I read this article this morning on OSU and Michigan battling for recruits. Was wondering from an osu fan perspective if you agree or disagree with some of these points.
*Note- For whatever reason you have to click on the scarlet and blue link on the lelft side after you click on the link.
http://www.michigantremendous.com/2012/10/scarlet-and-blue.html
I'm getting a "blog does not exist" page
Sorry Urban, Woody is still my favorite
It looks like it was deleted? It was a really good article that pointed out the positives that both teams do and how they're different. If he reposts it, I'll put the link back on here.
Update: Looks like Mike figured out you just have to click on the scarlet and blue tab on the left hand side of the link.
Steve does a great job. Raised great points.
You have to click on "Scarlet and Blue" link on the left side
It reads like a typical ttun article. Just like the one at another site I was led to by clicking a link yesterday I believe. There the ttun writer was stating that their team was indeed better than OSU because they should have won their games and OSU has been lucky to win some of their games. Really? It always goes to their perception. Not reality based.
The absolute best line, of several, in the story linked to here:
"Meyer is going to win. He's already winning, although I think it's not as much Urb as it is already having a good team."
So Luke could have coached this team to 9-0. It's very hard to read this stuff.
or just go to Http://www.michigantremendous.com where it is the first post
Good read.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Interesting article, and I agree with a lot of things that the author had to say. Seems like he's really going for the "UM is family, OSU is business" frame, though; which I don't totally agree with. Perhaps that's the aim of the individual events that he references, but I don't think it's fair to categorize either as reality (in fairness, he makes this point, as well). I don't know as much about Hoke's recruiting, but what I do know is that Noah Spence didn't really care about Urban's rings: he was blown away by the fact that Urban cared about his family, and how they felt about Ohio State. It seems like Urban goes to a great effort to tailor his message to different players: seeking an advantage anywhere he can.
It's worth noting that calling Michael Ferns a "recruiting battle" between the two teams is a bit misleading. OSU might have offered him, but they're pretty generous with offers, and it's unclear if his was actually "committable" (this is false, per Derek). What is clear is that he was definitely behind McMillian,
James, and Booker--which I'm betting he knew. With the differences in each staff's methods for offers/recruiting/etc., I consider battles to be for players with mutual interest (from staff and player alike) like DeVeon Smith, or Armani Reeves--simply holding an offer isn't good enough for me (though Tuley-Tillman, Fox, and Bosch were definite targets). McCray falls into this latter category, as it was obvious he was a backup plan from the start (as his late offer indicated)."Tressel's Wall" is a bit of a misnomer, as well. Tressel's recruiting was bolstered by UM's RichRod saga (which itself was precipitated by Lloyd Carr's well-known recruiting dearth towards the end of his career), and his "wall" was solidified by OSU's dominance over that timespan. Bottom line was if Tressel wanted you, you were going to go to OSU--because the rest of the Big Ten either sucked or lacked the requisite facilities, prestige, or coaching. Hoke has not only brought about Michigan's renewal--which, in turn, has rightfully renewed the "brand power" and "value proposition" of the university's name--but he's also going after the same kind of guys that Tressel would have targeted, while Meyer's looking for a different breed (see McCray, Mike). So yes, Ohio is now dealing elite recruits to both ND and UM as well as OSU; but the players aren't necessarily the same for each system, meaning each staff's overall level of interest could range from "must get" to completely ignoring them. I still think that as both Meyer and Hoke build their programs into their vision, when they go head-to-head for an Ohio recruit with the same vigor, I'll take my chances with Urban any day.
*EDIT - Thanks, Derek. I appreciate your clarification.
Good article. Fairly objective, IMO.
GO BUCKS!
@lougroza
I don't think Fickell would of won 9 games. But I don't think he is wrong by that statement. For example I don't think Luke would of used Braxton the right way. However do I think another coach could of came in and took this team to 9-0? Maybe, I could easily see an 8-1 record. Before the season (because of a good team and Urban) I thought osu had the potential to go undefeated at best and at worst I thought they would lose 2 games. Urban inherited amazing talent, Luke just didn't know what to do with it. Plus I think this year's schedule could not of played out any better for OSU with the strong home schedule.
I disagree on a few points obviously but overall, a good read.
I don't think many coaches would have this team 9-0, but I also don't think quality head coaches coach it to 6-7. So, to each their own.
Michael Ferns definitely had a committable offer. To say Davonte James was ahead of him is flat out wrong.
Meyer will recruit successfully in Ohio but he won't have the type of success in Ohio as Tressel had, and for two different reasons.
One: If he can find better talent elsewhere, he will.
Two: He isn't recruiting against Rich Rodriguez and Charlie Weis/Tyrone Willingham. Brian Kelly and Brady Hoke have already made as much, if not more, of an impact on high caliber Ohio recruits as those coaches ever did.
A 6-7 team last year with basically the same players in 2012. Very good incoming freshmen talent but they are freshmen. Add to that all of the injuries and we would have been lucky to be 6-3 at this point without Urban. According to recent articles, outside of Braxton our talent is equivalent to Minnesota. Also as mentioned above the ttun faithful must feel the same as they are in the camp that says they are better than OSU due to their losses were to better competition than anyone we've played.
Another typical, subjective TSUN article. Does not really say anything I havent heard from TSUN fans already. Both teams believe they have the better recruiting class. The only way to see is on the field in November.
"if irony were made of strawberries, we' d all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."
As a fan even though I try to be objective, I admit that I have a major Buckye bias. It can be hard for me to understand why a kid wouldn't want to come to OSU and play for Meyer, especially if its an Ohio kid.
The article's author brought up something that I will say personally makes me cringe. I have heard and read many times where people (not so much on here, but on other sites) refer to Urban as a god or a rock star or any of those type of stupid terms. Yes, I really like the guy and I'm glad he's our coach and the guy has had a stellar career in coaching with great success, but all that just makes OSU look and sound ridiculous.
@Lou
I'm guessing those articles are on bleacher report?
Personally, I think Alabama crushes OSU, but I think OSU could beat ND and did beat Nebraska. We'll find out on Nov. 24. Hopefully, both teams are full strength and the weather is fair.
Those who stay will be CHAMPIONS!
~Bo Schembechler
Hodge commented about UM being family while OSU is business. Apparently, UM is quick to disown their family members if they want to visit elsewhere. Plus, there are plenty of recruits who seem to think Urban is a great person as well as a great coach. Not everybody is going to be a fan.
OSU fans have the S&G glasses out as usual so you have to expect this.
I think the main thing is that Meyer IMO wants to be more national in his recruiting like ND to a certain extent, while still getting 10 or so of the top guys in state in a given year. Michigan is making an effort to battle OSU for those 10 guys in state. They also have done a good job nationally, but I'm not sure their focus is national as much as OSUs is recently.
Granted, that could be b/c OSU doesn't have to work as hard for a lot of Ohio kids honestly
Pretty good read. I never know what to expect when I read an article written by the enemy.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate the objective stance most have taken in responding to it because I think both staffs have done an excellent job and will continue to do so. Those who aren't objective are unlikely to be objective regardless.
My basic argument: The better Michigan recruits Ohio, the better they will be. That's not good for Ohio State, regardless of how well they recruit. That should be clear.
Also, the business/family thing is not meant to be in absolutes. It's more of a feel I've gotten in talking to the many, many kids who have been recruited by both.
Thanks again.
First, Hoke has clearly shown himself to be an able recruiter. He quickly created an environment in AA that recruits responded to and told a good story about returning michigan back to glory. However, it is worth noting that Hoke walked into the ideal situation for a 1st year coach. OSU, his main rival on the field and in recruiting, was in absolute tumult, seemingly a sinking ship. Michigan, in contrast, sailed smoothly through a weak schedule that gave the "return to glory" narrative even more credibility.
Now things will begin to get interesting. If michigan can pull the upset this year --and I do believe they will give the Buckeyes a stiff challenge at the least-- Hoke will be firmly entrenched in AA and also have established a strong presence in the minds of Ohio recruits. On the other hand, if the Buckyes win The Game this year, Urban quickly establishes himself as The Coach in the BIG, michigan crawls away with at least their 4th loss of the season, and a date in something like the outback bowl at best, and some of Brady Hoke's shiny glow reveals itself to be little more than chicken grease. In either case, this year's edition of The Game will be huge in the recruiting wars between Hoke and Urban.
So those that do not agree with your assessment isn't objective? I will have to start taking that stance. Makes me feel pretty good about myself.
I enjoyed reading just about every part of the article and thought it was a fair opinion on Ohio State's recruiting, but there was one quote that I strongly disagreed with: "Meyer is going to win. He's already winning, although I think it's not as much Urb as it is already having a good team, at least this season." Steve may say that I am just a fan trying to deify Urban, but I don't know a heck of a lot of coaches that can take a 6-7 team with hardly any additions (we had a solid recruiting class, but no real explosive impact freshmen to this point aside from special teams) and turn them into a 9-0 team.
I read a quote yesterday from Bennett on ESPN saying that the rest of the Big Ten should be "very afraid" of Urban Meyer because he is 9-0 and this is possibly the worst team he will ever have at OSU.
Michigan is going to continue to poach recruits out of Ohio. The thing that bugs me most about OSU is guys like Katzfan who harrass recruits on Twitter about being from Ohio yet choosing to go to ttun. He did it with Ferns. He did it with Dymonte. Some kids in Ohio hate Ohio State simply because everybody else loves them. Some kids are in Ohio but don't have parents or close family members that like OSU. Point is, not everyone from Ohio is going to want to go to Ohio State. Michigan is a great school (academically) and they field a very good football team. Also, there are just too many great Ohio high school football players for OSU to catch them all.
Final thought: I think people in TSUN are trying to deify Brady Hoke wayyy too early. He has done wonders with the TTUN defense (which is still porous), but is running Rich Rod's offense with Rich Rod's players. Who knows whether his pro-style offense will work when Denard leaves and Shane Morris enters? It could be several years before he gets his pieces in place to work that offense. He is a great recruiter though.
I cant stop laughing, as the page comes up w/ Hoke pointing one of his sausage fingers at something, all I can image is him screaming... GIMME A BRAT! NOW!!!
In all honesty, that was a very good article. Certainly less biased than you might expect. I personally agree with a lot of it & disagree with only some of it. Hodge covered it very well when he wrote of Urbans view on family. I would also agree that head to head, I'll take my chance with Urban. Finally, as far as the rings go - why not show them off? They won't do anyone any good good collecting dust in a drawer..
The world is full of kings & queens who'll blind your eyes & steal your dreams - it's heaven & hell - Ronnie James Dio.
Ahh Saturday
I disagree with you on walking into an ideal situation. Hoke didn't have near the talent that that OSU has on it's roster for his first year. He had a QB who wouldn't be able to adapt to his type of offense. One of the worst defenses I've ever seen at Michigan and stasitically one of the worst in division 1. Where Urban coming in with a top talent qb who already had one previous year in experience, who could also be able to run the type of offense Urban wanted. Also this a year removed outside of the Tressel firing, if anything this brought new life back to the players getting a coach like Urban. Before the season nobody was really questioning there defense if anything people were saying they would have one of the best defensive lines in the nation. You can easily argue that OSU's schedule is just as easy as Michigan's was there first year and probably easier for OSU. Giving the circumstances with PSU and a way under achieving Wisconsin who just got a bit easier without a QB. I'm not knocking or saying every single coach could have done what Urban is. My point is I wouldn't say that Hoke got to walk into the ideal situation in Michigan.
Tremendous: your article comparing Ohio State and Michigan recruiting (linked above) is very well thought out - a highly interesting read.
I don't doubt that your analysis is striving for objectivity, but I do question whether you, I, or anyone else can discover some objective qualitative truths concerning the "recruiting wars."
We can halfway be objective if we simply list the quantitative measurables: average star ratings, recruting site rankings, how the two schools fared in their head-to-head battles, etc. Even then, though, these "objective" quantitative measures are highly imperfect tools for predicting future on-field success.
There is no way to truly be "objective" in the type of qualitative analysis you wrote, which is just fine. We all have our own mix of biases, experiences, perspectives, etc. It's simply impossible to objectively isolate, and then assess the importance of, a variable that corresponds to your perceptions of how different coaching staffs promote some loosely defined values. Interesting, yes, and possibly insightful, but not actually objective.
For example, you acknowledge the possibility that the kids you talk to - Michigan commits/targets - might not freely express themselves. But I'd go much further in suggesting that the anecdotal evidence you collect from such sources might be so completely skewed as to make any serious comparisons based on those interviews highly unreliable. Still, it was fun to read.
If you don't think Hoke walked into an ideal situation then you are blindly ignoring the reality presenting itself in RichRod's success this year. It certainly leads me to believe the problems on defense were coaching and Lloyd destroying the cupboards, and not the talent left behind by Rodriguez. Additionally, the QB that "doesn't fit" Hoke's system is one of the main reasons they were able to squeeze a decent season out of a historically weak schedule.
Tremendous - I find it ironic that you get on the soapbox about objectivity, but then admit that the business/family thing was "feel" you got from talking to recruits (feelings, or "feels," are inherently subjective, are they not?). Wouldn't an objective look factor in how a recruit of Hoke would be more likely to mention that than a recruit of Meyer, since Hoke's recruit has fewer options (e.g., national championships, success in a major conference--they were third in the Big Ten the same year OSU was coachless, starless, and mediocre--sending players to the NFL, winning a big bowl game--what VaTech counts?--)? To me that would skew the results, and I wouldn't be surpised at all to see players chose more of the touchy-feely reasons when there is absence of the other options. Not to take anything away from the well-received article.
@penult A good opinion without all the mush. (as Chevy Chase would say " IIIIII like it.")
O H I O is the Buckeye State
I love this shit, always great to know what the enemy is up to. Is it just me or is that the most awesome Meyer vs Hoke photo there, might never be a better coach rivalry photo than that.
@Run - I will vote you and Hodge as running mates in any election we may ever have in the future here at 11W....I don't know, maybe President and Vice of Selective Wording and The Proper Use Thereof Without Being Blunt? And Penult you have a place there as well. Glad others could pull out of it what I did. Sometimes I think I'm losing it faster than I should be.....
Some here have mentioned the lack of interest of being on other teams blogs. Really puzzled about posting a ttun tilted article, the points of interest are easily visible, on this blog, an OSU blog. Then stating that he is objective as opposed to others inability to be objective is one of the most humorous things I've ever witnessed here. I do not get the point of it first. You can read that stuff on any ttun site you go to. So we can go there and read it if we want to. Why do we want it here. It was posted by a ttun fan. Then the author(?) comes in to continue with it? It contains comparison to OSU but always in the same light. We are behind the great and MNC winning coach Hoke? Wait, oh, yeah, well the guy with a 60% winning percentaige...same thing, right? Yes, yes, I know MMan and Hail are high on several lists which is fine, that has nothing to do with this. This place gets strange at times. Great Buckeye fans here though.
@penult Feel is more the general response I've gotten from the 100 or so recruits we've talked to that are being recruited by both schools. As I said earlier, making the business/family comparison was not meant to be absolute. It's more of the general response I've gotten when discussing the schools with different recruits. This includes kids who eventually committed to Michigan, eventually committed to Ohio State and eventually committed elsewhere. It also includes those who haven't made up their minds.
Also, the recruiting pitch by the Michigan staff isn't really much different than it was when they were at San Diego State. I don't think winning is going to change the angles they take because they're telling kids they're going to win.
@run My intent in discussing objectivity is simply in saying I try to keep a clear angle when writing something like this. Both are recruiting well. They recruit in what looks to be completely different styles. I think it's an interesting topic, but as you make clear, it's a blurry one too when trying to uncover how it actually goes down. It always will be, but I thought I'd at least give it a try because people would like it. I like this site a lot and have done a lot of work with Alex, Derek and Miles and enjoy discussion on the topic.
And I wasn't going to really respond to @LouGroza, but if you read that article and think that it's saying Michigan is ahead of Ohio State recruiting-wise, or something along those lines, then you already made your mind up about what was written before you read it. I think I was pretty complimentary of Coach Meyer and what he's done and will continue to do...and rightfully so.
Lou: thanks. You're not losing it at all. I enjoy reading your comments.
I agree, Tremendous can no more be objective about the benefits of Michigan's "family" atmosphere on recruiting "success" (which is ultimately decided on football fields 2, 3, 4 years hence) than I can be objective about the economic impacts of artificial breast implants on the adult content industry (I say that it is a scourge! But does anyone else agree with me?).
Personally, though, I don't mind the occasional links to TTUN or other "enemy"/team sites because I would very rarely visit those sites unless someone here first alerts me, "Hey, this post was pretty good." I probably indulge myself too much here at 11W. I don't have time to wade through all the homer posts at other team sites to find the more interesting nuggets. Tremendous's post was one of those nuggets, IMO, but calling it "objective" is kinda silly.
Tremendous: thanks for the response. I do think you make a valiant effort to "keep a clear angle" when writing about the topic and the post I read was insightful, interesting - good food for thought - which is the best you can hope to accomplish with a piece like that. Kudos.
I tend to be a pompous ass, wannabe professor of logic, so for you to even casually reference a claim to objectivity (which is a philosophically-loaded term), you might as well have waived a red cape in front of a bull. But that's my quirk - you probably did not mean to establish your objectivity in some heavy, literal sense.
That said, I'm just not sure about drawing clear angles based on your interviews, including for reasons others have pointed out here in this thread. Your sources are 16-18 old kids who are going through an emotionally-charged, ego-intensive process. Some of these kids are being asked to describe the recruiting styles/approaches of recruiting staffs that a few months prior to your interviews had maybe literally or figuratively "rejected" them. Your data is highly anecdotal. What kid ever ever says, "School Y had the best family atmosphere, but I decided nonetheless to go to School X because . . ."? A kid commits to a school presumably because that's where he "feels at home."
I could go on, but I'm already blathering.
To wrap up, then: the clearest angle we'll eventually get on which staff better sold itself - whether in terms of family, professionalism, winning, etc. - will be future on-field results. If Hoke convinces a bunch of 4-star kids that he and his staff are Family Central, but it turns out that Hoke's evals of those kids were overly rosy, then Michigan will be a close-knit family of underachievers. Or, more likely, if they fail to live up to expectations, that legendary Hoke family atmosphere will erode in spite of Hoke's atmospherics. Because real families (flesh and blood) tend to stick together through thick and thin; but football "families" tend to be closer when they're winning.
This is a nice thread, I always respect when a writer comes to enemy territory to defend his position. I tend to agree that Hoke walked into a pretty nice situation, and I think RichRod left some pretty good talent behind. Hoke may get a pass this year with a 4 or 5 loss season because he still doesn't have "his recruits" playing.