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If you had to choose between Te'o and Shazier for one year who would you pick?
If he was not a golden domer then he would not be getting this kind of plug that is what is driving this.
If you've watched both you'll notice Te'o is more of a finished product at this point and less likely to be out of position, miss a tackle or make a mistake BUT Shazier is better than Te'o was in his 2nd year and he has a higher ceiling so I stick with Shazier.
D. Anthony
I'll take Shazier especially when you consider the challenges surrounding him on the field (Sabino missed time, Grant MIA, Boren moved from offense, freshmen PT).
Keep Calm and Ignore the Trolls.
The tackles for loss are what really strike me. I want a linebacker that can be disruptive and attack down hill
Ill take Teo RIGHT NOW. Ask me this question in 2 years though, could change.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Ill take Shazier RIGHT NOW. Ask me this question in 2 years though, won't change.
"Attack the Strong, Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead!"
-Former OSU S&C Coach Lichter
You mad brah?
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
No brah.
"Attack the Strong, Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead!"
-Former OSU S&C Coach Lichter
Cool brah
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
this exchange was awesome.... haha
Thanks brah
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Btw...just for the record...it's Bruh. At least that's what I see on tweets ;-)
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
Wouldn't that depend on your dialect?
me thinks they're going with the hawaiian version which is brah since Teo is from honolulu
All the games of the season are just practices for that glorious saturday in November when we get to jack Shoelace's invisible cereal bowl and drink our fill of delicious skunkweasel tears ...Michigan Still Sucks!!
What's wrong with "Bro?"
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
I'm not your "brah".
"I'm One Bad Buckeye, and I approve this message."
Te'o is a beast and I think will have a great career in the NFL. I also think Shazier is a monster but I dont think he will be as successful in the NFL but will still have a decent career.
Curious to hear your rationale as to why Shazier is decent as opposed to Teo's "great". Seems to me like the freak athletes (like Shazier) are the ones who are NFL studs -- see Von Miller and Clay Matthews
Shazier has a lot of play that he over pursues or misses tackles. He does make plays behind the line of scrimmage but I think Te'o is the more well rounded LB and is in the right position a majority of the time(why he has 7 INTs). Shazier is only a soph and has plenty of time to learn and get better so I would say my views will probably change in the next year or two. As of right now I think thats how it will go down.
Exactly Shazier is a sophomore and Teo is a senior that is a huge experience gap!
I'm willing to bet the exact opposite. Te'o will a be a serviceable / average MLB whereas RDS has the potential to make a few Pro Bowls along they way. A "beast" makes plays behind the line of scrimmage and forces fumbles, neither of which does Te'o do.
Shazier isn't like Matthews or Miller. He's more like AJ hawk in his days here.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Still find it confusing how Shazier isnt considered (by non-OSU fans) to be the best LB in the Big 10 and one of the elite few in the country
He's still prone to a lot of over-pursuing and missed tackles. He's improved a lot this year, but he doesn't pass the "look" test, like Te'o apparently does (haven't watched much ND this year). From the little bit I've seen of Te'o, he's hardly ever out of position and doesn't miss tackles. Granted, you could also make the arguement that Shazier extends himself trying to play more than his position, since the defense has so few athletes of his calibre.
Spot on.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
I'd say Shazier has much more "wow" factor than AJ Hawk ever did at Ohio State. In fact, I'd say Te'o is much more comparable to Hawk than Shazier.
Once Shazier becomes consistent and dependable in all situations (and based off his last 2, 3, 4 games of the season, I'd say he's basically there now), the sky is the limit for him. He still needs to put on a bit more bulk for the NFL, but the way he finds the ball and the power with which he hits makes him a more explosive defensive player.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
More of a wow factor? Hawk dominated and made plays for 3 years. Shazier just had his breakout year. I'd advise you to go back and rewatch some AJ clips.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Wow factor as in explosive defensive plays, exceptional athleticism for a linebacker, sacks, forced fumbles, big bone-jarring hits...
Hawk is one of the greatest LB's to ever suit up for Ohio State. That doesn't mean he made eye-popping plays all the time. Shazier has the "wow" factor to a degree where you expect him to knock somebody out on a tackle, or put a big hit on the QB. That comes with a risk/reward factor, and we've seen him whiff on some tackle attempts - which is exactly why A.J. Hawk is a much better overall LB than Shazier, at this point in Shazier's OSU career. Hawk didn't miss those tackles, and also made plays, but not necessarily like a heat-seeking missile we've seen out of RDS.
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
I find it confusing as well. He was easily the top 1-2 LB's in the Big Ten.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
T'eo had 7 interceptions, that is ridiculous for a linebacker and is the 2nd most in the country. He had a complete year where Shazier had a strong 2nd half. T'eo is a senior, Shazier is a sophmore so this shouldn't be a negative at all. Imagine Shazier for the next 2 years, it will be fun to watch.
Shazier is definitely a different player than aj hawk. Just the speed and athleticism alone make them different. Hawk is a more prototypical B1G lb. Big, strong, physical and fundamentally sound. Shazier is just raw...needs to learn to play under control. But definitely has the ability to be a disruptive force in the nfl along the lines of a von miller type. You can't coach his intensity or sheer athleticism though.
I've said this before, there are things stats do no measure at the LB position...both positive and negative. You cannot measure the leadership and confidence a player brings, which a lot of times elevates the rest of the defense. You cannot measure how a LB plugs a hole and forces the offensive player into the teeth of the defense. You cannot measure(well if you wanted you could) how many times a LB is double teamed leaving other players to make the tackle. The list goes on and these are all things that Te'o brings to the table. On the flip side, you cannot measure how many missed tackles a player has, how many times they overpursued a defender, were out of position in pass defense, etc....all things that Shazier is guilty of. If you take a LB right now...it's a no brainer that you take Te'o. In two years, if Shazier continues to develop, its a no brainer who has the higher ceiling/potential. Right now Te'o just has more experience and football smarts.
Shazier plays Will just like Hawk did here. He makes the same type of plays Hawk did as well..alot of tfl' and big plays. Both also have that quick twitch explosive 5 yard burst to the ball. Besides race and bulk they are very similar IMO.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
If my memory serves me correct, the only time hawk played the will was as a freshman. When wilhelm graduated, he moved to the middle. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure aj was a middle backer for the better part of his time at osu.
I think you have it backwards..he started as a MLB and finished at Will. Schlegal played MLB when Hawk was a senior.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
I love Shazier and am looking for a monster year from him next year. But let's be honest, he was as much a part of the problem (missed reads, missed assignments, missed tackles, overpursuit) with the defense earlier in the year as he was a part of the much-improved performances after the Indiana game.
I really think he turned the corner during the season and will end up being in the list of great Buckeye linebackers, but I don't think he's there yet.
I think T'eo was a better player during the season as a whole, but Shazier has more upside.
The problem I have with Te'o is, he's not the best linebacker in America. I think he's very good, and I don't think that looking at stats are the only way to judge 2 LB's. Instead of comparing him to Shazier and saying he doesn't deserve all these honors we need to compare Te'o to the actual beat LB in America. Jarvis Jones.
If one were to have been on the moon and missed college football this season and had no idea what happened this year but you came back and were saw film of how disruptive both guys were, as well as looked at their stats there's no way anyone would say Te'o is the Linebacker winning awards and being considered for Heisman. Jones was by far the best LB in America.
I agree.
Teo is the best MLB in the country though. Jarvis Jones is basically a pass rushing specialist. Shazier, Jones and Teo are pretty much all different kind of players.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Senior Shazier vs Senior Shazier: Shazier
Sophmore Shazier vs Sophmore Tao: Shazier
This years Shazier vs this years Tao: Tao
They are just at different level of polish, there are LBers out their with better stats thanm both of them. It isn't just about stats.
Here is my problem with the Te'o thing....
BuckeyeJason and Hodge are absolutely %100 correct in their assessment of Te'o. He is always in the right spot, always makes the tackle, and has played a near perfect season as a middle linebacker. He's making every tackle he should-which is what every middle linebacker in the country should be doing. Now, the 7 interceptions are an impressive feat as they've come at timely moments on national television so the people who analyze such things have him at the top of their mind whenever they put their eyes on an ND football game.
The Heisman is a flawed award because of the subjectivity of the word "Outstanding"-the elusive characteristic one must poses in order to win this award. Other than the INT's-what has Mani Te'o done to separate himself from the rest of his peers? A MLB capable of picking off 7 passes should conceivably have more impact plays under his belt and Te'o simply lacks them. Shazier and Jones were better pass rushers, Shazier found the ball carrier behind the line of scrimmage way more, Shazier deflected more passes in coverage-though I won't argue much here as Shazier was lost quite a bit at times, that will come with age.
I'm not going to make a case for Shazier for Heisman at all-though his snub from All Big Ten is a travesty-but I do take offense to this notion that Te'o deserves Heisman consideration when Klein and Manziel have had absolutely spectacular years.
My question hinges on expectations. Middle Linebackers are expected to be in position and make tackles, Quarterbacks are expected to throw the football and score points. Of the three players going to NY, which one exceeded expectations the most? If this year's Heisman is anyone but Manziel, I will proclaim shenanigans. Loudly.
4-6 seconds from point A to point B and when you get to point B, be pissed off
Good post.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
National Media needed to find a face for a lost program over the past couple decades.
Someone who has a story people can attach too (Girlfriend passing away from leukemia) and that has an attention grabbing name.
With the stats he accumulated in 2012, in no way merits Heisman contention when there is another athlete in Ryan Shazier who is statistically better with an inferior supporting cast on Defense with a 12-0 record.
But ESPN loves them some ND and catchy athletes names like Manti Te'o
Not that I feel Te'o deserves the Heisman, but this point has been made MANY times...stats alone do not measure the worth of a LB nor is it a good way to compare LB's to each other. Also...ESPN does not pick the Heisman winner.
No, they don't pick the winner, but they do drive the hype machine. If all you see is player "X" on sportscenter then that player has more name recognition. People I know who don't watch sports at all know Johnny Football and Manti Teo. The more hyped someone is the more people will know them. Most people in this world are lemmings, just looking for someone/thing to follow.
See Tebow, Timothy.
Stats are not the be-all, end-all; but to say they are not a good means for comparison... I must disagree. Stats are facts. Sure, there are nuances and immeasurables that are not accounted for but raw numbers do paint at least part of the picture. In this case, the numbers are congruent with what my eyes also tell me... Te'o is a solid LB who is making the most of his abilities. I think he's a second round draft pick and will be a good run stopper and make the tackles when the defense designs him to. But he is not disruptive in the way an elite LB must be. RDS blows plays up and does it behind the line of scrimmage. I'd take him now over Te'o and in two years it won't even be close. In short, RDS will win you games whereas Te'o won't lbe the reason you lose games.
So lets say Shazier has 2 TFLs but blows two assignments in coverage that lead to TD's and misses a tackle that leads to a key 3rd down conversion...this is why stats in some positions need to be taken with a grain of salt. You can easily have a LB that is disruptive and has a lot of sacks, but is also a liablity in coverage and open field tackling. Highlight plays don't win games on defense nearly as much as steady consistency does.
On a side note...some ppl are looking too hard into sacks and TFLs(in many cases is depends on the scheme they play and what that LBs role is). Some of the great LB's of this generation are not known as sack machines...yet are still considered feared and disruptive.
Who's doing the graphics over at Landgrant? Loved the presentation.
I haven't seen enough of Te'o to know who's better really...
Te'o reminds me a lot of James Laurinaitis. Little animal was always in on plays and always in the right spot but usually seemd to be making tackles a couple yards down field. A quick glance at Laurinaitis' stats from his 3 productive years for the bucks showed he averaged about 4.5 sacks per years and 8 tackles for loss. Not bad numbers, especially when you consider his total tackles (avg ~120) but not the sorts of numbers we saw from Shazier this year either.
If I had to pick one today it'd be Te'o, he's a solid (NFL ready) linebacker and the team leader no question.
Shazier is a solid linebacker with the potential to be great and we saw that a lot this year from him.
Ask me the same question next fall and I'd more than likely be willing to grab a Delorian and come back in time to right now (1:22pm on 12/4/12) and slap myself for picking Te'o.
JT
Where we're going, we don't need roads
For those who are simply looking at tackles comparison: of the top 10 defenses in the country, Te'o was the second leading tackler behind a guy from LSU. If your defense is good it isn't on the field very often and so you don't have many opportunities to make tackles.
I am not saying Te'o deserves the Heisman (I would vote for Lee), but just food for thought.
Somebody should take the time to calculate a "tackles per play" statistic
It's like when Philip Rivers wasn't getting nearly the love Eli Manning was in college despite having superior numbers across the board.
Very good point...
Things haven't changed for Eli Manning....he still gets all the love despite an 80 something QB rating....it's because he plays for New York and his team happen to win two Superbowls. This is one of the biggest reasons I can't stand New York fans. Nothing but love for the city, nothing but nausia for the fans.
"I'm One Bad Buckeye, and I approve this message."