I believe this is the best option and definitely puts a lot more emphasis on The Game.
Just sharin the info. O-H
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I'm not sure I agree with it. I really do not see the B1G wanting to keep its best two programs in the same division. You cannot balance a conference purely on geography. It does not work out so well.
It has worked out really well for the SEC. When they first split into divisions, the East was a power house with Spurriers Florida and Fulmers Tennesse (sorta Georgia). Then it worked back to balanced with FLA and UGA battling with Bama and LSU from the west. Now the West is up with Bama and LSU (Auburn snuck in there).
You get the point.
Hopefully the B1G will balance out competitively over time.
It has not worked out so well for Arkansas....
Just wait till fat head has his time, they will be on top in no-time.
What conference that has divisions is actually balanced right now? SEC? No - the West > East. PAC 12? No - North is stronger with both Oregon and Stanford. Big 12? Probably never was with South having Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M with the North having Nebraska and maybe one other school that decided on rare occasions to be good. ACC? Well, you had ranked FSU vs 6-6 Georgia Tech in their championship game this year, so you tell me.
Class of 2010.
Right but now is the opportunity to make them balanced. Pac-12 is based on geography. Those other conferences were drawn up awhile ago. The B1G has the opportunity to make it right and balanced, they actually did a pretty good job a few years ago maintaining the balance throughout.
Big XII also done by geography, no one would ever think that those divisions would be even. With Nebraska and an occasional KState or Misery team in the North.
It definitely puts a huge amount of emphasis on the game. Can you imagine how diluted it would feel if we played Michigan back to back? This is certainly the best way to have it. For years to come it will most likely be whoever wins that game will move on to the B1G title and better.
No offense intended, but do you really think 'Bama considered its national title game with LSU to be diluted?
And if you look at the Big XII for example, how many times did Texas (or Oklahoma for that matter) playing Nebraska in the championship game????
Regardless of how you handicap the divisions (and I agree that OSU and UM would be favored to win their respective divisions) the mathematical chance of meetings is pretty low -- basically OSU versus the field and UM versus the field, and you'd have to hit both parlays.
Well I was of the opinion that the rematch for the title game between Bama and LSU was an awful idea, and that having rematches like that are a little silly, because the game was decided already, why do it again? But is the general consensus otherwise?
Don't know that there is a consensus, and there was some groaning outside the SEC, but I also know that 'Bama was damn glad to be there!
I think the groaning was about two teams from the conference playing in the game.
To extend your point, the biggest point of contention was 2 teams from the same division playing in the National Championship game.
And with the above points, of course Alabama was excited for a rematch, just as Michigan would've been excited for a rematch. But do you think deep down that any LSU fan really wanted a rematch in the same way most Ohio St. fans (at the time) didn't want a rematch with Michigan. I wouldn't want OSU to play Michigan again after we have already beat them. What does playing them again prove? It's a lose-lose situation for the winner of the first game. You beat them...so what, you already did and didn't show you could beat another top tier team. If you lose, that speaks for itself.
Hell, you can even go back to MSU and Wisconsin in 2011. MSU wins in a thriller during the season and they meet again in the championship game and Wisconsin pulls it out. Granted that can happen within the conference when you plays teams in another division and meet in a championship game, but those 2 aren't rivals at least, so playing again isn't a big deal, especially when spread that far apart. The point is that the winner of the first game has nothing to gain in terms of public perception.
The gap between OSU/UM and the rest of the B1G is far greater than the gap between Bama/LSU and the rest of the SEC...I think hitting both Parlays would happen more often than not..at least for the next 3-4 years upcoming.
Yes it certainly does. But how does that bode in the future for smaller teams. Under that theory, a smaller team, such as Penn St or Maryland would likely have to beat both Michigan and OSU in the same season. The odds of the new division being dominated by OSU and TTUN is very high. Maybe that is a good thing but I do not believe it maintains the balance in the conference.
I'm not too concerned with Rutgers or Maryland because they're new to the conference anyway, but how would you like to be Indiana, for example, and know that you will basically never have a chance to win the division or beyond because it is so dominated by OSU & TSUN. Well, maybe they don't have such a great chance already but this really buries them.
To win the B1G, you've always had to go through OSU and M*ch. There has never been true balance as OSU and M*ch have won a combined 77 B1G titles.
And how is Penn St a smaller team? Maybe while sanctioned but before and after they definitely have a seat at the B1G boy table.
And Indiana has always had no chance, even when there were just 10 and now, no matter what division you put them in.
Exactly. To be the best you gotta beat the best. If you are in the OSU/TSUN division and can beat them both, and you handle your business in the other conference game, then you have earned your spot in the B1G championship game.
Teams from the other division may not have to beat both OSU and TSUN to get there. Having 9 or 10 conference games increases the chances that they have to play at least one of them, and maybe even both. If they get to the B1G championship game, though, and they have to play OSU or TSUN - whichever one they do have to play most likely beat the other (unless they lost to the rival when the rival had a down year but pulled off an upset). This is where the transitive property comes in. Yes, when the transitive property is grossly expanded, it can lead to absurd conclusions, but in this case, it's not so bad. If OSU beat TSUN to win their division and then someone beats OSU in the B1G championship, then the team that beat OSU deserves it.
Class of 2010.
But I think the point that was being made was if you find yourself in the same division as OSU and Missagain you really have no chance as you'd have to play both teams as opposed to when maybe one of the other teams didn't have to face both or even either due to the way the schedule fell in the old B1G. Those fans would know before the season even started they had no chance
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
Are we really referring to Penn State as a "Smaller Team"?
They compare quite favorably to Michigan over the last 10 years.
But, what's better than...The Game?
And aren't we diluting that Omnipotent chemistry, if the prize is a date in the B1G CG against - say, Indiana? I mean - really - beating Michigan to earn the right to play any other B1G team for the CG, just doesn't measure up to that level of mortal combat, delivered by The Game..
There's a damn good chance Ohio State and Michigan will face each other, twice, this year.
I'm for reserving final judgment on this question until after this year, at least. Because if it does happen, I suspect the entertainment value of The Game: "The Regular Season Edition" and The Game: "The Championship Edition" will be quite great.
I'm inclined to value it more as a once a year ordeal, you beat TTUN and get to gloat about it for an entire year until the next season comes along. Wouldn't it be a little odd if we played twice and it ends up 1-1? Nobody won the rivalry that season?
No, I think 1-1 would stoke the fire, more.
You gotta win'em both.
right...but...imagine the outrage if we beat them at the end of the year...we have a better record and they beat us in the championship game. Then off goes ttun to a better bowl with a worse record.
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
That could happen to any team from the other side.
I think they possibility of playing them 2x outweighs the downside - which you pointed out.
agreed.win division(BEAT M),and play what will be a WIS NB or lets hope iowa(whos sports teams make $ for them)wants to get in the game w/ILL as well.I've never seen these programs this far off the grid.
here's mine EAST -rutgers
MD
PSU
BAU----thats us/BAD ASS U
douchie U
MSU
IN
WEST-PUR WIS MINN ILL NW IOWA NEB
from what they also are floating here is a 10 game conference scedule,so you play the 6 in your div and 4 others,hope they decide on 9.
knucklehead
Forgetting that 2 more teams will probably be added in the not so distant future and we don't know which divisions they will be in.
Being in different divisions is a huge competitive disadvantage for OSU and TSUN:
(1) One of your out-of-division games each year has to be against each other, which means every year you are playing one of the best teams in the other division, giving you one less opportunity to play a bottom-feeder. Instant disadvantage in B1G play.
(2) There is a good chance you'll have to play each other twice, hurting the B1G's chances to have a representative in the national championship playoff (until the reputation of the league improves, one loss will make it difficult to be in the top four, and two losses will make it near impossible). It is extremely difficult to beat a team twice in the same season, let alone in two consecutive weeks.
Although it is easier to balance the divisions if you separate the strongest two programs, I think you have to put them in the same division.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
I think this ^^^ is the best argument for same division.
On the surface I agree, but I would have said the same thing about the SEC having a championship game. That turned out ok for them...
Also our schedule is WEAK and getting weaker. With the addition of Rutgers and MD and the thought of 10 league games we need a better schedule. UM will do that.
That theory really depends on who gets swapped out for Michigan.
But also, that means if OSU and TTUN meet again in the championship, then they both likely at worst 2 losses in conference. 2 losses just in conference is an automatic DQ from the 4. So really it comes down to if either team is undefeated or one loss. Either way, no matter who is the championship game, it is a tough game. But what it is going to come down to is, who lost to who and when was the loss. It is very difficult to assess all of the possibilites of what can happen in a given year.
Actually, in the SEC, a rematch in the title game has happened 6 times, with the regular season winner being 5-1 in the championship game.
This is true, but how many times of these rematches been in back-to-back weeks? I don't know, but I'm guessing not very often.
Your argument, it is flawless. I was literally thinking the exact same thing.
To put your logic into play, if you don't mind, the 2006 year (when many people wanted a rematch between OSU and TSUN) probably wouldn't have happened in 2014 with the playoffs if they were in opposite divisions. OSU would have played in The Game, the most likely would have played a week later against TSUN in the B1G championship game. If OSU would have won (they would have) then TSUN would not have been in the 4 team playoff. If they are in the same division, the OSU beats TSUN in The Game, plays another team in the B1G championship (Likely Wisconsin) and TSUN would have likely been selected into the 4 team playoff. This would have given B1G two teams in the final 4 playoff.
Obviously this is based on a lot of assumption but I think it is highly likely that this would have worked out this way and further proves your point that the same divisions might help out if/when the B1G returns to a great reputation again.
Yes.
We think about it the same way. And in fact it is even more acute for us. We always have protected rivalry games with The Ohio State University and The Other Michigan State University. MSU and Nebraska are fighting their way past the likes of Indiana, etc. at the end of the season.
Anyway, our mutual desire to be in the same conference division is a no-brainer. Yes, we want it. Because the alternative is the grave risk that some conference geniuses with communications degrees will move The Game to October. That Must Not Happen.
I think it is sweet for us to be in the same division together. It would just suck, to be one of the other poor sap fanbases in the other division. Can you imagine being a Wisconsin or Illinois and being in a Big Ten Conference division without Michigan and Ohio State (or Ohio State and Michigan, depending on where you live)? It would be like being in the MAC. The Tweens' Football Conference.
That could even be the basis for the new division names; the Overlords (OSU & M) and the Others.
Well said. Beating a team in two consecutive weeks is not only very difficult, where's the draw? It lessens the title game, and the our biggest rivalry at the same time. Both are good for the Big ten. This setup hurts the Big Ten..
Where is the draw? I will go to the first 4 Michigan/OSU games of any season.
We would, I agree. What about the rest of the conference, or outside of the conference... Why would they want to see it? That's what the championship game is about after all.
Winner goes on and the loser goes home. The universe stays in balance and the GAME holds it's rightful place.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
This will take away from "The Game". What will it be now, "The Games"? If we do play two consecutive against them, it will eventually forever change the way we look at that storied series. Change can be a good thing but it can also be possible to completely eff up something that has been great for decades. They haven't called it "The Game" for nothin'.
It has been this way for the past two seasons. Neither team has made it for one reason or another.
The B1G has a responsibilty to act in the best interests of its schools and the conference as a whole. Competitive balance is an important aspect of alignment. I do not think two games really alters "The Game" that much.
My a*hole answer to LouGroza is "you don't have to watch the championship game if you don't want to"
Seriously though, playing twice will be a rare event, and when it does happen, it will be cool
I don't think playing TTUN twice would be rare it all if we maintain the current division layout. All you have to do is look at conference champion history to see what two schools own the B1G.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.
Check out the past 10 years Dante under hypothetical division alignments.
Maybe play twice? Once?
Think you understand the point GBB that one game for all the marbles is the epitome of sport. So having A game, then having THE game, if it does indeed end up that way, will diminish the epic nature of what has been. I would watch twice. No one could keep me from watching. It would eventually, if it becomes a regular occurrence, water down its tradition somewhat.
Understood and agreed -- it is exactly why I hate the NBA.
But but but but - it would have been fine with me if we played them in the NCS after we beat them 42-37 when we were 1 and 2. If I can get you to come that far with me (and I read you enough to know that you are good with that) then the next step is to get your nod on a rematch every 5 years or so where they are both top 10 coming into the game.
Imagine we had a conference champ game back in 2006, could you imagine going unbeaten, then beating your top ranked rival and finishing the season undefeated only to lose to the team you just beat a week ago? It would all but ruin the season. It's bad for the school and the conference. It would cost us money as well and walking around with a black eye for a year. There is a reason its a rivalry game, if you played more than once it would render the first match meaningless. All people remember is the last game.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.
And GLs point about coming back for that second win after the jubilation of the initial victory would be a concern. Usually a letdown following a big win and with the emotion that goes into that game, it could come back being one big kick in the pants.
I can appreciate your point GBB. Just do not want it every other year. Once every 5 years would work but when do things work out the we want?
Me neither.
But would you rather play UM twice, or, say, NU or UW.
Because the latter could/will happen also since inter-division games are contemplated under all present scenarios
Big Question: Is it an advantage or a disadvantage to have to play the same team twice in the season for the upcoming selection committee?
Basically playing the same team in back-back weeks
this is really good...although right now it may seem like a bit of a long shot with the B1G "down", it sets up the possibility of a rematch in the national title game should our conference begin to rise from the ashes...makes a lot of sense in terms of emphasizing The Game which IMO would get slightly diminished if both teams were already locked into the B1G Title game before The Game took place
I don't like the possibility of playing them twice, especially when going into the first game and both teams are a lock for the B1G championship game. I won't say it really waters down the rivalry, but it can def do more harm than good. I could see the current layout costing the conference a title game shot. Besides, it means more when they only play once.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.
If the non-OSU/TTUN division doesnt pick up the slack the B1G title game will be a cakewalk where OSU plays a 7-5, 8-4 team with 3-4 conference losses. That won't help the Buckeyes' SOS. It also may not help help make OSU stronger, either.
"Sherman ran an option play right through the south" - Greatest.Civil.War.Analogy.Ever
and it likely means not such a great turn out for the championship game
Battles are sometimes won by generals; wars are nearly always won by sergeants and privates. Football is no different, the guys down in the trenches win the games, not the coach.
I don't like the idea of OSU and Mich in the same division. If perception is reality, and recruiting is perception and reality then they are the best teams in the BIG by far. Why should another team get a free pass to the championship game-much like Wisconsin did this year because OSU and Mich are in the same division? If you really are into this rivalry why would you not want to see your team beat the other team twice in one year? I would much rather be a pain in their side twice in one year, especially if one of the games is for the BIG championship. Plus we could close the win/loss gap faster in some years. For those that have a problem playing Mich. in back to back weeks, why not play them every year in the sixth game of the year (for both teams)? Then the ratings won't slide, they'll probably be enhanced, the two best teams in the league playing for the title in the last week of the season, just like in the olden days.
MY BUTT'S SO BIG, I SPLIT MY PJ BOTTOMS
Why not play Michiscum three times? Let's open up the season with them and then meet up at the end of the year. Then it's off to Indy. Three times the excitement. Just think of the TV ratings for that final matchup, The Game III.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
Took me a second to recognize the sarcasm font. Whew. Thought you'd lost your mind there, buddy. Hahaha.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
If both are in same division, why not move "the game" to middle of october or earlier?
i'm intrigued...why would you want it this way if they were to still play only once a year?
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
Keep OSU and scUM in the same division then just shuffle the rest every other year so they can get a chance to try to win the other division. The Big10/B1G has and probably always will be "The OSU/scUM show". And any big team that plays both every year in the same division has a "colds chance in hell" to win anyway.
Wherever you are, there you be!
If we go to 9 conference games, I wonder if certain schools could have more than one protected rivalry game out of division. That would change things for sure.
(protected game)
Div 1: east
tOSU (illinois)
Meatchicken (sparty)
Penn State
Indiana
Purdue
Maryland
Rutgers
Div 2: west
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Michigan State
Nebraska
Iowa
Illinois
Northwestern
this format puts rivals in the same division, and seems somewhat balanced. I think we should play 9 conference games. The only thing I don't like is playing Rutgers and Maryland every year instead of traditional conference foes. But this way also makes geographic sense.
Dustin Fox was our leading tackler as a corner.... because his guy always caught the ball.
I can't wait to play MD and Rutgers every year, but I live in MD and work in NJ...
The way i think of it is...the worst case scenario is we play the last game of the year and then turn around (what is it?) 1 or 2 weeks later to play ttun again. It's deflating. With the season again possibly on the line for the guys to get amped up to basically play the same game over...i just don't see it. I also think it would be terrible for the conference from an outside viewers standpoint.
Leave The Game as is and to the victor go the spoils of the league championship.
"Winter is coming" - Urban Meyer
I see both sides of this one and I agree with your points but just imagine:
1) Beating them 2x in one season
2) Getting to watch the game 2x
3) Getting beat in the game and knocking them out of the 4 in the CCG
I love this. I do. Maybe its me being a purist, but in my opinion-Michigan and Ohio State need to only play each other once. Texas and Oklahoma did this for years and it added gallons of fuel to their rivalry. Generally, the winner of the RRS was their conference's Big 12 Championship representative (and eventual Big 12 Champ, usually). If both teams-OSU and Michigan-are good enough to play for the conference championship, they are good enough to beat the other to get there. Imagine the sheer joy (or disgust) you would feel as a fan if you watched OSU force Michigan out of an otherwise deserved B1G Championship game with no chance of getting there once OSU defeats them. On the other side of the coin, imagine the fire the fans, players, and coaches would feel if Michigan did the same to them with no chance of returning the favor until next season.
I really couldn't give a rats keister about the rest of the Big Ten. Its Ohio State. Its Michigan, and then its the rest of the conference fighting for the scraps-and that's exactly how it should be.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Very glad to see this. 'Bout time they got it right IMO.
The conference is diluted to the point now that it's Ohio State and Michigan and nobody else. Check the recent recruiting rankings, coaching changes, and the teams added via expansion.
Putting both teams in the same division weakens the brand. The other division will be an emaciated grouping of bottom feeders and honestly no team in our division is ever going to win it except for Ohio State or Michigan.
My thought..which won't set well..put them in opposite divisions and let The Game be the kickoff for the whole season. I'm talking first game of the season. It could be The Big Ten's way to get national attention every year by playing the first Thursday night of the year. Seriously, I don't care when we beat them, first or last game of the year.
Then, more times than not they will see each other at the end of the season in CCG. A loss by either one in the first game of the year won't hurt as much as you will have more time to work your way back up the rankings.
My concern, they keep us in seperate divisions, we beat them in The Game at the end of the year and Hoke gets lucky and beats us in the title game.