stupid for the point of the plot. Stannis would have won based on far superior numbers. 

Ned says at the end he will not dishonor Robert by shedding blood in his halls and dragging children from their beds. Regardless of who he supported he did with Littlefinger and the gold cloaks what Renly wanted him to do with his men. He already knew Stannis should be king. Nothing changed within a few scenes to do this dishonorable thing with Littlefinger and ignore Renly. If he never wanted it to turn to violence because of his honor no reason for it to be allowable hours later.

Killing WunWun was stupid when he could have killed Jon instead. How dumb is it to kill somebody who is going to die anyways when you could easily kill the commander who led to your defeat. Ramsey was dead no matter what but to justify that is just silly. Imagine if the Night King walk up to Bran and Arya standing next to eachother and killed Bran for Arya to get an easy kill. How dumb would that be lol

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Spartan13's picture

And my point isn't these scenes are bad. But if we nitpick like people are for this season Battle of the Blackwater is probably the dumbest battle in the entire series, book Davos got mad at some random idiot for doing what show Davos does. But as a rational person I understand how difficult it would be to show advanced naval tactics, 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Ramsay choosing to kill a dying giant instead of shooting Jon when he had a clear shot? Ridiculous

So you wanted the No. 1 main character of the entire show to die in that battle to win back his home? That's a bit ridiculous. Twenty seconds later Ramsay agrees to the 1-on-1 with Jon (after mocking him before the battle) because Ramsay likely thought he could take Jon (which would have been more satisfying for him to kill all the Starks).

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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Spartan13's picture

You are missing the entire point of my post. Now in season 8 people are picking apart these moments. No they should not have killed Jon and that was a good scene. It was unrealistic though and nobody cared. Now that it is season 8 people are mad that Cersei didn't shoot Danny and tyrion with the scorpions during their meeting at kings landing. Both scenes are better that they had the characters so close together despite it being kind of unrealistic. I am not mad at either one. But if you are mad about season 8 doing the same thing as this scene with Ramsey and Jon you are being silly. 

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

Speaking for myself, yes the first 4 seasons had some dumb moments / plot stupidities but they were vastly outnumbered by the number of great scenes / awesome plot curves. These last few seasons have been the exact opposite: lots of dumb moments, very few great moments.

Shandy is not beer

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Hovenaut's picture

Whew, this discussion took flight...

I could nitpick and/or prognosticate here, but I'm just going to sit back and enjoy these last two episodes.

Expecting some disappointment, some surprise, and some satisfaction, but all in all this show has been immensely entertaining.

Hindsight is, and in, 2020

There are times where the worst thing that can be spread is misinformation

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Mastro16's picture

What would I have to offer to get you to complain about something?

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Hovenaut's picture

I'd have a problem with an extended offseason...

Hindsight is, and in, 2020

There are times where the worst thing that can be spread is misinformation

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Sanantonefan's picture

I'll just watch the show and enjoy, but it is also kind of fun watching you guys smack each other around over fiction. The popcorn is good in either case! lol

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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Wargor's picture

It's the off-season.  We don't have buckeye football to get sanctimonious about and then get sanctimonious about the sanctimony, so this is what we have.  

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Sanantonefan's picture

I get a kick out of it. HAHA #firetheoffseason

You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Yeah, if you're able to enjoy it, more power to you. It's the dismissive nature of some of the commenters that is ridiculous. The show isn't what it was. Maybe you're ok with that, but it's also reasonable to feel let down.

Hell, even the cast doesn't like the ending...

https://youtu.be/UpKrCgejlgQ

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saintstephen11's picture

The only consolation is that we might get the next book soon.  You know GRRM isn't ending the books like the show.

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Considering GRRM has actively tweeted about other shows while an episode of GoT is in progress, I'd agree that it's a safe bet he'll go in a different direction.

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NoskerHouseRules's picture

Of course he will.  He will write the fan service book after he has watched D&D  be destroyed for unpopular decisions.  He will go on press tours talking about how he wouldn't have ended it that way, although he hired D&D because they properly guessed how he wanted to end it. 

truth > confirmation

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QuadCitiesBuckeye's picture

How I want it to end:

How I think it will end:

Shandy is not beer

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

Winner of the Iron Throne: Judge Art Vandelay.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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logamaniac's picture

I couldn’t finish that idiots video but he’s making subjective judgement.  There’s nothing in either response from Emilia or Kit that says they don’t like the finale.  

He also says the season has been a disaster, which obviously is bullshit.  

This dude just wants to hate and get views for spewing hot takes.  

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aboynamedtracy's picture

Your 3rd paragraph I absolutely agree with. As for whether or not the season has been a disaster, there is no shortage of people (me included) who definitely would consider 'disaster' to be an apt description. Others are enjoying though, and so be it.

But your first paragraph? I mean, neither said 'I hate it', but I'm not sure how you gathered either response was evenly remotely close to an endorsement. I mean, when asked to describe the ending in 1 word, Kit chose 'disappointing'. Hard for me to draw from that succinct statement that he liked how it turned out. Emelia had the opportunity to praise the show and chose to dodge the question; again, not exactly a vote of confidence.

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logamaniac's picture

well lets look at what kit said.  "disappointing".  one word, does it describe that he doesn't have a steady gig?  a paycheck?  get to hang out with the people hes been working with for over 9 years now?  know that fans of the show will miss it? 

I certainly don't know what you can extrapolate from that one word in that snippet of an interview but i cant imagine to understand what he means.

lets look at emilia's response of a sarcastic "best show/season ever!" (from memory because i wont gift that dbag any more views) Did we get any background on that or are we taking this guy using another snippet of nothing to prove his point?  Is she over all the Game of Thrones fans and/or their commentary about the work they've put in?  Is she being sarcastic because she's ready for another role?  Is she tired of being identified as the girl from Game of Thrones? 

Again I don't know what she meant but i certainly cant construe that shes speaking negatively about the last season in relation to the show as a whole, can you?

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aboynamedtracy's picture

The interviewer, not the dude with the YouTube post, but the woman holding the mic obviously took her response as a negative. So yeah, seems pretty clear to me. But we'll know soon enough regardless.

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CincyBuck's picture

If you don't already make GoT memes for a living, you should.  This and your post above are my favorite parts of this entire thread.

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Brandon26841's picture

I know there's already been a ton of bitching in this thread about how this season has been written (and I agree with a lot of it), and this is pretty much beating a dead horse, but I found this interesting.

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/9/18537794/game-of-thro...

In an interview published before the final premiere, D&D made it clear that they were the ones insisting on stopping at eight seasons and limiting the last two to a total of 13 episodes. “[HBO] said, ‘We’ll give you the resources to make this what it needs to be,’” Weiss said. Benioff added, “HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season.” But the showrunners refused. “We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that,” Benioff continued. “As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends.”

This season has undeniably felt rushed, and it's pretty obvious this season as well as last season should have been fleshed out to the standard 10 episodes each. I'm guessing it's just a combination of burnout, other projects they're wanting to work on instead (the Star Wars trilogy $$$), and the burden of having to come up with new source material since they were off of Martin's stuff, but I just think it's funny that they're like "let's hurry and wrap this shit up. We're almost at that arbitrary number of 73 total hours for the show we randomly predicted for it long ago". And it does show.

You can't please everyone, and I'm sure many people won't be happy with how this wraps up. Are long standing show's finales ever liked really? Regardless, I've still be thoroughly entertained this season, flaws and all. 

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IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY's picture

I haven't had any complaints with this season whatsoever. Episode 3 was easily the most riveting thing I've ever seen on TV and the political scheming that went on during the celebration party in E4 was another favorite. That requires good writing to weave all that together. I guess I am too old school where I am happy with just watching AND ENJOYING a great TV show (the likes of which will never be seen again in our lifetimes) instead of bitching about it like it's the worst thing to ever be put on TV. 

The funniest thing is the same people shitting on this season wont miss the last two episodes for damned sure.

"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski

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logamaniac's picture

My complaints are minor and few, I certainly don’t follow the hot take that this season is shit.  

How can anyone truly complain about anything until the season is over and we either find out we weren’t privy to all the goings on or we can say wtf. 

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Wargor's picture

"We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that,”

Really?  Don't want to claim it was always going to be 72 hours, 36 minutes, and 14 seconds?  Roughly speaking.

Seems like Gandalf claiming that Wizards are never late, they arrive precisely when the mean to.  Frodo's just too polite to call bullshit on him.  "Good job with all the knowledging, spells, and fireworks old man, but you are late."

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