My favorite part of following recruiting is predicting where players will end up. Michigan and OSU often battle for the same players, especially in the Midwest. Between 11W and 247sports, I've pulled together a list of players with common offers. I've tried to focus on both schools main targets, but, by default, there are going to be those that are higher on one's list than the other. I have split this into two threads (Offense/Defense) due to concerns of the size of each response. This list could be somewhat fluid, as is recruiting, so if there is someone that you feel was overlooked or comes up in the next few months, they can be added.
The rules are simple: Choose OSU, Michigan, or Field (Any other school) for where you think each recruit will end up. There is no need to add justification or recent news, but it may be included. I have no prizes, but maybe we can convince Gametime to make a custom avatar for the winner. Worst case scenario: upvotes [and pride] will be involved. 2 points for each correct pick, 0 points for incorrect picks, and -1 point if chose OSU and the player commits to Michigan and vice versa.
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand -
DL-Malik McDowell* -
DL-Lawrence Marshall* -
DL-Garrett Dickerson -
DL-Andrew Williams -
CB-Jabrill Peppers -
CB-Nick Watkins -
CB-Jalen Tabor -
CB-Parrker Westphal -
CB-D'Andre Payne - Tennessee
S-Erick Smith* -
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson -
S/ATH-John "Juju" Smith
LB-Kyle Berger* - Ohio State
LB-Nyles Morgan -
LB-Dante Booker* -
LB/ATH-Sam Hubbard* - Ohio State
LB-Chase Winovich -
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* -
ATH-Dravon Henry -
* = From Ohio or Michigan
Bold = Newly added prospects
DL-Da'Shawn Hand -Field
DL-Malik McDowell* - OSU
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Michigan
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU
CB-Nick Watkins -Field
CB-Jalen Tabor -Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* - Michigan (unfortunately I think this happens)
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* -OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Michigan
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
I'm with you Triv except flip McDowell and Marshall; Berger to OSU, Morgan to Michigan.
"Get him a body bag, Yeah!"
Hand = VT
McDowell = ND (As much as I want it to be OSU)
Marshall = OSU
Dickerson = Not sure, I think it'll be an ACC school
Williams = Neither (Georgia?)
Peppers = OSU
Watkins = Not sure, doubt it's OSU
Tabor = SEC
Westphal = Michigan
Payne = SEC
Smith = OSU
Nicholson = OSU
Berger = Michigan
Morgan = OSU
Booker = OSU
Lattimore = OSU
Henry = Not sure
Admittedly, I'm not very familiar with Michigan's targets. Also, I could be wrong about a lot of these. I've been wrong about things before.
I wouldn't cheer for Michigan if they were playing the Taliban.
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - field
DL-Malik McDowell* - UM
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - UM
DL-Garrett Dickerson - field
DL-Andrew Williams - field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU
CB-Nick Watkins - field
CB-Jalen Tabor - field
CB-Parrker Westphal - UM
CB-D'Andrew Payne - field
S-Erick Smith* - field
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* - UM
LB-Nyles Morgan - field
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - field
I think McDowell goes to ND and Marshall to MSU for some reason.
I think OSU gets Lattimore,Booker, Berger, & Nicholson
TSUN gets Westphal
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - field (I know Michigan fans are really happy that they're in his top 5 but he has Va Tech written all over him)
DL-Malik McDowell* - filed (I really really want to say OSU on this but I think he goes to Notre Dame; I really hope I'm wrong)
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - field (I think Michigan State steals him; won't hurt OSU or Michigan because we'll both get good dlines)
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Michigan (really have no idea on him)
DL-Andrew Williams - field (just don't think either gets him)
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU (said Stanford led until OSU came knocking and now we're tied with him not even visiting yet; I'll trust Urban on this)
CB-Nick Watkins - field (really have no idea but I think its SEC or Texas)
CB-Jalen Tabor - field (SEC for him)
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan (been his leader for a while)
CB-D'Andrew Payne - field (I thought he liked us a lot last summer but we've waned on interest for a while; I think he goes to an ACC school)
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU (OSU fan and from Ohio)
LB-Kyle Berger* - OSU
LB-Nyles Morgan - field (Notre Dame seems to be in the drivers seat)
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - filed (I think he stays instate, probably Pitt)
I really want McDowell, too, but he's 6'7" 300 lbs. I think he fits the mold for a 3-4 DE. That's why I think he's all ND.
The 2012 National Champions.
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Michigan
DL-Malik McDowell* - Michigan
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Field
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - Field
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* - Michigan
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
List looks pretty realistic though I'm guessing Hand is a little hopeful?
Just wondering why you think Berger to Michigan? OSU was his first offer he's a Buckeye fan, his good friend Blake Thomas goes to OSU (in fact Thomas's dad was saying Berger will be a Buckeye) and there are quite a few people close to him that indicate he will be a Buckeye.
Just curious on your reasoning.
Michigan getting BOTH Hand and McDowell? Now that's what I call optimism. Michigan's in the top 5 for both, but in the lead for neither. Can't hate you for it though, haha. I'm the same way about OSU's recruiting targets.
is there a particular reason you think *ichigan for hand? or just maize and blue glasses?
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
@ Sir Rick. My best guess would be scummers see us getting Garrett,Booker,McMillian, and sending Berger their way like Green but just don't see that happening and some of our fans probably feel the same way with limited sclorships some don't see us taking four LB'S. But I feel Berger is a buckeye come spring.
When someone shows you who they are believe them! In other words piss a good friend off and see what they really think about you.
It's still early, but he has been quoted saying that the Michigan coaching staff is his favorite. He has three visits to Ann Arbor scheduled, but has yet to visit; still has Michigan in his top 5. He could play immediately and will have Greg Mattison as his position coach. Pipkins and Poggi will offer pretty good company on the interior. Additionally, I think VaTech continues with their downward trend and Michigan will do better than last year.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
That's right, I'm that guy!
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand -OSU
DL-Malik McDowell* -OSU
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - OSU
DL-Garrett Dickerson -OSU
DL-Andrew Williams -OSU
CB-Jabrill Peppers -OSU
CB-Nick Watkins - OSU
CB-Jalen Tabor - OSU
CB-Parrker Westphal -OSU
CB-D'Andrew Payne - OSU
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* -OSU
LB-Nyles Morgan - OSU
LB-Dante Booker* -OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry -OSU
I think Ferns will flip.
If he flips, it won't be to Ohio State. He does not prefer the bigger city vibe of Columbus. He'll end up in State College if he doesn't stick with UM (I think he sticks with UM).
Good player, but OSU losing him will not hurt a bit with the LB's the staff is in on.
Joke
The LB's what?
Love the way you think! +1
"It all goes so fast, and character makes the difference when it's close."
Jesse Owens
If they get all of them, how will there be any room for McMillan, Garrett, Carter, Hurd, Blanding, Fournette, etc?
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
One guy that should be added to this list is Sam Mustipher.
He is an O-Lineman
Actually he's both...DT or OL
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Field (Michigan is a player for sure, but a betting man goes with the field here)
DL-Malik McDowell* - Field (Toss up with ND and UM, but Hoke has never done very well with toss up recruitments - could go either way)
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Ohio State (we still lead, but honestly could see at any of the 3 schools)
DL-Garrett Dickerson - field
DL-Andrew Williams - field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - Field (Ohio State has as good of a shot as anybody, but it's still wide open so I'll hedge my bets)
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan (Hoke does do a really good job of making a first impression and he obviously did in this recruitment - he usually closes well with those recruits)
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - Ohio State (Glenville)
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - Ohio State
LB-Kyle Berger* - Ohio State (with all due respect to Michigan, who I think did a great job just to get involved in this one, but he's a Buckeye)
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field (doubt we're even serious players with all of the linebacker targets we have out there)
LB-Dante Booker* - Ohio State (no doubt)
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - Ohio State (Glenvile)
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field (Pitt will be tough to beat)
Just curious, but where is all this Kyle Berger to UM sentiment coming from? Because he just visited and liked it?
So I copied Hail's list. Then I made changes, which are in bold. I think this will be an interesting year because Michigan's class will be a lot smaller. Maybe 18 total. So here goes:
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Field (He's not coming north. Not to Michigan or OSU.)
DL-Malik McDowell* - Michigan
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Michigan. (I'm optimistic that this will be a recruiting sale closed by Greg Mattison.)
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU (An interesting kid, who quit the famed Don Bosco Prep program. I see him getting far out of New Jersey, coming out to the midwest, and I do see Coach Meyer getting him.)
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* - Michigan
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
Hand won't play at a 'cold weather' school. Visiting OSU during a colder weekend did not help OSU nor UM with increasing his interest level in coming to the B1G. I say Florida gets him (just a hunch).
I think Peppers goes to Stanford or USC (seriously).
The two players I want on this list more than any others are Booker and Lattimore. Booker for the need at LB and Lattimore for the Ted Ginn Jr. type of immediate, game-changing impact.
The DL's and DB's on this list are nice, but OSU's last two classes loaded up with fine talent at both areas.
Ok guys I've been reading this site for years and I've finally taken the time to get off the sidelines and sign up.
DL-Da'Shawn Hand -Field (his lack of enthusiasm with the game says it all)
DL-Malik McDowell* - Field
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - OSU
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU
CB-Nick Watkins -Field
CB-Jalen Tabor -Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB- Kyle Berger* - OSU
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* -OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
Fitzbuck
Toledo - Ohio's right armpit
"A troll by any other name is still a troll".
Way to get in the game, Fitz! Welcome to the conversation.
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Field
DL-Malik McDowell* - UM
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Field (MSU)
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - UM
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* - UM
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field (ND)
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand -field
DL-Malik McDowell* -OSU
DL-Lawrence Marshall* -um
DL-Garrett Dickerson -field
DL-Andrew Williams -field
CB-Jabrill Peppers -osu
CB-Nick Watkins -field
CB-Jalen Tabor -field
CB-Parrker Westphal -um
CB-D'Andrew Payne -field
S-Erick Smith* -OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson -OSU
LB-Kyle Berger* -osu
LB-Nyles Morgan -field
LB-Dante Booker* -OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* -OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry -field
I would be surprised if Berger weren't a Buckeye. And I think that one will be over relatively quickly. This is not a situation in which Ohio State is slow-playing an in-state recruit, which is what has bitten them a couple times the past 2 years. We were in first. Meyer wants him. Meyer gets him. Book it.
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Field
DL-Malik McDowell* - ND
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Mich St
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - tOSU
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - UM
CB-D'Andrew Payne - UM
S-Erick Smith* - Field
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - Field
LB-Kyle Berger* - UM
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - tOSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - tOSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
The 2012 National Champions.
you don't think we get smith or nicholson? I find that hard to believe considering we are rumored to be leading for both and both grew up buckeye fans
You're absolutely correct. I like Nicholson a lot. I think Smith gets a lot of play b/c he's from Glenville, but I like a lot safeties ahead of him- including Darius West. (That's not to say Smith isn't talented).
The 2012 National Champions.
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - field (VT)
DL-Malik McDowell* - field (ND)
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - field (MSU)
DL-Garrett Dickerson - field
DL-Andrew Williams - field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - tOSU
CB-Nick Watkins - field
CB-Jalen Tabor - field
CB-Parrker Westphal - UM
CB-D'Andrew Payne - field
S-Erick Smith* - field
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - tOSU
LB-Kyle Berger* - tOSU
LB-Nyles Morgan - field
LB-Dante Booker* - tOSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - tOSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - field
While I agree with 1styr, I like squirrel's optimism.
It's already been asked, but I'll ask it again since nobody's answered. Why are so many people calling Berger to Michigan?
He came out publicly saying UM and tOSU were tied. He's very close to UM LB Jake Ryan. And I don't see Berger being at the top our board- McMillan, Garrett, Booker are ahead of him (and that's not even taking into consideration that Booker may be a DE in college). I still believe it's 50/50 at this moment.
The 2012 National Champions.
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU and STAYS that way;-)
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed TTUN
DL-Da'Shawn Hand -Va Tech/Field not TTUN...sorry Hail...he won't end up with either of us....
DL-Malik McDowell* -OSU
DL-Lawrence Marshall* -TTUN
DL-Garrett Dickerson -Field
DL-Andrew Williams -Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers -OSU
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor -Field (look for Urban and Co. to go full go if Peppers goes to Stanford).
CB-Parrker Westphal -TTUN
CB-D'Andrew Payne -Field
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - Field
LB-Kyle Berger* -OSU...sticking with my guns on this one. As far as Jake Ryan and TTUN...the same could be said about Blake Thomas and OSU...his dad seemed to be pretty adamant that his son and Berger were doing ok with OSU;-)
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* -OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry -Field
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
I see a lot of Jabrill Peppers to the good guys and I pray you are all right!!
I see a lot of Malik McDowell to OSU sentiment on here (3 picks in this thread, as well as many examples in others), and that confuses me. All of the information I'm seeing has his recruitment as a narrow UM lead over ND, with MSU as the third horse in the race (albeit farther back). Other than blind faith, where are you guys getting that feeling?
McDowell said recently that he doesn't have a top 3, but when he does OSU will be "at the top of the list." Which to me means: ND, MICH, and OSU all have a shot. IMO though, I watched an interview from about a week ago and he looked EXCITED to talk about ND, seemed meh on talking about OSU and MICH, so my feeling is the people who said early on that ND was the team to beat for McDowell will end up being correct. I think ND gets him.
Sounds like you don't have anything to worry about then.
I think Buckeye fans are optimistic that you have a top Michigan recruit in the state who is uncommitted and clearly open to other schools. He's never named a leader and we have Coombs up there doing work to get our foot in the door.
The predictions are certainly optimistic, and maybe unrealistically so, but definitely not blind. McDowell is no done deal to anybody.
I agree with everything you just said. Great response.
If you'd like to keep thinking any recruit worth a damn from up north is not on our radar and interested... that's fine. Our (well at least my) optimism comes from Coach Coombs and the flag that's been planted up in TSUN. Not to mention Webb is committed already and McDowell has said Urban is one of his favorite coaches. Have you heard Malik say this about Dantonio or Hoke? I'd say our optimism is warranted and just...IMO.
Just a link for you to read if you have the time....not to mention $$ in order to read the article in it's entirety.
http://ohiostate.247sports.com/Article/Malik-McDowell-Is-An-Urban-Meyer-Fan-84593
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
"If you'd like to keep thinking any recruit worth a damn from up north is not on our radar and interested...that's fine."
That's nowhere close to my opinion.
I'm not stupid. I know Urban is a great coach and recruiter. With Damon Webb already committed to you guys, it'd make no sense for me to think that Michigan's recruits are untouchable for OSU. I'm also not talking about other recruits. I was specifically discussing only Malik McDowell.
And, as a matter of fact, I didn't say you were wrong. I said I was confused about where the optimism was coming from - and that it looks at first blush like "blind faith." When OSU2002Grad commented, you'll see that I responded in a way that indicated that I was keeping an open mind.
I hadn't seen that article before (it's from 7 months ago, by the way) - and even though it's an interesting piece of info, it doesn't change the (much more recent) info I've been reading about it being between ND/UM.
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Field
DL-Malik McDowell* - Buckeyes
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - UM
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - Buckeyes
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - UM
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith* - UM
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - Buckeyes
LB-Kyle Berger* - Buckeyes
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - Buckeyes
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - Buckeyes
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
* = From Ohio or Michigan
"You're pissed because we went after a committed guy? Guess what, we got nine guys who better go do it again. Do it a little harder next time." -- Urban Frank Meyer -- I LOVE THIS DUDE!! :)
CB-Damon Webb* - Committed OSU (stays committed)
LB-Michael Ferns* - Committed Michigan (stays committed)
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Field
DL-Malik McDowell* - Field
DL-Lawrence Marshall* - Michigan
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - OSU
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Found nothing on this kid so cant say
S-Erick Smith* - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - Field
LB-Kyle Berger* - Michigan
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker* - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore* - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
CB-Damon Webb - OSU commit
LB-Michael Ferns - Michigan commit
DL-Da'Shawn Hand - Michigan
DL-Malik McDowell - Field
DL-Lawrence Marshall - Michigan
DL-Garrett Dickerson - Field
DL-Andrew Williams - Field
CB-Jabrill Peppers - Field
CB-Nick Watkins - Field
CB-Jalen Tabor - Field
CB-Parrker Westphal - Michigan
CB-D'Andrew Payne - Field
S-Erick Smith - OSU
S/ATH- Montae Nicholson - Field
S-John "Juju" Smith - Michigan (You guys recently offered. He is really high on Michigan. I am putting faith in our coaches to take the lead after Juju visits Ann Arbor)
LB-Kyle Berger - Michigan
LB-Nyles Morgan - Field
LB-Dante Booker - OSU
ATH-Marshon Lattimore - OSU
ATH-Dravon Henry - Field
I literally laughed out loud after reading this.
hayesed, i don't see your picks posted. which picks do you disagree with and why? not saying i agree with all of these but i certainly wouldn't be surprised if any happened. i would change this so OSU gets Nicholson, but you can't be sure on any of these. don't think michigan gets marshall either, especially with a small class. i think they take 3 DL, one of which is mone, and the other spots for best available/hand if that's what he decides. will still be tough to get him away from VTech, and if he goes midwest, i think michigan grabs him
Funny how we all think a majority are coming here while UM fans think a majority are going there.
Updated*
Sam Hubbard and Berger to OSU, Payne to UT.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Looking at both the offensive and defensive recruiting a couple of things are interesting to note:
Michigan definitely has the early edge on the offensive side, while the buckeyes have won the majority of the battles decided on the defense side.
Michigan seems to be in the thick of it for many big time prospects (Hand, McDowell, Peppers, etc.) on the defensive side while the Buckeyes are putting a lot of focus on their big time offensive recruits (O-Lineman, Recievers).
Interesting how the programs mirror each other at this point.