Alright everyone, I just want people's opinions on this. What do you think about running offensvie plays out of the shotgun on the goalline? I am talking inside the 5-yard line. I only say this because when ASU was playing Missouri last week, ASU was on the 1, it was first down, and they were about to punch it in for the win. So they proceed to run shotgun read and a QB ISO from shotgun. WHY DO THIS ON THE GOALLINE? I hate Shotgun on the goalline. I notice OSU does this as well, and I get so nervouse. When you get inside the 5, it should be under center, pound, pound, pound, pound, and pound some more. QB sneak, FB dive, HB iso/offtackle. But to use shotgun on the GL and try to run it in that way, you have to wait for the ball to get to you, then you are already 5 yards back. I-formation = quicker.
I say this because ASU was on the 1, the got stuffed, twice, and tried to play action pass I believe and got stuffed again, all on the one. Then they got a penalty, threw the ball and it got picked. I believe that was the sequence of events. Honestly, why do shotgun inside the 5? That is when power should meet power and as quick as possible. Thoughts? I was really pissed they did not score because I picked them to win in my college pick-em and it cost me first place. haha
what are your thoughts?
The only time we haven't scored within the 5 was when we were in a power formation. Until something bad happens, I like shotgun.
I get what your saying, it seems like its safer to run I form and pound the ball. But under Tressell we did that and our redzone offense was absolute shit, and this year I think I read were like 10/13 for tds in the redzone (or something similar) so it seems to be working well.
I am not saying that it is not working for us. I am glad it is. I am just extremely nervous when we run shotgun on the goal, and I hate when I pick teams to win and they run shotgun on the GL. haha.
@buckeyes, i understand, but I am not only focusing on the Bucks, I am just talking in general and of my own preference, I guess. But then again, that is why I am not a coach and am in metals & mining.
and yes, it does seem to be working well buckeyechad, which is good. But I cannot say that my nerves get calmed when I see shotgun inside the five. you know what i mean?
I love the shotgun down by the goalline or in short yardage. You have an extra blocker. Also, see the following!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU9QsIaGEKQ
In a game deciding goal line situation, I would prefer smash and pound football.
[Shotgun formation + Braxton Miller] > DAVE
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
@immort, nice video. My rebuttal to that would be how everyone, including coaches, were saying that Miller was getting tagged quite a bit and running too much, now people are saying that keeping it in the QB's hands is a must**. Its fine if you have a big ass QB as a back-up. Also, if he decides to hand the ball off, then you lose that extra blocker, which would be the same thing in I-formation, except not hitting as quickly as I-form, IMO.
** keep in mind, just a point of discussion. I have no idea what your stance is on miller carrying and the number of times he has carried. I am just trying to get all points of view that I can on the subject and using certain situations as starting points.
I know that Braxton is the game breaker, get past that initial thought. I know you need the ball in the best players hand.
I guess you have to just go with what you practice. If Alabama was lining up in shotgun on the goalline that would probably be pretty stupid, but for this team the shotgun is the identity now so they have to go with whats comfortable. I'm with you that I would like to see us show the ability at least, to pound the ball, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen very often. maybe once Hyde gets healthy again?
yea, agreed with. Still, my nerves will always be there in the shotgun inside the 5. just how I am haha
As has been pointed out above, we have been extremely succesful in the red zone out of the gun. It gives us a lot more options and prevents the defense from selling out up the middle and shutting us down. I would be much more worried if we lined up in the I, because that's not what we practice and if 1 D-lineman gets penetration then we're probably done. If we are in the gun, the defense has to worry about a RB up the gut, Braxton up the gut, Brax pulling the ball and going to either side, an option either way, the jump pass, a play action to the TE, a sprint out throw to WR (as we saw with Brown in game 1), a sprint out keep by Brax (2pt conversion last week), etc. We threaten the entire field and make the defense have to think or be punished, rather than lining up and saying that we will score if we push you further than you push us.
I'm not sure what you're looking for, as you have asked to put aside every piece of evidence that shows we have been very effective from the shotgun.
My best guess is because you spread the defense out so they can't just play the run. If you run the ball out of the spread inside the 5, there are less defenders to stop the runner and less time for the defenders to get there. Also, if the defense doesn't cover one of the receivers, for whatever reason, it is an easy TD. Seems logical to me.
Buckeye Nuthouse Member 2011-13 season
Block "O" 2012 season
@Shaun, my original questions was in general. Others are focusing only on Braxton because I mentioned that OSU has done it as well. I am speaking in general terms, whatever team in the country, not just the bucks. I am just trying to get peopls points.
Since people were only focusing on the bucks, I had to tailor my responses a bit, but my focus was not on Miller or Ohio State, it was just diverted to Miller and Ohio State.
Here is what I am getting at: No matter what team, no matter what situation, no matter who is at QB, if it is inside the 5, I feel more comfortable in the I or some type of power running formation.
All I said was get past the point that braxton is the best player on the field, because people would respond "It serves US better because Miller is OUR best player." But I said to look past that fact because my focus was not on the Bucks.....
I just don't think generalizations make much sense. Each time should run what it runs best (or some variation of it). There is no perfect call for every team. If your QB isn't a run threat and you can't throw, then obviously don't line up in shotgun. If you have a dynamic QB with a run/pass threat, give him the ball with space to do something with it. Trying to fit every team into one formation seems kind of silly.
I'm old school --- I like a fullback in there, with the QB under center, & the RB behind the FB --- and just try to pound it in the endzone. But, it depends on the athletic ability of the QB. If he is a run/pass threat --- that gives you more play options. Traditionally, though, I like to run it on 1st & 2nd downs, even if they know it's coming. Because if you run it on 1st & goal from the 8 yard line, for example, and only get one yard, then if you throw it incomplete on 2nd & goal from the 7 --- the defense just knows that 90% of the time you're going to throw it on 3rd & long, (the other 10% probably being some sort of draw). And, it's especially hard to run routes in that short distance, which leads to a higher chance of interception. Run it on 2nd & long --- try to get at least 4 or so yards, that way on 3rd down --- you keep the Defense honest & they don't know if you're running or throwing. But, if you have an athletic QB, like a Troy Smith, Terrelle Pryor or Braxton Miller, and it's 1st or 2nd & goal from the 6 yard line and in --- spread it out and try the QB draw.
* I especially like, (on a 3rd & medium distance play inside the 10), a run/pass option if you have an athletic QB. Roll him out, roll the pocket out, and if the play action throw or sprint out pattern isn't open ... he can run it in. I feel like the fade is too much of a low-% play in this situation, (unless you have an athletic freak on a mismatched/undersized CB).
Side note: I really can't stand it when teams go to a spread Offense / 4-5 Receiver/1-back set on 3rd & short. I especially can't stand when a team has a QB on third & 1, or 4th & inches scenario, and they call for a handoff to a RB who is 5 yards deep in the backfield. That just gives the D-Line extra time and space to penetrate the gaps. On 4th & inches, just let your large QB fall forward...I feel like that works 90% of the time. Don't overthink it --- keep it simple in these situations...play the percentages.
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
"I just don't think generalizations make much sense. Each time should run what it runs best (or some variation of it). There is no perfect call for every team."
I agree with Shaun OSU completely. I-Formation was perfect for the traditional QBs/RBs we had in years past, but I think if we have Brax and Jordan Hall in there, the Shotgun fits them perfectly--spread out the defenders and let them make a quick cut for 6. I love the little Tebow-esque pass wrinkle they threw in as well.
^^^ this is the kind of answer I was hoping for (meant for Bucks432). Your thoughts, in general, on the scenario. Not if the Bucks can do well in the Shotgun, not if Braxton is the reason we are doing it and to give it to him because it is what we practice.... I am saying, in general, what are your thoughts on shotgun at the goal line. I understand that each team should run what they practice, that is not my quarrel. I understand there is no perfect call for every team.
@shaun, you are not a head coach in college football, you do not have a highly mobile, and feard QB toting the ball every single down. You are not under the gun to pick the play to bring home a championship with time winding down. You are a fan of football. What are your thoughts on Shotgun inside the five. Not for OSU, not for Spread teams with mobile QB's, just your thoughts. hich is why I say get past the thought of Braxton being the best athlete on the field and the first to toucht the ball. YOUR thoughts. (This paragraph is not meant to insult you, just meant to give more description on the scenario, FYI)
You already know my thoughts, it makes me nervous as hell and I do not like it, even if we have an amazingly athletic QB, heh. But that is me and I explained my reasoning for not liking that situation.
jeez, i had some trouble typing that, too dark in my living room
@DubJay
Just like I said, you do what your team does best. If you aren't a shotgun team, don't run shotgun. If your O-line can't beat the D-line, don't try to run at them, you better try outside or the pass. If all you run is the triple option, you run that triple option or maybe dial up a playaction option pass. I have no problem with the shotgun from the 5 if you have Aaron Rodgers and you think you can pick apart the D and zip a pass in there.
If you are asking if getting in the shotgun to just run the ball up the gut is dumb, then yes, I agree. But that is wasting the utility of the shotgun and is not a smart playcall. But the formation is not inheritly bad in the red zone. Just find a way to get your best player the opportunity to get the ball in the endzone, whatever position he plays.
The second part of your response is exactly what ASU did and why I asked this question in the first place. haha, just lined up in shotgun and ran the qb up the gut.
Agreed that it depends on the personnel, but personally, I get more nervous on shotgun inside the 5 then power running formation inside the 5. But in the end, as long as the ball breaks the goallin, my nerves are eased. But only if the plane is broken. Until then, i am gonna gnaw my finger nails off
The shotgun gives more flexibility at the goal line. QB blasts, bootlegs, QB sweeps, jet sweeps, jump passes, etc. and I like it.
I wouldn't cheer for Michigan if they were playing the Taliban.
With Braxton at QB this is what you can do out of the shoutgun inside the five:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b_CD8K9NcW0
when i play my ncaa13 N i'm inside the 5 i normally play in a power run set. i love the power option out of the I, so i like power inside the 5 oposed to the spread overall personally. but now that ohio state is running a spread i'm all for it for them bec thats what urb does and that is what is best for his teams.
O'Deez330
stark county football
If the qb runs too, then he cant be on the line he can't get going down hill. But I prefer fullbacks laying out linebackers.
Wherever you are, there you be!
Don't know if anyone has said this yet but, I'd imagine they want to run plays that they practice the most in practice. And I assume they are practicing out of the shotgun the majority of the time. Running power I on the goal line would go against what this team is built for and they are not practicing it much.
yes i know this is how OSU runs their offense, I know it is best to give braxton the ball anywhere on the field, I understand teams practice certain things everyday. Take your interest in ohio state out, take your (imaginiary) personell out. Just your raw opinion on shotgun on the goalline. Obviously, if you got iller, you give him the ball, I agree, but I am not focusing on Braxton. I think the majority have automatically assumed that I am speaking of OSU and that I am against their offensive choices? As long as something is working, I love it, so I have no quarrel there. Just in general, in every facet of life, shotgun on the goalline is not my go to...
Edit: not sure if this came off harsh, but rest assued, it was not meant to be. just giving an explanation.
hhhmmm macho goal line offense, line em up and run between the tackles. love it yes. however, due to other teams scouting and looking at film or dvd or whatever, i think maybe there needs to be a bit of variation from time to time. how many times can a team run between the tackles, before the other team schemes to stop it? so maybe a fake dive into the middle once or twice a year and scooting around the edge or a quick flip of the ball to a receiver might give the opponent something to think about. if i was a betting man, then i would say i dont care how my team scores just do it, passing , shotgun, dive into the middle, give it to a coach, anything , just score baby. hand off to the water girl. just do it. last week the uk game with western kentucky, did anyone see the two point conversion that won it in overtime? sure wasnt a macho on macho run up the middle. great call by coach taggert. gutsy. gutsy, isnt that a macho word?
There's no reason why a shotgun zone read run is worse on the goal line than on the 50. Inside the 5 offense is more difficult because passing is more difficult due to the lack of space to cover and defenses can more easily play the run strong and stay in their zones in the passing game. The advantage of shotgun to me seems to be the ability of the QB to read the defense pre-snap. Sprint out plays with an athletic QB are also extremely effective in short yardage situations and those can be run from shotgun more effectively. When you pack in a bunch of huge dudes tight, the defense does the same and you often end up with no numbers advantage at the point of attack. Play action from those sets can be effective though, but the chances of a negative play go up too.
QB run threat completely swings the pendulum toward shotgun for me, but you see Brady and Manning in shotgun on the goal line sometimes too (but it doesn't signal that they are going to pass, they often audible to inside zone run plays or draws).
And there's obviously still a misconception that you can't run Power O or counter trey or dives from the spread despite all the Chris Brown and Ross Fulton articles linked and posted on here! That is Urban's offense, power from a spread set with pulling guards and H-backs opening up holes at the point of attack but with the QB run threat creating another gap issue for the defense...
I think with offenses now adays, shotgun in the spread offense is better. Allows the QB to have better reads, more options and less defenders in front of them. Its a crap shoot either offensive play in the red zone. If you are worried about an INT, I have seen fumbles on the goalline power I. I think it also depends on time of the game too. If you are short on the clock, passing will kill the clock where as a running play that is unsuccessful will eat up time.
I didn't watch the ASU game so I don't know what they did in the red zone to decide to go out of shotgun, but either way its going to be nerve racking! I always have hated inside the 5. Limited space and more advantage to the defense despite how many options the offense has. The difference between this year and last year was that Herman at least knows how to trick a defense. If they lined up in I and did a number of things, that works for me. But when Bollman lined up in DAVE and you knew he was going to use DAVE, that was nerve racking. That was pissing me off! Especially when we knew Pryor could do a rollout, or Braxton has the ability to do this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brFZRTSyTEo
Right over the top!
@squirrel, yea, i agree. always nerve racking no matter what formation.
@DSK I am not sure if you mean that I have the misconception that the spread cannot amount to power run, or if just in general. I know that shotgun spread can do some good power runs, and mentioning ross' articles is a perfect example. but just starting in the shotgun is nerve racking. I guess because of what is associated with shotgun. Pass (i know that we are able to run just as much as pass). I am just more comfortable in lining up in a power formation, not lining up in shotgun and then running a power run play. you know? but as was stated before, it is nerve racking when the ball is always on the goalline.
Shotgun on the goal line is fine with me simply because we don't have an incompetent offensive coordinator anymore so we don't always run the same play over and over and over.
IMO, the shotgun formation puts alot of pressure on the defensive ends. I also believe it also can be used to open up the tight end as we saw w/ the 2pt. conversion.
I love Shotgun formation anywhere. Spreads the field more and gives Miller a better opportunity to read and see things better.
@dubjay
In general I think it is easier to run from shotgun (particularly in a spread-to-run scheme) than it is to pass from a jumbo set from under center. Personnel plus launch point plus reading defense pre-snap give the advantage to shotgun in general. Having the ability to go under center with a jumbo look can be good to mix it up but the shotgun has clear advantages which explains why it is used the majority of the time across college and NFL now.
As long as you get a hat on a hat with your scheme and skilled blocking, you can run power or zone from almost any set, and shotgun has much more flexibility.
The coolest thing for me about Urban's strategy is having the hybrid players for blocking purposes. When I say that I'm not talking about a Percy Harvin role for Hall or Philly but instead having a Stoneburner as a WR/TE/H and Boren as a TE/H/FB where they can line up a lot of different spots and completely seal off blocks that can spring big runs but they also can catch the ball as outlet receivers from any of those looks. If we have Stoneburner/Hyde/Boren in the game they can line up in 4-5 wide or in I formation or pistol and be effective in each with power runs and passing. Example is Braxton's huge run on the triple option vs. UCF when Stoneburner owned the OLB or nickel guy on him creating a huge lane for Braxton to the outside. That can be more effective than having Stoney try to seal a DE as a traditional tight end.