Currently I am in the very early stages of a paper/article on disputed outcomes in both elections and sports. Specifically relating disputed elections to disputed wins. I think I will focus on football but may have stories from other sports. My primary idea is that Americans hate ties and demand winners and losers. Therefore, a win based on a technicality, or mistake, or cheating is better than no winner at all. Obviously, I need to shape this thing up a bit. I was hoping that some of you could suggest things for me to read/ provide your own thoughts. I will post a draft on the site, though it will probably be about 40 pages long.
Note: yes elections will be mentioned which are inherently political but that is where it ends. I will be writing more about the Whigs than current political parties (though Gore v Bush will be mentioned). So please don’t comment with republicans/democrats are cheaters type talk. I have plenty of info on disputed elections. I am looking for more on sports. However, if you can think of any clever ties between disputed elections and disputed wins mention them (provided they aren't political). Thanks.
One good source for some insight into the question of technicalities and "letting them play" is the 2011 book Scorecasting. Somewhat akin to Freakonomics (one of my favorite books), the early chapters discuss the concept of "swallowing the whistle" late in the game, especially in big games. Might provide some other food for thought.
Thanks, that is helpful. That is giving me some ideas. I could relate that idea to how historically courts are reluctant to get involved in disputed elections.
Thanks again Andy, I just order the book from Amazon. Haha if anyone is interested in reading about grand strategy and international law, let me know. I will have an article book out on that soon. (crickets)
Actually yes. What's the title? SSRN link?
The Ohio State University, College of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2006
The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Class of 2009
I co-authored a chapter with Nick Rostow in the American Bar Association Standing Committee on Law and National Security’s book, National Security Fifty Years of Transformation: An Anthology (my credit is in a lousy foot note but its a start). I have an electronic copy of the chapter that I could email you if you'd like.
Currently I am in the early stages of two related projects: a book with Nick Rostow on American grand strategy and international law, and an article on Palestinian grand strategy and international law. I should have a draft of the latter in a month. I would be happy to email it to you.
I'd love to read it. Send me a DM through the contact page.
The Ohio State University, College of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2006
The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Class of 2009
Biggest two I can think of are NFL - the tuck rule Raiders-Pats game and the Hochuli non-fumble Chargers-Broncos
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
Also Derek Fisher's turn and shoot with something like .4 seconds left vs the Spurs in the playoffs awhile back
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
What was disputed about that ending? That game was in San Antonio so there was no clock dispute that i can remember.
I believe it's physically impossible to catch and shoot in less than .7 seconds. Anything under that has to be a tip
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
yup. that.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
Defiantly a disputed game, 1972 Gold Medal Basketball Game Some Americans still feel cheated to this day but the article is clear that they were not and that the game was fair.
http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/the_game_nobody_remembers
Except the article is incorrect. The Americans were effectively screwed out of the game by R. William Jones, who did not have the right to correct the IOC officials or score-keepers even if he was FIBA president. Also the Soviets fouled on the inbounds play to win. There was a blatant push off by the Soviet that scored the game winning basket. However this is a great find for a disputed game.
Another heavily disputed game could be Maradona's Hand of God in the 1986 World Cup Quarterfinals against England, or the 1982 semi-final between France and West Germany when Harald Schumacher nearly killed Patrick Battiston.
I think you need to read the article more closely. It clearly explains that the Soviets only legitimate fair opportunity was the 3rd inbounds play. They just happened to score on it. If that Soviet can push with ball above his head the whole time, he was one special player.
Have you watched the game film before? Again the score-keepers made the mistake on the first two plays, but no one in the stadium was complaining except for R. William Jones, who ran to the scorers table and demanded that the score-keepers give the Soviets a third chance, which he did not have the authority to do. Also on the ensuing inbounds play, the Soviet that received the full-court inbounds pass, pushed off before he received the ball, allowing him to score the open layup.
I have watched the game several times on ESPN Classic along with clips of the final three seconds. Yes Jones had no say in putting three seconds back on the clock that decision belonged to the officials. But it was not the first time he did that. IN 1967 world championship he put more time on the clock in favor of AMerica. for the inbounds play which player are you saying got pushed? THe first American takes a bad angle and ends up behind the Soviet out of positiion. The other American lands offbalanced and falls down. How did the Soviet push either one? If anything he travelled with a slide step of the left foot. but he made an extremely athletic play to go up and get the ball in traffic
This game will be added and is giving me additional ideas. We refused to take the silver medals. They are still unclaimed. That the game was played against our rival in the cold war made losing in that fashion unacceptable. I don't know exactly where I want to go with that but I like where this is going. Please keep them coming.
One note, the games should include Americans unless it takes place elsewhere is in contrast to how you think Americans would react.
In that case USA-Germany 2002. We got jobbed on several calls in that game, and Kahn played the game of his life.
The immaculate reception with Franco Harris
The NFL Network's A Football Life on the Immaculate Reception was a pretty good episode, btw.
illinois vs Ohio State 2007.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf1sWfPa78Q
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
The refs were reprimanded after that game. I remember it well.
They were? I didn't know that.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
I wrote to Tim May concerning that game. The Big Ten did their best to hush up the investigation and the sanctions, but there was action taken. I don't know if that crew ever worked another game. There was something about the one ref having ties to some questionable characters in Chicago. Again, very hush hush. Tim May's inquiries were basically thwarted by the Big Ten.
Ironically, Little Animal mentioned that very game on Bishop & Rothman this afternoon.
Looked at 97.1 The Fan's youtube page, and only found their recent interview with Malcolm Jenkins. What did Laurinaitis say?
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
I can't remember the context of the discussion exactly, but he said something about that game and threw in an almost parenthetical comment, "They fumbled before they got to the endzone, of course, no, I'm not still bitter or anything, chuckle chuckle chuckle."
Here is a story about this incident
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2008/07/30/osufb30.ART_AR...
And another about the ref in question
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3162395
And this post. It seems the thing was kept hush hush. Funny that the guy was prohibited from working B1G games but there were no signs of impropriety
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2008/08/pamon-cleared-of-gambling-link.html
That game had a number of the worst holding non-calls I've ever seen. It got ridiculous once they knew it wasn't getting called... I know it happens alot, but I saw O-lineman tackling near the end of that game. It was the worst I've seen to date, IMO...
5th down
Also, since you are tying in elections why don't you add something about split national titles (1997, 2003*)? After all, the title winners are "elected".
For clarification, the fifth down game was Colorado-Nebraska in 1990.
A lot of good suggestions in this thread. This game isn't nearly as famous to today's college students as it was when it happened, but you absolutely HAVE TO mention the "pine tar game:"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Incident
And this is probably the most famous protested game in the history of American sports, though I suspect there are no more living witnesses to it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle%27s_Boner
I distinctly remember a game from the 1970s, when I was a kid living in San Antonio, where the ABA brass forced the last minute or so of one of the Spurs' games to be replayed, because a protest had been upheld. I can't find any reference to this online, though.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
Am I reading the name of that situation right? Merkle's Boner?
EDIT: If I am, anyone care to explain the name behind it?
It's just old-timey slang for "mistake." It was a then-colorful (and I guess still colorful) way to say "Merkle's mistake."
And to BuckeyeChuck: the fifth down game was Colorado-Missouri in 1990.
5th Down game was Colorado-Mizzou 1990.
Game 2 of the 2005 ALCS is of particular memory. Compunded by the insanity of the play was the fact that one of baseballs true villains (except to Sox fans) was front and center in the play.
That one game in the desert still stings some people from the Miami area too. A lot of people see OSU's national championship as tainted.
Hail or MMan can probably talk at length about the clock management game in East Lansing in 2001
The Fail Mary game this year in Seattle is the most recent example-and one of the more blatant misses.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Those same people ignore the pass interference that wasn't called near the end of regulation. If it had been called, Ohio State more than likely wins the game.
"YOLO" = I'm about to do something extremely ignorant/stupid & I need an excuse to do it.
Agreed, and that makes it a more interesting case study given the fact that had the PI flag not been thrown, OSU fans had a legit gripe that could have cost them the game as well. Was it Jenkins or Gamble that caught what could have been a game icing first down at the sidelines only to have the call go against OSU?
People want to say the refs gave that one to OSU, but OSU took it from the refs, in my humble opinion.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Yea the game should have been over before overtime but bc instant replay hadn't been established we could not review jenkins catch on a 3rd down play that would have extended ohio state's game clinching drive and there would have been no overtime but the official called the pass incomplete.....so we punt, they get a big return and what do you know game goes into overtime on a last second field goal......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Indianapolis_500
Not a game/election per se, but both college football and hockey have gotten rid of ties fairly recently. Also the uproar over the MLB all-star game tie was pretty big.
Also one could make the case that soccer hasn't caught on in part due to the number of ties.
That directly plays into what I want to write about. Americans demand a winner. Anymore thoughts along these lines, please share.
In response to RDUBS, I think that soccer has started to catch on especially with the >25 generation. For Citrus, maybe there is some sort of demographic shift between the under and over 25 generations as to the reason for the interest, or lack there of, in Soccer. I also think you could talk about playoffs, and the need for American sports to all have playoff systems as opposed to soccer around the world that rewards a whole season of work.
Useful, keep it coming. All these suggestions are linking into something. I appreciate everyone's comments.
Sorry, I'm in to soccer so many of my ideas include soccer. You could also talk about the fact that American sports all stick within a 1 game context for playoffs. That is, there is no 2 games that are equally weighted such as the Champions League. Instead American sports, other than golf, have all their contests set into one game segments and you must win 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 or 5 of 7 as opposed to two equally weighted games with tie breaking rules. Instead of saying, while you "lost" one game, but won the second by a bigger margin, American sports take the W or L as given as opposed to margin of victory, or where the points were scored. Also, while the sports take home field advantage into account, they do not provide any importance to winning on the road in the playoffs other than taking home field advantage from the other team.
Another thing I have noticed, American sports in general, like to complete every game at one time. When you see cricket matches go on for days, people get bored, and Baseball games keep going until the game is over that day.
Again sorry, I find the topic pretty interesting and the ability to possibly relate the need to win and the culture behind American sports and its ties to the culture at heart.
Don't be sorry. These comparisons are incredibly important. Yes Americans are winner take all. Just like elections! So what candidate x won by 3 million votes in Texas and 1 in Ohio but a win is a win. A win is a win. Might be on to something here.
Please, any other thoughts you have share!
I agree that soccer is more popular now than ever, but I guess I just meant that it is stuck well below football, baseball, and basketball in the US. Part of that has to do with skill level, but with the US on the rise the last few years with Confederations Cup Final and World Cup round of 16 it may be on the way up. Although they better raise their game to qualify for Brazil.
The one that really ticked me off beyond others was this one from the 1988 Olympics in Korea:
In a highly controversial 3–2 judge's decision, South Korean boxer Park Si-Hun defeated American Roy Jones, Jr., despite Jones pummeling Park for three rounds, landing 86 punches to Park's 32
Chief Wahoo McDaniel and Tommy "Wild-fire" Rich got completely jobbed against Ole Anderson and Mr. Wrestling ll, in a big NWA tag team match in '82.
Rich had Anderson pinned for way more than the required 3 count, but Mr. Wrestling ll, purposely distracted the ref while the pin was going on...by the time the ref turned around (after a good 4 seconds into the pin) Anderson was able to get his left shoulder off the mat. It was so frustrating that a pro ref could so easily get distracted multiple times a match.
D. Anthony
Since we're on pro-wrestling, I'd like to submit the Montreal Screw Job...
"Attack the Strong, Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead!"
-Former OSU S&C Coach Lichter
Excellent reference.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Harvard Beats Yale 29 - 29
Harvard mounts a stunning comeback, scoring 16 points in the final 42 seconds to tie the game and tie Yale for the season championship. Although the final score was tied, the miraculous comeback prompted the Harvard Crimson to proclaim in its headline, "Harvard beats Yale, 29-29".
I would think that soccer being the world's most popular sport, but not that high up in the professional realm in the U.S. would be a big point for you.
I believe that in Japan they still allow their baseball teams to tie and if I recall correctly, there are some people that celebrate that fact since no one loses.
I am in no way trying to push either political party, and this might be too modern for you, but I'd highly suggest this movie: Struggle about the 2004 election in Ohio.
For more info and to help spread the word: http://mentalrev.com/
I would also dispute any Ohio State lose ever!
I hope this helps and that your paper turns out well!
no way can say you don't push either party and suggest that movie.
Fair enough, I didn't give you the background and that I have personal ties to this movie. One of them is that a friend of mine's film made this film and that's just one of the personal reasons I "pushed" the film. I did not share my personal views on the parties as they don't exactly coincide with the film(nor are the very relevant). I think the film is really good regardless of my view and is also relevant to the paper that Citrus is writing. Roger is a pretty righteous guy and if the party's were filmed I'm sure he would have documented it that way and made the film with those facts, however it happened as it did and that's how he made the documentary. His political views and mine don't always match up, but it doesn't take way the quality of the film to me personally.
I was actually wondering if Citrus thought it was relevant and he could use it or if it wouldn't fit in with what he is doing.
I haven't watched it yet but will. I appreciate the info. Without watching, I will say many political parties have done shocking things (particularly 100+ years ago). Everything from a general running for governor forcing his troops to vote for him or get the whip to blatant fraud. The paper is more about how the public reacts to these problems and the resolution methods in place in contrast to disputed sports outcomes.
A little over half of the movie is more or less what happened and how there may have been election fraud. He does get in to the recall, protests in Ohio and D.C., a similar Ukraine election and how the people there reacted and even goes to a couple poling places in 2008 to show how they had changed. So there is definitely some public reactions in the film. I don't know if they'll fit what you need, but I hop they do. I'm hoping the Harvard vs. Yale game and/or the soccer info and/or the baseball info help as well.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I will certainly write about the 1984 Orange Bowl in which Nebraska went for 2 instead of kicking the extra point that would have tied the game and given a shared national title.
Bucks vs Sparty, 1974.
I just want to wish good luck to the OP. I'm very interested to read what conclusions, if any, can be drawn. I've long been fascinated by the seemingly-mostly-American notion that "there must be a winner." I, for one, don't have a problem with ties/draws, mostly because they are truthful. For the 40/48/60/90 minutes, the two teams were even. What more needs to be said? Why do we need some gimmick (which most overtime systems are) to somewhat randomly determine that one team was superior to the other, when in the agreed-upon time limit of the game that wasn't the case?
Regardless, I will be excited to read this if/when it gets posted.
Your points about overtime are interesting. I will post an early draft of this thing for everyone to ridicule. I will take the suggestions given in a peer review and your suggestions and complete a final draft which I will post.
From WAY WAY out in left field, I know its not American, and if you don't want to use it all up to you, but the 2002 figuring skating Olympics with the Canadians and Russians. Again, don't know if you're doing compare and contrast, or what the main theory behind your paper is, but here is the article for the controversy if you want.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/16/sports/olympics-figure-skating-canadia...
Oh, that was huge! Salé and Pelletier were one of my favorite pairs (let's face it, Jamie Salé is hot, hot hot) and that situation was a hot mess. It once again proved our in-born notion that you can never trust the French judge.
Yea I remember watching it, albeit when I was a little young, and thinking that they had the best routine I had seen and it wasn't even close.
The game clock malfunctions during last Tuesday's IU-MSU game got a coworker and me talking about times that similar clock malfunctions have decided the outcomes of games. Being an MSU alum, he cited an NCAA tourney game between MSU and Kansas in which the clock stopped and provided Kansas the opportunity to tie the score late in the game and then win it in overtime:
http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2009/03/michigan_statekansas_spa...
In 2009, a similar clock malfunction happened during a game between my alma mater, Xavier, and Butler. Very late in the game, the clock stopped a few seconds before Butler scored the go-ahead layup. The refs went to the monitor and determined that time would have run out, denying XU a chance to win the game.
"Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you."
No mention of "The Clock Game?" 2001 Michigan @ MSU. Led to a B1G-Appointed official controlling the game clocks going forward.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
The Ohio State Michigan State game 1974 one ref signaled time had run out but the other signaled that time was still on the clock when Corn green dived into the endzone. The game just ended though giving Michigan state the win imo a great example of just swallowing the whistle at the end of a game.
"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault."
--Jack Tatum
This isn't exactly on topic, but I also think it's interesting, particularly in the NBA, how those players that have reached celebrity status routinely get all the calls. In other words, as much as America loves its winners, it loves its superstars just as much.
Can't recall specific matches, but Olympic boxing has been synonymous with disputed results. And Olympic "judging" events in general are often shady.
Plus the Jeffrey Maier incident in the Yankees Orioles playoff game years back.
The same year of the Fifth Down game: Notre Dame - Colorado in the 1991 Orange Bowl. The Rockets TD was called back.
Nebraska - Mizzou football 1997. The "kicked ball" game.
The Cal-Stanford band game bc one of the laterals appeared to take place when the runner was down...... And bc the band covered the field.