Good for him. I hope he succeeds. And it’s nice to not read a bunch of sour grapes.
4.31 for Jamel Dean. Safe to say Ohio State medical staff may have played that one a bit too cautiously.
— Jeremy Birmingham (@Birm) March 4, 2019
C'mon Birm... when Dean blew his other knee in 2016, before he ever played a snap at Auburn, I think the OSU doctors felt pretty good about their assessment.
In 2015, with the evidence they had, they made a judgment call. Erring on the side of caution and on the side of player health over the risk of further injury should be commended, not criticized.
“The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it.” – Theodore Roosevelt
I thought I remembered reading that the issue wasn't so much his ability to play in the short term, it was his long term prognosis. If he can't walk when he's 40, we'll know OSU was right.
I know this sounds a bit callous... but why would Ohio State care about how he's walking at 40? They wouldn't. "Can he help us within the next 5 years?" is the only question they'd be asking. A lot of football players aren't doing well at 40.
Because as physicians, they treat the whole patient. They have a duty to the human being,,which supersedes their duty to OSU football.
B/c tOSU isn't as callous as you are?
Bottom line is it should be up to the player when it comes to something like a knee, and I'm sure it is.
I honestly don't know the process in depth, but I don't see the doctors being like "we absolutely aren't going to let you play because your knee might be in pretty bad shape down the line". They might recommend him not playing. But a flat out "no" would have to come from the football program I'm assuming. Now if we were talking head injuries I could maybe see it.
Devon Bogard had 3 freaking ACL tears before he finally had to hang them up.
They didn't pull his scholarship. They medically disqualified him. It literally is your doctors job to tell you that your current behavior might have long term consequences.
Boy OSU docs blew that one.
Maybe not. Keep in mind that he blew out the other ACL the year he enrolled at Auburn. It's nothing short of a miracle that Dean is where he is today. Most players don't come back at that level, if at all, from that many ACL tears.
If the OSU docs thought he was possibly a danger to himself and a liability to the team by continuing, then we have to trust their judgement and decision.
Remember, hindsight is always 20/20.
Trust me! I'm an Engineer.
Danger to himself? It wasn't a neck or brain injury and he wasn't suicidal. It was his knee. Not saying OSU was wrong, but his situation wasn't as dramatic as you make it sound.
Good luck to him!
No, they made a judgment call and the football staff respected it. That's what you want in a clean program.
Good for him. It's good to see stories like this. Although I would like to see how our team doctors got this one so wrong.
Apparently you don't perform risk assessments in your line of work.
Glad to see Dean was able to overcome the risk observed and make it this far, especially after injuring his other knee.
I do actually perform risk assessments in my line of work. Now what specifically does that have to do with Jamel Dean being ruled medically ineligible by one team of doctors only to be approved by a different team of doctors and then going on to become a top NFL prospect. The team of doctors got it wrong, and I am curious as to how or why. What did they see and what did the Auburn doctors see differently? I realize that theres a bunch of confidentiality involved so I can never find out. But whats so wrong about being curious?
SEC pencil whipping
All Glory is Fleeting
thats a back alley story i would also be keen to read about some day if anyone ever got access and on the record accounts from the parties involved.
I would not characterize it as wrong but rather a different risk tolerance. What we don't see is how many times they made such a call and a person decided not to follow their advice and wound up with a serious injury. If you consider a risk decision as "wrong" because a bad outcome didn't occur, or conversely that you made the right decision if one did not occur, you are setting yourself up for a serious event sometime in the future; especially since the result of such a viewpoint is a reduction of the bar for risk acceptance.
Case in point is the Challenger event. NASA engineers assumed, becasue nothing bad had happened in the past under similar conditions that it was safe to launch. Successful launches reinforced the idea their analysis was correct and resulted in a reduction of the safety level and increqsed risk; which no one may have realized or if they did their concerns were downplayed. Feynman's appendix to eth Roger's Report is very enlightening on this very issue.
Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.
Everyone is wrong about something on occasion - some of us more regularly. The drs didn’t think a dean would recover well enough to play, or maybe that allowing him to do so would leave him arthritic and crippled at an early age. Whatever the reason, they were wrong, and Dean bounced back much better than anyone anticipated. Sometimes you’re wrong. I’m happy to see Jamel doing so well!
There are incompetent doctors just like there is incompetency in any line of work. Best wishes for Dean's NFL success.
Which docs were incompetent? We do not know what criteria either set used to make a decsion. It could very well be tOSU docs looked at him and decided that, even if he could play in his current condition, any future injuries could result in long term problems and thus did not clear him. They have to act in his best medical interests, just as Auburn's must. The AU docs may have felt there was less of a risk of short term or long term damage and thus cleared him. Either way, it's a judgement call. My one hope is that, in either case, the football staff did not sway the decision.
One the flip side, we do not have data on how many kids were cleared with similar medical histories and had career ending injuries that left them with long term side effects. One data point does not a trend make; nor is it something to base a decision on.
I do actually perform risk assessments in my line of work.
Then I have a feeling your Risk log has a lot more "accepts" than mitigate or avoid for risk response type.
Or in the case of OSU Medical - transfer....
Do you have some information that I don't? If so, would you be willing to share? Because I don't see how you could possibly be making assumptions about my tolerance for risk if you have the same information I do.
In any line of medical diagnoses, you will find a specialist to give the client-in this case Auburn University AND Jamel Dean-the diagnoses they want to hear. Did it work out in this case-absolutely-you don't die from an ACL or a bad ankle-and Dean bounced back physically. Do Dr. Feelgoods sometimes cause great harm to those to whom they peddle 'favorable' diagnoses to-just ask Prince, Elvis, Bob Marley, Tom Petty or Michael Jackson.
The entire sport of football is a "risk assessment."
At some point before age takes its toll on his athleticism, Dean may very well become too banged up to continue playing football, but the bottom line is that he was able to contribute at the college level.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
It's hard to imagine the work and commitment it takes to recover from a torn ACL let alone both. God bless the kid... go get 'em.
"The future is bright at Ohio State." - Urban Meyer 1/1/15
Way to go Jamel! Really wanted to see him have his chance at OSU but I’m so happy he got his chance at Auburn and became one hell of a player for them.
Just posting and hoping my comment isn’t deleted.
Knowing how Urban was I wouldnt be surprised if nothing was really that wrong with Dean he just landed in Urban's doghouse too early. Kamyrn Babb tore his ACL twice and still wasnt medically disqualified like Dean was.
"I find your lack of kalua disturbing" - Darth Lebowski
I don't know if it's the Buckeye curse, but it seems like we have way more than our share of ACL/knee injuries to our incoming recruiting classes. Just off the top of my head; Babb, Baldwin, Bosa, Grimes, and probably another half dozen, if I wasn't too lazy to research. I wonder if we just have bad luck, or if our experience is representative of all the players coming out of high school?
Congrats to Dean, I was disappointed that we never got to see him in S&G.
My aim, then, is to whip the Weasels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. - William Tecumseh Sherman (with apologies)
tOSU doesn't have any more or less injuries to recruits than any other D-1 football program, we just don't follow what is going on at USC or Mississippi State or Akron or Eastern Kentucky on an obsessive basis.
If I remember right, Dean had barely stepped foot on campus. What could he have possibly done to be in the doghouse that soon?
"We gotta go win this next game and make the State of Ohio proud!"-UFM
You can bet your ass there's more to this story. We already talked about this as soon then as he was cleared by Auburn
I'd hope you would be proud to be a tOSU fan b/c the program at least tries-not always succeeding-to be above board and to do the right thing by it's athletes in the long term. If not, you are just rooting for a jersey like SEC fans.
Man that 2015 class had some players in it.
Which is funny...isn't the 2015 class the one Meyer was really hard on? Or was that 2016? 2015 only had 4 players who didn't redshirt if I recall...Ward and Baker being 2...
You're right, it was the 2015 class. I know for a fact he's lamented about how members of that class were less disciplined off the field compared to other classes. I think they lacked some leadership, but they sure had/have some raw talent.
I was thinking the same exact thing. 2015 was the "cream filling of the oreo" class according to Meyer. Soft. Didn't live up to expectations, etc.
Hard to disagree really looking at the class in hindsight. Hilliard, Gibson, Cornell, EGW, Matt Burrell, Conner, Stump, Dean, Schmidt, Feder, Norwood, Alexander, Bowen... all of those guys either never made it to OSU (Dean), dealt with injuries (Hilliard, Conner, Alexander, Bowen) or just flat out did next to nothing / transferred (EGW, Burrell, Stump, Schmidt, Feder, Norwood) or underwhelmed (Cornell). Relatively bad class overall for the #7 ranked class in the nation (a decent amount of contributors were the lowest ranked recruits).
Lots of misses in that class as well. Guys who are no longer here or have been here without really contributing.
Glad to hear Jamel is getting his chance to play in 'the league'. good for him...
15-1 is SWEET!
Tear 2 ACL's and still rips off a 4.30 40 and 41 inch vert... impressive to say the least.
To do that with two two knees that haven't been injured is crazy. Some of these kids just come from a different gene pool
Best of luck Dean - looks like we'll be watching you on Sunday's
The off season bites !!
It's not a rivalry .............. it's a wreckoning.
Seattle Sounders 2019 MLS Champions
Just shows what betting on yourself can accomplish. Good for him.
Urban Meyer left an incredible legacy. 12/4/18 Ryan Day begins his.
It may not have worked out for Ohio State, but it sure did for Dean...and good for him.
I wish him continued success.
Hindsight is, and in, 2020
Appears you and Linga have a fan that wants to downvote MOD’s.
Wasnt that a huge can of Colt 45? I didnt know they had beer in Star Wars lol
Hate to break it to you but Star Wars wasn’t real and neither was Star Trek.
Spaceballs was real though.
flash gordon was the most real
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peidiwch â ffycin gyda'r Cymry
If I recall there was limited roster spots and space had to be made. Typical roster attrition. Don't want to say this was all due to over signing, but a couple guys had to go that year. Glad he landed on his feet and realized his dream.
It definitely had a strange feel to it. You gotta think that if they didn't have a number crunch to deal with he probably would have gotten a shot (Bosa / Babb / Grimes were all coming off ACL tears their senior years off the top of my head) because it's not like he wasn't talented. And I know not all ACL injuries are the same, but it doesn't really surprise if you've got to narrow it down to 85 before camp and this incoming kid's knees aren't looking too hot.
Reminds me of A.J. Alexander and now Malik Barrow getting medically disqualified only to play (or try to play) elsewhere right afterward. Injuries suck and if you're not a big time contributor they can be a death blow essentially.
And that's essentially the decider - if the player can help the program. Johnnie Dixon wasn't axed because Urban felt he could help the program and it was worth keeping him around. Even in that situation there was speculation for awhile whether Dixon would return. Others have been medically DQ'd because yes, they have injury issues, but getting the roster spot back is more valuable than seeing if certain players who likely won't play anyway will return from injury. It's a gentler way of processing a player who the staff believes has no future at the program.
For sure. I swear, every single year I figured "this is the year J.D. gets medically disqualified" but it just never happened. I guess the staff knew what they had there.
It's roster management. And it's smart (although unfortunate for the injured players of course)
They 86'd him within a couple of weeks of his arrival on campus. If there had been "limited roster spots," why even offer him a scholarship?
Agreed. Saying his DQ was part of a numbers crunch is a lazy take. It was mid January and the annual Spring transfer movement hadn't even started yet.
Lazy, ignorant hottakes on 11W!?!? Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exactly. Dean was the first recruit in the class and the AD allowed him to enroll early. People pushing nefarious intentions just look ridiculous for not doing five minutes of research on this stuff.
The AD pushed the NCAA to grant Dean immediate eligibility at Auburn, for goodness sakes. Why do that for a malcontent who got in the doghouse one week after enrolling, before any football activities? Because it’s a figment of their imaginations.
The doctors made a judgment call, it happens. Dean wanted to play, it opened a scholly for Arnette. Everything worked out.
Signing day is tricky. There was no early signing day until recently so even if you had verbal commits there are always flips that go both ways. Could have gotten a guy or two we weren't expecting last minute. Also could have had 5th year seniors or 4th year guys return unexpectedly, which skews the numbers.
Either way, when the dust cleared after signing day, OSU was over the limit and had to make decisions.
Not true. OSU went after other DBs after Dean was medically DQed. He was also already enrolled at OSU .
Meyer took a commitment from Norwood, a much lower rated kid, after Dean got DQ'd, IIRC.
As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster...
Arnette committed on 2/2, according to 247. Norwood during the season in October.
Happy for him to overcome the odds but also happy our doctors recognized the risk and didn’t waiver in their decision. He’s obviously a super talented guy but imagine what it could have been if he’d seriously injured himself permanently.
by that logic nobody should play because of the potential for injury.
our doctors made what we assume was an educated guess and got it wrong.
Not really. He had a chronic history of injuries and it wasn’t looking like his body could handle the intensity required to play at that level. Three knee injuries for 3 straight years and multiple surgeries before college. I can imagine what they found during the evaluation wasn’t promising. More than likely they made the correct recommendation with the information available.
except the part where Dr James Andrews himself said he was good to go.
You do realize he missed two seasons due to injury right? 2015 & 2016....Saying someone is good to go doesn’t mean they’re not suceptiple to re-injury which I believe was the point of the OSU medical staff saying he has a high likelihood of re-injury
Yeah, well…that’s just like, your opinion, man.
Maybe being ruled medically unable to play is what got his attention. Good for him though!
Happy for the kid! Wishing nothing but success. The doctors made a mistake by declaring him unfit to perform. Maybe we needed the scholarship!
If he had stayed at OSU he would've ran a 4.5 cause SEC.
AKA the Horseshoe, the Shoe, and the House That Harley Built
Glad to see Dean persevering and succeeding. Best wishes as he heads into the League.
Down deep I think we all know why Dean wasn’t cleared.
I don't give a damn for the whole state of Xichigan.
Then you don’t follow recruiting closely.
Then tell Mr. Recruiting.
Man, that 2015 class was such an outlier.
Pick up your feet, turn your corners square! And DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE!!!
Said at the time the quick hook seemed fishy. After a year or so rehab then a DQ might if been the right call. Spin whatever way makes you feel good...but the docs made a bad call here.
Justice delayed is justice denied....#FTP
And I'm sure none of them are losing sleep over it. They did what they thought was in the best interest of this player from a health and welfare perspective, and from liability for OSU. Yes, smart doctors practice defensive medicine because our tort system has created that atmosphere.
Considering Dean's famous orthopedist, Andrews, is currently being sued by Sharrif Floyd of the Minnesota Vikings for $180 M because of the outcome of a knee surgery Andrews performed on him. you can see why many docs will be cautious.
“I had a dream” Shariff? Same guy?
The circumstances of Dean's DQ were sketchy and I remember people on this board at the time questioning it. This was also the cycle where Stan Drayton conveniently left a day or so after Weber signed, and Urban and OSU almost certainly knew he was leaving ahead of time. To his credit I think Urban made a concerted effort to avoid these situations moving forward because they were not a great look, but also were indicative of what many programs were doing at the time.
It's impossible to say whether Dean was appropriately disqualified but my take was they were nervous about his medical history and wanted the roster spot back instead of wasting it on a guy who might battle injuries his whole time at OSU. Others are certainly free to feel differently about it but it felt off at the time, not just 4 years later. I'm glad things worked out for him and we sure could have used him the past couple seasons.
Carlton Davis and Jamel Dean, Auburn proved to be the right spot for both guys. Happy for both, especially Dean.
"Life's a garden, dig it." -Joe Dirt
Just a reminder that Dean’s replacement was Damon Arnette, who is a more accomplished player (with as much NFL potential) and we get him for another year. I still like Carlton Davis best of the three, though.
Are we really comparing OSU and Auburn? Dean out two seasons due to injury in 2015 & 2016. How buried do you think he would have been with the talent of Lattimore and Ward moving up among others. Auburn is not on the same level and wasn’t a full time starter till last season. Congrats to him for sticking with it, but not sure he could have cracked the starting lineup at OSU. The medical hardship was probably the best thing that happened to him
I'd take him in a heartbeat over Arnette (who was his replacement in the class) and Sheffield, both having seen significant playing time at OSU.
Lol why, because he ran a 4.31 on an 8-5 team? What makes you believe his talents wouldn’t have been wasted this past season? Good lord most people say the combine is a glorified track meet and then buy into the hype of a guy running a 4.3. I’m not against the guy, but the best thing that happened to him was going to Auburn as OSU continually recruited elite CBs that weren’t dealing with injury issues.
There's a reason he's leaving early and Arnette is not. Being on an 8-5 team is irrelevant to his talent as a CB. I've watched this kid play and he's a much better CB than Arnette ever will be. Sheffield one could argue against the comparison, but I'd still take him over Sheffield as well.
You don’t teach 7 foot in basketball.
You don’t teach 4.3 in football.
Just the facts
People so badly want what should be one of the best stories of the draft to be a scandal.
I remember the discussion of this guy on this board back in the day.
He's got a lot of guts and grit, and once a Buckeye always a Buckeye (unless you renounce it as some have)
Success - it's what you do with what you've got. - Woody Hayes
Now an NFL draftee, not merely a prospect. From medically disqualified at Ohio State in 2015 to drafted, out of Auburn, in the 3rd round, #94 overall, by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Good for the young man to persevere, work through his physical challenges, and be drafted into the NFL.
"Life is ten percent what happens to you and ninety percent how you respond to it." - Woody Hayes