A Slow Man's Defense of Dwayne Haskins, the Best Quarterback in the 2019 NFL Draft

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Hovenaut's picture

Not about to leg out (pause) any heavy research on it, but I'm inclined to think quarterbacks who have it upstairs and in their arm tend to last longer on Sundays than those who are tall on moxie and overhyped 40 yard dash times.

But that's just me.

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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RunEddieRun1983's picture

This x100 +10

If you've got the internal mechanics in your brain to work through progressions and keep your eyes down field, you're much more valuable to a franchise than if you sniff the slightest hint at pressure and you try and escape the pocket rather than shuffle and try and deliver a strike.

And Haskins has fantastic arm strength on top of that.

Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.

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CowCat's picture

Plus his no-wind-up quick release means he doesn't need to run away from pressure very much. The ball is already on its way.

"We get paid to score touchdowns, not kick field goals"
-- Urban Meyer

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buckeyepastor's picture

He isn’t a dual threat guy.  That’s all his speed means.  Still plenty fast to take off for 10 yards if warranted. Still fast enough to run toward the sideline and buy time before throwing the ball away or completing downfield.  How fast is Brees? How fast is Luck?  How fast is Darnold? Kirk Cousins? Flacco?  

Not wanting to get political here, but I don’t recall white QBs having their speed scrutinized as much. Maybe I’m wrong.  I often am. 

"Woody would have wanted it that way" 

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cdub4's picture

I do remember them making a deal of Andrew Luck's 40 time...Trubisky's also. Above 5 is pretty damn slow relatively speaking...I feel like most of the recent top QBs were under 5.0

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jpfbucks01's picture

Luck was a 4.59. Turbisky 4.67

Haskins time was the 5th slowest in the last 7 years. and the slowest in the last 3 years

The 4 guys slower were: Brandon Doughty of WKU in 2016 ran a 5.22, Sean Mannion Oregon St 2015 a 5.44, Jeff Matthews Cornell in 2014 ran 5.26, Landry Jones Oklahoma in 2013 ran a 5.11

5.09 is quite slow for an NFL QB

Some other noted non-running QBs - Sam Bradford ran a 4.79, Mark Sanchez - 4.93, Matt Stafford - 4.81, Joe Flacco - 4.84, Chad Henne - 4.92, Matt Ryan - 4.89, Jay Cutler - 4.77, Matt Leinart - 4.90, Aaron Rodgers - 4.71, Craig Krenzel - 4.84, Eli Manning - 4.90, Ben Roethliberger - 4.75

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Berg2004's picture

Tom Brady ran a 5.28 40 and I think things have turned out okay for him.

I’m actually surprised QBs run at all unless you are a Kyler Murray type QB. There seems to be little upside for the “pro-style” QBs.

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PRO8's picture

Enjoy the proof that Dwayne has a little bit in the tank.. nothing better than believing is actually seeing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdROgwACSoM

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BuckminsterFullback's picture

I have watched a fair amount of football in my life, and I have never seen a play that involved a QB starting in a 4-pt stance, then sprinting 40 yards in a straight line. The 40-yard dash time is greatly influenced by the start, and there is no reason for any QB to waste his time at perfecting his sprinter's start.

Why the NFL measures this performance for QBs is beyond me. The NFL is a multi-billion dollar enterprise, and they should have the resources to devise a new drill that better measures something that QBs do. For example: Standing with the body turned 90 degrees from the start line, and the football held with both hands at shoulder level (i.e. imitating the pose of a QB looking downfield), take off and run 15 yards. This drill would simulate stepping up in the pocket and trying to run for a first down on 3rd-and-8 (something that QBs actually need to do on occasion).

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

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CowCat's picture

Good idea, and I think Haskins has shown he can do that.

"We get paid to score touchdowns, not kick field goals"
-- Urban Meyer

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Brah Zhole's picture

Brah Haskins problem isn't that he's slow, or fast.  Fast sometimes gets you killed because you lean on it.  

His biggest problem is he lacks pocket awareness.  If the pocket is whole, and he finds a comfort spot, he's great at reading and delivering.  It's when the pocket starts to morph that he has problems.  He doesn't seem to be able to find new pockets, and reset himself in another area like a Rodgers, Brady, or Rapelisberger.  And I'm not sure this is a quality you learn with time, but maybe it is.  I just think you haven an innate sense of where you have to move to survive, and I'm not sure he does.

gabbagool

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NOLABuckeye's picture

The Saints don't care about Brees' or Haskins' speed.

Nothing cleanses the soul like a no call pass interference.

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45has2's picture

14 of the last 16 SB Champion QBs have been slow, immobile and winners. How fast is Tom Brady?

Censores irrumasti.

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PRO8's picture

That is why ttun didn't start him at QB , he was to slow...lol

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85ThruTheHeart's picture

I think Mr Mustard doesn’t know what a tenth is...

Look, “two or three tenths” of a second is a huge deal when it comes to 40 times, and when you factor in that Brady also said in the interview that he thought he ran a 5.25 at the combine, you’re talking about maybe six tenths!

"He has that look in his eye when it's time to start feeding the beast" UFM on EZE

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CreekBuck's picture

I don't know his release seems pretty fast to me?

You win with people.

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Bukirob's picture

I dont care if Dwayne runs a 5.04 or a 5.45 40  he is mobile enough to move around the pocket and that is ALL he needs he makes good reads and delivers the ball on time and on target.  END OF CONVERSATION

You WIN with people.

 

 

WW Hayes

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Trebor40's picture

I am not in anyway seeing the point to this topic by the NFL other than a last shot at Meyer and Ohio State, by being as negative as they can about the only thing left for them to be negative about! 

I would rather be on hand with 10 men then elsewhere with 10,000 - Timur Lenk

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OldTownBuckNut's picture

Smith HAD to be confusing Murray for Haskins. Nobody with his level of sports knowledge would say that Haskins was "more a runner than a thrower." Literally that's more Murray than Haskins, which is why I think he'll go later than Haskins, perhaps into later rounds even. Murray is an incredible ATHLETE, but an NFL caliber QB? Put me in the "undecided" category. He probably should have taken that baseball money. 

Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle. O-HI-O.

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BuckminsterFullback's picture

Smith HAD to be confusing Murray for Haskins.

I suspect that Smith was confusing Haskins for JT Barrett. I'd be surprised if Smith watches much college football.

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

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AZ Buckeye13's picture

You had me until you said Smith had a high level of sports knowledge...

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OldTownBuckNut's picture

Touche'.

Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle. O-HI-O.

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Dillon G's picture

Because Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were so damn fast.

#walkaway

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buckskin's picture

What??? His 40 time and form were excellent.

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MercyTex's picture

Their oversized foreheads create too much wind resistance to reach top speed. 

Our people are everywhere, Esto Dignus.

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BuckeyeGoneNuts's picture

It amazes me that collectively all the smart people in a multi-billion dollar business like the NFL can so easily be led off a cliff as a herd.  For some reason many of them have decided that speed is a all of a sudden a critical component of quarterback success.  I understand that game has changed (look at the college game), but all we've seen is that speed can be an asset.  There is simply no evidence whatsoever in the NFL to support the notion that a QB needs to be fast.  Not historically, not contemporary, not at all. Take a look at superbowl champions.  Take a look at successful QB's (not just superbowl winners, just successful in winning games), does speed seem at all as a common denominator? 

I can point to tons of QB's from the past that were incredibly slow (Marino anyone?), but people will say "the game has changed".  Ok, if it has changed so much, explain to me why the best QB's in today's game are still relatively slow?  (Brady, Brees, Big Ben, Rivers, Rogers and on and on).   Being fast can be a good asset (Cam Newton, Deshawn Watson come to mind), but the ability to quickly read and diagnose the defense and then accurately pass to the open man is a million times more important.  Speed can become a crutch where the player is too quick to use it to get out of trouble, and misses opportunities to make great passes.  For a QB, running around also gets you hit (hello Cam Newton, RGIII), so it can also be a liability.

I don't know if Haskins will ever be like Brady, Brees and those guys, but the idea that he's too slow to be a great QB is just plain stupid. 

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TURD_BUCKET's picture

Haskins will not lose any money because of his 40 time, period.

“Being average means you are as close to the bottom as you are to the top.” John Wooden

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southalabamabuckeye's picture

No one is considering drafting Haskins because of his running ability. He is being drafted to throw the football. Yes, I still have nightmares of John Elway scrambling for first downs against the Browns in the 80s, but his legs did not win him multiple Super Bowls. 

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navybucknut's picture

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady ran times slower than Haskins. His speed has nothing to do with his ability to throw the ball. The only point he even needs to worry about speed, is if he ends up on a team with a terrible O-line... He will do just fine and could be the best QB out of The OSU for some time!!

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NHBuckeye's picture

Dan Marino had a really quick release as well as great pocket presence.  He was slower than anything.  I'd take him on my team any day.  I see a lot of Marino qualities in Haskins.  Dwyane just needs to work more on his footwork in the pocket.  He will be a really good pro IMO.

Fields of Dreams

 

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Hovenaut's picture

Also thought of Marino - he was a statue after a few years into the NFL, but he read the field and released the ball quicker than anyone I can remember.

Working with a competent staff, and then putting in the work with technique and film study should serve Haskins well.

I'm not around that much, running exhausted and lost...

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Buxki84's picture

Phillip Rivers is similar. Very quick release and, good for him, he doesn't have to run.

I'd rather be a minute early than an hour early, 'cause I like to procrastinate.

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Zimmy07's picture

I think both of Marino’s knees were completely shot about halfway through his career 

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Steelydan54's picture

This entire debate in the media is to create narrative between the top 2 QB's in this years draft class. Nobody in an NFL front office cares about either of their 40 times. 

Steelybuck54

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buckeyedownunder's picture

The people that are still so concerned about Haskins pocket awareness were probably not paying close attention as the season progressed.  When his starts as a college QB were still in the single digits, he did have some issues. That was simply inexperience.  His pocket awareness took a big step forward his last 4 games. It is on the tapes.  If he had stayed in school one more year, his pocket awareness would have become a non topic as he further learned to step, slide, and move as he felt pressure and trust his linemen.

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Ole Uncle Charle's picture

Ahh Jimmy Johns.....instant diarrhea

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CowCat's picture

Worse than Taco Bell or White Castle?

"We get paid to score touchdowns, not kick field goals"
-- Urban Meyer

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nrobinsonpe's picture

If a WR (DK Metcalf) can run the cone and shuttle drills slower than Tom Brady and still be a top 10 pick, I'm convinced numbered athleticism is vastly overrated.

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Buxki84's picture

The team that takes Metcalf in the 1st round does so at their own peril. Just look at his numbers. 2017: 39 receptions, 646 yards (16.5 avg.), 7 TDs. 2018: 26 receptions, 569 yards (21.8 avg.), 7 TDs. Good numbers certainly, but with a deep draft at WR, there are comparable athletes with much better production.

I'd rather be a minute early than an hour early, 'cause I like to procrastinate.

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NW Buckeye's picture

He may have a slow 40 time, but what does this say about that defense up north?  View the clip from the 1:08 mark. 

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FrankTheGrimes's picture

My basketball coach in grade school would tell me I could unhook the piano I was dragging anytime now. Top 3 coach of my life.

“Feeling cold is psychological” -Woody

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AZ Buckeye13's picture

The Pro Football Hall of Fame is full of QBs who ran a 4.5 40 yard dash...

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cledaybuck's picture

That is maybe my favorite play by an Ohio State quarterback of all time, but if I'm being truthful, it's in part because my dumb ass laughs out loud at how absurd J.T. Barrett looks as he "outruns" the entire Minnesota Golden Gopher defensive secondary.

It's hard to run fast when you are bundled up because it is freezing in Minnesota.

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GlassCityBuckeyes's picture

I'm drafting the arm not the legs.

Noon games suck

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Buxki84's picture

Yeah, and John Ross is the greatest receiver in the history of the NFL. /s

I'd rather be a minute early than an hour early, 'cause I like to procrastinate.

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Chicago Connection's picture

The thing about football is that passing (as opposed to running) naturally provides QBs with a "multiplier effect" that no other position offers, which is perhaps the chief reason why good QBs are so highly valued

Thing is, no matter how fast a guy like Michael Vick or any other player can run, try timing their 40 yard dashes against a football that's thrown 40 yards down the field. Basically, the ball will get there in, oh, about a second or so.

Imagine a player who can run a 40 in under one second or thereabouts.

It doesn't exist.

However, the multiplier effect goes much farther than that, because a QB has the advantage of throwing to his choice of as many of five different receivers, all of whom might run blazing fast 40 yards dashes, thus effectively multiplying the speed of the QB because, in essence, their speed is his speed.

Furthermore, a good QB can throw a football through the air to any point on the field from sideline-to-sideline, and the ball doesn't need to avoid and tacklers or evade any traffic along the way (other than the threat of a DL or DB batting down the pass), whereas a running QB has to find his space and avoid lots of speedy, bloodthirsty defenders, which can kinda slow a guy down.

Of course, I'm not saying that the ability to run can't be a huge added bonus for a QB, although it often leads to the temptation to rely on it too much, and then, almost inevitably, the speedy QB sustains an injury from it, in which case, suddenly, all of the above intrinsic "multiplier effects" of speed are tossed out the window, or as the case may be, they're sitting on the sideline.

The other factor for QBs that's so often underappreciated (at least when it comes to speed-related discussions) is hand-eye coordination + throwing motion relative to quick thinking and the ability to read and respond to defenses at lightning speeds.

Thing is, no matter how fast a defender might be, like, let's say, Kalil Mack, if a slow-footed yet fast thinking QB like Tom Brady, or Dwayne Haskins, gets rid of the ball soon enough, all of that speed simply doesn't matter.

In other words, it ALSO has a positive multiplier effect in reverse inasmuch as it can negate the speed of a defense. In fact, it can literally slow them down as defenders start guessing about what the QB will do.

Now, why do we see these advantages?

Well, simply because the QB was faster in all the ways that matter.

And yet, ironically, fans and analysts alike will persist in saying a QB's slow whereas the defender's fast. This totally regards the fact that when it comes to speed, it's RELEVANT SPEED that matters most, not simply straight-line speed with your legs.

If that weren't the case, there's be a lot of track guys making bundles of money in the NFL at the QB position.

Again, it's a nice extra weapon for a QB to have in his arsenal, but it's a far less important weapon that all of the other speed assets mentioned above.

In fact, it's probably not even as important as the maneuverability of a QB, including the possession of speedy peripheral vision that allows a QB to see a pass rusher out of the corner of his eye.

In short, IMHO, while the speed of a QB definitely isn't irrelevant, especially in certain offensive schemes, it's generally overplayed to a silly, if not absurd, degree.

chicagobuckeye

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TnBuckeye1956's picture

This may have already been talked about on here but I tend to think Kyler Murray would not have even finished 3rd in the Heisman voting had he played in the Big Ten or the SEC where teams actually play defense. I think the Big 12 numbers tend to get inflated in that conference not to say that Murray isn't a very good athlete which he is and he may end up being a very good pro. And Haskins didn't go to OHIO STATE to play track. Good Luck to both of them.  

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