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Yet another thread about Lebron

IGotAWoody's picture
May 14, 2014 at 11:31pm
89 Comments

I'm just gonna leave this right here.

>>Through 8 games, LeBron James has posted a player efficiency rating of 33.4, a mark that would be the 3rd-highest all-time in a single postseason among players that logged at least 300 minutes. James holds the all-time mark of 37.4 set back in 2009 and George Mikan sits in second on that list with a PER of 33.6 in 1954.Michael Jordan's highest PER in a single postseason was 32.0 back in 1991 when he captured his first title. Kevin Durant, this season's MVP, has posted a PER of 22.7 this postseason.

Also...

>>LeBron James is averaging 30.1 points and has an effective field goal percentage of 62.3 this postseason. That would be the highest effective field goal percentage in a single postseason in NBA history by a player that averaged 30+ PPG (min. 300 minutes played). 

And one more thing....

>>From Elias: LeBron James is one of four players in NBA history averaging at least 25 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in games with a chance to clinch a postseason series.

Say what you will about the guy, but it's undeniable that he's putting together some historic numbers and sustained excellence. He's about to play in his 6th Eastern Conference Finals in the last 8 yrs. I'll be curious to see where the comments go with this....

 

osu07asu10's picture

Igotawoody...for LeBron...

"They don't know what they don't know." - Coach Mick

+3 HS
IGotAWoody's picture

If lovin' Lebron is WRONG... I don't wanna be RIGHT!!

 - License to kill gophers (wolverines, badgers, etc) by the government of the United Nations

Bolt's picture

You're wrong.

 

Joking...I don't care for the guy at all but will never be so blinded by disdain that I'll claim him to be anything other than one of the two best basketball players I've ever seen with my own two eyes. 

+2 HS
Buckinut34's picture

Here's the part that amazes me about  people.   Lebron is the best player on the planet BY far.  Not close.  But just because he's the best, why does everyone give him a pass for being the most arrogant person on earth?   I don't hate Lebron because he left Cleveland.  His decision and he's allowed to do what he wants.  However, the way he did it was despicable.  Just another "look at me" moment.  Does anyone besides me think its ridiculous that he has THE CHOSEN ONE tattooed on his back.  Who does this?   Can you be any more arrogant than that?   Maybe time has passed me by, but today's atheletes sicken me in general.  I guess I'll just wait till Cam Newton does the Superman again after a 30 yard run when his team is down 30 points.   geeeeez

Adam21's picture

Former PSU and current GB Packer TE Andrew Quarless has "God's" on the back of one arm and "Gift" on the back of the other arm. 

I am in NO WAY saying this is ok. In fact, I think both are horrible in taste. I am just pointing out that people do get ridiculous egotistical things tattooed on themselves.

 

saltybuck61's picture

I have always been a LeBron fan, even when he left Cleveland. He wanted to win a championship, and I can certainly respect that. He also raised a junkload of money for the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. He manages to be a huge star without being in the spotlight for the wrong reasons. He is only in the news because he is probably the greatest basketball player of this generation. Is he the greatest of all time? Probably not yet. However, he has been dominant and is certainly up there.

+2 HS
RedStorm45's picture

He also raised a junkload of money for the Boys and Girls Clubs of America.

If you're talking about "The Decision," only part of the reported amount ever made it to B&G CoA.

+3 HS
Bolt's picture

Yeah, it's hard to say that that presentation was anything other than a big ol' ego-stroke. And in regards to the charity, it begs the age old question: if Lebron James and/or ESPN do charitable work but no one is there to document it...did they really do the charity work?

+2 HS
RedStorm45's picture

All charity work and donations to charity by big-time athletes, celebrities, and organizations/businesses is really just advertising.  To try to butter it up as a donation to charity (when roughly half never made it to the charity in the case of The Decision) is misleading and a joke.

+1 HS
PittBuckeye's picture

No sports as bad as golf about that though, anyone who has a lot of extra time look that up sometime, some financial guy found out that donating a certain amount gives guys who make that much money enough of a tax break so they actually end up making money off of donating to charity (run on sentence over).

m5987usus's picture

Lebron is the best player in the world and by a wide wide margain. The haters are gonna hate and that is fine, but he's the best by far.

O-H!

+2 HS
sivaDavis's picture

When you're 6'8 and around 260 lbs, moving around like that, doing everything he does, scoring, passing, rebounding.....it's a thing to watch. I won courtside seats when he was still in Cleveland in 2009 and his game is unbelievable. Do i hate that he left the Cavs? Of course. Do I hate him for it, not really. It's a business. We are getting to watch a future hall of famer in his prime. Could go down in the top 10 or top 5 greatest players ever to play. Love him or hate him, you're witnessing history, gotta appreciate it. 

"I've had smarter people around me all my life, but I haven't run into one yet that can outwork me. And if they can't outwork you, then smarts aren't going to do them much good." - Woody Hayes

+4 HS
JakeBuckeye's picture

Could go down in the top 10 or top 5 greatest players ever to play.

I know you're trying to compliment him by saying that but that is a horrific slight towards him on your part. At the rate he is playing at and the amount of years he has left he is on track to be either the best basketball player of all time or the second best of all time, taking a backseat only to Jordan. I would argue that if he retired at this moment, right now, he'd already be in the top 10 or top 5 players of all time, let alone at the end of his career.

PittBuckeye's picture

Right now he is not top 10 or even close to top 5 of all time. Not that I disagree with where you're going, but he hasn't done it long enough to be up there. To be top 5 you have to do it over a long career, he's shown every bit of the durability it takes to do that, but he hasn't actually done it. Yet.

 

+2 HS
stubbzzz's picture

The first year after he left I was crushed and angry.  Then I realized, I never even watched basketball before Lebron.  Why waste my time being pissed and miss out on watching the best player since Jordan while he's in his prime?  I still wish he'd come back to Cleveland and make things right, but i'm going to watch him regardless.

+2 HS
JakeBuckeye's picture

A return to Cleveland is almost certainly in the cards, IMO. Whether he opts out and its next year, or its later on in his career after more championships is the question to me.

PittBuckeye's picture

He wouldn't come back next year for the very reason you talked about in the post you made above this one. He wants to be talked about as the greatest ever when he's done, and if he comes to the Cavs they aren't likely to be a dynasty unless some guys turn it around big time including the most recent #1 overall draft choice who shall remain nameless.

To be considered one of the best ever you have to have rings like Mike, and on towards Russ. I don't think Cleveland has the team to do that right now. If that pick had turned out the way Kyrie did I think Lebron would come back in a heartbeat, he'd be on a very good very young team which would extend his career and give him a lot of good chances to win it all. 

+1 HS
Jdadams01's picture

He's the best player in the world. Too bad watching the NBA is painful.

+6 HS
CRAFTFORTHESTEAL's picture

Durant is the best player in the world!

Pay It Forward!

Bolt's picture

I like Durant a lot and dislike LeBron a lot. But there's no question who the best player in the world is...and his name rhymes with JeBron Lames.

+3 HS
PittBuckeye's picture

When Durant is on which is most nights there is a question, everyone wants to act like there's this huge gap there but there really isn't. Lebron is a better player overall but not by a ton. Durant is a better offensive player period, but not by enough to make up for LBJ on defense.

+1 HS
Son of Sevenless's picture

Lebron quit against Boston. Saw it happen. He sucks.

+4 HS
Jack Fu's picture

Your first sentence is true. Your last is most certainly not.

That's why I don't completely buy the "he left because he wanted a title and he couldn't win one in Cleveland" justification. That's patently bullshit. They didn't surround him with the best possible players, but they had the best record in the NBA each of his last two years there; they were clearly good enough to win it all, if he hadn't blatantly quit.

+3 HS
BrewstersMillions's picture

 

4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off

-3 HS
BucksFan2000's picture

The way he's playing right now is incredible.  I'm a big Jordan fan, but I've got to admit LeBron is making that GOAT discussion more and more difficult each season.

LeBron's big strike is "the decision" obviously, but Jordan going to play baseball wasn't the brightest thing either.  Jordan was more intense, but LeBron seems to be building his intensity each season.  I'd still pick Jordan, but I wonder what I'll be saying a few years from now.

luckynutz's picture

The thing you have to give Michael jordan is that he made the decision to leave basketball after losing his father. You could see the emotion in him that post season. That was a life altering event, and it took its toll on him. He walked away on top, and had already accomplished so much as a basketball player. He decided to take a shot at a childhood dream of being a baseball player. Dont fault him one bit for that.

+2 HS
Jack Fu's picture

The thing you have to give hold against Michael Jordan is that he made the decision David Stern forced him to leave basketball after losing his father for a year as a covert suspension because of his gambling addiction.

Fixed that for you.

+1 HS
Bolt's picture

We'll call it a convenient excuse, but the result remains...Jordan left the league for over 1 and a half years at the height of his prime. Could've accomplished even more and potentially won 8 consecutive titles.

+1 HS
PittBuckeye's picture

What he said isn't a convenient excuse it's complete conjecture that people repeat till they convince themselves it's true. Conspiracy theories get some traction and then are presented as fact.

Jack Fu's picture

It makes more sense than the best player in the game, at the height of his abilities, randomly taking a year off to play a different sport.

But yes, it is "conjecture." As is literally any other opinion on the issue.

dc28's picture

LeBron is a great player but I don't care for him at all. Watch his facial and body language during games and he is nothing but a cry baby. He must think he is the only player in the NBA to never commit a foul. He must also think that he is the only player that goes to the hoop and miss and it should be a foul. He dominates games but complains way too much. Every time he gets fouled why does he always hold his face, he is known for flopping and traveling. He is a physical specimen but come on LeBron just play the game the way it is supposed to be played. If you are such a basketball historian as you preach then you will realize that the great players in the past didn't wine or complain as much as you do. Quit being all about ME ME ME and wanting the lime light and play the game pure, not for entertainment so you can be on ESPN all the time and they can keep reminding you how great you are.

rdubs's picture

I think we forget the past pretty quickly.  All players, and probably especially the greats, work the referees in one way or another.  Maybe LeBron is more demonstrative with his expressions at times, but that seems like a pretty weak reason to hate a guy.  

I am not sure why you think he is all MEMEMEME, he regularly dishes to his teammates when that is the right move at crunch time.  Players like Kobe or Iverson certainly wouldn't do that.  His numbers are the reason people talk about him.  Look at the OPs comment he has put together some of the best post season numbers ever, that deserves the attention and that is why he gets it.

Is he better than Jordan or Russell or Wilt?  I don't know, it is so hard to compare.  But he is the only reason I watch the NBA much like Jordan was back in the 90s.

+3 HS
Gametime's picture

Hey, hey now, don't knock Allen Iverson. That was a guy who was all heart and literally willed his team the Finals. When he actually played for a better team and in a better system (in Denver under George Karl) he took 4 less shots per game while elevating his FG% from 42% to 45%, 3PT% from 30% to 35%, FT% from 77% to 79%, & AST from 6 to 7.

That dude may have been selfish & foolish at times off the court, but he NEVER quit on the court. 

...I too dream in color and in rhyme
So I guess I'm one of a kind in a full house
Cause whenever I open my heart, my soul or my mouth
A touch of God rains out...

+2 HS
Denny's picture

Tim Duncan—who has played for the same team his entire career, has been breathtakingly consistent throughout his entire career, and is 'refreshingly boring' to many—is a giant crybaby. Everyone in the NBA is. It's not just LeBron.

Taquitos.

+3 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

No one will ever be better than Jordan in my opinion. If you're a person whose watched both, you have to agree. Talent and skill can be equal, but Jordan had more drive. It's hard to put in words. He just had "it".  

+3 HS
rdubs's picture

What if Lebron wins again this year?  And wins 2 or 3 more over the rest of his career?  How can you measure "it" or "drive" especially if they end up with nearly identical numbers of championships?  

I would probably argue that their main differences are that Jordan was more skilled at basketball, but that Lebron is much more dominant as an athlete.

+5 HS
brandonbauer87's picture

I don't care too much about the championships. Had Jordan not left to play baseball, he likely has 2 more. I also think they could have won at least 1 more after 98. 

Jordan brings up rules differences, and I think that is a somewhat valid point. Do those Pistons teams beat the Bulls if they're not abusing Jordan?  

I don't discredit Lebron for chasing a championship, I just give Jordan more credit for building from the bottom. Those Bulls teams weren't great. Pippen was a very good player, but without Jordan, he's not the same. Grant and Rodman were both good, but not exceptional. Those teams were full of guys that played their role. 

Above all, the eye test is what really settles it for me. Forget stats, Jordan was just better.  He had a different mentality. 

+6 HS
buckeyestu's picture

Even though Lebron and Bird are my two favorite players all time, I do agree that Jordan is the better player of the 3.

Squirrel Master's picture

I'm in the camp that Jordan is the best but you can't say Jordan had to carry a lesser team. Pippen and Rodman WERE exceptional. Both constantly were in the playoffs with multiple teams. Rodman had championships with the Pistons. They are all-time greats. You could say Shaq for that last year with Cleveland but he was well past his prime at that moment. Nobody else on those Cavs teams were even close to Pippen and Rodman. Hell, I don't think anyone on the Cavs was close to Ron Harper and Horace Grant! Grant was a beast for an undersized post player.

a better way to look at it, when Jordan left the bulls to go play baseball the Bulls still made the playoffs both years. And if you forgot, Jordan did come back mid season in 95, and they lost in the playoffs with him. The Bulls was a decent team without Jordan. The Cavs were straight up awful after Lebron left. Granted Shaq and others left at the same time but there was a bigger discrepancy after Lebron left. The Cavs weren't a decent team at all without Lebron.

Lebron meant more to his team than Jordan did, but Jordan was the better player by far. He just had a good team also.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+3 HS
Bolt's picture

The year Jordan returned the Bulls were essentially a .500 team until he rejoined 2/3 of the way through the season. They were in no way contenders that year til Mike came back. The Cavs team, had it stayed intact and healthy would've probably been a .500 team as well. The two seasons after Bron left Cleveland the Cavs were awful, but the teams were almost entirely different. Most everyone was either gone or injured if not gone. They were trotting out d-leaguers and just flat out horrid players that never set foot on the same floor as LeBron. Anthony Parker and JJ Hickson were about the only holdovers that significantly played with LeBron that also weren't injured. 

+2 HS
daveyt11's picture

Its funny you say that Brandon, I saw the 30 for 30 on the Pistons "BAD BOYS"...I have to wonder, would they have won with their ultra physical style in todays NBA? and conversely, would LeBron be able to drive to the hoop in the BAD BOYS era. Interesting.

+1 HS
RedStorm45's picture

Did Jordan fail in the Finals?  "Twice?" (I use the quotes because in '07 LBJ was playing with Sasha Freaking Pavlovic as his starting 2 guard haha)

Squirrel Master's picture

he did fail to defeat the Pistons in back to back years not even making the Finals. I think making the Finals is better than that. Now if Jordan won the championship every year he played and never lost, then that would mean something. But its not like Jordan never lost. Just because Jordan never lost in the finals doesn't mean anything because he has lost in the playoffs. Bill Russell won 11 championships but still lost one. I don't think it should count against him since he won 11 out of 13 years playing.

its the same argument with Joe Montana as the best QB ever because he never lost a Super Bowl. I don't buy that at all.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+2 HS
RedStorm45's picture

Yes, the "Championship" test is kind of lame, but LeBron was awful in 2011.  MJ never averaged less than 29 ppg in any postseason.  LBJ "only" averaged 23.7 that year and was pretty bad in the Finals.  He was ok in the Finals in '07 - and as I said, it's almost half a pass from me that year because of the lineup.  He was also a pretty bad shooter (~42% from the field) his first few postseasons.

Squirrel Master's picture

that is where I do agree, Lebron played awful in a finals. Jordan was always great in the finals, win or lose! that is a difference that makes me still feel Jordan is the best, whether he won or lost I never saw him struggle when he wanted to play at his best.

of course the Wizards Jordan is a whole other story! lol

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

Bolt's picture

Wizards Jordan was still even mindblowing a little bit. The stuff he was doing at that age was pretty remarkable. Dropping 51 in a game at 38 (and a 45 point, 10 rebound 7 assist performance in that game's encore)? I think that's a testament to how damn good he was. Droppin' 40 on people after he turned 40? When all of his athleticism left him he could still dominate people. Just couldn't do it quite as consistently.

+2 HS
Buckeyevstheworld's picture

Just couldn't do it quite as consistently.

His love of cigars is one of the reasons for that.

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

brandonbauer87's picture

If anyone wants to meet me in the premium lounge for beers and Jordan talk, I'm always available. Cigars on me. 

+1 HS
Seattle Linga's picture

Don't forget one thing - Jordan would never have chased a ring 

BucksFan2000's picture

So you can guarantee that if Jordan was drafted by the Cavs, then they let Boozer get away a year later and eventually signed Larry Hughes as their big-name free agent, that Jordan would not have left town?

Jordan, Magic and Bird landed in great situations.  They didn't have to leave.  Look at the history of the NBA's all-time greats.  Plenty of others switched teams too.

brandonbauer87's picture

Would Jordan have requested Shaq and Antawn Jamison, only to leave when that didn't work out?

+1 HS
Bolt's picture

The Bulls actually sucked when they drafted Jordan. 27-55 the year before in fact. Jordan got lucky with the Pippen drafting, but that doesn't always happen. I would have a hard time believing Jordan would leave a team that won over 60 games in back to back seasons (like the Cavs did) and was going to have cap space to spend going forward.

And before we get into the whole 'that was all LeBron and no one else cause those Cavs teams really sucked' nonsense (you don't win 60 games with a bad team. Ever.), I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why LeBron didn't waltz down to a team with two other superstars and supposedly a million times more help than he had in Cleveland and automatically start winning 60+ games without blinking? If his supporting cast was so pathetic like everyone claims, James should've won 70 games a couple times by now, considering he himself has gotten significantly better since going to Miami. LeBron's team the last couple years didn't have a true second superstar, but it was one of the best defensive teams in the league, it had size, athleticism, rebounding, hustle, 3-pt shooting and depth (Danny Green was the 12 man off the bench for that team). 

CRAFTFORTHESTEAL's picture

The Heat and LeBum have played weak teams, the East in general has been weak for the last decade or so. Playing Memphis and LA is a lot more challenging, that may be why Durant's is not as high. He will never be greater than Jordan, Jordan played in an era when Basketball was at its peak.

Pay It Forward!

+1 HS
PittBuckeye's picture

I think I've now read about every basketball argument commonly thrown out in one thread.

Can't compare them it isn't fair. The Pistons who beat Jordan's Bulls would have fouled out their entire roster by the end of the first quarter today. Whereas todays guys flopping back then would have been laughed at and embarrassed on a daily basis, even the refs would have yelled at them to grow up. On the flip side the athletes are better, we know more about what to eat, how and when to train, and how and when to replenish yourself than we ever have before. Lebron James dropped in at the start of Jordans career would be the best player in the league, but he'd also get his ass kicked.

+1 HS
dc28's picture

RDUBS, He is ME ME ME when it comes to media spotlight. He has to comment on everything. If his name is not being mentioned then he has to say something to stay relevant. On the court he is not a ME ME ME player but off the court, he always has to do something to stay in the spotlight. Example, the Treyvon Martin case and he deciding his teammates should take a photo with hoodies on, or the Clippers (when they took their warmups off and put them in the center court and wore their gear inside out for pregame) when they did that, why did LeBron and the Miami do it? I don't remember any other team doing it. To me it just seems like he loves the attention and SEEKS the attention.

If he is so great, why did he have to leave in the prime of his career to join up with another superstar? It wouldn't be too difficult to win championships when you are playing with 2 other all stars. I believe guys like Jordan and Kobe only had one other superstar on their squad (Jordan Pippen, Kobe Shaq). He can put up all the stats he wants, but playing with Wade and Bosh can really help your numbers.

Working the referees is one thing but constantly crying about every foul is little ridiculous. It is so funny that he drives to the lane and no one stops him, he dunks it then he gets excited but when that boy from the Bobcats fouled him while he was going to the hoop LeBron got all mad as if to say "I am LeBron, and you shouldn't foul me when I am driving to the hoop". Why does LeBron feel so entitled?

As far as Kobe and Iverson and even Jordan, they have all said the same thing, "I am not getting paid millions upon millions of dollars to pass the ball during crunch time. Sometimes I make the shots and sometimes I don't, but they pay me to shoot."

-2 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

That last part, I think many forget that Jordan, Kobe and Iverson did pass the ball in crunch situations! Especially Jordan and Kobe, because they understood that they draw double teams in those spots. Iverson rarely figured that out, he just chucked it whenever he could.

but I can point out many times that Paxson, Kerr and Armstrong took game winning shots off passes from Jordan. Kobe dished to Shaq on the biggest play of their three peat (you know the highlight of him throwing it up to Shaq for the dunk). He also dished many times to Derrick Fisher and Robert Horry (big shot Bob was dubbed at that time).

Jordan and Kobe might say stuff like that but many times they were not the ones hitting the clutch shot. They had good reasons, it was the smart play, but lets not act like they ALWAYS took the last shot to win games.

and as said above, Jordan cried foul many times too. He always worked the refs. Kobe not so much but that was because he would just walk away pissed instead.

and did you really just say "that boy from the Bobcats"?

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+1 HS
ShowThemOhiosHere's picture

*yawn* that's nice

Class of 2010.

buckeyestu's picture

Lebron is my all time favorite NBA player. I use to root for the Boston Celtics before Cleveland had a team. Bird use to be my favorite player, but now is he my second favorite followed by Michael Jordan.

EvanstonBuckeye's picture

If we're picking all-time teams and I get first dibs, I'm going with Jordan.
 

+5 HS
Fear The Elf's picture

He's still a douche.

+5 HS
edr4225's picture

Lebron James is a cry baby and a flopper, hes the best in the game today, but he will never touch the GOAT MJ.  Keep in mind Lebron said if you cant beat em join em and went to team up with two allstars, while jordan said i will make my teammates better.  people say jordan had pippen, but Jordan MADE pippen!! Lebron has made nobody!  enough said.  

lets go bucks!!

+5 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

PLEASE!!!! Jordan made Pippen! GTFOH

I can easily say the Pistons made Jordan, when they kept kicking his ass until he became what he needed to be and got help from Pippen and Grant. Lets not act like Jordan was a champion BEFORE Pippen arrived okay.

and I can easily say that Phil Jackson made Jordan. Jordan couldn't win it all before Phil came around.

so really, Jordan wasn't Jordan till Phil and Pippen came on board.

but yes Lebron did leave a crappy team to go play with other all-stars. I won't argue that!

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

+2 HS
edr4225's picture

ok good point about the pistons, they did motivate Jordan to create the breakfast club to improve the team, but in the process he made his teammates better including pippen like i said.  dont tell me pippen turns into a nba top 50 player without jordan, going vs jordan in practice everyday was huge.  It well noted Jordan practiced harder than any player during his time.  Phil Jackson did help but players win the games, not the coaches. enough said 

lets go bucks!!

Gametime's picture

Jordan said it himself that if not for having to be tempered by Detroit, that they would've never been the team they were. Without the Bad Boys, the Bulls don't become what they were. That includes Jordan, Pippen, & Phil.

When Jordan came back though, I'd say he deserved more credit because the 95-96 MJ was probably the best incarnation. 

...I too dream in color and in rhyme
So I guess I'm one of a kind in a full house
Cause whenever I open my heart, my soul or my mouth
A touch of God rains out...

+1 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

and as I have said Jordan is the best, I just don't know why people don't want to give the rest of the team credit too.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

BucksFan2000's picture

I'm going to disagree... slightly.

Pistons or not, Jordan played with a hatred of his opponent I'm not sure anyone else ever has.  Go look up his HOF induction speech - the guy is still angry!  It's probably not good for everyday life, but it's just his DNA.

So I'd say the Pistons helped that team be great, but Jordan was an assassin anyway.  No one person can win a championship alone, but his desire to destroy was always there.

+2 HS
edr4225's picture

Now thats what im talking about!!!! great comments BUCKSFAN2000   standing ovation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

lets go bucks!!

Bolt's picture

@squirrel, you can't say Phil and Pippen made Jordan. That'd be a gross exaggeration. They helped put him over the top...but Jordan was still crushing people before Phil and Pippen. Once MJ reached his prime and did have the components to help put him over the top, that's when he started beating the Pistons.

Jeeves's picture

TBF, right now the Eastern Conference stinks to high heaven. He is still one of the 10 all time greats though.

Bolt's picture

And what's sad is these last couple years are the best the East has been since the Bulls disbanded at the end of the 90s. The year the Cavs went to the finals the East was an all-time joke.

Buckeyevstheworld's picture

Really? I thought the 2009-10 season was the best year for the East since the 90s.

"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.

BAR43's picture

There is no arguing Lebron's athletic ability and crazy skill level. The one thing that will always be questioned is his ability to deal with adversity. I think he has matured since leaving Cleveland, but the stigma of him running away somewhere else to win will always be in the back of his and all the fans' minds.

+1 HS
Earle's picture

The offseason is dark and full of Lebron threads.

+2 HS
Squirrel Master's picture

Jordan is the best ever, but lets not act like Jordan did everything by himself with no talent around him and one arm behind his back. Jordan was great but he did have a decent team and the best head coach in the game.

I saw a UFO once.......it told me to have a goodyear!

BrewstersMillions's picture

People are really running out of things to criticize James for. He used to be a guy who couldn't win the big one-two titles with a probable third in the pipeline should effectively kill that one. Then its the fact that he's lost NBA finals series-something Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird have all done. Michael didn't but as is correctly pointed out, Jordan was facing the same questions about the Pistons at the middle part of his career. All players have humps they need to over come.

The new thing is body language. I find this one especially troubling when Michael Jordan is being brought up. I grew up in the heart of the dynasty years and believe me when I say this-Michael Jordan was the biggest whiner, complainer, and ref worker in NBA history. His skill as a player is probably unrivaled, his on the court antics will never be. Michael Jordan punched team mates in practice for not keeping score. Michael Jordan drove Bill Wennington to near tears every day in the 1997 season. Michael Jordan would publicly attack management and ownership if he felt he wasn't getting the help he needed. The things that made Michael great were the things that made him basketball's biggest dick. If James is being criticized for his "body language"-actions that are subjectively classified as bad or detrimental, what do Jordan's actual actions do to his reputation? See I  have to bring this up because anytime this comparison is made, James is criticized for things other than his play. So he's a whiner-So was Jordan. He flops-So did Jordan. He complains-so did Jordan. He is a "ME" guy-so was Michael. It really bothers me that the things James is getting heat for now (see what I did there) are the same things Jordan did and was loved for  in Chicago.

If you want to compare the two, look at the impact they have one games. No, LeBron doesn't have six rings. That is a good thing that people who don't like LeBron realize you can't have six of something until you've had three of something when said something is obtained one at a time. By that same metric, where is Robert Horry's name in the conversation? Big Game Bob has more rings than LeBron...so Horry>James? No, no one is saying that because its a fallacy and the weakest criticism of James to date. A lack of rings makes not a great player. Since James has them (and it going to get a few more) that argument is on life support at best.

I've chimed in at every turn of the LeBron threads because I  have a simple goal in mind-admit you don't like James as a person and that dislike impacts your opinions of him as a player. That's what it always comes down to. If you can't see he is one of the greatest players in NBA history, then your opinion is based solely on your dislike of the man-when that happens, you need to feel the same about Jordan because he was hands down the most unlikeable guy of his era.

 

4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off

+1 HS
Fear The Elf's picture

He's still a douche.

+2 HS
dc28's picture

BrewstersMillions, I am not saying LeBron is not a great player. I just think he is a quitter (can be proven), ring chaser (can be proven), attention seeker (can be proven), etc....

I would of loved to have seen this guy play back in the 80's and early 90's when players were not getting fined and assessed with flagrant fouls. I would of liked to seen LeBron attack the hoop with Charles Barclay, Horace Grant, Shawn Kemp, Charles Oakley, Bill Lambeer, Rick Mahorn, etc... protecting the middle. I know one thing, he wouldn't attack the hoop as aggressive as he does now. Over an 82 game season and playoffs, that is alot of bumps and bruises he would have taken.

Eph97's picture

Oh, I think he would be dishing it out too. 6'8 260 is not something pleasant to be on the receiving end.

+2 HS
BrewstersMillions's picture

Thank you. Thank you for saying this. LeBron would be just as effective then as he would today. Do people forget how big LeBron is? Or how fast he is?

And to the other comment-those things you say are opinions. They can't be proven. Can't be proven he quit-can be alleged. Can't be proven he chased a ring (like every athlete does in some way shape or form)-can be alleged.

4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off

+2 HS
Denny's picture

PFTCommenter, is that you?

Taquitos.

Eph97's picture

As a Cavs fan, I was angry at LeBron when he left. However, after watching the train wreck that is the Cavs the last few seasons I don't fault him at all. I'm more angry at Danny Ferry and Dan Gilbert. In 7 years they could not get LeBron another superstar player. You need at least another superstar to win, or at least 2 almost-superstars (Spurs). Even OKC got Westbrook and Hardin for Durant. LeBron had a series of stiffs and a fat Shaq in his last season. I just hope that he would consider coming back to the Cavs because playing with Kyrie Irving now must be more enticing that playing with an aging Dwayne Wade.

+1 HS
RedStorm45's picture

I just hope that he would consider coming back to the Cavs because playing with Kyrie Irving now must be more enticing that playing with an aging Dwayne Wade.

They just fired Mike Brown (again) for him...

RedStorm45's picture

'04 - Luke Jackson, 1st round 10th pick (played 46 games in Cleveland, 0 starts.  Out of basketball after '08 season)

'05 - no picks

'06 - Shannon Brown, 1st round, 25th pick (played 39 of his 403 NBA career games for Cleveland) 

'06 - Daniel Gibson, 2nd round, 42nd overall pick (397 regular season games for Cavs, 77 starts, and 50 games/2 starts in the playoffs.  Production has declined with LeBron gone)

'06 - Ejike Ugboaja, 2nd round, 55th pick - never played for Cavs.

'07 - no picks

'08 - JJ Hickson, 1st round, 19th pick  (played 223 games for the Cavs, plus 11 more in the playoffs)

'09 - Christian Eyenga, 1st round 30th pick (played 50 games for Cleveland, now in Europe)

'09 - Danny Green, 2nd round 46th pick (played 20 games for Cavs, waived, now with the Spurs)

'10 - no picks

These are the players the front office drafted after LeBron.  Let's not mention the players added via trade or free agency at the end of their careers - Donyell Marshall, Joe Smith, Jamison, Shaq, etc.  It was quite pathetic.

+1 HS
PittBuckeye's picture

That list was pretty depressing, thanks for reminding me of all of that. Dick.

+1 HS
Fear The Elf's picture

Yeah, it wasn't like Danny Ferry was 2x runner up for GM of the year. Or that only one of those picks was a lottery pick. Or that James refused to recruit Ray Allen and Michael Redd as FAs, but has recruited everyone he can to Miami. Or that the Cavs also drafted Boozer, who lied to a blind man to get out of his contract.

RedStorm45's picture

Notice how I focused on the draft picks AFTER Lebron.  Other teams seem to do fine in the draft without lottery picks.  I'm not really sure what Danny Ferry did to warrant finishing runner up as a GM twice.  Shaq?  Leon Powe?  Anthony Parker?  Antawn Jamison?  Sure, the Cavs did well when he was there as GM, but that was mainly because LBJ was carrying those teams.
 

+2 HS
IGotAWoody's picture

2x RUNNER UP for GM of the Year?! Wow! That's almost impressive! The funny thing is, before Lebron won his titles, he was a 2x runner up for NBA Champion, and got a lot of grief for that. The hypocrisy is strange, isn't it?

As for "James refused to recruit Ray Allen and Michael Redd" to the Cavs, that's nothing but hearsay. Also, drafting Boozer but not being able to sign him is like finishing 2nd for GM of the Year. Close, but no cigar.

 - License to kill gophers (wolverines, badgers, etc) by the government of the United Nations

-1 HS
Groveport Heisman's picture

 

Mark my words..I don't need acceptance. I'm catching interceptions on you innocent pedestrians.

+1 HS