Eleven Warriors

I am sick to my stomach right now.    What ass-hats lose three at home to end the season?  DAMN IT

that base running by bruce in the 7th was completely stupifying. i have no clue where any of that crap came from. I think i saw about 4 hit and runs all season and suddenly we're doing it late in a knock out playoff game with two runners on and no outs... tear...i hate baseball.

i saw that too CC.  wouldn't put too much salt in gamecast. I kept flipping back and forth cause we have a tv at work, it looked like the ump kept it pretty real.  Missed some and not others.  its baseball.  The damn reds were the ones sitting at the plate with their bats on their shoulders for every single first pitch.  SMH.

stu, all this horrendous ohio and championship stuff (*sans '03) started with the tribe in 97... sorry if you like them.

browns '95?

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

Up Next: The Detroit Tigers.

didnt lose this series in game 4 or game 5, lost it in game 3. votto gets on to lead off the 8th in a tie game. team hasnt hit all game, so you pinch run, steal 2nd, sacrifice to 3rd, and then you just need a sac fly to take the lead and give the ball to chapman. instead, dusty lets everyone just swing away, three straight outs, and we lose on an error in extras. table set for epic collapse.

"Winning in the playoffs? Ain't nobody got time fo' that!"- Dusty Baker

Yeah, I'd feel bad for the Reds, but thinking back on my memories of supremo asshat Pete Rose, and all the grief I got from Reds fans in the '80s because my team wasn't any good...um, not really! 

Reds fan here, majorly bummed.  I missed a lot of game 3 but tuned in just in time to see Rolen's error that set up the loss.  Didn't know what happened in the 8th until now ... ugg.

Blame Urban for jumping on the bandwagon. We all know he's a closet Tribe fan.

My thoughts on the hit-and-run: It's an iffy call, but if you are going to do it, the rule for the hitter is make contact with anything close. The ump had a big pitcher friendly strikezone all day, you gotta put the bat on that ball. Yes, Bruce took off kinda late too, but I put the heat on Hannigan on that play.

And Hannigan's passball was bigger in Game 3 than Rolen's booble. The runners are on 1st and 2nd and not scoring on Rolen's error if you Hannigan didn't let that pitch go by him. Hannigan has to take some heat for this collapse in my mind.

I gotta tell ya, that loss yesterday was the toughest loss I've dealt with since I was a kid.  I'm 31 now, and I just don't get to high or low with the outcome of sports anymore.  I'm pissed if the Buckeyes lose but about 20 minutes later I move on with my life.  Yesterday hurt bad.  I really haven't been that just sad about a loss since 95 when I was 14 and they lost to Braves in the NLCS.  This team was so much fun to watch all year and just a great bunch. 

I honestly didn't believe they would win the world series though.  All year long they failed miserably to drive in runs with men in scoring position.  They had a weak bench too.  I had a feeling they would lose in the NLCS this year.  I was a little off.  The offseason Walt will go out and find them a leadoff hitter so they can finally can Stubbs in CF.  Cairo is gone and Rolen is going to retire, so they can go out and add some nice pieces to this bench.  I've said all season it wasn't a complete enough team to win the World Series and I was right.  I think it was damn near a miracle they pulled off 97 wins with all the adversity they've faced this year really. 

Hodge, all I can say is they'll be back man.  Most of this team is under contract through 2015, and they have a lot of good young talent in the minors that will either find it's way on the roster or will be traded for pieces the team needs to be more complete.  I feel your pain though man.  I was 9 years old when Benzinger made that catch in foul territory to clinch the World Series title, and I'll never forget my mom dad and me in my room jumping up and down and yelling.  I've defintely had happier moments in my life, but at that time as a 9 year old, I didn't think life could get any better than that! 

I hope to God Dusty stays.  The only guy who I'd be okay trading Dusty for is Francona, and he's off the market.  Players love  playing for Dusty, and if the Reds actually got some run support/clutch hitting in any of the three games at home, he's being worshipped for his astute pitching management of game one.

I am glad that the Reds managed to lock this core down for the next few years, I say it's time to deal Stubbs and Heisey to pull in a guy like Denard Span (which the increased payroll from jettisoning Cairo and Rolen should allow), for one or two years while Billy Hamilton is being groomed into our leadoff-hitting CF.  I think that Didi Gregorius will be a really good bench bat/utility guy (who might one day eclipse Cozart), and should allow for Todd Frazier to spell Ludwick (who will get resigned) one or two games a week in Left Field.  

It will be interesting to see where we go with pitching.  Gotta think that Chappy is going to start next year (as his salary dictates), leaving Broxton for the closer's role (solid, but he's a downgrade).  This will probably move Mike Leake to long relief with LeCure and Simon, while Arredondo gets the boot, I think.

BTALBERT: thanks man, I needed that.

One more thing I'll say about Dusty is, he hasn't been to the post season with the Reds with a complete team. The 2010 team was a fun bunch, but they were lucky to be there.  This year was an immensely better team, but still had holes.  The Reds defense and pitching is amazing.  They have some good bats, but they aren't a great offensive team.  Joey Votto was something like 78th in the league at getting at bats with runners in scoring position. Get him the kind of opportunities that other players had and he ends up with a 130 RBIs.  They need a lead off hitter.  Bruce is only 25 and he improves each year, if he just takes a minor step forward at hitting with runners in scoring position it really solidifies the line up.  If the team actually gets a real leadoff hitter, they can slide BP to cleanup.  That means 3 of the top 4 in their lineup are the top 3 in OBP(if they get a real leadoff hitter) Then you have Bruce and Frazier 5-6 and that's a pretty solid lineup. They are a lead off hitter and a coupole good bench players from being very good.  No more Cairo and Willie Harris, they need to get legit guys off the bench, and I think they'll do that this offseason.

I hope Dusty stays. He got this team to overacheive this year by making them play as a team.

I agree that we have to get runners across the plate more. Votto was playing hobbled half the year. He was getting hits, but with no power behind them. And they aren't pitching him anything to hit because they know they can pitch around him. If BP can slide back and join Bruce behind Votto, it'll be scary.

I think we move Hamilton up to the majors and play him at SS, rotate Fraizer and Cozart at 3B, put Chapman in the rotation (which having a lefty there will be HUGE), and re-sign Madsen as the closer (who should give us a deal since we paid him all last year --take out insurance next time Walt). Then we just need a bench and a centerfielder.

I don't think we want Hamilton playing SS.  Everything I've read says that he's a very raw prospect who gets by based on sheer athleticism alone.  I've heard he's not a good fielder (though his zone rating would be outrageous), and his arm is weak: he'll be a massive downgrade, defensively, compared to Zack Cozart or Didi Gregorius (who is actually our best defensive SS, in my opinion).  Personally, I'd like to seem him move to CF and try his hand there, even if it means that he'll never be able to throw out a guy at the plate (his zone rating will more than make up for it).  Give him a year (or at least half) in AAA polishing his craft--he's gotten a lot better at hitting, but by all accounts he doesn't even steal bases that well, he's just crazy fast (bring him up to the majors now, and you'll see him get thrown out a lot--he just doesn't read pitchers)--and he'll be a force.  Didi is more than capable of sliding into SS, while Cozart moves to third and Frazier to LF to spell Ludwick (who I'm pretty sure we'll resign) once or twice a week; Frazier's bat is simply too good to allow it to fester on the bench.  

Also, unloading Heisey and Stubbs for Denard Span allows for flexibility with Ludwick.  If he drops off in this year or the next, we'll be able to slowly bench him in favor of an outfield consisting of Span in LF, Hamilton in CF, and Bruce in RF.  Imagine a lineup of Hamilton, Span, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Ludwick, Frazier, Cozart, and Hanigan.  I'm turned on just thinking about this.

I have no problem telling you, after that loss I damn near lost it lol.  I just really loved watching this team this year.  The real pain came when my next call at work came from a customer in San Fran.  I said how are you doing today, and she said GREAT THE GIANTS JUST WON.  I said I know and I'm about to cry, the Reds are my team!!!!  I said all I ask is that you beat the Freakin Cardinals! 

You know why Hamilton is so fast right???? He was a WR recruit for Miss St. HE HAS SEC SPEED lol j/k. I think he spends the year in AAA becoming a CF. He's playing in the Arizona fall league right now and they have him listed as an OF.  Hodge you are right he is very raw, but made HUGE progress between his season in Dayton and this season in Bakersfield.  When he jumped from Bakersfield to AA Pensacola, he really didn't fall off any at all.  I think he'll spend most of the season in AAA next year and get a September call up at the end of the year.  He's still at least a year away. I think they come up with some sort of package and include Stubbs as a throw in for a trade in this offseason and go get a leadoff hitter.  I actually prefer that they keep Heisey around, he's a great 4th outfielder. 

The Hanigan letdowns are especially heartbreaking because he is usually so good. He may not be the best defensive catcher, but he is pretty darn good. And he certainly is the best hit-and-run batter on the team, with the only possible exception being Votto. While I admit I'm not sold on Dusty being a manager that can succeed in the post season, it's hard to fault him in that one instance. At least not for trusting Hanigan. 2 on, no outs is a little questionable.

I disagree strongly that Dusty got this team to overachieve this year. The organization itself billed them as a World Series team. They had one of he best (if not the best) bullpens in the league. All they had to do was have a lead after six innings and it was a virtual lock for a win. You could really see the difference in a manager like Bochy compared to Baker in this series. Bochy took Zito out in the third inning at the first sign of trouble, with the lead. Baker left Latos in in the fifth inning when he was clearly struggling, even with a better bullpen. And he should have known the Reds would be lucky to score more than 2 runs at that point as well.

Penult, that's the one criticism I have for Dusty in this series, leaving Latos in too long.  When he and the umpire had the little interaction, I told my friend HE'S DONE!!!! I've seen the same meltdowns from Latos before.  The reason the team lost though was the same thing that plagued them at times all year.  They couldn't hit with men on base.  They had like 12 or 13 hits yesterday.  Even when they made the big contract moves this year and people were saying oh man they are "all-in" this year I wasn't buying it. 

They knew they were going to have to depend on 3 Rookies to play significant time this year at key positions like Catcher and Shortstop.  They knew they still had no real lead off man to speak of, and they knew they had a bench to start the year of Willie Harris, Valdez, and Miguel Cairo.  There's no way this team was a World Series winning team.

This team overacheived, for sure. The organization is gonna say good things obviously, and even some billed them to win in a weak division. But that was all before Votto goes down for half the season, Madsen is gone for the year, and Rolen gets hurt (which really, should probably be expected). No one thought they'd win 97 games this year.

The division will be down again next year, we have good prospects, things are looking up. We no longer sell all our talent to the Yankee's like the old ownership used to do. We will be back next year.

I hear you BT and Bucksfan, and agree they do not have a championship caliber offense. I think Dusty only held them back further. He wasted too much time with Willie Harris. He stubbornly kept Stubbs at the top of the lineup all year, when it was blatantly obvious he should be at the bottom of the lineup. He refused to get Frazier and Heisey playing time. Frazier, only because he got PT due to injuries to Rolen and Votto, proved that he was one of the best batters on this team. He failed to find a place for Frazier, who can play a lot of different positions, despite very underwhelming performance from Rolen and Stubbs, just for starters. He batted Hanigan in the 8 hole all year, despite him batting ~.275+ all year AND having an OBP second only to Votto (meanwhile Votto was 78th in the league in at bats with runners on?). You guys seem to want to write of Heisey, even though he batted over .270 for the year. Heck of a lot better than Stubbs. Maybe he struggles with certain MLB pitches, but it's hard to blame him when he has such limited chances to see them. He consistently refused to give these hitters who were performing better chances to bat higher in the lineup when players were out with injuries, instead opting to plug guys like Valdez in the top of the order. If you look at run production most of it came from the bottom of the order, especially when Votto was out. Mainly brava use the 6,7, and 8 holes had some of the best batters and on base guys in Frazier and Hanigan. 

One of Dusty's biggest failures was not getting the most possible out of the hitters the team does have. And a large part of that was how he managed all year long. No way is this loss all on the players, and I think even Dusty would admit that.

Penult, numbers don't lie.  This team was 21st in MLB in runs, 17th in BA.  In a hitter's park!  That's not Dusty's fault because of how he set his lineups.  In 2011, they didn't even sniff the post-season and they finished 7th in runs scored, but 13th in BA.  Was Dusty some sort of lineup mastermind last year but not this year?  C'mon.  It was a product of less-than-stellar play.  He shuffles the lineups all year.  Over 6 months, if you won 97 games, you had to have done something RIGHT, not wrong.  Frazier wouldn't have made much difference at this stage in his career (rookie!).  If he had benched Rolen in favor of Frazier, for instance, everyone would be on Dusty for neglecting his experienced veteran.

You can criticize all you want, but honestly it really wasn't like there was anyone Dusty could plug in to make up for a lack of a lead-off hitter, or to prevent Jay Bruce from slumping.  They just didn't have all the things go the way they needed.

It can be a damn good team.  Only 1 of the remaining 6 teams are going to have it work out in their favor...which means 5 of them are going to be right where the Reds fans are...questioning what could have been done differently and feeling miserable.  Well, count me in for being optimistic.

And I don't have a problem with starting Rolen at third in the playoffs, to be clear.

Bucksfan, as Hodge astutely points out, good managers pitched around Hanigan all year because he was in the 8 hole, that's just one example of how this team's production was possibly limited all year. So you citing stats for the year that are also inherently a product of Dusty's management to claim how limited they were offensively is an ipso facto fallacy. I believe you are also falling into the trap that Paul Depodesta claims we are all prone to: using results rather than process to justify decisions. For example, a guy does an unsafe work practice his first day, but the result is nothing happens so he concludes it's safe. So he does it the second day, same result, he's certain it's safe now. He does it each day for 20 years until he gets hurt. The process, a safety assessment, standards an regulations etc. indicate it was unsafe. But the employee got a false negative result and assumed it meant it was safe. The same thing can happen when you assume a win result indicates it was because of a manager's decision.

The lineup, meh, he could of shuffled it and it may have made a small difference but at the end of the day you still had to have Stubbs and Hesiey somewhere, and it was going to cost either way.  It was immensely frustrating to see the bottom 3rd put men on base and the first 2 guys not be able to even make contact and allow Votto to get up with men on base.  I'm not sure, though, what they could of done.  Have stubbs and Cozart bat 7th and 8th and you likely don't have the problem because the top of the lineup won't have anyone on base when they get up. 

One thing about the lineup, though that can't be denied is for every spot down the lineup you go, you get less plate appearances.  So Stubbs and Cozart getting significantly more PA's than guys like BP or Frazier most of the year did hurt the team.  At the end of the day though, you had the same bad pieces that you would have to plug in somewhere.

An argument could be made that Stubbs batting 2nd, infront of Votto was the best place for him to hit, because he'd see a lot of hittable pitches, but at the end of the day he's just not that good. 

 Just don't understand why heisey and Frazier didnt get more playing time.. After votto got hurt Frazier played his a$$ off and is now looking at a potential rookie of the year.. Stubbs consistently struck out but yet got playing time because he was fast, well guess what, heisey is fast too and has a better bat in my opinion. I think jockety needs a 5th guy in the starting rotation and a lead off man this off season..mesaraco was a huge disappointment along with a few other bench players.. Deffinately need some fine tuning if they want to make it past the first round..bring back ludwick too...dude is clutch..

I absolutely would of played Frazier over Rolen in Game 5.  BUT, Frazier could of really forced that issue by playing hitting really well in game 4, he didn't.  Dusty does have a soft spot for a veteran leader like Rolen, and honestly he was healthy for the playoffs, he's one of the better 3rd baseman all time really, and he should have the right to go out playing I guess.  If this were Frazier of late July and August, I would absolutely agree, he needed to play, Fraizer of September/October just wasn't quite a good.

I don't have a problem with Stubbs over Heisey, that much.  I'll admit though, I just don't really care that much for Heisey as a starter.  He's always done just well enough so that we want to see him play more, but when given the opportunity to play more, he just doesn't rise up and seize the job.  He has to prove that he's so good offensively you can't afford to keep him on the bench, and honestly, he's never done that.