Eleven Warriors

I hate to see them go but....Marcus Lattimore.  I will enjoy watching them on Sunday.

[edit] Then again, Roby is the one dishing the hits, not taking them.  Another year could put him in the top 5 instead of the mid 20's.

Roby, IMO, if he leaves, will be Derek Ross part 2.  Minus the drug problems.

  One more year to master his craft is what he needs.

Want them both back obviously, buy wish them well if they go, and can't fault their decisions to go pro. A window like that is only open for so long, and like you guys said, only one injury away from the dream being over. Just hope they make the best decision for themselves and succeed. They'll always have a place here and will be buckeyes forever!(and as of now, they haven't left yet!)

Geno Smith is going to set any franchise back 5 years.

Oh, say it isn't so! I always hope that the players stay, but I'm a realist. I hope New Orleans drafts both of them!!

I hope they stay another year, especially Roby. But, if he does come out, crossing my fingers that the Steelers draft him. Dick LeBeau loves to bring former Buckeyes into the fold Defensively.

Big Hank goes. Roby stays. He needs another year, as do we.  Don't underestimate the lack of postseason and the opportunity these kids get by staying one more year. 

My guess is they both stay. I think it's what's best for Roby, especially since he is only a sophomore. Not a whole lot of guys that come out after only two years really pan out from what it seems, but hey, Larry Fitzgerald did. As for Hankins, while it's pretty much a toss up whether staying would help or hurt, it seems like he really loves being here and wants to come back for a possible championship. Plus, I think D-Line guys are less succeptible to the huge rise and fall of draft stock, especially a guy as good as Hank. I'd love to have him back on what will most likely be a solid line anyway.

Btalbert, Hankins was projected to go number 1 overall by CBS earlier this year. Pretty much every projection I've seen has him as a Top 10 lock, and going as either the 1st or 2nd DT off the board, with the kid from Utah being the other Top 10 DT.

There just seems to be some special chemistry with this team.  I could see them both staying to try and be a part of something really special next season.  I guess we won't know till the draft.

Big Hank is definitely gone. Roby... I'm unsure. I think that he knows he still hasn't perfected his craft. But there has been talk from Coombs about Roby sometimes feeling "bored" and wanting more of a challenge. So if Roby thinks he can grab that first round money now he may do it. He definitely won't be an immediate impact CB, though. He needs a little more time for that. But it's certainly possible an NFL team like New England takes him late first round knowing that he is a project. And I think if that's the case he will do it.

I just have a feeling that Hank stays.  I have no information for this, but I just have something in my gut.  Hopefully he reads my post and agrees haha

The thing about Roby is if he stays for another year, he has the chance to be the top corner in next year's draft.  The top 1 or 2 corners in each draft tend to rise up the draft boards more than a lot of other positions, because it is so hard to find a lock-down cover corner.

This year, he's probably the 4th or 5th best corner prospect, at best.  The difference between #1/2 corner versus 4/5/6 is huge in terms of where you are selected and initial contract money.

True, top ten money isn't the same as it used to be, but if you are a top 2 corner on the board and you are selected top 10-15, it is still substantially more than what you'll get if you're the number 5 or 6 CB, and you're picked in the second round...

Hank is a "Big Board" Top 10 talent, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will be picked in the top 10. Because traditionally skill positions, in particular CB and QB, are overvalued and taken higher than they are rated because they are the hardest talents to come by at the NFL level. However, recently more D Linemen have been taken higher. So all in it would be hard to say where he would go, but it would certainly be in the first 15-20 picks. As everyone has pointed out, its hard to say no when you're already a consensus 1st rounder but thanks to the new CBA rookie money is not what it used to be especially when you get outside of the top 10. So now there is some real monetary incentive to trying to get into the top 10 overall, which both Hank and Roby could easily do by returning. Either way it will be a difficult decision for both. With the potential for next season and the excitement behind the program ultimately my guess (hope) is that that both come back for one more year!

Hmmm look who's name ISN'T on that top 50 list....

Waaaaaa? Nooooooo I would never.....

How does an FSU team with 4 players on that list lose to NC State?  Absurd.

Because its not basketball Zachofalltrades. You need more than 4 good players to be a great team. Look at UNC..they seem to have at least 2 first rounders projected every year but can't win the ACC..ever.

**Shakes Fist at William**

Speaking of NCState, they sent three players in the first round of the 2006 draft-Mario Williams, Manny Lawson, and John McCargo and they were a 7-5 team. Happens quite a bit when schools, specifically units from one team send a handfull of dudes high in the draft but performed above average at best during the season.

Not again Squirrel. My point has been missed 100 times and you just did it again. He can, the same way technically I can be drafted if I declared myself eligible, be a first rounder. Anything CAN happen. I'm saying 1) He won't because I have faith in 32 GM's to not reach THAT far on a tweener and 2) Shouldn't be.

I'm saying he SHOULDN'T be. And this list is the first of several you will see that say the same thing. 10 weeks into the year, he's not projecting as a first rounder. At this point the combine will only get him into a higher round, not in the first.

That list also isn't projecting the first 2 rounds, it just lists the top 50 prospects, Short at 33 is about right but should end up in the first round because teams will take him as the, say, 5th best DT ahead of other guys ahead of him on the list if said team doesn't need an LB or WR or something higher than Short, to use your analogy.

Again, I'll be as clear as possible. ANYTHING can happen. John Simon, just like Jack Mehwort or some equally undeserving player can end up being picked in the first round. The list of reaches and bad first round picks is long and distinguished. John Simon should not be picked in the first round, I'm not sure how much more I can say at this point.

The Browns drafted a LB in the 1st round named Mike Junkin in 1987 out of Duke.  He was picked #5 overall and the Browns claimed he was like a "Wild Dog in a Meat Market".  Junkin played less than 2 full years....actually dressed for only 20 NFL games and the shortness of his career wasn't due to injury.

Yeah NFL teams can do some wild things on draft day.

When the Browns are in the first round, anything can happen, just ask Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, William Green and Courtney Brown.

The Raiders and Bengals also give Simon hope for 1st round draft ability.

Well now that's not quite the same. Quinn, Green, and Brown weren't surprise first rounders the way Simon would be. Monumental busts, sure, but 31 other teams would have taken Brown out of college, the Browns just happened to be the ones who did. Weeden is out performing expectations, and might be a reach that should work out just fine for Cleveland.

Who is a better defensive end, Julius Peppers or Charles Johnson? Peppers has 14 tackles this year and 5 sacks while Johnson has 26 and 7.5 sacks. There isn't an NFL fan in their right mind that wouldn't take Pep over Johnson. Just because the guy doesn't have eye popping stats doesn't mean he isn't a better player. Gholston is seeing double and triple teams each and every play and is being held about %90 of the time. He's still having a better year than Simon. Ghloston is VERY Peppers like in that as he goes so does the MSU defense (Bears in Julius' case). A lot of what MSU can do with their other ten is because Gholston demands so much attention-that isn't the case with Simon as teams are running at him, gettng him in space on screens and forcing him to over commit and miss tackles. He isn't a great player. He works really hard but isn't the type of natural athlete Gholston is.

This is unreal. Its been a year and my point has either been missed (shame on me) or not acknowledged (shame on you).

Can and Should are two different things.

Its easy to make fun of Cleveland for their poor draft record but at the time, Quinn really was the right move for them. It just didn't work out. He wasn't a stretch, especially where they got him.

Brewster, I have acknowledged how you feel about Simon. You just don't get that not everyone feels the way you do about him and that your argument that Simon doesn't belong in the first round is your opinion. My opinion is that he will get drafted earlier than what some might project because of the intangibles that he possesses, whether you believe he has them or not. They are there. Go ask Urban if you want. The guy for some reason believes a lot of what I say.

I still wouldn't take Gholston over Simon ever! Gholston has the body but he has no game. You say double and triple teams. I say lack of motivation and skill! Even his lesser cousin with double teams still got his. Why is Gholston not making a bigger impact on the game?

There is a lot more to these guys that physical attributes. Simon may not have the body type some of the DE's you talk about but he still gets his! Plus I have seen double teams on Simon and I have seen offenses avoid his side of the field for large portions of the game.

I see that.

Oh he has intangibles. He's a captain of the team for a reason. He's a good collegiate football player. He doesn't have an NFL build or skill set and at the end of the day, teams draft on skill (things that can be measured) not intangibles (those that can't be measured). William Gholston, Mingo, Lutui, Hankins-those are NFL football players. Of those 4, its not tough to assume 3 of them won't live up to their hype but that's what comes with being a first round pick. Simon will never be labled a bust because no one really considers late round picks busts.

What do you know about Gholston and some perceived lack of motivation he supposedly has? He's a two year starter who has been doubled almost every time he sees the field. Gholston has more tackles, TFL's and one less sack so he's...um...ya he's getting his. What are you talking about?

I will ask you one question, simple yes or no.

Is John Simon one of the 32 best players in college football right now?

I have seen many players getting double teamed and still get stats who has gholstons physique. You don't think Jarvis Jones and Jadeveon Clowney don't get double teamed a lot? Gholston doesn't make the impact he can because he doesn't have the skill set nor the motivation. Even his profile says he doesn't possess the skill to disengage from blockers and has very few moves. All he does it punch players and steps on people. That is a bad attitude and it will be worst in the NFL. Also, Gholston was not on that list either.

Never compared him to Star or Hankins! They have the body and they get it done. They have the intangibles too. Compared to guys who are in the second tier, yes Simon does belong!

You are telling me Brew that no team ever in the entire NFL draft process has drafted a player who did not fit the mold? Seriously you are saying that? and I am not saying Simon will be drafted because all he has are intangibles. He does have some skill. If he didn't, why in the hell is he starting on our beloved buckeyes? You think Urban is calling him the leader and having him as a starting DE because of just his intangibles? The way you talk its as if Simon has no ability to play the position at all.

"Yes I think he is a top 32 player that will be eligible for the draft"

-I won't budge you from that stance, you certainly won't budge me from mine. I did mean to qualify it with "Draft Eligible".

The comparison I drew to Peppers is from first hand experience watching him play in Chicago over the last few years. This year especially is his best season, despite it being statistically the worst one he will probably have in his entire career. The reason I compared the two is because despite the lack of eye popping stats, Peppers is the sole reason the rest of the Bears D has been so good. Briggs and a crippled Urlacher can move freely in space, DT Henry Melton is quick enough to beat single team blocks, and that allows the rest of the line the ability to rush QB's which has paid dividends for Charles Tillman and specifically Tim Jennings. It all stems from Peppers, the Bears are the leagues best D because he's the linchpin that holds it all together. Similarly, despite having a pretty bad year as a team, Sparty's D is the best in the conference and among one of the top units nationally. Despite having the Clowney or Mingo like numbers (make no mistake about it, Gholston is still 'getting his' as you put-more so than Simon), The Spartan defense is built largely on what Gholston does for them. His ability to command a Tackle\Guard or Tackle\Tight end combo block on almost every play is what has allowed Michigan State's other players to make plays freely, or with minimal resistance to opposing offense. That's what I'm referring to. An elite defensive player like Peppers can affect opposing teams without always making the play and that's what Gholston IS doing for Michigan State and what Simon ISN'T doing for Ohio State. At this point, Wisconsin and Michigan will be worried more about #1, #52, and #10. They'll want to block Simon, sure-but he isn't a guy you gameplan against.

Gholston is that for MSU.

You also have me wrong. I'm not saying Simon isn't good but in the pecking order, he's the fourth most important player on this defense, at the very least. He's simply not affecting games like we thought he would this year and he isn't taking advantage of being the second or even third guy on the totem pole in terms of who offenses care about on the D Line. Hankins is the key that makes it go, and he's getting the attention he deserves. That leaves single teams for Simon and Williams and neither has really cashed in.

Simon's a good collegiate player. Not an NFL player.

Gholston has 16 more tackles and 3.5 more TFL's while notching 1 less sack, he's also batted down 7 passes. That's more than a little. MSU has the 20th best run D in the nation and of the 19 teams ahead of them, only 2 of them have played as many games as MSU thus far. Swing and a miss dude, MSU's run D is stout.

Simon WAS doubled teamed earlier in the year and that's no longer the case. Not as often as Gholston.

I'm not saying Gholston is as good as Peppers-in typical form you are putting words into my mouth. I'm saying Peppers role on the Bears-impact player despite impact stats is the same as Gholston's on the Spartans-Impact player despite impact stats-though Gholston is actually having a decent year statisitically in addition to drawing more attention.

And there is no talk of Gholston leaving early. I'd be shocked if he does. He is immature. I'm not saying Simon isn't a better kid. But if you want potential, Gholston has it by the bucket and if he matures-and he does need to-he will be a top pick. I'd bet he stays another year. If he does go now, the draft is so deep at end and tackle that he'll fall out of the first but I guran-damn-tee he's picked well ahead of Simon.

Squirrel let it go man. Brewster is 100% right in the fact that John Simon does not have a position in the NFL. He is a tweener who is not having a monster year and that equates to later round draft picks. If Simon is picked before the 3rd or 4th round I will be shocked.

And Gholston has more NFL potential than Simon. Key word being potential.

I love John Simon, but I think as fans we often tend to overvalue our own players.  I think Simon has not been near 100% all year, and am hoping with the week off we will see more production from him in the last 2 games.

I have to agree with Brewster that Gholston will go higher in the draft, based on his upside, but I would be thrilled to have John Simon on my team (Browns), but only with a middle round pick (not sure I want Gholston at all, think his motor is faulty).  Now it could happen that some GM or coach falls in love with Simon at the combine, and I think his stock will rise afterward.  But I don't see him going in the first 2 days of the draft in any case.  Hope he proves me wrong and Squirrel right.

Simon has been consistent. Each and every game he has been right there, doing exactly as he is asked to do.

Doesn't get double anymore huh? Take a look at the most recent Ross Fulton breakdown. In the 7 plays he shows, in the very first play, he was chipped by TE, then stacked by a OL and FB. He also is very good at playing his assignment. I have never seen Simon blow an assignment.

Plus I will let Ross say this next line: "Simon was disruptive all day as a pass rusher from both positions."

Oh ok, words in my mouth again.

I've said numerous times today John Simon is a good player. He hasn't been great this year because he's been inconsistent. He has missed plays. Everyone on this under performing defense has. I'm sorry but this D hasn't been great and the blame should start with the captain and leader of this defense-John Simon.

You keep using single examples. I get it. He's been double teamed. I'm saying it isn't with the regularity Mingo, Hankins, Gholston, Lutui, or any other referenced player in this conversation has.

Give it up man.

I'll say it for you Squirrel-William Gholston is an immature player. His upside can be over shadowed by the negatives in his game. But the right coaching can fix his attitude. Guys can develop what Gholston lacks. Guys can not develop what Simon lacks. He can not be made that much faster, or stronger, or more athletic. I'll take the guy who needs his head fixed. Not the guy who needs more athleticism and talent. Veteran players and the right coaches can get a players mind right. That's certainly what Gholston needs. No one can make John Simon any quicker or more athletic.

HAHA I did didn't I? Upvote for the spot, John.

Stop. Just stop. I'm not saying Gholston is as good as Peppers. You don't have an argument so you twist mine to argue against what you think I'm saying.

Terelle Suggs. Ever heard of him? Immensley talented out of college and his maturity (and miserable 40 time)  knocked him out of a top 3 pick. He landed in an organization that had no time for shit like his and he grew up real fast. Now before you take what I'm saying as "OMG NOW SUGGS AND GHOLSTON ARE THE SAME", I'm saying that plenty of guys mature. Randy Moss did in New England and broke an NFL record when his head was set straight. (no I'm not saying Gholston is as good as Randy Moss so don't twist my words). Jason Pierre Paul had concerns about his maturity and he landed in another veteran, well coached organization and is an absolutle terror now that mind\body have synched (again, not saying Gholston is as talented as JPP so don't accuse me).

And of course there are your Alonzo Spellman's, JP Lossman's, and plenty of guys who needed to mature and didn't. But it does happen. If Gholston matures, he already has the tools needed to dominate. Simon lacks what can not be improved upon.

Is this thread still going on? Man, and it's not even about Herbie or Alex Anzalone. 

Oh my God, you have to be joking now. I'm not comparing them as individual players. I'm not saying Gholston is as good as any of them. I'm saying that their scenarios are similar. I can not believe that you are so far away from what I'm actually saying. I'm literally dumbfounded right now at just how off you are. You have, time and time again, taken what I've said, twisted it to mean what you need it to in order to argue against it, and then went and argued against it. The point I'm making is that guys mature, you failed (AGAIN) to see it.

HAHA. I was upvoting most of what you said. I missed a few long the way. Enjoy the game.

Jackass :D

anyone think this thread has turned into the 11W version of this:

Staring Brewstersmillions vs SquirrelMaster?

To be decided late April 2013!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!