I don't know that there were any glaring character issues with Johnson - it was truly that his indecision got the worst of him. Matta & co. grabbed CJ Jackson as a guaranteed signee this year, highly likely due to Johnson's indecision. Thad probably thought that they had a good shot if Johnson stayed as a 2017 but as soon as he reclassified he wasn't going to come to OSU.
Giddens was also offered by: Kansas, Indiana, Maryland, Louisville, and Arizona, to name a few of the marquee programs. He was the #8 center in the class, top 50 overall.
Mitchell was offered by: Kansas, Baylor, Florida, Oregon, Texas, to name a few. While he was outside of the top 100, he still had good offers.
You cannot use hindsight to justify recruiting certain players. Giddens was never going to carry the offense, at least not for a few years. He was a defensive player and a rebounder, and was not going to be expected to contribute a ton offensively. There are a lot of players out there like him, plenty have passed through the doors of the Schott and plenty into the NBA (Dallas Lauderdale comes to mind, Tristan Thompson for the Cavs is a similar role). Mitchell is a very good athlete with good passing vision and the fact that he sat out a year of high school ball as well as the start to the season was evident in a rough freshman year.
If we never gave players a chance to develop, then we should never have recruited Jon Diebler. He's now the all-time 3-pt leader at OSU...who shot 29% from 3 his freshman while taking nearly 5 a game. If you want to continue to argue what Matta SHOULD HAVE known when recruiting these guys, then I think you should probably be paid millions of dollars per year to coach and recruit these guys.
The offense has been stagnant for the last 2-3 seasons, yes, but generally Matta's teams were efficient on both ends of the floor. Player development: see Turner, Evan; Sullinger, Jared; Russell, D'Angelo (even for the one season); Diebler, Jon; hell even Dallas Lauderdale. Jamar Butler, Matt Sylvester? All guys who got better over their time.
Drop the "misses in OH" gag.
"General pussies" - I'm sure most will agree with you as you sit in your lounge chair commenting on the lives of 18-20 year olds.
And how did that work out exactly?
Not well. Just like Jordan Sibert (#38 overall his class, #3 Ohio), JD Weatherspoon (#98 overall, #5 Ohio same class), or any other number of Ohio players who did not work out? If you are saying Matta should've recruited Burke instead of Scott without the benefit of hindsight you are crazy. Top 90 player vs. top 35 player and any coach takes the top 35 player.
Oden and Conley were from outside of Ohio. Turner was from Chicago. D'lo was from Kentucky. You see where I'm going. If you really, truly, think that if Matta had gotten all in-state players instead of going out of state that this would all be any different...I have some snake oil to sell you.
Maybe there are 1-2 players that "got away" from Matta in-state, but for the large part he has found equal success out of the state. Just because a kid is from Ohio doesn't automatically make them any better and doesn't automatically grant OSU any wins.
Because in any given year the talent pool outside of OH may be better. Everyone always loves to bring up how Matta whiffed on Trey Burke the same year he brought in Shannon Scott. What people forget is how Scott was Mr. Basketball in Georgia, #35 overall recruit, #7 PG in his class, while Burke was #93 overall and #17 PG in the same class. Hindsight is 20/20 and Burke was a baller, though every recruiting service had Scott ranked significantly higher.
If players outside the state are better and want to play at OSU, there's no reason they shouldn't be recruited. If players inside the state don't want to play for OSU (e.g., Kennard, Bragg), so be it. Move forward with the best players you can.
I wouldn't say "never." Did you think Frank Kaminsky would be drafted after his first two years on Wisconsin, let alone NPOY?
Looks at 2016 recruiting class: 3 Ohio kids
Looks at 2017 class: 1 commit, from Ohio. One potential commit (Johnson), from Ohio
Looks at 2018 class: 1 commit, from Ohio
AJ Harris was the fourth ranked player in Ohio in the 2015 class and a lot of people are ok with him leaving. Neither Bragg nor Kennard were coming to OSU.
Jared Sullinger? Jae'Sean Tate? Marc Loving? Jon Diebler? Aaron Craft? Koufos? Mullens? Buford?
I know you just said this to be stupid, which you accomplished. But it doesn't even have a figment of truth to it, which is why it makes no sense.
Not a bad stretch for former OSU point guards - Shannon Scott also recorded a triple-double the other week for the Toronto D-League team.
I do what I can. I make a living creating analyses based solely on facts and numbers so supporting my opinions with anything less would be a disservice to myself.
This year we had the B1G-ACC challenge against 1-seed UVA, 9-seed UConn, and 4-seed Kentucky. Last year we played Louisville, UNC, and Marquette. The year before, Marquette, Maryland, and Notre Dame. MSU has at most one more good game scheduled per year than OSU, but most years it's very similar. The early season tournaments skew this also.
Are we really resorting to the schedule argument for our own team? That's supposed to be reserved for SEC fans critical of the OSU football schedule.
Trey Burke was in the same class as Shannon Scott, and both were point guards who were going to sit behind Craft. Scott was Mr. Basketball in Georgia and was ranked in the top 30-35 nationally. Burke, depending on the recruiting service, was in the 85-100 range.
People need to make up their minds. Either you want Ohio players who aren't ranked as high as out of staters Thad recruits, or you don't. Can't do both.
Simpson is literally ranked 1 spot (both nationally and in Ohio, #68 nationally and #6 in Ohio) ahead of Funderburk, who is #69 and #7. I'm assuming there's a reason THad didn't offer him. Just like Kennard didn't commit to OSU because he grew up a Kentucky fan. Just because a recruit grows up in Ohio doesn't mean they are automatic OSU recruits, ESPECIALLY for basketball.
This program has been mediocre to bad for a full 4 year graduating class
In 2012-2013, OSU was in the Elite 8. Please, don't make it more than it really is. Izzo, Calipari, Coach K, Roy Williams....they all have had their own 2-3 year "slumps." Izzo has 3 years where he hasn't even won 20 games. You think Sparty nation is calling for his head?
In the last ten years, Izzo has had 3 teams not make it out of the round of 64 in the tournament, and one more that didn't make it past the round of 32. Thad has had 2 not make it out of the round of 64, 2 not make it out of the round of 32, an NIT Championship (that was a good team), and this year's exit.
Also, I have no idea how you can say this:
Nobody has ever charged coach K or Izzo of being classy or nice
Maybe Coach K, but Izzo has always been a Grade A certifiable class act. He is always complimentary of other teams and players, has an active family and community life, and always carries himself with tremendous professionalism. There are very, very few OSU fans (let alone college basketball fans) that will say "I hate Tom Izzo because he is not a good person."
Funny you should say that. SI just had an article about the best coaches offensively in the past 10 years, and had our own Thad at #4 ahead of both Cal and Izzo. Recalling that Thad's teams have been better known for good defense, I'm assuming you're going to disagree with SI because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Those 2 develop talent and win games they have no business winning
Like Kentucky losing in the first round of the NIT in 2013? Like MSU losing to MTSU as a 2 seed this year?
It's really funny. Izzo and MSU won 19, 22, and 18 games in 2001-2004, which was...one year removed from their national championship. As recently as 2011 MSU won only 19 games. Something Thad has NEVER done, because he's won at least 20 games in every year of his career as a head coach.
Better yet - I want you to look up who has won more games since the 2004-2005 season when Thad became coach at The Ohio State University, Izzo or Thad. Know what? I'll make it easy for you - Thad has won 320 games in his OSU tenure, while Izzo has won 317 games in the same time period. Amazing, right?
We also lost Tate down the stretch when it mattered most. Tate alone accounted for 17% of the team's points, 17% of rebounds, and 14% of the assists before going out. Other than assists, losing Tate's 17% of points and 17% of rebounds was greater than or equal to the TOTAL of the four freshman we just lost.
We win one of the close games against tourney teams (Wisconsin or Maryland) and you can't even make this stupid comment. Returning a core of juniors and one senior and roughly 85% of the major statistical categories should make everyone feel ecstatic. This was not a bad team this year. In B1G play, we were the ONLY team not to lose to a team who finished below us. We beat who we should beat, we had a rough go against the best teams, and won two good games against Michigan and Iowa. That's quite a baseline to start from.
In the last 20 years, only 11 teams have won a national championship in basketball. We were very close in 2007 and probably our best team of the last 30 years in 2011 ran into an underseeded Kentucky.
Top 10 finishes in basketball are something to be proud of, especially as an OSU fan. Aside from Kentucky, there are 0 teams who every year can realistically compete for a national title. Teams like Kansas, Duke, UNC, etc all have their down years with recruiting and departures from the program.
I'd be very curious to see how you felt about OSU football between 2003 - 2015. I would argue it's easier to win a football national championship than a basketball one (see: Michigan State this year, Virginia this year), and it took us a whole 12 years! You must've gotten really antsy when we didn't win 6 national titles in that time. I'm glad you didn't jump off the wagon.
You complained that Thad's recruiting dropped off and I responded with the 5, 6, and 7 ranked classes in the last five years. You can't respond with "but look at how those classes turned out." You can't just fit your narrative to whatever sounds best to you. Either you want top classes (which we have) or you dont.
I'm copying and pasting what I wrote in reply to someone else who had a similar argument.
OSU was the 5th ranked class in 2015, and 6th in 2014. 2013 we only had two scholarships available, and they went to top-75 players. Two recruits will not a top-25 class make. 2012 we had very few roster spots and the only recruit was Della Valle, who was starting to pan out before jumping ship. One player does not a top-25 class make. 2011 OSU was the 7th ranked class nationally.
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but a 7th ranked class in 2011, a 6th ranked class in 2014, a 5th ranked class in 2015, and two seasons of three total recruits sounds pretty good to me.
If we bring in Wesson, Johnson, and this grad transfer - the 2016 OSU class jumps into the top-10 or top 15. Thad's recruiting hasn't dropped off. Four years ago we were in the Elite 8, five years ago the Final Four. People have recency bias, and it's not fair to Thad. You think UNC fans are mad that they're in the Final Four this year after Roy Williams won 25, 24, and 26 games the last three years (and 20 in 2010)?.
None of the top 5-6 Ohio guys are coming to Ohio State
But the #7 is. The #6 in the state is #68 in the country. Funderburk, #7 in Ohio, is #69. Man oh man that one spot is a dagger. #5 is 10 spots up, #4 is 16 spots up. Ohio State didn't even offer some of these guys. We can't get guys (or miss on guys) we don't recruit.
We aren't Kentucky. We won't be able to land 5 top-30 recruits every year. Thad occasionally wrangles a top, 5-star recruit which is a coup in and of itself. That's just how it works.
I suggest you check out his Twitter account. He's all over the transfer sitch right now. Retweeting Birm and Lyle, just got done talking with Lyle. My guess is with news of the grad transfer the other day, and the offers to Wesson and Johnson (and the potential for him to reclassify) made the writing on the wall a bit easier to read. I highly doubt any of this is a surprise to Thad and his staff.
If it peaked four years ago then what do you call the national championship game appearance 10 years ago?
We aren't recruiting Ohio's best players successfully
Please do explain. If you're talking about Kennard and Bragg, then you're wayyyyy off base. Neither of them wanted to come to OSU from the beginning, and I think it was Kennard that even grew up a Kentucky fan (that lived in Ohio). If we can recruit the rest of the country successfully (D'lo, Lyle, etc), why does it matter that we don't land in-state prospects that have absolutely 0 connection to Columbus??
You have 100% absolutely 0 idea what is going on behind closed doors. First, Harris hasn't been officially announced. Second, Giddens is supposedly leaving for family reasons. Third, Mitchell was already wavering on his commitment to OSU before even coming here. He was a marginal scorer, a greaet passer, and aloof on D. His brother transferred from OSU as a high-profile football recruit to be closer to his family. Who's to say Mickey isn't doing the same?
Grandstaff is his father's puppet. His father spoke to the press as "we" and was mad about PT for a terrible defender and by all indications selfish player. Hope he has success elsewhere, but not with Thad.
Our best players, top scorers are still with the program. Lyle is throwing crazy tweets right now about his "former" teammates. By all indications it was with the players, not the program. Makes room for more who want to don the Scarlet and Grey.
Thad's job isn't any easier or more difficult with this. Literally Thompson is just seeing what NBA teams may think of him and give him areas to work on (hint: most everything).
As for Coach Cal, his entire team, walk-ons and all, declared for the draft this year. No easier, no harder.