BREAKING: 2 Ohio football players found guilty of rape in case that roiled town, stirred reaction online.
— The Associated Press (@AP) March 17, 2013
STEUBENVILLE, Ohio (AP) — Two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty Sunday of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl in a case that bitterly divided the Rust Belt city and led to accusations of a cover-up to protect the community's athletes.
Steubenville High School students Trent Mays and Ma'Lik Richmond face a possible sentence of detention in juvenile jail until they turn 21, capping a case that came to light via a barrage of morning-after text messages, social media posts and online photos and video.
Both broke down in tears after the verdict was read. As Richmond's lawyer addressed the judge, he paused for a moment to comfort his client, whose sobs could be heard throughout the courtroom.
Mays, 17, and Richmond, 16, were charged with digitally penetrating the West Virginia girl, first in the back seat of a moving car after an alcohol-fueled party on Aug. 11, and then in the basement of a house. Mays was also found guilty on a charge of illegal use of a minor in nudity-oriented material.
UPDATE: Ohio Attorney General Mike Dewine says he will convene a grand jury to determine if others should be charge in the case beyond the two boys sentenced this morning. According to the AP, "Activist groups have questioned why people who knew about the rape weren't charged under state law requiring people to report crimes." In other words, adults who knew about the situation and withheld or covered up information could be in trouble, after all.
Frankly based on the evidence reported in the articles I read, I find this unsurprising. Unfortunate for everyone involved as some really dumb decisions will be with them the rest of their lives, but not a shocking outcome based on what I read.
I share your sentiment.
I will be interested to see what their sentences are. I have been following this story for a while because I grew up not far from Steubenville. The details of their crime and the aftermath are enough to make one ill. I truly hope that justice is served here and somehow it brings that young girl some solace.
As you can see above the longest they can really be sentenced is until they are 21. I would imagine they would get that. But despite not being locked up, this will be with them the rest of their lives.
Correct - and re: the rest of their lives, just ponder the ramifications of not finishing the rest of their high school years with their peers, not going off to college... sure, they'll get an education in detention, but the course of their lives is irrevocably changed by the 4-5 years they'll be locked away. Obviously, of course, the victim's life is forever changed as well, though in a much different way.
treading lightly here but after reading everything i am sickened and the guilty verdict does not come as a shock. It would have taken a world class lawyer using some sort of courtroom magic to get anything but guilty. My question is do these two have to register as sex offenders after their time?
I am glad that a verdict has been reached, and I hope the poor girl can recover and lead a normal life. I also hope this is a cautionary tale for all athletes. This is probably a stupid question, but an honest one, so forgive me. They were found guilty of rape, but were only charged with digitally penetrating the victim. Is that not gross sexual imposition, and/or sexual assault? Is any penetration considered rape?
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
I don't know the law first hand, but I have read a couple times that this case is considered rape under Ohio law.
I just didn't see compelling evidence for a guilty ruling for a rape charge. Something bad clearly happened but I just don't see where the "beyond the shadow of a doubt" aspect comes into play here. There is just too much grey area in this case for anything to be clear cut enough to potentially ruin 2 kids lives. I just hope this was a correct verdict and that outside pressures from the community and protesters abroad weren't a factor, as they never should be.
I agree with you, and am wondering where there was any concrete evidence--I suppose there were eyewitnesses who saw the act occur? Also I thought I had read somewhere that a blanket the girl woke up in had traces of one of the defendant's semen.
I just hope this guilty verdict was reached through compelling evidence and was in no way influenced by the court of public opinion.
Yeah, the annoying thing about this case is that while the details are somewhat sparse, the public opinion for this case is as strong as any case. To me the involvement of some of the adults is what is really, truly, disgusting.
There is no "beyond a shadow of a doubt" standard. The standard is reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt is not 100% and it is not to a mathematical certainty. It is simply a doubt which is based in reason and common sense. That is the standard in criminal law.
is it not reasonable to question exactly what transpired that night? The girl herself had no idea what happened, and I am not sure who was/was not in a position to recall what happened that night. I am not condoning what happened or speculating as to the exact events, I am just saying that I believe there was reasonable doubt.
It is reasonable to question what happened, that is what a trial is for. There is not a REASONABLE doubt as to what happened, after all the evidence and testimony
1. May's semen was found ON THE BLANKET SHE WAS LAYING ON
2. Suspected semen on the victim was seen in a photograph taken that night
3. Three eyewitnesses say they saw the defendants' digitally penetrating the victim
4. Text messages that night sent to the defendant by neutral parties show what was going on...
5. The defendant's friends were basically live tweeting/texting/blogging what was happening, including wonderful things like "Song of the night is definitely Rape Me by Nirvana"
6. Their was testimony about video and photographs taken that were deleted. Here is what was on May's phone
7. The photograph of her being held by her ankles and wrist show she was cleary too intoxicated/unconscious to consent to anything, nixing any consent defense
So I'm curious, with three eye witnesses, DNA of the defendant at the scene, suspected semen on the victim's person, and the live texting/tweeting going on, and the girl being unable to consent...what reasonable doubt do you have?
You should be a prosecutor.
Haha I actually am a prosecutor
They took the girl home in that blanket, dumped her off in her front yard and urinated on her.
Do you have a daughter???
They will go after some Big Red coaches next. The Mays kid went to his head coach first, telling him he needed help. The head coach told him not to worry he would "fix" things. WOW, the vast majority of head coaches would kick you off the team at that moment. These 2 took this girl to an assistant coaches house!?!? They obviously had been drinking. He saw the girl and told them they should take her somewhere else. What does that say?? You can do what you want, just don't do it at my house!
They should have tried the kids as adults and thrown the maximum penalty at them. Total disregard for humanity.
If that's true about the coaches, they should be fired ASAP.
Do you know who the coach is there?
EDIT: I just want to say I completely agree with you but I doubt it happens.
I told my wife that these boys are lucky that they are not dead. She asked why? I told her, "What do you think my reaction would be if this happened to my daughter?"
I just really hope that both the victim and the perps can recover from this and make something of themselves. They have to choose if this is thing that defines them for the rest of their lives, or if this is the catalyst that spurs them on to something better.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
i literally have seen over one hundred internet badass posts like this. Please tell me you don't actually think you would commit first degree murder?
The thought would certainly be entertained. Honestly, who knows what my or anyone's response would be in a situation like this. It's one of those things you don't know until you are put in that situation. I hope to never find out. But I will ask, "Do you have children?" If you do, then you know just how ingrained the desire to protect your child is. If you don't have children, you don't get it.
This is less about internet badassery and more about the truth that many, many people have been murdered for far less. These boys are lucky that the father/mother/sibling/uncle/cousin were able to remain composed enough to let the courts handle it.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
The truth you say? Wouldn't the real truth be that you wouldn't want to be imprisoned for the rest of your life? Wouldn't it be that you wanted to be with your daughter and help her make better decisions as well as protecting her from suffering in that manner ever again? Guess what though? Thats what happens 99 percent of the time, otherwise, we'd have a lot less rapists behind bars and more six feet under. I don't want to go through a situation like this if/when I have a child one day either, but I can tell you I HOPE that I would be more concerned with my child rather than some degenerate who exacting revenge on would give me no long term relief or pleasure. No, I do not have kids, but don't tell me I don't understand the desire to protect, please don't. Reminds me of my dad saying that basically just because he's been alive longer that he knows more about Ohio State football than I do , when in reality I passed him in that regard when I was 16, still loves my pops though.
Since you are both giving opinions, it's ok for both of you to have one, and not agree.
your right, i'm sorry, i get too mad when i get downvotes i dont feel i deserve
P.S. I didn't down vote you. While I don't think I am wrong in anything I wrote, I did admit that I concluded with my wife that I probably wouldn't kill these kids and let the courts handle it as this father did. Consider internet tough guy slayed, if that is what you were after.
Not looking for a pissing match. I come here for fun.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
I really wished you had keyed on my second paragraph wishing that all involved can pick up the pieces and move on to successful lives rather then focusing on internet hyperbole. . . but the internet is serious business, so anyway . . . after making the comment to my wife asking about how she thought I would respond, we had a serious conversation about it and the end result was that I probably wouldn't kill them but I would definitely consider it. But I continued and said that there are many more people out there much more hot headed than myself who would not hesitate to enact revenge and bury those boys. Sorry that I didn't extend my conversation to its conclusion.
All this said, nothing I said in my second post is wrong. People kill each other all the time, without motive i.e. for far less than revenge. Secondly, you think you have experienced the full range of emotion, and I am sure you have lived a live full of highs and lows, so I am not trying to patronize you here, but the fact that you just compared having more knowledge than your father about Ohio State football to knowing and understanding the depths of love you feel toward a child, show you don't get it.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
Maybe you do understand the desire to protect your children, I can say with certainty that I didn't understand it until I had a child of my own. Please understand that the desire to protect your children is a natural instinct, it isn't something that you can learn or memorize or anything else. It is a very basic natural reaction, I think most fathers with daughters would at least think about reacting by hurting others. Most of those fathers wouldn't necessarily act on that thought or make such a bad decision, but the though would cross my mind for sure.
"Michigan and "huge mistake" are synonymous"
-Mark Titus
@ Kevin: First degree murder is obviously too steep. HOWEVER, having a niece myself, if animals like this did something to her of this manner, or even just laid a hand on her, they'd be in pain; lots and lots and lots of pain. I read earlier you said there's too much grey area in the case? Did you see the picture of the two animals holding the girl by her arms and feet like she was trophy? Did you watch the 12 minute video of one of their asshole friends laughing about what the guys did to her? Look it up, it's horrifying. Those two pieces of evidence alone, leave little grey area for me. These kids got off easy.
" ... let's beat the shit out of M*chigan." -Urban Meyer-
Hey man, I'm not saying their innocent. All I'm saying is lets not hypothetically say we would kill a 16 year old kid, we're better members of the forums than that. Admittedly, I have not delved too much into this case, so I haven't seen the video you're talking about, but as it pertains to the photo, I believe there was testimony saying she was awake perhaps laughing(?) when that photo was taken. Also, with this case, if it was so clear cut and there was no "grey area" why all the protesters? why the national attention? This wasn't clear cut, that's why this case is controversial. The verdict may not be surprising, but a lot of people don't even think the kids had a chance at a not guilty verdict, and not because of the evidence. Again, I don't know all the details of this case, but what I do know, is that this wasn't a simple trial, this was very complex for many reasons.
Back to the point I was originally making--a grown man shouldn't say he would kill a 16 year old on a website about COLLEGE athletics, its common hillbilly-speak.
Oh, I agree with you about making any reference to killing someone. That's messed up.
" ... let's beat the shit out of M*chigan." -Urban Meyer-
It's happened in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you've ever met someone who was the victim of traumatic rape...I think you would understand why some people might want to take things into their own hands if the justice system failed.
I agree, if you have kids there is an entirely different element, especially having a daughter. That being said her parents have to be extremely disappointed with their own parenting & their daughter's poor choices. Steubenville is my hometown & trust me when I tell you that it's worse than what the media is putting out; it's a "mob town" to say the least which could be the reason.
With the ruling, I largely doubt they get 4-5 years. Richmond will get a minimum of 1 year, whereas Mays will get the minimum of 2 years unless they can find more to tack on. The nature of what they did was worse than what they actually did, IMHO & I think the separation lies in that.
"Leave...Your...Mark..."
I've been thinking for a while that cases like this should be a lesson to parents with sons.
Not only should you have the "sex" talk with your boys. But you should also be spelling out to them how you expect them to act when dating, drinking, and the mixing of girls and drinking. Basically, how to be a mensch when interacting with young women.
There's bound to be lives ruined by what occurred in Steubenville. Hopefully some learning happens as well.
#fistpumpgobuckeyes
YES - this needs to be a wake-up call to parents all the way around, but especially for boys, whom I fear we are forgetting as a species.
I don't have any children yet but I do have 3 sisters. Let's just say if that were to have happened to one of my sister's a maximum security prison would have been a vacation compared to what I would have done.
What really saddens me about this situation is the reactive nature of our society. A proactive approach to molding children into diligent, ethical, morally responsible adults has been replaced by a reactionary approach composed of cutting corners and looking the other way, all due to an attempt to gain as much recognition and obtain as much power/control as possible with the least amount of effort and little to no perseverance. Raping others is a pathological action driven not by sexual urges, but by power and control. The masses in society enable this mentality by promoting the absorption of cultural and financial drivers solely put in place to promote a lifestyle of gaining as much power and control as possible, while the political system and media thrive on the reactive nature of the after effects. The head coach of this program (Reno Saccoccia) has been in charge since 1983 and this man has failed miserably in his role as both a leader and a mentor. Proactive measures to abolish this 'winning with dishonor' culture should have been taken long before the night these boys decided to follow through with the actions that led to this horrific event.
I hope that not only the two young men and the city of Steubenville learn a valuable lesson, but the entire infrastructure of our country as well. From our nation's president, all the way down to every caregiver responsible for an impressionable child who models their behavior after any and every action, comment, or decision made in their presence.
No one is above the law: the fact this was not a jury trial indicates just how deep this line had to be drawn in the sand.
Now, I hope the law is applied to any adults who may have been involved.
This was not a jury trial because they were tried as juveniles which are all bench trials
What they did was absolutely disgusting. The coaches/parents who knew about it should also be doing time. Or at least fired from any teaching/coaching jobs indefinitely. Their licenses should be revoked also.
Now I have a couple question for everybody.
1. If you are the father of the girl. Do you say/do anything to her about her being in high school and getting so drunk that she passes out? Or is it too touchy because of what happened to her?
My wife asked me this and I had absolutely no idea what to say.
2. Because the coaches knew about it can the OHSAA get involved in this and reprimand the program/school?
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault.
JACK TATUM
I think you get her into counseling not just for of being a victim of rape, but also for being thrust into the spotlight of such a horrible situation.
Edit: Darn phone shut down. I think you work with the profession to present a united message of compassion and love but also responsibility. As I said in an earlier post, hopefully the girl can eventually move past "victim" and can make herself a better person for having survived this trying experience.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
I know I'm toeing that line by saying this, but a friend/acquaintance of the victim testified on the behalf of the defense that the vic had a history of drinking to the point of blacking out like that at parties. It may not be a bad suggestion that the parents become more knowledgeable of the girl's social life, because she's only sixteen, and if they don't know she has a problem, they're not paying enough attention.
There is talk of more charges coming to others who didn't report what they saw, but I'm not sure what trouble coaches could get into- they obviously weren't there, anything they are told is hearsay. I assume the school district and/or OSHAA has a rule about reporting activities they hear rumors about, but I don't know for sure...
The postgame show is brought to you by... Christ, I can't find it. The hell with it...
At the end of the day she probably learned her lesson about her own irresponsible behavior. Drinking to that level of excess is never a good idea at any age or in any situation. While her actions did not deserve anything that happened to her, she clearly committed her own mistakes that night. And at some point a parent has a responsibility to address that with their child. So while it may not be the first thing I would say to her, I would definitely address it with her at some point.
You can't be serious. People get hammered it's what happens, that's life. There is no lesson for her to learned other than while getting hammered to be accompanied by close friends that she trusts. The lack of knowledge about rape sometimes is mind blowing.
BS dude... the lesson learned is that if you leave yourself vulnerable by making poor decisions someone may take advantage of that. I don't care if it is your own family you are passing out around, once you put yourself in a situation that you can't even stay conscious, you have made a decision to trust anyone and everyone who finds you like that. That is a poor decision, how many horror stories have we seen from situations like hers? Too many. Anyone who thinks getting hammered is "no big deal" has yet to learn any real life lessons. Acting like getting hammered is some right will only lead to more and more people being taken advantage of in that state. It is a decision one makes taking on a lot of risk, hopefully more people realize the risk are not worth it.
That's simply not true, getting hammered is most definitely a part of life. NONE OF THIS is her fault in any way. If there is a lesson to be learned it is to go out and get hammered with trusted friends but don't act like any of this is her fault.
I didn't, I clearly stated is was not her fault. Getting hammered is most certainly not a part of life and anyone stating so is way off. I have never been hammered and neither have a lot of people. This also means that we've never been in a situation where someone could have taken advantage of me, and it is scary to think of the person that would take advantage of me...
Someone can not be at fault directly, but still have made poor choices that put them in a situation to be taken advantage of. Poor choices don't imply fault, no one has made that link but you. But she most certainly made poor choices putting her in a position to be taken advantage of, there is no way around it. But it certainly doesn't imply fault.
This idea that getting hammered is fine and is part of life is a terrible lie thrown upon our kids with no way to understand the implications of their actions. Too much glorification of a purely questionable act leaving on incapacitated and unable to take care of themselves. It leaves on at selfishly at the mercy of everyone around him or her. Very often is ends horribly, especially for teenagers without the ability to discern the consequences of their actions. It's a poor choice and IMO shows poor decision making skills.
That is a part of growing up, maybe if she was 30 I would agree with you. However, this girl was only 16 many teenagers when drinking don't understand their own tolerance levels enough yet to understand when is too much. Finally, we know how perfect the holier than thou STEENSN is.
Spare me the ad hominem's...
You glorifying and acting like it is "ok" and "a part of life" frankly only makes these teenagers feel they need to do it even more. Instead, we could show them how to make good decisions and not put themselves in bad positions.
Kids aren't going to just stop drinking, that isn't realistic. A better alternative would be to educate kids on how to drink more responsibly and how to prepare before drinking. Such as bringing trusted friends or knowing your tolerance better. Seriously though, KIDS AREN'T GOING TO JUST STOP DRINKING.
Devil's advocate question to illustrate Steens' point without the same emotional hyperbole that understandably comes with sexual assault/rape:
If the victim in this case had all of her money stolen while she was "hammered," would she bear any responsibility for her actions?
If the victim crashed her father's car while she was "hammered," would she bear any responsibility for her actions?
Let's be clear: getting raped is not her fault, and to suggest it is goes beyond the pale. Steen makes an important point, however, that should not be overlooked simply because we're all emotionally jacked up about this case (I, for one, am among the fathers of little girls above who knows exactly where his shotgun is stored, and have seen several Clint Eastwood movies that illustrate how these situations should be dealt with).
If you "get hammered," you are by nature and definition giving up your own cognitive responsibility to protect yourself, and giving up any presumption that you will emerge from said intoxication unscathed. The one time in my life I was that "hammered," I was fortunate enough that I had two very good friends who made sure I made it home safe and sound from the infamous CommFest... God only knows what would have happened to me were it not for those Saints.
Well if she was driving a car yeah because her being "hammered" generally can't hurt anyone else except when driving. The point you made about Commfest was the point that I was originally trying to make, I have never been hammered like this girl was but I have definitely been tipsy before. I think that in most cases it can be a learning experience as long as people approach it semi-responsibly.
But let's take my CommFest experience a step further... What if my friends hadn't been my guardians and shepherds in this case? What if I had wondered off and left them at some bar and gotten mugged in some alley? Would that have been my fault? I tend to say yes, I would have borne at least some responsibility for willingly giving away my mental faculties...
I would actually completely agree with you on that, you would bare some responsibility. It's definitely a difficult situation as far as over drinking in public goes, that's why it is so important that when people go to parties or when they go out drinking that they have people that they can rely on. I also think there are absolutely different levels of being hammered. There is fun but stumbling around a little bit and then there is blacking out at a party. When I was referring earlier to being "hammered" I was more talking about the first choice.
I agree with a lot of your and Steensn's points--and I think that all three of us are beyond disgusted with the unspeakable acts committed by these people--but I don't think that your aforementioned examples truly illustrate that she bears responsibility:
If she were driving drunk, than she'd have made a completely stupid decision, one that her cognitive state did not lend her toward making. If she were robbed, than her rights were infringed upon by criminals. The fact that she was drunk doesn't necessarily mean that she'd have been not been put in the same situation had she been sober, though it definitely left her more vulnerable towards it. But, on the same subject, if I am mugged whilst walking around a sketchy neighborhood, am I to blame for not choosing to carry a weapon?
She does indeed bear some responsibility for the fact that she was cognitively impaired when the acts occurred, but it still remains the fact that those men that took advantage of her--the idea of "rape" implies that it is a one-sided transaction.
Furthermore, if we're to conclude that her drunkenness at least partially is to blame for what happened to her, what of the two boys who committed the crime? Were they truly of sound mind? I wonder if alcohol was involved in persuading them to make the decisions that they made.
Again, I think that these boys--and the repugnant masses that protected them--deserve punishment to the full extent of the law (my blood's boiling just thinking about what I'd do to them, which simultaneously makes me very appreciative of our legal system), but trying to understand "responsibility" when alcohol is involved is a slippery slope. I'm not trying to say that there's really an answer to this, but she was failed by people who could have (and should have) protected her. Even if she left herself vulnerable, this shit shouldn't ever happen; and to me, at least, makes the crime even more unspeakable.
Your bottom line is the most important one: this shit shouldn't ever happen.
Responsibility also is definitely the wrong word to use in the context of the discussion, in hindsight, because it unintentionally obfuscates my fervent believe that regardless of her level of intoxication, rape is never the victim's fault - ever.
Given that my hypotheticals were only for the purpose of playing the devil's advocate, I'm grateful to you for pointing out the biggest flaw in the drunk driving example - that of choice - though I'll hold that the robbery/mugging example is a good parallel given that both are predicated on the criminal actions of others.
I think the original point Steen was making, which I also made in a separate and similarly emotional thread, is that young people today (says the 31-year-old in the room) are missing an important lesson: when it comes to alcohol, you control your own destiny. If you put yourself in bad circumstances, bad outcomes are more likely - they aren't your fault, but you at some point ceded at least some of your power to avoid the situation or fight back against it.
The point of disagreement some of our brethren here seem to have is that getting hammered is a rite of passage, and that the "party" lifestyle is to be accepted and embraced, damn the consequences (obviously I'm not saying that is your position, Hodge, just connecting the two arguments).
I agree with the "controlling your own destiny" argument, and agree that it can leave you vulnerable to terrible consequences (which people need to be need to be acutely aware of), I suppose that I feel the need to fixate more on the criminals because such discussions tend to (unintentionally) paint the victim's culpability as equal to that as the boys who took advantage of such a state.
Not that I think anyone really believes that, I just try to emphasize the point because of how much things like this disgust me.
It's a good emphasis because no one here is saying that she deserved it or it is directly her fault. Just that had different decisions been made she would have been in a less vulnerable situation to begin with.
Hodge,
What you said there reminds me of the Kitty Genovese story in Malcom Gladwell's "Tipping Point".
For those not familiar with the "Bystander Problem" it's basically this, a woman in NYC was attacked and stabbed by a man three times while running away from him in the street. 38 separate neighbors watched from their windows as she was attacked, got away, attacked, got away, and finally attacked a third time and succumbed to the wounds. Not one person helped and not one called the police. Why??!! The basic point is that, the more people there are, the less likely that they will help you because people think someone else will do it and when they look around and see that no one else is helping, it reaffirms to them that they shouldn't help. Based on studies, you are more likely to receive assistance when in trouble, if there are fewer people to help. Attached is an except describing this phenomenon as noted in the book. Mash it
This does not, I repeat, . . . DOES NOT . . . release those bystanders of responsibility from watching this girl get abused but it is an interesting look into why people behave this way.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
Perfect example/analysis, and TP is one of my favorite books I've read thus far in 2013.
Yeah. Great so far. I am listening to it on the drive to and from work right now. I haven't read any of his other stuff, but I probably will now.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
'Outliers' and 'Blink' are really good books as well. Also, he's got a collection of shorter stories and articles which have appeared in the New Yorker, called "What the dog saw: And other adventures". He's supposed to have a new book coming out this year as well.
Thanks. I couldn't remember their names. I'll be checking them out.
This got me thinking:
Has 11W tipped? or is the site on the verge of tipping? Or if it did tip, when/what was the tipping point?
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
This question is so insightful, I thought it was worthy of its own discussion... I hope you don't mind, but I think your line of thinking is important enough to talk about outside the context of the Steubenville debacle.
NP. I was thinking about starting that as a topic, but I had already started typing on this thread and was typing from my phone. Didn't feel like taking the extra steps of retyping and creating a thread. I look forward to hearing what people have to say.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
Kitty Genovese's fate is probably one of the saddest, most disturbing stories of psychological indifference (or inaction, depending upon your thought of those people) that I've ever heard. If you're familiar with the work of Milgram and the conformity experiments of Ashe, the "bystander problem" becomes frighteningly logical.
Those experiments you noted are pretty fascinating.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
Detroit,
Did I say all kids would stop drinking? Spare me the straw man's...
Glorification of the act makes kids want to do it more. Les glorification by the media and adults will lead to less drinking. Will it go away? No, but those influenced by adults to think it is "normal" and "cool" will clearly not be influenced if we are good examples.
Drinking to the extent that people are falling all over the floor is not normal but drinking at a party or bar is very normal. Glorification by the media has absolutely nothing to do with it, the media doesn't glorify smoking but that hasn't gone away. Drinking isn't the problem, drinking responsibly is. Btw, I am not talking about this specific instance in any way just generally.
We have gone from being absolutely plastered to just having a drink. Smoking has tanked in terms of % of people smoking, it used to be glorified, now it isn't. We've seen smoking come from the 40%'s to 20%'s, that is great and shows the impact of public opinion and taking something that is glorified and cool to something that is not.
I never once said having a drink was wrong. Again, we were taking about getting "hammered," not a drink or two with friends at the bar.
Again you misread what I was trying to say, I wasn't saying just a drink or two. There are many different levels of "hammered" though. Rolling on the floor and stumbling around are two very different things. All I was saying is that when people do drink heavily they need to do it responsibly.
I agree with drinking responsibly, but we can't overlook the fact that a 16 year old girl has NO BUSINESS getting "hammered" in the first place. Drinking responsibly is something you're afforded to do at age 21 in this country so while we're slinging all these charges around - the people hosting the party & the girl need to be charged for intoxication of a minor.
I remember being a senior in High School & being in college - whenever the plan was to go out and get "hammered" it was always within a group of maybe 5-6 people at the least. I had a high tolerance so I rarely got "hammered" as it was, but girls especially need to stick together when they go out, hammered or not, they should rarely be out alone unless they know how to handle themselves & are carrying preventive/protective devices.
That being said, and I'm NOT casting blame at her - this girl had a reputation for being promiscuous and free spirited as far as partying goes, but again I don't blame her, I blame her parents.
"Leave...Your...Mark..."
GREAT POINT: 16-year-old students should not be in a situation to have unsupervised access to that much hooch in the first place.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, I wasn't speaking about her specifically as much as I was from my own experiences. I don't think anybody would charge a girl with intoxication of a minor especially with what she went through. Minors are going to drink, they just need to make sure that they have their precautions in check as you mentioned in your second paragraph. Great post btw.
Maybe it is just semantics, but based on your above comments I think we disagree on what it means to drink responsibly. I don't think that you can ever be "responsibly hammered." And a 16 year old that gets blackout drunk multiple times a month is already an alcoholic with a severe drinking problem. That is what I said the parents should address and what I would address if I were her parent.
This isn't a moral issue for me so much as a health issue. Unfortunately she has likely already done irreparable harm to her cognitive development. But helping her learn how to be responsible would certainly help prevent any future harm.
I would agree that a 16 year old who does this on a regular basis has a drinking problem. I would have to know how regularly she does this in order to call it a severe problem, some people just can't handle their liquor. As far as being hammered and being responsible you can absolutely do that. It's called doing it at your house, with limited amounts of people in a controlled environment. No party environment is ever truly safe because it's impossible to know everyone in the environment. Chances are she hasn't done irreparable harm to her cognitive development, most alcohol related problems if stopped can be completely reversed.
People should be able to drink to excess without the fear of having their body violated. She shouldn't be blamed for their decision.
No one should expect if they turn themselves into a lifeless bag of water that nothing bad will happen to them. It is no excuse for rape, nor is this situation "her fault," but it IS a poor decision on her part to put herself in a situation where she can't control her own body. While everyone should be able to have no fear their body will be violated, whether passed out or not, knowing we live in a world were people don't care about that, it is a poor decision to do put yourself in that situation. Lots of rapes could be prevented with a little restraint and control in keeping oneself from getting into the situation in the first place. I feel sorry for the girl, but I hope other girls can see what happened and not make the same decisions that leave themselves vulnerable to this type of abuse. It will prevent a lot more rapes and the pain that comes with it.
It is disgusting and I am glad to see this matter being taken seriously.
1) I think she learned her lesson. She now has to heal from the experience, making her feel worse about it is not the best idea. My answer is "not yet." Time will heal if you give her the tools, making her feel like it is her fault doesn't help that.
2) Absolutely if they didn't act on it and should have. Knowing doesn't mean anything unless they didn't move on it and someone needed too. PSU learned their lesson and set a new standard. If these guys didn't learn then more people need to be aware. Hopefully it just falls on the individual persons and not the whole program though.
Let's pray that MANY young people learn not to place themselves in these situations Then, commit yourselves to teaching your own not to let the devil in and all that comes with him. Some good might come out of these horrible events.
Spirit
Several very bad decisions led up to this. I hope somehow that people can learn where to stop before it ends up that far.
So glad that justice was finally served, if only Lizzy Seeberg were granted the same...
Cases like this underscore the severity to which people place sports programs above all else. The saddest thing is that we've placed the success of these teams above basic humanity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zWLJZw9Ws-g
Also of note here is the positive presence of polarizing anti-heroes Annonymus. The fact that this story gained traction is largely due to their efforts. This isn't the first time they've done something like this, but it's definitely the highest-profile example.
Anonymous may be the future of nations.
Satire isn't always funny... this is in poor taste...
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/03/18/steubenville-rapists-released-footbal...
Thought I should post this before someone (like on facebook where I have seen it 10 times already) thinking it was real...