Ohio State's Lack of Scoring Threats, Post Options Highlighted In Loss To Rutgers

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Buxki84's picture

Woods needs to demand the ball more when the team needs a score. Otherwise, this team will continue to look leaderless when Kaleb is out of the game. It shouldn't fall on Muhammad to be the go-to guy because he's only a freshman, but if Woods doesn't step up, then Muhammad will have to. And where's Jallow?

I'd rather be a minute early than an hour early, 'cause I like to procrastinate.

HS
semperfibuck's picture

Ha! Very disappointed n Woods, In the 1st half he seemed to throw away more balls than he made successful passes... ands what did he make ? One 3-pointer? Give me the freshmen, especially Muhammad or Washington. Get them the experience they need. Both will soon surpass Woods IMHO. Have no idea why Jallow seems in the doghouse.

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Buck61's picture

Jallow plays average defense and gives them nothing on offense

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Buxki84's picture

Jallow needs to step up this year because the opportunity is there with a short roster. If he doesn't take advantage of it now and earn time, the freshmen next year just might pass him by.

I'd rather be a minute early than an hour early, 'cause I like to procrastinate.

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buckeyeinWI's picture

seems to me Jallow is already becoming an 'afterthought'....  I know he's only now 18, but...

And IMHO, this team will struggle against long lean athletic teams (like Syracuse); OSU has no true 'big' after Wesson, and is inconsistent at best in perimeter shooting...

and they still turn the ball over way to much for a guard dominated team...

I'm hoping Coach H. recruits another 'big' for 2019/2020, even if it's just another grad transfer to plug a hole...

just sayin'...

GO BUCKEYES!

16-2 is SWEET!

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gr8bucks's picture

I think it's where's waldo? And the answer is they're both missing. But anyone counting on jallow for answers is going to be sorely disappointed. By the way waldo is between marion and delaware. And don't bother with their bologna sandwich. 

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WPB-Buckeye's picture

Really......... Rutgers?  C’mon man!

Go Bucks!

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Blackcoffee's picture

Really. No easy away games in the B1G. And unless you just emerged today from under the proverbial rock, you know damn well these guys win by overachieving. Roll with it.

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stxbuck's picture

This. 

This current squad is what it is, limitations and all. Holtman can't squeeze water out of a stone. Sit back, chill out, enjoy the ride, and realize that athleticism/natural scoring moxie can't be 'coached up" out of nothing, by Coach Holtman, Coach K, or Jerry Tarkanian's zombie.

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gr8bucks's picture

Hey snarky, it's Roll wit it. And you're saying Rutgers overacheived? Got it!

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Buckeye Bill's picture

WPB, did you watch the game? Rutgers Freshmen were unconscious knocking down shots, and their whole team was playing great D. If I was an opposing coach I'd play zone the whole game against this team.

"Bring back St John"

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BuckeyeBen7.7's picture

Muhammad and especially Woods need to be more aggressive when looking for a shot. Both have to ability to score (Muhammad has hit tough shots and Woods averaged double digit points in previous years). Both also seemed unwilling to take a lead in the offense. With Jackson playing as bad as he has, this team needs Muhammad and Woods to be more aggressive.

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buckeyestu's picture

This is going to be a long year.

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Blackcoffee's picture

Stating the obvious. But we knew this months ago. Good day sir.

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TheVictoryBell's picture

We took a bad loss because Rutgers played harder, but overall this has been a fun season so far with a lot of basketball left to play. 

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PhillyNut's picture

Come on, this is basketball. Going on the road even against middle of the pack teams can be tough. This team is what it is but I am not counting them out from making the NCAAs. Rutgers lost by 5 at Wisconsin and was neck and neck with MSU at home until the end. They are like Syracuse - long and athletic and capable of playing anyone tough and then playing stinker games. While the Buckeyes were losing by 3 on the road to Rutgers, #11 Auburn lost by 15 at unranked Ole Miss.

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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Buckeye_bob's picture

This team is 12- 3 and your worried about making the NCAA lol, this team will be fine! Called growing pains!

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Blackcoffee's picture

Pretty harsh, waking up my time to see football fans moved over to basketball commentors. Team this year is what it is. Overachievers to be competitive. But knowing most fair weather basketball fans get no high by praising these young guys but rather get the rush of being derogatory/hateful, try to respect what they have accomplished to date and roll with them when they simply act human and fallible.

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IronPastor's picture

This is what drives me nuts...Beat UCLA in Chi-town, beat Creighton in Omaha...like 50 comments after the win.  Lose to Rutgers and suddenly everyone becomes a basketball genius and wants to comment about how "terrible" our team is.  We are young...we have 2 freshman playing significant minutes, one is starting.  The only people returning who got considerable minutes last year are CJ & Kaleb.  Young, Dre, K. Woods, Musa...all are still new to this, not to mention playing in Piscataway has not been an easy task for any B1G team the last few years.

Please....Basketbuck Nation...Yes, we need to improve as a team and are not where we need to be, but let's not all jump in and bash a young team, especially when you haven't been around to encourage them when they have won.

GEAUX BUCKEYES

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HoosierBuck's picture

Thoughts:

1.Rutgers won because they wanted it more. Showed by their FTs and points scored on Bucks' TOs. Buckeyes can't draw many fouls shooting 3 ptas. Duh!

2.K.Young needs MORE PT. He is best shooter near the hoop. 23 min. PT only. WHY?

 3. Luther and Kyle stood out to this one most for going after/diving for loose balls.

4. When playing against a zone, why not play D.Wash.( 5pts/12min PT) and K. Ahrens (no PT) more? They are known as great 3 pt. shooters.

5. A.Wesson played possibly his worst offensive  game: In 36 minutes PT= 4 pts. 4 TOs, (1very critical w/time running out.) 2 asst.  Spread some of those mins. around! 

6.Bucks need to use fakes more often on shooting and passing...something Rutgers did a lot more of than we did.

7.Suggest making Luther &/or Kyle captain(s) next season as no one else seems like one.

GO BUCKS!

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bsk33's picture

Some good points, but just wanted to let you know Ahrens was not available last night. He did not make the trip due to being sick with the flu.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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Buck61's picture

Ahrens has only played 39 minutes for the season leading up to last nights game, he has only played in just over half the games played. He is 2 of 7 from the three point line, only Young and Jallow are shooting worse. Granted not a large sample size but there is nothing to show he would make a difference.

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bsk33's picture

Way too small of a sample size to make that conclusion, in my humble opinion. The kid has a sweet looking stroke and had a strong reputation for outside shooting in high school. 7 attempts in college does not change that.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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Buck61's picture

i don't think he is physically ready to play at the big10 level this season. if chris thought he was ready he would have gotten significant minutes in the non conference part of the schedule.

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bsk33's picture

That's a fair reason. And there is a good chance that is true, just don't think he is basing it off 7 jump shots.

I just think there is a possibility he is improving each day in practice and we could see him later in the season.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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HoosierBuck's picture

Come on now, not many get into a rythym playing 1-3 minutes at a time.

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gr8bucks's picture

As deficient as this team is on offense, you don't think he'd be playing if h. thought he'd help? I said it at the start of the season, so I won't back off of it now, he and ledee should have red-shirted, they'd be twice the players in their 5th year vs. their first. Since their minutes are meaningless this year, h. wasted a freshman redshirt, which is when most redshirt. 

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gr8bucks's picture

Speaking of redshirting, I don't know if h. wants jallow around 5 years, but he should redshirt jallow next year if he'd want him around in year 5. 

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wigmon's picture

Redshirts are pretty dumb for non-big men at top 20 programs.  Yeah, certainly every kid is going to be better as a 5th year senior than a frosh, but now you've taken a scholarship away for a year from another recruit.  You want a borderline top 200 kid (who isn't good enough to be on the floor as a frosh) for a 5th year, or a top 50 kid for a couple?  That point aside, we probably don't have a deep enough roster to redshirt anyone this year.  Could have maybe redshirted Ledee if Potter had stuck around, but not now.  Ahrens has a skill that can be used situationaly, so if you think he can help your team this year in certain situations, I don't think you redshirt him.   Now, if he's only going to get in every third or 4th game, then I'd consider a redshirt, but thats where I fall back to point #1. 

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stxbuck's picture

Couple of points

1-Pt/position wise, Kyle Young and Andre Wesson are kind of interchangeable-Holtman doesn't want them both on the floor together

2-If Kyle Ahrens was THAT great of shooter/scorer/ready to play-he would. Unless you are already huffing conspiracy fumes, I would posit that Duane Washington and Luther Muhammad are both more advanced in both their D and their in-game shooting than Ahrens. Holtman has his rotation pretty much established and Ahrens obviously hasn't shown enough to disrupt it.

3-I'd say both Wesson bros. are captain material.

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IronPastor's picture

For the Record....Kyle Ahrens is averaging 6.1ppg and 19 minutes per game for Michigan State.  His younger brother Justin is the one wearing Scarlet and Gray!

GEAUX BUCKEYES

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stxbuck's picture

D'oh. Bloodlines don't lie tho-if that is what the family is producing as an equally rated recruit as a senior, I can see why little bro isn't being rushed into action.

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HoosierBuck's picture

Thanks Iron Pastor, I had Kyle Young on the brain at the time.

The MSU game was a rare miss for me ..forgot to record it.

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tcm1968's picture

I get the big picture and all... but the frustrating thing is Wesson was dealing to start the second half. Then they went away from him and the last 7 minutes of the game he gets two shots... that's just bad basketball. 

1 point lead and the ball, out of time out with 1:28 left and turn the ball over and miss 2 shots and don't score the the final 1:28...

We weren't very the good the entire game and it was right there for the taking..

Any chance we could sneak Diebler onto this squad and put him in Lane's jersey :) 

Go Bucks!

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moopdawg's picture

Was really looking forward to watching Micah Potter play a bigger role this year.  I feel like the team misses him as we see that there often is a drop off when Kaleb takes a seat.  Next season, we should have a lot more depth when it comes to the bigs, but this year it is definitely a challenge and Coach Holtmann and his staff will have to get creative.

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Blackcoffee's picture

Yes guessin' not PC cursin' Potter for jumpin' ship, blwater under the hridge all that, but we should at least get a handicap for the round of 18.

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iowabuckeyes's picture

Potter screwed us. The lack of frontline depth was already this team's Achilles heel and his departure may it worse. That was evident last night as Rutgers had its way inside. As the season goes on, Kaleb is going to get worn down by the B1G’s physicality. I hate to say it but this young team may have already peaked. Finishing .500 in the B1G is going to take some work.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

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ROCK1's picture

Potter never showed he could play offense or defense. We'd be better getting a MAC transfer.

ROCK1

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HoosierBuck's picture

Micah will fit well in Wisky.

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TheVictoryBell's picture

They better figure it out quick. At Iowa on Saturday. Holtmann needs to get back to finding guys that want to play hard and fight for 40 minutes. Give guys like Duane Washington and Musa Jallow more minutes if they’re willing to play hard. 

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stxbuck's picture

Yes, Holtman has already started playing favorites and/or forgotten how to evaluate/demand defensive intensity. Holy overreaction Batman.

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Steelydan54's picture

Rutgers may not be really talented but they are really big. Buckeyes may not be really talented either, and they're not as big. Is it really a shock we lost?  We have to work really hard to win each game. Just a little slip in effort or someone gets infoul trouble early and we can lose easily. It'll be much better next year. For this year we applaud effort. 

Steelybuck54

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BuckeyeinFlorida's picture

We need a big body in the paint for depth.

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Buck61's picture

maybe day can loan them a lineman

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Buxki84's picture

I love it. Like Ricky Dudley back in the mid 90s. How about Malik Harrison or Rashod Berry?

I'd rather be a minute early than an hour early, 'cause I like to procrastinate.

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Blackcoffee's picture

Iowa will be sweaty and raucous. I know Ferentz and Mcafferty(?) are actually one and the same guy. Fuck 'em Go Bucks!

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cledaybuck's picture

I know Ferentz and Mcafferty(?) are actually one and the same guy.

Really?  They seem about as different as can be.  I don't think I have ever seen Ferentz's emotions change and McCaffery seems to lose it at the slightest provocation.

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BUCKEYEYANKEE's picture

It will be a blowout at Carver Hawkeye arena. Hawkeyes put up points there like gangbusters. Buckeyes will struggle against Tyler Cook, Garza and the Bohannon kid. Bottom line is OSU doesn't have the experienced guards to match against better teams. It is going to be a long season. 

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BucksDad159's picture

CJ and Woods really have not shown a ton of senior leadership that I had hoped for and that this team really needs....Andre has shown some flashes of being a factor but he can be in a game and absolutely have no impact other than what we say last night...also no one and dones in this freshman class....Rutgers freshmen really showed what will happen into the next couple of seasons.

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98sb715's picture

CJ and Woods are liabilities against teams with better guards. CJ is a former JUCO transfer and Woods is a transfer from a bad Wake Forest team. Neither is a true PG. Andre Wesson is another liability. I'd rather see Jallow and Washington get more playing time. 

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bsk33's picture

Some observations based on stats and what I have seen:

1. CJ's efficiency in our 4 big name non conference games (Cincy, Creighton, Cuse, UCLA) and the 4 Big 10 games is awful. He is 29-87 (.333) in those games, never shooting at or above 50 percent in any of them. Yet the only game where he took less than 8 shots or played less than 28 mins was Illinois. He was 2-7 with 8pts and 4 turnovers in 19 mins. I love how hard CJ plays and he seems like a good kid. But maybe less mins and less shots would not be a bad thing.

2. On the other end of the spectrum, Keyshawn Woods has way too many plays when he is not ready to shoot despite being wide open and plays too tenative overall. He has only taken 8 or more shots in 5 games all season. In those 5 games, he has averaged 14 pts and 4.8 assists and osu is 5-0. In the other 10 games, he has averaged 4.6 pts and 2.8 assists and we are 7-3.

3.On a positive note, Luther Muhammad is averaging 12 pts a game and made 9-17 threes in his last 5 games.

4. I feel like Duane Washington could potentially get into more of a groove if he played more mins. He hasn't been very efficient, but he is our 4th leading scorer despite only playing 18 mins a game. And a big chunk of those mins have been played in garbage time of blow outs. I imagine his defense and shot selection aren't up to Holtmann's standards. But this team desperately needs more offense, and more mins to Duane seems like the best option.

5. Andre Wesson plays 6 more mins a game than Kyle Young. Young averages more pts (7.5 pts to 7.3), more rebs (4.9 to 4.5) and shoots nearly 30 percentage pts better from the field (.730 to .435). And Dre has played literally more than 2 games worth (over 90 mins) than Kyle. I don't get it.

6. Not sure if he is ready for it, but I would not mind seeing some mins for Justin Ahrens. I imagine he is struggling to deal with the speed and physicality of college basketball coming from a small town school. But he is the only forward/wing on the team that has a reputation as a good shooter.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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Blackcoffee's picture

Agreed. Need to cut Ahrens loose. Give them a viable 3 threat.

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gr8bucks's picture

He's two years from being a viable threat. Just like those that want jallow to play, you're grasping at straws. Inability and inconsistency keep your butt glued to the bench. 

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PhillyNut's picture

I love Young and his game but comparing shooting percentages with A. Wesson is apples and oranges.  Young does not take a shot outside 2 feet with most either being a back door alley-oop slam or a put back.  I love that game but if he were ever tasked with shooting anything more than 5 feet from the basket I get a feeling the results would be a disaster

I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!

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bsk33's picture

I understand that, but it is still 30 percentage pts higher just the same. My point is, if Kyle was getting more mins, we likely would be getting more efficient production. I don't care where he shoots it from, it still counts as 2 pts. This is similar to Jae'Sean Tate. We can complain about how he was a terrible shooter, but he consistently found ways to get lay ups and score double digit pts while shooting in the upper 50s from the field. I would like to see if Kyle could put up 9-12 pts a night if he played closer to 30 mins instead of 20. Andre has been given that chance (28 mins, 7 pts a game) and has not. He played 36 mins last night and scored 4 pts.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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stxbuck's picture

If Holtman were to abide by your suggestion and dramatically increase the feeds of Young in the post, where would that leave Kaleb Wesson?

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bsk33's picture

Where did I say feeds in the post? I think he should get more mins at the 4, not necessarily the 5. And not dramatically, just think he deserves closer to 30 mins a game than the 22 he has gotten so far.

Kyle scores he efficiently on backdoor cuts, alley-oops, put backs, etc. I just think he has a better chance of getting a couple more buckets in a game scoring in that manner than what we would get scoring from A.Wesson and Jallow in those mins.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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stxbuck's picture

Well, post feeds are the only way to get shots for Young that can be counted on. He is more dynamic around the rim than Andre Wesson, but other than that, there isn't a wide gap between the two.

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bsk33's picture

We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Here are the per 40 mins scoring averages for the 3 players that play the 4 (at least some of the time).

Kyle Young- 13.6
Andre Wesson- 10.4
Musa Jallow- 9.2

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

HS
HoosierBuck's picture

I really miss J.Tate!  He could get to the basket and rarely missed!  That is lacking this year.

This reply was intended for BSK33s earlier post re Tate. ...stuff happens.

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Huskerbuck's picture

Strongly agree that Andre needs more bench time, simply to get his attention and head into the game, and Kyle deserves/has earned more playing time.  Very disappointed in the inconsistent "senior leadership" of CJ and Woods.  If these three players don't significantly step it up it could be a long B10 season and we may not even make the tournament. 

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buckeyeinWI's picture

I'm anything but an 'expert' when it comes to b-ball, but to me, this current roster, besides K. Wesson, and Muhammad, are a collective group of 'role players'.  I think Washington, LaDee, and Young will produce. I think if they let Woods go (i.e. be the man at PG), he too would (consistently) be productive. Was hoping to get more from Jackson and Jallow this year, but....

Next year will be interesting, in that some of the above players may(will) get passed up on the depth chart by Carton, Walker, Liddell, and Gaffney...

GO BUCKEYES!

16-2 is SWEET!

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stxbuck's picture

Carton and Walker (the FSU transfer) will takes the combined minutes of Woods and Jackson next year. Liddell and LeDee seem to be very similar prospects, so who knows on that front. Gaffney will get as many minutes as his readiness and production justify.

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Blackcoffee's picture

Gotta disagree bout LeDee vs Liddel. Liddel is a viable option for big minutes next year. LeDee is not at his level in as much as being a viable option for meaningful minutes his freshman year.

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HoosierBuck's picture

Jackson is a hot/cold shooting guard who plays PG (out of necessity) and dribbles too much....resulting in almost no fast breaks, imho.

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wigmon's picture

Some good points. 

- On 1), I think CJ's percentage is somewhat hampered by being the guy that has to take the shot when the shot clock is nearing 0 and is taking 2-3 low percentage shots a game that he wouldn't normally take.  I agree he has been very inconsistent, but I don't feel like he is taking bad shots.

- On 5), I am not really sure how much Andre should play.  I think he's clearly ahead of Jallow at the 3 spot, but I agree that I'd rather see Young at the 4.  I think Andre is probably a little more flexible on defense and now that Young is coming off the bench, its probably just a matter of it being difficult to find more minutes for him.  We went to the 3G lineup to try and generate more offense, but I don't think its really worked out so far.  I tend to agree that I'd rather see more of DW and less of Woods at this point as I honestly don't think Woods does anything better that DW.

- On 6), just not sure about Ahrens.  Haven't seen him for enough minutes to really know.  I think he's played OK in the time he has gotten, but I think basically its either he or Jallow right now and Jallow is getting the minutes because of defense.  I don't know that its quite time to switch things up, but a couple of more games like last night that its probably worth a shot.

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HoosierBuck's picture

BSK##: All good points.  Thanks.

Btw, I am of the opinion that K.W. needs to get in the weight room some more. I see no tone in the upper body. 

Feeling that he is not yet in Big 10 shape and maybe that is part of the reason for his foul problems.

The  team has had trouble with lay ups blocked or missed, (some due to no faking to avoid the blocks).

Conditioning maybe?     Big exception is Kyle Y.... he has been and is gonna score a high pct underneath.

Go Bucks!

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BuckeyeJAK's picture

The turnovers were a killer

Mark May is a mental midget

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Huskerbuck's picture

Especially Andre's late in the game which may have very well cost us the game. Guess he was passing it to the scorers table instead of his teammate. Unbelievable.

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Buck61's picture

reminded me of the pass to dakich last year when he was sitting on the bench

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stxbuck's picture

That was true-good chance Buckeyes pull it out if that errant pass doesn't happen. Shit happens sometimes, especially on road conference games. People shouldn't take it as a sign of something larger until it becomes an undeniable trend.  I knew going into this season that this year's team would test the patience of many on this board.

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Nutinpa's picture

One thing we need to acknowledge is that losing to Rutgers in basketball is a far, far cry from losing to them in football. There, I stated the obvious. Their coach is building a program, and there is no doubt in the NYC metro area, he has kids to choose from that can play locally.  

Secondly, this is what happens to teams who travel in midweek to gray, dreary locations, and the kids came out flat. (no offense, Ramzy -- I spent a lot of my career in New Brunswick, NJ)  Rutgers came out inspired and got off the schneid regarding their record in the B1G.   Trust me, we won't be their only victim this year.  Like I said, this isn't Rutgers football.

This has been a truly fun team to watch and Holtmann is building something special at OSU.  It won't be special this year until the kids who play tentatively like Woods and A Wesson, sack up and play basketball.  Musa clearly does not have the coaches' confidence, so I am not sure what his future is as a Buckeye. CJ is not a point guard, but that is the position he is forced to play.  Young plays with passion and is getting points in the paint, but he still does not have a close or long range shot that anyone needs to worry about. In the past 2 games, this has been a two-man team with K Wesson and Luther, and that won't cut it. 

There is still time to find the magic, but many of the concerns we had about this team pre-season are coming to roost. No need to look for a ledge.  This is what they are until they come out of their shells.  This team will surprise us with some inspiring victories -- and there will be more of last night.  It's just how it will be IMHO, so we might as well enjoy the ride and see what comes down the road. 

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Nickstar532's picture

Surprised  more people haven’t mentioned how bad CJ is playing currently. Might be time for a change of pace and put Washington in at PG or let Woods play point, even though I think you want him playing off ball more. 

Id have CJ come off the bench for a couple games to see if that helps break the slump. 

Go Bucks!

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Osu244's picture

A few observations I had from last night:

CJ Jackson is just not a very good player IMO.  We should see a major upgrade with Carton next year.  I do love how hard he plays though.

Duane Washington is our most natural wing scorer, but he didn't play very much last night because he was horrendous on the defensive end.  Geo Baker smoked him multiple times.

Luther played a great game last night.  He was like a glove on Geo in the 2nd half, and if I'm remembering correctly, Baker got hot in the first half when Luther was out or not guarding him.

Andre looked lost last night, he's been great all season IMO, just doing the little things, but last night he was off for whatever reason.

Our first 5 fastbreak opportunities of the game, we were 0-5 in converting.  Instead of taking layups, guys filling lanes would run to the 3 pt line.  It was frustrating to watch that.

Ohio State got murdered on the boards, offensive rebounds galore for Rutgers.

A lot to work on, but coach Holtmann needs to get some things fixed quickly because the B1G is a juggernaut this year.  Illinois may be the only bad team in the conference.

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wkfan's picture

Just my $.02.......

1. CJ Jackson plays hard but isn't a very good basketball player.  He is really the only one to run the point, but shouldn't really shoot much.

2. Kaleb Wesson is still too soft.  Doesn't finish the shots that he should consistently.

3. I really like Keyshawn Woods....seems like a really good guy.  Played entirely too many minutes last night without contributing much.

4. Andre Wesson was lost and a real liability. 

5. Luther Mohammad was great last night...a real addition that will hopefully be here for a long time.

6. Wished that Duane Washington played more...especially at the end.  Not sure why he was not on the court, even with his defensive issues at the end of the game cause he is a much better shooter than both Woods and Jackson.

7. Kyle Young has a motor that we need on the court.  Great effort and tough.

8. Would like to see more of Ladee.

I really love what Holtmann is doing with the team, he is just limited somewhat by what he has to work with.  Really looking forward to next year to mix three incoming freshmen with Mohammad, Young, Washington and a more inspired, conditioned and tougher K. Wesson.

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EightyDeuce's picture

Well said WK! Took the words right out of my mouth.

Nothing that comes easy is worth a dime.
'Merica!

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GlenBuck's picture

Ohio State managed only two points that came on a 3-point shot from Muhammad.

You know it's a bad day when you shoot and make a three-pointer, but only get two points from it.

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bsk33's picture

Ha, ha. I hate when that happens.

I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.

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Buck61's picture

This team only has two guys averaging double figures yet the team is averaging nearly 80 points a game. Nobody knows from night to night who will be the second scorer behind Kaleb.

The basic rotation is just seven players, hard to compete at the highest level with limited size and depth.

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andretolstoy's picture

Is Rutgers better than UCLA?

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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BuckeyeBig2012's picture

Might not have better talent but certainly stays in games longer. I thought, "Oh, it's Rutgers. They stink." Then I looked at their schedule. Lots of losses but they were in the majority of those games. Eventually, one will turn your way and I think that happened for them last night. 

I also am starting to wonder if Buckeye Nation was premature in heaping so much praise on the new coach.

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andretolstoy's picture

As far as coaching and recruiting overall, I think Coach Holtmann can handle his own. Basketball is much more corrupt in a way and more difficult to develop a program than say, football. This is just my uneducated opinion. Basketball players seem higher maintenance. 

As far as coaching the last five minutes, we haven't had a coach that could master the last five minutes of the game like O'Brien. In spite of everything, OB was a master the last five minutes of a game.  

If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. 

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Nutinpa's picture

I also am starting to wonder if Buckeye Nation was premature in heaping so much praise on the new coach.

No.  It wasn't premature.  He is worthy of the praise.   This isn't OSU football.  Until he can put his stamp on this program, this team is rebuilding -- it isn't ready to reload yet and it's not even close.  Give it 3 more years. 

We are lucky to have Holtmann as our coach -- period. 

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stxbuck's picture

Exactly-Holtman is doing a phenomenal job with the pieces he has, and has brought in improved talent in the each of the 3 recruiting classes he has had a hand in. IMO, people confuse quality coaching/maximizing talent with 'magically coach up everyone into an AA/NBA level performer."

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IronPastor's picture

I also am starting to wonder if Buckeye Nation was premature in heaping so much praise on the new coach.

Yeah...I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this one.  Right now we are slumping, yes, that happens in a college BBall season.  However, Holtmann took a team that was not supposed to do anything last year and took them Dancing.

This year, we returned only 44% of the minutes played last year, Cj and Kaleb being more than half that.  We return 38% of the scoring from last year, of which CJ and Kaleb make up 76% of the returning scoring.  We were supposed to once again be a .500 team according to the pundits and yet we are 12-3 and 2-2 in conference (Tied for 6th). 

To say that Holtmann doesn't deserve the accolades (B1G Coach of the Year last year) and praise he has been given is harder to believe than the statement made above....just my $.02 though.

GEAUX BUCKEYES

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stxbuck's picture

I wouldn't even call it a slump-the team did NOT play against Sparty like a slumping team-they went toe to toe with a team of superior talent, and happened to lose in the end, w/ their starting PG on the bench. A 3 point loss in a B10 road game-OMG-those boys are tanking like UCLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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IronPastor's picture

My statement about slumping was more based on them being down in energy coming off winter break.  Yes, they went toe to toe with MSU.

i was resounding to the post about Holtmann being over-hyped which I clearly disagree with.

I think we will be okay, probably better than okay.

GEAUX BUCKEYES

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gr8bucks's picture

I don't think losing to a top 10 team and a road loss are slumping. Last year osu won 6 road games, some of the close variety, this year's team will win 3 or 4. Eight home wins gives them at most 12 wins, so 11-12 there abouts. That's good enough to make the ncaa, if they get in they're 1-1 or one and done, probably what should be expected for this team. 

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stxbuck's picture

Hell yes. UCLA is an imploding dumpster fire, recruiting rankings be damned. In Alford's last game before he got canned, they were destroyed by Liberty at home.

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H8UM's picture

BlackCoffee’s comments earlier were spot on, this team is never gonna boat race anybody. They are are gonna win by grinding and overachieving and until we get some reliable scoring from the perimeter there’s no reason for any team to defend outside the arc, every time our guards tried to dribble drive they were met by At least 3 bodies because there’s no respect for the kick out and shoot. Good ball movement and good outside shooting is about the only way to loosen up a zone !

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oldbuck60's picture

These guys are what they are...basically a bunch of role players that are extremely well-coached! Truly believe we're witnessing the start of a hall-of-fame coaching career! Last night wasn't good, but NO ONE in the BIG is an easy road win!! I do wonder what has happened to Jallow's minutes...all the earlier comments say he can't score, but he scored 22 pts in the first two conference games...minutes have all but disappeared since??

oldbuck60

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Icouldnotgofor3's picture

LeDee and Jallow need to be developed ASAP by more PT.......Jallow should be a driving force like slam bam thompson a few years ago and LeDee needs to get it in mind to start playing aggressive. This team is too passive and gets rattled too easily under pressure. 

Saban on a cart eating cold pizza

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wigmon's picture

"Jallow should be a driving force like slam bam thompson a few years ago".

Was this meant TIC? 

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Buckeye Chuck's picture

I get all the "young team" talk, but aren't young teams supposed to improve as the season goes on? Aside from UCLA, we've now gone over a month without really looking that good.

The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.

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stxbuck's picture

Considering CJ Jackson was out most of the 2nd half of the MSU game, the team team looked DAMN good against Sparty. Not every team is going to cower to Buckeyeness and allow Holtman and Co. to whip them by 18 or whatever.

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nomatta's picture

"Young" team -- most individual improvement happens in the off-season. Young has definitely improved. Kaleb has improved. Andre has improved (though you'd never know it from last night). CJ is what he is, a streaky 6'1 CG, and Keyshawn isn't giving us what he gave at Wake (double digits on 40% 3pt shooting). The issue is the allocation of our talent/upside--it's with the underclassmen, and Young and Kaleb have made strides. Only Jallow has stagnated/regressed. The frosh are frosh, and non-T75 frosh at that. Muhammad is playing well but frosh also tend to hit frosh walls in conference play, and you might be seeing some of that with DWash. Which brings me to:

DWash -- Lots of clamoring for him to play more for shooting purposes; he was 1-4 last night and threw up multiple open bricks in the second half against Sparty. He is 36% from 3 right now. CJ is 39%. Woods is 33%. Thing is, Duane is grading out as the worst perimeter defender on the team. This is probably why Holtmann doesn't trust him with more minutes just yet, though I dunno why we are acting like Duane is getting short-shrifted, he is a non-T100 true frosh who is still getting to play 18 mpg. He is the best all-around shooter that Holtmann has brought to OSU so far, so I do think you're going to see a much more reliable version of him next season and maybe if this season becomes a lost cause or Washington picks it up he starts playing more minutes.

Ahrens -- DWash the best all-around shooter, you say? Yup. Ahrens has more potential as far as a catch-and-shoot guy given his height and the quickness of his stroke, but he was VERY streaky in HS and AAU. He's 2-7 this year so far from deep. I'm sure if he was torching the nets in practice he'd be getting more opportunity. He's a bad defender at the moment and doesn't really give you anything else besides a guy who MIGHT get hot if he takes enough shots, in the meantime you've wasted like ten possessions to get him better. The hope for him is that repetitions in practice will build his consistency.

Jallow -- Are y'all serious with this "FREE JALLOW" stuff? He's gotten into just about every game this season and except for Minny and Illinois, he's given us almost nothing. And for whatever reason he has really been out-of-sync on D this season, Holtmann's cited that as a big reason he's not playing more. In might be in his best interests to transfer so that he can have a sit-out year to work on his game, fall back to his age class, and then play for a team that can have him on the court a lot so he can get comfortable out there and find his identity as a player at this level.

Overall -- Holt knows that if this team is going to make the Dance this season, CJ, Keyshawn, and Andre have to play better. You take Andre too much out of the equation and you take out your best 3/4 defender, one of your better rebounders, your only junior, and one of 3 dudes in the core rotation who is over 6'3. I do support the notion that Young should probably get equal minutes to Andre, but Andre still needs to be a main ingredient for this team. Luther is already a starter, Duane could take some of CJ's and Keyshawn's minutes but I don't know if that improves our chances unless those two just continue to be as bad as they were last night. I do think if there's a certain point where this season becomes a lost cause for making the Dance, sure, give Luther and Duane as many minutes as they can handle. In the meantime Holt's got to stick with whatever line-ups and match-ups he thinks give the team the best chance of winning. We don't win at Creighton or Illinois without Keyshawn, he had double digit games against Samford and Bucknell, he had 10 assists against UCLA (3:1 A-TO this season)--he was contributing in a variety of ways but, yes, he's been bad these past two. If this is the norm for him against B1G competition then his minutes will go down. CJ's streaky as all get out but people are acting like he's awful when it wasn't even two games ago he had a killer first half against a very good Sparty team. This season he's our second leading scorer on not-bad percentages and has had 11 double digit games with 3 games over 20 pts and 17 and 19 pt performances. He is our assist leader and he helps with the rebounding (4.3 rpg)--help which we need. He has some dumb turnovers but he's still 2:1 on the A-TO. Holt knows that we're going to do anything this season, we need CJ as a part of that. I'm not going to hope CJ suddenly becomes a really consistent player but hopefully he starts playing a little better down the stretch in games. Like I said, if there comes a point where we're not making the Tournament, yeah, I hope Holt plays the frosh more. But we haven't reached that breaking point just yet.

the empire never ended

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Buck61's picture

Chris can't afford to over extend Young, he doesn't know from night to night what Kaleb's foul situation will be and Young can't stay out of foul trouble as well. He can't have both in early foul trouble of either half. LeDee isn't ready for a 10 minute stretch

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RMLogic's picture

Fans need to just lower their expectations after a good pre conference run. Expecting a season like last year is not happening. Last an elite player KBD carried the team. Another really good player Tate helped at both ends of the court. Add good play from Kaleb the team had 3 players that are a high collegiate level. Thus a good year.

This team has 1 good player- Kaleb and thats it. And big men hardly control the game these days. This roster just does not have good talent yet. They have 2 pieces- Muhammad and Washington who have tremendous potential to be high level players.

As we saw last the rest of the roster is at the talent level of the Rutgers players. This team might get in the Dance as one of the last B1G teams due to the awful Pac 12.

Patience and wait for 3 freshman studs to get this program to a top 10-15 level next year.

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Jvillebuck's picture

What happens next year if Kaleb decides to go pro? He should stay another year, lose 10 more lbs and improve his explosion/lift to the basket (his foot work is as good as any big in the conference). Though Sulinger lasted 5 years in the NBA, he wasn't effective against longer players who can get in the air quickly. I think Potter leaving 3 days prior to the opener put Holtman in a tough spot. Though Potter played soft he did have some offensive skill and he is 6'9".  Since Kaleb is prone to foul trouble Kyle Young should be encouraged to become more aggressive (offensively) in the paint. Opponent scouting reports can be simply stated, PLAY ZONE DEFENSE AGAINST THE BUCKEYES (and take it to Kaleb Wesson to get him in foul trouble).

"We're going to give the ball to dumb-ass and grind meat"--Woody Hayes

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