Wanted to get some additional thoughts from you guys. Last week, Storm Klein started over Curtis Grant in the middle, but the defense actually looked worse (IMO) at stopping the run, tackling, and gap assignments. Obviously, I'm not saying Klein is responsible for this, but the MLB is supposed to be the QB of the D. Between the two, I prefer having Grant in there as Klein has never shown anything special over the last 3 years. Grant has superior athleticism and letting him learn on the field during a year when we aren't bowl eligible is fine with me, even if it includes growing pains. Do you guys think we see Grant or Klein more this week?
As a secondary question, Crowell was previously at MLB in the spring, but is now at WLB. If Grant and Klein continue to struggle, do we see him get moved back? The kid is a freak athlete as evidenced by his SPARQ performances in high school.
As Meyer said earlier this year, if Curtis Grant doesn't step up and become the guys he's supposed to be, we're in trouble (paraphrased).
"I'm One Bad Buckeye, and I approve this message."
I say we place Grant in and see how he performs this year. There is literally nothing to gain from playing Klein over Grant right now. Neither has been stellar at Mike so far. I love how people get so down on Grant when this is literally his first year starting and MLB is by far the hardest position to play on defense. Grant has missed nowhere near the amount of tackles Shazier has, yet no one harps on Shazier like they do Grant, although this could be due to their differences in playing time. Anyway play Grant, he really hasn't seemed that bad to me, and other than pulling a Kurt Coleman and somehow letting go of the RB in the Cal game, he really hasn't had a screw up that led to a big play.
The reason Grant has missed less tackles is because he is usually out of position. He seems lost out there and is the reason that Klein is replacing him at the moment.
"if irony were made of strawberries, we' d all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."
Some have harped on Shazier for his misses, but he's also our leading tackler. Grant, unfortunately, has been pretty invisible so far. I certainly hope the light bulb goes off in his head very soon...
William, Rolle and JL seemed to do just fine their first year starting at MLB. I think the kid was just too hyped up to live up to expectations..does that mean he can't be a solid starter? No. Is he going to be as good as they predicted him to be in all the recruiting sites? Probably not. Still to early to tell though.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Have to put your money where your mouth is by playing the best talent. Needs to make a stand.
Rolle was a junior when he first started. With Laurinaitis the position clearly just came easily to him. I'm not saying Grant hasn't had his short-comings, but the fact that so many people have written him off is just laughable. Yes he was compared to Ray Lewis coming out of high school, but how is he responsible for those that hyped him up? Just pointing out the hypocrisy of hyping someone up, and that when they don't meet your expectations it's suddenly their fault.
I don't think the light has ever truly gone on for Klein either. He's out of position almost as much and is terrible in coverage.
I understand that, but If Urban put all that stock and confidence in him pre season and Storm Klein went out there and started last week after Storms underwhelming 2011 season and off season drama..that doesn't look to good for Curtis.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
why not put MR Simon or wildman Williams @ MLB
BuckeyeJason, you do not sound like a jerk, Coach Fick stated after summer practices that Mr. Simon could even play MLB. That is why I even mention it, when thinking about it I thought why not Williams, Nate does play with reckless abandon. Heck, I do not even know Nates position, just venting about MLB position. Adolphus Washington and or Noah Spence might fill in adequetly for Williams or Mr. Simon on D-line.
Storm has the athleticism of a MAC linebacker. There's no value to him being in position to make a play if he lacks the athleticism to actually make the play once in position. Grant might never validate the #2 ranking he possessed, but there's more value long term to the team in getting him quality reps. I expect him to make some good plays on Bell out of the MIKE position this week; they will be running right at him and he has the size and strength to stand Bell up one-on-one.
Not every player clicks right away. Doesn't mean you give up on them. If he has the raw physical skills but just isnt there mentally then it is a question of if you believe more reps helps or you believe he is so lost that being out there actually hurts his development.
I dont have a problem with the staff starting Klein if they feel Grant is best served by a little more time learning in practice.
Not saying that's what is happening, just saying there can be good reasons for not just throwing someone in the deep end of the pool. I also think it is too early to give up on Grant.
Heck, if all he does is make one great play in his college career but it is a game winning interception in the last game of his career (i.e. The Game) then that's fine with me. You can develop right up to that last play.
I don't want to sound like a jerk..but please ADL and everyone else, stop saying the coaches should put Simon or Williiams at Mike. Pretty please!
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
^This
I love Williams and Simon. LOVE THEM! But they would both completely blow at MLB. Different skillset entirely.
Grant was by FAR the worst player on the field two weeks ago, which is why he didn't play this past weekend. It wasn't just being out of position or missing assignments, he was the worst tackler on a field of bad tacklers. He has offerend nothing so far. Sure, i'd like to have him get experience so maybe he can be the starter of the future, but not at the expense of Bell running down our throats the entire game. Last week Klein wasn't exactly good, but Grant is just too huge a liability at this point. With Klein's experience I absolutely rather have him on the field against MSU than Grant.
Yeah, Simon and Williams isn't a good idea at MLB. Put Hankins at MLB. Now we're talkin'!
It wouldn't make sense to put a solid DE at Mike LB. That kind of switch just doesn't happen (unless that player previously played LB). Both these guys are DEs and yes I know they've had Williams at OLB at times. Still....it won't work. Storm will do OK and that's better than Grant at the moment. I can see Grant transfering if he doesn't get his stuff together and play like a 5 star Mike LB (or Mike Mitchell will take his place next year provided he chooses OSU in Nov. or Dec.).
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
I say try Camren Williams at the MLB spot because obviously Grant and Klein are not getting the job done so why not try something different to see what will happen at this point we don't have nothing to lose because neither of the two sare on the field much
Next season either Grant, Crowell, Williams or Roberts is going to have to start at MLB..better figure out who it is soon.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
This game is going to be a put-up or shut-up game for Grant. A more traditional offense that will offer Grant a chance to be on the field for extended series, maybe this is where he puts it all together. We hope.
2014 guys ought to be licking their chops at a chance to start early (McMillan)
Not sure everyone realizes that we have played Nickel like 80-90% of the time and there hasn't been a middle linebacker on the field with that personnel. Makes it hard to really evaluate that position. But we will likely be in base vs. MSU most of the game since I believe they run out of the I or with multiple tight ends a lot.
I don't think he's (Grant) had enough time. They've been playing the STAR a lot, from what I've noticed.
BuckeyeJason: on multiple occasions, you've suggested that since a kid had played part-time in a handful of games and didn't immediately flash promise during those initial opportunities, he probably won't turn out to be a stud at the collegiate level. Well, that's usually a good baromoter, but not always.
Which is why you're always careful to add that "it's still too early to tell" for sure. As you know, some elite players were kinda late bloomers that didn't really take off until their junior or senior seasons of college ball (or not until they reached the NFL). Other kids flashed awesome potential right away, then never reached such heights again (Ken-Yon Rambo?).
This week will be the defining moment, MSU plays to grants strengths
Storm Klein has already reached his mediocre top end. We have nothing to lose in going with Curtis Grant or even one of the talented freshman.
Nothing to lose huh? Have you been watching Grant play? Obviously he is going to have every opportunity to show that he can handle the gig, but being benched in favor of Storm speaks for itself.
vacuuming sucks
Yes Fido you are right. He could boom now or boom later..or he could just be a bust. I want to see him have an equal opportunity to shine though..which i don't think he's had yet.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the MLB that goes off when the STAR comes in. They leave the two best LBs out there period. Whether is SLB, MLB, or WLB depends on the players and we just don't have a MLB better than Shazier or Sabino right now. Grant's athleticism is the key to me. Both him and Klein miss tackles and get out of position, but at least Grant has upside going forward.
I say go with Klein. It seems settled that MsU is going to line up and bang Bell. Klein can barely get to the corners, but alot of the action should be in his range. My fingers are crossed that the D line gets the majority of the stops.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
I wish I had an answer for why we have had two five stars who "mentally" cant grasp the defense... Sabino and now Grant. I think we let Grant figure things out and get reps maybe he comes out of his shell and it all clicks at some point this season.
Northland Grad 2006
All City 03/04/05 Baseball
All City 04/05 Football
D 2 Saginaw Valley State University.
Jadams,
You are correct, generally the two best LB's stay on the field when the star comes in..regardless of it being Mike, Sam or Will. The two best in coverage are usually in. Rolle and JL always stayed out there in Nickel.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
At some point do we need to start questioning the coaching? Being out of position and not grasping the defensive scheme sounds like they are not being taught correctly. None of us are at practice everyday so we probably will never know. But I can recall last year when one certain coach just seemed to be in way over his head. And he is responsible for the lb's this year. How much was he really leaning on Heacock?
Has there been an updated depth chart to see if Klein is listed as the #1?
Regardless, with all of the running that MSU will be doing, we'll find out this Saturday. Trial by fire!
I can tell you this. Fickell has coached the LB's for quite a few years now and taught guys like Hawk, Carp, JL, Grant, Freeman, Rolle, Homan and they all seemed to be very fundamentally sound LB's. I will not question Fickells ability to coach up LB's..as his track record speaks for itself in that category.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
I think about the word "linebacker" and certain words come to mind. Wreckless abandon, relentless pursuit, hostility, violent collision, fearless play. You can't coach it.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
Jason. That's why I asked how much he leaned on Heacock. We've had great linebacker play for years and all of a sudden they are not playing well. Could it be that it was the combination of Fick and Heacock that made the lb play great?
gotta have lateral speed & quickness...whichever LB has the best combo. of that - put him in there...Andy Katzenmoyer had ridiculous lateral speed
"You win with people." - Woody Hayes
Cajun, the middle linebacker is the qb of the defense. So with your logic, speed, great arm strength, and leadership would make a quarterback without coaching? It could be that our current stock of lb's are not coach able. Maybe they just are not as talented. I don't know. Just seems funny that all of a sudden they are the weak point of the d after so many years.
Great linebackers have great instincts. I've got a crisp $100 and here's a hammer. That's the closest comparision I could think of for a QB & LB. Spielman wasn't a great linebacker because he had great coaches. He had a great desire to play that position. He wasn't the biggest and wasn't the fastest. He wanted to hit people, which is not a normal reaction for most people. You can coach tackling, but you can't give people the desire to do it. That's all I was saying, outside of Shazier, I don't see the desire. Speed, arm strength, and leadership would make a great outfielder also.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
It's not as much the grasp of the defense as it is making the defense become instinct. Hawk didn't have to think about what his responsibility was, his body just reacted. That's what hasn't happened yet for Grant. He is thinking too much and ends up out of position. If the light doesn't immediately come on for a player, the best way to make it come on is repetition and experience.
I don't think the MLB is getting off the lineman blocks very well. Like Cajun said, it's a natural thing they either have or don't. Coaches coach the player what to look for and where to be, but if the 'backer doesn't read it fast enough or isn't physical enough to get off the block, they won't make the play.
High school football is one thing. In college, the OL is bigger and much faster at getting to the LBers to make a block. A kid may be a great high school linebacker, but the game speeds up a whole lot in CFB, OL are up in LB's faces twice as fast.......the same jump from CFB to the NFL (the reason a CFB team wouldn't beat an NFL team....ever). Alot of great college LBers don't make the NFL.
Have to have physical tools and a desire to hit someone harder than they may hit you, and be able to do it at the speed that the confrontation is going to take place.
OSU's bend don't break philosophy is struggling because of soft DB coverage, and the struggles are being compounded due to LBers who are not getting off blocks. I thought Sabino played much better vs UAB.
Great point cajun. I agree with you on desire, but there still is coaching involved. Why are some coaches more successful than others? Recruiting? Yep. Luck? Probably. Getting the most out of your players? Absolutely. You still have to coach your players how to play the game according to the scheme that you have developed. We could have 11 Chris Spielmans on the field with all the fire and desire in the world. They would probably be pretty decent but until they are coached, they would not be great.
I will point out that Bruschi was a DE all through college and switched to MLB in the pros. i wouldn't mind giving Crowell a look at all. He's fast as hell and can't be much worse than we've seen so far. And toss Klein to the bench. No value in playing him.
I agree, Sabino's intensity level was a bit higher last week. He played a lot faster. NCBUCK, my nephew is a redshirt sophomore QB at the U. He played for Miramar in Broward. I went to a few games and the speed was amazing for high school football. Biggest adjustment in college, just like JOHNBLAIR said, speed of the game.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
Just for laughs google Katzenmoyer's hit on Corby Jones. That's not coaching. He had to learn that from the Animal Channel, because it reminds me of a mountain lion jumping on a rabbit.
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
Some others have said this but I agree, I think this will be a big week for Grant.
Klein can not tackle. He gets run over once the back gets past the line. Bell will truck him more often than not this weekend. Heck, even Klein's girlfriend gained 4 yards after he tackled her. :o)
Too Soon?
Cajun - the big Kat was a bad bad dude. That's a filthy nasty de-cleating hit. Thanks for the advice.
Don't you think the coaching staff has thought of all these possibilities. If they had a better alternative they would be using it. The coaches see these players everyday. We are 4-0 and as usual some people just aren't happy and do not trust the coaches. I do trust them.
shortbus20
Part of the reason why the LBs are getting eaten up by the OL is because they are still grasping the defense, mostly Grant. Once his reads become natural, he can stop thinking and get off those blocks, rather than thinking and getting tossed around in the process. You have to start Grant here, there's literally no point considering him and Klein are "1 and 1a" to quote Urban. If Grant turns into Sabino 2.0, I will be greatly disappointed. However, he still has plenty of time to figure things out and I hope it is this weekend.
Another thing... PLEASE PRESS THE CORNERS. I swear, after watching football all weekend, every weekend, the only two teams I see giving up 10 yards on the line of scrimmage to WRs are the Buckeyes and Browns. Why get beat giving up so much space if we're going to miss the tackle anyway? Make the QB go over the top instead of dumping it off and letting our secondary miss tackle. Even more so against this hack from MSU. Load up the box and see if we can't hit Bell in the mouth. The only reason his rushing stats are so high is the ridiculous amount of carries he's getting. Against ND (pretty good defense) and Central Michigan (no explanation needed) he was held to under 100 yards with ~20 carries. If he gets 40 carries, which might be necessary for MSU to win, it is a perfect game for the defense to learn how to tackle.
I'm not an expert by any means, but the lack of desire on defense (minus John Simon) seems to be because of the lackadaisical play calling on that side of the ball. Hopefully, we see some more intensity on D.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
i dont think big hank has had a "lack of desire" either.
mark may wins douchebag of the year... again
Ahh missed him as well. How could I forget? He's playing like a top 10 pick. If he keeps it up, there's no way he can stay and I don't blame him.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
Klein is just god awful. Point blank. There's no way of sugar-coating it. Grant might not be "ready" for the role yet, but (I say) you gotta put him in there because ANYTHING is better than Klein..
I dont think it's a lack of effort by the defense, as it is lack of execution and making plays.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
BuckeyeJason, I agree. To me, lack of execution is due to lack of effort/focus. Maybe I should have phrased that as "mental effort." While some kids aren't as good as projected, these guys are all competing at THE Ohio State University with one of the best coaching staffs in the country. They aren't some garbage high school players. They know how to play, (should) have the talent, and have been coached how to play. It's time to put all that together finally.
Don't give up... Don't ever give up.
I might get flamed for this, but oh well..I think this teams problem, mainly a lot of the players on this team is a lack of intelligence. Alot of these players on this team making the same mistakes as last year are making them this year. A lot of stupid penalties, making correct reads, angles, postioning, etc.
To sum it up, not the smartest team we've had during the last 10 years or so. I dunno..just my opinion.
Run_Fido's favorite word is strawman.
Jason, I'm lightin' the torch!! No, I don't know. Maybe your on to something. The personal fouls are definitely ignorant penalties. I would like to say that the problem is.....? I have no f*#$ing idea. I read the news, watch the games, read the posts. Shazier, Sabino, and Grant are supposed to be exciting to watch. I don't mean exciting in the way your heart races when you see a car wreck. Oh, and am I the only one that thought the girlfriend gaining 4 yards was funny?
An angry fan...rooting for an angry team...led by angry coaches
I have a hard time understanding why these guys aren't running their asses off in practices for these penalties. That's what we did in HS and it seemed to work. I realize HS football is different than College (trust me I played both and it's huge). However, why not start to make every penalty yard up by running them. It sure makes players think twice not to make mistakes during the game and even in practice situations. I could be off or wrong, but these senseless penalties, ignorant as some have called them and I agree, need to stop. It's not sound play and I was amazed that Christian Bryant wasn't pulled after his moron penalties last week. To me...that's coaching. There must be immediate and quick punishment IMO on those kinds of things. My one and only thing to question UFM...at least to this point. I realize that starters were out like Roby and Barnett...it still doesn't matter. Stupid penalties should equal sit this one or a few out to think about it. May be this is my problem... ;-)
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you."
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
Grant/ Klein are going to get an opportunity this week to prove they are a OSU caliber MLB since our nickel defense has kept them off the field. Hope they bring the juice
Was that Nate Williams playing linebacker ?
One of theses guy's need to step up and play like they know they can or e may be giving up alot of yardage all season long, don't want that, the fact is they all can but who will ?
glenn
Yes, Nate played some downs at MLB. It was mostly Klein who played though.
Yeah, didn't see Grant at all except on special teams.
We should Katz to come back and show our MLBs how to hit. I'd buy a ticket to that practice session.
I'll take Orhian Johnson in the game as a 5th DB playing near the LOS over Grant or Klein from here on out.
Our troubles at the position really make you appreciate the AJ H. and James L. players we had in the past. Curtis is still young though so hopefully he'll get things rolling.