TSUN's QB was approved for a medical redshirt, and has two years of eligibility remaining.
A couple things:
-How dumb did he make Hoke/Borges look when he finally got his shot at QB? That team had a WR playing QB, and a QB playing WR for most of the year.
-Wonder how Shane Morris is feeling right now... guaranteed redshirt in 2013?
-Two more years of Devin v. Braxton is much better than one, imo.
1. You really can't blame the coaching staff for using Robinson. Gardner's play in 2011 didn't really say "I'm starter material".
2. Morris was going to redshirt regardless of whether or not Gardner got an extra year. He'll still have the chance to win the job as a sophomore.
3. Should be a good two years. From what I saw from Gardner last season, I think he can be really good, just will need some quality WR/TE to throw to.
So he'll finish 0-3 as a starter. Good to know.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
He might go 0-4 like Mike sHart
God I can't wait to beat them twice next year!!!
I don't think it really matters. i think he's gone to the NFL after this coming season.
it's been said before. But HOKE IS A F**KING moron. Had a poor man's Vince Young playing WR and WR(kick returner?lol) playing QB. Urban would never do that. These dumb decisions they make is why they're hopeless. Urban would never do something dumb like that.
Regardless of your thoughts on Garnder and/or Hoke...this medical hardship is ridiculous. The kid dressed to play, warmed up and was ready to back up if need be...throughout their bowl game.
But bring it on DG.
It's from his freshman year, it's not ridiculous (you apply for it later). It was a wholistic thing and makes sense.
I am aware it's from his freshman year, not sure what that has to do with anything. By "whlolistic thing" I am taking it you mean over the whole season...He played in a few games, was apparently hurt, but suited up/warmed up to play in their bowl game. He would have played if they wanted/needed him to. Not sure how that is grounds for a valid medical hardship redshirt. He was dressed to play if they needed him - ie, fit enough to play.
In my opinion, just another inconsistent NCAA rule. Once again, bring it DG, see you in Nov. The next two Novembers.
According to precedent, it was exactly how the NCAA was expected to rule. If it was an OSU player, no one would be making a sound.
It's not inconsistent at all. Let's view things logically and not through scarlet and gray colored glasses. It's the precedent that's set and it makes the rivalry better. No need to be upset.
Who is upset? I don't care that it's Mich or Iowa or Little Sisters of the Poor...which is why I started the post with "regardless of your thoughts on Gardner/Hoke"...my point is that I find it BS that you can play in a couple of games and dress to play in your bowl game (even though you didn't happen to get put in, still in uniform ready to go) and be granted a MEDICAL hardship. I don't care if it's DG or Forrest Gump. I still think the NCAA is all over the map on many of their rulings...thus the point of my comment. That's a fairly logical view. If it were a Buckeye, I would obviously be glad but still make the same comment that it's ridiculous you can get a MEDICAL redshirt while warming up and dressing to play.
I actually rather like DG for an TSUN player. Not much negative you can say about a guy who will do whatever his team needs (other than his school choice). He's a 5* guy willing to switch positions and then move back. Read down a handful of comments and see my post from earlier in the day praising Gardner.
Just like you previous comment about it being His freshman year, the fact that it makes the rivalry better is irrelevant.
I see it as pretty inconsequential, aside from the fact that it means that Shane Morris will likely have to wait until he's a RS Soph to get a start. Not as good a runner as DRob (has solid top-speed, but looks VERY stiff when has to run from the QB position -- averaged -4yds/rush against OSU, 2yds/rush against SCar if that tells you anything), not as good a passer as your traditional Michigan QBs. I see him as a decent QB, but not a difference maker.
Devin Gardner against MSU -- pretty spry when he's running backwards actually!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnAhzyb3t2Y
his legs make him a difference maker. Give him 1 and 2 more years and he could be scary.
Not here to troll...Go Blue
With all due respect my good man, he had a 2.1 yards per rush average over the last two years. He's only had one start in three years (albeit limited playing time obviously) where he ran for more than 40 yards. His career rushing average is around 2.5 yds/rush. Compare that to Braxton Miller (around 5 yds/rush), Vince Young (around 6.5 yds/rush), Terrell Pryor (around 5 yds/rush), even Andrew Luck (average around 5.5 per rush), and you're not even in the same area code. For a dual-threat QB, 2.5 yds/rush is pretty weak.
I really don't see what Michigan fans are seeing so far as his running ability. He has solid straight-line speed, but he looked incredibly stiff running against teams with actual defenses like OSU and SCar. Very little if any cutback ability. His arm is very average (I just watched the OSU and SCar games again last week, and he has a very good deep ball, but his short and intermediate stuff is regularly inaccurate). Braxton Miller has some of the same issues, but his running ability is on another planet completely. I saw someone on a Michigan forum who predicted the next two years with Devin Gardner were going to be reminiscent of the Vince Young era in Texas, I had a good chuckle at that one. 6.5 yds/rush is ungodly, 2.5 yds/rush is closer to Tajh Boyd territory. I love Tajh Boyd though, and I could see Gardner developing into a Tajh Boyd type -- but he definitely has to work on his arm to get there.
In 2006, Troy Smith won the Heisman. Despite his reputation as a dual threat QB, he averaged 2.8 yards per rush that season. When an offense is not designed to turn a QB into a running threat, such as a Tressel or Hoke offense, I don't think "yards per rush" is an important stat to cite. A dual threat in such an offense is an athletic guy who can pick up crucial yards on third downs and keep plays alive with his legs.
All Blueinsconsin said was that his legs are a difference maker. Gardner is very athletic and is much better than Denard at scrambling and keeping plays alive. He is more instinctive. I still remember Troy Smith's "Heisman Moment." It wasn't some long galloping run...it was a twisting, turning scramble before he delivered a deep ball.
I think your Tajh Boyd analogy is excellent. It will be very interesting to see how Gardner develops as a passer, but I highly doubt that he finishes 2013 with 3,900 yards and the #4 QB rating in the nation.
Fair points TT.
Troy Smith was a TREMENDOUS passer in the 2006 season, though. He could make any throw you needed. Devin Gardner has a long, long way to go IMO before he's in the same league. Gardner threw a solid deep-ball last year, but often times he just floated it up there and hoped for good things to happen. His short and intermediate passing was decent, but frequently inaccurate. He has a lot of the same things to work on that Braxton Miller does, but he's nowhere near the runner.
I disagree with you somewhat on the idea that Devin Gardner is more elusive/a better scrambler than DRob. I've seen almost every Gardner game, and I'm not overly impressed with his ability to avoid the pass rush. He has very good straight-line speed (thus his time at WR), but he looked incredibly stiff/statuesque in the pocket against solid defenses like OSU and SCar. His -4 yds/rush average against OSU is a good testament to his inability to dodge the pass rush consistently. I think he'll continue to improve, and may become a good QB before it's all said and done, but the Vince Young comparisons I saw on Michigan boards today is what kind of struck me. I don't know anyone with eyes that could compare him to Vince Young lol. Tajh Boyd is a solid comparison though for where I could see him going potentially (which isn't bad at all).
Even though YPC don't reflect this, Gardner was a much more effective scrambler than D-Rob last year. If you watched the two of them play, D-Rob had his mind made up to throw or pass before the ball was snapped. His YPC were high because he was executing designed runs. There were numerous times in passing situations, however, where the field was wide open for him to take off and all his WRs were covered. Instead of bailing out of the pocket with his feet, it was almost as if he was trying to prove he could stick with the play as a passer, and the next thing you knew he was throwing a late pass that was incomplete or intercepted. I attributed this to D-Rob never being fully comfortable in Borges's offense, kind of like how Pryor looked a lot during his first 2 years at OSU.
Gardner, on the other hand, had a much better pocket presence and natural sense of when to take off with his legs than D-Rob. Much fewer designed runs and more sacks taken limited his YPC. But I can't tell you how many times I saw him take off when the throw wasn't there on a 3rd down and 4-7 yards to go scenario, and instinctively run just enough to get the first down. He wasn't looking to break a 50 yarder like Miller or D-Rob, he was just looking to move the chains and keep a drive going. That is the very essence of scrambling, and Gardner was very good at it. Couple this with the fact that he throws a nice ball and does a really good job of feeling the rush while in the pocket, and it's not hard to understand why Michigan fans are excited to see what he can become as the full time starter over the next 2 seasons.
I know you guys think the world of Miller, but Gardner is nothing to sleep on. That's not some true freshman Michigan will be trotting out there. And he doesn't have to outplay Miller in order for Michigan to win. The two teams are close enough that Gardner just needs to make the type of plays he did against Northwestern and South Carolina. If Michigan's defense continues to improve, that could be the deciding factor.
60% of the time it works.....every time
Hello_Heisman: I was quite impressed with Garder's arm in 2012, but I think you give him too much credit for his pocket awareness at this stage in his career (of course, he has every opportunity to improve going forward).
Did you consider it "the very essence of scrambling" when Gardner gave up -11 yd, -9 yd, and -8 yd sacks to Ohio State (and 4 total sacks) and -7 and -12 yd sacks (3 total) to South Carolina?
No question, Gardner is not a statue back there (he played WR, so he's obviously "athletic") and we might expect inexperienced QBs to give up a relatively high number of long-yardage sacks (as a frosh, Braxton sure did). But, from what we've actually seen of Gardner playing QB in 2012, there's really nothing indicating that he's any better with his legs - scrambling, keeping on option plays, etc. - than some other QBs who've been identified (stereotyped?) as traditional "pocket passers" a la Zac Dysert, Derek Carr, Gino Smith, etc. Keep in mind that we expect pocket passers to occasionally scramble on 3rd and 3 and pick up 4 yds for the first down - that's one way they're effective. Heck, Dan Marino used to do that in college.
Btw, I'd not seen you around here before this Gardner topic came up and I'm guessing that you're a Michigan fan. Therefore, are we to assume that your log-in name is suggesting that we should expect the Downtown Athletic Club to be saying "hello" to Gardner within the next two years?
Run_Fido,
You're correct that I'm a Michigan fan - if you look elsewhere in this thread you'll see my first post talking about my being a newbie to this site. Basically, there were a couple OSU posters on MGoBlog who recommended I give 11W more of a try. I've been reading the posts here for a few months but didn't get around to signing up for an account until yesterday. I figured I could contribute more to the Gardner discussion than most of the other topics floating around given that it's Michigan-specific.
As much as I like Gardner, I do not expect to ever see him holding the Heisman hardware. Hello Heisman is my user name on MGoBlog and it's in reference to the Desmond Howard punt return/pose from '91 - just figured it would be more transparent if I used the same name on both sites.
60% of the time it works.....every time
I have great respect for the MI fans on this site, as they are typically reasonable and respectful (as was your post). But I just had to downvote for the D Howard reference, one of the more arrogant exhibitions in college football imo.
I find comparing Gardner to XBrax a bit ludicrous, on any level. It seems to me most of Gardner's success hinges on the players around him rather than what he does himself. Miller has won games by himself essentially. His surrounding cast improves even an ounce in 2013 neither TTUN nor anyone else will be able to contain him, improved D or not.
"Sherman ran an option play right through the south" - Greatest.Civil.War.Analogy.Ever
He doesn't have designed runs like Denard or Braxton. His legs are dangerous b/c he can avoid the rush and keep the play going while his receivers get open. And yes, he needs work on his arm, like many college QBs do, but two more years of college ball will only help that. It's not like he'll be sitting still in his progression as a throwing QB.
Not here to troll...Go Blue
This doesn't bother me at all... Look at the teams he had success against... He isn't going to beat us... I'm not worried about him or Morris.
I'm sure he is real excited about having to come back to the Shoe in two years..
So two strikes against me right off the bat. First, I'm a long time fan of OSU's fiercest rival. Second, this is my first post on this site (I promised a couple of the OSU fans who frequent MGoBlog that I would give 11W a legitimate shot).
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I think as much as Michigan fans may be overrating Gardner, a number of you guys are equally underestimating his impact. No, he can't run the way Miller does and no, he is not the next Vince Young. But as a college QB, he has a pretty high ceiling because he has a great mix of arm strength and athleticism. He's been in the program for awhile and will now have 2 more years to develop as a full fledged starter. Considering he was a 5 star recruit out of high school and considering how quickly he was able to effectively step into the QB position in the middle of last season, you have to figure there's good upside there. If you want an analogy, look no further than Braxton Miller. Dude was raw and talented his freshman year, but had plenty of moments where he looked awful. How much better did that kid look his sophomore year once he got some game experience and a full off season to work in Meyer's system?
Gardner is in a similar position and should be able to really improve his game over the next year or two. As a Michigan fan, this is almost as critical as Lewan coming back next year, not just because of the talent of the player, but because of the ability to avoid throwing a completely inexperienced player like Morris on to the field before he's ready. Most Michigan fans will tell you that Gardner is a better QB for Borges's system than Robinson was. And even with Robinson at the helm, Michigan won The Game in 2011. With Gardner starting only his 4th game at QB, Michigan was up at halftime before losing by 5 in 2012 at The Horseshoe. I know you guys think OSU will be much improved in Year 2 under Meyer, but so will Gardner and crew in Year 3 under Hoke. Underestimate your rival at your own risk. If the last 2 years have taught us anything, it's that The Game is going to be closely contested in the foreseeable future, so don't assume Gardner's redshirt won't come back to haunt OSU.
60% of the time it works.....every time
I agree with you all the way, man. I don't exactly tout Gardner as any Heisman candidate or anything, but to the guys that are saying he's an ATH rather than a QB, but that logic, there aren't a ton of QBs in the NCAA.
I think he's not an overly fluid athlete, and it's mainly because of his size. Guys of that stature won't always be Terrelle Pryor. He's got a strong arm, but needs to work on his composure and fundamentals at times. It seems like he gets pressured and tosses it into traffic at times, which he just can't do. That said, he makes great throws from time to time, and I can sympathize that he doesn't have the receivers to work with yet. I think he'll be in that upper echelon of QBs his senior year, but now that he and Braxton will be on a level field in that regard, I don't think Gardner will touch Miller.
Coming into this year's game, Gardner scared me. He's really, really good as a QB. A lot better than Denard was. I don't think that UM has the weapons to REALLY give OSU trouble in the next few years, but Gardner seems like he'll be one of those QB's who makes those around him a lot better.
EDIT: Also, welcome to the site. 11W is really, really great. But just a word of warning, as a fan of the enemy, you'll probably face a few haters along the way. Most of us are glad that you're here, but as always, there are a few bad apples. But for the vast majority, we love civilized discourse and a bit of good-natured banter.
I wouldn't cheer for Michigan if they were playing the Taliban.
If there weren't some Michigan haters on an OSU board I would be a bit worried haha.
Thanks THEBADOWL - reading posts from the Michigan side of the house can get boring after awhile. Good to hang with the enemy a little and get some equally biased views from OSU's perspective.
I generally agree with your post above. I'm not sure exactly how good Gardner will be, but he's a talented kid with some meaningful experience and a good head on his shoulders. I'll take my chances with a guy like that as QB for the next 2 years. I think part of the reason why OSU fans may be dismissing him is because he got hurt in The Game and was unable to demonstrate his mobility in the pocket. Once he lost that aspect of his game, he wasn't yet accurate enough as a passer to do serious damage. I think a more meaningful indicator is how he played vs South Carolina. SEC defense with a strong D-Line and pass rush, but he was healthy and had a few weeks to get some real reps at the QB position going into that game. While he was far from perfect, he made big plays when it mattered and didn't lose his composure in a game where it looked like SC might blow Michigan out of the stadium early on.
To Michigan fans, this was a very encouraging sign, and something that he and the offense should really be able to build on for 2013. Bottom line is that he has a lot of upside, and I like Michigan's chances over the next 2 years vs OSU a lot more with him than without him.
60% of the time it works.....every time
Gardner can and most likely will be good. He has game experience. Hostile environment experience. Regardless of it was at WR or QB...he has his sea legs. I actually think it will help him having played WR, in that he will have a better understanding of his WR's routes in the very system they are running. QB is the most important position in football and it will help the Skunk Bears to have some consistency there. They've come a long way since little Tater Tot QB Forcier. DG is no worse than a top 3 QB in the B1G.
Welcome back DG and I look forward to laying it to you for the next 2 years.
I agree with you that Gardner COULD develop, and he COULD be dangerous. But I question whether the UM coaching staff will make the most of his abilities.
<"Stay down Bitch!" said Zach Boren after sack #2 of Devin Gardner;-) I still watch that hit from time to time since I Tivo'd the game:-)
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
This picture was an instant classic.
Good. He throws floaters downfield boys. 3 picks for us in AA next year. You heard it here 1st.
I have no fear of an offense led by Al Borgus and Devin Gardner
Stay golden, Ponyboy.
I think you guys are underestimating him. He hasn't had much time at QB and he has all the necessary tools to become very good. I would be concerned about him next year, probably not so much this year.
but if he puts it all together, he won't be Braxton but he will be someone to be concerned with. At least, I would be more concerned about him than Denard! At least we knew Denard couldn't throw. This kid might actually figure it out soon.
^agreed squirrel master. Gardner is mobile enough to be a scrambling threat, and seems to know when to bail on a pass play and take off to try and convert the 3rd down. After they switched to more pro-style, Denard seemed to be really hesitant to run unless it was designed. Gardner is much more intuitive, but not as dangerous. I don't think he'll be anything remarkable this coming year, but he could be a top 3 B1G QB in 2014 if he stays. They'll have some serious OL depth, Green should be entrenched as a solid starter, and they'll likely have a few TE/WR weapons to throw to. I see that year as being the highest potential their offense can reach with these recruits
I think the potential for the 2013 Michigan offense is a little like the 2005 OSU team. Remember how in Troy Smith's junior year, the offense was pretty inconsistent and didn't really put it all together until late in the season? That's what could happen in 2013 with Gardner and company. Some ugly performances early on, but significant improvement in the 2nd half of the season so that they're peaking in time for a certain late November matchup in AA. If that happens, then you get a nice springboard effect into 2014, again like what happened to OSU heading into 2006. Not saying this is what WILL happen, but with the talent and coaching Michigan has in place it's a reasonable goal.
60% of the time it works.....every time
I'm pretty sure they have a lot more depth at Oline this year than last. I heard that only 7 scholarship players saw the field at Oline
Yeah, last year's O-Line was a bit of a shit show for Michigan. This is the first time I can remember losing 3 linemen to graduation and not being the least bit concerned about the O-Line taking a step back in performance the following season. Would have been a different story if Lewan had gone pro, obviously.
60% of the time it works.....every time
For sure but the 3 seniors they lost were also the three weakest. I would venture to guess that the RS Freshman couldn't be much worse
As much as I dislike him, we knew Denard couldn't throw, and still couldn't stop him the last 2 years. He even hurt us this year when he couldn't get his arm above his shoulder. Gardner is pocket 1st, and we always fare well against QBs like that. He floats the ball downfield. Watch the film against us. Sure he has potential, but the hype rivaling him to Brax and the Troy Smith comparisons are a bit much to swallow.
Denard beat up on a horrible OSU team 2 years ago, last year he didn't do anything to make me nervous. I knew he was damaged goods and truthfully, UM would have lost much worst if he was starting at QB. Brokedown arm or not!
After doing some research...these two above may be onto something with DG's stats as a QB from last year. Not what I'd call great...but not bad for an off and on player at QB. So if he can be consistent and get more starts... then he could be dangerous. However...I don't think he'll be as big of a threat running as many are alluding to. He's not that fast and if you look at his rushing yardage...it doesn't exactly scream look out for him as a runner.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
I think he took an awful lot of sacks last year too so that could skew his rushing yards
i think he's most dangerous as a runner on 3rd and middle distances, where he'll often be able to scramble for the first down. also, they really like to run the goal line bootleg with devin. i think he scored a couple rushing TD's on that exact play. line up in an I with lots of big bodies on the line, and let him try to beat a LB to the pylon. he's big enough and just elusive enough to give DB's trouble in a 1 on 1 situation there. but other than that, not much designed running with him. not sure I saw any read option either. he's fast enough for them to not want to completely abandon those elements
Al Borges said recently that they had no plans to abandon the read option. It just won't be used 50% of the time.
As mentioned, Gardner is better at making something out of broken plays than as a designed run. He kept several drives alive with his legs. In The Game, he missed an opportunity to run down sideline on a 2nd and 20 and chose to pass incomplete. Still, he is no slouch. He was the #1 dual threat qb in his class. He had 7 rushing tds in his 4 regular season games.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Adolphus Washington and Noah Spence have dinner reservations 8 yards behind Meatchicken's line of scrimmage. Rack of Devin... tastes like chicken
~Naples Buckeye - "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton, Jr.
You never know, they might miss their reservation the way Clowney did in the Outback Bowl. He had to settle for a smaller appetizer - Vincent Smith's head.
60% of the time it works.....every time
Many of Devin's deep completions were ducks that Gallon or other receivers went up and won the battle. Devin will certainly get comfortable in the pocket with more reps and should improve his accuracy with his receivers. I can't see all the hype (yet!) minus the fact that Denard was horrible at throwing and Devin is much better than Denard. Devin was mobile, but not nearly a weapon like Denard or Braxton. He used his size well on his runs.
What I like best about him isn't his deep ball. It's his mechanics on the shorter throws and good pocket awareness. He just needs to get better at reading his progressions, which I think he'll be able to do with a full off season of starter's reps.
60% of the time it works.....every time
His strike to Roundtree in the 1st qtr was excellent (still slightly annoyed on the safety coverage..), but he's very inconsistent. He threw a pick at the end of the game on a similar route... He may become more consistent on these throws and that will certainly increase the offense up north..
I think that's a reading the defense issue rather than a throwing mechanics issue. If you watch his positioning and footwork on a short-mid range passing pattern, he looks a lot more natural stepping into the throw and delivering the ball than Denard. If he gets better at reading defenses, the mechanics will already be in place, and he should be able to put up some big numbers.
60% of the time it works.....every time
and until mich has a proven backup, they'd be well served to keep him from running too much. He takes more shots than denard, and one to his shoulder could ruin their season...
As was stated in the thread back in November, the "medical hardship" only applies if the injury is season-ending and the player didn't play in X percent of games (it's been reported as 15 or 20 percent, I don't know what it is now). Gardner dressed at PSU and was "ready" according to Rich Rod in their last games of the season.
It's all irrelevant. Send an appeal to the NCAA if you are that concerned.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
They're too busy "investigating" Da U to care.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
You make a good point, I'm not sure why you're being DV'd. If anyone was really that concerned about how they ruled, the NCAA address listed on their website is:
The National Collegiate Athletic Association
700 W. Washington Street
P.O. Box 6222
Indianapolis, Indiana 46206-6222
Phone: 317/917-6222
Fax: 317/917-6888
Al Borges is the next Jim Bollman ... he just has to find his inner "Dave". Once he does, enjoy it UM fans.
JT
Well, I read the article and all of the posts, yet I still can't get excited about an average QB getting an extra year. Yaaaaawwn...z..zz..
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
It's a win for the good guys! Give him 2 more while their at it.
~Naples Buckeye - "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton, Jr.
Thats just another loss vs us for resume
If UM had a strong QB to play in front of him, I think I would be more worried about Gardner's extra year of eligibility. I have talked to multiple Michigan fans about this kid and have seen him when they string him out wide and he is a game-changer at the WR position. I for one am glad they are bringing him back under center.
Roll with it.
16 Rec for 244 yards and 4 TDs in 8 games as a receiver
vs 60% completion, 1219 yards, 11 Pass TDs and 7 Rushing TDs in 5 games as a QB.
I know you have to consider who was throwing him the ball, and I realize you're talking about his ability with a good passer throwing him the ball. However, in Devin's mind he is a QB. Every interview he did last year, he said he was happy to play WR, but he was still a QB.
Not counting the bowl game, he was on pace for about 3,100 yards, 24 TDs and 21 Rushing TDs. I can't speak for your friends, but I'm perfectly fine having Devin under center.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler