More realignment in College football

By osuforlife -28 November 2012
49 Comments
- Football

A friend of mind who lives in Acc told me this North Carolina and Virginia could be headed to the Big Ten and that NC State and Virginia Tech could leave for the SEC...

Bolt on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:19pm #

My friend in Europe told me Germany would join the Big Ten.

Deshaun on 28 Nov 2012 - 5:31pm #

How's their football team?

BuckeyeSki on 28 Nov 2012 - 5:51pm #

Team Motto is Blitzkrieg!

If Denard Robinson isn't careful with spooning all that food into his mouth, he's going to end up lookin' like Whoopi Goldberg

Bolt on 28 Nov 2012 - 6:38pm #

...define football...

Deshaun on 28 Nov 2012 - 6:57pm #

Ha! While it would be fun to see Bastian Schweinsteiger, Thomas Muller, and Mario Gomez dominating the pitch (although there would likely be some amateurism issues), I was referring to american-rules football. Well done, Bolt.

TheBadOwl on 29 Nov 2012 - 3:40pm #

FC Bayern is absurdly good. Not sure how their academics fit into the conference, though. :P

I wouldn't cheer for Michigan if they were playing the Taliban.

Conroy on 28 Nov 2012 - 7:29pm #

They would have at least one NFL caliber defensive end.

Riggins on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:30pm #

That rumor has been thrown around before. If you look at population and demographics, the states of North Carolina and Virginia rank in the top 10 in terms of projected growth. Both the B1G and SEC would like to get into these areas.

rdubs on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:31pm #

North Carolina came out yesterday and said they weren't going anywhere.

703Buckeye on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:33pm #

UVA did as well.

"Attack the Strong, Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead!"
-Former OSU S&C Coach Lichter

theDuke on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:41pm #

they also had a whole football team of Dean's List students... heheehee

in all seriousness, i like UNC. I would definitely welcome them to the B1G if they wanted in, but NEWSFLASH!- I'm not the guy that gets to make the calls. SHOCKER!

theDuke

Deshaun on 28 Nov 2012 - 5:49pm #

School presidents/chancellors and conference commissioners are the ones who make these decisions. Those presidents and chancellors are interested in the over $7.5 Billion (that's with a "B", not an "M") in academic research money the CIC controls. By comparison, the ACC (with Pitt, Syracuse, and UMd) controls less than $5 Billion. There are numerous other factors, but if Delaney asked, they would listen.

jestertcf on 28 Nov 2012 - 6:40pm #

because no one wants their dumpster fire of NCAA sanctions that may be on the horizon?

~Because we couldn't go for three~

703Buckeye on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:32pm #

OSUFORLIFE: I don't know enough about you and nothing about your "friend" and this rumor is unsubstantiated in general. I'll hold off on speculating.

"Attack the Strong, Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead!"
-Former OSU S&C Coach Lichter

MediBuck on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:34pm #

Someone lives in ACC? I think you misspoke there.

I'm with you that the B1G didn't simply add Maryland and Rutgers to reach 14 teams. No doubt Jim Delaney intends to go after two more, likely ND and UNC or UVA. The only other footprint we'd want is Texas, and unfortunately the UTs come as a package deal.

As for the SEC, I don't disagree that VaTech has been a commodity for them for quite a while, but NC State is a bit of a stretch since the VT add would bring the DC/Atlantic TV market for them anyway. Otherwise, I can't say there's any other team in the ACC or Big XII that would be a target for the SEC, so I think they stay put at 14 teams.

"There is a force that makes us all brothers, no one goes his way alone." --Woody Hayes

osubuck57 on 28 Nov 2012 - 3:39pm #

Preety sure Notre Dame isn't going anywhere anytime soon.They get 12 million a year to telivise all their football games.That's why they stay independent,in football!!Big ten has already asked twice that I know of and been shot down.Pretty sure a third time would not be the charm.

SCOTTC.

Alhan on 28 Nov 2012 - 5:50pm #

$12M/year is next to nothing compared to what the B1G schools are getting.

From this article:

One estimate has each Big Ten school getting at least $43 million a year after 2017, up from roughly $24 million now.

That is a pretty hefty difference than what ND is getting (provided the $12M/yr amount is correct...taking you at your word).

You can kill a fly with your slipper or a cannon. Either way, the fly dies. -Ramzy

IBLEEDSCARLETANDGRAY on 28 Nov 2012 - 5:45pm #

Each time I read of new conference realignment I start hoping it ends there. But that hope keeps getting dashed. I dont want to see anyone else join the B1G because unless its a football/basketball/all sports power (Notre Dame) its going to do nothing but further dilute the conference.

A friend of mine suggested OSU and TTUN should go independent. That'd be the only way we can guarantee The Game continues. I laughed at it at first, but it does have some merit, especially considering how watered down the B1G is becoming. Imagine how bad its going to be if the expansion isn't finished?

"Sherman ran an option play right through the south" - Greatest.Civil.War.Analogy.Ever

cplunk on 28 Nov 2012 - 7:18pm #

Probably never going to happen.

i've long thought though that OSU and TSUN should put in a call to Oklahoma, Nebraska, Texas, Notre Dame, Alabama, LSU, Florida State, and USC and talk about what other 22 teams to invite into a 32 team, 4 division conference. Tell the NCAA that they can accept that 32 team conference as the new top division, with four conferences of 8 and a playoff among the division champs, or those 10 teams would leave the NCAA.

Joshy614 on 28 Nov 2012 - 5:53pm #

OSUFORLIFE - I dig your posts, brother...keep them coming

with all of this realignment, college football is going to need a great chiropracter

Deshaun on 28 Nov 2012 - 6:14pm #

North Carolina and Virginia should have been our first preference. They would have been great additions, but that was before chaining ourselves to the anchor that is Rutgers. Taking two mid-atlantic region schools out of UNC, UVa, UMd, maaaybe Ga Tech would get the Big Ten in well-populated states growing at 18.5%, 13.0%, 9.0%, and 18.3%, respectively (based on % growth from 2000 census to 2010 census). How quickly are New York and New Jersey growing? 2.1% and 4.5%, respectively. The population may be shifting (although it is largely overblown in the media), but it isn't shifting to NYC. We needed to get a combination of two from UNC, UVa, and UMd. Rutgers should never have been considered an option, even as a last resort. The other two spots have to go to nothing but home run additions. If our conference consists of the current 12 plus UMd, Rutgers, UVa, and UNC, we will have assured ourselves of 2 things:
1) The Big Ten WILL be one of the 4 surviving major conferences.
2) The Big Ten will NEVER be the #1 conference (in football or overall athletics)
Therefore, in my opinion, we will have lost conference expansion.

cplunk on 28 Nov 2012 - 7:25pm #

Rutgers is an anchor?

1) they are currently ranked higher than most the big ten

2) they qualify as a NYC anchor for BTN dollar purposes, meaning we make nine times as much from the largest media market in the country as we do without them

3) the largest college football fan bases in NY are Notre Dame, TSUN, PSU, MD, Rutgers, and Syracuse, meaning that having four of those six is a ton of leverage for additional money in that market. It also let's ND know the BTN can, thanks to that combo, give them more money than their own current deal

Fact is that Rutgers football team is already better than at least half the B1G and they bring more money to the B1G than everybody but the big boys (OSU, TSUN, PSU, and thanks to Chicago, Illinois).

Theyre hardly an anchor.

Deshaun on 29 Nov 2012 - 1:13pm #

Rutgers has one of the worst football programs in the history of college football. They are ranked the #101st best program in ESPN's prestige rankings, just behind Western Michigan, Northern Illinois, and UNLV. Beginning in 2005 (the 1st year Miami, Va Tech, and BC were all out of the Big East), Schiano had some winning records. They still lost at least 4 games every season but 2006 (six seasons ago). They have finished exactly 4 seasons ranked...ever (2006, 1976, 1961, 1958) and never higher than #12th. The best run in Rutgers history (2005-2011) consisted of beating a depleted Big East and weak non-conference schedule (1 mid-tier bcs team, 1 or 2 fcs games, rest were low mac/sunbelt/ind), to the tune of a 56-33. If we added Rutgers for their football prowess, we have made one of the bigger miscalculations in expansion history.

True, Rutgers is geographically located near NYC. However, Rutgers captures approximately 3.0% of that market. Combined, Rutgers, Penn St, and TTUN deliver 4.6%. I do not see Maryland on the top 10 within that NY Times article everyone sites. Without the YES Network acquisition, the BTN would not be on basic tiers in NYC. It still may not. Rutgers does not move the needle in NYC, save for one night in 2006.

Rutgers is a school with one of the worst athletic departments in the country (not just football), does not move the needle in it's own region, (let alone nationally) and does not make up for it with academic strength. This is a hole in the schedule in every sport, not just football. The Big Ten product has been significantly weakened by the inclusion of Rutgers.

WayCraKen on 29 Nov 2012 - 1:28pm #

But the biggest thing you are forgetting in this equation are the two facts.

1. 3% of NYC market would be the equivelant of a 20% market in any other Big location.

2. The vast amount of midwesterners that have relocated to NYC area could naturally raise the market percentage some. Example someone originally from Columbus would not tune in to watch a Rutgers UConn game. My guess there is nearly 1 Million migrants from midwest to.New York.

cplunk on 29 Nov 2012 - 3:34pm #

Tell me which of these stellar programs is so much better than Rutgers- Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Purdue, Northwestern.

It isn't like the B1G is chock full of flagship programs. Most our conference is crap. Even our "good teams"- Michigan State, Wisconsin- stink and our "great teams"- Michigan, Nebraska, and Penn State are of dubious quality.

OSU is literally carrying the whole conference's water.

You can look at all time if you want, but to me Rutgers football right now, this year and in the present era, is as good as most the dreck our conference is offering up, and their ceiling may be higher. All the B1G crap teams have had money for years and never done a thing with it. Let's at least give Rutgers the chance to get some money and see what they can do.

I think you're evaluating Rutgers in comparison to what you think of the B1G as being- a major, respectable power conference. The fact is, though, that we aren't a major power respectable conference anymore in any way but money. Our football teams suck. We're going to go 0-7 or 1-6 in bowls this year, and this isnt the first time we've done that poorly recently.

Fact is that outside of OSU, there really aren't very many teams that are a step down for the B1G.

Deshaun on 29 Nov 2012 - 6:19pm #

4 factors need to be taken into account when discussing expansion: academics, athletics (particularly football), geography, and moving the needle. The institution must provide a net positive for the conference in order to justify the move from the perspective of the conference. Rutgers is the #68 ranked school by USN&WR, good for 11th out of 14 Big Ten schools. It spent $351,564,000 on academic research in 2009 (most recent data available), better than only Iowa. Rutgers does not enhance the Big Ten's academic profile.

Rutgers was added for the NYC market, right? The BTN is not automatically moved to a basic tier of cable/satellite programming just because a school has been added in the market. If that were the case, the Big East's additions of SMU (Dallas), UCF (Orlando), Houston, and San Diego St combined with the current markets of Temple (Philadelphia), Cincinnati, Georgetown (DC), St John's (NYC), and DePaul (Chicago) would result in a bigger TV package than the Big Ten, SEC, or Pac 12. The key is the properties of a conference must provide adequate market penetration to necessitate a move to a basic package or risk losing subscribers. Rutgers does not do this any more than the aforementioned Big East schools do, even combined with transplanted Big Ten alumni. Now, if you believe NewsCorp's acquisition of the YES Network enables the Big Ten to bundle negotiations with the BTN in the NYC market and crams us on the basic tier, it seems the addition of Rutgers only marginally assists this effort. Another, more valuable academic, athletic institution with more national/regional market penetration may have been just as valuable in NYC without diluting the Big Ten product.

Let's talk athletics. I made a comment above regarding Rutgers athletic department being one of the worst in the country. The Learfield Directors Cup is essentially the all-sports trophy ranking every athletic department in the country. I put together a study of the past 4 years (2008-09 thru 2011-12) of every FBS school's total points and rank. We can analyze the numbers any way we like. I chose to take the median of those 4 years, thus eliminating the highest and lowest value to reduce any single season spikes in the data. The best athletic department in the Big Ten, by this measure, is Ohio St (GO BUCKS!!!) with a median score of 1,060.03. That is good enough for 7th in the nation. The rest of the Big Ten scores are as follows:
Penn St- 973.40
TTUN- 970.63
Minnesota- 791.00
Illinois- 756.88
Wisconsin- 695.63
Maryland- 689.55
Nebraska- 636.65
Michigan St- 592.40
Indiana- 565.63
Northwestern- 491.38
Purdue- 479.00
Iowa- 478.15
Rutgers- 170.50

That's right...170.50. Good enough to be ranked the 80th best FBS athletic department in the country. Schools #77-79 are Air Force, Fresno St, and Akron, respectively. They did not crack 200 points once in the last 4 years. The only power-5 conference schools worse than Rutgers are Washington St and Pittsburgh. Let's talk about revenue sports. Rutgers has made the NCAA men's basketball tournament 6 times (1975, 1976, 1979, 1983, 1989, and 1991) and has not won such a game in 30 years. Don't count on any NCAA tournament shares being earned by Rutgers. More recent data? They have an average RPI over the past 5 seasons of 195.0. The single worst current Big Ten team over that span: Iowa at 160.40. They're not just worse than every Big Ten athletic department. They're waaay worse at just about everything.

Let's talk football. Rutgers has been on a better run than Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, and Minnesota lately. However, most of those wins were against a very weak schedule. How weak? I just looked it up and the only time in the last 5 seasons Rutgers had a tougher SOS was in 2010 (ranked #67th), when Indiana (#78) and Northwestern (#74) played lighter schedules. 8-9 win seasons against those schedules are no better than Minnesota's and Purdue's 6-6, and certainly not on par with Northwestern's 9-3 against 11 FBS schools. Indiana is the perennial doormat of the league, and is on an upward trajectory with Kevin Wilson. Iowa and Illinois have work to do, but both went to bowls last year (against tougher schedules than Rutgers) and Iowa won the Orange Bowl in 2009. We keep hearing about Rutgers' fertile recruiting ground, but it's not that fertile. New Jersey high schools produce 6.67 NFL draft picks per year (using most recent 3 years available). Ohio produces 15.0. Virginia produces 10.0. North Carolina produces 8.33. Both are more fertile recruiting ground than what Rutgers brings. Even the Maryland/DC area produces 7.67 draft picks per year. As little as the Big Ten likes to spend on coaches, even Iowa and Indiana spend more on their entire coaching staffs than Rutgers. Their budget of $19.2M places them in the bottom half of the Big Ten. So you have an underfunded football program with no tradition, little awareness/popularity/support in its own market, in an area without inherent recruiting advantages (recruiting base, superior facilities, even weather) moving to a conference with Ohio St, Nebraska, and TTUN. Based on what do we think they will help make the Big Ten the best conference in the nation?

I don't even hate Rutgers. I liked Schiano's "choppin wood" team of 2006. Sure their conference and non-conference schedules were both weak, but they kept producing winning records. They were the lovable underdogs who scrapped to 8-5 records. But they are not, have not recently been, and have never been the type of program to make the Big Ten the best football (and, by extension, athletics) conference in the nation. The Big Ten had a chance to achieve that. It was in the position of strength as the conference with the network, the fans, and the money. Yes, Rutgers is, in every way, an anchor. If the Big Ten does not use this new found money to hit home runs with these last two moves, it (although it feels like "we") will never be the #1 conference. If we hit 2 home runs, (which now have to be better than UVa, UNC, Va Tech, Missouri, Kansas, etc) we can still win conference expansion.

GoldenBearBuckeye on 28 Nov 2012 - 8:11pm #

I like UVA for its prestige, but it is , at best. just Northwestern without the Chicago market. I don't know that UVA has any market whatsoever.

The percentage growth figures are worth noting, but NYC dwarfs E'ville Virginia and will still be bigger and more prominent than the UVA market in 500 years despite the growth rate differential.

The Big 10 has great viewership and great potential to be and stay a top football conference. The trend to the SEC is a bit alarming but it may well be a cycle like the Big 8 in the 50's, the Pac 10 in the 70's and the Florida schools in the 80's.

We have not been able to crow lately, but we have endured quite prosperously, and who know what things will look like in 5 or 15 or 25 years.

cplunk on 28 Nov 2012 - 8:18pm #

Actually he Norfolk market is the 44th biggest in the country (similar to Louisville) and the Richmond area is 49th. That's according the Neilson DMA rankings.

Add them together and hey are the same size as St. Louis.

I'm not sure UVA actually gets cable subscribers in both those markets, but if the VTN could leverage itself onto basic cable in both markets than UVA is the financial equivalent of a Missouri. That's better than much of the B1G's markets.

Not sure hats thats the play I'd make, but it could be argued that UVA is fairly valuable

cplunk on 28 Nov 2012 - 8:19pm #

And I apologize for tha many mispellings- my phone sucks

GoldenBearBuckeye on 28 Nov 2012 - 9:39pm #

I can't do diddly on my phone.

I hear you that Va is worth something, but it isn't NYC

Buckeye_in_SEC_... on 28 Nov 2012 - 6:19pm #

We need to go ahead and move to 4 power conferences of 16 teams. The top 2 teams from every conference play in an 8 team playoff and everyone gets a bowl game.

cplunk on 28 Nov 2012 - 7:35pm #

I'm in

kareemabduljacobb on 28 Nov 2012 - 6:51pm #

Conference USA adds FAU and Middle Tenn!!! ha

osuforlife on 28 Nov 2012 - 7:11pm #

Mayland said the same thing as North Carolina they weren't leave the Acc . Guess what the next week they were in the Big Ten.

osuforlife on 28 Nov 2012 - 7:25pm #

If these schools leave the Acc will ND still go to the league. The only team any good in football will be Clemson,Fl State, anhd Vt.

Rural Meyer on 28 Nov 2012 - 8:17pm #

Did drewbuckeye tell you that?

osuforlife on 28 Nov 2012 - 11:12pm #

Here one for you Navy joins ACC for football and Georgetown joins for basketball. If that u con might come along. ND they need to play 6 games a years 4 in there pod and 2 against other teams.

DaiTheFlu on 29 Nov 2012 - 12:04am #

Am I the only one who'd rather see Va. Tech in the Big Ten than Virginia? I was under the impression that VT was a decent school academically. What's the big appeal of UVA?

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

DaiTheFlu on 29 Nov 2012 - 12:07am #

I'm already irritated that we aren't playing Nebraska or MSU regularly. Adding schools like UNC and UVA will only water down the on-field product even more. Especially since it has already been diluted with Maryland and Rutgers. I really, really hope the endgame of this B10 expansion is Texas or ND. Please.

We can't stop here; this is bat country...

osuforlife on 29 Nov 2012 - 12:09am #

Vt an North Carolina State will to the Sec.

osuforlife on 29 Nov 2012 - 12:37am #

The way big ten is adding teams we might go to 3 divsions and a 9 game schedule. I know is the Sec are having some serious headaches for footbal schedules. For basketball there no more east and west divisions there all in divisions.

osuforlife on 29 Nov 2012 - 3:03pm #

Bearcats making serious push to join ACC

703Buckeye on 29 Nov 2012 - 3:24pm #

You're a couple days late.

"Attack the Strong, Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead!"
-Former OSU S&C Coach Lichter

osuforlife on 29 Nov 2012 - 3:40pm #

According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, the desire to play stiffer competition than the likes of Tulane and East Carolina prompted Cincinnati to leave C-USA for the Big East seven years ago. The reconstructed Big East would include 13 football teams in 2014, nine of them former C-USA schools, according to the Enquirer

dancorona5 on 29 Nov 2012 - 5:28pm #

man...if you're going to make all these forum topics. do everyone a favor and start putting the sources to it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/report-cincinnati-hopes-join-acc-013012314--ncaaf.html

osuforlife on 29 Nov 2012 - 4:14pm #

The ACC has also been also contacted by Connecticut, USF, Cincinnati and Navy. None of those schools are being sought after by other leagues, meaning that if the ACC moves to 16 schools