PHONE'S RINGING -- IT'S URBAN ON THE LINE
Who wants a good laugh? This article is a gem on a couple levels.
Bleacher report is a joke...hence this article.
Agreed and I haven't read the article, yet. I would expect the converse article about the OSU advantages over Michigan to come out this afternoon.
Edit: Well, it wasn't too bad. The cornerback advantage is way off-based. I love Countess, but he's recovering from a major injury. Roby is All-B1G or All-American talent. Both groups have pretty highly touted guys coming in, but even there OSU's recruits, in whole, are probably the better group. Gibbons has turned out to be a great kicker, but I wouldn't say that he's an advantage over Basil.
I agree that Michigan's LB core that has seen the field is the better group. Shazier and Ryan are both great and essentially a wash. Bolden and Ross look to be special players and Desmond Morgan has steadily improved. Both OSU and UofM have a good core coming in, but I think Michigan gets the advantage here, deservedly.
Tight Ends isn't that clear of an advantage, but I do like Michigan here with Funchess. He played a big role early in the season and tailed off, so he'll have to be more consistent. Williams is your prototypical blocker. Butt and Baugh both coming in this year probably won't be difference makers immediately.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
I agree with you except for Ryan and Shazier being a wash. Shazier is likely one of the top few LBs in the country in this next year and is likely to be an AA and one of the leaders for BIG DPOY. Ryan is a good college LB, but he's not on Shazier's level. But as for the rest of the LB group obviously we have no one who is proven.
I don't disagree with your feelings on Shazier, but you are selling Jake Ryan short if you think he's just a good college LB and not on Shazier's level. He has just as good of a shot to be an AA or POY as Shazier.
Jake Ryan had 56 Tackles, 4.5 Sacks, 16 TFL, and 4 FF
Ryan Shazier had 70 Tackles, 5 Sacks, 17 TFL, 3 FF, and 1 Int
Both are impact players. Shazier is a MLB and therefore will always have better total tackle numbers, while Ryan plays on the outside, often at the LOS.
Shazier plays weakside LB, not MLB.
There is a significant gap in athleticism between the two. I'm not discounting that the statistics are comparable, but Shazier's ceiling is much much higher.
Two things are wrong with your statement. Shazier is an outside LB, just like Ryan, and I have Shazier leading in tackles 114 to 88. Plus you guys played one more game, so if you look at tackles per game Shazier had a 9.5 to 6.77 advantage. And although they were even in sacks, Shazier clearly dropped back into coverage more as he had 10 pass breakups to Ryan's 3. Overall though I agree with most of the things you've said on this thread.
Should get at least 5 upvotes for accuracy if not a spot on assessment JHesse17.
I didn't include assists, so that's where you're getting the higher numbers. Clearly I don't know everything about Shazier. Dropping back and pass breakups could be an effect of many factors including scheme, opponents played, etc. Just like with Teo having 7 INTs. It's not a telling aspect of his game as a whole.
I won't back off my stance though. Ryan and Shazier are very close. And who ever mentioned above their ceilings, I think the sky is the limit with Ryan. If there is someone out there that watched every play that Ryan and Shazier was involved in it would help. I certainly didn't pay attention to Shazier on every OSU snap I saw. Anyway, this will probably end up just boiling down to the team we root for.
Again, I think Shazier has the potential to be all-everything, and he is a stud. I just feel Ryan has the same potential. To each his own.
I think you misunderstood my point with the pass breakups. I wasn't saying that the pass breakups mean Shazier is a better player, I mean that the fact that he has more breakups mean that he dropped back into coverage more, making his sacks more impressive. But Shazier and Ryan are both fantastic players, and as you said, to each his own.
The biggest problem I see with this entire argument is that we are trying to compare a SLB and a WLB. Their role and responsibilities are different. If we were only to compare athleticism, I would hope the WLB (Shazier) would win because you want him to be the most athletic linebacker on your defense. They both are asked to do different things and both do them well.
Typically a SLB lines up over a TE and is expected to take on blockers and hold contain on running plays. You may also see a SLB put his hand on the ground and line up on the line of scrimmage like a DE at times (as Michigan did with Ryan).
As for a WLB, he typically isn't asked to take on blocks from offensive linemen or tight ends and in most defensive schemes, there is an attempt to have other players (DL and other LB's) eat blocks to keep him free to make plays (free hitter concept, which I don't know if OSU uses, but I would hope they do to some level to keep a player of Shazier's caliber clean to make plays)
So given their different roles, I think it can be said that both of them have high ceilings for what they are asked to do. I guess the real question one might ask is which one would you trust more to play the other's position?
I think that asking whom you'd trust to play the other's position doesn't really work, either; for the reasons you so eloquently articulated above. Personally, I'd compare them to the status quo of their positions, and see by how much each player exceeds said measure. I don't have the answer, does anyone else? How does Shazier compare to the best WLBs, and Ryan to the best SLBs?
Good call Hodge. It was an attempt at a more reasonable argument, but would still be forced and highly flawed. Thanks for being the voice of reason as usual and I hope someone might be able to answer your question as I would be interested in knowing as well.
Does Ryan get credit for a tackle, when he kicked Braxton in the leg, while chasing him?
And i didn't down-vote.
I just didnt see many great plays from Ryan, from the few games I watched. But, then again T'eo finished 2nd in the Heisman, so....
This is why this article is dumb...not because of the comparisons he makes..but because he conveniently left out everything else..special teams, QB, RB, WR, OL, DL...etc.
You can't say a football team has an overall advantage without including every aspect of the team. This is such an offseason article..can't even believe I read it...god I'm bored haha.
If you can only come up with 4, it is a sign that you likely don't have an advantage in a general sense, especially given that he reached for a minimum of 2 of those 4 (CBs and TEs imo).
Not sure what about Joe Bolden and James Ross III (both 4 stars who played minimally last year) makes them any more special than Cam Williams, Joshua Perry and David Perkins (also 4 stars who got some but very little playing time last year), or makes Desmond Morgan (3 star with average statistics) better or more deserving of the benefit of the doubt than Curtis Grant (5 star who hasn't lived up to his potential yet, but has an unlimited ceiling).
I also think you'll struggle finding anyone in the country outside of a Michigan fan who feels Ben Gedeon and Mike McCray are on the same level as Trey Johnson and Mike Mitchell as far as incoming LB classes go.
The last comparison being Ryan Shazier and Jake Ryan. Both are very solid LBs, but you have to give Shazier the edge based on stats (+27 tackles, +.5 sacks, +1 int, +1 def TD, etc), pass defense, and pure athleticism. I've seen Ryan play both at UM and in HS, and while he's a very solid LB, he's nowhere near the athlete or impact player that Shazier is on a given day imo. That's also considering Shazier was playing next to a converted FB for most of the season (who did a pretty darn good job despite that challenge).
Don't sell Zach Boren short. Shazier's play and stats improved with Boren playing the middle. Boren must have been doing something right.
typical bleacher report crap, only about 1 out of every 20 pieces posted is even slightly insightful and well written. The only one of these things that may have SOME validity is the point about the kicker. However, and we talk about this half-jokingly, we may very well not have to worry about FG kicker situation next year, or punter. Also, its funny a Meatchicken article mention kickers when our very serviceable kicker was a very huge part of the win against them.
The kicker part of the article made me laugh. He says Basil only made 2 FGs longer than 40 yards during the season. Yet those 2 FGs were made against... Michigan!
Not to mention that Gibbons' profile lists a career long of 52 yards and one of Basil's FGs against Michigan was...52 yards!
Oh yeah they got us beat there. pfffft.
Their logic is TSUN kicks field goals more often therefore they have a better kicker logic. Ohio State just scores more TDs...
M*chigan columnist on BR mention Ohio State just to double their views.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Haven't read the article and I won't bc it's bleacher report. However...I don't think that TTUN and OSU will be that evenly matched what so ever. They're not as good offensively...not even close IMHO. The defense is another story...but, OSU should have all that figured out by the time we play each other (especially when they bring in Heacock to help out...love the idea btw and it's needed).
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
If Heacock is going to put his hands really onto this defense then OSU has a problem bigger than this hire would indicate. I'm not sure what capacity he'll be working in, but the defense got so much better as the year went on to the point that when Michigan week came around, they were one of the hottest units in the country-I believe the top defense in November, no?
My point is, Heacock's hire in whatever capacity he is in shouldn't matter as Withers\Fick and Co. had the unit firing on all cylinders.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
True, but to play devil's advocate for sec...it took nearly all season for Fick/Whithers to get the D where it was. This was due to injuries, some young players etc. We will have lumps next year since we lost 7 starters (plus some unquestionable emotional leaders). It's certainly reasonable to think that Heacock could help with minimizing the time required for the D to jel, or at least assist in dialing up the best possible schemes each week, depending on who we play. Heacock dialed up some monster Defensive games in his time(Oregon in the Rose Bowl comes to mind).
Oh certainly. I mean, more eyes the better, especially from a guy who knows his stuff like Heacock does. This is definitely in the 'can't hurt, might help' line of thinking. It won't be the reason Ohio State is a great team and contends for a national title.
I do worry about the out cry from fans who have a soft spot in their hearts for Heacock if the defense doesn't come out guns a blazing next season. How many "Heacock needs to be running this defense" comments will we have to sift through is this year starts like last year.
Agreed. Good choices of words - can't hurt, might/should help.
Also a good point - there will certainly be many misconceptions/assumptions as to Heacock's roles and exactly how much he touches play calling, or direct player coaching etc. versus what exactly Fickell and Whithers are doing. I worry about that also - both ways. Hopefully the D just matures real quick and we don't have to worry about Fickell or Heacock getting crucified.
For those who don't speak Michigan, allow me to translate the article: the phrases "rising star" and "inexperienced and unproven" are essentially synonymous. However, one is to be applied only to Michigan players whereas the other is used exclusively for OSU players.
I will give Mich a nod at LB and K at the very least. Corner I disagree a little bit, but if they're basing it on a group then whatever although Roby is the far and away the best of the starters for either team. TE I just flat out disagree; TEs are used so differently be every team in the NCAA. You can't tell me when OSU was power running that our TEs weren't effective at what they were needed to do, but they sure as heck didn't catch a lot of ball
OSU has a clear advantage at RB and QB, which are 2 positions that are much more important than those listed. And as far as coaching, based on this article, OSU has that as well, since we are counting experience
so then according to this writer, our QB, RB, WR, OL, DL, S are all better and yet this writer still feels confident they can beat us...hmm, ok.
I'm not seeing the kicker or DB advantage. TE, Funchess can definitely be qualified as an advantage on how he performed last year since Stoneburner is gone. LB's, we struggled and had to put in a Boren.
This list is based solely on last year's performance, so the analysis is valid so long as you look only through the holes of the box...
Having said that, that's not that much of an advantage for Michigan. I'd be interested in seeing how they rate OSU's advantages...
I think that columnist inadvertantly made a compelling argument for why Ohio State is significantly better than Michigan. If you're trying to identify four advantages and two of them are kicker and tight end, there isn't a word or phrase capable of adequately articulating the level of straw grasping going on.
And then when a third so-called advantage is cornerback and you just discount Doran Grant then man, just call the game now.
Like others have said, I'll give them linebacker. But they had the advantage at that position last year as well when we were a mess that had to plug a fullback in at middle linebacker. It didn't work out so well for them last year.
Wow, just completely all over scUM's balls, and kept adding in very strong points about the lack of talent tOSU has with 'if's and hypothetical situations, not much ACTUAL reporting.
This gem got me wide-eyed and dropped my jaw. Unbelievable:
but regardless, Vannett and Heuerman are nothing special.
but regardless, Vannett and Heuerman are nothing special.
"Nothing special" = "I don't know much about them and they don't play for Michigan."
Jeff Heuerman had a special catch in that Purdue game.
Nick Vannett split time with two others as a freshman in a TE position not yet entirely fleshed out in this offense. He still managed to nab nine catches for 123 yards. I'd say given the chance he'd be effective enough.
"Success - it's what you do with what you got" - Woody Hayes
I really think if Braxton has improved as much as we are all hoping one or both of these guys could blow up. They both have shown good hands and should see those seam routes and dump downs to the hash pretty consistently. I am very excited to watch our tight ends work in this offense next year.
Roll with it.
I found the bleachers that this report was written from. I'm feeling underwhelmed. I really expected something bigger and better.
That is SssssWEEET! I hate BleacherReport. They're the National Enquirer of sports news. No slander to the National Enquirer intended.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
I can get behind this statement. A lot of their articles are contrived and it is obvious that the stories are assignments that the writers don't always believe.
And what I used to find frustrating (I no longer browse the site) was that (1) their facts were usually wrong, (2) they love lists that are just someone's subjective opinion, and (3) it was a waste of time.
I agree that the only unit Michigan appears to have an advantage over Ohio State - on paper - is LB.
However, Michigan's LBs will not be squaring off against Ohio State's LBs in the trenches. Michigan's LBs will be trying to shed Ohio State's OLmen, H-back (Y?)/TEs, El Guapo, insiders receivers chipping down against them, etc. If they can shed those blockers, they'll have to tackle, in space, the likes of XBrax360, one of the stable of RBs, one of the dangerous slot receivers (A?), etc.
In other words, I like the odds of Ohio State's developing LB corps to be able to handle Michigan's OL and inside runners much better than I like the odds of Michigan's LB corps stopping Urbz's crew. But I guess we'll find out in November.
Great point Run. How about an article on how their D will stop Braxton, El Guapo, Brown, Smith and all that speed we have coming in. Or how their lackluster offense will fare against the D of OSU. Would be an interesting game though if BRs compared players were all on the field at the same time. Definitely an unknown who would win in that scenario.
I was actually thinking that exact same thing reading the article. It's about who's LBs have a better chance of stopping the other team's RBs. They aren't going to be tackling each other.
The Bleacher Report.
Ok, here's what take from that:
A kicker who's been able to kick more often than ours. But ours is efficient.
A TE with more experience. But more talent? Let's have a look-see at Marcus Baugh. And Heuerman and Vannett are plenty capable imho.
A proven, talented CB duo, which consists of a rising star and one returning from injury. While tOSU has a proven star in one spot and another (possibly) on the rise at the other.
The LB analysis stands, as TTUN has established experience returning. But with Shazier, and a talented group from which I expect to make big strides this year (Curtis Grant come on down), I think this comparison will be also debatable by season's end.
I vote we don't link to any more bleacher report articles so they don't get the page views eleven warriors provides.
Um... well with what was supposed to be a down year for our D and a big year for their O, they never crossed the 50 in the second half. this is when their new QB was playing like gangbusters heading in.
Our QB, offense and head coach are better... on D we did better to shut them down with a full back at linebacker, we dominated them for most of the game.
Confident that we have a clearly better O, QB and Coach...we'll see about the D's this year but I doubt anyone up north will sleep well when they think about the Buckeyes because a blogger thinks they have a better kicker, and tight-end.
You're wrong D. I've already been told by UM fans that it wasn't our Defense that kept them from crossing the 50 in the 2nd half, it was their terrible offensive play calling. Had they called better plays, they would have won.
(End sarcastic font)
Funny thing is, the large majority of OSU fans that I talk to say the same thing. Now, that's not to take anything away from OSU's defense--they were great in that game (IIRC, 4 sacks, 3 FF and recoveries and an INT). At the same time, when Denard is incapable of throwing and he is snapped the ball, it's a little bit predictable that it's going to be a run. When OSU had 8 men in the box and a Denard run is called, that is a very bad play call. Much the same, if Vincent Smith (all 5'6" 180 pounds of him) runs the ball into a 7 or 8 man front on 3rd and 2, that's not a good call. Running our "power" back, Rawls outside, repeatedly, is a bad play call.
You can call it great defense or poor play calling; it was both. Borges called a heck of a game vs SCar, though.
But you could also argue that OSU play calling at the end of drives was horrible. If OSU finishes some of those drives like they should have without all of the bonehead plays/play calling, Ohio State wins by 2 or 3 touchdowns
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
One play-call that still boggles my mind to this day was the WR screen on the 2 yard line that got Braxton destroyed. You had a steamroller in El Guapo that had more short-yardage TDs than likely any back in the B1G last year and you call a WR screen there? Seemed like they were trying to get way too cute. Lost several yards and ended up having to kick a fieldgoal iirc. Just ram it in there for crying out loud.
I don't agree that running Denard against 8 in the box was a bad play call, especially with the play-makers(see: lack of) you had to work with. What made running him a bad play call was running between the tackles and not on the edge where he could utilize his speed and things like being simultaneously tackled by two people but staying up to go 60 yards can happen IMO
Pick up your feet, turn your corners square! And DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE!!!
You could argue that tOSU lost all our games to UM in the 2000's because our offense was predictable.
EDIT: One Loss.....
I've made so many remarks on Bleacher Report that I don't want to sound like a broken record. I'll leave it you guys to tear them apart.
"if irony were made of strawberries, we' d all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."
At least in a world of constant change, it is comforting to know that some things stay the same. BR still sucks!
TTUN clearly has a weight advantage...when it comes to the coaching staffs.
Wow, Kate, you still seem to be a target. I think you need another upvote.
aha! good on ya, MN BUCKEYE!
Thanks brother...right back at ya
The Bleacher Report, what a joke!
Austin Fox is a HUGE homer writer for scUM. I'm not surprised by him writing this article. Plus, BR is a joke of a site anyway.
" ... let's beat the shit out of M*chigan." -Urban Meyer-
Gibbons is a good kicker, so is Basil. I'd label that a push, not an advantage for TSUN. Basil tried 11 FGs in 12 games that OSU won all of...what does that tell you? Basil also started off the season slow and was money by the end of it.
Tight End I'd also call a push. I think Heuermann and Vannett together can be effective. I would agree that Funchess is the best individual TE between the two teams.
Cornerback advantage TSUN? LOL, no. Advantage OSU.
Linebacker, I'd give the advantage to TSUN unless OSU can get multiple young guys to learn quickly and play well.
Class of 2010.
Bottom line Meat Chicken Still Sucks!!! Advantage Buckeyes!!!
~Naples Buckeye - "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton, Jr.
TSUN probably has a better punter (because Ohio State doesn't really have one yet.. Btw is Hangerup still around)
TSUN has better depth at offensive line, not sure about starting line - maybe 3/5 guys at TSUN have an edge over our starters.
TSUN has a better TE
TSUN vs OSU linebackers... I call a push. I do think Ohio State has more potential at LB.
Ohio State secondary is top 5 in college football especially with the depth they added with the 2013 class.
I love how Michigan's young guys in the article will only get better. However, when mentioning OSU's young guys they are inexperienced and unproven. Garbage.
To me it is clear. TSUN is a September National Champion because they clearly dominate other teams on paper! Unfortunately for them they must prove it on the field.
UM talent >>>> App State ;) on paper.
Well, at least until half that Michigan team decided it was a good idea to roll that paper before the game and smoke it. Then they forgot they were supposed to be better.
No, it wasn't like...they forgot...they were just distract...
The best part is half of his positions are very small impact when it comes to why UM would beat OSU unless he starts with the premise that both teams are equal in almost every other area... Ha! UM evidently is going to bet us with the TE getting them to the 30 yard line and going for a FG.
The second best part is the bias:
When OSU had a young guy that was supposed to be good, they were labeled "unproven" and they could falter, making them a weakness.
When UM had a young guy he thought would be good, they were a strength.
- it is clear that this guy is living in a bed of UM roses he can't see out of.
Based on everyone's assessments, we should win by 40 this year. I hope this is the case.
I would say that is a stretch, but the fact the writer focused on 2 less influential position, one questionable strength, and one real strength is just silly. If UM is going to win it is because their QB, RB, and OL march down the field and score more often than ours offense. Not their TE and FG unit.
Bam! You nailed it. End of story.
The world is full of kings & queens who'll blind your eyes & steal your dreams - it's heaven & hell - Ronnie James Dio.
Haha. That is a funny article.
I get the impression the author thinks that Mattson will shut down Meyer's offense completely being that the 2013 Game is at the Big Craphouse and THAT is where the TE's and FG kicking will come into play. They think they'll win a 9-6 game LOL. TTUN's defense did admirably in the 2012 Game but did NOT shut us down. Our own mistakes were what kept that game from turning into a blowout not their D and certainly not Mattson. We scored 26 on them anyway!!! The story fails to take into consideration that OSU will likely be MUCH better than last year. Yet TTUN's D is going to be soooooooooo good that it will completely dominate us? Ummmm, no.
"Sherman ran an option play right through the south" - Greatest.Civil.War.Analogy.Ever
This all will be irrelevant if Urban marches into AA for the first time and comes out with a big W.
Hoke would be 0-2 against Urban and Michigan fans would be in full freakout mode. Things you will hear include, but are not limited to: "Is Hoke good enough to beat Urban?" "Why is Michigan building to win B1G titles while Urban has OSU priming for national titles?" "Fire Al Borges".
Next year's game is huge in that regard and will have Michigan fans thinking "Hoke is a good coach and Michigan man, but is he good enough?" if OSU wins.
I look forward to this.
Why would anyone read anything from a writer that has the following gem in his profile:
"My favorite sport is *ichigan football, but I also like their basketball team and the Detroit Tigers."
Note: I don't normally read anything from Bleacher Report regardless of its stance on the Buckeyes. I just happened to notice the "Featured Writer" tag next to the author's name and decided to see what it takes to be a featured writer. I am still not sure but I have eliminated writing and/or proofreading from that list.
Jake Ryan was essentially a non-factor in "The Game" and that will continue to show with the return of Jack Mewhort and the new role of 5-star recruit Taylor Decker. It may be an advantage in one area, but when considering the matchups and roles of each player, Shazier has an advantage overall.
Hah. I just noticed your signature. Upvote for the laugh.
Wow, I'm the cause for Saban over signing?
VIEW ALL »
Scarlet and Gray, Every Day.
Quite simply, Eleven Warriors is the largest free Ohio State site on the internet. We're committed to remaining free and delivering you the Buckeye news and analysis you deserve.
Our Story | Meet the Staff
© 2006-2013 Eleven Warriors LLC.
Eleven Warriors is not affiliated with The Ohio State University. View full disclaimer.
The easiest way for you to contribute is to join the community. Signing up for a new account is 100% free, takes seconds and allows you to comment, participate in the forum and create your own blog posts.
If you'd like to support us with your wallet, you can: buy one of our amazing shirts or shop Amazon with this link. (Your prices remain the same and we get a commission).
We love hearing from you! Whether you want to work with us, discuss advertising opportunities, or pass us a hot tip, you're more than welcome to drop us a line.