OK Buckeye nation, I need you to help settle an argument for me. My friend is arguing to me that Tressel is not the best coach beneath Woody of course, of the modern era of Ohio State. I argue that he is. His credentials stack up higher than Bruce's and for sure Coopers (especially against Michigan). What say you 11W?
Fellow buckeye fans, he's still arguing me, this is day 2. He posts as PDoggett73 Tell him the error of his ways!
Hmm... I'm with you. I say no way that Bruce or Coop are better than Tress. I'm fairly young (24) so my prime years were with Tress.. I wasn't alive when Bruce was there and most of the Coop era I don't remember, but I'm sure most fans agree with you.
I say your friend is either trolling you or doesn't know what a football is.
I would agree with Tress #2.Bruce #3 and Coop #4.Won't matter because Meyer I believe will pass all,when said and done,with exception to Woody,only because I don't think Meyer stays in coaching long enough to pass some of Woodys' records.Hope I am wrong.
SCOTTC.
Agree with this.
To the OP - If your friend is seriously arguing that any of these guys are better than Tress - tell them Tressel won a title with many of Coopers players. Tressel has more NC's then all of them combined (1 victory and 3 appearances).
I also agree that Meyer will surpass them all but hoping he stays and is not just a hot bright flash.
Paul Brown #4
IMHO, it depends on an individual's perspective. Tressel is the clear #1 based on W-L record, 3 nat'l championship appearances, BIG championships, and wins over TSUN. On the record against TSUN alone, Tressel has no equal, even better than Woody. However, I'd give the nod to Coach Bruce based on X's and O's. Bruce was a highly underrated coach, IMHO. Coop won a lot, but there's that record against TSUN that cannot be overcome.
In the stat that matters,
Tress 1
Coop 0
Earle 0
Enough said.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
Added the other important stat (wins over UM)
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
You could make an argument that Tress was the best coach in OSU history, even above Woody. His numbers are better in every single metric, save national titles. The following numbers COUNT the 2010 year: Overall winning % Tress 83, Woody 77. Record against scUM Tress 9-1, Woody 16-11 (Tress was also the only coach to win 7 straight against them). Tressel's teams finished in the top 9 eight of his 10 years coaching. I'm not saying Tressel was better than Woody, better an argument could be made. As far as Bruce and Coop, there isn't even a conversation to be had.
I think if Tress had been coach longer he could have passed Woody. As it is Woody is #1, but Tress was on track to pass him.
I agree that on paper you can make this argument, although Woody will always and forever be the emotional center of our universe as fans. The only thing I'll offer as a devil's advocate type of position is that the probability of Tressel maintaining his dominance - statistically speaking, and only statistically speaking - gets smaller and smaller over the duration of a lengthy career.
Without getting into probability mechanics, read this excellent post by 11w member Buckfutter for a glimpse at why going undefeated next season will be extremely difficult. The same logic applies.
So over a 10-year horizon, Tress was perhaps statically superior, but extrapolating that trend over a 30-year career, the percentages might not hold up.
Love him or hate him Joe Pa did it at a VERY high level for 30 years and a pretty high level the rest of his time. It can be done.
Yes, although you had those "lost seasons" in the early past of his last decade and some other low points, your example is valid.
My point wasn't that it can't be done, because obviously it can. The point is that it is notoriously difficult to compare a coach of 10 years' tenure to one of 28 years, simply because the percentages used in the comparison may not hold up over the long haul. Would you consider the second half of Tressel's time at the tiller better or worse than the first five years? The percentages/stats/metrics over any given time horizon change as circumstances change, that's all.
I still think Tressel was far and away the greatest post-Woody coach at Ohio State, and ranks with Paul Brown as the best coaches in school history not named Hayes. And, you can make the argument, as the poster did above, that Tressel was statistically better than Woody, though Woody will always be the heart and soul of Buckeye Nation for obvious reasons.
What would be interesting to see is the inputs of what makes that probability true (change over time and the ability to adapt to taht chance) compared to different eras . For example, football changes over time and therefore a coach has to adapt. Would Tressel be able to adapt and keep his statistics up? Further, is football changing more rapidly over the past 30 years than Woody's 30 years? Could Woody keep up today?
All questions I can't answers, but would provide light to the Woody v Tressel debate. I would contend that they game is changing faster in that one decade than it did over Woody's whole tenure. But I wasn't alive then... so there might be some things I am missing.
Would definitely be a great subject for study, Steen, and I suspect you're right on the money. That philosophy, actually, is what prompted my initial observation that extrapolating Tress' winning percentage and BCS appearances from a 10-year tenure to a 30-year horizon is not necessarily a statistical certainty.
I completely agree about the 10 vs 30 yr extrapolation. But I think Tress would've made a good run at those numbers if the whole tatgate hadn't happened, and he had stayed another 12-15 years. As far as comparing the different eras, that's an impossibility. It's like asking who was better: Randy Johnson or Walter Johnson, Elvin Hayes or Tim Duncan, Johnny Unitas vs Joe Montana, Woody vs JT, etc... But numbers are numbers, and you can turn numbers into anything you want them to - that's what makes debates so fun. But when it's all said and done, 50, 100, 150 years from now, Woody Hayes will always be the face of Ohio State coaching.
I not only agree, I think that his trajectory would have carried him past Woody on paper in a relatively quick period of time. That decade was simply amazing.
JT and its not even close 8-1 vs TTUN, 5-8 in BCS bowl games, and a National Title.
Tress coached in 13 BCS games?
I think he intended to say Tressel won 5 out of 8 BCS games. I think.
9-1 baby, don't let the NCAA fool you. Tress was a beautiful man.
Don't talk to your friend anymore. He is either trolling you or an idiot. Either way, you're better off without him. I would borrow his lawnmower and then avoid him for as long as you can. Because it is winter he might even forget where his lawnmower is by the time he needs it. You'd be up one lawnmower and down one douche. That is +2 in relation to where you are now.
If your friend is stating Earl or Coop was better then I want you to run to a store buy this guy a helmet because he's one more deceased brain cell from forgetting how to breath through his mouth. Now if the argument includes Meyer and his one season at OSU it's at best laughable. If it includes Meyers entire body of work from BGSU, Utah and Florida plus his one year at OSU then he has a leg to stand on but it's apples and oranges. You may need to explain to him what apples and oranges are.
Fitzbuck
Toledo - Ohio's right armpit
"A troll by any other name is still a troll".
Tressel did enjoy an era where the Big 10 was probably the worst it's ever been. Penn State was average at best for all but 2 or 3 of the seasons Tressel coached. Wisconsin had a couple of decent teams. Michigan was really good for a few years of his tenure and historically bad for a couple of years.
I think Cooper had the best Ohio State teams during his entire tenure, but you can't erase Michigan from his resume. His teams in general were far more dominant in games against teams not named Michigan.
I disagree. From Tressels hiring through 2007, the Big Ten was plenty strong. Yes, 2008-2011, not so strong, but he had a good deal of success early on while the conference was still a powerhouse...
Cooper may have had plenty of very talented OSU teams, but he could not beat UM & no NC's...
The world is full of kings & queens who'll blind your eyes & steal your dreams - it's heaven & hell - Ronnie James Dio.
Part of the reason the conference looked weak was because the bucks were running through it like a hot knife through butter...
oh wait, we still are.
I would argue that some who discuss such things do so with their hearts and not always with their heads. Rationality and stats don't always come into play. For example, I grew up during the Cooper era. I was in 2nd grade when he was hired and was a sophomore in college when he was fired. Cooper's teams were the ones I watched every Saturday, would go see play in the Shoe, and his players were the ones that I pretended to be when I played football in the backyard. I was a Buckeye from birth, but these were the years that I fell in love with OSU football. Sure there was heartache and pain involved with Cooper's teams, particularly in certain games in late November and early January, but I still look back on those teams with heartfelt affection.
I'm not saying I think Cooper is a better coach than Tressel, just that nostalgia can sway one's opinion with such things.
Answer - Tressel.
The world is full of kings & queens who'll blind your eyes & steal your dreams - it's heaven & hell - Ronnie James Dio.
My vote is for Jim Tressel as well. Cooper and Bruce were outstanding coaches in their own right, but Tressel's accomplishments/record in the BCS era are arguably without peer. For me personally, it is his record vs. TTUN that sets him apart. To utterly dominate a legitimate rival in *any* sport/game (much less, *The Game*) to that degree is almost unheard of.
Tressel obviously wins out based on the results (NC, success over UM).
I also look at this..the vest was winning and in national championship discussions from year two in his tenure. I know he had a four loss squad in there, but tOSU was always BCS caliber for the most part under him.
Bruce nearly won it his first season, but never really broke through with another elite team afterwards. His teams were consistent, but never really elite imo.
Cooper needed six years to put together a title contender (10-1-1 '93 team) and another year to grab his first win over UM. His teams were damn good from 95-98, but I'll spare the details there.
Coop downplayed the game as well.....he said it was just another game. I can't get past that.
"Success - it's what you do with what you got" - Woody Hayes
Its Tressel and its not close.
coop= best recruiter
bruce= toughest situation
tress= best among the three
meyer= best in modern football including saban
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
Tressel #1, Woody #2, Bruce #3, Cooper #4, Fickell (don't leave out the Fickel!) #5
Frankly, no matter what our complaints were, Tressel did a pretty good job dominating the Big Ten in unprecedented fashion and made a big splash on the national stage. Though he was not perfect, it's hard to argue he didn't make OSU a national powerhouse again. Tressel's decade is arguably one of the best ever, let alone OSU.
Paul Brown #4
The question was "since Woody".
Tressel by a landslide imo
O'Deez330
stark county football
The Vest has no equal. I think that it's more than just the wins and losses. Jim Tressel understood "Ohio State Football" to a Woody Hayes level. He really got it. The Cooper era seemed to take some of the luster from the program. Tress washed and waxed it, and placed it back on the national stage where it belongs. Woody will always be the "soul" of the program, Bruce is my personal favorite, but Jim Tressel, IMO, was the best.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
BINGO: It's that mindset, that visceral understanding of the Ohio State ethos that made The Vest a giant among Buckeyes. The more I think about the ignominy with which he was handled in his final days, the madder I get.
Tressel for Senate!
(That spontaneous display of Vest affection was in no way political, 'cause we'd elect him by acclamation - there would be no campaigning, it would just happen.)
CajunBuckeye, that is exactly how I feel about those three coaches.
It's not even close. Best by a landslide. Tress drew a lot of hate, with that squeaky clean image. People enjoyed his fall.
Saw them all.
TRESSEL
^^ ^ that - saw them all as well - no contest
Not even an argument...I want the number of your friend's dealer
I say......Jim Tressel. Obviously I have great respect for the man from whom I take my 11W moniker, but seriously, its JT -- no contest.
We love Earle, but we would have him at the gallows in his 2nd season of 8-3. We had a lot of talent in the 80s too.
Double exclamations for JT !!
vacuuming sucks
Jim Tressel
WB
I still miss Tressel sometimes! :'( But the new is so much hotter!
Wherever you are, there you be!
Not even a question. Tress all the way.
I was born in '80, so I cannot speak to Woody Hayes, other than to say that I grew up with a father who revered him. There is no question that Tressel is the best coach of the post Woody era. The question is whether he is the best of all time. I was a teenager for most of the Cooper years, and I remember every single nightmare that took place on Saturday every single November. No matter how well Meyer does, it will be really, really tough to follow in Tressel's footsteps. There was no coach in all of football as underappreciated as Tressel.
Tressel!
Agreed. Tress #1
... But Coop knew how to recruit his arse off. He just couldn't get past the X's & O's and emotion of The Game. Remember Tress won his Championship with mainly Coop guys (save one freak freshman).
Imagine if Tress had coached those 1993, 1995, and 1996 teams that went in to The Game undefeated - and lost all three. Was it the #1 undefeated 98 team that lost to MSU? Trying to wash that one away ...
Trotwood-Madison. Once a Ram, Always a Ram.
98 by far was the best team Ohio State had. They would have beat the 02 team! And yes, that is the team that lost to a Saban led MSU. Damn you Plaxico Burress!
EDT: Sorry, the 98 team was by far the best team of the past 30 years.
I second that. God bless Craig Krenzel, but he's no Joe Germaine.
"Success - it's what you do with what you got" - Woody Hayes
Coach Hayes was at Ohio State for 28 years... and won 13 B1G titles and five national titles in that time. Tressel is/was a winner, but he had a long way to go before catching Woody Hayes. I know the original post excludes Woody in this debate, assigning him the top spot in this hypothetical scenario... but a few people have stated their belief that Tress ranks above Woody in the Ohio State coaching hierarchy. I can only assume these people are all well under the age of 45. I'm not knocking anyone's personal belief, nor their right to an opinion. Having said that, longevity and championships clearly determine the "winner" in any Woody Vs. Tressel argument. I admire Tressel greatly, and he MIGHT have gone on to reach Woody's status... except he didn't. Woody Hayes is THE standard by which all Ohio State football coaches are judged...
Tress
When all is said and done the HOLY TRINITY of Buckeye coach's will be.......
The Father - Woody
The Son - Urban
The Holy Ghost - Tress
"Because I couldn't go for 3"
Tress won by keeping it simple...in a college football world of high tech/ new offenses and crazy schemes. Tress won by playing checkers instead of chess....He had the other B1G coaches feeling like Chris Farley in Black Sheep: "It's kinda easy to win when you never move your back row, EVER!"
You don't have to be a genius to coach like he did, in fact not even very smart, but you better be able to motivate like crazy and stick to your basics no matter what, and that's what he did.
D. Anthony
Tressel definitely is #2 in my book behind Woody. The only way he drops is if Urban goes all Urban on the rest of the nation for the next 5+ years.
Class of 2010.
As a football coach his record speaks for itself at the top. However, as a person with character and integrity at the very bottom. Yes, he was a charitable person donating significant money to universities, charities, and other causes but money can't but you everything even a good name. I would be surprised if the OSU faithful was surprised with the controversies (Clarett, Holmes, Smith, Pryor) that swirled during Tressel's Ohio State reign because there is a long history of it. Growing up in Youngstown, there was always talk of inconsistencies, misgivings, and controversaries when Tressel was coach there. Ray Issac is the one that got the YSU in hot water and the program lost scholarships and cited for lack of control. It shouldn't be surprising as Tressel was close with Eddie DeBartolo and Micky Monus both of whom have had there share of ciminal activity.
Enough of the transgression, I have Woody and Paul Brown definitely ahead of Tressel and I think Ol' 9-3 Earle should be as well.
I have to agree that Tressel is the best in the modern era but i will assure you that Ohio State has got the Ticket with Urban Meyers. Urban Meyers will give Ohio State something that no other coach can and that is the ability to beat the SEC. Urban knows the SEC and has dominated the SEC before. I make my case for this at http://www.collegefootballnationalchampions.com.
College Football National Champions
friends dont let friends troll on tressel
The best post-Woody head coach is the current one.
Urban Warfare
If he has 3 NC by the end of his run, i'll agree.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Tress is allowed to just win 1, while Urban has to win 3 to pass him??
Urban Warfare
Maybe not three NCs in my book for Urbz to pass The Vest, but he's going to have to do more than one 12-0 season and two Top Five recruiting classes. I think it's certainly possible that a decade from now we're all basking in the glow of the greatest decade in Buckeye football history - hell, maybe even likely that we will - but to say today that Urban has surpassed Tressel as the greatest Ohio State head football coach since Woody Hayes is factually incorrect...
It's also ridiculous to compare the merits of a 10 year stretch here to 12 games. If you think that a 12-0 season is the high point of the Meyer era, you will be mistaken. My feeling stems from a friend of our family, who is employed by the Ohio State athletic department. She says that Tressel was extremely kind, his assistants were always cordial and happy, and there was a warm and fuzzy atmosphere.
Enter Urban. The warm and fuzzy feeling is replaced by cold and calculated. Assistants do not have the appearance of security and happiness, but urgency, worry, and drive. All aspects of the program are fully streamlined and state of the art. If we can win that much with Tressel, "just wait for Urban's run."
Urban Warfare
For me, yes.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Tressel posted a winless season and caused great shame to Buckeye fans.... the horrors of all the trolling when the NCAA came in.... oh boy.
I'll put Urban and Bruce ahead of JT, but Jim WAYYYY ahead of Cooper.
Sorry friend, I have to stop you there: Jim Tressel caused no shame to this Buckeye fan.
Did the man make some obviously (in hindsight, at least) bad choices? Yes, clearly. Did he shame our University and community at large? Hardly. Coach Tressel was a beacon for a solid decade, on and off the field, and I for one am proud to say I graduated from the same University that employed James Patrick Tressel.
While I certainly don't disagree with you that he had tremendous accomplishments on and off the field during his tenure, and while I put 90% of the blame on Pryor and company, JT simply failed to do what was a no brainer. While I don't think getting discounted tattoos is a big deal and am against rules branding students as ineligible for receiving such miniscule benefits, Jim had his job to do and simply didn't do it. That enough in my eyes, along with all the hate and embarrassment that came afterwards is enough for me to put Meyer and Bruce ahead of him.
But hey, that's not bad company to be with, but we should take nothing away from Bruce's accomplishments either. He was an outstanding coach for the Buckeyes too.
I agree
Tomorrow
It's Tressel. End of discussion. I think the masses agree.
Hey guys, I would be the friend in the post here. I expected the backlash, but let me say first of all I really don't know why everyone continues to ignore the fact that Tressel lied and then continued to lie to protect his image. The guy wasn't a saint. Also Tressel won a lot of games, he wasn't a bad coach, but he really wasn't a great coach when it came to x's and o's. I hate Tressel ball and I really think mismanaged his talent a lot of time. Tressel/walrus as an offensive coordinator was a joke. The one thing that could set him apart is obviously the nation championship and then there is his record against tsun, but look at the tsun teams he was going up against, several or which rich rod was the coach. There were no Charles Woodsons on those teams. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoying handing tsun their asses year after year, but lets face it the big ten declined a lot during the Tressel era and I think that padded his wins, he had some great athletes that could bail him out of games, but when he went up against equal talent we got blown out in two national championship games, lost to texas once, and twice to usc. I think we were headed for a 6 win season in 2011 with or without Tressel. I think what Meyer was able to do with Braxton and with the offensive line play goes to show how poor a job the Tressel staff had done. Don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for what Tressel has done for OSU but I just don't put him on the same pedestal as most other buckeye fans. I would say Meyer is already the best coach when you look at his resume and then what he has accomplished in just one year, but I would also say Tressel is definitely not far and away above Cooper or Bruce. I think it's pretty even but would take Cooper as my number 2 after Meyer.
Take it easy on him fellow Buckeye fans. PDogg is one of the most loyal and downright obsessed Buckeye fans I know so I have a ton of respect for him.
In this case though he is so wrong and so off base it's making my head spin. Jim Tressel, as it stands now is the best Buckeye coach post Woody Hayes, the numbers don't lie, the record doesn't lie, measuring wins and losses he is head and shoulders above Bruce and Coop.
Based solely off his record against scUM he is better.
I do think however Meyer could be better than Tressel if he is tenured as long.
Just a life long Buckeye fan wanting to talk to other lifelong Buckeye fans. Our honor defend, we will fight to the end for OOO HIIII OOOOOO!
PDOGG: your post is so flawed - I don't even know where to begin
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
How so? Really where do you think we would be now if Tressel was still our coach? After losing Pryor what do you think would have been different about the 6 win season? I know I'm in the minority on how I view Tressel, but all I can say is I think we will all agree that we are very glad to have Meyer as our head coach now.
It sounds to me like your view on Tressel's time at OSU is clouded by the fact that you are projecting your personal opinions about him and the NCAA scandal onto how you view him as a coach. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I get it. I still have some issues with what went down as well, but I don't think you can say Tressel is #2.
And I don't think you can put Urban #1 after just one season.
I am glad we have Meyer too. But, for one thing, if it weren't for the Tressel resignation, we wouldn't have Meyer. I just disagree with how you seem to marginilize all of JT's success, seemingly in part due to a "weak BIG". It almost seems like there's an ax to grind.
Nobody made more BCS Bowls. His winning % is elite. Record vs. TTUN is ridiculous. And the thing about him lying - I get it. But, if there's such a thing as a "good lie", it WAS to protect his players. He was loyal to a fault; he was this way with keeping Bollman too. Bollman's a great guy, but not a great coach. I understand the frustration with "Tresselball" at times, but it's hard to argue with it's overall success. And I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm of the belief the AD and co. knew more about those e-mails then people believe.
Maybe it's because I know the man and played for him awhile ago, so I take it personal in regards to Jim Tressel. But ask anybody who played for him or knows him - and 99.9% would defend him. We know how loyal he is. He was like a father to many of his players, (see Troy Smith). Jim Tressel was great for Ohio State. So is Urban Meyer. We are a blessed fanbase, fortunate to be here to witness this time in OSU history.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
You can't sit there and say that Tressel won because of a weak big ten but than applaud Meyer for winning in that same weak big ten. As far as I am concerned there will never be another Jim Tressel.
PDogg -- So I could make the argument that a big reason why the Big Ten became so "weak" while Tressel was there, is b/c Tressel's teams MADE it weak due to his immense success against them. He got just about EVERY good player in the midwest to come to Ohio State during his decade of dominance. That's not his fault.
Basically, your argument is ridiculous and, like someone else said, sounds like you never preferred him to begin with. So if you were never on board with him, then of course you aren't going to think he's the 2nd greatest OSU coach of all time. Oh, and from 2001-2006 those were some damn good scUM teams we faced; and he OWNED them.
I really wasn't trying to argue, I was just putting my opinion out there. I wouldn't say I never preferred him to begin with, I think he was great for the school and great for the program. Now I never liked the "Tressel ball" approach and I just don't think he is as elite a coach that everyone else seems to. No one has a problem blaming Bollman for how bad the offense and the offensive line looked most of the time, but they don't want to shift any of that blame at all on Tressel who, from what I know, was calling the plays. I don't expect to convince anyone, I get it, Cooper's last couple years were bad and Tressel came in and won a championship, I'm not trying to minimalize that, it was the greatest accomplishment of an OSU coach since Woody. I still don't think he is the best coach.
I agree Tresselball would drive me crazy sometimes..... but then you have to go back and look at the results. They speak for themselves. I don't need to remind you of the numbers.
It's crazy to think that you don't believe he's an elite coach. He won championships at Youngstown as well. What more did you want from him before labeling him elite?
This is just about the exact discussion point I've been making since this whole thing started.
Ohio State coaches success is predicated on wins, championships, games won vs. scUM, and bowl appearances/wins.
Tressel excelled in all of those areas and did well for the program. He recruited some all-time Ohio State football players, and though he left the program in a bad way, we are in the end better for it with Urban Meyer.
Tressel still deserves a lot more credit than my confused friend is willing to give him.
Just a life long Buckeye fan wanting to talk to other lifelong Buckeye fans. Our honor defend, we will fight to the end for OOO HIIII OOOOOO!
I will also say I am arguing that Tressel is the best tOSU coach since Woody Hayes, not that Urban Meyer is better than Tressel or vice versa. I think in terms of X's and O's, talent evaluation, and recruiting Meyer probably is a better coach, but in terms of all time tOSU coaches, he's not on Tressel's level yet, BUT again he gets an incomplete since it's only year two for him.
Just a life long Buckeye fan wanting to talk to other lifelong Buckeye fans. Our honor defend, we will fight to the end for OOO HIIII OOOOOO!
If Urban goes 26-0 is he better than Tress? That's worth considering because it could happen.
To me it's all about beating TTUN and NCs. If he continues to pound TTUN and win at least 2 NCs then you have to say yes.
I wasn't born a Buckeye but I became one as fast as I could.
HARLEYMANJAX just put it best, there is no way I can top that. Bravo ... bravo.
JT